Test Match Special - England's Men: The state of the nation

Episode Date: August 23, 2026

Cricket correspondent Stephan Shemilt is alongside former England captains Michael Vaughan & Sir Alastair Cook, as well as Chief cricket commentator Jonathan Agnew to look at the current state of play of England's Test side.Hear from the skipper Joe Root, plus Brendon McCullum who still serves as England's white-ball coach.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Get more with BBC podcasts, wherever you listen. Be the first to listen to your favourite shows, like evil genius, good, bad billionaire, and You're Dead to Me, with a subscription to BBC Podcasts Premium on Apple Podcasts. You can also enjoy a range of our podcasts ad-free with an Amazon music subscription. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. England will be getting another reset.

It's been a lot happening since they last played test cricket. We know that Ben Stokes retired during that final test against New Zealand at Trent Bridge. Bender McCullum, a couple of weeks later, was sacked as test coach, although he's staying on in the White Bull role and he's still, or he has still been here in the country. Stephen Fleming is the new test coach, but he's not here for this series against Pakistan. Marcus Triscoth, it remains as the interim coach. And Joe Root has taken on the captaincy. again to reflect on all that

two former England captains in Alistair Cook and Michael Vaugh and Agnew and Agnes I'll start with you are you happy with where we've landed after all the chaos of the summer so far and even the winter with where England find themselves now with Joe Rupbacker's captain with Stephen Fleming as the new coach but not

here and not starting until South Africa in the winter what is the situation that England have now what do you think well I mean there's There's so many strands of this, aren't there? I mean, there really are. Are we happy with where English cricket is right now? No, we're not. I mean, it's pretty shambolic, isn't it? There is a new coach, but he's not here.

And we don't know why not. But I would have thought, if you accept a job like England coach, and there's a certain, there was a lot of urgency about it. And in fact, the ECB said when they fired McCullender, they wanted the new person in before this series, didn't they, in time for this series. Well, that hasn't happened. I think they've got who they wanted.

and I think Stephen Fleming will be a good man for this job, bearing a mind the chaos really. You can go back a year, I think. I mean, the warning signs were there for a while that this team, the England team, was out of control. So Mike Atherton used the term out of control on his piece today in the Times. Certainly it wasn't in control, was it, on or off the field.

And for me, the Oval Test match last year against India was a massive... a massive red light, the way they lost that game. And I'm not saying that they didn't seem to care about it, but they didn't seem to care. I remember interviewing Harry Brooke after it. And you think, hang on a minute, you should have won that series. And this is, we've got the ashes coming up.

It just seemed that there wasn't the discipline that you expect and what the public expect, the fans expect, of an England cricket team. That it was unprofessional. And that's an awful charge to level at a team. And when I talk about this, I always go back to the start of McCullum and Stokes and how exciting and what a breath of fresh air and what a massive Philip it was for a while. It was brilliant.

And it's hard to imagine another combination having actually being able to achieve that. From where they were, and interesting talking to Joe Root today, captain, I remember interviewing him at Grenada when it was all over for him. and he was just gazing vaguely I mean he was broken he was absolutely broken the team was broken

and yet very much the same players were lifted up by these two and it was fantastic the problem was and I think to be fair and I won't fall out with a few people listening now but I think most of us

were flagging up issues quite early on in Basball and we got told to shut up because we're old and old-fashioned and behind the times all the stuff that you get leveled and social media. Well, actually, you know, the signs were there.

The signs of how it would probably end were there. And that's a shame, because I really think that if those two, particularly with Ben as captain, had actually been open to other suggestions and open to other thoughts and other ways of playing. And he heard again Joe Root talking about the ways that test cricket is multi-level. There's so much more to it than just playing in one way.

We're not going to be labeled to play one way, is what he said, isn't it? And that's absolutely right. You have to be dynamic. You have to move. You have to be adaptable. But there was no question of that happening with that last regime. No, thank you. If you don't like it, tough.

And if you're not going to play like this, we don't want you. And that's not right. That's not the way you're going to succeed in test cricket. So am I happy with the kind of the situation? Well, no. But given that we are where we are, I think that a root fleming combination is the right one, particularly Root's case, probably quite short term, but to get through some big series to come, because I think there'll be more maturity.

And I think that they, I think hopefully England will adapt. They will, they don't accept. And he made a point to me today. And he was absolutely right to, and again, music to the ears. There's nothing wrong in test cricket with having to play. defensively sometimes it's part of the game you soak up pressure there wasn't there was none of that before it was just we don't we're not playing for drawers you know and Ben Duckett saying bring it on we'll chase whatever they you know it's

nonsense it's you look back at it it's just cobblers go on John well it's haven't taken a breath here I guess well I haven't finished yet got a right sweats on here John I know it's it but I think it matters and it means a lot and and I just think that it's a great shame the way it ended but it was kind of always going to end up like that it was going to be a shooting star and it just ended you know kind of in in in flames like what are musk's rockets right thanks everyone for your time i actually i was just picking up a point you said i don't think they did get who they wanted i think they wanted flour well they're never going to get flour oh they might have done but i

think that's i reckon they sack mccullum and the next day they rang and in flower i reckon that's who they officially but he was never going to do it you don't know but i said they they ended up up where they wanted. I don't think they did. I think they wanted Flour and I think Flour couldn't do carry on doing the IPR and his other jobs and do the England job properly. So he obviously ruled himself out. So I think

if you ask Rob Key, who is his first choice I think it would have been Andy Flour. Just on a couple of things and I totally agree with you, John, by the way. I remember in 2003 the test match at Lords when England lost all those wickets to the bouncer theory.

Nathan Line had been stretched off. And on the podcast, at the end of the day's play, I think we all had a rant. And I remember walking out that venue and getting lambasted by a group of England fans. You're negative. You want England to lose. And I'm saying, no, I want England to win. But they're not going to win playing that style of cricket over a long period of time. It's just impossible to play so high risk against the better sides and win. And I guess two or three years later, you kind of look at, in particularly now,

and again, you used to a word like common sense and maturity. if you look at the last week in Darwin, the way that Bangladesh arrived and play against Australia, and this is not a great Australian side, and this is why I'm still frustrated from the winter because I watched that test match last week, and all right, Pat Cummins, I think he got it wrong at the toss.

Decided to have a bat on the green top. Probably thought we'll see off the first session and we'll be fine. Well, they get bowled out because Bangladesh just bowled eight odd miles an hour, pitch up, disciplined bowling. They then got the bat in hand and he batted for 138. by leaving the ball, the new Cuccaborough ball, Hazelwood start, leave, leave, leave,

you then earn the right to get that score because you've gone through a few tricky periods. So that was right, they caught well, Bangladesh, better than Australia. And it was last week that I kind of watched, thought, oh, what an opportunity missed. Absolutely. For all these England players, and for Bazma Cullum and for Ben Stokes, because they're obviously never going to get that opportunity again. Again, on common sense and maturity. I love the fact that England named their side to the players.

toss. Why would you name your side two or three days out and in some cases it was like this is our team you can have it, you can do what you want with it, you can you can analyze to the depth of what we've given you. Why would you give the opposition the chance to see your team before the test match starts? You've got half an hour before give them the team. So that was a little bit of maturity straight away from Joe Root. Got rid of the curfew again maturity. You want you want players to make mature decisions out in the middle. where you pick players who you think are going to make mature decisions off there.

