Test Match Special - England toil under the sun in Black Cap run-fest

Episode Date: June 25, 2026

Simon Mann is alongside former England captains Michael Vaughan and Sir Alastair Cook, as well as BBC chief cricket commentator Jonathan Agnew for reaction to the first day's play between England and New Zealand at Trent Bridge.Hear from England bowling coach Tim Southee who looks back on a hard day’s work for England’s bowling attack, whilst Devon Conway reflects on an incredible 157 for the Black Caps.Wisden editor Lawrence Booth and The Daily Telegraph’s Will MacPhearson discuss the long term implications of Ben Stokes and Gus Atkinson’s controversy.Plus, Andy Zaltzman gives us a stat-attack.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. How did a boycott Jimmy become a billionaire from posting videos? On good, bad billionaire, we're going to find out how the world's most popular YouTuber, Mr Beast, made his fortune. He's buried himself in a coffin for days. Counted to 100,000 on camera. And even recreated squid games, all in an attempt to go viral on the internet. But it all started when he gave a homeless man $10,000. So is he a philanthropist reshaping capitalism?

Or is he just the king of the attention economy? Find out on Good Bad Billionaire. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Welcome to our review of the first day of the decisive and deciding third test at sweltering Trent Bridge, where New Zealand closed on 361-44. So we've seen 4-44, an opening stand of 300. 17 between Latham and Conway.

New Zealand winning the toss and in benign conditions. Not a cloud in the sky and a good looking pitch. It was no-brainer Tom Lathen. To bat first. England, of course, would have batted first as well. And they made the most of it. But a wicket for Stokes, a wicket for a route, a wicket for Archer and a wicket for Atkinson. A couple right before the close of play.

Just given England a lift. Michael Vaughn is here. Jonathan Agnew is here. Alistair Cook is here. well Michael not exactly a day of two halves but a kind of day of seven eighth and then an eighth England right at the end bizarre days cricket in a way you don't see many

300 stands no and you look at New Zealand the 44 for four from that initial 317 run opening partnership I can't quite believe what I've just seen from Ratchin the shot that he's just played to Gus Atkinson good work for Bashir on the boundary did it go for four New Zealand probably say it did well the fact is Ratchin had to face

a relatively wide long hop and he tried to pull it and that's gifted England a sniff in this game I mean 361 is still a lot of runs we never judge a pitch until two teams have batted and bolden it but I just keep going back to that game four years ago when New Zealand got 5.50 and lost the game I don't think this pitch is going to be treacherous over the course of five days

if anything it'll stay pure for at least three and a half of those days unless the clouds roll in and it starts to swing but I'm not too sure whether that's the forecast and it's safe from what we've seen. At least 475 plus would be part on this pitch that we've seen today. So England, with those last two wickets in the last couple of overs, have got themselves back in the contest. And the new ball is only 4.1 overs old as well.

Yeah, and that last delivery that did for Henry Nichols, a bit of pace from Joff for Archer, a bit of extra gas. And if he can crank it up in the morning and England can bowl New Zealand out for around 4.50. Of course, they're going to have to bat very well. You look at the New Zealand attack, no Jameson, no Matt Henry, Mitchell Santa coming in for his first game, a couple of guys that have not played any cricket. England will have a chance of posting a big first inning score,

but first and foremost, they need to get those six wickets tomorrow morning. Today's sometimes in cricket just have an inevitable unwinding. You know, you turn out this morning, both captains, desperate to win the toss, it's not a cloud in the sky, the pitch looks good, it looks absolutely perfect for batting. Is it sometimes just just? almost impossible to change that narrative? Can you do something about it?

Really seriously do something about it? I think in recent times in the last couple of years, I think we arrive most mornings of the first day, and we kind of look at the pitch, and more often than not, we're kind of going probably quite a good toss to lose. You don't want to make the call. This was an absolute, you had to bat first.

It's dry, the conditions are perfect for batting, and then the game started, and it just looks so good for batting. We've seen at Trent Bridge over recent, times that the ball can start swinging around. I guess if it does it, it'll be a little bit harder because the snicks are carrying. It's not that it's a really slow debt. The ball's been going through quite nicely.

But yeah, it just felt that whoever got the opportunity to bat first, I would suggest would have ended up with around 361, probably lose four wickets. And I think England may have got a few more. If Conway and Latham had about it another hour, that probably would have been 399, 400. And it just shows you in test cricket. If you're hanging there and you just keep going. you don't always get your rewards at the start of the day, but if you keep pounding away and you keep your attitudes right,

you get your rewards at the back end, and England have done that today. How did you see the day, Jonathan? Well, yeah, I think it was a good old-fashioned test cricket, much of it, wasn't it? You know, two opening batsmen, not particularly flashy. I mean, I do like watching Conway play, I must say, I think he's driving. Driving is immaculate.

