Test Match Special - From the Ashes: Glenn McGrath

Episode Date: April 26, 2023

The first episode of a new series where the BBC’s Chief cricket writer Stephan Shemilt discovers some of the untold stories from the Ashes. In this edition Stephan talks to one of the most successful Ashes performers of all time, Glenn McGrath. During arguably the most famous Ashes series in 2005, McGrath trod on a ball before play at Edgbaston and missed the game through injury. He gives a fascinating account of what happened next, what it was like to be forced to be a spectator at the game and how Manchester United helped him make a near miracle recovery to be able to play the next Test against all the odds.

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Someone had told them that Darren Bradshaw was going to be murdered. It's a story that's never been told. before for his own skin he traded darned life this is blood in the dance floor listen now on BBC sounds BBC sounds music radio podcasts you're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live hello and welcome to the test match special podcast I'm Stefan Shemelt the BBC's chief cricket writer in less than a couple of months the ashes will be underway Australia arriving for one of the most anticipated series in recent memory. England's men have been transformed under Ben Stokes

and will be looking to regain the urn, while England's women take on one of the most dominant teams in world sport at the moment. Coming up, we'll be hearing from one of the greatest bowlers in Ash's history, Glenn McGrath. He faithfully trod on a cricket ball before the second Ash's test of 2005 and had to miss two matches in one of the most famous series of all time.

He gives a fascinating insight into what happened after the injury, what it was like to have to sit out the two tests Australia lost and how a trip to Manchester United aided his return to fitness. It's part of a series called From the Ashes and over the next few weeks we'll bring you more untold stories from the historic rivalry. You can read much more on the BBC Sport website and app. Episode 1 is all about Glenn McGrath.

You're listening to the TMS. podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Glenn, when you were growing up as a young lad in Dubbo, what did The Ashes mean to you at that point? You know, I did watch it a little bit and, you know, I just loved playing sports. So I started playing tennis when I was younger, golf and basketball through school,

but I just played cricket for fun. So I didn't watch a great deal of sport when I was younger. And yeah, I'm trying to think when I first really, I remember, that 81 series probably with, you know, with Terry Allerman just swinging around corners, 81, 89, but also, you know, with Beefy and Bobby Willis and Dennis Lilly and those guys. So I was probably a little bit, a bit of a late starter there. But, yeah, the Ashes to me is still the ultimate. It's the Australia versus England. I know series against the West

Indies, India, you know, South Africa and New Zealand, everyone else is important. But there's something special about the Ashes. You know, that's where it all started. And, yeah, the old enemy, as we call you guys, or you call us or whatever you want. It's always been a dream to play for Australia. And then you want to play in an Asher series home, but especially away. How different was your perception of Ashes Cricket to the reality of playing in it? I don't think I ever had a perception of it.

I just took it as it came and, you know, when I first started playing cricket, when it happened for me, when I started a lot, I moved to Sydney when I was 19. So before that, I played a handful of representative games. So there wasn't much sort of build up to that. And then moved to Sydney, and within four years I was playing for Australia. So when it happened, it happened very quickly and I think I was just riding the wave. I just had just recently been picked for New South Wales. I was loving everything to do with first class cricket. And then here I am preparing for my first test match and off we go.

And it probably wasn't until West Indies 95 that I'd really cemented my place in the team. And then the first Asher's test match, I played the first and the last. And it was a big learning experience for me because I'd been listening to people. They said you have to bowl consistent outswing to be successful at the test level. I wanted to be successful, so I started swinging the ball. And my first test against England was at the Gabba. And I was bowling big out-swingers, didn't have that good of control, finished the match with the figures of none for 120,

and didn't play the next three games. So that was a big learning experience. But I went into that first Ashes series with no preconceived ideas or it's another test match. And I guess it wasn't really. And then the final match I got picked again because injury had happened to, I think, Damien Fleming, who came into the team. And then I just went back to why I got picked in the first place,

just bowling good areas, staying tall, getting that bounce and a bit of scene movement. And it worked. But then to come over here in 97, on an Ashes tour, is so much different. And I loved it. I loved playing cricket in England. I think it suited my style of bowling. And it's so different. You know, you don't travel around in aircraft.

