Test Match Special - England's one-day woes continue with India defeat

Episode Date: July 14, 2026

Simon Mann is joined by former India wicket-keeper Deep Dasgupta and former England spinner Vic Marks to look back at England's six wicket defeat to India in the first One Day International at Edgbaston. They hear from Harry Brook and Shubman Gill as well as discussing the decision to drop Brendon McCullum as the coach of the Test side.And today was the last Blue for Bob day after five years raising money and awareness for the Bob Willis fund. Jonathan Agnew spoke to Bob’s wife Lauren Clark & his great friend Sir Ian Botham.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. How did a boycott Jimmy become a billionaire from posting videos? On Good Bad Billionaire, we're going to find out how the world's most popular YouTuber, Mr Beast, made his fortune. He's buried himself in a coffin for days. Counted to 100,000 on camera. And even recreated squid games, all in an attempt to go viral on the internet. But it all started when he gave a homeless man $10,000. So is he a philanthropist reshaping capitalism?

Or is he just the king of the attention economy? Find out on good, bad billionaire. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. So a sixth win in a row for India in one day internationals against England, that after England comprehensively won the T20 series. India winning by six wickets with 4.4 overs to spare. and there was a sense of inevitability about India's victory

from quite early in the match really when Harry Brooke was caught at slipping. There was 64 for 3 and they struggled. They got themselves together to get up to 258. Root making 76 not out and Liam Dawson 68. Acher Patel taking four for 62. It never felt quite enough. It wasn't a totally straightforward pitch.

India lost a couple of wickets before they'd reach 50. Coley out to Archer for five. But there was a century stand between Washington Sundar, 52 not out, and Achipatel, 57 not out. They got India home. It was old school one day international cricket, really. Deep Dask upturned, Vic Marks are alongside me. Victor, this is the sort of game you used to play in.

So very tedious then. Well, it was very much a routine victory. It wasn't a tense game because, as you say, once England lost those three wickets for 60, losing three wickets in about three overs. India were always in the box seat and although Root and Dawson put together a very good partnership 250 still wasn't enough

and India in a way gave a lesson in how to calmly knock off those runs a little tremor when they lost two or three wickets but Gill could still be batting now if he hadn't gone in his hamstring or whatever it is he batted beautifully and then the two left-handers at the end calmly took he took India to victory. So I'm sure it's a welcome relief for the Indian tourists

who struggled for success on this tour, but they were far more competent than England. Yeah, Gill making 80 of 75 balls before he retired hurt with a hamstring injury stroke. Cramp, we yet to discover the nature of that. But, yeah, after what India suffered in the T20 series, deep, I mean, we've come to expect this of India in one-day cricket and we've come to expect it in England a bit actually they do struggle in one day as

yeah I mean as far as India's concerned they've I mean last a few years they've been really good in this format as well yeah like you said we I think there's a sense of relief as well apart from everything else I mean yes they would be happy and all of that but then especially for the guys who were here for the T20 series and these two the left-handers were part of that T-20 series and both of them finishing the game of half centuries I think just brings back some confidence in that dressing room and obviously Shubman Gill was absolutely brilliant and England couple of things I thought won the toss and then I thought the openers did well to kind of nullify to a certain extent going unbeat until 61 that that opening partnership

but then those three wickets and I think England were behind the eight ball ever since that phase of the game and the other pattern very distinct pattern from an English perspective is that they are very good at T20 and they've got a a terrific record in recent times in T-JOT. They are pretty useless at the moment at 50 over cricket. And they have been almost since winning the World Cup in 2019. And that's partly due to the players. It's partly there's been a certain disdain for 50 over cricket from the authorities, I think.

So they don't really value 50 over cricket as much. And it's sort of coming home to roost that now. They've got into a slough where they struggle in this format. and they don't quite know how to play it. They've got obviously some gifted players, but their record, I mean, it's unusual today for England to bat 47 overs, having lost a lot of early wickets. They did well to do that.

