Test Match Special - England lead 'embarrassing' Pakistan

Episode Date: September 9, 2026

Simon Mann presents reaction from Edgbaston after the first day of England's third and final Test against Pakistan.Hear from former England captains Michael Vaughan and Sir Alastair Cook, former Pakistan batter Ramiz Raja and Chief Cricket Commentator Jonathan Agnew after a disappointing display from Pakistan which left them trailing England at the end of the day. Hear from Josh Tongue who took four wickets on the first day in Birmingham.Plus, former Pakistan coach Jason Gillespie speaks to Jonathan Agnew about the situation Pakistan cricket currently finds itself in.

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with a subscription to BBC Podcasts Premium on Apple Podcasts. You can also enjoy a range of our podcasts ad free with an Amazon music subscription. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. So close the first day of the third test. England on top.

Familiar story, but for an hour after tea we had a genuine contest with 21-year-old pace bowler Raza Ulla, impressing on his day. He had root. LBW for eight with his fourth ball in test cricket. So route eight out of his last 10 dismissals in test cricket, LBW. Then the recovery, sentry partnership between Gay and Brooke. Gay out for 60 and Brooke at the close, 52 not out.

This after Pakistan were dismissed for 133. Put into bat this morning, the lights were on. It was overcast and England's bowl has wreaked havoc. Again, Pakistan subsiding their best partner. partnership was 26 for the last wicket between Mohammed Abbas and Mohammed Ali. Four for Josh Tang, three for Joffr Archer and Olli Robinson continuing this excellent summer, three for 15 from his 11 overs. Rames is here, Michael Vaughan is here, Jonathan Agnew is here.

Michael, what caught your eye today? Was it that spell from Raza Ulla? Yeah, I mean, Pakistan, I've had no glimmer of hope in the series so far, but the young quick today, It's just given the Pakistan fans, just something. I mean, to get Jeru out in your first test over, to bowl quickly, the spell that he's just delivered down the back end of the day was tremendous. He could easily have had two or three more with the ball that flipped past the outside edge on a couple of occasions. But, you know, he's the real kind of star for Pakistan today.

But, you know, you can't go far away from the batting again from Pakistan, which has continued throughout the whole series. They just don't look like they've got any confidence. They're against an England bowling attack that is full of confidence. These balls seem to be doing a little bit more than we've seen in previous seasons.

And it's really that Pakistan batting line that's a shot in confidence. England are kind of realising that and they're being ruthless and that's a good sign for the England team. I like the fact that the battles were challenged. Mohammed Abbas, that last spell there. That last 20 minutes actually I watched down

and thought, Harry Brooke, what's he going to do? How's he going to play? Well, he went against his grain. He played the situation how he should be playing to make sure he's there tomorrow morning. And that was a sign for me that this England test team has changed already. Under Joe Root and Stephen Fleming,

there was definitely a movement in the way that Harry Brooke played that last 20 minutes. In the past, he'll have been dancing down, playing a few tricks and flicks. Well, you could clearly see against a world-class bowler, it was like, over my dead body, am I going to get out?

He was playing and missing. It was awkward. He was losing his balance, but he's there tomorrow morning. And that's what you have to do in test match cricket for your team to make sure the opposition don't have what they want tomorrow morning, which would have been Harry Brook out tonight.

Now they know that Harry Brooks arriving tomorrow morning by just showing a bit of mental toughness in that last 25 minutes. Ramese England's day quite clearly. Were you heartened by what you saw from Pakistan with the ball today, not so much with the bat, but with the ball? Yeah, I mean, with the bat is the same problem, actually. So you've got to give some runs for the bowlers to bowl at. And so that didn't happen once again.