you travel around on a coach and you know it's it's just a whole different feel and i absolutely loved it so no preconceived ideas just went with the flow and just try to enjoy it make the most of it but in that going with the flow until 2005 you and australia while you were playing ashes cricket had known nothing but success yeah yeah i look back in in my career i've been very lucky to have played in the era of australian cricket that was so strong and you know you could probably count on a hand or two how many series we lost during that that career so yeah it was we'd only ever really known success and when I came into the side

you know the team was playing well and was winning so I think I was again lucky to come into a team that were playing really good cricket they were winning they were a close unit they really took me under their wing that I didn't feel like I was an extra when I first got selected and I think that experience and that sort of way I was accepted into the team

allowed me to really just play as I did be confident and just go out there and back ourselves and play without fear so it was a great environment to come into and lucky to go through that pretty much most of our careers so 2005 then

two things about the early part of that series one you personally were flying because of what happened at Lords. But had you seen enough from England at that point to know they were a different animal? I think we had, you know, there'd been a lot of build-up into that series that this was a series that England

were going to, you know, regain the ashes. They'd been playing well together for 18 months. Michael Vaughn had been doing a great job as captain and, you know, they'd been winning. And when you win, and cricket's very much a confident sport. And when you get on a bit of a role, start finding ways to win, things start going in your favour, you seem to have a little bit more luck when you're playing confidently than when you don't. So, yeah, they were a different

team. There was no doubt about that. And that first day at Lords, they came hard at us, knocked us over for 190. I remember Harmeson, bowling some rockets to Justin Langer and especially to Ricky Ponting and hit him in the grill, cut him. So we thought they were a different team. They came hard at us, but then we fought back in our first innings of bowling. And then you know secondings batting our batsman sort of took it away and we ended up winning that first test quite convincingly we thought they're a new look new attitude England team than we'd seen but we felt you know if we play as well as we can we still have their measure and from your personal point of view particularly how you'd bowled on that first evening in the Lord's test got past 500 test wicket is that when you had the gold shoes on us oh yeah gold bowling books that were ready to go yeah so to come to to England on that Ashes Tour on 499 test wickets with the chance to take my 500th at Lords the Homer Cricket, which was absolutely incredible.

And then when it happened, yeah, to 500. It was Michael Kassavich, who was 12th man, was supposed to bring the boots down a fine leg at the end of the over. And for some reason, he ran it out after I took that wicket. And then I'm, what do I do? Bugger, I'll just, I'll just, I'll change them now and I caught plenty of flack from my teammates as you do

and then swaned around and my boots had all gold all over them and then picked up four quick wickets after that so it worked but yeah I copped a bit from my teammates. You still got them? I think they're in the MCG Museum down there so yeah they're still there. And we're not really here to talk about what happened on that more morning at Edgebaston because it's a well-told story but we can't talk about what we want

to talk about without going over that yeah and it's a long time ago now it's 18 years ago that we saw people who weren't even alive when it happened you're flying Australia 1-0 up yeah and then well it's it's interesting you know we're going well we're playing well we've been playing good cricket for a long time and then routines are important to cricketers and routines are very important to me and for some reason we changed our routine before that game you know john buchin and our coach decided we leave half an hour earlier than we normally do so we get to the ground i normally get to the ground stuff around get out get all my training gear on get out just in time for warmups to start and off

you go but this this day we got to the ground by the time we got out ready to go there's still half an hour before warm up started we've gone out had a look at the the pitch and yeah it was just standing around chatting and Brad Haddon, our reserve wicker keeper picks up a rugby league ball and we just start passing it back and forth. And he rates himself as a bit of a league. He threw a rubbish pass that sort of bounced halfway and rolled along the ground. And I just innocently turned to go and pick the ball up. But what I hadn't seen was, I'm not sure whether our coach or trainer or whoever was,

went behind us and put ball glove, ball glove, ball glove for us to, when we do start warm-ups, to warm up our shoulders. And my first step was on the ball. I still don't remember seeing it, but I remember feeling it. And, yeah, I knew I'd done it pretty badly straight away. And then scans showed that I'd fully ruptured two ligaments and a bit of bone damage as well. So they normally say six to eight week injury. And, you know, I came back to Edgebaston to find out that, you know,

Ricky Pond had won the toss. We decided to have a bowl. I don't think Warnie was overly impressed with that. and it sort of went a bit pear shape from there. So, you know, you think you change your routine and then a few little, few things happen and then it, yeah, it goes from there. But, you know, I started icing my ankle straight away, the physio every 20 minutes on and off and a bit of treatment.

