Test Match Special - Fleming & Root to lead England Test team

Episode Date: July 30, 2026

Henry Moeran speaks to former England captain Michael Vaughan, BBC chief cricket commentator Jonathan Agnew, and former New Zealand wicket keeper Katey Martin to discuss Stephen Fleming being appointed England's new Test head coach and Joe Root returning to captain the side.

You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Hello, I'm Henry Moran. Welcome to the Test Match Special podcast on a seismic day for the England men's side. Stephen Fleming is the new head coach of the test team. And returning to captain is Joe Root. Fleming will take over after the upcoming Pakistan series beginning on August 19th. You'll be able to hear all of it on Sports Extra and BBC Sounds. And Joe Root is back to.

captain in that series, captain with immediate effect. We'll get the thoughts of Jonathan Agnew, as well as former New Zealand wicketkeeper Katie Martin, who knows Stephen Fleming well. But first, let's speak to a man who knows Joe Root very well. That's the former England captain, Michael Vaughn, who's alongside me. And Michael, what a day, extraordinary news. What are your initial thoughts? Stephen Fleming's been one of the names that has been mentioned over the last few weeks, obviously since Rob Key decided to stand Basmiculam down from the test job. Annie Flora, I think from what I've read, is the one that they wanted. He turned that down.

So it was like, okay, how do we get the next best? And I think what they've done is they found someone who's very experienced. Some will say, oh, he's not coached in Red Bull Creek, but you've got a very experienced manager, very experienced coach, who's been around the modern game with Chennai Super Kings over the. the course of the last few years. He was a very, very good captain back in the day, a very good tactician,

renowned for being a really good man-manager. So of all the candidates that have been mentioned, you know, I think Tom Moody would have been a good choice as well. I think Darren Lehman would have been a good choice. I think they've gone with someone which you look at the combination and the combination of having Bazma Cullum still as the whiteboard coach and then someone coaching the test match team who doesn't know Bazma-McClellan. that could have been really tricky.

So I think Stephen Fleming has been brought in for that reason. I think he's obviously very close to McCullen. I believe they're in business together. Actually, I think they sell a bit of lamb together, Henry, which is interesting. So there'll be able to sell. There's a few nice lamb shanks along the way. Yeah, I think they needed someone that could work with Baz McCullum because someone that doesn't know Baz and his style,

I think it could have got very, very messy. Joe Root you know as a second go at captain so we saw him captain a few weeks ago in that second test at the Oval with a very inexperienced England side and I just wonder from Joe's perspective

if he needed this you know just to try and get that really enthusiasm to get up every morning to play test match cricket I know he's getting ever closer to Sachin Tendell's record and many will say you know is that not motivation enough and there'll be many England fans going

our best players now the captain but I just look at Joe at his stage of his career and the amount of cricket that he's played. I just wonder whether he needed this. He need this little trigger, this little motivational tool that should get him out of bed in the morning. He hasn't got that many of his close friends in the team anymore. You know, a lot of his teammates have retired or moved on. So maybe this is exactly what Joe Root needs as well.

And what about the sort of memories for Root as being test captain? Because, yeah, it was a very different time, a lot of restrictions around COVID. and my abiding memory is he looked haunted by the end of it. Is there a worry it could impact him as a player? Yeah, I mean, I thought you got a bit of a dodgy hand. I mean, around the time that he was appointed, England were trying to win the 50 over World Cup, and all the England eggs were put in the white ball basket,

and it came to fruition with that magnificent win at Lords in 2019. Then COVID struck, you know, none of us really know how hard it would be to captain in a COVID time. Well, Joe had to do that. And as you're right, that Caribbean saw where it came to and Andy. He looked like it was a job that was just a little bit too far for him. You know, he's a bit older, a bit wiser. I think he's got a really good coach beside him in Stephen Fleming.

So that's going to help. I think Stephen will help out with a lot of the stuff that some captains get drained by. I think Stephen will be excellent at kind of organising the dress room and making sure that the tactical side of the team is in good order. Tatically, he's been found a little bit wanting. the past. So it wasn't just COVID. It wasn't just the fact that England were focused on whiteboard cricket. There was a few times in his captaincy reign.

