Test Match Special - England seal series with record Lord's ODI total

Episode Date: July 19, 2026

Simon Mann is joined by Sir Alastair Cook, the BBC chief commentator Jonathan Agnew and former India wicket-keeper Deep Dasgupta to look back at England's ODI series win over India. We hear from captains Harry Brook and Shubman Gill as well as Ben Duckett who made the highest men's ODI individual score at the Home of Cricket in striking 141 off 135 balls as England won by 27 runs.And during the interval at Lord's, Jonathan spoke with both Sir Clive Lloyd and Brian Lara as the pair paid tribute to the great Sir Garfield Sobers who passed away at the age of 89.

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Or is he just the king of the attention economy? Find out on Good Bad Billionaire. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. So England have won this series by two matches to one. They've beaten India by 27 runs at Lords. 387 for 3,000 for 3, 360 for 7. 100 for Duckett, 100 for Roe, hit Sharma.

India in the game, but ultimately the chase a bit too much for them. But the Zinnings of 41 from 13 balls, absolutely crucial at the back end of England's innings. It just made that target for India so difficult. It would have been the second highest successful run chase in the history of one day international cricket. And Curran picked up four wickets, Bethel Bowl well as well, and India were closed out. I've got Jonathan Agney with me. I've got Alast to Cook with me.

I've got Deep Dust Gupta with me. Just deep, first up, Indian reflections on today in the series. Well, today, obviously, I mean, it was a good run chase, no two ways about it. I mean, in that run chase for a very, very long time. Only maybe the last 10-out-overs where it looked a little difficult for India. But good to see Rohit, after whatever's happened the last couple of days and all that noise around the team, coming out and getting another 100 and a vintage Rohit Sharma 100.

But having said that, I mean, the last, what, a month, or so, starting from that island trip of the T20 series, this has been quite a disappointing last month for India and Indian cricket. I mean, quite a few things that they need to kind of ponder over and maybe re-look some of the decisions that they've taken in terms of selection, in terms of the combination that they've played, just looking at the last three games as in this ODI series. again going with five bowlers and four seamers and not exploring the option of Kuldip Yadav in any one of these ODIIs

I mean yeah it's a little baffling yeah but then yeah I mean questions will be asked are being asked and to be fair there should be if you just win one game in the last 10 it's it's only fair that you know those questions are being asked Rohit Sharma today coming out making 138 so just quashing any thoughts of this will be his last game do you think To be fair and I say this somewhere else I was like listen all these speculations are based on media reports right there's only one official statement that has come out that has come out from the secretary of PCCI and he's categorically said what he said so I think everything else are rumours and speculations and and maybe I mean maybe things were spoken maybe not but then I

I think it's unfair to keep going on that tangent and just leave it alone. And I guess this innings again tells you he still got it in him. But in terms of performances, yeah, I mean, I think India's going to play another 20-odd games before the World Cup. And performance is key for everyone. It doesn't matter who he is. I mean, it could be Shubman Gail himself or could be Virat or anyone. I mean, for 20 games, you've got to keep producing or performing. And no bummer today as well.

He's got a player that's going to have to be managed. he wasn't quite fit enough for this crucial game today. Yeah, and what is surprising, obviously Bumra's got this knee-Nigil woke up with it. But then this series, there are quite a few of the guys who were out of action because of hamstring. And I'm thinking, okay, I can understand one or two players,

but if it's Harshid Rana, Varun Chakravarti, Washington Sundar, we saw Shubman struggling with that hamstring last couple of games, this one included. Ah, we saw Rohit as well after, though, he got his hundred. So I don't know. But yeah, I mean, obviously, boomra is a massive, massive miss for this game. Could have been a different story and hopefully so in the end because in India were like,

like I thought before as well would be 30, 40 shot. They did better than that. But then, yeah, I mean, you definitely miss boomer. Jonathan, have England turned the corner in one day international cricket, do you think? I like the way they've played. I mean, I know they lost the first game. And I'm thinking more of sort of the McCollum era, if you like. I think they've played intelligent cricket.

The first two games, I didn't do the second one, but the first two games were almost like old-fashioned one international cricket anyway, and they worked hard for that. And that's been a criticism that's been leveled at McCullum's, England, over the last couple of years, that they haven't necessarily done that. Now, if you look at who it was, it was Joe Root. So, again, you wonder if that's a wider responsibility

throughout the whole team, because that's just the way that Joe Ru plays. But I'm pleased for a colour match, he's been through the ringer, isn't he's lost part of his job. He's had a terrific T20 series, and now he's won this series as well. I think for people who know him,

will we please that that's worked out well for him? Have they turned a corner? It's interesting, isn't it? I mean, the length of the tails still worries me a bit, and if you look, you know, they talk about India and their lack of bowling variety. Well, England had got a huge amount of variety.

