Test Match Special - England lose at Lord’s & Cummins injury concerns

Episode Date: September 5, 2025

Alison Mitchell presents reaction from Lord’s as England lose a close encounter to South Africa which seals the World Test Champions a first series win in England since 1998.Captains Harry Brook and Temba Bavuma give their thoughts on the game which came down to the last ball. Plus, former England captain Sir Alastair Cook and England World Cup winner Ebony Rainford-Brent analyse the loss.Also, Alastair, England T20 bowler Tymal Mills and Jonathan Agnew look at Australia’s bowling options as captain Pat Cummins is an injury concern for the Ashes just over two months away.

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you're getting a fair exchange rate with no extra markups. Be smart. Join the 15 million customers who choose Wise. Download the Wise app today or visit Wise.com. T's and C's and C's Apply. from BBC Radio 5 Live. Hello, I'm Alison Mitchell. Welcome to the TMS podcast, where England have been outclassed by South Africa as they lose the ODI series at Lords. Last ball around the wicket, Moussaummi,

dancing down, I was inside Edgdutt, and it goes away towards short final leg, and South Africa win the match. They win the series, but what an effort from England with the bat after the calamity of heading leet. They almost pulled. off something unbelievable set 331 by south africa they have ultimately been the better team

walloped england in leeds and now they have got themselves home to a two-nill series scoreline with one to play they win by a mere five runs to come we'll hear from sir alister cook and ebony rainford brentz as well as reaction from on the field plus we discuss pat cummins potentially missing the ashes you're listening to the team M.S podcast from BBC Radio 5 live. So South Africa win this second one day international by five runs at Lords. It means they have secured the series 2-0 with a game to come in Southampton, having had that hefty seven wicket win at Leeds.

So I don't know whether we start at the toss. We've got Sir Alistair Cook alongside me and Ebony Raymford Brent as well has joined us. Alistair, we always knew and Simon Mann was a very, very, very. very very intent on ramming home that point about the stats saying that when you come to lords the team that wins the team that bats first had won nine out of the last ten one day internationals and so it proved to be do we go back to the toss for this or given that England got so close is that sort of become a bit immaterial well I think it just adds another one on on the Simon statman the next time it will be 10 out of 11 or whatever it is I I think I on this one on these conditions I think those stats you have to put When you put next to it, you have to say why they bowled first. And they bowled first because they had a lot of rain yesterday, heavy rain this morning, heavy showers this morning, and there was a moisture.

And there was, guess what, there was movement there today. There was moving that first 10 over. And I think England bowled okay. I think they probably bowled if it would be like ultra-critical, probably half a yard too short. You know, on an absolute belting wicket, they bowled perfectly, you know, bowled that back on it hard to hit. But when it was moving,

they could have bowled a little bit more aggressive, in bold a little bit fuller. Credit to South Africa for getting through that first 10 overs because it did move and England if they got three wickets, four wickets, they take a massive step forward in the game and also you do have to put in on this stat thing just for Simon actually England got bowled out of 130 batting first only two days ago so you can see why with all those things that Harry Brooke decided to bowl first I think probably a 50 50 cool so I'm not going back to saying that the toss was the reason how much Simon would love us to be believing it was the reason England lost this game.

Well, I agree the nuts and bolts of the match before we bring Ebony in as well. So after South Africa were put into bat, well, the big partnership for them was 147 off 126 balls between Matthew Bretzky and Tristan Stubbs. Bretzky with 85 and Stubbs with 58 off 62 balls that's after Markram. It didn't get off to quite the same flyer that they had, of course, that was chasing at Headingley, but Markram's 49 off 64 and Rickleton's 35 from 33. They set a platform in 73 for the first wicket. But even lower down the order, South Africa,

built on the platform they had to pile up 330 for eight. Archer finished with four for 62, but it was a big, big total, the highest total that England had conceded in a one-day international at Lourdes. So therefore, chasing 331, they were looking at a record run chase. at Lord certainly would be the highest successful chase ever against South Africa if they were to do it.

Duckett's a very sort of unducket-esque innings from him, 14 from 33, but that was after Jamie Smith was out first ball of the innings. So England's run chase got off to the worst possible start when he inside edged Berger through to Ryan Rickleton. Duckett then followed. He was bowled by Maharaj looking to sweep. Joe Root padded really nicely for 61 off 72. And Harry Brooke, Joss Butler, Jacob Bethel was a standout innings for him. We'll talk more about him in a moment as half century coming off 28 balls, some really big lusty blows, 58 of 40 for him. There are a couple of moments where, yes, he thought actually the game is going to be done, particularly when Brooke and the Butler partnership came to an end.