Bowling was obviously much better, Razaullah from nowhere we've produced another gem let's hope that he maintains his fitness because there have been so many fast bowlers they've come through the ranks at times from nowhere have done well for a season

and then they've subsided so there's a lot to like about his bowling, his spirit you know that slinging action I think he can bowl a good reverse bowling spill as well and he's got pace and a lot to like about

what he delivered today It's easy to say, oh, where's he been, but he's only 21, and he's only played eight first-class matches. I mean, that's the process that, you know, we have followed generally. You know, the structure doesn't always provide you with a lot of hope, but from nowhere, because it's such a vast area, Pakistan. And so you get cricket being played in Balochistan, in... And Chhaber Pactunha, elsewhere also, that, you know, one would find his way through, muscle his way through the...

the process and produce something like this. And so we've been lucky. But I think you've got to call it selection for power, really, to not include somebody like him. Because he's been in the circuit for a year at least. He's played a lot of white ball cricket. But to not nominate him for England tour considering that it was always going to be a one-dimensional,

Mohammed Abbas, medium-paced, lead bowling attack. It was just madness, I think. Yeah, I think that's the point, isn't it? He was a point of different. Well, that for me is Pakistan cricket. You know, for many generations, they've always been able to produce a player or a bowling, particularly from nowhere.

And he's just little put the day. Even though Pakistan have had the worst of the day, even than are well on top, you know, we're talking positive, probably for the first time in the series about Pakistan cricket because that is what we expect from Pakistan. A bit of spirit, a bit of fire, you know, a little bit of aggression, a bit of pace.

Even when he batted when he walked out of the back, when he tried to launch a couple out of the bat. Birmingham but that is what we've come accustomed to with Pakistan cricket so it was great to see but you know England lead by 23 four wickets down and Harry Brooks still out there so Pakistan are chasing the game yeah Razahullah he tried to whack two in the last over before lunch and that was the the remarkable thing what what caught your eye Jonathan well that obviously I mean I just love watching young fast bowlers I remember first time I saw Shurbukta in Sharjah covering some sort

nondescript one-day tournament I think it was. But wow, what is this? Taring in and bowling is so fast, you know. And it just captures you, doesn't it? I mean, you remember when you do see a young fast bowler for the first time. Who knows what will happen to Razoola? You know, he's 21 years old.

Goodness knows. Yeah, lots can go wrong, can't it? Of course. Of course. But people are saying, not for goodness sake, stop being ridiculous. But there's lots of, I've thought about the way he's action. That is Waka. And it doesn't run as far as Waka.

But I'm talking about the vital bit, where he lets the ball go and the pace that he bowls. You know, 90, 91 miles an hour, that's Waka Yunus. And where he lets the ball go, that's that slingy sort of delivery, which so many successful Pakistan reverse swing bowlers have had, but particularly Waka. He comes from that low trajectory, which makes a handful, you know, a handful with a new ball, but particularly a handful with the old ball with a reverse swing. And I'm not saying he's the next Waka Yunus, that's ridiculous. But if people are trying to close their eyes and imagine what we've seen today, we've seen a young man who actually has got a lot of what Waka Yunis brought to cricket and to Pakistan fast bowling.

And that has been lacking in love with Ramiz. Why, he wasn't picked in the first place? If they'd known of his existence, it seems extraordinary. We just watched some handy trundling over the last month. Look what happens when he gets someone like that in. And he's got character and confidence. He's bowling at Joe Root. You know, if you think he might.

If you were him, if you were Emilio Gay or somebody, you know, bowling at Joe Root in your first over, first three balls are bang on the money. Absolutely bang on, full, straight. Roots hurried as he defends them. Fourth ball, bang, elbow, and gone. It was a really dramatic intro, and let's hope it continues. He builds on it. Yeah, and we did have a genuine contest, didn't we, for half an hour, three-course an hour?

You got broke first ball. That was a quick ball, hurried him. Inside edge pad, a ball rolled away into the leg side. know where it had gone. And he made things happen. There's almost a runout when he was bowling. All that sort of stuff happens when he got genuine pace bowling. The rats wouldn't get a bit flustered. Is the Waka Yunus comparison a fair one? I mean, yeah. I mean, there's a lot to like about his slinging action. And I just hope that, you know, he produces that reverse swing spell also, maybe in suitable conditions back home in Asia. But yeah, I mean, he's got the

speed. It's got that natural length, which is up to the batsman. He doesn't have a lethal bouncer. It's not, I mean, you know, with that slinging action, it's not going to get their awkward bounce. So his best bet is to bowl within the stumps and look to bowl that joker or that reverse swing, you know, if the ball gets older, I think we'll see another great spell from him. Yeah. Well, it's something to encourage Pakistan anyway, because it's been slim picking so far on this tour. What about Joe Root, Michael? Another LBW. Well, I watched him against Mohammed Abbas with the keeper stood up and he was certainly bathe more on the leg side to kind of

nullify that LBW and he played nice against Mohammed Abbas so he's overcome the keeper stood up probably he hasn't batted for a long period of time but it looked to me like his technical side was fine for that he went back to I guess his more normal kind of manoeuvre onto like middle and off

stump to the young quick and it did for him you know it's been a kind of a common trend throughout the summer with Joe's hedges going over to the offside he kind of pushes his bat just out and it just clips that pad. That was pace that did him today. I think he got shocked in that first.

