Test Match Special - First week of The Hundred, Chris Woakes and Ashes Preparation

Episode Date: August 11, 2025

Mark Chapman, Sir Alastair Cook and Southern Brave’s Tymal Mills react to a blistering opening week of The Hundred. Grace Harris and London’s Spirit’s strong start and some of the top performers in the men's competition. We also hear from Chris Woakes following his shoulder injury and one-armed batting stand against India, discuss men's Ashes preparation and England's potential bowling attack.

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retire, you're way too old? Oh, if he told you to retire, what happened? Oh, the very next baller, got him out. But then, like, a month later, I was retired. Oh. Both run, in a way. The Knight of the Realm. Jimmy, come on. What? What do you mean what?

What? What are you saying? Tail Enders. Listen now on BBC Sounds. BBC Sounds. Music, radio podcasts. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Welcome to Five Live cricket. We're joined by Alex Hartley at Old Trafford, Sir Alistocook and Southern Braves Tammal Mills. We'll hear from Chris Wokes, discuss the first week of the 100, and look ahead to the next men's ashes. Tamal, I thought Manchester Originals were going to beat the Brave last week and you went and ruined it. Yeah, for the first time in my career.

I actually, yeah, contributed to winning something with the bat. So, yeah, sorry. Sorry about that, Manchester fans. It's really uncomfortable to be actually out of game, cursing someone and then have to do a show with them just a few days later. But at least I did it on a WhatsApp message to you as well. Yeah, exactly. All good, no stress.

Alistair, how are you? Very well chappas, very one, indeed. Are you enjoying the 100? Are you having a break? where are you? I am. Well, actually, I'm in the studio in Dunstable at the minute,

but I was at Cardiff for the Welsh Fire's Games and then I met Edgfordham tomorrow. So, yeah, I'm doing a couple of them. It was good. Good. Tamal, your men's team, the Southern Brave men's team, are just one of two teams

to have won both matches so far. I mean, like any of these competitions and you have experienced them all around the world, it is fine margins, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. And I've certainly been in, in teams and played in competitions where you get to the end of the tournament and it's that one, you know, you go out on run rate or a really close decision where, yeah, you look

back and there's a game at the start of the tournament where you lose by a run or you don't quite get over the line and they're the ones that you, you know, you really curse come the end of the competition. So yeah, to win a real close one to start was brilliant and then, yeah, we had a pretty pretty dominating performance the other day. Just from what you've played into Malin, I'll bring Anastra in from what he's seen as well, but from what you've played in and what you've also seen, it has felt like a bit of a strange start to the competition, actually, in the main. It's felt more measured, I would say,

rather than lots and lots of fireworks, the odd innings aside. Would that be fair? Yeah, I think, unfortunately, without wanting to be, I guess, too controversial, I think the pitches haven't been very, very great so far for the most part. In terms of run scoring, it's certainly been easier to be. bowl on than it has to bat. I think obviously the really good weather we've had pretty much over the course of the summer. And I guess traffic on the squares and stuff, maybe the pitches aren't quite as fresh and as lively as what they could be. Yeah, it's certainly

been a case of, yeah, kind of hit the pitch hard and bowl cutters and batters being, kind of struggling to really get going outside of the oval, really, which is always, you know, a great place to bat. And to be fair, what 150 odd is a good score on this wicket in Manchester. But, yeah, I think for the most part, the wickets have looked a bit tired, and I think we're in the middle of a bit of a heatwave for the rest of the week, aren't we? And also, I guess, with the difference in this type of short format game is you've got the women's game beforehand,

so these pitches are out in the sun all day, whereas if you have a hot day, normally for a blast game or an England game, the ground staff can actually keep the covers on the pitch during the day just to keep them in the shade and not let them dry out, whereas with the 100 and obviously with the women's game happening, they're out in the elements all day

so by the time the men's game comes around they're looking a little bit tired at the moment I mean I suppose there is a balance here Alistair isn't then that sometimes we can never be happy I can remember doing IPL shows last season in particular when Sunrises seem to be scoring 400 off 20 overs for about four consecutive matches

and everybody going yeah well what with the substitute rule and less or rands and more specialists it's favouring all these big scores and you can have too many high scoring games because you want a bit of variety. And also I love how groundsmen can never be happy. The heatway, they should be able to use any wicket they want.

Just put more water into it. I never understand it. They moan when it's raining and then when it's hot, they moan as well. I also think the 100 format in particular, I think it's quite hard to judge what a good score is when you're batting first. I don't know why the 20 balls less of a game. You know, everyone's just uncertain. You're commentating on it and you're thinking, are they getting a good score?

they're getting parr. There's all these stats next to you, but in T20 cricket, because maybe there's so much more played around the world, players just seem a bit more comfortable in that environment in terms of assessing a situation, whether they get a little bit more time. But from the games I've watched, there's a little bit of uncertainty of how hard to go, and then suddenly, you know, the game's gone, and not gone, but they're playing catcher, and then lose a couple of wickets, and it doesn't work. So I think, to Mal's right, and that the wickets have looked high, but also I think players are a little bit uncertain whether what a good score is because it's just, it is such a different format to what people are used to playing in the franchise world. I think also having played in it now for five years, this might sound a bit strange maybe

to people at home or people listening. It does actually, that one ball less and over actually is quite a big benefit for the bowler because that's one less ball that can go the distance. And how often do you see, you know, the end of the over batter is taking down the last ball, whereas in the 100 really, if you bowl two, especially three good balls, your first three, you can't really have a bad set and then you can get off. And you rotate the strike and then another bowler can come on. Whereas also when the spinner are on, if a spinner gets a wicket with that fourth or fifth ball, they can then rattle through another five balls to a new batter, then all of a sudden 10 balls have gone. And that's 10% of the game gone. And that might be