But Joffra Archer kept entertaining right to the end and made all those fans who had left, thinking it would be game over at the fall of Will Jacks's wicket. and then Braden Carters, wicket, two fours and two sixes to get England to within five runs when they finished on 325 for nine. So a five-run victory for South Africa and Ebony, what really stood out for you then in this match? I think two things. I think when you win the toss and there is a little bit of movement, they would have been hoping for those wickets in that power play early on. And without that breakthrough, it meant that South Africa are on the move. I think the defining thing for me actually is that partnership between Brexki and Tristan Stubbs. I felt it just took the game away.

You know, you knew that they were on to setting a big total. Ebb's will come back to you in a moment because England captain, Harry Brooke, is with Simon Mann. Yeah, thanks very much. Alison. Well, Harry, what did he make of that? Yeah, disappointing, obviously, but I think it was a very good effort to chase that amount of runs. To get within one blow of their score was, yeah, it was an awesome effort. What did you think of a chase of 300?

131. Yeah, me and Baz spoke it halfway. We reckon they're about 10, 15 over par. But yeah, with our batting line up, this is what we set up for. We want to try and chase them big scores. And yeah, unfortunately, tonight wasn't the night. And I still think it was a very good game to watch. Yeah, it was a brilliant game to watch.

What was one of the keys, perhaps inability to get some early wickets with the new ball? Yeah, it wasn't the inability. I think we were quite unlucky at the top. We had a lot of playing misses. I can't tell you the stats. on that but yeah we were a little bit unlucky with the new ball to not get a nick or an LBW or whatever but yeah the lad stuck in there really well in the power play I thought we had a great power play without taking any wickets and yeah

it just it just didn't go our way tonight what was it like there at the end it was kind of nearly oh it might happen oh it's not going to happen what was it feeling like in the dressing room I think until the last six well six to eight overs last ten overs we were like if we if we hit if we have one big over here we're well back in it and that was almost the case the whole way through but like I said that's why we why we set the team up as it is to get to get within one blow to of that score today was was a very good effort Jacob Bethel situation in at number four today was that just to keep the left hand right hand

combination going or was that a plan at the start of the innings now it was just to keep left hand right hand going obviously they had two left arm spinners so it was just to try and unsettle them really and he bite beautifully and brought us straight back into the game because he's been a bit of focus on him isn't he but he plays so well yeah he bite beautifully I don't know what focuses on him but he played awesome and alongside rooty Joss as well it's good signs one game to go to Southampton what do you do Sunday do you did same team do you make some changes because the series has gone no no just continuity I think that's that's what breeds the best teams we haven't had a discussion

about it and I'm probably sure I'll talk to Baz about it in a day or two and we'll come up with the team but it will be very similar. Thanks very much Harry, bad luck today. Thank you. There we go, this is Harry Brooke and Timber Bovuma is joining me as well. Well, it got quite tight there at the end, Temba. How did you see that end and how do you react to your team's victory? Yeah, I think it got quite exciting for everyone watching. Yeah, I think they just kept coming, right? Obviously with the short boundary, it was always going to be tricky. and obviously guys like Josh Butler, Jacks there coming at the end

they're always well within the game so I felt we were held on nerve quite well probably let them into the game more than we should have at the end but look we'll take the victory did you think it was going to slip away there right at the end?

No no I think look I think something special was always required from one of their badders like I said with the guys that they still had that was still a possibility, but I think they just had to keep going. Yeah, so I think quietly confident, yeah. What did you think of your team's score 330?

Do you think, yeah, that's a rock-solid winning score? Yeah, look, I mean, if I look at it at the time where when Young Brevis came in, you know, speaking to Ed and I thought maybe 270, 2.70, 2.80 might be a good score. And obviously, they kept going, you know. Matthew Bredzker, again, you know, well within the runs, stubble, you know, back, back in the score as well so when we got to 3.30 I thought you know that's more than I would have that I would have taken looking at where we were earlier but obviously the wicket got better pace wasn't as as quick off the wicket and I think their bad is also a show that.

