Test Match Special - From the Ashes: David Gower

Episode Date: May 25, 2023

The fourth episode of a new series where the BBC’s Chief cricket writer Stephan Shemilt discovers untold stories from the Ashes.David Gower breathes rarefied air as a legend of English Ashes cricket. A four-time winner – twice down under – Gower has played more Tests for England against Australia, 42, than all but Colin Cowdrey. Only the great Jack Hobbs made more runs for England against the Aussies than Gower’s 3,269. As captain in 1985, Gower led England to a 3-1 series win whilst making 732 runs in the process. Little did Gower, or anyone, know that 1985 was to be the last time England won a home Ashes series for 20 years, a desolate run that began when he was put back in charge for what turned out to be a calamitous 1989 contest involving a famous press conference, News at 10, a rebel tour and a large wine bill.

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What's going on? No one wants him. The Footballist Football Podcast. Just bring it on. Listen on BBC Sounds. BBC Sounds, Music, Radio, podcast. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Hello, I'm Stefan Shemult, the BBC's chief cricket writer,

and this is From the Ashes, a test match special podcast. We've been taking a closer look at some of the most famous stories from cricket's oldest rivalry, and this week is all about one of England's best ever battered. who endured one of the worst summers as an Ashes captain. David Gower played 42 tests against Australia, more than every other Englishman other than Colin Cowdery. His 3,269 runs for England against the Aussies is bettered only by the great Jack Hobbs.

Gower led England to Ash's glory in 1985, scoring 732 runs in the process. When he was restored to the captaincy in 1989 to lead against an unfanied Australian side, English optimism was high. What followed was an unravelling involving a trip to the theatre, headlines on news at 10, a rebel tour and a hefty wine bill in what turned out to be one of England's worst home Ashes defeats. As ever, there's much more to read on the BBC Sport website and app

on this episode of From the Ashes, which is all about David Gower. This is the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. David, I suppose my first question would be, how have your thoughts or perceptions or impressions of Ashes cricket change through your different relationships with it, first through being a young fan, a watcher, then a player, a captain, and then as a broadcaster? I think the one thing that I always say to anyone who talks about the Ashes

is that any Englishman or Australian with any ability at cricket would love to play just the one, just be involved in one at his test match, because of the history, because of the reputation of the series. And, I mean, thankfully, actually, when you think back to the 80s, thankfully, even if England and Australia are not at the top of the tree in terms of test cricket globally. And for instance, through the 80s, you could easily say the West Indies were very much higher up that tree than any way. else, at least the Ashes gave you something that felt really important, you know, that felt iconic, that felt like a part of history. So every Ashes series I've been involved in felt that way. Each time you step on a field as an England player in the Ashes, you're thinking

back, I mean, you mentioned Jack Hobbs in the entry, you're thinking back to all the great names who have partaken, you know, played a part in the Ashes. And so for me growing up, for instance, just before I was going to be even considered to be a professional player. You're thinking of the 74-75 series, England under the cross against Lillian Thompson, and that era of the chapels, Rod Marsh, Lily Thompson, various others. You know, some great names of the immediate history, the immediate past history, whom I got to play against some years, you know, a couple of years later almost. That was it.

So as soon as you do that, you are now part of Ash's history, and that counts for something very, very special. 1885, the summer of your life, 732 runs, 300s, one of them are double, England win the series 3-1, and you're lifting the urn. Ah, you've got to smile back to my face, haven't you? Yeah, those are happy times. I mean, those are things, any professional sportsmen will look back at their finest hours. In essence, that ticks all boxes, because you're captain of England, what's the first thing you want to do? You want to win a series. It happens to be an Ashes series. You're aware of that Ashes history. You're aware of that Ashes history. So it would be yet more special to Captain Indian to victory in an Asher series. As a batsman, what do you want to do? You want to make runs. And if you'll settle, if I look back at a career where my career was, what, just about 44, you know, you kind of settle for that because you know that's your level. But you always want more.

So to come out of that series with that many runs as captain, to come out with the personal pride that comes with that and with the team pride that comes with winning, you know, it literally does not get any better. than that. And here's actually a little side story for you. People talk about motivation for playing international cricket. And of course you've got your personal pride. You've got the team pride, national pride, all sorts of things. You can talk about in those days Queen and Country, nowadays the King and Country. There was a side bet, if you want to put it that way. And a little incentive, because I was sponsored by Wiggins Steep, that's some of these stationary people. And their ND happened to be, the tagline was the leader in the field. So that, you know, fitted in.

But their ND happened to be a fan of an admirer of, you know, fine wines and spirits and stuff. So he said, as a port lover, he said, look, here, for every hundred you get in this series, I will give you a bottle of pre-war port. And so, as luck would have it, you got three to threesbury presented at the end of the summer. So come September, we're in a restaurant coincidentally called ports in London.

And this guy, Athelangus, had found, he'd sourced a man who could source the relevant ports. And it wasn't just any old war we were talking about. He provided and presented three bottles of pre-First World War ports, so 1908, 1912, which are still lying in state in the cellar somewhere under my control. And so you can talk about all those things, as I say, personal pride and port as all the incentives you need to make 300s in an acid series. Will they ever be opened?