So you could almost get a batsman in there somewhere. Otherwise, to lose the first game in a three-match series and come back and win it shows character. And hopefully it builds confidence. It's such a fickle business one day, cricket. You get on a losing role, you can lose four or five before you know it. But to lose the first game of series and come back and win that series, a three matches is a good effort. If you looked at this series before, you can just come off at... a tough New Zealand series, doom and gloom about English cricket, everything is a horrible place.

This is a big two series because actually facing the number one side in the world and then Indian side who play a lot of T20 cricket, I was doing something and someone came up, there's four sides which is this Indian T20 could beat everyone else. And actually, England thumped India and the T20 and they've won there. So credit, well, credit's due for England. And it was, if they had lost these both series, you know, the pressure on that England all the England setup ramps actually. I think we all know that in this England set up there's a huge amount of talent. I think in all three formats, I think over the last two or three years, in particular, I think the attention to detail has been taken, you know, has gone and they haven't

got things right off the field in particular, and that's relayed onto the field. What we've watched here, and you can, you never want to then say, well, England only one because India, actually, India look really tired. There's two games I've seen them. They haven't, end of a massive IPL series and all that kind of stuff. They haven't actually been at the races. But you can only beat what's in front of you. And the way England have played, I have been really impressed.

And I think it just gives me encouragement that actually all the bad stuff we've been saying about this England side in, certainly in TestCree, actually, right, fundamentally England, I've got some fantastic cricketers. And I love watching them generally play. if they can get this next bit off the field right they've got four weeks now in the hundred and get start getting there everything lined up better than it has been i generally think this england side can go and do some really good things and that's what that's what i've looked at here but the next couple of weeks there's some really big important decisions which need to be made they need to be made well with some future looking in the future as well like not just picking for here and now in terms of the management side i'm talking about management of this england side because when i look at these players I think, well they can adapt, they can do this, they can do that, certainly in the short form game and then they've got a bit more improvement in the test match cricket but we know how well they can play. It is interesting you talk about long term actually it's very tempting to look at short term isn't it? Ashey's World Cup. It's very

tempting just to look at that you know so you're looking at one year but you really think that they should be looking well ahead. Let's go out to Alison Mitchell she's got the England captain with her. I do Harry congratulations on the series win. What for you is the most satisfying aspects of this victory? Winning. What a game then, what a lot of runs. Yeah, it was an unbelievable game. I just loved the way that we went about with the bat.

I thought the way that Beth and Ducky started the innings and set the platform extremely well. Beth, unfortunately didn't get the three figures, but I thought his innings was outstanding. And then Ducky was phenomenal as well. It didn't even look like taking a risk in the first 20 overs, and they managed to pile the score on. And then the way that Rudy and Joss finished the innings off as well was unbelievable. Yeah, they used all their experience and the Nouse to get us to a score which we could defend. Yeah, the platform being one thing, but to continue that, and Josh hadn't scored so many runs of late, so for him to come out and score at that pace,

must have been a particular flip for him and the team. Well, everybody knows how powerful he is and how feared he is as well. He's been an unbelievable T20 cricketer for so many years and one-day cricketer. So yeah, that'll be a little bit of a, it'll be nice for him to get that innings and under his belt going into the rest of the ODIs that we've got going in the future. And the way that the boys bowled as well,

we stuck at it, we bowled really well. They had a hell of a batting performance as well. We were stuck out. I was stumped at a few stages of the innings and the lad stuck to it. We stayed in the game for as long as we could and we believed the whole way. It seems to be a bit of a master strike

when you brought on Jacob Bethel to buy. How did that manoeuvre come about in your mind? I went off for an over, I spoke to Baz. Baz said, why do you give Beth a go? He ended up bowling seven overs and yeah, that was a crucial part in the game. And even though when Viat Koli was still going,

is there still a little bit of that Koli factor in your back of your mind that while he was there, there's still an outside chance for India? There always is with a player like him. He's been a phenomenal player for so many years. And as soon as we got him, it was a kind of a bit of a relief. and nice to see him walking off. But yeah, I just thought the belief and the energy that we had throughout the game was top draw. And what does this say about where you are as a team, your relationship with Brendan McCullum

and as a unit now to have beaten India across T20s and ODIs? Well, India were number one ranked in the T20s and we managed to beat them 4-0, which was a phenomenal effort again. And then in the ODIs, they were top and probably still are top. So to beat the number one side twice in the space of a couple of weeks is just shows how much belief that we do have as a side and the camaraderie that we have and the communication has been outstanding. I've said it so many times between coaches and players. Getting information onto the field has been saving grace really. Is that quite an important component of your relationship with Baz?