It was the real memory of that double hundred at Lord's that he got, too. The beautiful cover drives. I mean, he plays it very nice. but you know it was good old-fashioned just you know try and nail it down the thing is for new zealanders to come here it's a bit like us being like michael both these two being ashes winning captains it kind of it's a it's a peg well if you're a new zealand captain who wins in england that's the same sort of peg and that's what tom latham's got and you know he you can see really that is a great driver for him they've only won here twice before and what an

opportunity that they have to to really give this team a bit of a legacy you know and it just looked they batted that way and then there were a couple of little inexperienced explicable shots really Conway himself really odd that he should play a shot like that he just lost Latham

new batsman comes in the new ball I think was six overs away and he just slogged a catch into the deep and walked off I mean like watching

England in the ashes so that was rather so that was a bit odd and so too was Ravindra's I didn't think the bowlers really did anything wrong

I don't like that short pitch stuff and I'm always quite glad and it doesn't work because it sort of proves the point didn't they have

to go for it at some point in the day. You can do other things. You can hang it outside your stump. You can do other thing. Running in and bowling like that is just kind of absolutely last resort, isn't it? It happened after tea, so they reserved it for after tea. I would argue this should have gone to it sooner today. Well, you can do that. Maybe if the bowlers, perhaps, we've got a bit more energy, perhaps, or whatever. But it's just such a, you know, to have to do it yourself. To see Gus Atkinson doing it, Guy, Giacsackinson, is a skilled bowler, pitches it up and nibbles it around.

run up and bold bounces. I think it's a rather sad tactic actually. I actually thought they were a bit unlucky doing that tactic, do they? I reckon there's at least three or four chances where both Latham and Conway, who is a justified tactic if a bat is playing the shot. And you can see in their mind, both of them weren't any bouncers go. They were taking it on. And whether there's one to Bethel where top edge from Conway landed just in front of him, almost got run out, actually, because he had cramped when he'd chase it down.

I can remember three or four. another day that could have gone. The hard thing is, is knowing when to stop to do it. Because the one thing, it doesn't matter who's batting. When they're taking it on, it goes for runs. And actually, after T, they scored 70 runs in 11 overs. But they were creating chances where, let's be honest, before that first four hours, there was barely a player missed, one edge from Latham.

So I didn't mind it there, but it's almost in your mind is the captain, you think, I can only do it for a short period. The argument is before T, you could reset at T. Yeah. If you did it before T, it didn't work. Get off, have a break, and then you start from scratch. Yeah, the one criticism about tactics today that I look down and think,

what worked at the Oval, brilliantly, and what worked for England at Lords very, very well, the keeper stood up. England not once a day had the keeper stood up to the seamers, and it's probably because of the four quicks that they've picked, they've picked Joffra, you're not going to stand up to Joffra. Josh Tong, you're not going to stand up to Josh Tong. I guess the two that you could,

is Gus Atkinson and Ben Stokes, very difficult. but an Ollie Robinson-style bowler you can guarantee when England get the chance to bat Blundell will be up to the stumps probably not to O'Rourke but to every single other New Zealand seamer and that's going to be interesting to see

on this kind of pitch when the bat's back in his crease and you're bowling full of length with quite a straight field you know all it needs is a little bit of nibble as we've seen in the first couple of test matches so that's the one thing I looked down and thought the one tactic that we've all been praising for the first two test matches has been that and we've not

seen it once today. You both of you, captain England, a lot. When you lose a toss on a day like today, A, does your heart sink? Yes or no?

No? You're not happy, but you kind of get on with it. Some of the great wins is when you've lost the toss and you've been put in, and when you're in the field, when all you want to do is bad.

Okay, so you said, you watched the day's play on fold, you said that there was barely a chance. So what are you thinking as a captain in those situations? I think it's a great insight into your team and people looking at the team like there's certain moments today

where I looked in and thought actually do you fair play to them? You wouldn't have known there was a 251 partnership. You never ever look at your absolute best when you're 300 of the norm. But do you know what? They stuck at their task. The bowlers did what you had to do and sometimes it's a bit of a free hit sometimes

on a wicket like that when it's that good and it was that good today. It might play a slightly different later on the game, you just bowl. You know you're not going to get loads of wickets. A bit of a smile on your face and you almost have that attitude to it. Look, it's hot, it's fun. And you just try and make a bit of a day of it knowing you ain't going to bowl them out. England got the rewards for that in those last couple of overs.

Yeah, I mean, I go back to the start of Basbo where, you know, England really wanted to be playing on these kind of pitches. They almost had an aura. Right, we'll chase down whatever you're going to get. And we'll create chances in the field by being really funky. and we'll have this aura about a kind of group in the field. I didn't see that today. You know, I've seen them a bit in the past where you've looked down.

Oh, they believe it's going to get a wicket all the time. I understand it because of the pitch. That probably was void for them today. But I admire this side because they never give up. You know, they might lose a lot of cricket. But I never ever watched this England team and think, oh, they're not putting a shift. You know, show down the back end, diving on the boundary.

Body language is always good. On a hot day, you could easily see play a slump or, and have a bit of weakness in the body language. I didn't see that. It was just one of those days that they had to keep going. And, you know, I think there were spells in the game where they bowled nicely. The ball wasn't doing a great deal.

There's a period where it started to swing just a little bit. And just enough thing you thought, oh, this could be, Ben Stokes got it swinging around. I thought, well, this could be a moment for them. And they got their rewards in the last two overs by being consistent throughout with their mindset and their body language. They'll have to do that again tomorrow.