one wicket for five or six runs. So I think after, yeah, being playing in it for five years or so, I would say it does favour the bowlers just a little bit, in my opinion. I mean, I know everybody has plans and stuff. Is there more thinking on the hoof, do you think? Maybe, yeah, it's difficult. I think everybody's different, everybody prepares differently. But you have to be a little bit more reactionary, I think. And as I said, it's a nice feeling when you can kind of,

you bowl that fifth ball and you almost kind of grab the umpire's hat and, you know, you grab your hat off the umpire and you run away because you feel okay I've got away with it here because T20 cricket as you mentioned that IPL just as an example the other year it can be brutal whereas we're not we're just not really seeing it at the moment in the hundred and that's it's a combination of different factors there's obviously some good bowling going on as well but yeah I think just that one less ball it just rotates things a bit quicker than what obviously batters are normally used to in terms of lining up or trying to

line up a bowler bigger picture Alistair do you do you watch it at the moment and feel like we're treading water waiting for whatever changes may come when the owners are allowed control from next season? Yes, in one sense

because they've bought it and but they've had no influence on the decision of it. What was really interesting was Dave Warner said on air, he said how much he's, like this is first cover games, how much he's enjoyed playing in, thinking he's he, his act words were, I think this format should go back to Australia

because it's, it is, as to Malta, it's different. The ten balls, he said, you know, the ten balls on, you could bowl ten balls on one end. One bowl can bowl, can bowl ten balls in roll. You get batter stuck at ends. He said he really enjoyed that side of it. We are waiting. We are waiting, chappas, there's absolutely no doubt about it for when the owners decide what they want to do with it, whether they want to keep the format as it is.

I know it's stuck in stone for a couple more years. but you know when they invest that much money they want to they want to get it push it the way they want to push it tomorrow yeah i think we we don't know we're starting to hear little bits aren't we the london spirit came out didn't they the last couple of days saying they're okay they're keeping the name and but you know there'll be some changes around it some other teams that have obviously been had more of a majority stake you know we know they're going to be different named for example manchester will become the super giants so the sunrise will will change the superchargers So yeah, we're still, as players, we're still, you know, finding out.

But also just chatting between ourselves, we're also pretty confident that the squads will change quite a bit. I'm sure every team won't be able to retain 10 players again, as they have done for the last few years. And it might be an auction next year and the like like like that. So it does feel, and there's a bit of chat about it kind of being a bit of a last hurrah in terms of the kind of the first five years. that have been and then whatever's to come next year where as you say just as as cookie said just waiting to to hear what what the powers that be decide the tournament's going to look like next season where do you think the men's is heading Alex yeah look I think that well the competition obviously will be joint it will stay joint and it's going to be one of those that the franchise

teams taking over the owners taking over things will change and there's a lot of questions on will it go to a T20 competition and there's a lot of chatter that you know potentially as soon as next year. I've heard that it won't happen next year, but it might happen, you know, in a few years' time. I really like The 100. I also heard a rumour that it'll go to a T20 but still be called the 100, which doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

So it's all rumours at the minute. We know things will change, but as players, nobody really knows what's going on, especially mid-season. You've just got to concentrate on playing yourselves and you're going to hear these rumours, but you've got a job in hand to do first. Well, somebody said to me the other day,

with Barney Ronnie, the Guardian, when I was doing this with doing a podcast with him and David Lloyd as well. And just talking about how, and Malister made the point, if David Warner says, oh, maybe it should go to Australia, all of a sudden, it changes things statistically. And maybe statistics may not be the biggest thing in the world to Mal. But they certainly play a huge part in cricket. And therefore, it is an outlier in terms of everything else when it comes to how people are, judged within the game. Yeah, 100% and you're right, it does mean a lot to players.

Players know their stats. They know their milestones. They know where they're at. Okay, I've just got, you know, I've just taken 200 wickets. I've just got 1,000 runs. I've just got 5,000 runs, whatever it might be. So as much as players might play it down, they certainly do have an eye on it. And they do, there are certain milestones that will mean more to certain people than others.

And you're right, the 100, they have shoehorned it in. They've pretty much just said, okay, whatever happens in a, you know, in a 100 game goes onto your T20 stats and they've fudged it a little bit in that regard. I think it's close enough to be okay in terms of the cricket, the product that's on the field. But yeah, I think just going back to just to touch on what Alex said about, if it does go to T20, the one thing that stands out to me is that that becomes a long day then. If you have a women's T20 followed by a men's T20, one of the great things at the moment is that, you know, families can calm and watch all day. we had 11.5,000 in for the women's game yesterday at the utility ball, sorry,

and then not many more filling in after four hours. I think if you're all of a sudden you're making that two T20s, that is a long day, especially midweek or at a nighttime game, which one of the things that you can't argue with with the 100 is that it is a really good day out for all involved. I suppose the good thing with the 100 is when you do go and watch, you know roughly when you're going to be going home. But that does make a big difference, actually. You talk to families, talk to a lot of people.

T-20s are now taking a long time. They are in the IPL, aren't they? Yeah. Well, they don't actually have any limits on how slowly you can bowl the over. It's like, look, I actually, I think the hundreds are great format. I've really enjoyed it. And I know it's, it comes in with a massive amount of criticism because of what it's done to the structure of English cricket

in terms of when test matches are played and when domestic cricket is played. And I do think that there is an element of that can be improved. It doesn't just have to be in August. You might be to move into July. You might be able to move into half August, half September. I know it's the holidays and it gave it that launch. But it doesn't have to be, you know, stuck in one place.