Look, we'd never seen him. Joe's never seen him. All of a sudden, he's facing this young quick with a different action. And it just stood for him. I wouldn't be too concerned about that because, you know, I think from what I saw with the keeper stood up,

the technical side of Joe looked a little bit better. So even though he didn't get a number today, I'm confident that he's worked on that keeper stood up tactic and the technical side of that and he looked a little bit better with that today. Alistair is here as well.

Alastair is here as well. Alastair, what about that assessment there from Michael about Joe Roots batting? The sort of technical side of it really, the problem he's had this summer of getting out LBW consistently. Yeah, I mean, who are we to actually comment too much on his technique in terms of what he delivers?

But just... Well, you are England's second leading run scorer. Well, he stayed leg side of it, which I, a little bit more leg side of the ball. Because he has a little spot and everyone has little things in their technique where that ball is that perfect spot hits him on the pad. Because the keeper came up that was then hitting in line and then hitting leg stump. For most of his career he's been just outside the crease so then it hits him when it

does hit him in line because it's got further to travel at the exact same spot it goes down leg side. So he's having to have to fight a little bit of a technique, a slight change of a technique thing. So we stay leg side. The problem when you stay leg side of the ball is your mind and instantly thinks you've got to push for the ball a little bit towards a the offside because it's a bit further away from you. Look at his first couple of balls for a bass today. He fiddled, I think I was on air with you, and he fiddled at a tour out of the offside

because he's not quite sure of his alignment and where his off stump is, because it feels a long way away from him. Then when you're standing there, and you think the ball's going to be two or three inches away from further away, your head instantly then goes a little bit that way. You're left.

Towards the offside. Towards the offside, sorry. And then you're left that then instantly keeps on going that way. So as much as he's trying to, practice staying with his left foot, not going too far across, you instantly are going that way. So for me, I wasn't sure he absolutely has nailed that. I would like him if I had a technical session with him to do. And when you do a technical thing, there's always a bit of a, you gain one thing and what else then do you lose? And you're trying to always balance that as a

batsman. So I would like to see him open his shoulders up a little bit, his left shoulder. and therefore when you keep your left shoulder out, you then only turn it when the ball goes outside of stumb. The minute, because he's quite closed off with his top shoulder, he then instantly turns every time because he's shut off, he turns his left shoulder into the ball, therefore that pushes his head that way. So I would like to see our greatest batsman,

and it might not work for him to see what happens if he just moves his left shoulder a little bit out the way, a little bit more leg side, that will open himself up a little bit to allow that backed access to come to the ball there and therefore that will keep his left foot outside. The problem about doing that is that will forego a little bit of another bit of the game,

which is he scores so many of his runs through the offside behind point, in front of point and behind point. And when you do that, then you're hitting the ball straighter. He might not score it. He might feel as like you're not scoring from his super strength,

which is through the offside. So as a batter, you go through this kind of period of like, is it worth changing for it? At the minute you're saying we've been LBW 8 out of 9, do you say this is just conditions this summer, the ball, him in a little bit of different rhythm, or do you think, no, this is an issue I need to go and address? Then you go and work at it.

If you're thinking about it and in the middle, that's when the problem starts to occur because you do all the searching and then you get to a point where, why don't just sit and watch the ball and then you find your rhythm and flow again? You think, why do I bother doing the technical stuff? He's got 14,000 test runs as well.

So that's kind of the mental cycle he will be going through. and he might also, but he might see something in his technique thinking, well, this is what I want to do. And this is what's worked for me in the past of doing it. So this is where not one size fits all for a batsman and you then have to work out what works you and trust your instinct, whether that's working with Trez or a coach he has from Sheffield. If he was asking me, that's what I would say to him. Well, that's expertly summed up. But he might not work.