And if they don't, guess what you do? Get rid of them. So this is where we've got to. Let's go back to how we've got here. And we spoke a lot about Ben Stokes' retirement at the time. And then we kind of knew after Trent Bridge that something was going to change. And maybe the spotlight was on Rob Key, but it ultimately fell on Brendan McCullum. And he lost the job as test coach, and now he's the white ball coach only. the question is, did that decision come too late? Should it have been made in the spring?

Why did Brendan McCullum only go after a test series defeat against New Zealand? Because if that was the starting point that he has to go because England have lost against New Zealand, well, that was always going to be unsustainable, wasn't it? That you couldn't just go series to series of this guy survives if we win or this guy goes if we lose. I honestly think, Steph, it was as simple as that fourth afternoon at Trent Bridge. you know I think if you're on the board at the ECB

and you're seeing England go 1-0 up in the series at Lords the pitch wasn't great but they win the test match 1-0-0-0. And then you go to obviously the Oval on the back of what happened five changes, Ben Stokes and Gussackinson out of the side. I'm sure if you're a board member of the ECB

there's a few flashing lights about the curfew situation there has to be. And then you see the way that the England team play on the back of New Zealand. What, we're down to their Zach Fox is about the 8th Trois Seema you know bowling 8 odd miles an hour with a keeper stood up and then they went out and played in that fashion on the fourth afternoon. You're not doing your job correctly if you're on the board of an organisation.

If those flashes lights don't hit you hard enough to go, we need change. So I think it was that fourth afternoon against New Zealand at Trent Bridge was the final nail. What we have to look at now is are they in a better position now to what they were then? I think they've got a fantastic leader. I think they've got a tremendous guy in Stephen Fleming who will bring a great, deal of sense. It'll be a great deal of maturity. I've seen that already in this selection where, you know, Ollie Pope's come

back in. He's played 65 games for Ingen. We don't want to put Ollie Pope in the scrap heap, but do we want to see Ollie Pope back at number three? Probably not. But at five, six or seven, I'd like to see Ollie Pope get a chance again for Ingers. So that's a sensible selection. Going to someone like Dan Lawrence, who's got five centuries

this, some is in form. We need someone who can bowl a bit of off-spin or a little bit of part-time spin because, you know, that's the downfall of Ben Stokes, not being to decide, we'll be showing Bashir. You know, to have an out-and-out spinner in a side that doesn't have an all-rounder. It's going to be very, very tricky for someone like Bashir.

So, again, a sensible decision. You know, Olly Robinson, Sam Cuck, similar kind of bowlers. Ollie Robinson was going to become our father again this week, so they needed a backup for him. The baby came early, so he's been able to play. But Sam Cuck, I'm sure, would have played. You know, that style of. I think what we'll see in Stephen

Fleming over the course of the next few, the talk of airspeed, and England have gone all out, you know, in this pace. pace, pace. You know, some of the best teams in the world have a couple that just ball around 80 miles an hour and they're wobble it and they've got real skill. We've seen that already today. And Ollie Robinson, we saw it for many years with Jimmy and Stuart Broad. So I think if you look back to when Stephen Fleming was the captain of the New Zealand side, he had Shane Bond when he was fit. But other than that, he had kind of little dobbers. You know, Chris Harris ball in Deer Alps with the keeper stood up with clever fields. And I think we'll see a lot more of that. So I think we'll see a smarter cricket team. team, but it's how you work

without a world class spinner and how you work without a world class all-rounder. And that's going to be the key. I like the fact they said that Sam Curran would have been in contention. We'd not have had the workload of recent signs. They're a bit worried about his body. So they've identified a scene bowling all-rounder that they could use.

He brings a good batter in different positions. He also brings the skill of swing when it's swinging. He brings the skill of the keeper stood up with a bit of wobble at times as well. So I've heard and seen a few things over the last couple of weeks I've gone, okay, there's a bit of sense coming back into the England test match team. And Michael, you've been chatting to Brendan McCullum during the 100 final reflecting on his time as England coach.

I had a great time. I had four years of trying to achieve something alongside Stokesy and, you know, we had some really cool moments and we achieved some really cool things. And, you know, ultimately all good things come to an end. And I'm very much at peace with it and I'm content. And I believe it was the right decision. And I'm grateful for the opportunity I had rather than anything. else. I know that Flemm will do an amazing job. Stephen Fleming in the role as England test coach and excited for Joe Root as well and now it's a fresh opportunity for those guys.

Is there anything that you would have done differently now you look back on it? Oh look I think there's always things you do differently, right? There's opportunities. You make decisions, you make plays. The thing, just because you would do them differently, it doesn't mean you regret them. I think you make decisions in the moment that you think you're going to be right and you think you're going to work. Not everyone is. going to work out like that. But you live with that and you're at peace with it. And, you know, in the end, I think we were able to take over a team when we did

and kind of go on a bit of a journey. And I think we won 27 test matches or something during that time. Yeah, we lost a few along the way as well. And ultimately, we were able to get to the level that we wanted and winning those big series against India and Australia in the ashes. But, yeah, as I say, I'm grateful for the opportunity. You mentioned those big series against India and obviously the ashes

What is it you're going to pass on to Stephen Fleming Your good mate who's now the test match coach So in England next time they play the ashes next year Or in four years time down under They're going to be better suited to make sure Those ashes stay here in the UK Well if we knew that We'll probably still be in the job more years

I think from the thing like Flam's brilliant Stephen Flemm is one of my best mates He's an incredible thinker of the game He's a real leader of men as well when people have asked me about kind of how what will Flemm be like I say he'll be like me but he'll be better and what I mean by that is I think

there's a lot of good with English cricket at the moment there's a lot of good in that test side of the moment if you look at the fast bowlers in particular development emergence I think is an exciting phase for Stephen Fleming and Joe Root to be able to take the side forward I think there's some young, talented players, batters that you can surround the likes of Harry Brookes

and Joe Root with to be able to move the side forward. Ultimately they'll do it their way and quite rightly. But I think the opportunity is enormous. I know you're a betting, man. What odds would you give me now and Ben Stokes playing in next year's ashes? Probably the same as you being coached for it.

So zero, no odds? Oh, look, Stoic's a good mate of mine. I know he's a good mate to yours as well. And Stokesy's very appeased with the decision he made. And I think, you never say never in anything in life, but when I spoke to him, he was very content that he had an incredible career, one that he was really proud of, and he was happy the way he bowed out. So you never say never in anything in life.

But for now, I would say that the odds are probably against it. That's Brendan McCollum talking to Michael Vaughn during the 100. Like me, but better, Brendan McCollum said about Stephen Fleming. One thing that I thought, Alistair, about the appointment that England had to make about a test coach was someone who could work with Brendan McCullum, and you would have played for England at a time when there were split coaches, and England have tried it a couple of times, and it hasn't always worked.

So how important is that relationship between Fleming and McCollum? Well, I said at the time, as soon as they announced that McCollum was the one-day coach, actually that is the hardest thing, that the person must be able, a strong enough personality to be able to handle McCollum, because what happens with the split coaches, one side, the test side, or the red ball side or the white ball side, One of them does better than the other. So therefore, the side likes playing for the more,

the players like playing for the more successful side. Therefore, likes that coach a little bit more. It happened with Mott and McCullum, even though Mott won the T20 World Cup, actually the test side started at the start of McCullum and Stokes era, started this momentum and everyone loved playing under Bazz, and it put Mott under pressure. So that relationship was key.

