Test Match Special - From The Ashes: David Larter

Episode Date: November 11, 2025

Former England fast bowler David Larter was part of the England squad to head to the 1962/63 Ashes, the last time the team travelled down to Australia by boat. He speaks to the BBC’s Chief Cricket Reporter Stephan Shemilt about his memories of the journey, as well as being made to run round the boat to keep fit, stopping off in Colombo to play a warm-up match, and how he went from being talked about by the Australian press to featuring in a single Ashes Test.

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to From the Ashes, a series of test match special podcasts with those who've seen, played and lived some incredible Ashes moments. Here's Broad comes in, bowls, carries, and she's out! And Stuart Broad takes the final wicket in a dream finale. Broad comes in and bowls to Agar. Egar swings the short ball away. He could be caught. He's out. He's caught in the dead.

He's out for 98. A wonderful Dubu comes to an end. In goes bickle dashing up and bowls outside the off-tub. He laces it through the offside. He won't go for four. It'll certainly go for one. That's all that Michael Vaughn wants. He goes back for the second.

He's got his helmet off. His bat is raised. And Michael Vaughn scores his first century against Australia. Harris bustles the end bowls to him. Oh, he's caught behind. It's wide. He flashed at it and he's walked. The umpire didn't give him out.

He walked off. That's a big wicket. Well, the ashes are almost here. England have arrived in Australia and are preparing for the first test in Perth on the 21st of November. Their journey down under would have been one of comfort, airport lounges, business class flights, beds in the sky, how different to the days when touring parties travelled the 10,000 miles by boat with weeks and weeks at sea. The last time England undertook such a journey was for the 1962-63 ashes, and even then it was relatively short compared to previous tours of Australia. On this occasion, they flew part of the way

to Aden before spending 10 days at sea to reach Perth. Now, in the squad was fast bowler David Larta. At 22, he was only two years into a first-class career with Northamptonshire and was the youngest player in the group, led by Ted Dexter and rubbing shoulders with legendary names like Colin Cowdery, Fred Truman and Raymond Dillingworth. Larta is now 85 and I went to meet him at his home in Mid Wales for the story of England's last Ashes tour to be undertaken by boat. This is from the Ashes, David Latter. David firstly thank you for inviting us into your home here in the beautiful Welsh countryside

where did cricket come from how were you introduced to the game cricket came from school most definitely I went to a good school called Framlingham College Framlingham in Suffolk is where we lived and I was a day boy there and it was certainly on the curriculum along with rugby and hockey and athletics and whatever but cricket the summer belonged to cricket

and I just played it and enjoyed it and with my size and physique and I was already bigger and perhaps stronger than some of the others and I was bowling fair rate and became known as a fast bowler at even junior sort of level. What did the Ashes mean to you? What is your earliest, I don't know, Ashes memory maybe?

And what were the players that you can remember playing Ashes cricket? Well, the Ashes came into my life fairly early on because we had a local cinema in Framingham. And the news, Pathy News, with the big camera going. I think it was used to feature sports things. And I remember watching Ray Lindwall, the Australian, run across this screen with this lovely rhythmical pumping action and then the big heat and warmth.

And I thought, you know, that's good. And that, it must have wakened up the idea of Australia, England and the Ashes. And the funny thing is, I finished up opening the bowling with Ray Lindwall in karate, I think it was, we were playing. So from seeing him, and I'm about 10 years old or 12 years old, something like that, seeing him on the screen and then playing actually with him

is all part of that schoolboy's dream. Before we get into the journey, because that's primarily what we're here to talk about, I'd like to ask, what does a tour manager do and that's before we introduce who the tour manager for this particular trip was because I think it's important but what was the role of a tour manager yeah he's the figurehead and he is the spokesperson certainly even today I think if you have a manager of the tour that's who

you go to for your original permissions to do this to speak to the so so somebody and then at official functions. Because they were quite sociable events, weren't they? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You'd be expected to turn up to lots of different things. Yes, and it could also, I suppose, in a way, be determined the group disciplinarian in a way because he could tell you what to do