Yeah. So if he does go away and try to work on the things you were suggesting, how long does that, take to work through? Well, it takes a time for it to become normal. That's the problem. For a guy who's played so much cricket, you know, for it to become, feel natural. I don't think this will ever feel perfectly natural to him

because he's done so much of his career the same way. And, you know, he's probably the only person, or I can see it technique wise, he hasn't, he's just tinkered and never really evolved too. It's the same Joe Root I remember watching. It feels like I'm watching. He might've changed his hands for a little bit. It's all about him creating.

rhythm for him at the crease. So the strange thing is the technique stuff when you look at it, when you're slightly out of form and not scoring runs, feels exaggerated what it is. You put Joe Root then batting when he's at his best. He probably does exactly the same movements that we've just, I've just picked up on, but he's found a way of getting through it and then you get to 20, 30, and then the technique becomes oblivious. So I hope I'm trying to explain what a battle will then go through with the hours and hours of thinking about what he should do. And then you, Just because you fix one thing, it doesn't mean you fix everything, it might create another problem,

and you're always trying to balance yourself through that. It's incredible, isn't it, what this game does to you, Jonathan? Well, it is, and when you look at it in simple terms, I can think back in the day of some tabloid writers who were saying, he's missed eight straight balls. What's wrong with him? You know, you can put it down in those simple terms, can't you? Why is he missing straight balls?

Although there is a common thread to most of them. Most of them just cut back a bit. And that's what's doing him. rather than just suggesting that his eyes have gone, which you might have done in the old days, or some bowlers might be saying, go and get yourself some glasses in a bit of a quiet sledge. It is a pattern.

It is a pattern, and his head is just on that side. It has just gone over there, and that ball nips back, and he is just, you know, in my very rudimentary batting terms, as a bowler. I mean, as a bowler now, you'd be running up and bowling, you're bowling, you know, knit back as at him.

You would. With the keeper standing up, even you, Jonathan. Even I possibly would agree to the keeper standing up. Because it does make a huge difference, doesn't it? And it has been quite a dramatic impact on his batting to have the keeper standing up because of the DRS, because of the depth of these now having to bat. So all of those, is there so many things that are coming into it? And we're also seeing now the modern game in the last two or three years is really pushed on the fact that the knit backer is better than the swing away. Yeah, absolutely.

Because you swing away to a batsman and it takes out two dispensers. missiles. You might buy the perfect ball, but you can only get him nicked off. You might not nick it anyway. You might not nick it, you might play a miss. And I think Stuart Broad mentioned this somewhere recently as well. Everybody is suddenly coming to see the light of the last couple of years that the knit backer, if you miss it on the inside, you're bringing two players in and those bowlers now just constantly doing it. Not just Joe Root to every batter in general, the knit backer, whether it's a left

hand around the wicket, angling in or the right hand, it's the knit backer has come. It's so in vogue at the moment. Well, we talked about Joe Root. We really should talk about Emilio Gay, who battled away for 60 today, inside edge onto his back leg, onto the stumps. He finds some odd ways to get out. One way he's going to be out in Tuscary if he keeps on going, he's run out because he just dabbs his bat.

Yeah, rather than slides it in. But what about Emilio Gay? I love Simon. He gets very angry club cricketer here, which is quite right, though. I think on this one, you should... The basic, isn't it? If he'd have got run out like that, it's just a waste of a wicket. I liked him today.

You know, he's... There's always an element of luck, isn't it? when you make your debut and one of the conditions you faced. And we have to be fair to Amelia here. He's had some really tough conditions. Two pitchers at Lords, which would, you know, I don't know what the actual official rating are, but we'll say there were minefields.

A couple other decentish wickets. But in general, his test matches have been on pitches with a nip. So it's become, it hasn't been an easy, easy start. I think he's showing glimpses of this, that certainly if you're watching from a far like today in particular, His defensive game looks good, plays the ball late, looks organized, he looks like a test player. We saw the value of pace today, didn't we? On a pitch, once he'd done all the hard work, the value of the captain throwing a ball, the ball on 90 mile an hour.