If you just look at the players playing at the minute, if you played a franchise tournament around the world, it might be T, it might be 100, or it might be a T20 format. Some of these teams in 100, certainly on the men's side in particular, they would do very well in a lot of global tournaments. There's some brilliant players playing it.

So, you know, one of my pet hates is, oh, I hate 100. It's like, well, but I love cricket. And I was like, well, I'm not buying that. I'm just thinking they don't like it because of what it's done to some of the counties in certain, and I understand for county members. But, you know, the standard of cricket has been really, really, really high. And I think we should always promote that and not always just slag it on.

You're both nodded at that, but I'll come to you, Alex, first, because Tamal looked like you went to answer the phone and somewhere else in his room, so I'll come to you, Alex first in that. Yeah, look, we get the same in women's cricket. People say they don't like women's cricket, but they like cricket. It's a game of cricket. It's entertaining. I think the beauty of the 100 is that you get both games. It's not men's and women's cricket. It's a day out at the cricket, and I really like that. They have spoken today, haven't they, Timal, that they're going to do, or publish today, that they're going to make changes to the blast again. And that will reduce the number of blast games from 14 to 12 next season.

So that's come from the domestic playing programme. So the men's blast now goes back to three groups of six, followed by quarterfinals and then the finals there as before and that will all be played before the 100 yeah I've long said I've been to say for a long time

that I think the blast should be 10 games I think 14 has been too many for a long time but yeah clearly now that the money from the 100 has come in and started to filter into the counties the need for those seven home games has lessened and they're starting to reduce it

and yeah I think I could do a whole podcast i guess talking about the schedule and you know some of the travel involved in the blast it was you know it's ridiculous but um yeah we played a home game in hove this this year on a friday night and then had to play the next night up in cardiff um and that just doesn't happen in professional sports so hopefully i have to say to meld that's that's very 1980s county championship which is before all three of your times but you know you normally finish a three day game in glomorgan and then it's unlike a modern player to me isn't it as well

it's two hours a two hour ride you get paid to play the best job in the world I hear and they can't do one can't play two games

in a row test match cricket's five days in a row team I'm not sitting on sitting on the N4 for six hours wherever it was but anyway I did

I was there I didn't complain as you say I was out there and I did as best I could but yeah I think and just if nothing else

getting the blast done in one block is the big win out of that That is the worst thing about the schedule is that the fact that you have this huge gap between the end of the group stage and then the quarterfinals and the finals.

So, yeah, I think that is a massive win. And, yeah, 12 games, quarterfinals, finals day before the 100 next year, I think is a big step forward. You have more brilliantly from player into grumpy old pundit there, Alistair. So that's worth very well. I just like cheap shots. So that chap is my favourite.

Chris Sutton on the football, you are the cricket. But I don't know if it's an ambition. of yours to be crickets, Chris, son, but I hope not. On the women's side of things, Alex, I kind of watched this year's 100 to come back to the 100, and you can see the strength

in depth starting, you could see it a little bit towards the end of last season's 100, you know, it felt like a women's competition that was dominated by Oval and Brave for its sort of first two or three years, but you can start to see now a bit of strength

in depth through the competition. Yeah, absolutely. Not only do we get the best overseas, the world come over for the women's side of things, but we've also been professional cricketers in England now for four or five years, and obviously we're going to get better because we're getting paid to train full-time. Everyone's full-time

jobs now is to be professional cricketers. For a number of years, some girls were doing a full shift at work and then coming to cricket training and then going back to work. One of the girls work night shifts in a warehouse and then getting up and coming to training at eight, nine o'clock in the morning.

So the fact that everybody now is a professional cricketer, the standard is just getting better and better because they're paid to train. They're not knackered when they are training. And look, the 100 has really helped that. And I think that the crowds, for one, have been amazing in the women's game. But like you said, Chappas,

you can just see the standard getting better and better every year. But the benefit that the women's side of things has, which the men doesn't, is the ability to pick, global player. I mean, there are no restrictions on the overseas players that they can pick, which is obviously a big thing in the men side of it. Yeah, a huge

thing. We can have Indians. There are no Indians here this year. Dieti Shama was the only one. She pulled out because she wanted to rest before the Asia Cup. But yeah, that's a massive thing. You know, the Indians are the second best team in the world. We've had them in this tournament now for a number of years and that elevates the tournament. It also elevates eyes on the tournament as well, which

is only a good thing for us moving forward. But we can pick from every single country. you know, we've got that luxury. From what you've seen, from the women's side of things, who are the favourites for you? Well, I did say the Ovalinvincibles again, but the London spirit somehow should be one from three, but they just keep getting over the line.

And I think winning momentum in competitions is really, really important. For me, Manchester looked the same as they have every other year. It wouldn't surprise me if they were fifth or sixth again. They just don't know what it is about them. They just look very samey, even though they've changed a lot of us, same as Welsh Fire. but yeah I think over-invincible superchargers

are the two strongest teams but the spirit yes they've relied heavily on Grace Harris but they keep finding ways of getting over the line Superchargers women Alistair I've had a very good start yeah they have they have

and do honest with you like it's the beginning of the tournament you know you look for the early riders but actually it's about timing your run right isn't actually like you know the Welsh fire You know, you look at them, they came runners up last year. You look at them on paper and you think,

go, they're a really good side. And actually, I look at them on paper and I think, yeah, I actually think they would be my favour of them. But they're naught from three. But if I hate to get one win, two win, they sneak up, sneak enough up to, you know, get off into the playoffs. And you never know. But, yeah, it's about timing your run right in these tournaments.