And also the Ovalon, that second morning when there was no Joffar Archer for an hour and a half. That was a strange tactical manoeuvre. So there are areas that Joe can improve as a captain. He'll probably be the first to admit that. But I just think in terms of his motivation and in terms of what left is there for Joe Rout to do in the game, of course, there's a few runs to get past Satchin. but I think he's looking at next year's ashes. If he can be an Ashes winner,

a world leader in terms of the runs that he scored in Test Match cricket, you can't ask for a more perfect career. So he's got this chance with a new kind of fresh approach to the test match team with here at the helm and with a really good coach beside him. His difficulty will be getting a structure in his team, you know, and getting a formula without an all-round like Ben Stokes. And I'll keep saying,

I just wonder over the next few months. I'm sure Ben won't be. back in 20206, but I just wonder whether having Joe at the top of the tree in terms of a captain, someone like Stephen Fleming, who has obviously coached Ben Stokes in the IPL, I just wonder whether this appointment and both these appointments has just given us all a little bit of a glimmer that it may happen. The dream may happen next year that Ben might come back. Was there ever another option for England in terms of who was going to be captain? Because I suppose Harry Brooke is the obvious other candidate, but once they decided he was

was just going to focus on the white ball stuff, which is apparently what is, you know, that would seem to be what they're looking at. I mean, was there another option? Well, you kind of, do you go from outside of the group, which is a massive risk? Because you're bringing in someone potentially that has not stabilized themselves in the test match team. I look at someone like Sam Curran. Would it have been more sensible for Harry Brooke to do the test job and the 50 over job and something like Sam Curran to come and do the T20 job?

You know, you get a feeling that Harry Brooke and Basma Cullam are a strong combination, and they didn't want to break that up. And maybe Harry gave the indication that doing all three jobs is just a little bit too much. And I totally agree. I think to try and captain all three formats is near unimpossible. So I would think that Harry would have wanted to carry on doing both whiteboard teams, which almost rules him out in a way of doing the test match team. And you think, oh, could Sam Curran come and captain the test match team?

You think, well, that's a tall ass because he's not a guarantee. seed selection in that side. So you could have gone Jacob Bethel as a young player before. We're asking a lot of a young player that's batting at three and he's not kind of established himself in Test Match cricket to then captain the side. Ben Duckett has been mentioned as well.

The candidates aren't crying out, Henry. And that would be my concern and one of the goals for Stephen Fleming would be to try and make sure that the succession planning of the England Test Match team is a better one than what we've seen of late. When you think that Baz McCullum,

were sacked and we're all kind of looking around for the next test match coach and obviously we've ended up with Stephen Flemm that looks like a very sensible appointment but the leadership of the test match side I know Bath's finished and said oh we've got plenty of leads in the dress room but we don't see many captains in those players at the minute and that'll be one of Stephen Fleming's jobs to make sure that whenever his time is up we've got a stronger group of player that potentially three or four of them captain. And more importantly, it's the style of playing. I'm kind of thick and tired of talking about England's style of play. The style of play that I want to see is England winning.

Whatever that style is on that given day and whatever that style is that given week, that given session, that given hour, England has just got to play the right style of cricket that wins games of cricket. I'm sick and tired of talking about talent and the gulf of talent in English cricket, you know, prove it now, go and win games of cricket. Winners and Ash is next year, the white ball team going to compete heavily in that World Cup in South Africa after the ashes next season as well. We can only talk about talent and the kind of gulf of talent in English cricket for so long. They've got to start winning games of cricket and winning trophies now. What about the length of deal for Stephen Fleming? Up until September 2030,

in four years, there's a lot of stock being put in. Yeah. And I guess that's, you know, I'm surprised that he's not coming for the Pakistan series. I thought, you know, August the 19th, a few weeks playing Pakistan would be the ideal time for a new coach to just come in and assess the situation, get to know everyone within the group, get to know people within the game. I know he's going to come down the back end of the seasons to start planning for the tour of South Africa. But I guess that's the situation that Rob Keyes found himself in. It's a little bit of a mess.