We've been talking about keepers up, keepers up, yes, he can, obviously initially. But then today, keeper is up, he's back in nice, he had his nice rhythm, played against 80 mile now. And suddenly a guy comes in 90 mile an hour disrupts his foot movement. And today he played the shot, which he will look back on probably with so much anger, getting 60 today than he has done it because there was an opportunity today yes there's no there's always opportunities but he's done all the hard work he's in you're in after three hours he played really nicely and you'll sit there today saying yes I did play nicely and you have to always focus out as a player but deep

down that that frustration today of getting out like he did will eat away of him but he's done enough for me to take him to South Africa to continue that progress of a player where the pitches might be slightly easier to bat on and and he should open the interesting I mean I was going to ask a quick question actually because he is a very off side player isn't he that's where it does score most of his runs and I wonder if being left-handed that could be

an issue with new new ball or not well in general opening bats from 10 to score through the leg side not many in history succeed all the way with that being covered drive the best shot however if you take gays

innings and what I've seen him he's not hunting for that drive too often he is actually waits for it to come into there. He scores the backs of the off side as well. And as his innings evolved today, he scored a couple of a bass. He scores through the leg side and time and through midwickets. So he does have this all round game in terms of he can, he's not just limited to the offside. You know, you just get to the stage when you, when you're starting your career, you played seven games or six games as he probably got the end here without that big score. That starts us talking. It starts the talking in your mind. It starts talking to selectors mind. There's

We can't hide away from it, but if you're looking at a player, you're not looking at a funky technique, you're looking at a, there's a lot of things you can like about him. For me, he's on that line. He teets on that line, and over the next three or four games,

he either gets that score and he goes again or he doesn't get the score and he wasn't quite good enough. It's down to him really. But there's enough for me to look at that and go, yes, we'll go a game with them. Okay, well, that's the batters. The bowlers set it up for England today.

They bowed Pakistan out for 133. Robinson, Archer and Tung amongst the wickets. Josh Chung, four for 42 today, and he's been speaking to Eleanor Oldroyd. Well, Josh, four wickets. You took a catch and then you get to lie down for nearly two sessions. So that's not a bad day all round.

Yeah, it was a great day. Obviously, I didn't come into the attack after they were four down, which is a nice feeling. I felt like I can be more attacking with my lines and lengths. And yeah, to bowl them out first day for 1.30 or, yeah, it was an unbelievable effort.

You got involved early on, that catch that you took off Joffra, early doors to get rid of a Zan was a nice catch. Yeah, I don't you got the credit for that really. No, the lads were all over me really. I think I sort of picked it up fairly early. I knew I had to dive forward on those hard weekends. Yeah, but your knees are okay though. Knees are okay, through scratches, but all good. And you had three out bold as well, including taking the actually literally the top off off stump on a couple of occasions.

Does that feel nice when you see bits of the stuff? stumps flying? Yeah, it's always nice to see the stumps, even the top of the stumps going or the whole stump going. But that's what I want to try and do for this team, try and keep the stumps in play as much as I can. And that's how we're going to get the wickets. Which wicket satisfied you most? I noticed that Saad Shakil gave you a little nod of acknowledgement, didn't he, when you got him out? Yeah, I'd say probably that one. He's an unbelievable batter. And he was sort of going a bit hard at us as well. So to get to get him out was very crucial. And as you say, Joffra Archer, Olly Robinson gave you a great start. What do you make of the way that you're operating as a unit now? Yeah,

it's unbelievable. We compliment each other really well. I think how we start with the new ball is unbelievable. And like I said, to get them four down before me and Gus coming on is a really nice feeling and long made that to continue. And we've mentioned that that Ollie and Jopha are taking a lot of wickets as well. I mean, you've got 17 at 12 in this series. so far. Gus hasn't had the success maybe that the rest of you have had, but do you still feel like you're working as a unit? Yeah, we're working really well as a unit. I think Gus has been very unfortunate the past couple of tests. A lot on playing misses and another day he could have picked a hat full of wickets as well. But yeah, it's a unbelievable attack to be a part of. What's gone so well

for you, do you think, the fact that you've you've taken those wickets and so cheaply as well? I'm not too sure to be honest. I think as soon as I get the ball I want to try and make a big impact into the game and to put us in a good position to win test matches for England. And I feel like with the bowling tackle we got, I feel like everyone can do that. Is there a leader in the group between the four of you? We're all leaders. I've had this question quite a few times. Who's the leader of the attack? But I feel like we're all leaders. One of the things that we try and do is communicate as well as we can to each other,