What do you think overall was the key to your victory today what did what did you feel you did really well and was the sort of defining moments of the game really or the way you played defining moments in the game look I think if I look at with the bat I mean there was a solid partnership up front between Aiden and Rickleton you know Aiden Aiden carried it through yes you would have liked him to go in to get a big score

and then a guy like Matthew Breska in the middle as well taking charge with young Stubzy and then Previs as well coming in and doing what he did you know that got us to a more than competitive score and I think with the ball looked we probably weren't at our best I think at our own admission as the bowlers. But we all stayed in there. Kesh again came in and showed why he's number one bowler.

I think the fielding was also up there as well. That's something that we want to pride ourselves again in. And I think that's also helped in terms of keeping us within the game. And one final point, because I know you've got to go off into your TV interview, but what does it mean to come here and win the series? The first time you've won a series here since 1998? Okay, I wasn't aware of that fact. Yeah, I think again, you know, it's just part of building.

in a confidence for us as a team. While we're on this journey of what we want to achieve, you know, all these landmarks are, I guess, are important. I think they're just positive indicators that we're going in the right way. Very well played. Thanks very much your time. Thank you. Thanks to Simon Mann down there picking up the interviews. And I'm sure that the South Africa all formats coach, Shukry Conrad, will be very proud as well because he's now taken over the white ball team as well. And to get that first series win in England since 1990. 98 is a huge achievement for this South Africa team, who obviously love lords have come back to the scene

of their World Test Championship final as well. Ebony, Rain for Brent, you were talking about the South Africa side. Let's just talk briefly pick up about Jacob Bethel because, yes, there has been a bit of focus on him as Simon Mann mentioned there. He was promoted. Boy, he showed, I guess, why there has been hype about him. Yeah, I think Harry Brooks comment about

they're not being much focus kind of sums up, actually why Bethel was able to have that freedom to play today. He's backed by that dressing room. The whole sort of everything from Rob Key, Brenda McCullum, Harry Brooke, they see him as a player that they want to him to learn on the international stage. And let's face it, he's been under a lot of scrutiny

because he hasn't played a huge amount. He's been given the honor of captaining soon and maybe hadn't quite fired in the way that we'd expected to see him come out and do what he did. I mean, that over where he took, took down 20. You know, it kind of, you look, at and you think you see exactly what they see in him. He's a real talent.

And actually, I think it shows a bit of guts. You know, let's face it, even though they're saying there's no focus, he would have felt that he, he would have heard a few the noises and the, the, the, the the criticisms or, you know, just why he's maybe getting so much airtime at the moment at such a young age. And I think he's kind of responded in a way. He would have loved to have gone on today. And I think he would look back at that and think, I could have maybe just kicked on a

little bit more. But equally, he, he reminded us all exactly why that Jack, just remember backing him. His dismissal was a bit unfortunate, wasn't? He got a wide ball that was there to hit and we've called it backward point. Yeah, he batted beautifully today. He took down the spinners. Probably tactically, I think South Africa got that decision wrong. When he came in, they bowled both spinners at both ends.

And so had Maharaj and then he took down ADMarch. Obviously, they went for the matchup, the off spinner bowling to the left hand. And Bethel saw that as his opportunity to a guy who's pretty out of, kind of out of touch. He hasn't played much cricket, hasn't scored any run. it was kind of right this is going to get me going and he got i don't know how was it 20 or balls 23 balls for 50 yeah 50 off 28 it was a you know showing showcasing his talent he'll be it was a it was a good tactical move for him to go up the order um to four a bit of bit of extra pressure more pressure but he responded and i think i think it's uh you know little indication that he can

handle the big arena which is why i think everyone who you talk to him about behind the scenes that this is the reason why they rate him so highly in the camp that he can go out there and play how he wants to play in a big occasion and also he had to remember he also bowl, didn't bowl particularly were he went for over 10 runs and over

so he kind of felt like he owed the team something back and he went out and delivered so that was great he'll be disappointed because this was the opportunity to go on and what we're going to say about is his first 100 first professional 100 he played the right shot to the right ball we just didn't quite execute you right but you know a positive day for Jacob Bethel and obviously