You can have that communication mid-match. You can then implement things on the field like we saw with Bethel today. Definitely. And they've got a different view from up there. they can see on the TVs what's happening on the pitch. I can't really see that at mid off or extra cover. You get a little bit of a gauge, but he's getting a better view up there. He's got the analyst in Rupert as well.

He's giving him different details on the surface and what's working and what's not. So getting that communication onto the pitch has made a massive difference. My presentations are starting. It's a word on Sam Karen and his bowling as well. He seems to be turning into a bit of a handy sort of part left arm spinner at times there. Yeah, he's been awesome as well for us since. since he came back into the squad really he's been a very vital player for us he loves it standing up in the big moments as well and he loves getting funky and changing things and he's

bowled really well today to get for for on that surface which looked like a very good batting wicket yeah phenomenal effort phenomenal batting effort from you all in bowling as well congratulations on the series win thank you cheers okay time for some more reaction now and ben duck it who made a fine hundred today has been speaking to alison mitchell well ben congratulations Congratulations, what an innings first of all, and the win to go with her. I imagine that's a very happy dressing room. Yeah, I mean, the win is all we wanted today. I mean, we had an opportunity to beat the best side in the world and we've done that.

So to do that at a pack lords and have a game like that, where for 90 plus overs of the day, it was, you know, either side could win. So, yeah, incredibly proud of the team. You've broken a record that was held by Sir Viv Richards. How does that sound for the highest ODI score on this ground? That's pretty cool, I guess. an incredible player so it's uh yeah sorry viv i shouldn't be going past him how much did you enjoy that partnership with jacob bethel and throughout the series with him having been promoted and asked

to open alongside you yeah it's worked pretty well you know we we put on 50 at edge basson you know i got out first pool the next game which can happen at the top of the order but you know going in today i think we've just you know we've we've been building a partnership for a while you know he's at number three in test cricket and we put on 180 at trumpbridge in that test match so That was probably the nicest thing going into this. Yeah, we get on really well as mates and feels like we're complimenting each other as well at the top of the order. At the halfway stage, as a team, you're still very wary of the capabilities that India had with the bats, given even the total that you had on the board? Yeah, like no games done when you've got, you know, Roit Shama, Virak Koli, Shubman Gill and all these guys.

So, you know, we knew that if we bowled well, I think we felt like it was too many runs and we were in a great position to win the game. But as they showed their class there, you know, they were never out of it until the very end. So, you know, we bowled extremely well at times in that and they played extremely well as well. But, you know, a big mention to Sam Carrey in there to get the four wickets that he did and show his bravery and his skills that he's used so well in the T20 stuff to pick up those wickets to the back end, have killed the game for us. What is the unity like in the dressing room at the moment having the team come through the T20s

and then now into an ODI series win given it's been quite a, I guess, a tumultuous kind of sum with a lot of changes going on in the background? Yeah, I mean, if you'd have, it can't have really gone much better than the last few weeks. First of all, the T20 guys to win that 4-0 against a very good India side. And then, you know, for us to beat that team 2-1, I mean, especially after going 1-0 down, it's just been an incredible few weeks and now we've done that it's about pretty more consistent performances

in there moving forward and we look forward to Sri Lankan now at the end of the summer Well India fought hard but ultimately it was England who won the match and won the series let's hear from India's captain Shubman Gill also speaking to Alison

Shubman Gill with me you gave it a good go with the bat in a match that produced nearly 750 runs where did you need to be better today I think we didn't bowl well in the power play to start with and I think in the last three overs, we gave way 60 runs, you know. They were already, I think, ahead in the game.

And then if you give 60 orders in the last three hours, you know, that's where I think the game went too much ahead of us. How difficult is it to contain the batters when they are going like they were on a pitch like this? Very difficult, you know, especially also with the four-fielders being in on these kind of wickets once. If you don't take wickets, you know, there is very less chance of you. creating any sort of pressure and that's what happened with us. You know, we were not able to create any pressure. And chasing is a bit different because there's a target on board,

so there's always pressure on you. There's a target pressure, but when you're betting first, you know, you obviously want to maximize your runs. So in terms of that, you know, we had a bit of pressure chasing 390. But we were, I think, right in the game up until 40 to 43 overs, but we always knew, you know, getting 130 runs in the last 10 hours would be difficult. And amazing innings from Roe-Hitch, has he shown that he still has plenty to offer for this team?

Yeah, definitely. I think the way he played was a treat to watch. I got the best seat for most part of his innings. And the way he was betting, you know, I think he calculated the runches magnificently. And how are you? Is it a bit of cramp or is there something muscular going on? No, that was just a bit of cram.