if that's on the pitch or what we need to do better. And yeah, it's a good time to be a fast bowler. Going into this test match, there are a lot of changes. in the Pakistan team, three debutants in this lineup as well. How much did you know about what kind of a team you were going to be coming up against today? I didn't know too much to be honest, but I always think we try and focus on ourselves, and that's going to put us in the best positions

to win test matches for England. In an ideal world, how long would you like to be resting tomorrow before you get out and get bowling again? Don't really know, to be honest. There's obviously four days left in the test match. we'd try and obviously that first hour in the morning is going to be fairly crucial for us and then we'll try and get a good lead.

And that partnership between Emilio Gay and Harry Brooke have put you well on top, haven't they? Yeah, Amelia and Brookie's batted really well there, put us in a really good position and even Loz at the back end there, obviously quite tricky under the lights. But yeah, they batted really well. It does feel like this has been a series for bowlers. Does this pitch feel as spicy as the ones that you had at Headingley? and lords or is it a bit different? It didn't look at look it to be fair

when we first rocked up to the ground. It looked a really good wicket and obviously winning the toss. Bowling first, obviously a bit of pressure on the bowlers. But I thought we cope really well as a bowling unit. Well look, enjoy your rest and well played today. Thank you very much. Cheers.

That's Josh Chung. Speaking to Eleanor Aldrey, just on just on Gus Atkinson for a moment. 10 for 168 in that New Zealand series. One for 156 in this series. perhaps just one of those things because he actually has bowed well at times. Andy Zaltzman with me for some final thoughts and some look at the stats of the day. You want to start with Ollie Robinson, who at landmark for him today. Yes, his first of his three wickets today brought up his 100th test wicket,

at which point his career average was 19.3. And very few bowlers in test history have reached the 100 wicket mark with an average below 100. most recently, Vernon Philander of South Africa who's the only one to do it in the last 30 years. The last England bowler to do it was Ian Botham back in the late 70s, and the only other England's seemer

to reach 100 wickets with an average under 20 in test cricket. It was George Lomon, medium pacer in the very early years of test cricket in the 19th century. So extraordinary numbers for him. He's taken 26 wickets, average just under 8 this summer. His opening spells this summer, which wasn't always a particular strength of his.

He'd averaged 26 in opening spells through his career. This summer he's taken 10 for 80 in his opening spells combined. So yeah, a superb performance from him once again. And it's helped inflict some frankly horrific batting stats on Pakistan. Also 14 wickets in the day. I make that the most ever on day one of an edge-baston test match. Pakistan's top five all out in single figures. That's the first time that that has ever happened to a team in the first innings of a test match in England.

And only the second time England have ever inflicted that on an opposition side when they bowled first in a test. The other was a match in Australia in the 78, 79 ashes. The fifth time, Pakistan have been bowled out for under 200. That's the first time they've had five consecutive sub 200 scores in their test history. I make it only two other sides in England. have been bowled out for under 200 in the first five innings of a series. That was the 1958 New Zealanders and the 1888 Australians. And their average score at the fall of the second wicket this series, Simon,

11 for two, which is the... Feels about right, Zoltz, feels about right, I have to say. Which is the lowest such figure ever for a team in a three-match series. England's 29 for two, which is England's fifth worst ever figure in any series of three or more matches. and they're second worst at home after the 1888 ashes. So England have been struggling, but not quite as much as Pakistan have been. And it probably didn't help when your top five's been all out in single figures. They have three players coming in on debut at 7, 8 and 9.

They're the first team to have three debutants, a visiting team in England after the first test of a series since Pakistan in 1954. One of those, however, Sean with the ball, As you mentioned earlier on Raza Ola has got Joe Rood out with his fourth ball in test cricket. The man with over 14,000 test runs another LBW 10 LBWs to Seemers in his last eight tests. He'd had just three in the previous 39. Arazzah Ulla's first spell, average ball speed 89.8 miles an hour since 2010. There's only been three quicker spells of more than two overs by visiting bowlers.