So you can understand why Rob Key made Fleming coach, because that professional, And the professional and a personal relationship was already there, as Fleming and McCullum are already played together, but also in business together as well, which is, I think, a really important thing when you're not just friends, but in a business together

where you actually have to make some really tough decisions, I assume, on certain things. So that relationship there, so I can see why Fleming and McCollum should work. I think, as always, it's going to be very, very hard to manage perfectly because there's too many, it's such a hard thing to get right.

There's a T20 World Cup. the World Cup coming up and then he got the ashes, who's going to get the final say? And where Rob Key, who has been quite scattergun, I think, in his approach, has to really, he's the one who has to really tighten up and get this thing really straight and really organised because you have to be so organised to make sure that both coaches are happy and there is a path forward. And I think that's the one thing I think you could say about the McCullum and Stokes era. There didn't seem to be much future planning at all. They went from the Silverwood COVID area where it was a nightmare, impossible to get right. And it's where they tried to take players in and out and try to plan to, we're just going to plan for the next week.

And it's almost costing. You go back to that, not after the ashes, we're talking about the review. There was this review. And then a week later, a month later, everything's changed. There has to be some really good, clear, decisive future planning for this to work really well. I mean, it's a harder era now than it ever has been to manage players. and the reason with that is there's so many other leagues

that these players playing as well so you look at the Joffar Archer situation in the IPL this year that'll happen again I would think next year next year we've got an Asher series a World Cup after that's an interesting thing Basma Cullam will want his whiteball players

to be playing in the games leading into the World Cup Stephen Flamin you look at what England have three test matches here three test matches in South Africa two test matches in Bangladesh one test match against Bangladesh next

and then five against Australia so it'd be a bit easier then because the ashes happens and then England just go into a long period of white ball cricket. They do, but again it's managing your players and your workload

then they go into the 100 straight after the ashes. The ashes finishes on August 2nd next year. It starts on August the 3rd to 100s so it's not just managing the players and I can hear the fans out there going yeah but it is purely about England

this is a different era of cricket that players will go and play some of the franchise leagues around the world they earn a huge amount of money doing so and you have to manage them as well as you possibly can but fundamentally I'd be staggered if the players aren't kind of getting together and go, look, we've got a great opportunity here.

This Australian side next summer is an ageing team. They're probably going to make two or three changes by them, but you're going to be up against an Australian side that hasn't won here since 2001. An Australian side that we know has just lost to Bangladesh. They're an attack that could come here with bowlers in their late 30s to run in and bowl in five matches in the space, what, seven weeks, a batting unit that we know he's vulnerable. I'd be staggered if the players aren't getting in the room going, come on,

let's just get together and really focus on England's test match team and the 50 over the course of the day. And if one or two of you have to miss a series or a franchise league here and there, just to make sure you're ripe for that Ashes series and you're ripe for that World Cup in South Africa. Because England's style of play will suit South Africa. They play an expansive game. Those pitches will come on.

They've got a load of pace in their attack. So when you think about when Bazma Cullen took the one-day job, at the start after Matthew Mark they went to a champion's trophy and went all out attack in subcontinent conditions got selection completely wrong that attack or that style of approach will probably be right for South Africa

and I think that's the style of cricket England play so I'd be amazed at the players and Joe Rue, Harry brought the captain quietly just over dinner at night saying to Geoffrake, come on Joph just buy into English cricket completely for the next year because you want to be on that podium

You know, in a year's time, you want to be on August 2nd, on the podium with the ashes in your hand. And you want to be in the latter stages of that World Cup in South Africa. You know, people don't remember franchise winners. They may do in time, but at the minute, we know the Superjants won the men on Sunday. We know the Rockets won the women's tournament. But over time, you really have to gather your thoughts to remember your winners in the franchise league. But for an England cricketer to win an Ashes and win the World Cup, you get remembered forever.

And this group of players, on what they're going to play against, have got an incredible chance of doing something very, very special in 2027. What about that balance, though, Agers, between McCollum and Fleming and that relationship? Because it strikes me that over a long period of time, England have struggled to balance red ball cricket and white ball cricket and be successful in both simultaneously. But you have made the point that the ashes are done by the start of August, and there is a long time.

I mean, the World Cup isn't what children. October, November, is it? So, you know, they are going to be very much in white ball mode and Brendan McCullum can have his players.

So I think it'll work well. I do think, by the way, I think McCollum will be a really good whiteball coach because that's his style of cricket. You know, that's how he used to play himself. He called him a one-dimensional cricketer is unkind.

But that's the way that he plays. And so he's much better suited to that than I think he used to test cricket because, again, that was a one-dimensional. approach that he introduced to test cricket and I don't

well it doesn't work it doesn't work it might take a few by surprise early but as we see the good teams work you out and so I know I'm excited about about Stephen Fleming I mean I've watched him play a lot earlier in doing doing this job

it reminds me of cookie in a lot of ways I mean he was a traditional hardworking left-handed opening batsman nothing flash he knew what he had to do and he worked hard, all the old qualities, if you like, of a test match opening batsman. But he's brought with that now, his experience of franchise coaching too.

So that sort of modern pace, if you like. And I do hope that that that is one part of what we've had recently that is retained, that they are still positive, but you just do it at the right times. And you do retreat at times. That's what's needed. So that's why I think Fleming and root together will do a good job, because Ruta's talked a lot about that positive stuff and wanting to retain that, that's great.

But it just has to have a check and a balance and that didn't happen over the last couple of years. He must, I mean, he's coached or been the head coached, the leader of the Chiangai Super Kings for 17 years. And to do that in India and to manage players too. Manage all different players around the world. Select the right kind of players in the auction. And more importantly, you're not only managing down in India,

which is all your players and all your staff. You're managing up. So you're managing all the owners and the expectations. You know, the one thing that he had in India that's, you know, this is why I'm really intrigued by the relationship with Joe Root because he's had MS. Dony, who arguably is probably the greatest ever whiteboard captain. And he's basically had a captain that he knew

as soon as they went onto the field, he just left it to MS Dony. And he just stood at, sits in the dugout and just watches. But what he does behind the scenes in making sure everything's organized, everything's right, very, very consistent in. selection. And that's all I can judge him on as a coach. Throughout his years at Chennai, they've been renowned of basically the 11 that they start the tournament with.

You'd be staggered if they changed the team after six or seven games. Even if they lost two or three, he's very, very consistent with the players that he picks. So if you get in that team, and, you know, I guess this, you could argue, is Stephen Fleming's first team because he's been involved in selection. I think from what we see here, this would be what we see going forward. I think Shoi Bashir will only come in or a spinner will only come in on a really hot week Or if they can find if Curran comes in maybe?

Maybe Curran will come in and back at 7 and James Smith goes back to number 6 but I think this week here in the UK and that's really important that England have got to find a way of being back to their consistent best in the UK. We've lost too many test matches two against New Zealand

two against India last summer the Sri Lankan loss at the Oval what year was that? That was a couple of years ago, you know, this team has lost too many games in their own backyard. And to be a really good team, I'm not saying you have to dominate all the time at home, but you have to know exactly what you're doing at home and make it very, very difficult for the opposing sides to come and win here. Harry Brooks, the man for me, I want to see how he flourishes in this sort of environment. Because I don't think the last ones did him any good, frankly.

He's got so much talent. He should be scoring thousands of runs. But we've all seen headless ways in which he's got out. She's just a total waste. And you just feel, well, you don't know what happens when he gets out in that circumstance.

