Test Match Special - England outclassed at Lord's as McCullum speaks for first time since sacking

Episode Date: July 13, 2026

Alison Mitchell is alongside England World Cup winners Alex Hartley and Katherine Sciver-Brunt, and Indian commentator & journalist Annesha Ghosh for reaction to England's Test loss to India at Lord's. Hear from captain Nat Sciver-Brunt, head coach Charlotte Edwards, retiring England legends Heather Knight and Tammy Beaumont, and one of India's star bowlers Snee Rana.Plus, BBC cricket correspondent Stephan Shemilt speaks to Brendon McCullum for the first time since he was sacked as the Men's Test head coach.

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Or is he just the king of the attention economy? Find out on Good Bad Billionaire. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Well, here we are on the outfield at Lord, with the England and India players in front of us, India, having beaten England by 270 runs to win this historic first women's test match at the home of cricket,

which can now claim to be the home of cricket. Now it has staged a women's game here. England having been playing test cricket in England since 1937 on the women's front. But it's India who have come out on top having outplayed England, really. They began the last day, day four, needing four wickets to wrap up victory. India duly got those inside an hour and 40 minutes. England all out for 186, 62.5 overs for their second innings having been set. A mammoth, 457 by India to win.

That was out of the equation once England began losing wickets on that third day. Sophie Eccleston, making a half century to go with her five-wicket haul. Crantigaud, seven wickets in the match. Snae Rana with the match winning wicket, four for 42 in the second innings, and six wickets in the match for her. Three women now featuring on Lord's honours boards, two in the away dressing room, Cranty-goude with her five for 37. Ljastika Bartia, 113, and Sophie Eccleston, her five for 118.

I'm with the England captain, Nat Zivabrant. Nat, a big defeat. Just reflect first of all, though, on this occasion of this historic test match at Lords. Yeah, I guess before we started, we knew it was going to be a really special few days, and it has been. I think we've felt it at different times as a team.

I've absolutely loved walking through the long room, and yeah, hopefully we can do it. Hopefully we can do that a few more times in the years to come. And yeah, I guess on the game reflecting, we were outplayed in all departments really. We found bits with the bat and found bits with the ball, but couldn't quite put it all together. India did extremely well. I thought the way Yasta kept at it yesterday, just kept it really simple and had us on our heels, really. Was it particularly tough moving from the T20 format straight into Tessing?

You did have a little bit longer, but the bowling first, the bowlers in particular find it difficult to adjust to that first day, first innings. Yeah, I'd say obviously the timing, it would have been good if we had a few more days. But yeah, as bowlers, we want to trust our skill to be able to change as quickly as we can and adapt as quickly as we can. But like you say, we probably didn't on that first morning. Couldn't quite get our lengths right and then want to be. We did, we were already sort of behind the game, especially in that first innings.

Emotions around the group with the two retirees as well, Tammy Beaumont and Heather Knight. Neither of them got the runs they would have wanted in this test match, but what has this match been like for them? Yeah, of course. They would have liked to have gone out, you know, all guns blazing, maybe a few more runs on the board. But yeah, I think both really happy with their decisions and I guess happy with how they're feeling about the whole occasion. They've loved the four days we've had here. And they'll be sorely missed from our team. They've also had equally long careers and taking the game from pre-professional era

to where we are now. Yeah, they have plenty to be proud of. As a group, we're certainly proud of what they've been able to achieve. Looking ahead, test match cricket is few and far between, but it is vitally important multi-format series in particular for an Ashes series. How is a group do you get to a point where you can bat for long periods and just thinking at, you know, sort of 60 innings in the first, 60 overs in the first innings, just more than 60 overs

in the second innings, but being able to bat to get those big 35400 totals, what do you need to do? I think it's just, you know, individually chunking the game down. Everyone has the skill to be able to do it. I think it's just breaking that down. and you know if somebody thinks about that in over somebody thinks about that in time whatever it is I guess those are the sorts of things that we chat about as a batting group and you know building a partnership together and going big with that yeah I guess you know in the way that we might not have adjusted well with the ball similar things I suppose with the bat but yeah I think

like you say multi-format cricket is so important in the landscape of what we're doing we're Pretty lucky that we get to play quite a few different teams in test match cricket. So, yeah, we've also got a big Ashtly series next summer. So we'll be preparing well for that. And there'll be small moments to celebrate within this match, not least having Sophie Eccleston's name on honours board at Lords. Has it already gone up there? Have you penned it in? Yeah, it's on a bit of tape at the moment.

I'm sure in the next few days, it will be put on there permanently. But yeah, what an amazing occasion for her to, I guess, produce spells like she did. She obviously bowled for a really long time. But she absolutely loves bowling with the red ball. So it's hard to get that ball out of her hand. But, yeah, another fifer at the home of cricket. Yeah, there would be some special memories made this week. A few tired bodies right now.

Of course, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, we've got some big things to come in the next seven to ten days. So, yeah, lots of rest and recuperation. Thanks very much, Nat. Good luck for the rest of the season. Thank you. Nat's of Bruntz, England captain. I'm on the outfield here with two World Cup winners in Alex Hartley and Catherine Siver Brunt and Oneshah Gosh here as well, Indian cricket writer and broadcaster.