Actually, it reminded me, I really must get them checked, maybe topped up, maybe you can get the corks redone and maybe get them valued and if times get hard I'll let you know when they're on eBay 18 months later 86 87 you were back in the ranks

for what turned out to be England's last win down under for a very long time all the way to 2005 was the next time that England would get their hands on the earn if I'd told you then that it would be that amount of time before England won the ashes again, what do you think you would have said?

I'd have been disbelieving. I mean, admittedly, through my career, so going from, what, 78 through to early 90s, the ashes went back and forth, good series, bad series. Personally, good series, bad. Most of my series actually were pretty good against them, so I'm very happy and proud about that. But the asses themselves, you go back and forth. And that seemed normal.

And that's the way these things normally work between England and Australia. And you have those natural variations, you know, great players come through, games get one, games get lost, you know, the key moments go one way or the other. But you normally assume that you're in the same sort of ballpark. But then for that long, long period to follow after 86, 7, where we never got a sniff, or it seems as though we were never actually in the contest. I mean, I would have been completely disbelieving if you'd said that was going to happen because it just doesn't happen. It's extraordinary to have such a one-sided nature

in this sort of bilateral contest over such a period of time. So, yes, I mean, little did I know that the disaster that was 1989 would lead to so many years in a very, very arid wilderness. And 1989 is really what we're here to talk about. And when I phoned you up to ask you, if you'd come and speak to me about 1989,

you said to me, of all the Ashes series that you took part in, I've chosen to focus on the worst one. By some distance, too. It is, I mean, I suppose, I mean, with time and distance, the pain isn't quite so bad. And when I took on the captioning 189, I mean, first of all, you know, I was phoned up by Ted Dexter, who was then chairman-selecter, said, would you like to be in the captioning? I said, yeah, I loved you.

And the simple story is that even though I'd had a couple years off, you know, out of the job, I was optimistic that, you know, we could repeat 85, Alan Baud was captain again, Australia might have been stronger, yes, but I thought we had all the right people, all the right things in place to have a good series. Whereas 85 was a summer where things by and large went very smoothly. And, you know, the climax was perfect. 89, it all started badly and it never got any better. It was nothing, of a nightmare. You talked about being an optimist when you took the job. And even if this wasn't your feeling, but the Australians weren't rated, were they at all, albeit they were being led by an Alan Border who was trying to give them a new hard-nosed attitude. I took nothing for granted

as captain and nor did Mickey as England team director. You know, you don't. You can't afford to. And whatever you do to say, well, actually our challenges are good because of ABC, D, and F and the rest of it. Events on the field are always the key things. So it kind of unraveled quickly. And then along the line, you can show in all sorts of things that didn't help the cause. And some of those were my fault, which I would take full responsibility for. Others were things you can do nothing about, injuries and form and stuff. Those are things that are out of your control. One of the things I'll get to straight away is that I'm afraid, and I look back on this for some sort of shame, actually.

We were very quick to change things. And one very good example is Chris Broad, who started the series, who in 867 had made a whole stack of runs in the ashes in Australia. It'd been outstanding. And it had two games at the start of this 89 series without producing much, and we dropped him.

Now, I have to say, I regret that, because Chris had proved himself in Australia And any of us, I mean, me with a hundred odd test matches that I can look back on, and yes, I was dropped a few times here and there for all sorts of different reasons. But if you have a run of bad form, you expect it. But, you know, two games is not necessarily enough. And we did that. We chopped and changed too often, I think, and it was a record number of players in the six-match series, 29 from the top of my head. And, you know, so I say some of those were enforced by injury, certainly by the end of that tour.

some of those enforced by the rebel tour that was announced after four test matches which of course I had no idea about as England captioned. There's one person in the world doesn't know about rebel tours being mooted. That is the incumbent captain of the team and I find that's hard to believe and hard to take

that that is a fact of life. So for all these very very different reasons that team would dissolve so the revolving doors that helped it dissolve into nothing were whirring around ferociously You talked about injuries, and there was one to quite a key man in Ian Botham, who only played three of the six tests.

Ian loves playing Ashes cricket. Loved it, absolutely loved it. Loved playing in Australia. He and Australians get on fabulous because they're made of the same raw material. But his competitive levels were never stronger than when playing in an Ashes series. It's as simple as that. And even if you go off, you sort of look at 86-7, you know, winning in Australia for, in Mike Gatting's team, even then, you know, the reputation of Beefy, the, you know, Guy the guerrilla, beefy, Ian Botham was such that at Melbourne, he picked up wickets when he was only two-thirds fit. And they looked at him, spotted slow bounces, top-edged, and the whole thing. You know, he was, he was a potent force because of the reputation that was Ian Botham. Now, 89 of the couple of years, further on. You know, we've been through various things since 85. He'd been outstanding in

85. We've been through things like losing in the West Indies where, you know, the magic deserted him, you know, especially with the ball on that tour. You know, it's a different animal. But one of the great things about having a both of them, or Stokes, for instance, in the current era, is that just their mere presence in an 11 has, it means you've got someone there who, if nothing else, will say, look, leave it to me. I'll do all this. I'll get so-and-so-out. Team meetings with both were fun in one sense because you just took you, you always take full responsibility for getting all 10 out single-handedly. And he promised you at least 150 with a bat in one innings.