And Viracoli, a word for him as well, because also when he was still there, you must have always felt there was still a chance, but the contributions of both of those players over so many years. You could sense that there was a treat for the crowd to watch them both in the middle at the same time together. Yeah, definitely. I mean, both of them have been the backbone of Indian batting for a long period of time, you know, and watching them from outside, how they were playing was really a treat to watch.

Best like going forward, Shibman, thanks for your time. Thank you. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. What do they need in a new coach? That's quite a big question, but... The first thing that it seems as Brendan's here to do the one-day side is to be able to forge a relationship with Brendan McCullum. Because with Brendan McCullum and Mott, you had it didn't, you know,

both, you know, one side flew and the other side people weren't quite so happy with. And that's going to be the real issue to get right. Because if one side is everyone's really happy and they're winning and it's one culture and then the other culture is so different and it's, you know, a totally different and the results don't go so well. So what do you mean in the testing quite, quite strict and in the one day team quite free-flowing, you mean? Well, I think Baz is not going to change his ways

because he's quite clearly said, this is how I coach, and he's done it for four years, and if that's what the ECB want, and clearly they've got rid of him for one role, but they still want him around, and they're quite happy for that. That's up to the leadership, so that they're happy with it.

So Brendan's not changing, so therefore then trying to work out another coach who will come on his ideas to then work, and then it splits the plan, This is why it's such an important decision. And maybe, I'm going to say I'm a little bit different to Aggers, they might have to go short term for a year. They might have to go, right.

What a short-term test coach? Well, for a year or so. Because Brendan, at the minute, Brendan's contracted to the end of the World Cup, which is the year's time. So, you know, you might have to then go for a coach who can work with Brendan McCullen for that year, and they go, right, you've got, with Brendan,

you've got the World Cup, and you've got the ashes. You work out a plan, and we're not too bored about that, but they have to be able to work together but not just be mate size they can't just say be Stephen Fleming because he's a mate of Brendan then it works because I think it has been a bit too matey matey and things have been allowed to happen so this is why I don't might it might be short term for a year and then they reassessed but it's so important that this this decision is right and you think it's right that it's coach then captain and not captain and then coach I mean think that when McCullough and Stokes came together it's captain first and then they chose a coach

who's the most influential? Who's the person who really does call the shots these days? Is it the coach or the captain? I think in this test team with the current players available to play, I think it's the coach for because you haven't got one, I would say standout leader in that side, as in like someone, if you asked, you went around today and asked a lot of people

who do you think your captain at the test side, there would be quite a few different opinions and everyone's entitled to their opinion. So I think the coach is going to have to come in and then he decides, who's going to captain, I think Harry Brooke is captain really nicely tactically in all the games I've seen. I don't think it's just whether he can do all three formats, whether he can handle, because when you become test captain, you become a different ambassador for different things and whether people have to decide whether Harry is ready for that. I think on the field, he's growing up loads and interviews a lot better than he did.

I have no issue of Harry Brooke tactically captain. And just someone might say that's too big a job for him at this stage in his career. So this is why I think at this stage of this group of players, you need the England, you need the coach first for him to then decide. What's it like doing all of it? Yeah, I mean, I never did all of it. I did two out of the three. You know, it's a real, it's, you have no time off.

The one thing Harry has said, though, he's not chasing franchise cricket for a minute. He's purely focused on English cricket, which is great. He's got a lot, a lot of, you know, he's such a good player that you generally think he's not going to have too many dips in form over all. three things because he's he's so good so I'm just intrigued I mean I'm in one it's glad I don't have to make the decision because it's that that hard decision to get absolutely spot on I mean some people listen to this we say well that hold on they're two completely separate separate roles test and and one

day is but I mean there has to be that kind of working together you mentioned the culture between the the two as well that because there'll be players playing both that's what you mean absolutely playing both and then they suddenly prefer one thing from there and then they'll just say at the minute it was the one day side I got bit of this momentum going. To have an Ashes summer followed immediately by a World Cup. You know, that's both coaches wanting all their players available all the time. There's a lot going on there.

Yeah, there is. You know, didn't we do that mad Ashes in 13, so this never happens. That's bashes and then 15 years later it's back. But it's why it's going to be really interesting to see which way they go. You know, all the names have been mentioned, you know. I just wouldn't know quite a way. Like Jonathan Trott's got a great record in a tough condition, like going to coach Afghanistan, for example.