And he's had to go with someone that can't fly over to the UK and coached for three games against Pakistan, which I would have thought would have been a more sensible start to a reign when you think that Stephen will be coaching an Ashes series next summer, and it'll have only have coached one test match in the UK before that Ashes series against Australia. I thought the three tests against Pakistan would have been a perfect start. And what about the, I suppose, the excitement levels,

because when Ben Stokes and Brendan McCullum were appointed, there was a real sense that there was a buzzer, round. Does this bring the buzz of Baz or is this just a little bit safe as an option? Well, I don't think you can ever ask for a more experienced combination. You've got Joe Root who's played so many games. He's captained plenty of times before and how much is he going to use from that experience of being captain the first time in his second time of being the England captain. Stephen Fleming has been around the game for many, many years as a player as a captain. and obviously as a coach in the IPL.

I mean, there'll be so many of them, but he's not coached in Red Ball cricket. I see Stephen Fleming as being very similar in a way to Baz, a leader of the group. You know, he's renowned for being a magnificent leader. The one thing that this test match team need is coaching. You know, so I want to know from his time when he's going to start, you know, who's going to be in his background team because these players need coaching. They need to be really ironing out this keeper stood up tact. you know, on the technical side of batting,

how many of our players can play a rock-solid forward defence? You know, how many of them can look themselves in the mirror and go, you know what, when Michael Neesda bowls that good length, you know, when Matt Henry balls that good length, when Scott Bowling Bowling Bowls, that good length, just on and around the off-stump, how many of our players can play with control of forward defence shot? They won't like saying it, and they won't like talking about technique,

but technique wins in test match cricket, and the technical side of England's players and batting has been found wanting. It got found wanting in the winter, against Michael Neeson. It was found wanting against New Zealand, just of late against Nathan Smith, with Matt Henry.

We saw at Trent Bridge, the technical side of our quality players were found out. So those just below that ladder have got a lot of work to do, and the technical side of the coaching team is going to be very, very important to get this test team,

playing good cricket, playing sensible cricket, but more importantly, winning the moment. And to win the moment, again, you know, mentioning, technique in English cricket, it seems that it's been a word that we've not been allowed to use for a number of years and, you know, the technical side of batting at the highest level is very, very

important. So it's all right putting a really good leader of the group, but you know, I think they need an also, maybe one or two changes in the background scene to make sure that these players are getting really well coached as well. And just finally, are you excited? Well, I'm on my holidays at the minute, yes. I've been excited with English cricket many, many times, and I've been entertained over the course of the last few years by the England side, but, you know, fundamentally haven't won.

You know, a five-match series. We haven't won one for many, many years. We haven't won an Ashley series since 2015. Australia will arrive next summer with a very experienced group, and it is how Stephen Fleming and Joe Rooke can get together to make sure that this England side can win an Ashley's series for the first time. I mean, what will be 12 years. And you won't want to lose that one because the next one's in Australia.

And history tells you that winning in Australia is the tall order. So if I was Stephen Fleming and Jueru, I get to work quickly and make sure that this group of England players know exactly what they expect in terms of the style of personality they want. You can never really say the style of cricket that you want to play because, as I've said before, you want to play the style of cricket that is required on that given day, that given hour. and that's really important for this group of players to understand that, you know, we don't want a theme to be labelled as one team

of playing the basketball. That's only the way that you play because it's been proven over the last few years, if you play one style of play, themes will find you out. So we've got to be a side that can play all the different styles, the different kind of gears, and if they can get to that standard,

and they can somehow find an all around it, and they can somehow convince Ben Stokes to play again next year, then I'll start. to get excited, Henry. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Well, I'm pleased to say, joining me now is the BBC's chief cricket commentator Jonathan Agnew. Agnes, this is a fascinating day and a couple of very interesting appointments. What's your initial reaction?

Yeah, it is. You're absolutely right. It's been a question of sort of eliminating likely suspects for the coach's job, hasn't it, over the last few weeks? One by one, they seem to have fallen by the way. wayside or actually not even been involved in the proceedings at all. I mean, speak like Justin Langer, Darren Lehman, who I spoke to a couple of days ago, and I know would have been very interested in the job, was not interviewed for it. So whether they've just

had one particular person in mind most of the way through it, I think once Andy Flower quite clearly ruled himself out, and I think that was always going to be the case. I think that really was flying a kite to suggest that he would give up the work that he has to come and take on the England job again. But once that was made clear, it appears that there haven't been that many suspects, if you like,