and what not to do, more likely off of, field rather than on the field so he would set standards and generally be the the man that steers the ship and the tour manager for the 1962 63 ashes was the 16th Duke of Norfolk yes Bernard Fitzton Howard what was he like he was a big surprise because he knew an awful lot more about cricket than we thought. Collectively, I think, there was a bit of a sigh that went round when he was named as the manager. What? Not whom, but what? But he knew what was going on. He really did. And he also had a crisp sort of sense of humour. The lads sometimes get in jokes going and all kinds of things happening in the dressing room and he was there he knew

what was going on and he wasn't a stranger to the dressing room it wasn't that he was whisked away by people uh lots of people wanted to know him and he did meet and greet an awful lot but um he was all equally you know at home with us as long as he has You had to respect the fact that he was of royal dissent, if you like, and he had several titles and so forth. And you didn't, you weren't cheeky to him, pretty like that. How did you have to address him? First thing in the morning, the first time you saw him, it was your grace.

If you were introducing him to anybody, it was his grace or your great, his grace, the Duke of Norfolk. after that it could be served for the rest of the day once you'd greeted him so there was that mark of respect there a bit like the forces and officers and that kind of thing you knew who to salute and who not to I think he was obviously a prominent figure on the tour

and we'll talk more about him as we go on but the journey touring had a rather sedate image cricketers unlike football superstars did not aspire to the social jet set. They travelled for weeks by boat to play overseas. There were fewer tests and none of the frenzy of the modern day game. Discipline was tight.

The players had plenty of time off between matches to spend their pocket money. Cricket was not big business. This was new, wasn't it? Partly because there was a plane. Yes. Part of it was a flight part to Aiden. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And that was, I don't know, revolutionary, wasn't it? To be taking that part of the journey by plane. Yes, well, you see, instead of a three-week ship journey, it was just a 10-dayer. Just a 10-dayer. Yeah. And it was the first time, the first time it had been done. We got a B-O-A-C, as it was then flight from Heathrow, direct. Did we go anywhere else?

No, I think we went direct to Aden, which is where we. picked up the Canberra. The camera was sitting there sort of more or less waiting for us, if you'd like. And we had a day, had about a day in Aden looking around. And then we were off 10 days then across the Indian Ocean. How did the idea of flying part of it go down with some of the players? Because straight away you think, oh, they must think that's great. You know, they're not on a boat for so long. But some of the players actually saw that as the time on the boat as a positive for a couple of reasons. One, to rest up after a long county season.

But two, to gradually acclimatize to the changing temperature. I mean, the further south you go, the warmer it is. When you get to Australia, you have gradually acclimatized rather than just now when players fly there. They go from the English autumn dropped into the heat of Australia. So is there anyone who wasn't actually, we're not sure about this? Was it all a positive, a positive to be taking that bit of the journey and a play? I would say more of the positive.

People enjoyed it, whether it was the previous three-week trip or even the trip that we did. You enjoyed it, being on a huge ocean liner like that and the life that is afforded while you were on there. And I don't think anybody in the group I was with that was jittery about it or worried about it, no. And so what, 10 days on the boat from Aden? What do you do in that time?

In my case, you eat. Honestly, I've never had before or since such a sustained spell of just magnificent eating because we were first class. That's the amazing thing. The MCC, in their wisdom, paid for whatever they got. They'd got a negotiated rate, no doubt. Because at that point, the MCC were in charge of the tour. But it was first class.

Now, what we got was a mixture of old millionaires who were sort of sitting there who are just taking a bit of sun in on their trip. And us, and the stewards just loved us because they'd bring these great trolleys full of wonderful food. And they knew we'd eat it. Whereas the old richer people, you know, perhaps were more picky.

Anyway, that was one of the big things. What do you do? Yeah, you could be bored stiff, but we used to have an exercise session in the morning. You know, reasonable breakfast and up. And then a bit of, I don't know what they were, really. They probably badminton courts or that kind of things. They were sort of netted off for us. And we used to shove weights about and jump up and down and things like that.