And then I had treatment 24-7 after that. You know, even in the middle of the night, I was getting a bit of treatment and things like that. And within seven days, I played a test match. So, yeah, it's two things I look at that. If you provide the right environment for the body to heal itself, it can. And if you've got the right people around you who are expertise and their learnings, what, you know, they can make a massive difference.

And our physio, Errol Alcott is, you know, is the best physio I've seen. And so he's, as I said, his expertise allowed me to play a test match seven days later. Do you know to this day why the routine was changed? No, no. So, and, you know, if we think back and think, if we just stuck to the normal routine, whether John Buchanan wanted us to get down there, whether he was, you know, thought, you know, we've got to prepare better, we make sure we don't let it slip, you know. And, yeah, if we just stuck to our normal routine, I would have got out on the ground.

Okay, warm-ups, let's go, and off you go. So, I don't know, you talk to some people, they believe in fate. They say, yeah, you trot on the ball there. If you didn't tread on there, you probably would have done something in warm-up. So I'm not sure which way to look at it. But, yeah, I think if we kept our routines the same, then I may have played that test match and been fine. I was in the crowd that day. I was queuing up, I think, trying to get into the gates at Edgebaston.

And obviously, that's before, things like Twitter and, you know, instant news. And it just sort of filters through. I think I heard by sticking my headphones on and listening to Test Match Special that you weren't playing. Yeah, I think Jonathan Agnew, so Agger says he was. the one that got to announce that I was out of the test match due to injury. And I've heard, you know, the recording of that. And he sounds quite happy and very gleeful. And I've said a few photos of him announcing it where he's got big smiles on his face.

So he makes me think that, yeah, he was quite happy with that. Glenn McGrath, taking the final wicket at Lords. But as he welcome you to Edgebaston, it's with the news, but Australia's leading fast bowler is out of the game. He trod on a ball in the warm up and has twisted his ankle so McGraw is out and will take no part in this test match

he's currently in hospital having precautionary x-rays so Michael Kassavich comes into Australia's 11 which is otherwise unchanged I got back to the ground just doing time for the ground announcer to say that I was out of the test and yeah it was

got a big cheer so that was just a little unusual and this is the point we're here for the what happened next so you're carted off on a stretch Gotcha, taken straight to hospital? Yeah, so cut it off in the golf cart or whatever it was, straight to the car, straight to hospital, scan straight away.

You know, worked out what damage was there, came back, and then, yeah, it was just, okay, let's hook into it straight away. But you're at that point, you're thinking you're done for the series? Potentially, because I have done my ankle before, and I know how long it takes to recover from. And, you know, most doctors will say, okay, don't do anything on it for 24 hours, you know maybe 24 48 hours maybe ice a little bit and that lets allow the swelling to set in

and as soon as the swelling sets in then you bugged and so alfizio didn't allow the swelling to set in and then just kept it under control with ice and then just got in there and manipulated it and started the repair pretty much straight away what sort of character are you in that situation are you a look at the best case scenario or are you thinking worst case

I don't know. I've always been a type of person to live in the now. You know, that's probably helping good stand in a lot of times. Maybe other times I could have sort of prepared a little bit better for the future. So I just looked at that. I didn't even consider I would be out of the rest of the series. I didn't really consider anything except what do I actually have to do now? What's the very next thing I need to do to get myself, give myself the best possibility, best chance to play as soon as possible. So I just focused on exactly what I had to do.