Alex, let me come to you then. England outplayed. Where for you, oh, I'll come back to you, Alex, because Charlotte Edwards is here, England coach. Charlotte, well, what have you made, your reaction, first of all, to the results and the way your team played in what is a one-off but a very special test match? Yeah, just really disappointed, I guess, you know, such a historic. historic test match and probably not to play anywhere near our best over the four days, but all credit to India, I thought they played outstandingly well. So yeah, just disappointed.

You know, it's been obviously a long week after the World Cup final and to not put in our best performances. Yeah, pretty disappointing. How much time do you ideally need to prepare a team to play a test match? Longer than what we had. And I think that's, yeah, that's the hard thing. But there's, you know, there's certainly no excuses for Amar. And it's the same for both teams, albeit in the end.

probably had a little bit more time to prepare for this test match. You know, clearly the goal for us this summer was the World Cup and a lot of our attention and detail had been put into that. And yeah, I guess to end, you know, our summer, albeit that we've got some games against Ireland coming up. Yeah, it's been, it's disappointing, but, you know, I think reflecting on the summer as a whole, hugely proud of what the team achieved. You've got a couple of players leaving the dressing room now,

Tammy Beaumont and Heather Knight, how did you begin to move the team forward, particularly without Heather Knight, so unfortunately has still been a big feature of the Whiteball teams? Yeah, absolutely. You know, obviously, firstly, just won a unbelievable careers they've both had. They're going to be sorely missed by the dressing room. You know, there's been a few tears over the last couple of days.

But, you know, their contributions to this team have been unbelievable for a period of time. But I think, I just think it's an exciting opportunity for the young players now within the domestic game, within the England set up to really, I guess, take hold of that and I guess see an opportunity within the team to now state their claim for a spot. And I guess that's what I'll be, the message and will be from me moving forward. How do you see test cricket fitting into the scheme of women's cricket? Do one-off tests like this sort of work? This was a particular occasion, or they would need to be part of a multi-format series?

Yeah, I believe that there should be, I think there's a place for it. I think, but it has to be part of a, you know, a multi-series, yeah, bilateral series. So, yeah, I think that's something to look at moving forward because we've certainly enjoyed test cricket, but you have to have it constantly. You can't play every 18 months and expect performances and certainly when there's no preparation for it as well.

But I'm a huge advocate of it. There's so much we can learn from it. And certainly a lot of my planning going into the next winter with summer's ashes is going to be around our four-day cricket and making sure that we're in a place, you know, in that first test match against the Aussies to really compete. Are you an advocate for some sort of domestic four-day, I guess more than warm-up fixtures, some sort of competition? Yeah, I think there's so much that can be learnt from three and four-day cricket. I really do. I think we've seen here the skills that you need, and I think that only helps in other formats of the game.

So, yeah, that will be something I'll be taking back and hopefully we can do that. I think we're doing that within our academy setups. they're playing two-day cricket, which I think is great. But I think we need to see it in probably tier one cricket. And even if that's two or three games a summer, but getting that exposure for young players, for older players, I think is so important, especially if we continue to play test cricket. And going forward across the summer, the 100 necks,

then those Ireland matches in September. Do you envisage resting some players for that, or do you put out a strong side against an island team that's just featured in the T20 World Cup? I think we need a little bit of time to have a think. There's a lot happened even in the last few days, I think reassess. Yeah, and I think just get some time,

certainly for me, some time at home to reflect on what's been, like I say, a really special summer to be part of so many fantastic occasions. And yeah, I just need time to just, I guess, think about where we want to take this team moving forward, but we know we've got a really important 12 months ahead with a champions trophy and an Ashes summer next summer. Thanks, Charlotte. Good to see.

Charlotte Edwards, England head coach. Right, Catherine Silverbrunton, Alex Hartley, Let's go again, Alex. So overall, your reflections. Yeah, an amazing occasion, but ultimately for England falling way short on the field. Yeah, look, I think that there has to be a World Cup hangover on there. You know, you play Sunday,

you obviously go out Sunday night with your friends, you have a drink, you let your hair down for a really, really intense month that has been playing in a home World Cup and then not getting over the line. You're off Monday, you're off Tuesday, you only have Wednesday, Thursday to prepare. So realistically, the bowlers aren't going to bowl Wednesday, and Thursday. We didn't go well enough. We were a little bit off, lines, lengths, we didn't attack

the stumps enough. And we don't play test cricket. England don't play test cricket. Nobody does in women's cricket. So like Charlotte Edwards said, you can't then expect the performances, but England were outplayed in all aspects of the game. Yeah, true story. Like it's a disappointing end to a monumental eight weeks. For one of the, I've rode every emotion with them. I feel like I'm on or so I know what's going on behind the scenes like the effort the emotions I guess the mental toil of it obviously India had a significant amount of more time to just pick up that red ball and sort of get used to it and really sort of get the rhythm there and and that does I know rhythm with bowling is number one it's the the most key thing element to a scene bowler and probably a spin baller