candidates for this. Stephen Fleming, well, I mean, I've worked with him quite a lot as a New Zealand captain. He's a traditional test player. A very communicative, interesting

man, is quite strong on the spirit of cricket. He will bring a more traditional feel, I imagine, to the test game than Brendan McCullum did. That said, of course, he's spent his time, or much of his time, since retiring as New Zealand's captain in franchise cricket and in the IPL, although they did have a successful run at Nottingham, I'm sure, in the championship. But he does have, therefore, that influence to his game. But I think as far as test cricket is concerned, he will bring a firm, solid, more

traditional hand to the tiller, if you like. that has been the case over the last two or three years when really England, I think, they really, well, they sort of, they did lose their way. And they didn't accept that there is a sort of a hardworking, defensive side to test cricket that is essential to success in test cricket. And Stephen Fleming was a very orthodox traditional opening batsman in test cricket. And that's, therefore, what I imagine, the sort of influence that he will bring,

along with Joe Root. who again has clearly been preferred to Harry Brooke, or I suspect more likely for one of two reasons, or maybe both reasons, they want Harry Brooke to remain as the white ball captain, and therefore the test cricket job would be too much for him, but also whether or not he's actually suitable for that job yet. And as I've said before,

to be England captain is more than simply somebody who just changes the field. To be England captain is actually quite a statesman-like figure. And bear in mind that some of the, the woes that England have suffered off the field have been firmly laid at Brooks door over the last few months and maybe they felt that was just a step too far and he's got to concentrate on his game I think most people would agree that certainly his his test match game has been disappointing and so maybe this is the opportunity of him just knuckle down a bit focus on that and we'll see how long Joe Root goes on for but I

imagine that they'll try and keep him on now until the end of the ashes next year any concerns over the impact it could have on somebody who England do rather rely on I think it's fair to say in that batting line up well yes I mean that's a fair comment of course you know I think Joe Root was was pretty much worn out of the captaincy when it all started to go wrong and there was that long losing streak now it wasn't helped obviously by COVID and the impact that that had in all sorts of ways on

cricket and the fact that they sort of had to had to keep playing in very difficult circumstances and, you know, all the question of isolation and all of that. I mean, it was not a good time to be trying to play international sport, let alone be an international captain. You know, and I think once, I suspect what happened was, I mean, I'm only guessing here, but it was felt that Harry Brooke was not the right man to do it and therefore who should. And in that case, there only is one other possible candidate to do it.

and that is Joe Root. I'm sure they'd had to have run it past him. You don't just take the job back again without a great deal of thought. And obviously, yes, as you mentioned, the implications possibly on his game. Now, I was interested by Root's captaincy in the Oval Test match against New Zealand

where England had that awful period, if you remember at the start of the day, where they went into a short-pitched bowling. They completely lost the plot, and it was so unlike Joe Root. And I'm just hopeful that that was, more of the McCullum influence and Root just kind of doing more or less what he was told to do rather than Joe Root's natural instinct for the game. I mean he's a wonderful natural cricketer

he's hugely respected and I think actually that Root and Fleming would be rather a good combination because you have got the IPL franchise influence on Fleming's thinking now and so a more positive mindset if you like and Joe Root's always been a positive player anyway but not not what we've witnessed over the last couple of years. In terms of Stephen Fleming's style, clearly he and Brendan McCullum go back a long way. They share business interests. They are two people that, in many ways,

you look at it on paper a cut from the same cloth, former Kiwi captains and one thing and another. But what do you want to see from a coaching point of view that will see this side turning a corner? Because they need to. Yeah, well, in terms of players, it's like comparing Jeff Boycott to Ben Duckett. They're completely different opening batsmen,

utterly different styles. Fleming was a completely traditional left-handed opening batsman, as you'd expect from a test cricket and a very fine one too, incidentally. So, you know, we know how Brendan McCullum played, you know, a very free-spirited manner which worked for him, but doesn't work for everybody.

So, I mean, I think they are very different characters. I mean, they're both very, gregarious, affable companions. There's no doubt about that. But I would expect a much firmer grip on things from Stephen Fleming.