But their record is, you know, worthy of a lot of sort of concern, I think, because the World Cup is the big goal. It's still a big goal, but England's since winning it, don't seem to be too bothered about it, frankly. Yeah, well, and also they haven't absolutely nailed down their place in the World Cup. in South Africa and Namibia and Zimbabwe. It's quite complicated, trying to work it all out.

Let's get some reaction now. Shubman Gill is with Eleanor Aldroyd. Well, congratulations, Shudman, on the big win today. I should ask you, first of all, though, how are you? I'm feeling much better, just a bit of cramps. I started getting, when I was betting around 50-60. I wanted to get there, finish the job for the team. But unfortunately, I had to come out and very glad with the result.

And you managed to have a bit of a rest. Are you going to be okay for Cardiff? Yes, I think so. That's good. Well, I mean, you were batting so well. That target really maybe was not, was well within your zone, wasn't it, really? Did you think that there might be a few challenges along the way? Yes, the target was within our reach, but the wicked was a bit tricky.

You know, at times it was playing up and down. So we knew as long as, you know, we don't lose too many wickets in the power play in the first 15 overs. We'll be in the driving position. What can you say about actually? up atel polishing off that England tail, crucially depriving them of the opportunity to get a few more runs on the board and then knocking off those runs at the end with Washington. Brilliant, you know, when you see your middle order or your lower middle order scored like that, you get a lot of confidence, especially as a captain and as top order. You know that your middle

order and your lower order is informed. So you can actually start attacking from the get-go. And for you, we know how many runs you scored. in the test series last summer we remember that so well you like playing in england and scoring runs here yeah i mean it's a great place to be you know so many fans sharing the stadiums are always the stadiums are always full and i love this ground you know last time we came here i had a lot of good memories so very happy to add on another one congratulations well let you go to the presentation thank you sherman thank you shub and gale india's come well good news there confirming right at the start that interview there was crammed there's not a hamstring injury deep yeah and and he said

Hopefully he would be there for the Cardiff game as well. And I think he would be there a couple of days in between, so I think it should be enough for him to recover. But then, yeah, something that he mentioned about the middle order, low middle order, that is so crucial, and especially the kind of combination that India is looking for in terms of getting all-rounders, because India doesn't have too many fast bowling all-rounders,

so they have to depend on their spinners, as in spin-bowling all-rounders for that. And that's where I think these two getting half-centuries, and especially Aksa getting those. wickets as well. I know the back end of it but then four wickets are four wickets next time when he goes into bowl and you would know better than anyone else. The other thing that happened

of course that he wasn't going to bowl that over until there was an injury concern with Braha. I mean it did England no service at all. They've probably got another 15 or 20 runs but for that and on he came and bowed beautifully at the tail and nullified

England's fight back in a minute. Jasbitt Bomra back in India's side today. A deep line over's one for 31. He's probably a bit unlucky, actually, not to get some wickets in the power play. What did he make of him? Listen, he's looked really good because I saw him a month ago, I believe, with the IPL. He didn't look 100%.

But when I saw him kind of warming up, he's looking athletic, he's looking fit and leaner, then when I saw him run, and, you know, that's with the bowlers. You see them run and you can figure out there in rhythm. And he saw that. Like you said, he's unlucky, but also got to give credit to English Openers. I think they handled that first few overs really well. Yeah, there's always going to be play and miss. But then, yeah, I mean, it's really good.

Because he also got a little bit of a break after the IPL. He didn't play the Afghanistan series and didn't come for the T20 either. I think it's important to manage his workload. And now, I think, for the time being, till the 50 over World Cup, he'll be focusing more on this format rather than T20. Because, you know, he's got it in him. It's just that how do you manage his workload? and he's looked really, really good.

It looked pretty handy for someone who hasn't played a 50 over game for two and a half years. You know, I think he is so mature as a cricketer that he can do that. Not everyone can, but he can. What did he make of Gunnar Bra playing his fourth one day today, picked up a couple of wickets. In fact, he was the one that got it going for India, wouldn't he? Yeah. With the wickets of Duckett and Bethel.