I don't know what you talk about, Tim Allen's a group, but you probably need to win five, don't you, at the eight? Yeah, I think that's, that's, we've, look, we've been pretty successful in the, in the, in the, in the four years previous. And, yeah, or you can win four, but you need a bit of luck and a wash out here and there and, you know, go through with a tie. But, yeah, you want to try and get those early. I think the good thing about the 100, or one of the good things is that there are only eight group games and, you know, you're not having, whilst it can knock teams out early, it does put a lot on every game. And, look, most teams now are into their second and.

third game and there's going to be a couple of teams both in the men's and the women's side that are sat at the bottom of the group thinking okay we've got a go on a run now and we can't afford to lose and then that that brings some desperation into the tournament in the first or second week so yeah

I think having a nice short shot group stage in that regard to a good thing as well Alex we will let you go thank you very much for this evening perfect thought you were going to keep me all nine well I could do but no you're all right you can go Thank you, Alex Harley with us, on Five Live Cricket.

Just in this even shorter format, and you both talked about certain things that come towards it, but in an era where sport is dominated with feedback and analytics and so on and so forth, in an even shorter format, how much can you really go into the sort of positives and negatives of a defeat, say, to Mal? Because so much of it is on, you know, not the toss of a coin, but do you know what I mean, on a knife edge? Yeah, look, I think you'll be surprised about how little is probably made of it when you win and lose a game now. I think it is everybody's different and individuals need different things. I think that's more from my experience anywhere where it's gone now. I think as a team and as head coaches and stuff, you'll very rarely now lose a game and have a big debrief about it.

That just doesn't happen. That's not the way that most modern players like to operate. It's more now a case of, okay, if you've lost a game, that's okay. If you've lost two games, they'll start to just be more little individual conversations. And, you know, the captain and the coach might have more of a conversation in depth because, you know, they're the two people, I guess, making the big decisions. But, yeah, you won't, yeah, there certainly won't be a situation from my experience anyway, where you lose three games in a row, and then all of a sudden, you know, you're in for naughty boy nets

and you're having a big meeting and you're being told about where you've got it wrong. or if you've dropped a few catches, you know, compulsory fitness fielding the next day, you know, those other things that probably did happen 10, 15 years ago. It's now a lot more individualised because most players have just played so much.

And most players sometimes get a bit numb to losing because you kind of, if you play 70 T20 games in a year, it's going to go in cycles. You're going to have a good period. You're going to have a bad period. You're going to have a good period. You're going to have a middling period.

So you've got to just trust, you've got to try and create the right environment where you just trust in your players and pumping them up and almost go in the opposite way to try and get the best out of them. When you hear that, Alistair, does that kind of go against how a lot of modern sport operates? It also just sums up the franchise world, doesn't it? Where if you don't win the first three games,

we're not going to win this tournament, I'll go to the Cayman Islands next week and try and win that one. And it's unfortunately true. like the teams you're not building you're not building teams to last you're building teams for eight games that is what you know you're talking about naughty boy nets well you never have

naughty boy nets when you've got three weeks with players and you want to keep them happy because if the player doesn't like the coach and you're not winning guess who's the first person to go is the coach so there's a there is an element of trust you know be nicey nice to hope you get a bit of luck and win the tournament

now the balancing acts of something like the great coaches now I haven't worked with Andy flower for a long time but be great to see how he operates he's the best you know he's the best coach i think around in t-20 the franchise world of the best record it'd be really interesting to see how he operates because when i you know when he was you know he was the england coach and when he was around essex he he had that mentality it was about building you know building for the long term it was tough you know the norway boy nets weren't they weren't cool norway boy nets but you know he put us under pressure but quite a lot of the time and to make a

better to make us improve and guess what it works but in the franchise world that is not there that is just not there it's about trying to gel aside for a really short period of time hopefully you start the tournament well you get into tournament and give you a chance to get in the playoffs if not you're done in the players pat the bags they go they go to the next one and that is ultimately what it is you know it you know for me who's who hasn't played any franchise cricket it uh you know hearing that is like just how do you get the satisfaction from it? How do you get the real satisfaction and winning a tournament with players for three weeks

and then never playing with them again where you know what it's like this is the old school old pro here chappas of saying you work for something for so long like with a county team where it's taken five six years players come and go yes but five six years to get to do something successful

and you win something like that it must be it is a lot more is very special but I understand the franchise world so I understand why players are numb to winning and losing and it is about hopefully as a player nailing your skill well enough to get another gig and that's pretty much what it is although the only experience an example I have of that goes against that point slightly tomorrow which is what I you know given the Manchester original's connection was lucky enough to go into the men's dressing room

after each final that the men lost they lost two on the spin and after the second final defeat I actually thought they were numb when I saw them afterwards. I mean maybe that's a final and they had it in the palm of their hand really and threw it away but I didn't feel like

they didn't, I know you're not saying they don't care but it felt like that did obviously it was a final not the third game of a league campaign but it did feel like there was an element of feeling numb at that defeat yeah sorry just not without trying to backtrack too much but I think the successful teams in

T20 cricket or at least the franchises that are consistently up there or thereabouts they do great culture and that's probably one of the hardest things to do in T20 cricket and they do manage to retain you know the core of the side so for me you'll I certainly care a lot more about playing for Sussex and Southern Brave than I probably do the rest of the year because I I've got that, obviously I'm the captain of Sussex. I've played there for 11 years. I care about the people, you know, on the pitch, off the pitch. So, yeah, I lose the game for Sussex.