So for them not to be able to have that and come straight from bowling, you know, out the back of the hands, offcutters, to suddenly just trying to hammer a line and length consistently over and over and over again. When you've only really had, you know, your body's adapted to bowling four overs, not 14. And so it's a wild thing. But we were, I would still come, you know, both teams were still pretty much on a level playing field in terms of where they've come from situationally. did not bowl well enough, but our girls need to be able to make those adjustments. That should be the basis of their training anyway, is consistency and relentlessness with the ball. Everything after that is, you know, an addition. So, yeah, they'll be super disappointed,

but mentally, completely drained. Yeah, it's been a big eight weeks to say the least. A quick turnaround now, another week until the 100 starts. But for this match, occasion of it, Alex, has it been a success staging a test match here for women at Lords? Yeah, a ball a little blip yesterday. I think it's been amazing. I think the women have had full attention, which is absolutely what they deserve. You know, the four days of the calendar year is, you know, not much to ask for. And they're getting the past players down to ring the bell the morning of the game, 15,000 in on Saturday. I think there's about nine or ten in yesterday. It's been amazing. The crowd's been great. The occasion's been great.

taken too long for England women to play a test match at Lords but it's happened now and hopefully it will happen more regularly moving forward and yeah a great occasion and ultimately the best team won but it's not taken anything away from the occasion that England lost this test match the significance of having women's names on the honours boards at Lords Catherine I mean names have been up there for one day international since their famous day in 2017 but on those test match honours boards they are now just integrated and and Sophie Eccristen's name goes down there on the list and Krantigord and Yastika Bartia now that's a huge significance isn't it yeah it is a massive thing it is something you wish to achieve if you have a set of goals

as a cricketer that's one of the things you can't deny that's something you would quite like and it's definitely something that was on my radar and the handful of times we got to play here I managed to do that along with three other girls and if you consider the amount of years that have passed now it is a small number so it is a massive achievement to do that so I'm really proud and proud of the way Sophie's played I'm proud of the way the girls have carried themselves over the eight weeks these eight weeks because it's been I can you know I didn't get to taste I guess massive stardom that this is stardom now it the amount of people watching them at the eyes on

and the expectation it has gone through the roof so We're into a new territory now of mental resilience and how we come through that. So the way they've sort of carried themselves and kept carrying themselves is great, especially if you consider where they finished last time to this. It is a 360, isn't it? So it's all about the future now and where do we go from here? We'll pick up on that theme in a moment. But speaking of stardom,

I'm actually gosh, we're seeing Harman Precourt being interviewed now as the winning captain, in that the India team have match winning medals around their neck. Their fans are hacking the lower tier of the grandstand. Just give us a sense of the following that this team and this match and the feats that have been achieved have been followed in India. Oh, it has been covered fairly well by international press. And of course, national press back in India and social media, which has been such a crucial vehicle for the promotion of women's game

since the 2017 World Cup. I remember Twitter had launched captain's emojis during that historic ODI worker for the first time. And ever since, the Indian women's cricket team players have become something of household names, the likes of Smriti Mandana, Jimmy Marodrig's, Harmon Preetkar, who is having a conversation with the host broadcasters right now as the winning captain. But this match has also produced superstars like a Krantigar. The Revolution, her name literally translates to revolution. a revolution that lords will remember for decades and centuries to come. It's one thing to become the first ever woman to have your name on the Lord's

test honors boards. It's another to become the player of the match because she followed up her first, five-wicket hall with two wickets in the second dig. And then she'll come back to you in a moment. Heather Knight is here retiring Heather Knight. Heather, it's it's over. Can you believe your international career is at an end? Yeah, it's obviously had a little bit of time to sink in. Yeah, there's certainly some emotion around obviously the last few days but yeah like I said yesterday it feels like the right time for me if we're really happy really content it's been really cool to obviously play here at lords in a test match that's just to be part

of that history has been amazing obviously not the result we were after but credit to India they they've they've played unbelievably they've they've cope with the demands of test cricket a little bit better than we have but yeah feel really proud really really special and yeah I'm just looking out on the outfield here we've got all our families and friends which is a really nice thing and yeah it's gonna be a good afternoon and sort of sharing with those guys, showing with people in the dress room,

and just, yeah, reliving some memories and I guess saying goodbyes. Your last test match is a first for women's cricket to be staged here at Lords. What are your hopes for what this sets in motion going forward for the game? Yeah, I hope it's not the last for sure, and I'm sure it won't be.

I think it's been a really important thing to tick off. It's been a long time coming to have a test here. And obviously it's the most of the most historic ground in the country and in the world really so yeah to to have a test match here for women is really important I think it's been a brilliant occasion like it's yeah been really cool really fun to play in I've caught myself looking around quite a lot and just trying to soak it in and just yeah I'm grateful for the for the people before that have kind of enabled this day to happen

I think on day one the past players ringing the bell that was a really lovely wholesome moment I think there was a a few emotional girls actually that were the sort of lining up and singing the national anthem seeing that and knowing the significance of this moment in time. And yeah, I think the good thing where we're getting to with women's cricket, there isn't that many sort of moments to tick off. And you hope now that it's kind of all about the game

and the cricket that is played. So yeah, it's an amazing moment, but yeah, sure it won't be the last test match year. I know you would have wanted more runs, but what was it like coming out for your final test innings? Which happened pretty quickly given Tammy Beaumont was out first ball, but can you talk us through what that was like and indeed a guard of honor when you walked off as well?