Well, it looked like he was going to have a bit of a nightmare because they went after him. I think he went for a couple sixes in his first couple of. over's he'd gone for 20 odd in two and you thought 26 of his first yeah 26 off two and you thought this is gonna this is gonna test him and within the next 20 minutes the whole day had turn around so there's clearly talent I mean the general point is and this is old-fashioned talk they used to think about India well their spinners are fantastic well you know they don't have any pace man we're talking several decades ago and now it seems that they've got a reservoir of capable strong pacemen, some raw, but it's no longer the case that there are no pace bowlers in India.

We know that. Yeah, I mean, with Gournur, what I think is he's still work in progress. This is his first proper tour here in England. So I thought the first couple of overs, he was a little up and down, still trying to find the right length to bowl, maybe at the right line as well. And then I think from that wicked kind of helped him to settle down a little bit. Again, that wicket wasn't of a great delivery. it was again a short ball

which Bethel hit straight to the fielder. But then I thought that wicket kind of helped him settle down. And he's someone who's got it in him. He's got all the raw materials in him is now what he does with them, how he evolves as a bowler. I think so there is a lot of faith in him which has been put into him by the management, the selectors.

Because like you mentioned before us, well, he hasn't played a lot of domestic cricket. So you've seen him and you like what you've seen. and then you've kind of fast-tracked him into the international side. What about the India's top order? I mean, Roeth Sharma's back here for this. He made 11 today. Brat Kohli made five.

We saw him in the IPL and scored lots of runs. Actually, the winning runs in the IPL final, hitting a six off Ashad Khan to win it for RCB again. He's locked in for the World Cup. Is Rohit Shama locked in for the World Cup? Do you think DEP is going to be 40 by the time the World Cup comes around? Yeah, I think Pencilin is one. I'd say, and most of them, to be fair, it's not just

Rohit or Virat or, I think it just goes for everyone, apart from maybe the captain and Jasrid Bhumra. Yeah, I mean, I think for everyone, they're penciled in, and this looks like you put Hardik Pandya in this, and maybe Hardik comes in Kuldipal, so then comes into the 11. I think that would be the ideal playing 11 across all conditions for me. But then, yeah, but then they need to keep scoring runs, and it's not easy when you only,

playing one format because again after these three games you're going to take some time off and then against being away from international cricket there's no domestic cricket either which is happening and then you're going to go to zimbabwe in and maybe i don't know maybe three weeks time to play another series there so it's always going to be tough and how they they manage to keep themselves match fit it's going to be a big big challenge well it's quite interesting especially in the batting lineups is that india seemed to view 50 over cricket as a kind of an extension of test cricket and england seemed to treat 50 over cricket as an extension of 2020 cricket. Perfect.

And I sort of think India's way is better. Yes, I completely agree. Because if you look at nowadays, in test matches, you're scoring at three and a half four. All it takes is one extra single per over and you're getting to 300 in 50 overs, rather than trying to convert 50 overs into two 20-20-over match and two-20-over innings rather and look at that way.

So, yeah, I completely agree what you said. India does look at it like that and, you know, kind of maybe a little old school, but I think it has worked so far for India. Right. It's time to hear from Harry Brooke. He is with Eleanor Aldroyd. Yes, Harry, such a terrific effort during the T20s. What are your reflections on today in the 50-over form?