Not least, because that would be part of the brief. You know, the ECB, look at the landscape of English cricket at the moment, the men's game in any way, and they just see something that's been napalmed, basically. I mean, you know, the image of the England men's game is really, really awful. And that has to be addressed, not least for the fans, the spectators, but also the

sponsors, the people that put a lot of money into the game. The image of English cricket has to be drastically improved. And therefore, that will have certainly come with as far as the negotiations and the interviews that will have been conducted with Stephen Fleming. The opportunity to captain alongside Stephen as coach is a huge motivator, says Joe Root. I mean, can an old dog learn new tricks and be a different captain? Do you think, to who we saw from Root in his previous incarnation as England Skipper? Yeah, I suspect. So, I mean, the captain and coach do rather bounce off each other.

But as we know, ultimately, it's the captain in cricket who makes the decisions and who makes the calls. And of course, you have the influence from the coach. But ultimately, you're out there on the field, and it's up to you to do it. But I would think that Joe Root would see in Stephen Fleming somebody with a much more similar mindset as far as playing the game is concerned that he would in Brendan McCullum. And we saw at the start of Bow's Ball, if we call it that, Joe Root really quite confused about how he should play. And that gradually got worn out and he just played in Joe Root's brilliant fashion ultimately.

He just chose that that would be the way. I mean, he certainly won't be put into that sort of position, I don't think, with Stephen Fleming. I think that they will actually think along very similar lines as far as the way that test cricket should be played. And that is that you can take a backward step, and you have to take a backward step sometimes. It's a match over five days. That's the beauty of it. And so, therefore, there is that ebb and the flow that people love so much about test cricket, and which has been missing from the English game for the last couple of years.

It's been flat out, all out. And that is not going to lead to a successful test team, as we've seen. Let's introduce Katie Martin as well to the conversation, former New Zealand wicket-keeper. Katie, lovely to have you with us. You know Stephen Fleming well. Is this a good appointment? And what's your initial thoughts on it all? Afternoon.

Anyone would think there was no jobs going on in New Zealand at the moment at the rate that English people want Kiwis. But, yeah, look, I think it's a great appointment. working with Flem and talking to the guys around him. He's a very thoughtful guy. He's quite measured in the way that he thinks and looks at the game and quite a deep thinker of the game as well. When I say he's a Canterab, a Canterbury player, he had an edge about him when he played.

That competitiveness. I remember his 274 against Sri Lanka, and he was able to understand what was required in that situation as a player, and he's taken that philosophy and theory into his coach. aspect as well, that edge in that competitiveness, but being able to manage that around the development of the game. And I think his relationship with Brennan McCullum, the lifelong friends played a lot of cricket together and good mates off the park as well.

So I think that synergy will help white ball and red ball coaches working closely together. And I think he's probably got a good handle on the global game, obviously coming from the Super Kings franchise all around the world. he understands on the back of a lot of discussions at the start of this summer here at England how you manage players that are playing all three formats and also all franchise leagues as well. So I think that calmness and that thoughtfulness will help with where England need to go in terms of managing test matches a lot better in situations that they've been in the past. Agas, does that sound like music to your ears?

Well, yes, absolutely. I mean, I think everybody who has been really sort of reporting, monitoring and supporting English cricket over the last two years has found it a frustrating business because that there simply hasn't been any sort of openness to any conversation. You know, it is either it is done this way or that's it and that's the end of it. You know, we know the comments that there were around the ashes when actually people who were saying this is not going to be successful were shown to be right and that's not a you know, yaboo sucks to anybody in particular. But it's just that it was so absolutely

cast in stone that this is the way that we're going to play and that's it and if you don't play in this manner you ain't playing and if you don't like the way we play that's all right we're not going to listen and i'll say that stephen fleming will will you know listen to people necessarily but you have to adapt you know test cricket is so multi-dimensional uh that you have to be you have to take on other other parts of playing the game and and there is i keep saying but it's it's utterly relevant there is no shame or weakness in going into a defensive mindset for a while in a test match because it's crucial that you are able to do that and you soak up pressure and you soak it up rather than try and lob it onto the opposition make a mistake get it all wrong and get blown away

which is what we've seen in the last couple of years so yes I mean you can call me an old traditionalist if you like but actually you know test cricket is a traditional game it's played in a way and has been for a long, long time, for a reason. And that's because that generally is the way, if you play it better than anybody else, that's the way you're going to win test matches by being adaptable. And that's what I would like to see. And I think we will see that from Stephen Fleming. Absolutely.