Yeah, he was just, that was the inner beast. That was the inner man who, I mean, that's what made him such a great player apart from anything else, is this immense self-belief and immense competitiveness. So if you're missing that element, you know, you're missing a vital element. I suppose it's important to say as well that even though, Australia weren't necessarily that highly rated, particularly in the media, and even back in Australia, it was still a squad that contained players that not only performed very well in 1989, but went on to a very distinguished careers. Steve Ward, David Boone, Ian Healy, Mark Taylor, Merv Hughes. They were all in that squad and would have a holdover England for a number of years to come. Yeah, Terry Alderman. I mean, you look at the way that sign. played. I mean, Headingley is the first test. We shouldn't have lost that. I mean,

the irony, which I have to giggle out, I mean, Headingley, the previous decades, we'd gone up to Headingley for each and every test match in that decade, always been told, and it's not a slur at all, but the groundsman always said, well, I've got to think I've got a good pitch this year, and it always did something. And I have to say, in his defence, he worked his absolute socks off to try and develop that pitch, try and do something. something about this reputation that it's going to be a low-scoring game. And whatever you say about the weather and cloud cover at Leeds. So when I stuck Australia in, it was a little bit clouded that morning, first day at

Heddingly. There's no way they should have got thousands. But they did. And it was quite tomorrow. It was rather disappointing. Let's put it that way. Still to be fielding on Saturday morning. And watching Steve Wall plunder runs, Mark Taylor, got runs.

But having said all that and having gone through all that. and having gone through all that, Alderman bowled well, yes, and the pitch did get lower, yes. And so someone like Terry Alderman bowling close to the stumps, very straight, skiddy, the number of LBWs tell a bit of the story. You know, that's how they won that game.

But on a good day, you know, we should have drawn that. We should have got away with it, but that way. We should have been able to see that final day out, lick our wounds a little bit, say we were lucky, maybe, but at least we got the draw.

And you go to the next game, nill all, not 1-0 down. And, you know, these things do make a difference. So, yes, sticking them in was not a good idea, in retrospect, in hindsight. But, you know, I was the unlucky caption who hit upon the first flat pitch heavily for a good decade. And it was, you know, it was downhill from there on. 601 for 7 the Australians made after being put in.

Terry Alderman, as you mentioned, took 10 terrorising England in England again. Australia won by 210 runs. How important was that defeat? And had you felt before that first test that actually it was a particularly important first test in a series that it would possibly set the tone? I mean, I think in all honesty, you think every first test of every series is important.

In a six-match series, it's never terminal. But if it sets the tone, then that six-match series feels, like a 20-match series. It feels interminable. But the thing about losing a first game, if it happens, is that you can say to yourself, we now have plenty of time. You've got five test matches left to try and make amends, try and get it right. So it's never the end of the world to lose the first test match. Okay, the margin of defeat was heavy and the runs they put on the board in the way it was done were probably as important as anything, because if

If you're Australia and underrated, the biggest thing you can do, the best thing you can do is put runs on the board, which always make the individuals concerned feel good about themselves. And that sets them up for the rest of the series, but also makes a team confident the rest of the series because runs on the board are kind of vital. Obviously, taking wickets is the other thing. And if Alderman picks up 10 out of 20 in a match, well, again, he now knows that things are going his way. So, yeah, all the psychological pluses were with Australia at the end of that game.

Although it's never easy coming back, whatever the length of the series, because of those psychological pluses, well, at least you, you know, you can make changes to your own psychology. You can adapt, you can fight. You can, you know, you can tinker, you can just go and start the next game and try and live it.

And let's face it, you know, four years previously, we'd won at Leeds, we lost at Lord. So, Ellen Border in 85 was won all after two, and he was back in the series. So we went to that second match of 89, thinking, okay, we can get back in the series. So you weren't necessarily feeling any extra pressure going into that second test at Lords because of the way that you'd been beaten in the first test. I was annoyed to lose that first test match. It wasn't what I wanted

at the start of the series, not by any stress of the imagination. With the same thing happening, of course, you know, it's still in the era of rest days. So at Leeds, I'd have been, answering questions on the Saturday night saying, you know, questions being, can you save the game? Of course you're going to say, yes, we're a long way behind on that Saturday night, so there's still, you know, two days to go. And in fact, as I'll say it again, we could easily have saved that game at Leeds by Lords. And we get the same occurrence situation on the Saturday night. I'm being asked the same questions again. And as is my way, you know, I'm not one, you know, if there is a way of trying to, you know, deflect a question like that with

Call it humour, call it what you want. You know, just a slightly light-hearted reflection on it. I just, I mean, I know, actually have to say on the Saturday night. Yes, on Saturday night, so we're up against it again. But I'm not out. I'm just coming, battling away at the crease when we close play on Saturday night. And 45 minutes later, I'm in a press conference. And the same questions are being asked.

Can you save the game? And so I'm saying things like, well, can I refer, you know, the Honourable Gentleman, back to my answers at Leeds. which is, yes, we can save the game. And they're going, well, yeah, but you lost at Leeds. And I go, well, yeah, but, okay, what can I say? Of course, we're going to try and save this game. Of course, you know, there are things still, yeah, there's still two days to go.

I will do my utmost to do what I can. And the team likewise, and of course, it ended famously that I lost my temper, best way of putting it, had enough of it. I said, right, I've had enough, I'm off, got into a cab, which just happened to be waiting, luckily outside the Grace Gate at Lords. and went off to watch anything goes as the guest of Sir Tim Rice. And if anything went, I went. So, you know, that theatre night, again, became part of the poor history of that series.