But you'd feel that maybe he wasn't necessarily pointed in the right direction. It's a lack of responsibility, really, that someone like him, if he played at 80% of that level of positive, if that's the right word for it. I mean, it's reckless at times. But 80% of it.

He would score millions of runs. Millions of runs. He's got so much to give. But I just think he was allowed to go off on a bit of a... Well, this is Harry Brooks, 38 games, 3,395 runs, an average of 53.4, yet we're still... And 10 hundreds. Number one test batter in the world, yes.

And we're still kind of... Understandably, though. We know what he can do. Go on, Cookie. No, no, I disagree what Ag is saying, actually. I think the environment really helps. him to start with because I actually didn't think Harry Brooke. I saw him play some red ball cricket for Yorkshire against Essex with my latter stages and I don't think he knew how

to play the red ball game. I think he started as an open night and he didn't know whether to stick or twist. He didn't know whether to defend or attack and McCollum and Stokes came in and said I want you just go out and attack right so that freed him up and gave him a real clarity how he wanted how to play and he allowed him to produce stats like that. What I think the him that didn't allow him to do was then like evolve a little bit more. So I think Agers is then right that actually so now he's got

that incredible those numbers are incredible and I think what we're going to say about him they actually could even be better but I think the start has allowed him to go right I'm going to attack he's got that and now I think he is maturing as a person he's done a really good job with that white ball team that last six months

and I think we will see now a more maturing of him batting. Yes he will get out in silly ways because that is just how he plays. But I think we, I think Angers is right. We want to see Harrybrook at 80% which could be more consistent than he has been. But I disagree with the fact I do think that start really helped Harry Brooke. Harry Brooke is a generational player.

You know, and I think we'll all agree that Joe Root is our greatest ever, in my opinion. But I said it the other day, I feel that Harry Brooke could be our greatest player to watch because he plays innings. and he's already played innings in his short kind of international career that you go, wow. I mean, he's 100 against India on the chase at the over last year was spectacular, and then guess what he does? And the one thing I'd say to Harry Brook is just make sure that you realize how good you are, how important you are for England to win.

And he should be thinking now, you know, great, great sports people, they're not just individually brilliant, they generally end up on the podium with their team with trophies. And so far in his career, he's at some good moments. great moments, but he hasn't had that podium moment. And I think for England to win an Aschie series, for England to win a World Cup, he's that good.

There's not many batterers I don't think can pretty much win a test match on their own. I reckon Harry Brooks in that group. His next involvement is becoming man of the series, you know, in big series and also consistently. Like he is that good. I reckon, and I do think he will. Yeah, at that age now, 27, 28,

he'll start to win Manor Series. And actually, do you remember, remember that series, Brooke got 600 runs in that series and I think that's... Just dominate. Rather than just like that 300

and he's still number one in the world but I think that's his evolution of becoming... I want to see him also. Shaking hands of the opposition

at the end, not out. I'm going old school. Just be that player that shakes the hands of the opposition because you're 70 not out. You're 120. Against India last year

at the Oval. If he had got 140 out, they win the game. Well, Brooke, since he made his test debut in September 2022, has more

international runs across formats than any player in the world. At the end of the ashes, Ben Stokes took him to one side to say, look, your test average is in excess of 50, which is obviously brilliant, and it almost sounds daft saying this, but it could be better. It could be 65 or 70. And I spoke to Harry Brooke last week, and he said, well, yeah, it's not that simple just averaging 65 or 70. Of course it isn't.

But the point that Stokes was trying to make was not many people can do what you can do. Are you necessarily making, yes, what you can do? do is great. What you've done is great. Can it be even better? And he's not gone ashes 100. He's played 10. You did a really good interview with him in the week and I liked him talking. It looks so surprised, cooking.

He talked about winning moments. And that's all I would say to Harry Brook is, you know, numbers are irrelevant to me because all I want you to be, Harry, is that player that Alice has just mentioned that we're talking about at the end of the series because you've won England so many moments that we've won the series.

You know, if he has a series against Australia. He has a series away in South Africa that we know he can. If he goes to South Africa, it's two big hundreds, England win the series. At the end of it, we're talking about Harry Brooke, being on the podium as an England player that's won a big, big series. And that's what he has to get

into his head is that I don't want to take away his flamboyancy. I don't want to see him back like he did at Trent Bridge, by the way, again, because he's wasted by playing that kind of way. But I wouldn't want to lose that flamboyancy, in that attack in nature. But in the back of his mind, I think it's very important

for him to realize how important he is for their team to win big series and big moments. You mentioned how important Harry Brooke is, Agers, but I guess then it's the partnership, isn't it, between Brooke and Root and whether or not Root can bring the best out of Brooke. And with you three sitting here, I can't think of three men who will know Joe Root better,

former teammate with you, Cookie. Vaughner, you've known him since he was no age, and Agers, probably you've interviewed him more than anyone else. So I guess the question is, I mean, starting with you, Jonathan, Were you surprised when he wanted the captaincy back on a full-time basis? It's interesting, aren't it? I mean, I think it's a short-term thing, isn't it? I think you're looking for a year with Joe Root to get through to the ashes.

I'm surprised, no, not really, because he's just that sort of a bloke. You know, the team's in a crisis. And so who does you turn to you, who turn to Joe Root? And Joe Root is almost certain to say yes. because he's quite old school from that perspective, a traditional cricket lover from a very traditional cricket family to be captain of England. I mean, I was surprised because I saw what the captaincy did to him.

And there were lots of reasons for that. And particularly that COVID tour of Australia, which was utterly miserable. I mean, he might have gone after that rather than go to the West Indies, where the whole thing did just finally collapse in a heap. And of course there was no Broaden Anderson. It was all strange to her that one.

So I'm not surprised that having been asked that he said, yeah, I'll do it. I'm pleased they ask him to do it rather than Brooke. Because for the reasons I've just mentioned, I think this is a really big opportunity for Brooke just to nail down and a knuckle down and get this focus on his game for a while. Will it affect roots batting? I wouldn't have thought so. He's just too good a player for that and too good to experience the player.

is he motivated by beating Australia absolutely because that is what defines you as a captain is it not to be an Ashes winning captain and he's not and so that is that that I suspect is a spur and I think he'd fancies a challenge I think he fancies the challenge of picking it up from where England are at the moment with a youngish team

with a bit of a crisis going on and leading them out of it I think he would feel the responsibility that the senior player feels for the good of the team and so no, he doesn't surprise me that he's taking it. When you and I were sitting in the bar last night, we were trying to think of an England captain

that affected gone out on their own terms and what I mean by that is gone out on a high. Yes. I've won the ashes goodbye. We were struggling to think of it. We probably went back to Brearley in 81. Is that what we think? Yeah. And we're also trying to think of captains

that have had two goes at it. And David Gow was the last one that we could really think of. That ended badly. And I came back to something that, I think you said, Cookie, at Trent Bridge of when you are England captain, no matter how bad it has gone for you,

it is an incredibly difficult thing to give up. The job that you have wanted to do or maybe dreamed of to come to the realization to yourself that for me, it is no more, and you've got to hand that job back. So then for two guys here of being England captain, if you'd played long enough for it to come round again and you felt in the right space to do it and the team was right

and all the circumstances were right, would you have done it again? It's a really good question. It must be a lovely feeling to know that you could have another go at it. Forna, you look like I've got three heads. No, absolutely. It's a good question.