But that's when this Yorkshireman called Gordon Piri came into the picture. Somebody found out he was on the boat. And he was invited to come and organise us. Gordon Pry was an athlete. Yes, yeah, yeah. Well known, very well known at the time. But he was on the boat to Australia to take. his family out there and he turned up with his shorts on and he decided that the best

exercise will be running around the boat it's quite a long way around one of those big boats and one certainly Fred Truman voiced an opinion which meant that he was no way was he running around a bloody boat he just didn't know that wasn't what we did to get fit. To get fit, we play cricket. That was what it's about because in those days, they do pretty well today, but in those days, we used to be six days a week. Solid cricket. And that's where you got your, not strength, but that's where you got your ability to stick with it, go through minor injuries and push and push that sort of thing and this is what you did and i know fred had uh said he just bowled whatever it was 13 or 15 hundred overs or something you know england season and he wasn't going

to run around a bloody boat for anybody and the gordon purring just died off what was your stance were you happy to run around as the young lad or were you following fred's lead i did no i did what I was told. Fred had already got a reputation for being a slightly obstreperous about this and that. And I think if you got too associated then, you know, you'd have been tarred with the same brush. And not on. I've got on famously with Fred. I really did.

I enjoyed his company all the way through. But no, I did what I was told. You mentioned that there were obviously other passengers on the boat. were they aware of who you guys were and certainly the bigger names like your dexter's and your trumans and your stadiums and was i don't know a celebrity status did they want to be around you did they want to socialize with you that didn't happen that much um certainly up in the first class end um i think they they they knew yes who um these were people business people and that kind of thing that traveling backwards and forwards um

or maybe just moneyed people who'd got interests both in England and Australia, they were fine. I won't even use words like tolerated or acknowledged or what. They were fine. That was okay. We found the greatest sort of reception, if you like, was, if you like, downstairs.

There were people emigrating and moving and so forth for all sorts of reasons. lot of them were young and going to out there to make new lives and everything something we we knew nothing about so it was so interesting to meet them and there were a couple of well more than a couple of decent bars you can have you can have a quiet pint up in the top it was more champagne So we, I think, my impression anyway is of the journey we did, we got on well with whatever up the top or below. And what about, I don't know, it must have been great for team spirit and morale because there would have been a lot of those players that you didn't know. Actually, you would have been meeting for the first time when you got on the play.

Yes, in my case. And so it's a bonding exercise when you're going to take on a five, six month tour. of Australia, that must have been quite something. Yeah, I would say it did happen, certainly did. You shared a cabin and you were allotted somebody before you even got there. I shared a cabin with Len Coldwell, who played for Worcester. Unfortunately, from the first minute, fine, we got on well, that was great. and I think

I can't sort of come up with an example of people who didn't get on people people did and yes as you say the meals and the exercises

and so forth and relaxation even was a time for bonding and by the time we got to Perth then you got a coherent unit that was ready to sort of move as one almost it must have been fabulous for this young lad from suffolk who only a couple of years beforehand was working in insurance to all of a sudden be first class on the boat from aden to

perth and you just said eating all the all the food and everything that goes with it what an experience for a for a 22 year old yeah you just you just encapsulated it you just said it you know that is It's almost out of reach, it's out of this world. It was, I was 22 by then. It really was schoolboy stuff. And it was expected, you know, to go on further. There was quite a fuss when we got to Australia about me and what I was going to do to all these Australians

and in fact finish up not doing anything at all. I guess the point I'm making is that If, I don't know, we asked Ben Stokes or Joe Ruth or Harry Brooke to get on the boat at the minute and travel to Australia in that way, they might not take too kindly to it. But you guys actually saw it as a privilege and something to be enjoyed. Yeah, yeah, it was part of the tours. And I've seen comments from Australians where it is backwards the other way as well. They loved it. They loved the boat to England.