You know, that is a lot of off-field stuff to deal with as well. And maybe someone like his experience could be useful. But, you know, someone else might say that. I'm intrigued. What do you say, deep, looking in? First of all, just going back a little bit, for all these years, I was baffled why England does not do well in white ball cricket. If you look at that talent there,

whether it's T20 and ODII, it is baffling that England hasn't done well. That's one thing. So obviously there is the talent there. Then secondly, as far as the coaching thing is concerned, you know, having two different coaches, the biggest challenge is, for example, you just finished that New Zealand series

and within three days, you're playing a T20. It's so hard. So if, I mean, a T20 coach would want his best 11 because he has to justify his position, the test coach needs to justify his position and his performance. He would want the best guys. But, I mean, this is a normal. This is the new normal.

You will have these, you know, movement from one format to the other, very, very short period of time. And then you need, ideally speaking, how I see going forward a structure where there is a director of cricket who handles all the formats, and then you have someone who takes all these calls, a long-term calls, and then you have head coaches who will take calls based on the franchise they are sorry the format that they're looking at

because at this point in time if you leave two coaches to take independent decisions then obviously they would want their team to be the best and not look at availability long-term workload management and all of that stuff so it is a challenge and the other thing is all the top coaches with so much of franchise cricket around it is difficult to get those coaches only for one format and say you're up you should be available whenever we ask you to come but then you're only doing one format yeah but test cricket if you're the england head test coach i think it's it's just 12-month job you cannot be going doing anything exactly because there's too much to do and you know like there's so many i don't think you can do as andy flower said he he said i can't do both properly that's exactly my point so that's exactly my point so if you're saying i just want you for test match cricket party should be available 12 months a year then how how much are you going to compensate him for?

Yes, that really limits the field. But if you were, that coach, that means you can really do some other work. You should be really well prepared. Look at the advantage of a split coaching. Both set up should be so well prepared for both for the next series because you'll have plenty of time to go and work with some players who aren't doing both formats or getting everything absolutely perfect. So the attention to detail with two coaches should be absolutely smart.

And that's where I think there has to be a director of cricket who actually is responsible for all the formats and the long-term planning like we're talking about in terms of workload and all of that. The long-term thing, while you can have coaches who are just thinking about their job or their formats that they're looking at. So what are we looking at in terms of the time? It's a month now until the first test against Pakistan. doing, I mean there's some talk that they might have Marcus Drosthic as a temporary coach in charge of the Pakistan series. Well, there's been so many theories. They said they don't want that. The management don't want that.

Do they? The administrators want a coach to be in position. And that would be interesting. If they did that, that would then negate what Cookie said about having the coach in place to choose the captain. Because they will have to have a captain. And then the coach would come in with a captain already in place unless the captain's temporary. Yeah, but didn't Richard Gould say in his interview when he announced that Brenda wasn't there, that we're in planned, we've got plans. Yes.

But, I mean, so if you're getting rid of your head coach, you're still going to be around in the one-day staff, please tell me that they've lined something up. They haven't just, you know, surely if you're planned, which he did say in that interview, he's been, you know, they've got six or seven, all this kind of stuff about planning and that. You've got rid of your head coach, but you haven't lined up anyone to come in, and yet he's still, the head coach is still here in the system. that doesn't make much sense either no I suppose the problem was they couldn't really tap anybody up until McCullum had been sacked

because the first question the person's going to ask well have you sack Brandon yet what's his position so they had to sack it it is messy but one thing apart so let's take the off-field stuff messy what we're watching on the field

I think we all agree those players can do can over the next few years do some stuff really special because there's some good good players they've made India the great Indian side they'd beaten them well in two formats. Yeah, very successful, White Ball Month for England.

Thanks, Jonathan, Deep and Alistair, but plenty to decide as far as the test match team is concerned. And I suppose what they decide for the test match team might have a knock on for whiteball cricket as well. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. How did a boycott Jimmy become a billionaire from posting videos? On Good Bad Billionaire, we're going to find out how the world's most popular YouTuber, Mr Beast, made his fortune. He's buried himself in a coffin for days.

Counted to 100,000 on camera. And even recreated Squid Games, all in an attempt to go viral on the internet. But it all started when he gave a homeless man $10,000. So is he a philanthropist reshaping capitalism? Or is he just the king of the attention economy? Find out on Good Bad Billionaire. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, lots of fun here, but it has been a sad week.

And everyone who loves cricket and indeed sport, we'll know of the great Sir Garfield Sobers, surely. The finest all-rounder ever to have played cricket. Thitmus now from the Struckwood end to Sobers and Sobers hits that and caught in the slips by Colin Cowdery. Sobers out, caught Cowdrey, both hitmus, 161. And everyone on the ground. throne standing. What a great girl.