to do. You know, our physio Errolorkot was there. He was there majority of the time and had a plan straight away and that's what we stuck to. And I think even a couple of days out from the test, we were up here in Manchester. And I was still, I was just gingerly walking, but I was starting to walk a lot better. And then we went down to Manchester United's game. And we did a bit of a training session down there, met a few of the men, new boys. And that was where I first started to be able to jog on it and run on it and then the following day in the test match I was running and I could bowl and away we went Manchester United helped you get fit for the third test well I was I don't know if they actually helped but it was it was great sort of you know

it's at Alex Ferguson and everyone was there so it was just a great experience to be down there and just to experience how we did a bit of a session there and yeah it was good but on that first day at edgebaston I mean you're on crutches aren't that right yeah I think you even spoke to the media, which I find remarkable. I think I've seen quotes from you from that day. Yeah, I don't even remember. Maybe, you know, I just think it is what it is. So, yeah, I'll go and chat to the media.

That's fine, but okay, this is what I have to do. And looking back now, the fact that I played that test match, it wasn't a shock or a surprise to me. I just, this is what I had to do. Okay, this is what I'll do. But Errol Alcott had ruled you out. I think I've seen articles from the time where he was saying, Glenn's not playing next week straight away. He'd already gone on. I'm good to say that.

Well, he looked at the scans and he knew how much damage I'd done. And straight away, just think there's no way you can get someone back in seven days. But I think my bowling action and the fact that cricket and bowling is all about straight lines. If I had to

dodge and weave, I probably would have been no chance. But yeah, I think after what happened at Edgebaston, they wanted to try to get you know the full team back together and yeah i i don't remember whether there was any doubt in me playing or whether i just came out of the blue and said yep i'm playing uh but yeah i just went into that that first day um turned up ready to go bowling um in warm-ups as if nothing was wrong so yeah sure i had my ankle really well taped um but yeah i didn't feel any any issues or

hindrance from it so yeah it was one of those things what had you gone through watching the edge busting test it was tough sitting there watching not so much that we lost or you know you always always feel what more impact or positive impact could i've had on the team and even when i'm playing and if we lose a game i will always think what more could i have done for our team to have done better. I never blame anyone else. So I guess sitting there being injured is, to me, is worse than when you get dropped for lack of form because you should be out there. The only thing holding your back is the fact you've developed an injury. So it's tough in that respect. Yeah, so I just felt maybe I could have offered a little bit more in the, you know, bowling. But, you know, Michael

Kastovich is a quality bowler. There's no doubt about it. But sometimes it's not so much the bowling impact, it's the overall impact on the mental state of the opposition. All of a sudden, I'm not playing. And I bowed well at Lords. I picked up nine wickets in the match. I think I got man in the match as well. Then all of a sudden, one of their top players is out. It gives a bit of a lift to the opposition, which wouldn't have been there otherwise. So cricket's very much a mental, played in the mind as much as it is played out in the middle. So that would have may have given them a bit of a lift mentally and then from there they just backed themselves and that match was incredible so you're aware of that are you that sort of i don't know i don't know if

all is the right word or maybe it's just respect that the opposition has for you or the hold you might have over them like you did that you did over england for all your career you're you're aware of that yeah i think or is probably the right word and the way the reason i say that is I've played opposition teams and their best player goes out before the game starts and all of a sudden it just it naturally just gives you

oh you know we're going to win this game like it's not even a second thought so it does have an impact mentally and I think that's the difference that it would have made because I've seen it in reverse when you know earlier in my career when opposition players were ruled out for one reason or another so that was being the impact it would have had

Yeah, it's why it goes. Are you a good watcher? Not particularly. Even now, I'll go inside. I'll watch a bit of cricket if Australia playing well. I'll watch a bit more if they're playing badly. I'll go and do something else. So I love being out there playing.