I mean, my dealings with him have been, yes, thoughtful, interesting, a nice sense of humour, as I mentioned, you know, gregarious, good companion, all of those things. but he will have a hard edge to him to have had the success that he has had at the Super Kings and so on he will be used to managing people in quite difficult circumstances

people coming and going and the franchises and all that sort of stuff pressure from above from the owners and so on so he'll have taken all that but now he's got his big challenge and that is managing coaching an international team

which he hasn't done before and you can see why that is something that appeals to him Katie, can you understand why some might be concerned by that? And what about what Aga says, you know, the experience of playing in the IPL, something that you've covered, or coaching in the IPL rather, is something that does come with its own pressures. Yeah, I mean, CSK and Emy Stonia, arguably the two most important people in franchises outside of, obviously, Mumbai,

in India, and to be able to deal with the situation and the egos that come with IPA, Cricket is massive and to have that success as well. I think it's understandable that people have questions. I think that was similar when Brendan come into the role, the fact that he's come from whiteball cricket. He's only really coached sort of in the IPL and he's come in. But I think at the time there was definitely a change that was needed in the approach. I think understanding Fleming and how he goes about it,

it will be more of a refinement of probably what's been happening previously in the approach that's made and he's got an opportunity to stamp his mark. what I understand he's keen for the long-term view of it rather than sort of cheap, successful wins. It's not a get started with a bang and a crash. It's refining and long-term growth. And I think you look at how he was. As a Plurneggers, you know, you've watched a lot of him as well.

He talked a lot about not being the most skillful player, but he was, I always found he quite elegant to watch in the way that he went about it. But he had that gritty determination, and he's had some of the most famous batting innings, multiple double hundreds for New Zealand because he knew how to apply himself and you sit beside him in the commentary box

and when you just watch the way that he's looking at the game he just watches out he monitors across the field he can see the cogs going in his brain thinking about well what would I do as a captain here where are they not quite got that right what's the stage of the game and it's the same thought process he goes through as a coach he talked in this IPO about the fact that he had to

re-learn or learn how the modern game's going and how to change the approach because of the struggles that CSK had had over the last couple of years. So he's a great student of the game. I think the one thing that maybe people might say, well, what about England and playing in England and obviously the ashes that will be in England next year. But, I mean, he had a lot of success in domestic cricket. At county cricket, he won with Knott's the most successful New Zealand test captain. And I think the timing of this really suits some after finishing up in the IPL. So he knows the conditions here in the UK

and he knows what's needed for players to be able to adapt. And I've got no doubt over the last few years, him and Brendan would have had lots of conversations about the approach of the England test team and he's a mentor for Brendan for such a long period of time. Even when he kept in New Zealand, Brendan, he had Stephen Fleming there beside him helping him. So there'll be a nice synergy in terms of

it's not going to be throwing everything out, but what's been needed in the England test team, I think Flemm will be able to bring that rounding on it. And that will be questions of who's his assistance and who he'll bring in in terms of the expertise that he may need outside of what currently is in there at the moment. He was a worker, isn't he? I mean, he was a graceful player.

Yeah. But he was a hard worker. But you're right. He would say that he's not the most talented player. But he knuckled down and he made himself a good player. I think that's what I like about his credentials for this coaching job in that he will, expect that similar sort of attitude from his players.

Well, thank you, Katie. Thank you, Agers as well. If you want to read more about these appointments, you can do so on the BBC Sport website and app. And don't forget that test series between England and Pakistan begins on August 19th, 1025 on Sports Extra. And BBC sounds today at the test will bring you highlights every single day as well on BBC television.

So many ways to follow what is a new era for England's test side. now and then. Don't forget every ball of every game of the 100 is available for you to listen to with eight doubleheaders in there as well for you to watch on BBC 2 and the IPlayer. Plus we've got a highlight show available on the iPlayer and the BBC Sport YouTube channel. Don't forget subscribe to the TMS podcast on BBC Sounds and we'll have plenty more on this remarkable story. I think it's fair to say in the coming days. Thank you so much for listening. We'll speak to you soon. This goes beyond what the KGB did back in the days.

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