It means I hurt a lot more than I do necessarily playing in the winter and saying, look, this is my fifth year for playing for Southern Brave. I think we've got me, Chris Jordan, Craig Overton and James Vince, who have been there all five years. And then we've probably got another four or five players that have been there at least three years, if not four. So, and same for Overland Invincibles. They've kept their team together for a large part.

part for the last five years. So, and it's no surprise to see that, you know, us two have been the best teams in the tournament so far. So there is a direct correlation, in my opinion, to having that bit of culture and understanding and having each other's back. And you do definitely get that 5, 10%. But unfortunately, teams that maybe don't get it right, they have to clear house.

And that might be the coach goes or, you know, with the way retentions work, they go, okay, no, we're only going to retain five players this year and we're going to try again. But then, you know, that doesn't always work. Can you bring in... The whole system, bizarrely, is actually about making it very hard to create a culture because of the draft system and the salary bands and players thinking they can move up a band if they move somewhere else.

The whole way that franchise cricket and the main is structured makes it very difficult, I think, to create cultures. I'd be very surprised if the current model of the salary bands stays after this year because you're right, essentially to, sorry for people that maybe don't know how it works, but essentially you have two players at each price, and it kind of goes down starting, we have two players on your top wage, and then it goes down. So everybody knows what everybody's earning. So it's quite transparent, but it also means that you can eye up, okay, I've done well,

I should be getting, I should go up a band, or I should go up two bands, or, okay, the team wants to move me down a band, no, I'm going to leave and try and hold my money elsewhere. So that doesn't, that's, that doesn't really work. and you're relying to speak about culture and without wanting to speak about on other people's behalf, I've had years where I probably could have earned more money and left, if I left Southern Brave,

you know, I had a good year. Maybe I could have gone for the top bracket one year if I went back in the draft, but I didn't want to, you know, staying at Southern Brave. For me, I live in Brighton. Yeah. You know, I'm an hour down the road.

My family can come. My kids, you know, they're here tonight. They're in bed, hopefully. But, you know, those are little things. Okay, I don't need to go up one salary bracket. it because I like bowling at the utility bowls. It's got nice big boundaries. I'm familiar with all the guys here.

So for me, that was a personal decision I've made. Whereas other guys, you'll literally see it played for maybe four different teams in five years because they've just put their name back in the draft and they're chasing the cash. So everyone's motives are different and I'm never going to look down upon anybody for making whatever they think is the best decision of themselves. But I think you'll see that model change now. be an auction or at least just an open, more of an open kind of salary cap situation where

you can sign guys to, you know, multi-year contracts, which will hopefully help with that culture side of things. Would you have liked to captain in the 100, Alistair, bearing in mind everything that we've just been talking about? Well, I need to hit a few more fours and sixes before I got... Yeah. Do you know what? I would have liked it just because it's another way of leading, a different way of leading.

You're not building a team for the future. You're not developing players as such. It's here and now trying to win. And you're testing your skills. So you would have been a... You would have to captain differently, would you? Well, I think you make decisions slightly differently off the field because you're...

I mean, every time you take over a captain aside, that side needs a different thing. And obviously, if you're a county captain, and you're taking a side who hasn't won, you're looking at different things, you make decisions because I think, well, do you know what, I'm going to build it for three years,

I'll pick a younger player rather than an older player. Test match is, you know, you have a chance, a test match captain, you have a chance to, you do have a chance to mould the side a little bit. I'm not quite on picking younger players and older players, you're trying to pick the best side, but you're definitely trying to build cultures

and getting people playing together as a way. Well, this is just instant. it's all about instant success. You know, you probably actually wouldn't be that fuss about off-field stuff as much because you're going to have a group of 11. You know, you would have hopefully been involved in the drafts. You're picking people that you want in your team anyway. And you know the characters as well.

So you kind of do form a little bit. So would I like to experience absolutely is just something very, very different to whatever I experienced before. So the chance of Daniel Vince as well, he's been captain in it. So this is the fifth year in a row. he's still converting it to T20 when he's out in the middle and the conversations. In terms of run chases or when you're defending, I think that we, again, not speaking for other teams, but we've still found it or he has, easier to compute in his mind to, he calculates

it into, okay, this is the equivalent of nine and over we're chasing. Because sometimes when you look at it on the scoreboard, it can look quite daunting. But when you convert it to T20, I said, okay, it's only about nine and a half. over and you back yourself to chase nine and a half and over. So that's the mindset thing that I know we've got into. Do you genuinely still look at the scoreboard, I think? Blimey, what the heck does that? Because it is a different scoreboard, does it?

Do you look at it here? Go, what do I have to do? Well, it's just, yeah, just trying to put it into language that's more familiar. I think that's the key thing. I think for bowling, it's different. I think when you're bowling and you're defending, it's a bit more black and white. but I think batters who are having to look ahead in terms of a rate and where they're at

because normally for a T20 it's up on the scoreboard the required rate and the current rate whereas we don't have that in the 100s so to try and get that figure in the batter's minds that's the chat that's going on at Southern Brain anyway what are you going to say Alistair I agree I look at it when I've commentated on

I do exactly the same 30 or yeah 45 or 30 ball you're thinking right what is that what is that how does it because yeah like what do you need to do It's more what you need to do and what do I need, if I get a boundary now, does that impact? Do I need another boundary or can I just rotate the strike? And in my mind, when I commentate it, I definitely do that. But as Tamar's right, it's absolutely right,

is what you're relating to the skill you're most comfortable to. But then, no, you go in, so 45 off 30, so that's nine and over. But hang on, I haven't got overs. So off there. But you know what to do with nine and over. If you hit, basically say, if you hit six. It's a feeling, is it? It's a feeling.