You know, we've seen it at the Oval. Well, on day one at the Oval, we thought, oh, they've had a really good day. It's not as good. day is that first day at the Oval. But, you know, we now need to see it that first hour tomorrow morning where they win the first hour tomorrow morning really well, and it has to be really well. They'll be right back in this test match. There was one point that I thought they were getting really challenged today. That was when Smith dropped that really easy catch.

The ball was flying around everywhere. They went for about 70 or it was, 70 off 10 over, whatever it was. And he just felt then if, in the heat, that could possibly, they could possibly have lost it a bit there. But actually, they didn't. That shows a lot of character, I think. And I remember that actually, because I was thinking it, and the camera shot onto Stokes. So whoever was in charge of that was thinking the same sort of thing. This is, it was kind of a knife edge.

But they didn't. They did stick to it and they came through. And I thought that was very credible. What about your mindset as a batter today? You know, you're Latham and Conway, your skipper wins a toss at half past 10. Well, Latham was going out to profit from it. But what are you saying to yourself,

Alistair, when you head out there on a day like, today. Well, you're never really certain how the pitch is going to play. You hope it's going to be as good as it looks. I think it's more when you get to 40-50. When you realize you haven't really played a missed one edge from Latham, and you just think, these are the days you should make up for lords. These are days.

I spoke to Tom Latham, actually, just after the Oval. He was going on the press conference. He just asked a little bit of batting, and he was just struggling for a bit of rhythm. I didn't say anything, just talking batting. and so there'll be a day just make sure you cash in when you get that's the opening as lot he was almost just telling me

that was opening as lot as well isn't you get a couple of good balls and suddenly the series is done you know you suddenly four match four innings sorry in the series you haven't got a score and you don't ever just not contribute ever to a series and it's just that same realisation that is the opening bat has a lot sometimes

but you saw the people today you saw both Conway and Latham guys who haven't scored runs in the series and for a little bit that they weren't going to miss out really on this okay. Well, Latham, before this inning, 3-027-4,

and then you get a situation like this, you kind of rub your hands again, but actually what is interesting, watching him when he was out, because he was really disappointed to get out. He made 151. Would you have been similarly as angry with yourself? That's a stupid thing about cricket, isn't it?

Like if you would have offered Tom Latham 150 at the beginning of this today, or after the Oval, after four, low scores, he would have snapped his hand off, It snapped your hand. Absolutely take it. And yet he'd have been walking off there, disappointed. Explain the madness.

Yes. Yeah. Fully boots when he can, can you? Yeah. What about Conway's shot? You touched on it. Would you have kicked yourself for a shot like that? Or was he actually...

We saw the drinks coming on quite regularly for Conway. He looks like he's struggling with cramp at times. Did tiredness just get the better of him? Absolutely, it did. And I think after he got 100, I think he was struggling. the disappointing if he had played that shot

with Latham the other end then you wouldn't it's hard to criticise 157 but it wouldn't be as much as a talking point as it is now it's more for the game situation that you lose one wicket

you know what's the thing do not try and rebuild another partnership don't allow the opposition two wickets and they've got two wickets and over with a shot given to England so he played beautifully I think he was struggling a little bit but just on the team thing

that was a chance of reset and say right I need to be here for the second new ball yeah Conway was caught by Fisher of the subfield off route for 157 having a bit of a hackagas mentioned it earlier at deep mid wickets so suddenly they lost two wickets in

a couple of overs and then it happened again just before the close of play what was going through Revinra's mind well I don't know what was going through his mind it's a really poor shot that is you know, game awareness of, you know, a poor game awareness. What was it? Six

minutes to go, two overs to go. You are allowed to play for the close and actually he had looked quite controlled up into that point and seven off, you know, was it, 20 or balls he had faced. Yeah. I don't think he should have been on strike though, and I'm sorry, I would be spewing

Vars New Zealand. Explain. Well, Bashir, the ball before, dived on the boundary. He looked like, you know, I was on the TV highlights and I couldn't believe how long I saw it once, that's four, he's missed the ball. The only reason the ball's back

is because it hit the, the Toborone, whatever sponsor thing, you call it. And he met, because the ball went under his hand, and the only way, and the only reason he couldn't give it,

I suppose, because he actually couldn't see from that angle. So he gave the benefit, the doubt, to the fielder. But, I mean, I mean, for all the money from mine,

that hit the boundary. And therefore, they ran three. It should have been Nichols on strike. So, I would be a not. that as a side that that's been allowed to happen, but you can't legislate for the shot.

No. So he was out for seven, and Nick was out for 36 in the last overs. Ultimately, England kind of fighting their way back with four for 44 towards the end of the day's play. Let's get some reaction from the England camp now. Tim Southie, one of the assistant coaches, speaking with Dan Norcross. So Tim, what a bizarre day is cricket.

Really, really tough for the whole day, I'm sure. but to come back in the last hour you must be really pleased with the way England has stuck at it. Yeah, great rewards late in the day and I guess sets up tomorrow a bit easier than what it was looking like for a big part of that day.