And, I mean, it was, you know, the pressure was building very quickly because, all right, I left that press conference. I left Mickey Stewart, bless him, you know, the Indian team manager. Oh, he's got to answer the questions now. And, you know, actually, it was enough to see a recording of his face as I left that room. you know, jaw-dropping, and then Ted, so overnight, unfortunately, I enjoyed the night in theatre very much. Right. So overnight, Ted is phoning and saying, we need to do a bit of repair work here. We need to sort of mend some bridges. So my rest day was spent doing the odd

TV interview, the odd press interview, to sort of make amends for being so culpably rude as to leave a press conference, you know, with nothing more to say to them. And it was, yeah, it was, it was unfortunate. I mean, I look back on it with a bit of rye amusement now. Again, just to sort of think of the faces in that room. Because there aren't many England captains of, I don't know what the right way of putting it is, but decided that enough is enough, that they can make up their own headlines. And I will not be helping them with them anymore. I'm off. To set the scene for what happened on that Saturday night, England had been bowled out for 286. Australia replied with 528, and as you quite rightly say, you personally were batting again by the Saturday evening.

Can you just clarify for me? Was it a matter of course at that point because Saturday was going into the Sunday rest day that the captain would speak to the media, or were you just unfortunate to be doing it on consecutive test match Saturdays? The formula was that on the Saturday night, the captain would speak. You were wheeled out at the end of play. as soon as possible and presented with the baying pack of press hounds. The human side to that is this. I am out there on that Saturday evening doing my best not to get out and I get through it. What you really want to do at that stage is sit quietly with your mates and if need be talked

through the situation, but just on here, somehow just not be pushed in, basically the opposite to being pushed out in front of the press. There was a lot of emotion within. So if ever I was going to snap, it was going to be then. When you were sitting there watching anything goes, did you know, or could you have guessed at the storm it had created? And did you care? You always care. I mean, yes, you do care because, I mean, one of the great things I managed to keep for most of my career was a relatively solid reputation.

I mean, we can question that, you can look into that. But, I mean, you know, I was always always seen as, I mean, I was accused of being laid back, seen as easygoing, friendly. You know, I didn't have any arguments with teammates. So these sort of pressurized situations were just rather different. And, yeah, I mean, I'd look back and say that if, you know, one of the things I promised myself at the start of that series was to keep control of these times, you know, knowing the press conference would happen, knowing that potentially at some stage they might be difficult. and just to use the previous experience to just to do it properly and not to get upset or lose control. So to lose control like that, annoy me actually, just looking in the mirror, apart from anything else. You can be understanding of what they're doing as a press call.

You can be critical of what they're doing as a press call. And there's one golden rule, which is that they'll always be much nice at you if you're doing well. So if the team is doing well and you're doing well, they're happy by definition. the English press call following an England team doing well is going to be a happy team and the questions get easier and the answers get easier so it's pretty much all down to human nature and circumstances and so yes overnight following morning Ted Dexter is on the phone

saying we need to build some bridges we did in a rather nice place at I was at the Hurling was running a one of their lovely summer days bit of tennis in the background probably a bit of proké invitation have a glass of wine and something to eat but at the same time I was also face for the TV camera there saying what about last night what about the game and of course

you're back into the mode which is rather more professional if you can put it that way and saying the right things trying to say just trying to repair some of that damage so I mean don't you get through it wasn't too bad a day in the end and come back Monday you're coming back on

Monday at least I stayed long enough to get 100 so that may be feel better too It was 100 where you actually got quite a worn reception. The test match was still lost. You went on to Birmingham, I think, for the third test, where Ian Botham returned and it rained, so the match was drawn.

By the time the fourth test came around, there was a story in the news of the world, claiming that you were going to resign if England lost and therefore the ashes were gone. The Saturday night at Manchester, by then, As I say, all these subplots were becoming major plots. And if we remember, you know, Mike Gatting had been out for various reasons, out in the wilderness, and they'd approached Mike to catch him a rebel tour to South Africa.

And because there's injury that kept going to left him out in the first place, but because we hadn't really been in touch with him, he was feeling, but I sympathised. He was feeling sort of kind of left out, you know. You know, we could have phoned and not say, how are you? you know, but in the, with everything else going along and not going well, that kind of got left out. So Michael's approach to captain this rebel towards Africa, and I say sadly, sadly said yes. Various others, of course, have been approached as well.

And one of the things that does hurt me, actually still, I mean, most things I just let go and forget about and move on and print some more roses. One of the things that does irk me from that time was that Dexter and Stuart, had had wind of this rebel tour being put together. What I knew from the previous rebel tour where people had been approached, including me in India, on the 81-82 tour, is that secrecy is paramount.

And the one person, it was Keith Fletcher and India in 81-2 who didn't know anything about it. And that's a sort of form of politeness, but at the same time, and it keeps that man out of a loop, which could put him in a very, very awkward position. So anyway, 89, I am the man who knows nothing about it. Obviously, the players that have been approached were all sworn to secrecy. Dexter and Stuart obviously had an inkling about it.