Harry Brooke trying to take every bit of pressure off and saying what what's the story well the story is he's captain and we're not people sure whether he should be captain but he is but yeah he played nicely for his 50 and clearly if England to chase this they need one of their top four or five to go and get 100 yeah because there was you know root with his 61 Bethel with that 58 Brooke 33 from 40 sort of bright innings which didn't quite kick on but butler 61 from 50 one and Jack's Sean. I mean, it was a thrilling match to watch, wasn't it? And exciting because I think we were teased,

weren't we? There were these partnerships and these sixers were hits. And then a wicket would fall and you think, oh, that's the game. And then, and actually England came again, but then a wicket fall, oh, that's the game now and spectators were leaving. And yet still Archer came at them at the end. So for, from an entertainment point of view, it's been, it's been a fabulous match to watch. Yeah. And I think in contrast to the game where they got bowled out or

skittled, you know, to to bounce back, I sometimes think how you lose, is sometimes more important. You know, they could have easily come and not quite clicked or not fired. And they really put in a good effort to show that they were trying to take it right to the wire, entertaining cricket all around. So that just shows that they've, you know, they haven't taken the loss in that first game lightly. They've really tried to come back. Look, unfortunate, it's a quick series, so they're out of it.

But when you see a team apply themselves and improve, it kind of makes you realize that they're on the right trajectory. Good to see that. Yeah, Phil Long, give us some of the numbers and records and statistical and things of this match. Yeah, well, everything you mentioned there about taking the positives that people like to say that, don't they? England in the end lost by five runs, but it was the highest score they've made batting second against South Africa. The highest score they've made batting second at Lord. In fact, only second in all time after the 326, for eight that India made back in 2002. And the fans today here have had a great old date, 650.

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So there you have it. Turkey is med. Flavour, history, St Paul and St Nick. Time to start packing. Right, we're going to have a bit of a chat around the news that's been coming out of Australia over the last few days surrounding their test captain Pat Cummins, Cummins because with the ashes looming and coming up in the very near future, well, what could

it mean if their captain isn't fit to play? Some, the opening game? We don't yet know. In fact, it doesn't sound as if Pat Cummins even knows quite what his level of fitness will be come that first test match at Perth on the 21st of November. The Australian captain, 32 years of age, is experiencing what Cricket Australia have termed a level of lumber bone stress. So, Tamal Mills is alongside us as an expert in all things bowling and the niggles and injuries that get picked up as well. Agers is here and Alastair Cook as well, who of course was the player of the series the last time England's men won an ashes in Australia, 2010-11.

But Tamal, first of all, lumberbone stress, just explain what that is. What does it feel like? The modern scan injury. Yeah, well, I feel like I've been brought in as the BBC's lumber stress correspondent. Yeah, so I guess just for a bit of context, what Australia do that we don't do in England and I'm not sure any other country does is they routinely scan their bowlers, regardless of how they're feeling, I guess, to see how they're doing and to try and pick up on these type of injuries early before they become stress fractures. So certainly yearly, it might even be more frequently. So their bowlers get put through the MRI at a period just to see where their bodies are. see where they're at and for context i think if you scanned every single fast bowler's body

during the middle of a season you would probably find some form of lumbus stress in in the body um i guess the issue is is if it's bothering you because you do sometimes you get some cricketers that have stress fractures that they don't even know about or stress fractures that they've had but they've played through and have healed um whereas you obviously on the other side of the coin get a lot that obviously you're in a lot of pain they have a scan and they have a have a have a have a have a have a have a the fracture. So we don't know at what stage Pat Cummings is at. Is this just a routine scan that they've done and they've seen some lumbus stress? Has he been complaining? Has he been sore? And then gone for a scan and they found this lumbus stress. And then how much of an issue is it causing?

Because lumbus stress in itself isn't a problem. It's when that stress becomes a stress fracture. That's when that that is certainly is a problem. So I guess from one side, they'll be hoping that they've caught it soon and they can let it heal and let it settle down. and then hope it doesn't then come back and return. But yeah, it will certainly be a cause for concern for Australia, for sure. So what we do know from Cricket Australia, what information has been shared so far, is that Cummins, he first experienced ongoing lower back pain.