It's as you said about weather conditions Perhaps it slowly sort of got them used to European weather with us It was the other way around Although we were dropped in it a bit in Aden It was a bit warm But then we had those days before Australia A crucial bit of the boat journey And maybe just clarify this for me

Did you hop off and play in Colombo? Yes Is that how it went? Yes Yeah So again you know bringing it forward to the present day imagine england tuning up for an ashes tour

by playing a game in colombo when the ball is i don't know turning and all those sorts of things then pitching up to play in perth when it's you know bouncing at head high what was that like yeah well it weird for me because um we're playing against whatever they wanted to call themselves colombo shrillenka well it was still colombo um and they'd got a reasonable cricket side out there and we walked out on the field and Ted Dexter said to me you can open the bowling

yeah so I marked how to run ran in and fell flat on my face just um just before the delivery stride a real sprawler oh ah right picked myself up went back up and run and came in again and did exactly the same I'd lost my legs lost my land legs they weren't going you know where I wanted and because you've been on the boat yeah yeah yeah and Ted came across and he said well what's wrong I said well I just just can't get they don't work because you probably know enough about bowling to know that as you run in you're going to the last two or three strides you're going to start to turn and then there's almost a double bit where and that was the bit whack and if I carried on and he took me off I think Mary and I had done had done

to finish the over-off. So that was my experience. But the experience, yes, we were entertained, looked after, if you like, by the British Army, it was, who were out there for some reason or other. And they put on a big barbecue for us on the beach. And then, yeah, that's the kind of thing. How are you going to get to that from a small village?

Well, small town in Suffolk or something. You know, you're on the beach in Ceylon. with all these nice people. So that was an eye-opener as much as anything else, just stopping there because me, I hadn't even been out of the country before then. That was my first sort of real trip out of the country, going to Australia on the tour. So including the time that you've spent in Sri Lanka to play that game,

How long is it between boarding the boat in Aden and getting off in Perth? Roughly how long would you? Well, I always say 10 days, and I think that that was probably about it, yeah. And what was it like arriving in Perth? Was it an event? Were you greeted by Aussie media and people, or was there very little attention given to you? No, it was quite quiet. There was more attention given by customs and those people.

they knew we'd been in Colombo and they knew we'd kept certain part of our kit back so that we could play in Colombo and they wanted it boots in particular and it was strange you'd got Australian customs officials

cleaning your boots for you because they have They wouldn't want to the soil or anything coming into Australia or soil-borne diseases after that we were met and greeted by a group of

volunteers really they were who were west australian um cricket club members who were our taxis runners about um that that that there was no great um speeches or anything they came over a little bit later probably in the evening because as i call it was morning i think when we when we we got in yeah i wanted to ask about maybe some of the attention that was on you as tourists and this this necessarily when you first arrived in Perth, but maybe as the tour developed, for a couple of reasons. One, Ted Dexter's wife, Susan, was a model. Of course, David Shepard was ordained. And our friend, the Duke of Norfolk, potentially had his horses running or was socialising in all different wherever you happen to go.

Yeah. So for those three reasons, Susan Dexter, David Shepard and the Duke of Norfolk, and did Fred Truman maybe take slight exception to that? Maybe there was more attention on you guys off the field as there was on the field? I don't think Fred in particular was, you know, they wanted anything, did anything strange.

but it was almost a dividing of the camp in that these were the amateurs and the rest of the professionals you see all three of those forgive the Duke because he's got a few million but the others they brought their wives at i.e. Ted Dex's wife and that never occurred to us it never never never seemed part and parcel of what we could possibly do and suddenly they got their families there

on their own expense I will add it's not like today where there are allowances for the women but I don't know I don't think it caused any real upset or problem no The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Bring more gear, carry more passengers, face greater challenges.

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Win the tech search. Power up at Lenovo.com. in Australia, how was he? How was he as a figurehead? Was he entertaining when you're turning up to, to the dinners that you're expected to? What was he doing away from the cricket? Did he have his horses running in races? How was it touring with the Duke of Norfolk?

You didn't, well I didn't socialize with him. He, when we were in Perth, I thought he did very well. He invited us all to dinner, two at a time. So, Alen and I went and had a meal with him, dinner, and he was very good in that, you know, he wanted to know who you were, where and what and why. So that was a good introduction to him.

It made more familiar just seeing him around. But his movements, social movements, if you like, were way above us, you know, several scales above us, we would not be in the same class. And I don't think even the so-called amateurs were. He had, you see, he's in all his own contacts or whatever. So if he was off gone somewhere, Rolls-Royce would turn up to pick him up

and he'd just sort of wave him goodbye for the evening. The 62-63 series, five test matches. 25-26 is going to be five test matches. That is where the comparison ends because Ben Stokes' team this year are going to play one warm-up game against the England Lions in Perth a week before the first test.