And this was all coming to a head because it was about to be announced at some stage during that test match. So come the Saturday night, here we have another potential press conference. And it gets to a stage where Mickey and Ted Mickey says to me, maybe you know, maybe better not do the press conference tonight. So... Did you know by the Saturday night that just actually set the... scene. During this test match, it was revealed that 16 players had signed up for a rebel tour of South Africa that winter. When did you know? Was it by the Saturday night? Was it

the Sunday morning? Ah, good question. To be honest, I'm not quite sure, but I assume so. I think I did by then. I think it's one of the reasons they thought that may be best to lead me out of this because there could be things that were out of my control, that were nothing to do me or and of course the game itself and not going well again. So yes I sat it out where did I go to that? I mean I probably had a normal night

somewhere but one of those little things that is completely bonkers during that we've been in the field that day now as was my when the spinners are on I'm in close at silly point I'm two yards in the bat at silly point

I was pretty good at that at least there was that still and I remember What happened was this? I was at silly point, and one came off an inside edge onto a pad dropped, still a yard in front of me. So no chance, no real chance. But there was a shout from behind me, near the station, the Stretford Station. And I didn't look round. I didn't do anything particularly strong or react. But I heard this shout clearly, as sometimes you do. A crowd of 18, 20,000. One voice echoes across the ground. And behind my back, I flicked a V sign.

Sorry. But this little sign here, and I didn't even look around. I didn't approach, it wasn't as I ran ATRs to confront the culprit and duff. It'll be sign and just got on with life. You know, right, who's bowling next? You know, just got on with the day. As luck would have it, and Mark always reminds me about this, we're fine with this. Mark Austin, who was the correspondent for ITN in those days, he and his camera were right behind me.

And the camera had this shock taken. And Mark decided that in the news at 10 that night, you know, a little clip showing the pressure the Indian captain is under would be quite funny in that news at 10 report. Now, I was blissfully unaware of this until Ted, Dexter has to phone me that night saying, we've got a problem. So what now? He said, well, you've been filmed flicking a V side of the crowd.

I said, for heaven's sake. hang on. I said, you know, Ted, you know, I didn't confirm. I mean, that is ridiculous. I was, you know, whatever I was doing to cope with the situation at that moment, this tip the balancing again. And he said, well, I think we need to talk about it to me. We need to speak to the press tomorrow. I said, no, we do not. I have nothing to apologize for with everything else that is going on. You think I'm going to pitch up and say, oh, really sorry. So I said, Ted, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. but you can do what you want. You can do exactly what you want with this. If you want to apologize on my behalf or whatever action you want to take is down to you, I am going out. And I went, as far as I could,

a great friend of mine, Thurke of Chris Kilby from my school days in Canterbury, long-time resident in Singapore and Australia, actually. There's still a huge cricket fan. Chris was up and watching the game. So I went out with him. He went into the wilds of Cheshire. We left no trailer break rums.

we probably didn't have mobile phones God knows what they were switched off we had them and even when I came back into Manchester I went in I didn't go straight back to the hotel I went by a friend of mine in Hale and I had a glass with him and I got back to the hotel as late as I physically could in the hope that no one would disturb me

and we just get on with the game following morning so I just completely avoided that particular one but it made me very angry that something as insignificant as that firstly made it on the news at 10th and secondly became yet another cudgel with which to beat me over the head with

so you can tell that things are not going well now the resignation thing fellow called David Norrie who was a very good correspondent for news the world and I've known David for years and got on very well with David but David is also a very good journalist So they could sense that by the end of this test match, we were going to lose the ashes or not be able to regain the ashes. So the ashes were done, basically.

And he actually rang me on that Saturday night and said, will you be considering your position? We had a semantic argument as to whether or not, if this all went finally wrong, I would be considering my position or reconsidering my position. In my book, I might have to reconsider it because as I considered it at the end of the that question, I was still in Captain and still had ambitions to remain so. And I wasn't thinking of resigning, even despite everything that was going on at the time. So, you know, as far as I was concerned, that's as far as I've got in terms of considering it. If things continue to get worse, maybe I'd reconsider it. And so I gave him basically the answer that paraphrases A.C. Smith in the Caribbean in 1981, which where his famous answer to a question about the future

of that tours was along the lines of if I had to give an answer, my only comment would be no comment, but don't quote me on that. That's the mood I felt in on that particular night. I mean, you know, in all truth, you know, you don't come to those decisions ahead of an event. Even if we, I mean, we were obviously having a bit of trouble with that game. But there is something about being in the captain as well, even when it's going horribly wrong, you still, for some weird reason, want to be England captain. And the other thing, okay, here's another one for you. So they're announcing, they're announcing the rebel team. They're announcing basically that half that team playing at Old Traffat is not going to be available because that's the way it works

for the next test match or the rest of that Ashley's series. So win or lose or draw, and we won't win. Whatever happens, they are not going to be playing for England in that series again. and in most cases very unlikely they'll ever play bringing it again. So that's a certain amount of emotion in amongst those people who are sadly involved in that rebel tour. But then to add to the ignominy

is another one for you and make what he will of this story. Before every test match in those days, pre-test training was the day before, Wednesday afternoon, three o'clock cup of tea, a bit of running around, few catches hit a ball. Team dinner the night before the game.

team dinner at Old Trafford. Ted Dexter's host, Chairman Selectors, Mickey Stewart, team director. We're at Motrim Hall Hotel, very nice hotel in the Wales of Cheshire to keep out of trouble, of course. Little do they realise there are all sorts of elements

of potential trouble within just a couple of miles at Motrim Hall. And halfway through dinner, we run out of the wine that Mickey Stewart had chosen, which is within the ACB's budget, and suitable for the team dinner.