Well, I think actually the first niggle, like you felt perhaps after the World Test Championship final here. But as he said, sometimes, you feel something and then it just goes away, bowler's aches and pains. It was ongoing lower back pain following the West Indy. Indies test tour. So it goes out to the West Indies, bowls again there, and then this back niggle, whatever he's feeling, does not go away. So that's when they did what they're saying is further investigation and that was the scan, which then identified this level of lumberbone

stress. So they're saying it's about requiring further management. Now Pat Cummins himself spoke to the media just a day or so ago and it's these comments which have particularly sort of caught the eye, Alistair and Aggers, about just how he will manage it because he just had no clarity, has no clarity in terms of what he's sharing about, you know, how long he'll fill this for and what might happen. But he says he's prepared to take a few risks with the rehab, you know, maybe not be kind of up to speed or pain free even by the time that first test match comes around at Perth. I mean, as a old fast bowler yourself, how would you cope? I mean, Ben Stokes was talking at, during the India series, wasn't he, about when that whole question of substitutes

came up. He said, if you put me in a scanner now, the whole thing would spark up. And he's right. I think, I think, you know, the scanners obviously do show, the MRI scanners show all sorts of things that you probably can play through and people do play through them. And until you're actually scanned and you see something, you know, you just carry on playing. But clearly there is something here. The thing about Cummins that you could be slightly concerned about is, of course, he missed a huge amount of his early career with back trouble. He was, I think, 2011 to 17 or something like that. I mean, you know, there was a serious doubt about whether he would ever actually pick up his career. again. So I'm not suggesting this is the same sort of injury, but you can imagine they're being

very cautious with that in mind. However, you've got a fellow who's captain of Australia, Dessa wants to play in the Ashes. It might be the last one that he has at home. Or you throw all that into the mix, and clearly he will want to play. But there's always something in the buildup to every Ashes series, something about a player or will this happen, won't this happen. We all know what it's going to be for the moment. Everyone gets to Australia, what the talking point and the media's going to be and that is whether Pat Kammer is going to play in that first test match or not but at the certain at the moment it doesn't seem it doesn't seem certain that he'll be able to no and even he has said off the back of that scan on monday said the scan

wasn't terrible but enough to know there's a little bit there that i need to be careful and he goes on to say i'm not bowling or doing much at the moment the question is really how much he can do between now and the the start of the the ashes does he need to maybe this is more of a question for tomorrow as the as the bowler how much How much load do you need to have Tamar before going into a test match? Going to vary person to person, isn't it? Yes. And Pat Cummins has played an awful lot of cricket, hasn't he, for the last few years?

You know, speak about that bowling attack of Australia. They're ever present, aren't they? Pretty much Stark, Hazard Wood and Cummings. So you could argue that they're due an injury of this kind of severity, not that you want to see it. But yeah, I think you certainly want to be playing some form of cricket in the lead up to an Ashes series, whether you're a batter or a bowler. But... We're almost at that Joffar Archer conversation when he came back,

having played no cricket and that conversation about how much how much do you actually need to have played? It would be the same with Mark Wood, won't it? If Woody doesn't play in these games to Durham, he's not going to have played a game before for what, seven months, eight months, maybe more. I think with us, I was speaking to Mark Wood, and he probably is one of the bowlers who probably doesn't need much actual bowling because he has a limited number of balls in his bowl.

Not like Chris Wilkes, he almost need to, He needs to build into the season, you know, and build miles and to live. Actually, Woody, he only has to, he bowls at 100% all the time. He can't bowl at 80%. So almost he just need to poll at a cone for a bit and then throw him into the game because that's where you're going to get the best out of him when he's fresh and wearing to go. The worry, I suppose, for Australia and the fact that Pat Cummings is saying, well,

I'm not bowling now. I'm not bowling now. And then I'll hold off, hold off. Actually, what that does do, then when you do have a massive spike in a workload is other injuries come in so it might not just be back is the fact that actually your body isn't match hardened and unfortunately he'll just have to they'll just have to deal with it the issue not the issue the thing for england if on the england's point of view is i said i've said all along if england will need a little bit of luck to go down here in australia we had some luck in 2010-11 to win

where their side wasn't as settled as i think they played three different spinners and this could be the start of of something that little bit of luck no one will ever think about it at the end of the result in 10 years time old Pat Cummings missed two games or this and that. They're making the line with his calf going. England either win or lose the series. But England need a little bit of luck.