Not ideal, obviously. There was a big part of the game where we lost five for 20 runs, which made a massive difference in the game, really. we thought getting to 260 was going to be enough but the pitch got slightly better in the second half and it was hard to try and force wickets. So for the core of the team when you've got so many batters falling so quickly

I mean India bowl just very well didn't they and you know we know how good this team are when they've got all their big guns together. They executed extremely well they were relentless with their lines and lengths and put us under pressure especially in that period and yeah they don't

just they played very well. What do you need to do to improve that, do you think, going forward to the rest of the series? I think it's just a one-off really. Like I said, we lost five for 20, which is a bad period for us there. If we get 320, 3.30 on that surface in the end and allow us spinners to ball through the middle a little bit more and tie them down, then it could have been a completely different game. But unfortunately, we just didn't execute as well as we could have done. On the other hand, you've got Joe Root back, who's a bit of a born-again 50 over player, isn't he?

missed out for a while in this format? He played extremely well in Sri Lanka. He got a load of runs over there, so I'm not sure he's missed out much, but he's obviously had a little bit of time away from the 50 over format, as have we all. But it's about coming back and trying to get results on our side. Can you adapt quickly, do you think,

and take it forward for the rest of this series? Definitely. I think we saw that in the T-20s. We adapted really well to surfacing T-20s. Today was just a slightly off day. and hopefully we can come back stronger in Cardiff. All right, well, enjoy the rest of the week. Thank you. Cheers.

There's Harry Brooke talking to Eleanor Aldro. At the toss, he said he thought, you know, bat first and the ball was spin. But actually, he thought the wicket got better. I don't know whether that's a bit of post-rationalization. It might be, but I'm not sure the toss made a huge amount of difference. I don't think wicket changed that much. I just think India played better cricket. Yeah.

Yeah, and I thought that opening partnership kind of nullified if there was anything because there was 61 without loss England and that I think that kind of nullified and then those five wickets that Harrybrook mentioned I think that just changed the complexion of the game completely. What do England need to do, Victor, then, in one day cricket? Play a bit more of it. Is it a play a bit more of it?

That's my simple and heartfelt answer. I think we tried to kid ourselves after 2019 and the advent of the 100 and the abandonment of domestic 50 over cricket for our best players. I think it was almost inevitable that there was going to be a downturn in how we perform in 50 over cricket. And I think there was this sort of naive assumption that, oh, if you can play 2020 cricket, you can play 50 over cricket. It's not that much difference.

And that was a convenient assumption for everyone, both the people running the game, but also the people playing the game. Because obviously if you're a young player nowadays and you want a long and lucrative career, there's a lot of, There's not much to be made of being a top 50 over player, but if you're a top T20 player, there's a fantastic opportunity out there to have a very rewarding career. So that is the deep core of it. And I think it's very hard for this group of players to kind of make that distinction, that there is a distinction between playing 20 overs and 50 overs. And it just doesn't happen automatically.

You need a bit of practice at it. since England's World Cup win at Edgebaston in 2019 against India, a victory that saved them in that competition. It's England two wins, India nine. India are kind of the gold standard up there with Australia, aren't they? At all forms, actually, but also in one-day cricket. Yes, they are. And, you know, there'll be firmer favourites than England

when it takes place in South Africa, albeit in slightly alien conditions, and what will bounce there than at home. What do you see when you look at this, kind of the makeup of this England side? See, what I think is they need to play more to find the right tempo for this format. And I completely agree when, Bik, you said, they play like they're playing an extension of T20. And that's where I think, you know, if they keep playing more 50 overs, they'll find the right tempo. They play often enough. They know how to go about in this format.

So I think that's one thing they might want to do in the next year or so before the World Cup. I mean, in this match, actually they did well to get 260. They batted badly, got 260. I mean, if they had managed to get to the over number 35 with about four wickets, we've got players, every team now has got players that can cause mayhem in those last 15 overs in a way that didn't seem to be possible years ago. They might even, if you really want to convert this into an exchange of, 20 then in the first 30 you play differently and then the last 20 with wickets in hand let's say

eight or seven wickets in hand you can play t 20 and you can play t 20 i mean you you have you know plays like jo rude and all and someone like even uh ben ducott who's who's a test player if you have a couple of more players like that in the top three top four and you you bat like that in the first 30 and then last 20 seven wickets eight wickets in hand then yeah play t 20 okay it's only a small sample size. It's one game. The last one day international series that England played, they won in Sri Lanka and they played actually some pretty good cricket.