Yeah, well, like coming out, obviously, just I missed the garden of honour for Tammy. So I was making my way through the long room. But yeah, I actually felt like really calm and really normal. Like I really wanted to make sure that final innings I was myself and I was playing how I wanted to. And yeah, I sort of thought I would in that sort of sticky situation, 20 for three. This is, it's kind of been a bit of a story of my career really. But yeah, unfortunately, I wasn't able to do what I've done before and go on and get that kind of big innings and help the team out. Yeah, when I did get out, I was obviously just frustrated with my dismissal, really.

It's quite a classic night dismissals, head falling over a little bit to the offside. So, yeah, it was kind of a way that I probably got out a little bit through my career. So the guard of honor was lovely. Obviously, credit to India for doing that. And I've played cricket with some of those guys, Reacher, Schmitty, Deepty as well. So, yeah, really nice for those guys to kind of honor that. And, yeah, just trying to take it in. I only got emotional sort of when I saluted my parents, actually.

wondering when that might have come. Yeah and then I've had a box a week with my friends and family so that's been so special to kind of share this moment with the people that have been there on my journey and played a huge part and supported me and yeah that was that was really nice. Who can you pick out from this group behind us? I know you're going to join them in a moment but who's here in particular that you want a name check and thank? Well yeah obviously my parents, mum and dad have been there from the start. They're driving me all around the country as a kid and supporting me all over the place. So yeah obviously there, my partner Tim, and I haven't actually got that many people here today. The box has been

full for three days, but yeah, it was kind of nice that obviously the moment was there yesterday. But yeah, even like all the friends and family, like looking at Andy, Andy Bell, Richie Siv, yeah, like Callum's, Callum is Tommy's partner, just all that group of people kind of live what we live altogether. And yeah, I think a lot of the families are kind of going to miss my partner, more than anything. They were like, oh, everyone's mentioned me. They were like, oh, we're really going to miss him. He's kind of the glue that holds everyone together. So, yeah, it's a special moment for, obviously,

my family, but all the parents are, I think, yeah, and hopefully we're going to have a few drinks with them and celebrate with them. They've been a huge part of our journey, and I think that's what I've really loved about this summer. Obviously, a home World Cup, they're so special just because you have so many friends and family around and you get to share that journey and that special memories

with them. Obviously, really disappointed we went able to win that trophy here at Lord's last week, but yeah, I think that's one of the special things about cricket is the people for me and the characters. So yeah, really nice that everyone's obviously out here able to show it with us as players. And you're going to be, this is pretty much your home ground now for the 100, isn't it? You've got the role with London spirit. Do you see yourself advancing that sort of administration or coaching side? What direction do you think you're going in the future?

I'm open to try things to be honest. Obviously, I've been doing the general manager role for six months now and I am really excited. I've really loved doing that actually. I've always loved being part of shaping teams and I guess now it's the sort of players and the staff, the teams that I'm shaping so that's really fun and really excited for that. I'm going to play a little bit more cricket. I'm hoping to play in the Big Bash in particular

and then we'll just sort of go from there. I would like to dip my toe into coaching a little bit and just see what I like and yeah, I think enjoy myself a little bit as well like obviously you don't get a huge amount of time to go on holiday and spend time with friends and family so I'm going to make sure I have a really good holiday really enjoy it and embrace all the opportunities that come my way.

Is your alter ego going to come out a bit more? Because Catherine Sibre Brunt has been telling us all about that in the last couple of days. No, Shelley hasn't been out yet, so yeah, we'll see. Do we need to watch that balcony dressing room? Not too much, I think it's not a day for Shelley. We're at Lords, Shelley. Shelley doesn't really belong at Lords, I don't think. So yeah, we'll see. Heather, thank you for the memories. Congratulations on your career.

Thanks, Alice, appreciate that. Heather Knight, the outgoing former England captain, retiring now from international cricket. I'll have a bit more of a chat here with Anesh. We were speaking about the India team, the occasion. India have received their trophy for winning this test match. It's quite a sizable trophy as well for this one-off test, isn't it? But yeah, the superstar names in this India team, Aneshah, a word from you again.

You talked about Kranty Gord, Yasekabata as well, getting her name on the honours board. And she was quite emotional. I interviewed her yesterday. she then came to speak to you and she's a player who has had to show a tremendous amount of resilience during her career absolutely and this is such a huge moment for her because such an tendulkar i think gifted her something because she was one of the key architects of this victory just before the trophy trophy presentation happened and as i was mentioning the 2025 odi world cup triumph for india happened eight months ago you saw the likes of smriti mandana harman prith kore herself shafali

VARMA emerging as bona fide superstars but what this test match has done is given that aura of stardom brought that on to the likes of Yastika Bhatya and Krantigod. Great stories all round and I am pretty certain India will be flying back home with their heads held high with the way they have performed here. They're doing a bit of a lap of honour. They've headed right over to the groundstand where their fans have gathered you can hear the calls and the shouts, the waving of the arms, the desires for selfies as they show off their trophies and their medals. Tammy Beaumont is here. Somebody else has finished your international career now,

Tammy just said to Heather, can you believe it's all over? What's your overriding emotion now that your career is at an end internationally? Yeah, I guess it's been a surreal week really, ever since I announced it on Wednesday, I think, yeah, probably not quite the goodbye I was after, but yeah, it's still an amazing experience to play in the first test match here at Lords and yeah, kind of go out in something that was, yeah, unimaginable in 2009 when I, when I'm a my debut. So Donald Bratman ended his career with a duck. Has anybody mentioned that to you?