The Somalia company in, says, sir, can we, you know, to touch, can we, do you like some more wine? He says, yes, have a way over the caption. So I looked at this wine list, and it was an outstanding wine list. And I sort of looked at the Cheval Blanc, I forget which year, an outstanding Claire, said, well, that'd be very nice. I said, Chairman, will it be right if we, would you mind here? So I kind of asked him, but a little bit disingenuous.

I didn't say, it'll be 180 quid a bottle. So he said, I got the nod of approval, so he ordered another couple of bottles of Chevroblanc, And we said, well, if nothing else, at least the wine has been excellent. The sad thing is this, at the end of the game, so a final morning of the game, you know, it's all over part of shouting. But on the morning of the, well, the morning we're leaving the hotel, Mickey as team manager, has to look at the bill and sign the bill up. And he looked at this bill and he went, oh, that looks a bit expensive.

And he looked at the details of the pre-test dinner. And he spotted two bottles of Chival Blanc at 180-quit of a pot. And he thought, well, that's not in my budget. So apart from anything else, or on top of everything else, he comes to me that morning and says, Captain, do you think you could arrange a bit of a whip round? Because the wine bill was a bit too much. I will not repeat what I said to Mickey,

because that doesn't bear an august podcast of this nature. Language like that is unrepeatable. We can imagine that, let's put it this way, Had I been in his position, I'd have thought, hmm, shall I have a word of the caption? He looks all right. He can't be under much pressure. He just lost half his team is going to be banned.

Yes, I'll ask him if he can have a whip round for, you know, 400 quid just to sort out my wine bill. I mean, it was ridiculous. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. There's more from David Gawassoon, including his legendary flight on the, tag him off in 1991. That's after this.

Why is it called a smart speaker? Because it's smart. You ask it to do something and it'll be done. Just say, smart speaker, ask BBC Sounds to play your favourite music mix. Oh, that's nice. Or you can say, ask BBC Sounds to play that brand new podcast. Oh. And you can even ask BBC Sounds to pause, rewind and restart live radio on your smart

speaker. If only everything in life is that simple. For music, radio and podcasts, and most smart speakers just say, Smart Speaker, ask BBC sounds. This is the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. You talk about it now with great humour, but in that week, you've had the news of the world story about you reconsidering or considering your position, the news at 10 report, the revelation of the rebel tour,

and confirmation that the ashes have been lost. Can you put into words how you were feeling leaving Manchester? No. I mean, by the time, okay, by the time the dust had settled on that game, you do what you always do, which is basically pack up your cricket bag, your overnight kid is already in the back of the car. You go back to wherever you've got to be, and I, from memory, I have no idea whether I had

play a game. I think actually, I've got a feeling, actually, ironically, that my next game was for Leicestershire against Australia. Again, why would you wish that upon yourself? Yeah. And so I would have gone home. I might have had a day off. I can remember. But I mean, the next thing is, I mean, I'm playing for Leicester against Australia because Mike Turner, our manager, a very good manager of a club that needed strong, strong management. But, you know, for him, you know, selling a tourist game It was one of the majoring year. We weren't a big club. A tourist game was important for the club.

So, you know, the club captain, me, England batsman, me, had to play in that game. The last thing I wanted to do under those circumstances was play that game. But I remember I invited Borda and Boone back home. I was living in something called the Coach House, nice little period property in a part of Lester called Odeby. And I thought the least I could do. I mean, whatever my disappointment was paid credit. where it was due. So I invited A.B. and Booney back, I opened a bottle of Bollinger to congratulate them on their all-too-easy-as-win. I used, you'll be familiar, of course, with the term

sabrage, so using a cavalry saver to not the top off a bottle of champagne. And if you do it properly, the court flyers, the rim-flies, and all this well, and you have this gurgling of champagne, you just put into a glass and drinking. I didn't possess a cavalry saver at the time. I had an axe, and I used the axe to perform the same technique, which I've done countless times, and the top of the bottle flew off accordingly, went 10 metres, just a tiny little shark, went side of a tiniest little shard,

hit AB just behind the right eye, and drew the tiniest speck of blood. Wouldn't have hurt at all, and I said, sorry about that, congratulations about the ashes. And we had that conversation where AB, who had been, the new version, AB2, Captain Grumpy, hadn't spoken to anyone.

The only words he said to me in four test matches, you know, heads or tails and either will bat bowl or, you know, what are you going to do? And he hadn't spent his own team much in that same couple of months either. And he kind of apologised. I said, look, you know, I wanted to really win the ashes. I knew I had to be different to 85. So, you know, I had to be strong. And I actually have huge admiration for that.

I mean, I couldn't do it, I don't think. It's beyond my nature to do exactly what AB did that summer. But, you know, it worked for him. It worked for his team. he was able to relax at that moment and we drank a bottle or two probably and I'd probably threw some meat on a barbecue just to make him feel at home

and then had to play a bloody game for Leicestershire against Australia but at that stage I don't know I mean I have a certain certain resilience you need it in this game where yes I could take it personally that my efforts as captioned had obviously failed yes I could take it personally that my ambitions

to win another Ashes series had gone up in smoke. As an individual, though, if you allow yourself to crumble, just because you've lost the ashes, I say that with tongue in cheek slightly, then you're not doing yourself any favours. Now, what had happened after Old Trafford as well, it's because, of course, we've lost half the team. Mickey and Ted, had their little thing. And although there was the question being asked very publicly and very understandably, you know, should I carry on captioning England? because, you know, obviously hadn't gone well over the couple of months preceding this. They came to me and said, we'd like you to carry on.