But yeah, hot day, good wicket and nice to get those rewards late in the day. You must be fearing the worst though at 317 one hour loss. I mean, what was your assessment of how it went for those first like five and a half hours? Yeah, I think everyone knows

a pretty good surface. We probably went out at our best with the ball, but credit to New Zealand, I think the two openers played exceptionally well. And put us under pressure as a bow on attack. But like you said, to be able to finish the day four down and the top four back in the changing rooms

gives us a bit of energy into tomorrow. There were a couple of missed opportunities. There was only one catchdown on the leg side and there was also the missed DRS call. Other than that, how did you feel the team were during the day? Yeah, I think the field is in particular, the energy from guys like Root, Brooke, Bethel, throughout the day on a hot day and pretty trying conditions for the guys out there.

I think they held their energy throughout and it was nice to get those rewards and late in the day going into tomorrow. And how has it been dealing with the disruption? I mean with the bowling attack changing from one test to the other, how has he been over the last few days? Yeah, no, the guys have trained exceptionally well leading into this. Has been a bit of chopping and changing, but we knew that those guys were coming back for this test. So, yeah, prepared well.

and yeah just cracked on with it like this side tends to do. A word on the pitch. Are you expecting it to break up? You expect it to hold together? Good question. I think with this weather around, I'd expect it to deteriorate at some stage. But we saw back in, was it, 22, New Zealand posted 500 plus.

And both innings had it. Both first innings were big scores. So I think tomorrow the first hour is going to be very important. Hopefully we can grab some momentum from that last half hour in particular and headed tomorrow with a new ball in our hand and it makes him early inroads. Well, if it does break up at England get a decent first innings total,

show Bashir's going to be important. He was off the field for a little while. Can you let us have an update on that? Yeah, just a little bit of cramp. Obviously a hot day. A few overs under his bout, so just dealing with a bit of cramps. So, yeah, I'm sure the spinners

and the surface will come into play later on the test. The workload's finally of the bowlers with Bashir bowling, as many as he did, a couple of overs from Bethel and Root. would you hope that the pace bowlers will turn up pretty fresh tomorrow even despite the 35 degrees? Yeah, I think so. I think everyone understands test cricket's hard.

And the bowlers, they got through a few overs, but it wasn't a big day for them with the likes of those other guys been able to chip in and share the load throughout the day. So I think, like I said, the couple of against tonight will give the guys some energy going to tomorrow with the new ball in hand as well. Thanks, Dave. Best of like tomorrow. Thank you.

That's Tim Southie talking to Daniel Norcross. It just still seems strange to read it in England, New Zealand testimony, Tim Southie, in the England camp. Because last time, of course, England toured here. He was part of the keywit. And Brendan Patel. And Brandon McCullough, we got. It's the nature of international sport now, though, isn't it? Yeah, it is.

He's talking about us, we're talking about England rather than talking about his country played for so many times. Indeed. Talk about the spread of overs of England's baseballers today. Archer only bowling 12 overs today. We're getting that wicket towards the end. Atkinson's 16. tongue 14 stokes 13

I suppose having Bashir in the side means that you can rotate the quicker bowlers Yeah it's funny I mean I thought Archie was rather under bowled in the first half of the day Actually I mean coming back towards the end is obviously Hard for him and I thought the way he came back actually Was terrific with that With that new ball because he bought what three overs before

the second new ball was taken I think they're still trying to look after him a bit aren't they you know I think he obviously wasn't test match fit for the oval but he still played and got through it They'd desperately need to win here I mean, it may have been in other circumstances that he might not have played. The one for me is Bashir, you know, he's so young

and still learning his game to the extent that he, you know, he can't get in the Derbyshire side at times. And you look at the length. He just still bowls for really bad balls, bad balls at this level. They're hard to excuse, really. I mean, a six metre difference in length there was at times, six meters for a spinner. That's massive.

And I think if you're going to concede, the sort of runs that he is. I don't understand why they don't play Rehn Ahmed who probably concede more or less the same sort of thing, being a young wrist spinner, but it brings so much more as well. And that's an odd one. I do

wish with the show, Bush, they would just let him go and learn his game. Go and go and, because then I think you'd come back actually a really good bowler. He's tall. He spun a couple today. But he just hasn't got the consistency yet to be reliable at this level. Well, I think today summed up

He hadn't played much for two months. He bowled, I thought he bowed really nicely in the first session, a half. I think at one stage he was controlling the rate three, three and a bit. He was consistent. And I think I thought, yeah, do you know what? No spin on that day one was going to make, you know, it's a holding role. It's making sure the bowlers, the seamers on a hot day, like, don't go have to bowl 20 overs on day one because you're going to pay for that in second innings.

And I thought he did a deal. decent job and then you got a bit tied because guess what you hadn't hasn't bowed hasn't done the long spells and then the inconsistency came. 22 overs, two maids, nought for 97 from Shoeb Bashir today.

He went 16 overs, two maids north for 54 so yeah, it's more expensive in that third spell. Well, the player of the day was Devin Conway, along with Tom Lathen. Conway making 157. He's been speaking to Dan as well. So you and Tom were making a bit of a habit

of 300 plus opening partnerships. That's your second in five games. What's a secret to your partnership? I think it's just keeping it simple, really. Just keep reminding each other of those things that work for the two of us, you know, dialing into the partnership and keeping it simple, like I say.