They're formed five bowlers if you include bowling in that. If they play all those games and they're fit in the fire and have no eagles or anything, Australia is an incredibly tough side to be in Australia. However, if you take two of those bowlers out,

you start looking at the next level of Australian bowlers, they're not at that elite level. And they're the sides that England's, strength is their batting they can dominate those bowls so that's what that's where you start looking you start looking on a on a purely on a stat space thing it does go into england's favor and this is the start of it that maybe they won't those the fav four won't get through all the

games where cummins is fortunate if you look at the way the ashes are scheduled he's got one test in perth and there's about 10 days off then they play the brisbane game then there's another quite lengthy break before the adelaide test match and then of course yeah they do come thick and fast it's Christmas and New Year. But actually those first two games that you try to in fact nurse him through a bit actually there's

what longer do you expect off between those games so that makes it more manageable. And no coincidence why you sometimes find Scott Boland appearing in a Melbourne test match because at that stage

you've had three tests it's the kind of bang bang of Melbourne and Sydney that comes when other bowlers you know the odd one here or there has given away and then Bolander has had his opportunity. I do want to talk

about, you know, the other bowlers that Australia have in their stocks that they could call upon. But, Alistair, from the captaincy point of view, if you put an Australian captaincy hat on, what does it do to have uncertainty around who might lead the side going into a first Ashes test? I think if you didn't have any other candidates, it'd be an issue. But you've got someone who's in their setup who's captained a lot before in Steve Smith. So actually, it's not an issue for this Australian set up because of Steve Smith. You know, you've got a captain who's done a lot. Obviously, we know why he wasn't, he ended his captaincy career officially in terms of

Australian captain's a sandpaper gate. But, you know, he's a great cricket brain, loves absolutely no problem whatsoever, throwing him into that role. So I don't actually see that as much of an issue as. Had sandpapergate not happened, he'd probably be captainate. If he'd have lasted that long, Captain's ever, fair play. pretty worn out, but it's true, though, isn't it? I mean, yeah, yeah, he would just step in, wouldn't he?

Do you think there's a scenario where they would chop and change the captaincy? Let's say they get to the, before the first test, and Pat Cummins is clear, or they might probably say he's not going to play all five tests. He's got this thing on his back. He's probably going to play tests two and four, or one, three and five. Does Pat Cummins captain those games that he plays in, or do they say, okay, Steve Smith's going to captain's going to captain's. I would say the way that Pat Cummings has handled the captaincy and his role, I don't

I just think he's Australia's captain. So if he's fit and he's playing, he captains. That means he misses out because of your replacement, because of what, you know, the fact that how experienced D-Smith, what a player he is for Australia, I just think that it just works well. There's no competition between him. He's not going for the job again.

There's none of that. He's just captaining that game. But the way Pat Cummins is kind of held in Australia, the way this, you know, how he, how well he has done as a bowling captain. which has been remarkable which has been extraordinary it has so rare yeah for for a bowler to captain so successfully and there was all the talk again when he when he first got that job wasn't it oh he'll never be able to do it he's going to break down he's going to be injured he's going to be exhausted he's going to be exhausted don't go went to bowl actually all that's been nonsense he's been an excellent

captain and i think that's probably you know it adds to why this has been this has already become such a big story you know we're talking about it over here but in the australian media it's blown up so quickly just this idea of a niggle because he has become so talismanic for them. And it's what he can also do with the bat, as long as side, yes, the bowling, the leadership. But he's played some match-winning knocks. I mean, even over here, your mind goes back to that partnership with lion and the edge baston. He has a, he has the heart of a lion. And he is just one of those supreme athletes when you watch him bowl. He does it again and again for Australia. A bit like in that Ben Stokes way of, I'll grab the ball and I'll make something happen. He

does that. I would say just for the word is that I'd say this is more than a niggle. If you've had a scan and you've got bone stress in your lumbus spine as any speaking as a bowler and speaking that someone that speaks with and hangs around with with fast bowlers all the time that's that's more than a niggle and that's your mind goes to a different place because you know if that turns into a fracture you're done for eight months I thought you can say hang to hang around scanners that too that too I've had plenty of them but it's like paying many bowls you think I mean so it's it's it's a horrible I've tried to play through a stress stretch but and this is only in T20 cricket, never mind the test match, but you're literally running into the crease

knowing something is about to hurt. Because it's a horrible place to be because more often than not, a lot of the times bowling is the only thing that hurts. Because it's normally, it's a tiny little bone in your back and you've got a fracture in it or you have a hot spot and you've got inflammation right now. You can walk around day to day, you're playing with your kids, you're going to the shops, you're doing everything and you're not injured. But you try and run in and, you know, slam down and bowl the ball the ball and and it's like you're being stabbed in the backs. Now, we don't know if he's that far along the line yet. He's obviously felt something,

and it's been for a prolonged period of time, and he's gone for a scan. But the fact that they've seen it, that could go, you could bowl seven overs spell in the first test, be fine, and he could come in to bowl, you know, second spell, and then bang, and you've gone, and you can't bowl. And is he prepared to push himself

to appear in an ashes to then potentially? And especially knowing that Australia, how do they formulate their team? Three fast bowlers and one spinner. And then, obviously, if they played by Webster or Cam Green, I don't know if he's going to be fit to bowl. So he's coming back into bowling. That makes his role even more important, doesn't it?