They won by two matches to one. But generally speaking, they want a pretty downward trend. Well, they are. They've got to be hungry to play more games and they've got two more coming up in full houses. It's a great opportunity to improve. Another talking point today,

well in the last couple of days of course the Brendan McCullum situation, no longer head coach. Harry Brooke at the tossed it had chances to ask him just for his reaction just a quick answer you know what's your reaction to Brendan McCullum going and he said disappointing and there was a kind of there was a sense of disappointment there you know it's out of my hands it's kind of not my decision if to and you know he praised Brendan McCollum in a way that you know it's not just the feeling got the impression that

you know he would have much preferred him to stay on I think they've had a good working a relationship what did you make of that Victor well I I thought he answered your proving question perfectly well with quite a lot of candor and implicitly told us that he didn't want McCullum to go. He would have preferred McCollum still to be there. You can understand why he's been moved on because results have tailed off.

I can't avoid. This observation that I mentioned to you earlier in the day is that England have had managers since Mickey Stewart back in the late 80s. every Englishman who has been coach has lost more test matches than they've won. Every overseas coach, including McCullum, that England have had, happens to have won more test matches than they lost. Now, whether that has any effect or impact on what happens next, I don't know. But in a sense, you look at McCullum's overall record, and it's very good compared to the vast majority of people who've held that position. Admittedly, it's tailed off now, but for two years it was astonishing what was going on.

It's going to be exciting to see how they fill that post now. What is important, I think, is that whoever is captain and coach, the relationship in the modern game between captain and coach is very important. They need to have a similar view. They might be different characters, but they need to have a similar view. Because we've seen in the past how difficult it is when you've got a captain and a coach who were not at one. I mean, thinking back a while,

I mean, dear old Mike Atherton and Ray Ellingworth got on quite well, but they disagreed about how, or who should be playing very often, that sort of thing. You need captain and coach to have a lot in common in terms of how they want that game to be played, otherwise you're in trouble, I think.

But it has felt like the right decision to make a change, yeah? I guess so, but I have some sympathy for McCullum, because overall, when you look back on it, he has got actually quite a good record, but it has tailed off in the last 12 months or so. What's the Indian view looking in? My view is it's more to do, I guess, with the style of cricket than actually the results. I guess if you want the same, more of the same, the way that England's been playing test match cricket,

then I don't think you need a change. Then why change then? Unless what you've thought of is a course correction, so to say, and a different. approach to test cricket, then for me it makes sense. Otherwise, if it's the same thing and it's like bashed ball 2.0, then why let go of him then? Well, there's lots of intrigue ahead, really, who's going to be the captain, who's going to be the coach, all sorts of names on a list of out, sort of about to about 10. Presumably, they've got to get their skates on, coach first, then captain.

That's what they want to do. and they've got they're going to open of course to IPL coaches. They've said that. Whether IPL coaches want the strain and longevity, you know, how much time it is throughout a year, whether they want to take that on now is debatable. I think they get quite well paid though by the ECB, actually.

So there might be a few candidates out there. It'd be an intriguing appointment. Well, the favourite at the moment is Andy Flower. It doesn't necessarily mean he's going to get the job. Andy Flower is the, the favourite. Is he with the bookies? Yeah, but the thing is he's got an IPL contract with RCB. He's also got

a hundred contract with London spirits. That does take up, you know, quite a bit of your time and also the debate is going to be about, you know, how you can sell that to England supporters who are not happy to see their players playing the IPR and then, you know, sometimes missing test matches as a result and if you've got your coach, you're supposed to be planning for a test

series. Yeah, but they have already said they would accommodate that. They have, yeah, yeah. which is just a hint of where they're looking. So it's not dull following English cricket just at the minute. You never quite know what's around the corner. You know, the biggest challenge right now to find coaches is a franchise cricket because, like you said, Andy does couple of these franchises, gets handsomely paid and rightly so because he's one of the most successful coaches around.