I remember you left in tears at your press conference when you packed it up. Would you have had another go? Absolutely. Absolutely. You're tired and you drained and my body was in bits, and he was a real problem,

but six months later. Yeah. We had a bit of time away. I went skiing for the first time, actually. With your knees? With your knees? That was a sensible move, wasn't it, with a dodgy knee or two? Yeah, absolutely.

2009, I remember getting a call from Strousie, actually. At the start of the season when I was trying to come back, and he said, I'll get a few runs, and we'll look to get you in for the ashes. And in the back of my mind, I was like, yeah, I'd love to play, but I'd love to captains it. That was my thought, but obviously that was never going to. happen. I never got enough runs to even put myself in the game and that's why

I retired but yeah I mean I'd love to captain now. I wouldn't want to stand in the field that much or... Do it ride a cup style? Do like Luke Donald does? I looked at Joe this morning and what we had? We only had what?

8 or 9 overs, whatever we've had. 23 for 2, Pakistan. Joe didn't have to field a ball moved himself to kind of gully a couple of times and I thought well I'd love to do that just stand there and kind of maneuver the field. You've got a ball that's doing a little bit against a Pakistan batting land up. It's a bit vulnerable.

The challenge will come. This series, I think, is going to be absolutely fine. Home conditions. Pakistan, particularly with the batting hand, are very vulnerable. South Africa away will be a challenge. Bangladesh away will be a challenge. Those two test matches. And by the time next summer comes around,

Joe's just going to make sure that even though he's so experienced, you know, he's going to have to utilize that time off to make sure that he arrives next summer, completely refreshed. He'll play some whiteball cricket 50 over kick it till then as well. But when Joe Root is fresh and he's really optimistic about everything, he's going to be absolutely fine. What you wouldn't want is South Africa to go wrong, Bangladesh to go wrong, and then next summer, you know, we don't get off to a great start.

And that's always the challenge. You always look at captains when it's a good day and it's easy, isn't it? You know, when you're interviewing a captain that's won, it's easy. Oh, look. It's when you interview a captain when it's not gone so well. I just say look at him at the Oval after day one. Everyone said how well he managed the bowlers, new bowling attack. And he walks off as, you know, spring in his step, an hour and a half after on day two.

He weren't looking the same blows. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Get more with BBC podcasts. Wherever you listen. Be the first to listen to your favourite shows, like evil genius, good, bad billionaire, and you're dead to me. with a subscription to BBC Podcasts Premium on Apple Podcasts.

You can also enjoy a range of our podcasts ad-free with an Amazon music subscription. Would you do it again, Cookie? No. Would you not? No, the bit about it, you are a better leader at the end of it because of all you experience. Why wouldn't you want to do it again?

Because I'll tell you, I went back to Essex after I finished playing, you know, for England. And just the idea of then just playing and not have to worry about all. all the other stuff. I just, honestly, when you, no one's that never thought about it. If it was an absolute crisis,

which I suppose this is a crisis, and they said, look, you're the only person we can turn to, then it's a different thing. But the thought of actually definitely wanting to do again, no, I didn't. And I loved going back to Essex and there was never a chat of ever me being captain,

but there's never going, actually, I want to go and captain this side and try and win a counting championship. I was like, I was quite happy being the soldier, told what to do, offering my opinion when it was necessary, and then not had to worry about it. Like working for TMS? Let's hear for the man himself. I asked Joe Root yesterday about why he decided to return as test captain. Now having spoken with Stephen and his vision and how he sees building the team for what we were very aligned and was very excited to do it again. When you're

looking at different teams and different personnel, of course you're going to approach things differently and you know hopefully that comes across in the way we play in the you know in the immediate future and you know we can grow that and develop that and evolve that over the next little while as well does a test cricket team have to have a brand a style of play no i don't i don't think so um i think that of course there's there's things that you want to to replicate over and over again but i don't think test cricket is one pace you know you have to be able to to move with the rhythm of the game and to understand the different situations that you find yourself The different conditions, even at the same pitch of the same venue,

can be very different throughout five days and being skillful enough, smart enough to recognise those moments and understand what's required. Are you aware that over the last little while when results haven't been great and certain things have happened off the field that maybe the standing of this team with supporters in the eyes of the public isn't what it was a couple of years ago?

Have you got work to do to build a few bridges? I think you always want to represent your country in the best possible light and we might have fallen short of that on a few occasions in the recent past but the only thing that we can do to rectify that is be really good role models and good human beings and putting some really strong performances out in the field

and that does take time and that first opportunity to do that is this week so I think it's trying to take that and understand what that looks like and really throwing ourselves into to each situation and scenario find ourselves over the next five days. Is one of the challenges of taking over from a retired Ben Stokes,

not captaining a team with Ben Stokes in it? No, I think one of the big challenges is just not trying to be Ben Stokes and he's a very unique player with unbelievable qualities that I don't think are easy to replicate, so I don't think there's any point trying to. I think understanding that things have changed, it's going to have a slightly different look to it, but that's okay.

There's still a lot of good stuff that's how. happened over the last four years that I think will serve us really well and it's about not ripping it up just fine-tuning and involving that and and taking that to the next level. So yeah I mean I think he did a phenomenal job throughout his tenure and you know we'll go down as a brilliant test player, brilliant test captain and we've got to find a way of evolving the team without him in it. One of the things I've heard you talk about in terms of batting and the runs you've scored and the milestones that you've achieved is they're never really your runs that the team's runs and if I said to you or it's your motivation for taking this captaincy

to become an Ashes winning captain or a World Test Championship winning captain you would say no it's about the team and those sorts of things so is that what it is to take this group of players and shape them and leave them in a better place than what you found them rather than anything you can achieve personally yeah and try and bring the best out of each other throughout that as well you know I don't you look at a bowling attack for example I don't think they even realize how good they are and how skillful they are and what they could potentially produce over the next little while and the depth that there's there in that department as well so I think it's about trying to move this team forward and clearly if we're getting the best out of those players with the amount of skill that

they have we're going to produce results and we're going to play some really good strong cricket that's the new old new again England test captain one thing I want to pick out from what he said in that interview then because we haven't really touched you. on what's gone on around the England team and the stuff that's happened off the field. Good role models and good human beings he wants his team to be. Was that something that was in your mind when you were playing for England, Alistair? Yeah, we had a team charter of how we want to pay. I think we have to accept that over the last couple of years

that they haven't got that off-field stuff totally right. But I will say there's always going to be mistakes because there's too many people in there not to be eight. mistake. Everyone's young. Everyone's, you know, there's 22 year olds, 26, years, 20, 8, living the time of their life. It's not going to be absolutely perfect, but there's got to be less

mistakes. And that's just a starting cover. There'll be a story at some stage. There always is with every cycle. So, I just hope there's less of them. What do you think when you hear that, Michael? Yeah, I mean, it's just sensible. I mean, why wouldn't you want good people in your dressing room?

Making good decisions, being mature. not at the England side for two or three years you could argue they've got away with a lot I've got away with a lot of the stuff that they've got so they haven't performed what I would describe it in a high performance way in terms of the way that they've

prepared for the big moments you know the preparation for the Australian tour was pretty much non-existent and that you know when you start kind of producing preparation like that as a management group, almost like subconsciously as a play, you kind of think, well, this is quite a relaxed

environment. I know they're still playing lots of golf and I have no problem with that at all. It's just that over the course of the first two or three years, it was almost all we talked about was golf. You know, there's things that you have to keep private in your team group and I'm sure they all play golf yesterday afternoon, but do we know about it? No.