You've got eight test entries and four of them have been 150 plus. Is that a part of your game you're particularly proud of? Yeah, I think, you know, sometimes as an opening battle or a top-water battle, you always try and go as big as you can

because you know that you're going to go through periods where you might not score the runs you want to get or do the job that you want to do for the team. So I think it's very important that if you get that opportunity, you go in and cash and make it big. Let me into your mind when Tom won the toss. How were you feeling at that point? I was nervous, admittedly, you know, like I think,

you know, the pressure is actually on you now because you've decided what you want to do. And I just thought, you know, right, let's just try and give it our best, you know, just try and put pressure on the ball. bowlers, build these partnerships and do these things that we do for long periods of time. So I was a little bit nervous, but I'm thankful that, you know, at the end of the day, we're sitting the way we are sitting now.

Give us an insight into the conditions out there. I mean, we're in a commentary box. We can still feel the heat. You're right out there in the middle. How testing were they? Yeah, certainly very hot. Can confirm it was very hot. Wicked's obviously really nice.

There was a little bit in it for the bowlers. You know, there was times where it beat the bat, made it pretty challenging. for us but you know we just felt as soon as that ball got a little bit softer it was going to be easier to score and with the heat you know it was obviously hard for the bowlers to do it for extended periods of time so I'm pretty grateful that we built a nice partnership like we did did you sense at all any hints of reverse at any point where we're all looking out to see if the ball would move it didn't seem to do a great deal today no it didn't see any reverse throughout our time in the middle we did see a little bit of swing particularly for Stokesy he was swinging both

ways at a period there, hit consistent lengths, made a little bit tricky for us at times. So we just try to identify those periods, try to get through it and just reminding each other that, right, keep looking straight, keep doing those simple things for long periods. A feature of your partnership was the speed at which you went. You were going at well over four and over. Were you conscious that you need to make time up in the game? Because, you know, you've got to take 20 wickets at some point. Not necessarily. I think the nature of this field, the fast outfield, allowed us to sort of like

keep that scoring rate ticking you know try to be busy particularly against the spinners as well so we didn't really look into it but thankfully that that run rate kept us going nicely are you picked back a little bit at the end in those four weekends he must be really disappointed to lose one in the last over the day

but still there's power to add have you got a number in mind and a time in mind I don't think we've got a number in mind at this stage we'll probably have some discussions tonight but a little bit disappointing and we lost two at the end there, naturally. Two very good players of ours, but we've got lots of batting to come too still.

So I think for us it's just about doing things for longer, just keep building those partnerships, and then we'll see where we get to it at the end of tomorrow. Thank you, congratulations on a great knock and a great partnership. Thank you so much. Appreciate it. Cheers. Devin Conway, talking to Daniel Norcross. Devin Conway today, part of a record-breaking stand with Tom Latham and his altzman. Yes, the highest stand for New Zealand against England

in test cricket breaking a 276. It stood since the second test between England and New Zealand back in 1930. This is the 118th. So yeah, a record-breaking partnership. New Zealand's third highest opening stand against anyone.

The third highest opening stand by a team against England. Only the second time to New Zealand openers have made 150 in the same meanings and only the second time two opposing openers have both made 150 in an in a in a year. innings against England, the other work, Gibbs and Smith for South Africa in 2003.

Looking at the recent partnerships between Latham and Conway, 323 and 192 against West Indies in December, since when four against Ireland, two and nought at Lords, 14 and 8 at the Oval. They'd scored 23 in their four opening stands in the series up to today, and then 317 today. So I looked at not just test cricket, but all first class cricket. And no team has ever won a match having conceded an opening partnership of over 280 in the first innings of the match. So England would have to do something that has never been done before. However, those four wickets in the final hour or so have brought that into the realm not only of possibility, but of the experience of this. team. 20 teams have won tests having conceded, having had 350 on the board and only four

wickets down in the first innings. England have done so three times under their current sort of captaincy and management partnership since the start of the Basball era. They did so last year against India. In fact, India got to 447 before their fourth wicket fell at Headingley in the first test last year. At the end of day one, they were 300. 59 for three. In Moultharn, the game in which England made over 800 in response to Pakistan's first innings. Pakistan were 388 before their fourth wicket fell in the first innings. 328 for four at the end of day one. And New Zealand, four years ago here in Nottingham, they reached 405 for four. Then there were 496 for five. The end of day one, they were 318 for four. So they have, this England team has experience of winning from this position, albeit they will have to set that new record for the highest opening partner. should be conceded at the start of a game by a team that then went on to win. We saw a couple of, another sort of unusual things.

Show Bashir was brought on for the 11th over of the innings. Was it the 11th over? It was the second earliest an England spinner has bowled in a home test match since 1961. So, yeah, a curious day. But England, in terms of trying to win this game, have moved from completely unprecedented to now something that they have considerable recent experience of achieving. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. He's widely recognised as one of the greatest footballers in history.

He's won the prestigious Ballandour Award five times. He's the all-time leading goal scorer in professional football. And according to the Bloomberg Billionaires Index, he's the first active footballer in history to achieve billionaire status. Guess who we're talking about yet? That's right. Good, Bad Billionaire is exploring life and fortune of football icon Cristiano Ronaldo. That's a good bad billionaire from the BBC World Service.