Ooh, he's got the shorter one. It's up again. There's bouncing on the country. Four-six is in four balls. This makes him 64. Four-sixth. I wonder where Nash is going to bowl this one. And that will just carry. Now he's going to be out. Cord out. Oh, this is incredible. Now, there's six on the trots of world record. record never really meant all that much to me and I thought well you know it could well give it a go

you get so close and I knew at that time from being an old professional then I was well seasoned player then and I knew Malcolm I knew Malcolm was going to try something else because he was trying to get me out hoping that I would miss it but after the fifth one

he thought well I don't think I want to be hit for six sixes and I knew he was going to bowl a quicker ball So I was all prepared for it. I was steps and heaps ahead of him. So when he bowled it, he dropped it short. Well, it was all over because it was only one place it was going to go, and that was on the left side. Seventry on the board.

And he's done it. Goodness, it's gone. First of all, he's batting. Many people only saw him towards the end of his career when he batted six and captained West Indies. But if you'd have seen him when he batted four, really a batsman only he was a serious player

he's the best batsman I've ever seen and those of you've seen with Richards there you are if I had to choose very little between them I'd go for Gary one must always consider themselves lucky and I think that

the important thing is that when you're born you don't know what you're going to become and I think you have to always pray and thank God for giving you some kind of ability and that you have been able to develop that ability to the extent that we're, you play for your country and I was a young boy growing up. One of my ambitions was to play. I was very much sports-oriented. You know, I always look forward to sports. Cricket in particular,

because cricket was the only thing in Barbados at the time that if you grew up and you were good enough to get a chance to play for Barbados, which was a very strong team in those days, with the 3Ws coming from Barbados and Roy Marshall, Dennis Atkins and all of those great West Indian players in the past and you know that if you became a good cricketer that it was that chance of travelling and seeing the world and of course as a young boy listening to the game you always thought one day I would like to become a good cricketer

a good cricketer I think he became rather more than simply a good cricketer, the wonderful Gary Sobers, of course, who died a couple of days ago. And who better to reflect on his life and lots more besides as well. It's great to have an opportunity always to chat to Sir Clive Lloyd, who's sitting alongside, be looking as lugubris and as fit as ever, Clive. It's lovely to see you. Memories for you. I mean, where do you start with Gary? How did you first come across Gary? Bearing in mind that you were obviously in Guyana. Gary older than you was living in Barbados?

Well in Ghana you know in those days you couldn't get a ticket or anything so we had a tree that was just looking over the boundary and outside the ground yes outside the ground and we were there and I watched him play against Pakistan and at the end of the game you would go to a scrapbook and you as they're passing out oh that's so bad that's weeks that you know and um That's how we got to recognize those players. But then after that, you started to play Entry Island cricket. And I remember my first game against Barbados,

he got me LBW for naught. Right. So he turned to the then manager of the Westinieside, Barclay Gaskin, he said, oh, I noticed your boy didn't get any. And Barclay replied, oh well he's not my boy, but he's a boy that I like, but there's a second in English. And I got a hundred and odd. I had about 19 or 18 against Hall.

Wow, Griffith. I mean, no, no Griffith, Soberts, Holford, Prof Edwards, and you know, these are the guys that did well against England. So I just, I said to myself, oh, I can't be that bad a player. Yeah. I think you passed a test. Yeah, yeah. And I, the next game I got 197 against Jamaica. And they all thought I was going to be selected for England.

I think six, but it didn't happen. But I, at least had made my mark. Yeah, you bet. What do you remember about watching Soberds from your tree? I mean, how old were you? Who I must say, well, I was at high school, so I was 15, 14, 15, 15, 15, 16. Yeah, and... It was a thing to do, was it?

I mean, that was the way the kids would get to watch? And Borda didn't have a great capacity for patrons. So I admired him because he was left-handed and so on. And having seen him, and he was always a very friendly person. And everybody wanted to be like Gary Sober's collars up, walking with a little... A bit of an easy one. Yeah. get as many girls as he could.

But it was really wonderful. It was great to see someone, you know, the way he played. He was magnificent cricket, the best I have seen. How did you know about him? Because I mean in those days, there'd be no television, presumably. So you wouldn't have seen Gary Batting. It was it just simply radio, was it? You just heard about this man?

Well, yes, there was no television, but there was radio. And you listened, you know, you're going to school and you have a little, transistor radio at night when you're doing your homework you're listening to if they're playing in Australia and you heard all these wonderful you know things about him and he was just tremendous and then you you you know in that West Indies team playing with people that you admired it was just a dream come true so I think about it saying it was he was your first Captain of West Indies, wasn't he? You made your debut and he was your captain. So how was that?