You know, it's absolutely fine with me and you know, fundamentally the big moments in your careers and in the big moments as a coach, as a captain. You have to prepare your players for absolutely every eventuality. And I just don't think that's happened over the course of the last two or three years. And I think we will get that now. I think we will see a more discipline, more sense. I think we'll see a more mature team. And if you're more mature off the field, I said earlier,

you're probably more likely to make more mature decisions on the field. It comes hand in hand. There's going to be challenges for the side because they've lost a world class all round and they haven't got a world class spinner. So let's not think that just just because they've made this change and Joe's the captain and Stephen Fleming's together, they're going to make more sensible decisions. I think Marcus North comes across really well as the selector. I love the way that he interviews. He just talks a real sense about the game,

but it doesn't mean they're going to win every game. It doesn't mean that there won't be challenges in South Africa and next year, and then India away. We know there's going to be challenges ahead, but the more that you can create an environment, which is high performance, I still think this team can be better coached. Stephen Fleming, from what I've seen from the IPL, is more of a leader, more of a man-manager.

I think he gets people around him to do the coaching. And I still think this test match team, you know, the keeper stood up tactic. Who's going to coach the players on how to overcome that tactic? It's exposed this England batting line. It's exposed our two best players in Harry Brook and Joe Root. So who's going to coach the players into making sure that they overcome that? I'm interested with this background team how it will look for. South Africa because I think it will be different to what we have here today.

But for the first time, for the first two years, Agas mentioned, and he was right, we loved Basboar. It brought us great moments, great active kind of commentary that we all adored. But, you know, for the last two years, we've all watched and thought, oh, no, we haven't felt there's been a safe pair of hands behind the England Test Match team. I feel now, for the first time in two years, really, that I'm looking down and going, Joe Root, Stephen Fleming. you could argue are the two safest pair of hands that can take this England team forward

Agnes on that idea of what might have been going on off the pitch and obviously you've been close to England teams for a very long time is the point that the supporters don't actually care as long as England are winning and they haven't been winning enough? Well yeah that's an interesting point I mean I think supporters do care we were all in Australia or more forgiving of things that happened off the field if you're winning I suppose so I mean look it's interesting Stokes touched on this

didn't he a couple of weeks ago on a podcast about a drinking culture with cricket and you look at some of the high profile characters that have been down the years I think long tours and so on I think that there probably it is an issue

but club cricket is first thing I'd do when the game's over there into the pub having a drink and that's it is kind of is being part and parcel of the game game. But the point that the two things really. I think as professional cricketers, you know

how you should be looking after yourself and what you do and what you do not do to make sure that your performance is as good as you can make it. You can make mistakes, you can bowl like a drain, you can miss the first ball that you face. But you owe it to yourself

and then the second part is you owe it to your team to make sure that you are in the best possible place to do that. And I think part of the most disappointing parts of the ill discipline that there has been over the last few months because you're letting your teammates down. And once you start doing that,

that really is a bad, that's a really bad place to be. And I don't see how you can, as Michael was saying, if you don't, if you're not disciplined off the field, you're not going to be disciplined on it because that's just the culture.

And that, that is something that, I think Joe Root, I mean, he didn't, I mean, Joe Root went, you know, the infamous Nusa trip, He was off with his family somewhere else. He kind of stepped away from that. And I suspect that, I'm pretty sure,

that Joe, the model professional, wasn't comfortable with it. And so he made sure he wasn't seen on the streets of Nusa with trays of beers. I actually think that under McCullough and Stokes, they did train hard. They trained hard. So they did train hard. I just think the next, I don't think they trained in the right way, though. I think having a three-hour net is actually quite easy. It's like it like...

Training smarter? Well, I like, you know, like the no preparation, that you're not matched harder. The hard thing is to say that that pink ball game in Australia was the great example of it for me. You had three or four players who'd never played a pink ball game. Never. And yet they decided that it was...

Including the weirkeeper. Including the weirkeeper. But they decided that they didn't want to go and play because actually the conditions weren't the same. no condition is exactly the same, but it's got to be more beneficial for you to be put under pressure. I think they're almost like thinking, well, I'll just bat in the net, I'll face a better bowler in the net and the one of the game. You don't have the stand of the opposition, all that kind of stuff.

It's like, no, you've actually got to go out there and bat and be in the middle. You're under pressure because you might get too low scores, but sure that stuff has to be there. I always go back to pre-season games or start when we used to tour a flower. and you play the Walmart game and you got out for 15 and then he cut everyone else doesn't get any runs and then it comes to tea on day and you're batting all day do you want another bat? The bit of pride of you says no I don't want another back

because I don't want to go out again and get out twice in a day but you deep down know that that going out again put yourself under that pressure for that however long it might be in the long run is better yes you might end up the egg on your face and you're out twice in a day and you have it's not even a first class game you have the embarrassment of that, but it's that kind of stuff which I think this side needs to be doing. And the players have to be told it. Right. And we were told sometimes we were told flowers like towards the end you said yes, I'll have another bat because you couldn't be bothered the

argument. But you know, because you said, oh, I've had an hour on net. I'm good, I'm good. And it's not the same as getting out there. And actually when you get through that hour of batting in the middle, it's 10 times better for you. And you're ready for you're more prepared than you are. And I think this side needs a bit more of that you are going to that game to play because you need Not because you want to, but you need to. Sometimes you have to be told that as a player. Do you think that, I assume you can pick up the pink ball, because that, again, you know I felt strong about it as well.

Do you think that was really the illustration of the stubbornness that had set in? That there was just not listening to anybody at all. This is what we're doing. That's the end of it. And there was no movement at all, no flexibility. You can't tell me not one of those players wanted to play deep down. But they didn't want to go against regime. and say, actually, you know, because I mean, yes, Newster,

I actually got the Neusatril. I did get it. You know, actually in terms of like, you've gone on a long tour, you know, they're towards the back end of tour. Those three back-to-back games, the end are hard. You do have to conserve some energy and refresh yourself. But when I saw that tray of beers going on my app on my phone, the guy's in nice sunglasses, nice caps, tops off, nice shorts,

going. And I was like, that is just not a good look. So on the subject, of preparation and we can throw it forward to this winter because England have got a warm-up game before all three of their test tours. So England are doing more preparation before the anniversary test in Melbourne than they did. You could say arguably for the entire Ashes tour, they're playing a day-night game before that. But to round up everything that we've spoken about here, so Brendan McCullum being sacked, Stephen Fleming being hired, Joe Root getting the call to be England test captain, standards off the field, preparation.

All of that stops with Rob Key, does it? they're all his decisions. And did we think that after the ashes, Key was most vulnerable? Did we think after the New Zealand series, Key was most vulnerable? And yet he is the man still in post. Where does this leave Rob Key?

Well, he's very lucky to still be in his position. When you think about his reign, the T20 World Cup win was right at the start. The defence of the 50-over World Cup in India was a poor one, champions trophy. It was a poor one. We've got to a semi-final of a T-20 World Cup.