You hit a six and say, well, actually, the next few, but I've hit a six. So do I need to take another risk? Maybe not. Maybe I can just knock a few around. It's not the modern way to knock a few around. But it's just that, it's that almost the clarity of like, where are we at in this chase? And that's what I would go back to the beginning of the show. I don't think sides really know what good schools are because of just the unfamiliarisation of even the scoreboard.

And so, yeah, I think it all links in a little bit of that. Let's move on to, by the way, just one other on the captain's it. Do you think, even though it's different formats, that all of this is experienced for Harry Brooke? Yes, but nothing prepares you to Captain England. So, yes, tactically, I think, and just being comfortably in making decisions on the field. I think the more you do that, the more you feel comfortable doing it. But, you know, you can read all the leadership books. You can captain all the franchises you want in the world or the counties.

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So there you have it. Turkey is med. Flavour, history, St. Paul and St. Nick. Time to start packing We are back with the Fantasy 606 podcast Whoa, well Chris, I've got to stop you there We have changed our name this season To the FPL podcast from BBC Sports

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Come and play the game with us as we continue to teach Chris about fantasy Premier League. The FPL podcast from BBC Sports. Listen on BBC Sounds. This is the CMS podcast. Let's talk about England's test future next, a week on since that incredible finish at the Oval. Henry Moran has been speaking to Chris Wokes. He did this at the end of that. of last week about how he's feeling

about that dislocated shoulder and I'm going to give you a warning here if you are a bit squeamish maybe sort of turn it down a little bit because he's going to spare us none of the details I mean I've been better Henry but at the same time you know it could be a lot worse I mean the fact that it's my left arm is a bit of a bonus I suppose

but yeah still don't know a huge amount still waiting on the full report but I've had scans just trying to figure out what will be the next steps I suppose and options will be presumably surgery or? Yeah, or not. So obviously, you know, waiting to see what the extent of the damage is,

but I think the options will be either to have surgery or to go down like a rehab route and try and get it as strong as possible. But I suppose naturally with that, there'll be a chance of recurrence, but I suppose that could be a risk that you're just willing to take sort of thing. Any idea about time out, ashes, that sort of thing? Well, I think from what I've heard from, you know, physios and specialists is that, you know, the rehab of a surgery option would be closer to four months or three

to four months. So, you know, it's obviously touching on ashes and on Australia. So, you know, it makes it tricky. Obviously, from a rehab point of view, you can probably get it strong again within eight weeks sort of thing. So, you know, that could be an option, but again, obviously still waiting to get the full report on it. Take us through that hour and a half or so after it happened, so talk us through it. Yeah, I mean, immediately. as soon as I'd hit the deck and I knew I was in a bit of trouble obviously I felt the shoulder pop out and obviously the pain then just immediately pretty come pretty much comes on straight away and yeah just got back to the physio room and was trying to figure out a way of getting it back into where it's supposed to be I suppose which was quite I suppose that's the anxious moments of you know when you do something like that is like you know what if this doesn't go back in you know what's the option then so um thankfully we got it back in about half an hour later with some you know with some drugs and and then figuring out a way of best to do it with the doctors and physios, and half an hour there felt like a lifetime, as you can imagine.

Is it literally just brute force, twist and sort of mechanical shoving it around? I think the issue, I mean, it's the first time I've ever done it, so it was news to me, but obviously everything spasms around it, which makes obviously it harder to go back where it's supposed to go, right? So I think it kind of half went back in and then my peck spasmed and brought it back out, and then it was a good 10, 15 minutes, I think, until everything else kind of started to relax until we managed to kind of Anita, our doc, kind of put her knee in my sort of armpit

and then gradually just twisted me back into position. There was a big clunk and it was painful, but the relief kind of outweighed the pain, should we say. And then the amazing moment on that final day. I mean, talk us through that because you've had some special moments on cricket fields, but that was a different moment, equally special in some way.

Yeah, in a weird way it was. Look, it was nice to have, obviously, the support of everyone there, you know the evasion or whatever it is but in my eyes it was never really a question of of whether i would go out there or not it was a matter of how i was going to do it and how we had to face up i suppose that was what was always going through my mind obviously i was hopeful that we weren't going to be required i wasn't going to be required and we'd get the win without having to go out there but you know when you get the opportunity you do what's best for your

team and um you know in that moment was to go out there and try and find a way with gus at the other end to try and get us over the line and you know unfortunately it didn't happen but you know I'm grateful and thankful that I put up the fight and tried to do it for the team. Is there any part of you that thinks, I wouldn't have minded if facing a ball, see what happens? It's easy saying that in hindsight. At the time, I suppose, that's where the anxiety was at, was having to face a ball at, potentially 90 mile an hour, facing the wrong way around, one-handed, you know, with quite a bit of exposure and, you know, facing short stuff wouldn't have been too nice at that sort of pace.