Listen now, wherever you get your BBC podcasts. So Ben Stokes back here as England captain, but could it mark the end of the latest controversy around Stokes and Gus Ackinson? And what could the long-term implications be for the hierarchy of the England team? Aga sat down with Will Macpherson from The Telegraph and Wisden editor Lawrence Booth. Where are? I mean, it does the whole thing. seems sort of bizarre, isn't it? And there we are. We were both in Australia.

Witness all of that and the talk of the reset and that everyone remaining in place, but we know it's going to be done differently now on. And it just seemed to be that sort of the least likely story that would break at the end of the first test match of the summer with the reset would be this. Yeah, you'd think so. You'd think that all eyes were on the behaviour of the England team after the drink-related stories from both New Zealand and Australia. It was the ECB's worst nightmare. If they win the first test, the reset begins, and within hours the story is that Ben Stokes and Gus Atkinson were out after midnight on a Sunday, Monday morning. And, I mean, you know, he's been asked a lot of questions about his relationship with McCullum.

I thought the telling detail from his interview there was Stefan was when he was asked whether he felt supported by the ECB. Zero. And he sidestepped it. And that is the issue at the moment. I think McCullum and Stokes have stuck plausibly to this idea that creative tension is fine, and that is what you'd expect from two strong personalities and that is good for the team. But there is this underlying suspicion of what Stokes would call the suits

dates back to Bristol in 2017 and that has reared its head again now. Yes. What was your reaction, Will, when all this started off? Well, I was stunned. And it's been an extraordinary, we're sort of two and a half weeks now of the crisis, aren't we? But it's been an extraordinary period, it's already a chapter in English cricket.

But you mentioned Australia, and my reaction to it, it actually is that the winter had a very has a it's proving to have a very long tail um longer than england's tail at the oval last week um but they had an opportunity in february to make a change uh to the to the backroom staff a coaching staff or even the captaincy or anyone rob key brenda mccullum uh but they didn't do that they tried to perform a reset with uh exactly the same people in posts and all of the baggage that came with that uh and the first thing i I feel is that this wouldn't have happened if a new structure was in charge. Stokes wouldn't have gone out and done what he did by staying out after midnight

if he was working with someone new. But it was in that honeymoon period and everything was fresh and it was all about getting off on the right tone. And then the other thing about the winter is that ECB's reaction to this and at this stage we could probably say initial overreaction is entirely down to their underreaction to the Harry Brook saga. Well, I was going to come to that, because, I mean, and you've kind of answered it, but did you think

that their initial statement actually was just, you know, so kind of, they didn't know the facts. It was extraordinary to put that statement out, knowing so little, and with it actually showing that a lot of it wasn't true. I think they probably had to get something out because having covered up, essentially, or buried their heads in the sand over Brook,

and then it eventually comes out in the media at the end of the ashes, so a long time afterwards, they didn't, they couldn't, the fact that there were Saracen's rugby players involved and things like that meant that they couldn't allow this to just lie there. They had to say something about what had happened, but it made it sound like something very bad had happened.

And then as time passed, they were clearly extremely angry as their initial reaction. This had happened. But as time passed and those, I mean, McCullum described it as anger turning to bewilderment. And as they calmed down and the investigation unfolded, it became clear that the crime. crime was staying out after midnight and not much more.

And whether that is actually a formal crime is unclear because it wasn't the curfew, which, you know, people did know was in place. We all certainly knew it was in place, but it wasn't codified clearly enough. So it's ended up being this situation where the management feel the players have done something wrong, but they're actually unable to pin on them what they've actually done wrong. I think the fact that it seems that the curfew wasn't properly conveyed to the players, or that they even thought that it didn't apply once a home test was finished, has added to this sense of a lack of control by the management. And that has fed into the sense of chaos around the team that was in Australia.

So where the mood in the initial 24 hours after the Rex rooms was very much, why on earth would Stokes do that? It then changed over the preceding the next few days to, hang on, well, have the ECB control this properly? And who's managing the players? So I think the pressure has moved from Stokes, to potentially Rob Key, the managing director. And also, I think the ECB has become apparent,

and Stokes alluded to this, the love of the fans, that the man and woman in the stands are on Stokes' side. He came on to Bolterday at whatever it was, 12, 25, and there was big cheers in the crowd. It was a telling moment. It was also telling that in his press conference yesterday, he spoke about how overwhelmed he'd been by the public reaction. And again, it felt like a bit of a dick at the ECB,

because he was very much saying, this is where I draw my sustenance and my support and my moral help. So I think things of public opinion has swung against the ECB. It does seem extraordinary that there isn't a Code of Conduct book, doesn't it?

When you get selected for England, you know, sort of every year or something, because things do change, that there is a little book and there you go, that's why actually what's, you must go and read that. And things like details.

I mean, I hate the idea, of a curfew. I've said it throughout this saga. If you need to impose a curfew on a team, they're swinging very wrong. They're swinging very wrong if the players aren't in bed and preparing themselves. But surely, for them not to know, with that level of ignorance to use it in those terms of what actually was in place and what wasn't,

seems extraordinary. Yes, definitely. I'm kind of amazed that when the test squad gathered at Loughborough for the start of the summer there, wasn't, you know, a kind of, almost like a, it sounds a little bit kind of, sort of W1A or something, but a sort of values, what do we stand for if we enter this new era? Because the old England team, before the ashes, we knew exactly what they stood for, but now I think it's less clear.