You're in good company. Yeah, actually someone must have told my husband yesterday and probably made it slightly better. But yeah, it was a bit awkward actually when I obviously got the guard of honour. I felt like there was no chance I could raise my back because I hadn't used it. So went with the helmet instead, but yeah, I guess was it to be, but yeah, still really proud of the last 17 years and being part of a really special group for a very long time. And where do you see your career heading now?

You've obviously done a lot of media work already, but what lies ahead? Yeah, I guess I'm just keeping a lot of options open. I'm still going to play in the 100 for Birmingham Phoenix, kind of really looking forward to that. And after that, I guess, just kind of look into whatever's open there. Like obviously, love working in the media, and I've been doing a master's in leadership in sport for a couple of years.

So I think I'll stay in the game. But yeah, probably see what happens. Mike play next year. Who knows? I haven't decided yet. I mean, it seems a fitting end that you do end your career here at Laws, the place where you lifted a World Cup trophy and the player of the tournaments as well. Will that always stay with you as your career highlights? Yeah, absolutely. It feels a very long time ago now.

We can talk about the double hundred at Cambridge as well. Yeah, I've got a few highlights. I actually got asked this in the press conference on Wednesday. And yeah, interestingly, the one I came up with at the time was the game at the Oval last year where I was in charge for the game and that atmosphere and the comeback from the girls. That win in particular for me, I think, really stands out. And the fact that I kind of got two in that game and didn't really do anything is mad that that popped into my head. But yeah, so many amazing memories. And obviously here, yeah, 2017, yeah, it's a feeling that I've probably been trying to replicate for nine years. And as kind of alluded us in a way, but yeah, I guess amazing to go down with that piece of history.

Yeah, you're very proud, Tammy. Thank you for the memories down the years as well. Congratulations on your career. We'll look forward to still watching you play domestically. Thank you. Thanks, Ellie. Bommon who's also nursing a lovely bottle of champagne that's got Tammy Beaumont written in gold lettering on it as well 261 international matches final appearance Lord's Test 10 to 13th

July 26 engraved on the front lovely Tammy you like the while when you drink it you're going to keep the bottle yet yeah be drink aware everyone drink in moderation and yeah obviously I'll be keeping the bottle that good messaging yeah I actually don't love champagne so this will probably just be a special occasion I think you might find a few people to be willing to share it with you Tammy Vomon who's there. Catherine, where does the team go from here? Because we've just spoken to Heather Knight. Tammy hasn't featured in the Whiteball games this year.

Heather Knight has, so she leaves a hole, certainly. Where do you see the team heading? They've got a bit of time before the next international is against Ireland. Yeah, there's many angles, isn't there? I think they've already sort of shown their face, you know, their cards a little bit with Jodie Grucock, obviously Maya Boucher, just when she has some. step back into the domestic scene, has scored loads. I know Danny White Hodge, you know, she's not a young pup anymore,

but she's just shown us she's not about to stop or slow down. So I know she's dying to get back into the one-day team on a consistent basis. So that's an option. But whether or not, you know, Lottie wants to go in that direction, who can say that conversation is probably going to be had over this winter, I imagine at some point. And then there's, you know, many, many more options. There's a lot of girls standing up now.

Maddie Villiers is proof of that. She's performed consistently well, MVP of the month, consistently. And ended up back in this test team. She's so happy to be back and she did take her opportunity. We saw the resilience of her with the bat. She bowled very well, especially in her first spell. So I think in the island series, Lottie said that she actually doesn't know if she wants to sit down and think,

I think she'll have a pretty good idea, right, and what I'd like to see is not people having a rest. I would like to see her play what she believes is her best one-day team. And off the back of the one, because it is probably the one-days you would focus on, it would then be your staple team for the Asher series that's coming up. I think she should play her best team. You always see that as a chance to rest people, but I've never really believed in that

because they are sometimes confidence-boosters that you need to pump into people when they are your always. last games before your next international games, a long period of time after the fact. So yeah, I hope she plays her best squad and gives them confidence and potentially rotates those 15 players over those three games, so we'll see. Alex, think you're of the mind that probably wouldn't be the best team put out against Ireland. Would you give a few players a rest? I think I guess particularly some of the bowlers after the lengthy period of activity they would

have had. Yeah, I can completely see where Catherine's coming from having been a player that consistently got rested against the lesser teams. and it's really frustrating. She could have probably had another 100 wickets to her name, and we would be having different conversations. So I do completely understand where Catherine's coming from. I just think post-hundred your likes of Lauren Bell,

who might just be carrying a little niggle, who's played a lot of cricket, maybe a great time for her to be rested. But will Nats have a brunt play with Charlie Dean captain? They're all questions that Charlotte needs to sit down and have a think about. They will want to play. Of course they'll want to play it. Anytime you get the opportunity to pull on an England shirt,

I mean, I have no doubt that the girls that got rested for this test match are gutted. You know, they'll be absolutely gutted. They'll want the historic day at Lords playing a test match. Charlie Dean, Freya Kemp, Danny Gibson will all be thinking, you've got to be joking. Why am I resting now? I can rest afterwards. But yeah, look, this team is going to have to go through a journey. Will they dip in form with the loss of Tammy Beaumont and Heather Knight?