So, you know, I suppose, you know, in hindsight, it would have been nice to have been nice to have. been able to have that sort of fairy tale, but that's not really what we were, what was there for. It was there to just try and get the team over the line. Hopefully Gus was going to do the majority of the damage, but not to be, unfortunately. Reaction from the public has been extraordinary. Has it surprised you how you've been seen? Yeah, I think so, because, you know, in my eyes, it was never a question, you know, it was just a matter of I was always going to do that and I believe anyone else in that just room would have done the same. So it doesn't really, you know, it's not like it was just me making a decision. I think everyone would

have done the same for the team. So, but, yeah. I suppose it's quite surprising how much people have sent the love, sent the support, and said how brave it was, but as I said, in my eyes, it was just business as usual, really. And we spoke after Rishab Pan was hurt at Old Trafford, and he said, no way, substitutes in cricket, not a bit of it. Has your view changed? No, I do lie with Stokesy on this a little bit, because I've played the game for near enough 20 years

and I've played the long format for a long time, and it just seems like there'd be too many loopholes to kind of figure out. I think it'd be a very grey area as to who's injured, who's not. I understand like a freak accident like mine, a freak accident like Rishabs. They're quite clear and obvious, but at the same time, not every injury is like that. And how do you, you know, determine what's clear and obvious and what's not? So I just think, you know, test cricket makes you resilient. It makes you, you know, determined to be as fit as possible.

and I think we might take a bit of that away if substitutes were to come in. And it was that determination to save one run ultimately, but that's the attitude. Yeah, it is the attitude, and we nearly come down to a point where that one run was the difference, you know, and I was probably desperate for that one run to be the difference, but it wasn't meant to be on this occasion. But, you know, I think we've got that mantra as a team where we try and save every run. And, yeah, the only reason that I did injure myself was because it was wet, my hands slipped and went from underneath me, whereas, you know, had it been just,

dry, that wouldn't have happened. So just a freak one-off accident that unfortunately didn't go my way. Just finally, reflections on the series, you had a few days to think about it. It was extraordinary. It was extraordinary, yeah. It was amazing to be a part of it. I don't think when you're amongst it and when you're in it, you probably don't realize how special it's been until you, you know, you hear everyone's view on it and opinion post series. But yeah, it was, it was what test cricket's all about, you know, teams going toe to toe to try and win for their team. You know, it's very much a to and throw series. I think, both teams will be kind of

disappointed that they didn't win 3-1 so it's kind of you know in that sense sums it up that 2-2 was probably fair but at the same time both teams will be you know a bit disappointed they didn't get over the line Chris Wokes talking with Henry Moran I mean

you will have had your say on substitutes already Alistair I am sure but would you agree with Wokes and Stokes on it I do sorry I do I know I've heard like Michael Vaugh is very strong on having substitutes

because it kind of lessens the spectacle like 10 versus 11. I just know what. They're doing it, aren't there, in the rest of the world and the next six months in first class cricket. I haven't actually seen the legislation,

but they're saying the substitutes are going to be allowed. I don't know when they're going to be allowed if it's just any time during the game for an injury, but it'd be really interesting to see if they've got all the loopholes sold up because it's all well and good doing, a statement in October, get to Sheffield Shield Final, for example, and something happens when I haven't really thought about it because of their experimenting, everyone will remember

that for a long time. I just think what is a clear and obvious injury is such a hard thing to define. A broken bone clearly obviously is. A discreet shoulder is, but I use the example of the Pant one. Now, Pant did actually break his toe, which is fine. But the, There was, there could have been a bit of me where he, a bit of that way, it was just a really bad bruise. You know, sometimes you, you know, it's a nasty, and you can't walk. Your foot swells up, but it's a bruise. The scan says, well, he's fine, but he can't actually walk. Now, what do you do then?

Like, because, but bruises can be really bad. There's absolutely no doubt about it. And then he's saying, well, I can't walk. I've got to play. But then I'm batting and I get a bruised finger. Is that the same? I just think there's so many loopholes that it'll go, that you could. happen that I'm just not sure it's the right thing to do in test cricket.

Would you agree to Marm? I mean, I would err on that side as well, simply because I feel like so many sports at the moment are about how many loopholes you can exploit or how you can find your way around this rule or that rule. And it would be ripe for exploiting, wouldn't it? Yeah, absolutely. It would. I think maybe for the first little period of time, everybody would, you know, be really good and respectful and play by the rules. But as time goes on, yeah, as you said, the margin for taking advantage would get bigger and bigger. And it happens pretty much every game in T20 cricket anyway, where a batter, batting first, you know, he isn't the best fielder. He's had his hit.

And then all of a sudden he's got a tight hamstring and he doesn't come out to field. That's a, you know, a water down version of, you know, what would happen. And it can happen in T20 cricket. because it's obviously a shorter game, more fluid game, but over the course of Test match, it can alter the game and affect the results. So, yeah, I think you have to, it is just an unfortunate wrinkle of the game,

that a game can be ruined. I don't know if Kiki was playing. There was a game at Essex once. I was 12 man down at Kent, and Maurice Chambers was opening the bowl, he rolled his ankle, maybe third over of the game, and he's done, he blew his ankle out, and I had to field for the rest of the game.

down at doing fine leg to fine leg as a youngster and Essex had one less bowler and that's just you know that's just just how the game just how the game goes unfortunately it is unfortunate because you do you want to see the best versus the best and in a series that we just had between England and India that was captivating you want to you want to give it the best opportunity to produce greatness but it also produced you know one of the one of the one of the better 40 minutes of TV you could you could watch it at the end of day five of that oval test. ways, well, not in some ways, in many ways, it added to it being even more captivating. And not just on that final 40 minutes, but, you know, to then, it added an extra layer

to how Ollie Pope had to captain his side and manage his bowlers, Alistair. It added to the drama. Yeah, I think so. I mean, but then is it right for someone to go out there face a 90-mile-an-hour bowl with a disillated shoulder? It's, you know, what other sport does that kind of happen in? But, I mean, the reception Chris Swokes got walking down the stairs was spine tingling. It was absolutely fantastic. And do you know what? There was a lot of me wanting to face a ball just to see what he was going to do. Yeah.