So to get a full-time international coach, it is a bit of a trouble, I mean, challenging rather. Okay, thanks very much, Deep and Victor. More cricket tomorrow with the quarterfinals of the men's T20 Blast, Sports Extra from 425pm for that one. Cardiff on Thursday, we are on air at 1245 for a 1 o'clock start in Cardiff. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Well, today is the last blue for Bob Day after five years raising money and awareness for the Bob Willis Fund since 2021, more than

2.2 million pounds has been raised for prostate cancer research for in the death of the former England Captain disease in 2019. Earlier today, Jonathan Agney was joined by Bob's wife, Lauren Clark, and his great friend, Sir Ian Botham, and he first asked Botham

what Willis would have made of blue for Bob Day? I think he'd be very proud. He initially probably would have been a bit embarrassed. Why me? What about, you know? But no, I think he'd be very, very proud of what the family have achieved. Tell about Bob the man,

you two, both in your different ways. The fast bowler, first of all. I mean, what will you remember? What do you remember about Bob, Ian? Look, when I played my first test at Trembridge, as we walked out onto the pitch, he came up behind, put his arm around me and said,

Beefy, you're here, because you can do it. And that, to me, was a magnificent thing someone of his experience to come and say that to me and that was the start of a really good friendship. We shared the new ball for many, many years. People didn't realize how quick he was and he got bounce.

But for me, the thing I enjoyed most was this company. His sense of humour, very dry. I love of wine and food. And we spent a lot of time. So people, I couldn't do that with half the team. But Bob and I struck it. off and encouragement, time spent telling it, don't bowl there, you idiot, you know, you're

not what we can do. I learnt a lot. I learned a hell of a lot, and a lot of that goes down simply to Bob. Yeah, very unorthodox, isn't he? And yet there have been two, I wonder if you can name them, I bet you can't. I've got to challenge you on this. I've seen two non-bowlers get test wickets doing a Bob Willis impersonation. Graham Gooch.

In that case, if he did, that's three. Guy didn't see, I haven't to see that one. You can go in with Gucci. And I can believe that Gucci probably would have done that. He did quite a bit. There's two others. Alistair Cook, a horrible one. Sharma caught down the leg side at Trent Bridge.

But it was the arm pumping, the ridiculously long run. And another one was your mate in Calcutta, a totally dead game. You weren't on the tour. When India batted for about three and a half days. as they did most times over there. Alan Lamb was thrown the ball and from the boundary edge he came tearing in

doing a full Bob Willis impersonation and got Manorz Prabhakar LBW and Richard Ellison who bowled about 60 overs in the game was in the bath like that and I was 12th man he said what was that noise? And I went out sort of I can't tell you Richard. He got about naught for 130. Let me add an advantage

because it could never bounce over. You can't deliver it. it from about 18 inches off the ground. That's where the arm is. He came screaming in with the full. But it was, we all know the Bob Willis run up, don't we? We all know it. Yeah, it was very unorthodox, wasn't it?

Yes, yeah. And his love of Dylan. Love Dylan. That should drive me mad. I went to so many Bob Dylan games in various parts of the country. And on occasions, not one night, two nights, three nights in a row. Oh, really? Same gig, same music.

Same venue. In the end, you sort of, it gets in your head after a while and start singing it. I think, I know, no, no. He listened to Bob Dylan every single day of his life. And he died. Luckily, I sort of remembered at the last minute and played positively Fourth Street at the end. And I think his last breath was at the end of the song. It was quite amazing.

Wow, dear. That's kind of, what was about his music, I wonder, that Bob Latched is. Oh, Bob was very deep. Yes. And, yeah, something, I mean. He loved Wagner as well. I mean, I can't do Wagner. I went to one with him.

I love Parcena. I'm a Wagner man. Okay, so I went to see Parcifel with him, five and a half hours. Oh, so relieved. Even the speeds it up version. So relieved when it ended. He's just absolutely captivated. He gets immersed.