Probably very briefly. I think they're lucky that they're playing Ireland next in those ODIs and England and can have a look at a few. But, you know, a great time for the likes of Jody Grucock to show what she's about. Yep, the Ireland series in September. There's a Champions T20 in February. That's about a two-week tournament

in the second half of that month. Then a West Indies tour in, I believe it's April, where it's scheduled to have a test match, whether that goes ahead, because the West Indies test that they were due to play against Australia was cancelled. It was billed due to the fact

that they wanted to focus on their white ball performances. but with West Indies, you never know. Financially, it's a stretch for them to host test matches as well. So whether that match will take place at the moment it's scheduled to, and then the Ashes, Catherine. So in terms of the test team as well, be it so few as played, and I put this to Nazavibrun, but there is such an importance on them because if you're going to win an Ashes series,

you sort of need to be able to perform in a test match because of the weighted point system. So therefore, are you able to put your resources to make sure that you're upskilling for a test match, or be it, a very infrequent one, as much as you are with your white ball. Yeah, and I think Lottie touched on what they could do between now and then

and potentially have those two-day games, three-day games with the Red Ball. They certainly can introduce some Red Bull stuff into training. It's so difficult because it's just not the same. Duke's ball, I never got to bowl with it, but it is quite different. Yeah, not to mention different viewpoints,

different, you know, colour background, sight screens, these are all things you need to get used to, etc. So yeah, there's a lot to, there's a lot to think about. And there's also, shall I go to the WBBL in Australia for six weeks? Because for some reason, they haven't learned their lesson yet in that that amount of time away, not the England, the CA, Pricot Australia, thinking that our athletes these days, in this day and time with how much is required of them, that that amount of time is okay, It's not. It's not okay. Some franchises have it spot on. The 100 is a spot on amount of time.

The IPL has become a better amount of time. You have to make it realistic when it's at the other side of the world for some people. So there'll be questions there whether or not they go, you know, not so much. There's got to be that focus on your mental health too. So it's a strange period of time, isn't it? And there's two series there you've just mentioned in February and April. That doesn't happen every year at all. That's almost an empty window, isn't it? And the degree to which Nats of the Brunt is able to come back and bowl? Because in terms of that one day side, that crucial balance.

Well, that's the important thing, right, about having... So when I played at the beginning, a long time ago, we had those periods of time at winter. So if you had something to work on, you need three months, right, to work on something. It doesn't take a couple of training sessions. If you're changing your arm position, your position at the crease, your feet, your alignment, that takes months.

So me and her have had a discussion about whether it's right for our family, mental health, and actually, those aside, why don't you just take two minutes to work on something for once? Instead of bouldering from one series to another, to another, to another franchise, to another. Let's just take two minutes. and let's if you want to learn how to be even better

because that's why you retire sometimes right you lose your spark you lose your will to get up again you lose yourself to change to find another gear in your in your career because at 35 you're like well I think I should stop because everyone says I should well actually if you find yourself with a winter you can actually reinvent yourself a little bit and get a bit better if that's possible so

it's all about the willpower and the desire to but there is that opportunity there for a few now that they're quite well paid to not have to take opportunities for money it's actually going to now be about shall I up myself and that's quite a shift isn't it for those who do have the opportunity to play WPL

and to play Big Bash cricket it's an amazing shift right we're being joined by Senei Rana who took the match winning come on in Snow have a chat Alison lovely to meet you thank you so much how was it at the end then striving for that final wicket and for you to now be at the centre of such an historic moment at Lords. First of all, I'm so glad that I took that wicket because before that all of that were

going for the DRS and I was like, oh my God, always missing, missing. Then finally I got one. So I'm really grateful that we won the first ever women's test here at Lodd, so I'm grateful for that. And just how well have you been supported by the bowling attack around you during this match? They were all brilliant, starting from Kranty God, then Saly, Deepti and Cherni, they all bowed really brilliant. So our bowling attack was fabulous.

What is it like in the dressing room at the moment knowing that you've got not one but two players on that honours board now? Honestly, we are very privileged to share the dressing room with all of them and so honoured and so glad that our two players first time they came, the name come up to the honours board. We have seen the men's players there in the honours board but now the women's are also there so really grateful for that. Do you know one player who's not on the Lord's Honors Board is Sachin Tendulka?

You met him this morning, didn't you? What did he have to say to you? What was that conversation? He was like, just stay hungry and humble and just give your best. I am here to support you guys. As a team, what can you say about the way Harman Preet has led you?