And then there is another game on the tour, which is an England Lions team playing against the Prime Minister's 11 between the first and second tests. You guys played 27. matches in Australia including the five tests and you went everywhere Calgoorley Griffith

Tuwamba Hobart Port Lincoln Newcastle Canberra Dubbo and that's not I haven't mentioned the venues for the test matches how was that like and often these games were close together so were you flying around as that what it was like

and you were crisscross in Australia for four or five months Australia is a good deal of flying yes and it's like getting on a bus almost they're used to it it's difficult to say what we felt then what I feel

now is yes you know these these fellows what are they saying what are they crying about there's nothing you know the stuff we did yeah there's an awful lot of cricket it was day after day after day you'd be flying into somewhere

Adelaide or somewhere like that and six seven or eight o'clock at night and 8 o'clock next morning you're off to the ground so it was on non-stop cricket there weren't that many of us I think about 16, 17

something like that in the I almost don't see a comparison I don't say they're soft and they're whatever these days but they do an awful

long travelling I mean we were in the country and that was it apart from Tasmania, we stayed in the country. But yeah, God knows how many thousand miles we clocked up. Do you remember what you did at Christmas? How was that celebrated? It was good. It was good.

That tour, I remember we were in Adelaide. And we'd been booked in a big hotel out of Adelaide and on the beach. Brilliant. And Christmas dinner was on the beach, a barbecue type thing on the beach. And that was surreal, really. I mean, how does an Englishman take, you know, his Christmas dinner on the beat? A few messages backwards and forwards, that kind of thing with the folks at home. Yeah, it was almost a surprise to us to find that the Australians, you know, celebrated Christmas just almost as much as we did in a different way.

You go your shorts on and your suntan rather than all wrapped up in a great. it would go. But by that point Christmas Day you'd only played one test match you'd left home at the end of September beginning of October the first test match was drawn in Brisbane

I think it's important to stress at the moment the Australians were holders of the ashes that becomes important later on so drawn first test match in Brisbane the second test in Melbourne England won that included

a rest period for new year it was played over the new year period the third test in Sydney England lost because of being shot out for quite a low score in the third innings and the last two tests were drawn there were two

test matches in Sydney because at that point Perth wasn't a test match venue and I guess an important thing to stress at this point is you didn't play in those five test matches you went all around Australia all those cities that we've just mentioned and you didn't play you'd been talked up yeah how was that for you a little

depressing um they did knock me back a bit and to jump forward i was very pleased to take a bag full of wickets when we got to new zealand almost uh that showed them um because i was left out i think would be a better a good expression rather than just dropped um because I wasn't there to be dropped but I was left out because of this business of quick bowlers don't bat and I don't think

Ted Dexter or Alec Betzer wanted three wickets at the end three places at the end of the batting order where you couldn't rely on them for a few runs so you're looking for the other all rounders

Barry Knight came into the equation and Barry was a pretty good bowler but he could bat as well so he got the position and I just didn't did you feel like you were ever close to playing did you feel like you could you know we talked about all these other games that were going on yeah did you feel like you could push your case in those in those games or was it you know I'm competing with stay them and Truman it's so hard to get past those guys we we played um

Western Australia and an Australian 11, I believe, in Perth at the end of our sort of introductory training period. And I got wickets. And I know I made them sit up a bit and jump around a bit. Now, Perth in particular then, was pretty quick. And it really whizzed through. And I didn't take it as an automatic at all, but I thought then that that was fine. You know, I'd booked a place.