Yeah. And what about at home then? Is it the same sort of character? You know, we had a complicated getting together. But when we were together, It was just the absolute best. He was so loving, absolutely hilarious, had a nickname for absolutely everything.

And we just really understood each other and liked doing the same things. I don't like beaches either. I mean, he sands a design fault. You know, he's very opinionated. I like the same wine as him. I mean, I suppose you'd grow to... Haven't got any choice.

Yeah. No, exactly. Tell me about when he, you know, when he started his... commentating and he was quite quite a few are laid back to a quiet commentator wasn't his observations he went off and he came back as this like the

chainsaw in the verdict Tim and Charles Colville and Bob would just he'd be just hacking down everything was that a deliberate sort of a tactical thing where he went away and thought right I've got to have to yeah I mean I think that he's quoted as saying that he he realised that he wasn't going to make a career in broadcasting if he was just too nice and said all he was

unlucky to get out and that sort of stuff. He did an interview with you and Jimmy and Stuart where he said that, so he had to get his chainsaw out and cut them off at the knees. You mean it, Ian? He could be quite a savage on that, didn't they? Yeah, but look, everything, when someone

sits there and puts a plastic nose on right there and then puts a judge's wig, it's hard to take that particularly seriously. No, it is. And I think, genuinely think, that Bob did it because it was his humour. Yeah. He enjoyed doing it.

Yeah, and also, I remember it was Trent Bridge, where Joe Root and the boys called him up. And he went in there, and they all had the weeks on and things when he came in. But Joe Root certainly did. They suddenly then, they actually warmed to him straight away because he could see that it was his humour. And then he would go and talk to the boys. Bowlers would start to come to him, which is great.

And at first he was in danger of isolating himself, but it wasn't by the end. People always remember Headingly 81 and you'll be bored to death of talking about it. People do tend to remember your contribution there, particularly, possibly even more than Bob's. Is that a fair comment? I mean, did Bob ever feel that?

I mean, people were talking about, both of them, heading the 81. And yet Bob, you know, Bob's bowling won the game in the end. Did he ever feel that that was like that or not? Oh, all the time. He used to give me so much step. No, I mean, there's no... Bob wasn't like that.

He was between the two of us. It's bound to be that competition. Yeah, yeah, and it was. And, you know, he also batted well in that game. He hung around, which was important to get a total. Well, it wasn't really a total. We, 130 or what it was to chase down. But then they did the same in the next test at Edgewood.

Edgaston here, yeah. Did you ever, when you're having a glass, talk about that game particularly, the two of you together? No, apart from the party we had, headingly on the rest day. We had a big marque at our house. Was that the wheelbarrow incident? Well, there was a wheelbarrow incident.

There's also the... Sorry, just to rewind. What was the wheelbarrow incident? I can't remember it. Oh, come on. You can't leave it dangling. No, no. He actually, a couple of the boys got wheeled out in wheelbarrows.

Oh, dear. Yeah. It really wasn't that complicated. Not by that time in the morning. Fair enough. Okay, well you've brought that subject up here for the last few minutes here You'll have been following what's been going on

with the test team and everything else What do you think of the moment about the current sort of image of English cricket Does it concern you? Yes, it does concern me I actually feel for those people working in Australia on radio and what have you And you see the ground

You see the support for England and most of the grounds the ground would have been 60, 40 Indian supporters. They've gone over there and those grounds are much bigger than anything we've got, you know, MCG, 100,000. And you go there

and then I think these guys have saved all that money for all those months to come out and enjoy summer in Australia and the ashes. And a combat, it's not a walk around, it's combat, it's gladiatorial.

And it wasn't. And I felt so sorry for those people. We'd spend all that money. And they were asked trying to do things. I remember one family in tears, the children in tears. I was getting into the lift and the hotel. And I said to him, well, they said to me, what can we do? What can we do?