So through a World Cup campaign, the T20 World Cup did not go as you would have wanted as a team. So how has she responded? She has always been brilliant and she has always been supporting. And she always supports the young talent as well. You know Kranthi God in her mentorship. She has grown really well. And we are all grateful and hope she continues to do things. What's it been like just now going to greet your fans?

They are so lovely and they have come in huge numbers. I have already said that come in huge numbers. So they have came here in really huge numbers and I'm so grateful and happy that everywhere we go, the Indian fans are always there to support us. So thank you so much. so much. Tonight, congratulations on the victory. You've taken part in history. Great to have a chat. Thank you so much.

Thank you. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. How did a boycott Jimmy become a billionaire from posting videos? On good, bad billionaire. We're going to find out how the world's most popular YouTuber Mr. Beast made his fortune. He's buried himself in a coffin for days. Counted to 100,000 on camera. And even recreated squid games all in an attempt to go viral on the internet.

But it all started when he gave a homeless man $10,000. So is he a philanthropist re-shaping capitalism? Or is he just the king of the attention economy? Find out on good bad billionaire. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. The cricketing summer continues this week with England's men taking on India in an ODI series with all the games live on Test Match Special,

the first matches with Brenda McCullum as solely the white ball coach after losing the test job and he's been speaking with our correspondent, Stefan Scheldt. Brennan, after everything that's happened over the weekend, how are you? Yeah, I'm fine, thanks, Stefan. Obviously, initially, I'm pretty, I guess, disappointed when I got the tap on the shoulder. But, you know, I totally respect the decision, I think. It's the results business, and unfortunately we weren't able to get the results we wanted,

and for that I'm sorry. You say you're sorry, and you say, you say, it's a results business. Is it something that you expected? What the... The decision that came to remove that part of the job from your brief? I feel like I can kind of understand a little bit of 3D chess and you can kind of work things out as they're nearing the point. But I have total respect for all those that are in positions at the ECB.

Keezy, Richard Gould, Richard Thompson, the whole of the board and all those who sit within the ECB. I think it's a wonderful organisation. given me an immense amount of support over the last four years and there's difficult decisions that need made sometimes in professional sport and I totally respect the decision and I thank everyone for the for the support that I've had over the time that I've been in this privileged position of being England men's test head coach and I've had a great time it's been one of the highlights of my time in this game had been involved in for 20 odd years I feel incredibly

humbled to have had the opportunity and thank everyone that. supported us and all the fans that supported this team as well. Why did you feel the need to apologise? I don't think we got what we wanted really. I think fundamentally you want to be winning the big series. I think you and I have spoken about this already. India and Australia are the Marquis series and if you don't win those then unfortunately

you haven't quite been able to achieve what you wanted to. I thought we had opportunities against both of those quality opposition. and we achieved some good stuff over the four years, but fundamentally, you know, the results didn't quite live up to it at the back end of it, and hence the decision it was made. Do you have any regrets? Look, I think for me, I look back on the time fondly and thank everyone that was involved in it, you know. I think there's been moments where things could have turned various ways, and we might be

sitting here with a different kind of a different discussion, but, you know, I'd be. can't live with in those sorts of moments either. You're just grateful for the opportunity, grateful for the relationships and the efforts that everyone's put in. And now, I guess for me, it's a matter of sort of focusing all my attention and all my enthusiasm and the knowledge that I have of these players in the game and English cricket

into the whiteboard to try and ultimately get us in a position where we're able to lift trophies and be a great representation, not just on the field, but it's off the field for the English fans and for all those that support the English cricket to them. We've spoken a lot about the informal approach that you like to adopt. Was there a time during those four years that the informality was really suitable and then maybe after a while it wasn't

quite suitable? Yeah, look, I think there's always different approaches and my approach is pretty clear throughout and you're always looking to try and evolve and emerge and do things slightly differently and keep them, I guess, improving as a team and as a group and now there's There's times where you make decisions and you hope that they work out for you. And sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. But ultimately, I'm the one that was in charge of the environment. I'm the one that was in charge of the results and leading these guys. And if your results aren't there, then you have to take accountability for it.

And I have no problem doing that. And I've loved my time, but fundamentally the results were good enough. You guys put so much into the ashes and got a result that you didn't want. You came back, you reviewed yourself, Ben, Rob, were back to stay on. But ultimately, were you guys just not able to move on from what happened in Australia? Well, look, Australia obviously wasn't what we didn't get the outcome we wanted there. I thought we did make some nice change and some good evolution and tried to implement a few other different tactics and different sort of tweaks to the environment.

We obviously got beaten by a good New Zealand side, and again, that heaps more pressure on the results. And at some stage, you know, someone's got to be responsible for that. and I put my hand up and we'll wear that. Have you heard from Ben Stokes? Yeah, of course I have. I have, yeah. I have some nice messages from Stokesy, actually.

And in a fun, I guess, romantic kind of way. There's something about Stokesy and I going out together, which, you know, we started it together and we go out together. And I have no problem with that. I guess we thought that you might go out together just in 18 months' time at the end of the ashes. Sometimes you don't always get where you want, right? But that's just, that's life.