And as much as anything else, but they didn't have to say it, you know, the phrase, because there's no one else, sprang to mind. And even then, I mean, I can tell you that there is a feeling that you think, well, well, I could have resigned. But then what? You know, there's a feeling, well, actually, you're still playing for him. There's still, you're not going to win the series. not to have the ashes, but you know, maybe you can just do something to hold your head

a little higher. You know, maybe it can get better. Maybe the pressure of the ashes being off. Maybe you can just regain a, you know, a little scintilla of personal pride and things might improve. So you're, you know, in my head, I'm saying, well, okay, fine, let's give it a crap. Let's see what happens. And you did. And ultimately, the series was lost 4-0. As you were alluded to before, there was 29 players used by England across that summer. You were eventually sacked and didn't go on the tour of the West Indies that winter. But he did return to play for England the following summer. And then in 1990, 1991, you went on what turned out to be your final Ashes series,

and it produced one of the most famous moments of your career when you took the flight in the Tiger Moth. Yes. The context around this is that it was during a tour game, three tests into the series, England were two nil down, but you were playing well. You'd made a 60 and a couple of hundreds, but this was a new regime, maybe even inspired by Alan Border, that was quite strict. But in this tour game, you were trying to have a little bit of fun and add some enjoyment into what was turning into a pretty tough tour. I would look upon it as an opportunity not to be missed and you're right the context is relevant

and those statistics are relevant so yeah it was too so Graham Grushy's tour and you're right Graham who would have known Alan Borda very well over the years and who Graham and Mickey had decided to take the England team into a different realm again

obviously my whatever my style of captaincy was whatever you want to describe it as. And I always used to mean, in essence, my guiding principle as captain was to say to players, please take responsibility for yourself. So team meetings, for instance, would be, I would encourage players to come to me with their ideas. If a bowler is going to get Alan Border out, I want to know how he plans to do it. I'm not going to just tell him how to do it. So I wanted that interaction. So I always had this principle, guiding principle, that players were free to speak at any time on and off the field.

They're encouraged to do so. They're encouraged to arrange themselves, you know, before games. You know, a lot of what they did was in their own control. You know, responsibility was key. And I just had to, you know, hold the reins and direct them as best as I could with my instincts as captain. So that was my feeling. Graham's regime with Mickey was much more controlled. There was less interaction like that.

And but what the, I mean, their abiding, I suppose, aim was to bring discipline. back into an England team, and when you've lost the series, when you've lost the previous Ashes series badly, and you're going down to Australia where the odds are always against you, well, how are you going to do that? So I suppose there was probably an element of the Alan Border book, a leaf from the Allen Border book taken down to Australia by Graham and Mickey, and a lot of it was down to the ethics of hard work, practice, training, running, and all that sort of thing. So team discipline was all. Now, as you say, in the previous three test measures, of that tour before we got to Queensland to play the state game,

and not at the, not at the Gabba, but at Carrara on the Gold Coast. Well, yeah, I got the runs. I was averaging 50. I was very happy with my form. And we'd had a couple of discussions about the way the thing was going, the way the team was being run. My hundred at Sydney was born of desire to prove a point as much as anything else, apart from making runs in the test match against Australia. because we'd had a fairly, I would call it insipid team talk, having fielded for a day, two days in a bit, from our captain. And I thought, well, that was ridiculous.

Anyway, I sort of said something and gone off in a huff. And so I sort of took it as incumbent, and I get some runs. So when I got the 100 at Sydney, it was a joyful moment for all sorts of very good reasons. And by the time we got to Queensland, you know, playing the game, yes, we're playing on a good pitch. we're actually having a pretty good time but it's probably our first game on tour that we're ahead of the game and as you well as you'll remember

as people remember there was an airstrip right next door to the ground so we'd watched for two and a half days we'd watch these tiger moths vintage circa 1940 taking off doing half hour scenic tours of the Gold Coast they'd basically wander off down to the beaches

do a low level run come back and take another passenger up and I'd got out before lunch on day three. Overall, your life was good, though, personally. Okay, you want to, we still had a chance of squaring the series. The two games to go, only two no doubt.

So, any, the mischievousness crept in. So I was talking to Lammy, I said, well, AJ, I might just take one of those planes up, you know, looks like fun. John Morris, who got 100 that day, overheard the conversation and said, can I come too? Probably the worst sentence of his life.

But, and the story goes, that we had to borrow some money from managed or at least acquire some money. We used to get paid, you know, whatever it was, $80 a week for food. You know, the meal allowance was paid in cash each week, and it was up to you how you spent it, hopefully on food, of course. So I had a word of repeat. Lush manager, we got the money, $75 we needed for the half-hour flight each, and we wandered round to the ground.