I said, look, embrace Australia. Because you're in a country that has probably one of the best sporting records of all time. And enjoy it. But the kids didn't want that. kids wanted to see cricket. They want to see their heroes running around. And they didn't get that. And that was what saddens mean. If you, do you want people to come through the turnstiles? You've got to perform. You've got to give them something back.

You've got to be prepared to perform. You don't do the hard work first, haven't you? Well, I'll learn your lines in an acting sense. Well, as we know, I mean, Michael Vaughn and I, we don't know what we're talking about, a couple of old has-beens. I don't think you'd take out very well when he said that actually. Well, let's see no. But one thing's for sure, though, Ben. if you're listening, congratulations. You've joined the club.

You're now a husband. Well, there you go. Where does it go from here? I mean, where does English cricket go? I mean, no captain, no coach. It just seems such a... Rears, I've had a breeze and conversations with him. He's still looking pretty good, briers.

Get him out. Is he here as well? Have you got any thought about how it does... I mean, when you actually have lost both together and you've got the ashes coming next year? I mean, do they look out... side, have you got any thoughts about the coach?

Would you think someone like Andy Flower, for instance, who people have talked about a lot, do you think he would actually take this job with all the spotlight, all the pressure, when he's actually's got a couple of nice franchise jobs going? I mean, it's a big ask, isn't it? The coach that I admired the most, and a play, and he was coach,

an assistant manager, in those days, we weren't an entourage of 40-odd people. We were an entourage of about 16, 17 people. and the late Kenny Barrington was magnificent. And one of the things I think the boys took to straight away was the fact you never heard Kenny say in my day. It was always relevant. He wanted the boys to do well.

The rest of the coaches, as far as I concerned, those guys used to take you to the ground. Yeah, all aboard the coach, off we go. You got the shame warns line, isn't it? Yeah, it was warning. But he's absolutely right. Because sometimes the coach can be there, but he's got to be there for the right things.

and for me if anyone else could do it like Kenny Barrington get hold of them quickly yeah because we of course played really as a time I mean certainly counties had no coaches did they

and how that authority kind of balances well when you got Brian close as your character when you were a youngster and you first go in you're not going to say anything actually you're not going to say

but he will tell you exactly what he thought you did wrong and then after that he put his arm round shoulder take you over to the stragglers a little bar there as you Noville at Taunton those days and in the summer

sit there and say right here I'll talk to you through what I'm talking about and it would be a three or four minute conversation forgotten done let's get on with tomorrow Is there any part of the mentality of the last four years I mean in the first two years that

team that was pretty broken wasn't it when McCullough and Stokes took over it was rock bottom there was some very exciting cricket play in those next two years is there any part of that you'd like to see or live on with whoever does come in and do you think that mentality is good, albeit at least with some

checks on it and some common sense applied? Well, if you go back through the history books, I think the sides in the 70s, 80s and maybe the early 90s played aggressive cricket. But it wasn't kamikaze cricket. It was aggressive. You have people like Graham Gooch at the top of the order.

You've got people like Gala, Lamb, in our side. and look at the Australians, players they had. Matthew Hayden didn't block it too often. But he scored lots of runs. And I just think that get yourself in, give yourself a chance. There are occasions when you maybe have to take the challenge up earlier than you want. You need selection.

And I say selection is selection of deliveries. You do not have to play at every ball. If you are playing at every ball, a bowler gets very excited. Yes, yes. And that's what we saw in Australia. Do you think Ben Stokes will come back? I don't see how he can. I'm honest. I don't see you.

Look, you don't make a decision like that, which I thought was weird in the middle of a test. Timing, yes. And always a pleasure of catching up with you. We don't do it enough. You're always welcome to come and see us. You know that. Look, at the end of the day, there's so many great memories.

You could sit here for a year every day and having a different toast for Bobblerus. Yeah. Because that's the kind of person in the world. You don't see the generosity in the time he gave to people. he didn't suffer fools but nor should he but no

he a remarkable man and everything that's been done here for him is great, the support they've had and it's a great cause and it's making a difference and that's the important thing the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live

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