And, you know, it doesn't mean you're not disappointed, you're not a bit guttered about it, but I understand, I do understand the sport and I understand it as a results business and if your results aren't up to it, then it's time for someone else. When you got that tap on the shoulder that you mentioned and got asked to carry on as the white ball coach, was there ever any thought in your mind that you wouldn't carry on and you just leave both jobs completely? Look, it was pretty clear from the communication that, you know, that they wanted me to stay on in the white ball role and they pointed to something.

of the recent success with the T20 side in particular and we know that we've got some work to do with our one day side. The good thing about that is that there's a lot of familiarity from the T20 team now runs into the one day side. So we've got some areas we want to improve. I love us to continue to improve to become a fitter, stronger, faster, smarter team that's able to play in all conditions and be competitive around the world against different oppositions and ultimately succeed and lift trophies.

And that's the kind of ambition. I've got the enthusiasm for it. My commitment enthusiasm has never wavered. But now I guess the focus is going to be able to be put on the whiteboard side. And I'm enthused by it. I'm excited by it. I think we've got a good opportunity and I look forward to the challenge. Yesterday Richard Gould said to us that he thought the direction of travel

would be to have split captaincy across the, the red ball and the white ball formats. That would lead to a problem if Harry Brooke is potentially the next test captain. He's your whiteball captain. What's your read of that situation? Well, I can't speak for the test coach, but in terms of the white ball, I mean, I think... Is it hands off Harry Brooke in terms of if there's going to be split captains from your point of view? I think there would be lots of robust conversations throughout.

I think, you know, we're both myself with the white ball and whoever takes over the red ball. it ultimately there's going to be harmony across all three teams because we're going to want what's best for English cricket. There will be times, sir, there is some conversations and robust conversations around whether it be captains or players or staff or scheduling, but we'll have to work through. And I have no problem working through those things. I think you know my thoughts on Harry and what my affection for him,

not just as a player, but also as a person and a leader. I think he's got one of the best. best tactical brains I've seen and someone particularly who's only still relatively young and I think he's developing at an incredible speed as a leader so I love working with Harry and I'd love to continue to do so we know why split coaching works sometimes it is incredibly difficult for one person to do all three formats you found how busy you've been in the past 18 months but also when when there is split coaching sometimes one team can feel sidelined that can be a discussions over players availability, schedules, all those sorts of things.

How do you see that going forward? Yeah, that is one of the things we need to work through. There's a bit to unpick as well. It's all obviously relatively fresh. So once the test coach is put in the post, then we'll sit down and we'll work collaboratively to try and work out what is right for all three forms of the game and what's right for English cricket. and I expect that to be robust,

but hopefully a profitable conversation for everyone because fundamentally we've just got to where to get what's right for English cricket and that will be the number one motivation. Just as a final thought, how did you reflect on the past four years, favourite moments, worst moments? Look, I reflect with fondness, to be honest. I'm very privileged to have been in this position for four years to be running England men's Red Bull Side for four years.

It's a role I've never taken for granted. I feel incredibly grateful for the opportunity, humbled by the position that I held and respectful of everything that comes with it. I love some of the moments we were able to achieve and some of the times that weren't quite what we what we wanted as well, you have to wear those. But, you know, this is top-level sport and you have challenges and you have great ambitions and goals. Sometimes you get there and sometimes

you don't. But I've really enjoyed it and I want to thank you of one that has supported this team and has backed us all the way along for doing so. I remember that day you walked into Lords and you were surprised by how many journalists were there. You said that you don't tend to get that back in New Zealand. Is there anything that you wish you knew then that you know now? I'm sure there's lots of things, right? I'm not going to tell you, Stefan. I think for me, you know, that first day we did walk into Lords and there was 60-odd journalist, whatever there,

I thought it was amazing because that gives you an unbelievable platform to be able to sell the game. Ultimately, there's so many options for people when they turn on the TV or they're paying for a ticket price, whether it be football, rugby, rugby, rugby league, whatever it is. And for them to choose cricket, they need a platform, and they need an ability to be able to decide on what it is that grabs them most. And I've always enjoyed that about this job.

It's so relevant. It's well supported. It's well resourced and it's well covered. And I think that can have its challenges, but I've never been one to shy away from those. But I've also respected the fact that we have a great platform to be able to try and sell the game. And long may that continue. Thanks your time.

Thanks, Stefan. Well, that's Brendan McCullin with Stefan Schemelt, and TMS is back on Tuesday at 1045 for England versus India, the first ODI from Edgebaston. And if you subscribe now on BBC Sounds, you won't miss any of our podcasts. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. This song, when he gets to a bit,

the whole place goes. So good, so good, so good. You gotta do the arm bit too. So funny. I love that bit. We know that feeling. The FIFA World Cup 2026. On 5 Live in BBC Sounds. How did a boycott Jimmy become a billionaire from posting videos?

On good, bad billionaire. We're going to find out how the world's most popular YouTuber Mr Beast made his fortune. He's buried himself in a coffin for days. He counted to 100,000 on camera. and even recreated squid games all in an attempt to go viral on the internet. But it all started when he gave a homeless man $10,000. So is he a philanthropist reshaping capitalism? Or is he just the king of the attention economy?

Find out on Good Bad Billionaire. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.