And if there's one thing you could criticise this management for throughout their time in charge, it would be a lack of detail and running a, McCullum, like to say, he runs a casual or informal operation, doesn't he, rather, and other people would say it's lax and loose, and certainly by the end of the ashes, it felt like it was the, it sort of gone out of control a little bit. Clearly the players have contracts,

and the way they behave is sort of entried in them, but the new curfew was a big, quite a lot of been made about it, the media, but for then that not to be portrayed in writing to the players, it's difficult to justify. Is it a concern to both of you that actually that a curfew is necessary? I mean, these are international sportsmen playing for their country, earning an awful lot of money, which is kind of irrelevant, really, the fact is you are. This is your life, it's your career, it's your childhood dream. Isn't there something wrong if they're not, if the discipline

isn't there? And there's self-professionalism. I guess that's the word I'm looking for, to make sure that you can give of your very best the next day. Well, I think you can make the argument that the presence of Stokes and Atkinson in the rex rooms at 1.30am, whatever it was, was proof that they needed a curfew. Yes. We say that they're grown adults and they should know better,

but clearly not. They must have known that all eyes would be on England's off-field behaviour after the ashes. The public needed convincing that they were a serious professional outfit and what does the captain do on the first night, regardless of the details of the curfew it's the, and I don't like the word but it is the optics, and English cricket's optics have been woeful for a long time now

so I think that's what that's what really irritated the ECB is this is why we have the curfew this is why we have to treat you like kids and in a way they confirm their worst prejudices I find the curfew issue interesting because you're a former player I haven't heard any former player

who likes the idea of a curfew I actually, I think the Harry Brooke situation was evidence that England do need one. I don't, I hate, I don't want them to have one. They brought it on themselves, isn't they? You know, that is what... They're ducking at noose or whatever.

They have brought this on themselves. And they've, they're after players, I feel. Players have got to take some responsibility. Brooke, was an England captain who, hours before leading the team in an international, was drunk enough that someone took a swing at him outside a nightclub in Wellington. And if that's not a trigger for requiring a curfew, I don't know what the threshold is, basically.

So, unfortunately, I don't like me. I don't think they should need one, but I think they do need one. Yeah. Do you have any sympathy for the board? I mean, there they are. They're trying this reset. They've had their review, which has appeared to be an entirely internal kind of review. They didn't take it outside, which is a shame. I think it should have done. But they've had their review, decided what they're going to do. And they know the optics are bad. They know what the reputation of their team is. For this to happen, does that explain them? Why, the frustration and that first statement and all the,

stuff that came afterwards. Yeah, I do have some sympathy with them. It was, as I said earlier, their worst nightmare. You couldn't have scripted a worse thing to happen after everything that had happened, gone on in Australia. On the other hand, we haven't heard an awful lot from the suits, as Ben Stokes might call them. No, I haven't seen them.

It will be interesting to get their explicit perspective on this. And, of course, they are paying the price, as Will mentioned earlier, for their failure to deal properly with the Brook incident in the first place. Though they denied this, they swept it under the carpet for several months. and it meant that the whole discussion around English cricket's relationship with booze was put off until it was too late. Had we had that discussion before the ashes, then Nusa might have happened differently,

or the players might have been told, look, you cannot afford to be seen out drunk, you can't be on that video. So this has not been handled properly. And interesting seeing the developments of the last week where public opinion has seemed to sway back towards Stokes. And I do think, are we just enabling them? next alcohol-related fiasco by doing this.

Will we ever get to grips with this subject? Do you think the public, the cricket public, did understand why there was an issue? I mean, you can go beneath the lion's all, but there was an awful lot of, why shouldn't two players go out and celebrate a victory? And of course, well, of course they can. They can go and celebrate the victory. But it's the context of all that's happened over the last few months, really, isn't it? Exactly. In that first week of the crisis, a lot of people were anti-stokes, actually.

A lot of people were saying, well, what the hell is the captain doing in a nightclub after midnight? And I think that's a fair enough perspective too. But as time passed and it became clear that the crime itself was not grievous. We weren't in a sort of, good forbid, like a Bristol situation or even a Brook situation. It was different to that. And you kind of, on the point about sympathy for board, I definitely have sympathy for board. And I actually am watching an England setup that has changed for this summer. The approach of McCollum, obviously Key is less hands-on here,

but the approach of McCollum has changed. He has addressed quite a lot of the criticism of them from the winter and the point they'd reached. So I've felt for the people having to deal with it. However, it does feel like it would slightly rush to a place and then have kind of had to backpedal a little bit. Do we feel that what they're desperately trying to do is they see the end of next summer as being a watershed. Stokes will probably finish, then McCullough would probably finish, then it's to get to that stage in the best possible shape.

Does that feel that you think that the board is driving towards? I'm sure that's what they'd like, but the issue we have here is if England lose this game, and let's face it, they're not well placed at lunch on day one, that's going to throw up all kinds of questions about should someone pay the price. I mean, this series was supposed to be the start of the post-Aches reset. People weren't belittling New Zealand, but they thought, well, England should really beat New Zealand at home, and then we'll move on, we'll beat Pakistan.