We've got to the semi-final of the last five T-20 World Cups. We haven't won a five-match series on his watch. I haven't won an Ashy series on his watch. So I think he'll know that he's very lucky to still be in his position. What I think he has now in Marcus North and Stephen Fleming, and we'll keep using the word sense and mature. I think he's got good people around him now. You know, Freddie Flintsoff step down from the Lions coach.

in role what's going to happen there will it be a michael yarder that gets pushed up from the under 19s or richard dorson will they try and grab him from glomorgan let's wait and see on that but you know rob key um he's the next one isn't he just for instance if they lost to pakistan here you know he will know in the back of his mind that he's quite fortunate to be given an look at ashley giles who did that role straight after the ashes and it was a an ashes series throughout COVID, which was, I just mentioned, Joe, Rick was a captain, it was an awful tour for the team. And to manage that and to manage the team through COVID must have been so difficult,

but he got the Tick-Tac. So for Rob to be still in his position, I think he'll know he's very lucky, but he's got another great chance. He's got a great chance to build this test match team, to win an Ashes series next year, to be more competitive in a 50 over World Cup, a lot more than we were in India, and you think the conditions would allow that with the way that England play?

and he's got a chance to go out on his own turns because deep down I think he's a good cricket thinker I think he's overanalyzed some of his quirks too much I think this taking a punt on selection with some of the selections that we've seen Josh Hall was playing last year yeah and that's not just in the full time I think that's in the Lions program as well I think that has to stop

I think there has to be a bit more sense around selection you've got to get I look at a lot of the younger players that are coming through our game I think there's some wonderful talent there but make them play some cricket you know and earn the right to get those three lines on the chest. Don't just gift them a three lines opportunity. And I don't see the rushing trying to rush some of these

younger players through, just make them earn it. So I would think there'll probably be a little bit of change in the way that they approach those kind of things. But yeah, I think he's got a more sensible group around in that will make more sensible decisions.

It is a job of, so when we're talking about what happened in Australia and maybe stubbornness I guess about some of the things that took place there and how close that McCullum and Key and Stokes were. Is the job of a director of cricket is when the coach or the captain comes to you and says, I want this, this, this, and this.

The director of cricket should be saying, you can have that, that no, yes, you can have this with a but. And has there not been enough of that? I think that's absolutely true. I don't think that Rob Keyes stood up to aspects of that tour in the way that he should have done. And ultimately, he is responsible. I mean, he's the man who signs the tour off.

and I've spoken to some people there are some good people who want that job he's got people breathing down his neck there's the old tabloid saying of being drinking in last chance saloon you get the feel that he is I mean one more if you're Richard Gould

you're the chief executive and you're looking at English cricket at the moment the men's game particularly but you're looking out at that and you just see how it looks to sponsors to advertisers to supporters it's not a good look, is it?

And I would have thought that Rob Key, if he's doing anything at the moment, because I think, actually, Michael's right. He does have people around now who actually might actually stand up and say, hang on a minute, or he's not put him in the position of having to challenge them.

I think Joe Root and Stephen Flavon will come up with more sensible, traditional thoughts for their tours. But discipline, you know, I think if there's any further breach of that, I think Rob Key's in real trouble. I actually, if you look at the England management that was, you've got, you know, Baz McCollum, he's a maverick. You know, Ben Stokes is a maverick.

You'd probably say that Rob Keer lines himself more with that kind of character than someone that's quite straight and a bit, dare I say, a bit boring. You know. Why did you look at me? I don't know why I looked to you, Alistair, but straight out in the eyes. You looked at me, I was looking to the left. I was just seeing who was there. It was you. Yeah, like Alistair.

You know, I think in leadership it's very important that you need to. your mavericks because they're the kind of dust that can get you over big situations and they can do things that not many can but give me more of that solid boring Alistair type you know they're that these are the ones that keep the wheels turning around on a day-to-day best dependable are they reliable sir Alistair just use that adjective Victor Melrose are they um were they blindsided a little bit by the success they had in that first 18 months. Because they literally like, yeah, did they then start believing that they had reinvented

cricket a little bit? And that cult, I don't want to use the word cult, I don't have, but they kind of just started believing their own hype a bit. And therefore McCullen could just say, we're going to do this. And because they'd won all those games, Kee said, yeah, go on then. And then it got to the stage, well, oh, could we won that last series two years ago, we won that. And it did just take, they almost like free-wheeled it.

They needed that, that is when Rob Key, after the initial burst of success, then that is when the real quality, I'm talking the top end leaders recognize that it's worked for a little bit. Because you know, it's amazing how captain comes in after, after NASA, strict captain got England back onto that like, you know, central contract, Fletcher got on going. Who is the next captain? A bit more relaxed, a bit more. After that, was Straussie again. Do you know what I mean? It does ever flow. And because of COVID and silver and all that stuff, I'm not actually, after.

The more I think about it, the more I think that almost two years of cricket needs to just be parted over there. Because I don't think you could judge Ashley Giles on it. I don't think you could judge Chris Silver properly on that kind of stuff because it's actually really unfair on that. But I think on this period you see, you know, it was such wheels off and it just free will. And almost whatever McCarland said, people believe that it's right. Well, and also, Alistee, you know, you look at the preparation to go and winning in Pakistan. What did they do? They went to Abu Dhabi.

I think they were playing a three-day warm game. pretty much played golf on day three didn't they stopped it on week on day three and thought we're going to play golf they won in pakistan went down to new zealand and won on the back of not a lot of preparation so maybe they thought they were onto something in terms of we started this conversation of you know where england have landed and um are we better off and those sorts of things um i'm actually quite pessimistic and i want you to tell me if i'm wrong or not because i look at this test team at the moment and there's a question mark over one of the openers. There's a makeshift number three at the moment. I would say that the wicket keeper isn't absolutely assured of his place. Not sure about an all-rounder, not sure about

a spinner. I look at the challenges to come. South Africa are way over the winter. Bangladesh away over the winter. Yes, Australia have just lost at home to Bangladesh, but that series next week next week next year is going to be really tough and hard fought. And there's going to be a lot of Australian players who have never won in this country coming here very motivated to have a swan song to win. the ashes in this country for the only time in their careers, and then you go in the early part of 2028 to India, and we know how hard that is.

Am I right to be slightly pessimistic? You can, for all the off-field staff, you can only be as good as the players that you've got. And we've mentioned it twice, no world-class been and no backup real world-class been or either, so going to the subcontent is going to be hard, but they have one before there recently, with this kind of same group.

haven't got the world class all round like Stokes but actually Sam Curran I really like the fact they mentioned Sam Curran because he's the best all rounder England has in that role so he almost has to play in certain conditions so I think it's

just it's not going to be easy and just because it's all changed they're not winning every game but what I think there is you look at some of those players and you think yeah actually if they take the next step out I look at all the bowlers and I probably Robinson aside all of them are like on that kind of teetering as a good bowler.

For this side to go and win the ashes or win in South Africa, they've got to make that jump. And you're allowed to make jumps. You're allowed to improve. Like Harry Brooke, you're allowed to improve as a person. You're allowed to improve as a leader. So I just really want to look at this side and go, yeah,

do you know what? They've made small, small steps and then you get something. And that's what happened. Like go back to 2000. I can't remember how many times I told the story. We got bowled out for 51 against a fairly, an okay West Indy side the same group of players the same squad

with one or two things different became world number one side two and a half years later so that is what I want this side I'm not saying they could become the world I want to see these little small steps getting better and better and then special things can occur what's your outlook forney I don't think it's going to be playing sailing

you know English cricket never has been really it's fun though no no I think there's going to be more drama I just look at the side in South Africa. I think the pace attack will have to stay fit. I look at Joffra Archer. Joffa's averaging at the minute 29. I see him as a ball that should be able to put himself in the categories.