We sort of took the cautions, phoned back to make sure we had collapsed. We had two of Indians' finest, as I say, batting with orders to bat through the afternoon. So Alan Lam and Robin Smith, and we made sure they were still in, put the giggles for these giggles, sorry, the Biggles kit on, giggles as well, put the flying cap and goggles on, didn't have a scarf. And we had a worry with Bruce, because my pilot's called Bruce because everyone, as you know, by law, is called Bruce in Australia. And Bruce agreed to do the low-level run down the line of the pitch. So we had two low-level runs straight down the line of the pitch, 150 feet or so. I had 15 minutes left, bank left, did the beaches, came back, and all the rest of it. And it was only long lenses, long lenses from the sort of the camera guys who realized that it might have been me and a conversation at the end of the day where management were asked about us in the planes.

Now, for various reasons, I wasn't present at that stage. I was gone off into the hills, went out for supper, came back late, picked up various bits of paper behind my door, which boiled down to go and see the manager at 8.30 in the morning, 8.30 in the morning, you knock on the door. We had a meeting then where things like professionalism, dedication, motivation were discussed. I did, I started by just saying, look, I'm really sorry. I felt upset anyone. I apologize. To me, the harm is fun. But then they said, well, okay, we need to talk about all these things. So we had an hour long discussion during which I said, well, hang on, I've got topscoring Brisbane twice, 100 in Melbourne, 100 in Sydney.

Why don't you ask the other 15 about their motivation? again they take this thing called a dim view anyway the upshot is and they were very upset far too upset for their own good to be honest so tell exes and pigeons fly between Australia and lords for the next two or three days at one stage it's rumoured they wanted to send us home on a very big plane which would have been a complete overreaction

and in the end they realised that the tour contracts stated that the maximum penalty was a thousand £1,000 fine, which I paid on the spot when I next saw Peter Lush in Adelaide. And my ambition then was just to carry on as before. I've said all my things, said my piece. Love playing for England, wants to do well, happy to be part of this team. If I carried on making runs, we could have been good. Short story is this.

Two days later, day two of the Adelaide test match, I'm in at number five. Third of a week, it goes down. I walk out to join my captain, Graham Gooch, who is probably 100 not out or so. and as I walk out to bat they play those magnificent men in their flying machines on the PA system the sad thing

because I could chuckle at that Graham is not particularly amused I had a little chuckle but the sad thing and the thing that does hurt for me is that the next hour I was completely out of form out of kilter

for some reason the harder you try sometimes the worst it is and for the next hour I play the worst cricket in my test career and finished by the last ball before lunch, looping the most innocuous shot, gently into the air, into the hands of Murph Hughes,

took the easiest cash of all time in test cricket, and had to walk off to lunch with Graham, eyes boring into my back behind me. And for that game and for the last test match in Perth, you know, all that good form of the previous three games had completely deserted. So we had two big problems. One is I wasn't in fourth, that's my big problem.

and for Graham, they had this perceived issue of attitude and the contribution of a senior player into this team. So by the time we finished that tour, and we had one day games to play New Zealand at the end of it, and some serious discussions, by the time we finished that tour, we were not getting along particularly well. But again, that is history. As I said at the start,

only Colin Cowdery played more tests for England against Australia. How do you reflect on it all? particularly when we've just laid it out as we have step by step. Overall reflection on my experience of Ashes cricket alone is that it was great. Great to be part of it, as I say, I said it right at the start. Even one test match, you're part of Ashes history. So having played through whatever it was, eight series or so,

with the ups and downs, proudest moment of my career, holding the ashes aloft at the Oval in 1985. Some of the hundreds were amongst my favourite, innings of all time. The people that you meet, it was an era where certainly at the start, not necessarily by the time we'd finished that time, you automatically went from dressing and to dressing him at the end of each day.

And you talked to Alan Border, to Ian Chappell, to Greg Chappell, to Dennis Lilly, to Jeff Thompson, to Rod Marsh, to Jeff Lawson, to Merv Hughes, and everyone else. And they became friends. of a sort. There was a camaraderie between the two teams. There was absolutely zero quarter given on the field and there were some really, really fantastic games of cricket that I was part of. And you remember the victories and you cope with the losses. So overall, over that period of whatever it was, 15 years or so, it was a collection of an extraordinary events that shaped to life, that helped shape to my life, shaped many other lives.

and something which is indelible both in the you know both in wisdom all those years in wisdom everything is recorded faithfully but in my heart as well in my heart and in my mind you know some of the best things that have happened have happened in the course of playing cricket against Australia and what I really treasure about that is not necessarily the results or the numbers in wisdom but the fact that for instance you know this current summer, I will probably end up at a stage, I'm due to end up on a stage with Jeff Thompson somewhere, and it'll be fun. At some stage, I might run into Alan Border, and it'll be a pleasure. At some stage, you know, Murph Hughes has just become, you know, the sort of biggest,

cuddliest bear you'll ever meet. And, you know, every time I see Merv, the biggest thing I fear is the hug that I will get when I see him when we meet. And these are, you know, great characters of that era and of the game. They're great people. They were great players. And it's just nice to know that they're friends. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. That was former England captain David Gower, and you can read more on his Ashes story

on the BBC Sport website and app. Don't forget, you can hear full coverage of the men's and women's ashes this summer on Test Match Special. It all gets underway on the 16th of June. be another episode of From the Ashes next week. Need more than 90 minutes. Hello and welcome to Football Daily. Can't get enough cricket chat.

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