Oh that was excellent. I mean I was was he as you expected to be. I was it that there's your test debut you never played with him before presumably. No but I played against him in Barbada. Yes but what was he like as to be in the same dressing room? Oh he's quite engaging. He was one of these guys that you know when we were we were thinking our first trip was to Australia and I I didn't get a lot of runs because I had 200s against England. But I didn't make a lot of runs in the lead-up games to the test matches. And I was quite worried.

I said, Scape, what do you think am I doing wrong? He said, no, it will come in the right time. And I made 100 in the first test match and we won the test match. But he gave you encouragement. when you were batting with him, you just felt at ease, because here was the master. And I remember my first game in India, 66, 67, and I was called to play in the test match half an hour before, because Simon Ross got injured and he said, young men, you're in? in? Because there are so many people before me. And I think I didn't have time for butterflies

because we feel it. And we did very well. And I remember that I made 82 and 78 in the second, not out in the first, in that first test. And we had to make 240 to win and the two of us were batting. And he said, young man, I'll let you know when we're, you know. When we were we should have a go. Really, it's right. So it's knocking, it's around, you know. And I do what, he said, or time to go, let's go on.

And we won quite handsomely. And as we coming off, he said, oh, I'm so glad we finished this early. 10,000 guineas is about half an hour from now. And I'm thinking, he's thinking about horses. Yeah, it's extraordinary. And oh, but he was so wonderful.

wonderful person. Why was he the master? You called you photo as a master. Why? What was it about his? Because he made everything look so easy. In Jamaica against England. They had these massive cracks and I got 40-odd knot out. I think well I played a magnificent. And in the second he's he got a hundred and the cracks didn't get any smaller. No no. But and he made the bowling look so easy. He just time is it time technique yes he had good eyesight he picked up you know he would hit balls that you would have it you play forward to you it flick it at good risk oh he was just tremendously and so Donald Bradman said he was five cricketers in one yeah you know did he practice much did was he always was he was always practicing in the

nets or not a lot not a lot at all he'd do and have a net and so on but you know but he's a natural if you can get that sort of thing and he made things look easy when you're batting with him you couldn't help him make runs because he did people were for days afraid to board yes you know what about his bowling because oh excellent I only saw it on the telly so let's start with the the opening bowling what sort of pace would he have been well he was quick he was fairly quick I don't of you know a Lester King from Jamaica who was a Van Bonholder oh Van

okay yes yes he was a little quicker or yes than Vanney but swung it both ways that was a thing he could swing them yeah he used to give Boyker the rough time really and he would open the bowling against Boyks and he would get him out LBW or whatever or both caught behind or But the point is that he just believed him in his ability. You know, he didn't see him training a lot and so on and so forth. But he had a net and bowling the nets and that was it. Yeah, and then spin?

I mean, how did he bowl his wrist spin? Was that a serious thing? Not as often, but the left arm stuff he would do, you know, he'd bowl that. The wrist spin, he bowled a lot in the rest, and he's in our, in our, in dryland cricket. Yes. Didn't do a lot of that in the test matches because he, you know, he didn't, wouldn't give away a lot of easy runs or whatever, but I don't know if you'll ever see another cricketer

like him. Can't do, can you? I mean, it's when someone dies, it's very easy to, I don't know, sometimes exaggerate how good they were. I just don't think that's possible with Garry Sobers. No. Everything he did, he did well. He played football, he did well, table tennis, he did well.

He was just a genius. And, you know, you sort of judge your greatness from cigar for yourself. I wonder what the youngsters, he still remained relevant, didn't he? I mean, when I worked with him, I never heard him talk to him in my day. that sort of thing. He wasn't that sort of character. No. He will tell you like it is and hope that you just follow through and you know and do exactly as he told him. Yeah. What about his impact on West Indian cricket then? I mean what

and I mean the whole the whole region presumably? Yes well they we we thought that this is this guy he encouraged a lot of young cricketers, the Brian Lauer's and so on and everybody wanted to bat like him you know they wanted to bowl like him they wanted to be Gary Sovers you know and it's you mentioned a name there you know you mentioned Brian Lara yes Brian good afternoon I've really and thank you so much for coming to join us it's fabulous we're just obviously I'm sitting here with Sir Clive and talking about Gary and all I was going to say to you really was that day in 19 94 in Antigua, I'd never seen such a joyful celebration as that when you broke the record

and there was the great man himself. I'm sure you get asked about it a lot, Brian. But is that still what of your fondest memory? It's one of my greatest memories. Sober's maybe about I would say 15, 16 months ago was in Australia, the Sydney Cricket Ground January of 1993 and he was very upset that I got out for 277 and you know he scolded me he literally scold me in the dresser man as a young man I I never scored a hundred or a double or anything and I was so happy but I mean he put me he sort of embedded something in my head that listen you know this is just the start and when he was then Antigua 1994 just being there with him and seeing him you know what

Sir Clive, I've taught many, many times now and today. I actually wished I stopped at 365, but obviously I didn't have that, I didn't have that, I didn't have that zest, I didn't have that knowledge of how great he was and what he meant. And I was just a young man trying to do things, but I so wished I stopped at this great man's score. Do you believe him, Clive, do you believe him? No, I don't want Sir Clive to believe me because it It didn't happen, but I'm just saying that, you know, in hindsight, cigar views so was meant so much to me.