Green's had multiple stress factors. So he's, you know, see how long he's taken him to come back from a stress fracture. So I think that's a really good comment from someone who hasn't had a stress fracture, who hasn't, doesn't know what it's like, you know, what a lumber stress or any of that. But just that mental thing, like, you can relate it to have, whatever you do in your life, whatever actually running in to do something where you know it's about to really hurt for that short period of time and then you've got to execute something put that to back in mind shows it's almost impossible so australia are lucky in one sense they found it now because if they say

oh it's a bit sore just rest up they didn't obviously they're going to scan him because he's you know you're going to if they didn't either gone gone then oh it's fine just a bit of rest you find then goes and plays a Sheffield chill game to to play and then you're done aren't he's out the whole ashes so actually they've caught it at a really good time there is there is definitely a world here where he does six weeks where they delode it so there's you know he's not allowed to run he's just on the bike and he's just doing gym but you know he's not lifting weights but you can stay trying okay six weeks you delode and then they probably will scan again and it looks good and then you're probably okay so as as cookie just said that is there's definitely a world where

the timing of it's really good because he can have six weeks off now tick over and then come the middle of october you can get back in the nets and slowly build it up and then he'll be fine come mid-november so he's saying here at this stage of my career i feel i can probably get up to speed a bit quicker than when I was 18 or 19. He says back then you probably feel like you need to play a few shield games or one day as he says, I'm pretty confident even if I don't get a chance to play a shield game, I can get up to speed. If he can't get up to speed, he's already mentioned Scott Boland.

Is he your automatic roller that slides in for Perth? Did he his last game? Patrick, you got his last game when they're bold. We didn't have a great ashes last time. We went over there, did they? I mean, he's. I mean, the seven seven at the G is the one. Was it?

One here. In heels, he's the first. He was the throw a bowler we thought a bowl really well here. And England got him, didn't he went after? He went at sixes in the series. He went at sixes in the series. It's never happened. Tenfer in the border Gavasker trophy when he got his opportunity.

No, he's especially in Australian conditions. He's been superb. What's a replacement to throw in? Also, a guy who just knows his game. So, you know, you're not throwing in a 21-year-old, I don't want to say, Sonny Baker kind of type bowler who's fresh into the game. You're a guy who's literally. been around he's in the squad he goes to every squad he plays if there's an injury and he's

rock solid but but england did get him they did get him and they went hard at him whether they can do the same in australian conditions with the kookerabua ball where he's probably so much more comfortable than he is bowling with the dukes ball in england where you know again is it going to swing how much it can swing all that kind of knowledge he's built up the kukkahoroa ball different the jukes but england do have good vibes against him like the last time they played this team, not the previous team, the setup of going after him. So let's play the scenario that Cummins doesn't make the Perth test match or goodness knows whether he can play or bowl much feature during the ashes.

Scott Boland is in. You've still got Stark and Hazelwood that you want to get through all five matches which often it's been Boland coming in for one of those two. So who are the stocks after that then if I throw you the names of Michael Nisa who was a backup for the the border gavasker trophy but he then picked up a hamstring injury and his last test match was in 2022 Brendan dogged was a reserve for the world test championship final but then he picked up a hip injury and was ruled out but he had a roaring time in the sheffield shield for south australia 11 wicket young lad isn't he's what 21 22 or something i'm not sure of his exact age but Sean abbott um another one who he's sort of further down the list i suppose he was behind

dogged in the pecking order for the the west indies tour but was in the squad for the border gavaska trophy. What do you make of that sort of step? Jay Richardson has been in and around. He's had injuries as well. Yeah, he deputized for Cummins when he, well, he wasn't, he didn't actually get COVID did he, but he, he had he was a COVID contact or something. So he couldn't play in the Adelaide test. So Jai Richardson played at that. So he's another one to put onto the list. I might what you could say actually they've got a lot of us. They've got plenty of experience of their backups. It's not going to be some young lad who comes in wide eyed and

nervous and so on. It's going to be one of those who's been around. But but it is a step down. I know it's absolutely. I know it's a quite hard thing to say to those kind of bowlers because actually Stark Hayswood Cummings are, you could arguably say, with lion in there, one of the most all-round bowling attacks ever to play the game of cricket together. Yeah. That quartet are, you know, it's hard to argue with a quartet of that quality.