Obviously I hadn't. you see won't come into this but a good deal later we got back here there's the West Indies tour there's another Australian tour guess who's 12th man

about 10 bloody times excuse the language it really was getting to me a bit then it was a bit frustrating it used to go away in county cricket you know six for seven for whatever

and get picked and push out again can you tell me when you're left out of those test matches is it 12 man duties as we know them now or was actually the 12th man a lot busier back then because it would have been a small touring party when you're doing everything for the guys that are playing no you could find

somebody from the home side whatever area district it was would start to help on say halfway through the first day and then through the rest of the match they would help but he was still 12th man and the initial 12th man yes it was serious

you know you had your blazer on and everything and almost carried the drinks but no no you you could get off I used to get off and go practising the nets and stuff like that and just as a final thought on that Australian part of it how did you enjoy Australia

I mean you've said yourself that was basically the first time that you'd left the country as a 22-year-old who haven't long been working in insurance. Yeah. How did you find it? Yeah. I nearly made a decision to go back there. I got offered about three jobs just about talking to people.

And I wasn't married or anything then. And I nearly thought, well, this is the place for me. And that to me speaks volumes. I liked Australia. I liked New Zealand. But I like Australia, I think there was a wider opportunity there. And, yeah, I almost moved there. You've just alluded to it.

The fifth ashes test ended on the 5th of February. You've been away now since the end of September, the beginning of October. And then remarkably, three more test matches in New Zealand. So firstly, how did you get there? Was that a flight or was that another boat trip? No, no, that was a flight. That was a flight, but we've now got three more test matches beginning on the 23rd of February. Adelaide, Wellington, Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch.

You played all three. Yeah. England won all three. And you were in the wickets. Yeah. Did you feel like you had, I don't know, proved a few people wrong? Yes. So, yeah, yeah.

And two or three of the lads, well, more than that, four or five of the lads sort of the same. I got support, but from non-effective support, you know, just from the other what I call lads. Len, for example, Peter Parfay, John Murray, or people like that, they all wondered why the hell I didn't play. But there you go, yeah. six months away it's time to come home firstly how did you get home was there another boat journey

straight straight on the plane yeah where I don't know where are you stopping on the way is it the same route back or are we flying yeah from that trip straightforwardly

doing the normal route I think you know the Singapore the Cairo the whatever that way there is another way across the Pacific I'd done that before but now it is flight

economy class would you believe for a man as well of your height six or eight how was that well you used to pray for the plane not to be full because you've got to take your seat for takeoff and then look around and see where there's a double that was empty uncomfortable

and what was it like coming home Because you just had six months in the southern hemisphere. Is it a little while to acclimatize and all those sorts of things? Yeah, you get back to the cold and the mist and the whatever. It's a question of adjusting. And as I got on over that sort of five, six years I was playing, you know, I had several adjustments. Australia, India, whatever, in different places, Africa.

a bit like they've got to today, I suppose, they've got to take in whatever's happening, mostly really weather-wise, I'm talking about, where, yeah, sure, there's a bit of a shock change, if you. You played six more test matches after that initial 62, 63 tour, and you were part of the 65-66 Ashes tour, one that was done exclusively by playing

and again you didn't play a test match on that tour but how was it was that a different experience was the taking the entire trip by playing was that different was it poorer for it actually

I don't think so you've got more time for cricket yes and finally enough less time for practice there were even more cricket serious cricket matches shoe horned in

and you get the odd Sunday match and things like that yeah that that tour well that was it that was the finish it was a shame

it was a disaster I should have come home so we rolled them out in Western Australia again and we moved across and we were in Sydney and it was only about third or fourth match

and I ran up and just turned this ankle over and that was it end of career but everybody kept saying oh it'll get better it'll get better and did it hell and

I think yeah I should have gone on I was called into a little meeting with Mike Smith and Billy Griffiths who was the manager and they said you know would you like to stay

will you stay because it will get better they got the same story and I became an assistant assistant manager if you like lots of things procurer of whatever keepsakes and things like that provider of motor cars and so forth because I knew people anyway that finished my career

I came back here and again tried again people said you'll be alright it'll get better and he just didn't. So, backed up about 60, I don't know, 66, 60, probably 66, yeah, last time I played seriously. You talked about the ankle injury that ultimately ended your career, and we've just talked about two ashes tours that you were on and didn't play. Right, at the start of this conversation, you talked about the young boy who saw the footage in the cinema of, of Ray Lindwall bowling, I guess, how deep of a regret is it that you didn't get the chance to play Ash's cricket?