Those bowlers were Shannon Gabriel for the West Indies, Arnick Norquia, for South Africa and Dale Stain. one of the greatest fast bowlers of all time also for South Africa. So that puts in context quite how quick that was as an entry into test cricket and then picked up his second wicket in his second spell. So that was a crumb of comfort for Pakistan. But Joe Root may be his test summer of batting over. It's not guaranteed that he'll get another go. He's averaging 27 this summer.

That's his lowest average in a home test summer. And no century for him in the six tests this summer. the first time since 2019 he's not scored a century in a home summer as it stands. And yeah, so it's a curious, curious summer. But we've seen that, you know, a lot of, well, terrible battingsats from Pakistan, but England have, you know, I think root stats put in context how difficult Pakistan have found it this summer, this summer as well. Salts, thank you very much indeed.

Time for lie down. There was a lot in there. This is the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Your sales order says one thing. Your inventory says another. Your spreadsheet says, good luck. Odu brings your business together on a single platform from sales and accounting to inventory and marketing.

Visit Odo.com to book a demo. It's ODb-O.com. Get more with BBC podcasts, wherever you listen. Be the first to listen to your face. favorite shows, like evil genius, good, bad billionaire, and You're Dead to Me, with a subscription to BBC Podcasts Premium on Apple Podcasts. You can also enjoy a range of our podcasts ad-free with an Amazon music subscription. The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Well, the build-up to this game was dominated by the dramatic changes to the Pakistan squad, with seven players leaving the tour as well as changes to the head coach and bowling coach. Pakistan have had 25 different test coaches in 26 years,

including the former Australia bowler Jason Gillespie, who led the side the last time England toured Pakistan in 2025. Gillespie has been speaking with Jonathan Agnew, who asked him, given his experiences, whether he was surprised by what's been going on this week. That's a great question, to be honest. I mean, the short answer is no, because decisions will be made from above,

you know, if a result isn't what's wanted from whether it's the chairman of selectors or the PCB decisions will be made. And history has shown that you only have to go back and look. And these things happen when, you know, if a result or two doesn't go the way that the hierarchy want, that's what happens, I guess. Yes. I mean, there's always been this sort of view of Pakistan cricket. you know, from us all outside it, that it's kind of charmingly chaotic and, you know, a bit maverick, you know, that sort of thing.

But it actually, I suspect having been within it, where you can answer this yourself, perhaps it isn't quite as gentle and as kindly as that. Yeah, it's an interesting take that. I mean, look, when I was there, like, bear in mind, I wasn't there very long. You know, I was involved in five test matches and then I was asked to, because the coach moved on

and I was asked to help out with the Whiteball series in Australia because I was going back to Australia because there was no test cricket, and I was the test coach. So helped out in that series. But, you know, there just always seemed to be a lot of things going on behind the scenes and a lot of different messaging from a number of different sources. So I suppose as a coach, all you can do,

and you'll hear this from Bric coach and I've heard obviously Mike Hesse and Ashley Knopfky I think they've been put in pretty tough situations here they've just come in and, you know, they've got to focus on the players and what's in front of them. You know, there's some decisions and things have been done you know, before they've even got there. You know, as Mike said, there's some things that he's changed

and that's his prerogative as the new coach. You know, a lot of things just seem to happen and all you can do, I suppose, as a coach, is just focus on what's in front of you. And what's first and foremost in your mind always has to be the players, that their welfare, how they're going, how you can help them get better and improve

and play the best cricket they can play. And, you know, every coach will tell you that, Agass, because that is genuine at the forefront of your mind. And coaches traditionally don't have much time for the external, stuff, you know, the chaos, so to speak, because they just want to protect the players. That's what you want to do as a coach. You want to make sure that the players are backed, supported so they can go and put their

best foot forward on the field. So you want to make sure everything is in place off the field to allow them to do that. And when you have, I suppose, you know, external voices all coming in and having their opinions and thoughts and, you know, people in prominent roles outside the team, making decisions, it makes it very hard for, you know, for the consistency on the field. I've always said, Agers, you know, for consistency on the field, the best teams in my experience in our sport, the best teams and the most consistent teams are the ones that have consistency off the field that gives them the best chance to have consistency on the field.