Yeah, sure. Then before and after that, you know, to just know him as a man, it's just amazing. Yeah. I mean, you knew he was there, presumably, during that innings. And did that kind of inspire you because of what he had said to you that previous winter? Most definitely. Barbados was having a tourism drive in. in all the islands. They had it in Australia back in 1993 and they were going through that two-year period.

And just to have Segarfield Sobers there and to know that genuinely he was there for me was a very special moment. Yeah. And were you, I mean, what was your reaction when suddenly he appeared out in the middle amongst all that mayhem that was going on? And suddenly there's Gary. I know. Just awesome. You know, you're speaking. I mean, I can't throw my mind all the way, back to tell you exactly how I felt. But the Trinidad kid, you know, growing up, understanding what Western East cricket meant in the 70s and 80s, I didn't see much of SIGAR feed Sobers.

I knew his records, I knew what he represented, but to actually get to that moment and have that great man there with me back in 1994, April 1994, moments I never forget. And we on radio and I am actually tearing up because he meant so much to me. Yeah, yeah.

Well, that's, that's, yeah. You're just as important to us, Brian. There you go, the next generation, Brian. Yes, Clive, you meant a lot to me too. And you have managed the teams that have been captain of. Of course, Vivian Richards, who was here with us previously. And the work that you're doing on the charity side with your cancer situation,

I am always going to be there for you. So don't believe that they're doing. one before the other. We all live as one and I'm so happy to be counted in the echelon of Westerners cricket. Great and wonderful. I'm so glad that you came and you help and you'll be there in the future. I wish you the best of luck sir. Thank you thank you big man. Thank you Brian. Thanks for thanks for talking to us very appreciate it. See you soon. Thank you very much. Cheers Brian. Well there be go. That's an unexpected little surprise. Yeah, very nice indeed. There you are. He actually he does sound really quite

emotional about that about it. Yeah well he too has done a lot for cricket and he's encouraged a lot of young people to play and and as you know we know only 5 million people it's not a massive set of people that play cricket in the West Indies and done and he has done yearman service for us and I hope it continues. Yeah 50 years since that amazing tour here by the West Indies and Indies led by you which really put West Indies cricket on the map. Memories of that? The Declaration here, Gordon, Michael Holding, Bowling, the Oval and stuff at Old Trafford with

Brian Closon, John Edrich, that was a brutal series. Yeah, in 19705, 2 we want the top team. Australia was, England and better than we were, Pakistan, so we want the front runners. And The game that was interesting that we realized that we could win this thing was against Pakistan. We needed 52 or 53, 14 overs with the last pair. And there's Derek Murray and Andy Roberts there over by over. And my accountant, Gordon Andrews from Birmingham, brought in a case of pale ale. He said, Clivevham, you're 66 or something to want to win.

And I think you do so. And here's this. So every over, I drank it at PLA. So I was inebriated. You might have been. But when we won, and Andy was stranded in the middle. And when the guy threw the ball, he didn't collect it cleanly. So we got it.

Is that right? So we were hooping. Oh, we were with, we realized then that this could be our tournament. So that's character, but the fast bowling, well that was really the series that put fast bowling on the map, wasn't there? Mikey Holding, Andy Roberts, Wayne Dan. No, they didn't play 755. 76, so about here, yes. And we had a pretty good side really, because we had a pretty good side really.

because we had Van Bernholder, Julian, Boyce, and, well, I bowled my right arm optimistic. You know, we had Lance, one stage. And we had a good side. We had a good cricket inside. But it all came together, I think, later on when we introduce other players. Andy Roberts was a tremendous... My mentor, Andy. Yeah.

And then later on, we had Croft, Garner. Yeah. He just rolled on and on. And, yeah. Malcolm Marshall. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Clive, it's lovely catching up with you.

Thank you so much coming. It's always lovely catching. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. For your comments about Gary Slovers too. It must be a difficult time for people like you who knew him so well.

that what a remarkable man and remarkable player. Yeah, he was. Just a wonderful person. Yeah. And, you know, he was ailing for a while, and we knew that he would go, he'll be leaving us at some stage. But it's unfortunate.

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