So no matter who they replace them with, it is going to be a step down. But that's just due to the quality that Australia have. Yeah, and I think from being out there, during the big bash and before test series and stuff, they're not afraid of having a, it's a bit, so they're very different to England. They'll have a shootout. This almost feels like whoever's doing well in the Sheffieldshire,

but the press almost build it up in Australia that way. It's like, okay, there's three Sheffield Shield games here. Who's going to get the most runs? Because they're going to open the batting in the next test. And it could be a case of with the bowling as well. Isn't that really interesting about that all the Aussies are going back, aren't they? They're not playing like, I know, I wouldn't say Hanscom's in the mix,

but Bankross asked to go back from Gloucester. to go back straight away. Hanskin's coming, going back and playing. Someone else, I'm trying to think. I'm racking my brain for one other, but everyone is really, you know, they're that top three. And it's right, it's a shootout.

It could be a case. So I would say Kaua is pretty much at the moment due to his experience is going to bat a number open, but two and three, which way they're going? And it is a shootout. And whoever plays well in those, and they don't have much cricket. Whoever plays well in those three field,

shield games, you feel could get selected. Yeah, the other bowler I've just remembered, he hasn't played a test match, but he has the moniker known as the wild thing. Lance Morris. Yeah. I mean, so to get a young raw. He's 27. He's just had the surgery on a stress match. Right.

Yeah, I played with Lance at the scorches, so he's W.E. He bowls rapid. He's played a couple of first class matches. February in March, were his last first class matches. So he's literally just pulled out. He was supposed to, he was just in the squad for these whiteball games against seven. Africa and then he had a bad back and he's literally just about I don't know he might have had the surgery gone to New Zealand to have the titanium rod put in his back these young

fast bowlers no not built like the East too are they so he's out he's done for a year 12 months because he's had the surgery that Joffra had that Jason Berendorce had that a lot of fast James Pattinson a lot of these guys have had so yeah he's he's definitely out of the condition and I think a lot of things the the the wickets in Australia are much harder than than what we have here in England so the stress not just you're back but your knees, your ankles, whatever it is, it is that much more in Australia because those wickets are, you know, rock hard.

Spencer Johnson, another name. Well, he's also injured, isn't he? I was just writing that down. I couldn't remember. He felt pretty close to a test. Yeah, a test run out last year. Feels to me he's someone that gets injured, obviously, quite a lot. And he's very dangerous, whiteboard bowler as well.

And as we know, the way that cricket goes nowadays, it's when you weigh it up. Well, could it be enough? another positive for England in that if the Australian media are so focused on Pat Cummins and his fitness and what might be happening in the early Sheffield Shield games, the England team could they possibly slip into the country without too much hassle? No, and the only thing it has done, I suppose, is it's taken a little bit of like pressure

off Stokesy in one sense that no one's talking about his injury and how we haven't heard anything about his rehab, we hope it's going really well. But again, we're not all rosy in our cam in terms of our talisman is injured and hopefully on his way back. Another indication, though, of how big these ashes are going to be. We're all ready now. It's a back-page sports news, so they're still two months away. Now, thanks to Sir Alistair Cook, Tamar Mills and Jonathan Agnew.

Well, that is it for this episode of the TMS podcast. Make sure you're subscribed so you don't miss an episode, including No Balls with Alex Hartley and now 100 winner, winner, Kate Cross. TMS is back for the third and final One Day International of the series in Southampton. We'll be on air on five sports extra and BBC sounds from 1045 on Sunday morning. We'll see you then. He scored goals, lifted trophies and broken records along the way. There it is. It's a day to remember the Wayne Rooney.

And now he's got a podcast. Welcome to the Wayne Rooney show. Twice a week, Wayne Rooney, Kay Curd and me, Kelly Summers, break down the biggest stories in the Premier League and beyond. As much as you'd like to say it, loyalty in football now is not. existence, whether that's fun play as well as managers. Plus, we'll hear the funniest, wildest and most outrageous stories from Wayne's career. The Wayne Rooney Show.

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