Yeah. I presumably you kind of were aware of the issues or at least the difference, if you like, between the way that Pakistan cricket works and like Australia or England work, they clearly organised differently, presumably you knew that before you took the job. Yeah. Look, I knew it was going to be different. Look, and I make no bones about it and no apologies.

I went in with my eyes wide open. I knew that things were done differently. I accepted that and I knew that. I just saw it as a wonderful opportunity to help these. players and help the national team get better, an opportunity to be involved in test cricket and to help the players improve and get better because as a coach, that's what you're there for. You want to use, you love the game and you want to help players improve and get better, and

you want to help the team do well and, you know, and play well. So that's always at the forefront of your mind and, you know, acknowledging as well that, you know, you're going to, you know, a different environment. You know, I've been fortunate enough to coach in a lot of places around the world, Agers. And to say Pakistan was unique is an understatement. It was very different to anything that I've experienced. Look, for the most part, Agers, I can honestly say, I had a wonderful experience.

And, you know, I loved working with the players and the coaches, I was coaching with. You know, it was all fantastic. but then once these outside influences started to come in and started to basically take over, it compromises how you work with the players and how you can do your job effectively. So that's what the external influences make it hard. That's why I've always been very protective of players.

And I really feel I'm watching the game here, seeing the score at lunch here, sitting here in my lounge room in Adelaide and it's heartbreaking to see because I've worked with a number of these players and I know how hard, you know, how desperate they are to succeed and perform well for their country

and, you know, to see them battling and see them struggling, you know, knowing with all the stuff that's gone on off the field, you know, no wonder the team's battling on the field. No, of course. There is still as quite as there's a strong political link within the cricket board and the government in Pakistan,

isn't that? I mean, the chairman of PCB is the minister of the interior. I mean, is that link with politics and the running of the country and that sort of connection? Is that an issue in your experience? Oh, look, it's hard for me to speculate.

Agariz, I was only there for a very short time, but, you know, I don't know. And look, I can't compare it to, I know my experience in Australian cricket and my experience in English cricket, for instance, you know, the two instances where I've spent most of my time coaching, you know, there's been zero sort of influence from a political space. So that was a very, going to Pakistan,

that was an incredibly different experience for me. It's not for me to say whether that's right or wrong, better or worse, but as I said, you know, consistency, you know, if you want consistency on the field, you need to have consistency off the field. Yeah. Just the last one, Jason, I read that you said that you lost a lot of confidence yourself

following the Pakistan experience. How are you getting on now? I guess, yeah, look, I'll be honest. I've been very open about it. You know, I battled after that. You know, I questioned whether I wanted to ever be involved in coaching anymore, you know, because there was, you know, parts of that experience were absolutely fantastic,

we're exhilarating. And, you know, working with the players and developing those relationships with the players was an absolute highlight. But dealing with the other stuff with the external people and, you know, I found that incredibly challenging, incredibly deflating. And, yeah, I questioned whether coaching something I want to do

going forward. And I've dipped my toe back in. I went back, you know, like 18 months later, I was involved with earlier this year with the franchise in the PSL. And, you know, the franchise owners were brilliant. And, you know, it learned a lot in that experience and had a lot of fun.

And I dipped my toe back in MLC, you know, in America and things like that. So, you know, I'm still looking at those opportunities. But, you know, I'm still, I'll admit, I'm probably a little bit, still a little bit scarred from that experience. And, you know, but I'm sure time tends to sort of heal in a way. And, you know, it's something that it'll never go away. I love working with players and helping them get better.

So, and working with coaches, you know, fellow coaches. So, you know, one day if the right opportunity comes along, then, you know, I'll certainly look at it. But at the moment, I'm enjoying doing my work on the radio here in Australia and doing some tour groups and the like. So that's good fun. Well, that was Jason Gillespie. Today at the test is on BBC iPlayer,

plus you can watch highlights on the BBC Sport website and app. Look out for our other pods, including our Pakistan Top 10, and I'll look back on the tumultuous 1992 England-Pakistan series. We're back on air from 10 a.m for the highlights half hour with buildup from 1030. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Get more with BBC podcasts, wherever you listen. Be the first to listen to your favourite shows,

like evil genius, good, bad billionaire, and you're dead to me, with a subscription to BBC Podcasts Premium on Apple Podcasts. You can also enjoy a range of our podcasts, ad-free with an Amazon music subscription.