To potentially fall at the first hurdle is a bad moment for the ECB. They look at the Oval, the defeat there, and go, that wasn't McCollum's fault. They're still angry that Ben Stokes effectively led them to the position where they had to field a weakened team. And this question of stories coming out, and the question of, you know, the stuff has been written and said about the so-called differences between McCullum and Stokes,

they both seemed to sort of be surprised or, yeah, not sure where that sort of stuff has been coming from. What do you make of that? Well, they're doing a good job of putting on a United Front this week. They are doing a good job of that. But training yesterday was a lot of kind of... Cumminess. Yeah.

physical touching hugs, high-fives, that kind of thing. But there's never been a suggestion in the media that Stokes and McCullum have had some kind of blazing row and fallen out and can't stand the side of each other. That's not the case. What has changed is that some stage across that 10-match run against India and Australia, the highest pressure, their views on how the game should be played

and the team should be run, essentially, diverged. McCollum was sticking to the principles that they'd had success with, for a couple of years and Stokes looked to me in the ashes like a man who was realising how hard test cricket is

and how hard ashes cricket is and was trying to kind of bloody-mindedly dog his way through it. He used the word dog himself, didn't he? Whereas McCullan wanted England to stick to away and so they just weren't on the same page as quite as much as they were.

Now they're explaining it away as kind of a little bit of creative tension and differences and things like that but there wasn't much of that in the first couple of years. There wasn't they were, they seem to be aligned on everything. They were almost like, it was almost like Stokes' the coach was the captain's older brother

and they were kind of... But they were winning games then and actually as soon as the pressure changes you start losing games and especially those that they should have won and I'm thinking things like, you know, the Oval and so on, that's when these differences can open up.

Well that is the key. I mean, going into this game it was clear that only one thing would save all the debate was England winning and now they're up against it, aren't they? They've won two of their last what is it, eight tests. and they were both two-day affairs that they've won.

I'm not saying they didn't do well to win those games. They were a better team in both of them. But results are not in this management's favour. And if we, England, get out of this series having lost, the first three-match series at home since 2012, they normally win these series. If they don't, the end of the ashes looks a long way away, I think. It does matter if they're not entirely on the same page,

captain and coach? They're both very stubborn individual. aren't they? I can't see either of them necessarily yielding. No, you don't want them thinking exactly the same thing. You want some people to go, hang on, I disagree with that. You need to have some sort of conversation, though, sort of debate. You absolutely do. But I think they're being slightly disingenuous when they say they have no idea where this has come from.

I mean, the public statements in the ashes, particularly between the second and third tests in Brisbane and Adelaide, made it quite clear that they were looking at the cricket differently. Stokes was going on about how Australia was no place for weak men. McCullum wanted to calm everyone down and chill, chill guys. So, no, there was definitely a divergence and they're still paying the price to think a bit for that perception. But it's the key relationship in cricket, isn't it?

It doesn't matter what Ben Stokes thinks of the suits, really. But if the captain-coach axis isn't working well together, you look at all the, Michael Vaughn wrote his column the other day about the good periods of English cricket this century, Fletcher working with him and NASA, Strauss and Flower, Baylitton Morgan, and for a period the bads ballers had that

and I think they're losing it what could happen or what might do you think probably should happen if England lose this series well I think some of the focus will come on the the fact that the curfew

was not properly conveyed to the players because I think they will want a neck on the block unfortunately and that might put the pressure on Rob Key I think I don't see McCullum I think because the ECB don't blame

McCullen for what happened at the Oval. We can't judge a guy when he was, there were five players with two caps between them. So we need, so I think that McCollum weirdly his position has been slightly strengthened by this and some of the things have been said by both he by both him and Stokes and the media

have been, but we've looked after each other. So I don't think he's the man under pressure. Stokes is an interesting one. Again, one of the many questions he refused to answer properly during the interviews was his future. Does he want to captain England? He wouldn't go into that. He was very much now. I want the focus on this game. That may have been because he doesn't want more Stokes-related headlines dominating

the cricket. He needs to focus on this. On the other hand, the lack of certainty has opened the door to all kinds of speculation about his future as captain. Well, thanks to Agers, Will MacPherson and Lawrence Booth there. That's it for this episode of the TMS podcast. Make sure you subscribe so you never miss an episode. You can watch highlights on today at the test on iPlayer 2. TMS is on air every day at the Trent Bridge Test from 10.30am on BBC sounds and five sports extra. Pace-setter. Run with Josh Whittaker.

Hello, Tail Enders listeners. It is Josh Widdickham here bringing you something a little different. Do you keep meaning to go for a run? Maybe a few laps for your local cricket club pitch. Well, I'm the host of a new series of Pace-Setter, the music mix that keeps you putting one foot in front of the other. Join me every week as I curate the perfect running playlist To get you moving.

To listen, just search Paceetter on BBC Sounds. He's widely recognised as one of the greatest footballers in history. He's won the prestigious Ballandour Award five times. He's the all-time leading goal scorer in professional football. And according to the Bloomberg Billionaires Index, he's the first active footballer in history to achieve billionaire status. Guess who we're talking about yet? That's right.

Good Bad billionaire is exploring the life and fortune of football icon Cristiano Ronaldo. That's good bad billionaire from the BBC World Service. Listen now, wherever you get your BBC podcasts.