I think he was actually going to do about left-handed in the end. Well, stand up left-handed. I'd stand like facing left hand, obviously, use his right hand as a top hand. But unfortunately he didn't. But that's just because I wanted to see it and I didn't have to do it 150 yards away. to facing 90 mile and a half all over the discussion. It's interesting, actually, as you say, Wokesy can kind of joke about it,

and we can talk about it lightly now because it didn't happen. But there is a world where Woksey, obviously, he had to face a ball, and he's completely unprotected, really. That's like a boxer. I mean, you're putting a boxer in the ring, essentially, against another fits boxer

without the proper defence. You know what I mean? Like, there's a world where Woksey gets hit in the head by a, you know, a bouncer, and he's physically unable to defend it and he gets hit in the head and there's repercussions as Cookie mentioned

or cricket seems to kind of live in its own really different world sometimes away from the rest of sport but thankfully we're not having that conversation and this may be a stupid question and I may get a stupid answer I don't know Tamal but what would change for you if you would have had to have bowled at work there

anything? I said the same thing when we were watching down here before we're training and we're watching and I said I'd hate to be in that situation there where you're the one to bowl at him because you're almost you're tense up because if he's going out there he's in one arm the whole nobody in the

world outside of Indian fans and your Indian team want you to do well the whole world is on Chris Wokes's side there and you feel like you have to bowl at the stumps because A that's your best chance of getting a wicket but B you don't want to be a bloke that's going out there and bouncing a bloke with you know batting with

one arm the other way around Now, I might be wrong, but it might get to that point. You might bowl a few on the stumps and wakesy and manages to get it out, but you're not in a good place. The best case scenario is you bowl one ball and it's full straight at the stumps and that it gets him out in that situation. But I think it's a horrible situation to be in.

Would you be right to you that a person one-arm, discreet shoulder, like, smacked you through the covers of four? Is that where you're more worried about? No, I'd be that confident that wouldn't happen. Like, you have to be. You're batting the wrong way around as well. But, yeah, it would have been a horrible situation, but I guess we'll never know.

What has that series with India, we've only got three or four minutes left, but what has that series with India taught you, if anything, Alistair, ahead of an Ashes? Well, we know our top seven's going to be. England know their top seven going to be into that thing, which is a good thing. They've all had their moments in that series.

The players under pressure going into it, like Pope and Crawley in particular. And moments you think, right, they are a solid top seven. And also, the other thing it's taught me is the cartel of fast bowlers, England have the firepower to go down there and be very competitive with those seven or eight fast bowlers that they could take. And I think if they're going to win this series, they're going to have to be really, I think, quite brave in selection

and go almost, not against hunches, but go right, we are almost picking these three for this game the next game we're going to pick these three and freshen up because I think those bowlers they're not a Cummings Hazelwood-Star resilient set of bowlers they're different they are they're quick but they're fragile and I think a Gus Atkinson bowling 88 miles an hour like he did in that game is a better version

that you know like right he starts at 88 and towards the end of last summer where he played all seven games he's down at 83 and he isn't the same bowler And I think a lot of them, Joffar Archer is the same. Like Lords, he was up close to 90, above 90. And then Old Trafford, yes, on a different surface, on a slower surface. He didn't operate at that elite level, which in terms of pace-wise, which I think separates him from being, you know, world-class performer to being a very good bowler.

So I think England, if they get that right, their fast bowler mix line up, and it might be leaving a guy out who's bowled really well in one game for the next game to freshen up. I think they could cause his Australian batting line up quite a lot of grief. Would you agree to Malice? How about that pace attack is, so what we're talking at? Kus and Kass, Tongue, Wood, Archer.

Have I missed one out? Well, they're the top five, and then you could have Overton. There's a couple of, you know, there's a couple of youngsters. People are obviously getting quite excited about in the 100 bowling quite quickly. Yeah, well, I think the spinner, obviously,

because if they don't play a spinner, then that brings another fast bowler. in, but then how confident are you in Root and Beffle? And then that's a whole other conversation, not that Beffle's probably, you know, down to be in that top seven. So, yeah, they've got, they've still got decisions to make, I think, as Cookie said, outside of the top seven. But one thing it is, is I think this test series has certainly piqued interest and got everybody excited about, you know, about whatever the wind, not that there needs to be excitement kind of brought about for an Ashes series. But that was much watched TV, wasn't it, for six

weeks or however long that tour went on for and hopefully the series in Australia will be just the same. As a lad you will know from your time at Southern Brave, although he isn't there anymore. Has Ray and Ahmed's season changed anything when it comes to this ashes? I really like Razor and I think it's been great. He's scoring a lot of runs and he's only been taking his wickets recently. I think his numbers were a little bit deceiving in terms of like the averages and that were good but I think for the first six weeks of the season he didn't actually take very many wickets and then he's come into it as. as the seasons come on, which is what you want to see.

And weight of runs is brilliant, and it's still only, I think he's 21, let's say. If not, this tour could be another tour, you know, down the line. But, yeah, it's great to see him doing well. And, yeah, he's doing well again in the 100 as well. So he's obviously confident enjoying his cricket. And he's the type of person that, you know, we'll grab the opportunity with both hands. I think if he does get a call. Go well for the rest of the 100, Tamal.

Thank you. We'll talk soon. Cheers, Guilla. Alistair. Thank you as well to Mark Mills and Alastair Cook with us on Five Live cricket. This is the TMS podcast. In the mid-90s, whilst Britain was having its beckon moment, South Africa was having its own.

But cricket captain Hansie Cronier didn't kick the ball. He hit it for six. I must congratulate in particular, Captain Hansa Cronier. Hansi Cronier could do no wrong. But in January 2000, he did. South African cricket captain Hansi Cronier and three teammates have been accused of match fixing. I'm Mark Butcher, former England cricketer.

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