Well, very much, that's a good word. Afterwards, I even went ante. I didn't want to know. I was offered two or three avenues, coaching, going up being one of the big schools, being the cricket professional, and just said, no, don't want to know and went off to completely different my old man was um all his

contractor so I went off and more or less joined him after a couple of abortive little jobs and I shoved it away gave it away and um looking back I don't know that I could have done that any differently it was me I that was it finish and um yeah you hint it, I don't know, a sadness or a bitterness towards the end of your career and maybe not playing an Ashes test match and there was a time when you put cricket to one side and you didn't want to know. But the way we've just spoken about your experience, you seem to reflect on it with great fondness. So having put time between you and the end of your career, how do you reflect on, particularly that 62,

63 tour when you were on the boat and it just sounded like the time of your life yeah it was unbelievable and I mean that in its proper sense you you couldn't believe it was going to happen but it did and I had apart from the non-appearance in test matches I I just had the time of my life it was wonderful to see such a different place and and experience high class, good class cricket. I mean, you know, playing against South Australia who walks out to bat Garfield Sobers. You know, that kind of thing you think, oh, gross.

Anyway, that's the kind of thing I remember. And enjoy remembering. And the food? Oh, yes, yeah. They're a carnivorous nation, you know, the Aussies, and you get lots of lovely steaks and whatever. Yeah, I enjoyed that. And just as two final points,

when you look at how the England team are going to undertake a tour now in 2025, how different it is the experience that you had compared to what those guys are going to have this year? And I wonder if in some ways it's a poorer experience that they're going to have compared to what you had. I'm not sure how much they can relax and enjoy what they're doing. In other words, play during the day and then relax in the evening. You even have an odd day off at the weekend. It used to be traditional with us. Sunday was off.

Didn't have to go to church, but nevertheless. It seems to me to be all of a rush. I read the paper and I think, oh, good God, you know, they're in the West Indies. What are they doing now? They're in Hong Kong or somewhere. Now they're in Australia. That would, I think, that would be a bit much for me. It's such a quicker pace.

Maybe we played more cricket, but the pace that they play up today. But again, the rewards are there, aren't they? I see these lads, you know, I don't know what they're getting, but certainly nothing like us. A trip to Australia, you say, six months, $1,250 quid. That's it. That's your fee for the tour. And you take your own spending money, as it were. So that's the great difference.

It was a pleasure to be a professional cricketer, but it wasn't profitable. particularly. Just you mentioned the fee of your £1,250 do you have any contact with home while you were there, putting you through all the operators? No, no, I'd never thought of it. No, it wasn't offered, never thought of it, no, no. You get letters and air mails.

We used to get yesterday's telegraph sent through to the dressing room in the air mail form. It used to be thin, thin paper. By the time I got around to the six or seven's reading, was it it was in bits and just going back to the comparison between your experience and what they're going to have this time I think you had more fun yes yes I do it's this business again of exposure intrusion almost where the same of the footballers the golfers whoever you can't walk down the street

where I know full well I have personally walked into a fairly crowded London pub say and people are going to notice that much and you said

and that's it you're fine you just have a beer they've just saying oh look on him and that's it now I think you get about half a dozen hangers on somebody else wants to

take, you know, several photographs or whatever. And it's just all the time. Last question. Would you swap with them? Would you swap with the class of 2005? Yeah, see what you mean. I honestly don't know. I need to be weighing up the rewards, wouldn't I? What am I getting? A bit of notoriety or fame or whatever. I'm getting a lot of money. Yes. How am I getting the experience of travel, etc?

Seriously, don't know. Don't know. It's been an absolute joy to talk to you. Thank you very much. I've done some rabbiting. That was From the Ashes with David Larta. Previous episodes in this series feature Stuart Broad, Michael Vaughn and Ryan Harris.

You can find them. all on BBC Sounds. Make sure you're subscribed to the Test Match Special podcast so you get a notification every time we upload. We'll be bringing daily podcasts from Australia during the Ashes, which is now less than two weeks away. It all gets underway on Friday the 21st of November and TMS will have live ball by ball commentary from Perth.

That's it for now. We'll speak to you next time. Live sports. The Rugby Union Autumn International's Unbelievable scenes are shell-shocked Twickenham. Rugby Union's elite

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