Like we talk about, Bumra, Restar, Cummings, Hayesville, because their averages are in the low 20s. And for England to compete in South Africa to beat Australia next summer, you know, your bowling attack has to do the damage. They've got to get you 20 wickets. And they have to get you out of trouble when your batters don't quite arrive and perform. At the minute, I think they can at times,

but I think they're very inconsistent. And that's something that they're going to have to get really good at in terms of having a consistent bowling attack. And working out how they're going to utilise 20 wickets when you don't have a world-class spinner. So Joe's going to have to be very clever tactically. Joe Root will be the key because he's obviously leading the side and his runs.

You know, when Joe Root gets 100 runs in a test match, 120 runs in a test match, which he generally does on a consistent basis. England compete. When the opposition get Joe out quite cheaply, England lose most of those games. And that's going to be the challenge for this side is the runs. It's the batting that's let them down. They're going to have to work away of batting 120 overs in the first innings. You know, wearing the opposition bowlers down. That's what they've not done regularly enough over the course of the last two or three years. And just basic test match cricket. If they get to the basics, and again, I'll keep going back to Bangladesh last week.

what they delivered was just basic cricket. Top of off, just outside off, bring the batters forward, catch well, bat for time, about a long time in the first year. You win test matches by doing so. If England can get to that standard and that level of consistency, they will compete at the minute,

the India Tour in 28, and I think it'll probably be the same India tour that we've had on a regular basis over the last three of four, apart from when Cookie's team went there and won. Well, it's runs for me, I mean, I think Michael's right, and the approach of the batsman, because there are some good players there. Crikey, look, Dan Lawrence interests me.

When he played that absolute crazy innings opening the batting, but how much of that was Basball influenced? How much of that was, just get out there and whack it about? He's a good player. I don't think he'll come out and bat like that when he's batting here at number six now. Did he feel that the pressure of that team mentality that he had to go out and bat like that?

It was horrible. But if they can, I just think if England's bats when just, it's old-fashioned it sounds to knuckle down but it's not, it's playing within your own limitations and as well as you can and understanding it sometimes you do have to give the bowler a bit I think they're perfectly capable of scoring many more runs than they have been and that then is the platform

for I think a pretty decent emerging bowling attack actually. You know Lawrence Wild Cookie? Yeah, and I watched those last couple of innings he played for England and I'll actually see. sad because he wasn't he's a far better player than that far better and actually one of the things which i saw when i first up when he first came to essex was he was one of the only guys 1789 20 like playing the situation incredibly well i think as a 17 year old got his first hundred then when we and then when we first game in division one he got under and 40 not out

against lancashire to save us the game and that gave everyone else confidence that we do belong in the first division after 10 years in the second division. And just watching him back like that was just, I was like, yeah, that's, you dream about playing for England and then you basically give up and say, I'm just going to whack my way out of trouble. Yeah, is he a natural open?

No, he wasn't, but he did open when he was a youngster. So that's what, that did frustrate me. I'm glad he's got another chance. I think he'll be positive because his runs he scored this year at Surrey have been at close to runnable-ish at certain times. He has got a, I think one of his hundreds is a bit slower. So I don't expect him to block it, but he will be the one that his technique is a bit unusual

and he gets out in unorthodox ways. It looks ugly when it doesn't come off. It's how he then, a couple of low scores, how he handles that now. But he needs a couple, he's got these three games, isn't he, you feel? Three games of scores and runs. And if he does, he'll carry on.

If he doesn't, I think he'll then get bit parts as not quite good enough for test cricket. Just a last point on England then, the thing that I find really interesting about the batting and the runs is actually there's quite a strong opportunity for competition for places once Jacob Bethel is available from his injury and if Sam Curen does come back into the team. So I think that's two players who could come into the top seven. Olly Pope.

Olly Pope is here as well. But if you think someone like Emilio Gay, who's still to establish himself in the side, Jordan Cox is essentially a temporary number three. Lawrence is there. Smith might need a score if Cox can keep wicket. What about maybe the competition for places that could develop over the next? a few weeks. And I think we went through a stage. I'm always, you do want to try and back people more times than not, but it's certainly when things don't go quite so well, those last

couple of years, they just played the same team over and over again. There was no accountability for that. And I think going back to the basics, what breeds better performances is competition, unfortunately. You need, and that is the nature of the test match piece, the nature of any high elite sport when Amelia Gay is on that fine thing. It comes in, day, E.B. Everyone's excited. I get a good 50 on a tough wicket. Brilliant. Everyone's like, yeah, it looks and really, that scores well.

It has a couple of dodgyest test matches, has to bat at seven in one of the game. But now, in his fourth game, people are like, God, if he crosses themselves off and Nick's a couple early or gets LBW, unfortunately, that is the difference of playing international cricket and how you handle that. And that's what we're about to see.

And that's what I like. I love that bit of it, because I know how hard it is. But I like watching people having to deal with it because you can't run away from it. This side has run away from pressure. Like tried to take all the pressures off players and guess what you can't? Look, it's a full house, big, big important game, there's pressure when you play for Ringland so bring it on and I'm excited to see who comes through it. You feel there's Michael there's been enough accountability for poor shot and a failure?

It doesn't appear to have been and it has to hurt, doesn't it? It really has to make you want to kick yourself and get out there and do that. Yeah, I mean, I look at Emilio Gay and think how, how much? How much that move to put him to number seven will damage him? Wouldn't have happened, but it... I just look at it now, I think. Ben Stokes moving to the top of the order. What does that do for a young player that's in the side?

Basically, the England side is saying to Emilio Gate, you can't do the job at the top of the order. Would have done it to Zach Crawley, would they? No, they wouldn't. And that is intriguing to me to see how he coached. That is on the back of a pair playing against Pakistan last week. Look, the only thing that you can control as a player when you're in the side is your currency's runs.

So Emilio Gay gets some runs this week. Jordan Cox gets a big score at number three. You're then looking at Jacob Bethel who's obviously out for the whole series. And the skill of a group of players when you get that chance is to make sure that you say to the selectors, I'm staying in the side. And if you've got your place in the side, which Jordan Cox has, Dan Lawrence has at number six, Emilio has at number two, make it very, very difficult for the selectors. The one thing that's very important, if you want to be a half,

high class test match side. If you look at England teams when they've had success, we've had a top three that's been quite solid. A top three that's been able to bat and bat for a long period of time which allows your flamboyancy to come in the middle of the innings. Whatever you're 30 for 3, 50 for 4, you're not going to be

a consistent set out side against the better team. So it's that top 3, whoever it may be over time, they have to work away together. It's like you're a little group, you're 1, 2 and 3. Your job is to see off that new ball. However that may look, it might be aggressive, It might be seeing off playing for your off stump, leaving it.

Whatever the moment and the situation tells you as a top three, your job is to make sure that you read it correctly. You do it for the team, and if you do it on a more consistent basis, that's when you start to get some big numbers. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. So much sport today and all the goals as they go in up and down the league. This is 5 Live Sports. and for tenor floor.

To ball him, it's not to stop out. Everyone's standing around the 18th green. He shows to the centre. Go to do it. The greatest sporting events. Listen on BBC Sounds. Get more with BBC podcasts, wherever you listen. Be the first to listen to your favourite shows,

like evil genius, good, bad billionaire, and you're dead to me, with a subscription to BBC Podcasts Premium on Apple Podcasts. You can also enjoy a range of our podcasts. ad-free with an Amazon music subscription.