I'm a participant more so than a watcher. And you talk about, I don't know, maybe what you could do when the team's under the pump or whatever. And in that particular test, it was really in the balance when Andrew Flintov counterattacked on the third day with the bat, I think he were really under pressure and he counted, made it quite a valuable half century. Is that

one of those times when you're thinking what would I be doing? What could I add to the team, either with the ball or just through my present? Pretty much. And that's, you know, we can sit here and discuss all day and never come up with an answer. So I may

have played that game and England won even more convincingly. We just don't know. So it was just one of those things. You want to keep the same. group of people together and not unsettled the team you think if you know say Freddie was injured before that game and then all of a sudden the Australian teams out there we're more confident there's you know one of their best players is not playing it's just a different feel so yeah I'd like to think that I could have offered a bit more and who knows so it's just one of those

things like I said would you have fancied it at number 11 on that final morning yeah if we're in the same situation going into that last day. What was it about 100 runs behind? England were going to win that test match comfortably. And then it wasn't, you know, Warnie. Shane Warren played a great innings and then Brett Lee nearly got us home and Casper hung around long enough to, you know, to get us so close. But I guess the only thing I can say in my favour was I'd just come off Lords where I was 10 not out in the first innings and 20 not out in the second inning. So I was in a bit of a purple patch with my batting. You never know. They added 59, Brett Lee and Michael Kasprovich.

Michael Kaspurich, 20 from 31 balls. Now, I'd forgotten that his part in that stand was that significant. Yeah, no, you're saying it now, same. You know, I thought Casper was there and Brett was playing all the shots, but, you know, he's pretty handy. You know, Casper, when he, you know, 20 runs in that partnership, really for when the pressure's on, fourth innings. And England were bowling well, balls reversing.

It's a good pace. Yeah, that's an incredible effort. So, yeah, if we're in the same situation and I came in a bat, maybe we would have lost by more. But you take your bat in very seriously. Well, I did back then, or I tried to at least, because the next test, I had to go out and bat with Brett Lee to save the match, and we got over the line.

So it, yeah, but at the end of the day, I didn't really have a technique to fall back on. I never had any coaching with my batting when I was younger. And it was more luck than anything else, I think. It strikes me, the sort of person you are. Even walking out number 11 with 59 to win, you still would have fancied it. I don't know if I wouldn't have fancied it. I wouldn't have given up.

And yeah, when you've got guys in the team like Warnie whose attitude is we can win from any situation, never give up. And I was very much the same. I thought, no matter what situation we're in, we're still a chance until this game's over. until the last ball is bowled or the last run is scored, we're still a chance. And that was our attitude, and it was a great era to play. And it's funny, like even at Manchester, I was a bit nervous sitting there watching when we were eight wickets down. As soon as that ninth wicket fell, the nerves just disappeared.

I had no nerves. I went out, and I guess all of a sudden you've got something that you can focus your energy on rather than sitting there not having any control. So it, yeah, to think I would have put a point. partnership on in that respect of 60 runs. Yeah, that might be asking a little bit though, a bit too much. How did you feel? Test match lost, your

ankle, injured, not sure what your participation in the series is going to be. How did you feel personally? Yeah, I was pretty, felt pretty flat. I was proud of the Aussies. Yeah, they fought back. We didn't, you know, we didn't just, you know, Wilter on the last

day and lose that test by 80-90 runs. Fought right down to the wire. And nearly got across it was so close and thinking back now if we'd if we'd got those last three runs that test would have been it would have killed the series there and then Australia would have went on to win that series wouldn't have been an issue uh England's confidence would have been shattered you know to lose a second test match in a row when they should have won it and somehow Australia hung on that would have had a big negative impact on them but the opposite

happened they they got a wicket there and you know I was sitting um and yeah the only issue who was just sitting there not being able to to help my team out that was the tough part for me you've touched on it you were maybe waking up in the middle of the night to ice your ankle I think it was four or five days four days I think between the Sunday of the edge baston test and the first day of the test match at Old Trafford so what were you doing was it literally ice every 20 minutes half an hour was there anything else that was going on for you to you to get fit. I think that's that's the way you do it in the first 48 hours and it was just about focusing on what I had to do next and yeah after that period of icing then it's about you know getting in

there and and sort of breaking up the any scar tissue that's forming allow the body to to heal itself and yeah then you start sort of hot and cold and flushing the system out down there and yeah we just did everything we could even through the night like I said just making sure that we didn't we left no stone on turn. So what were you doing in the middle of the night? Oh, just, yeah, again, a little bit of ice, a bit of treatment, just so it didn't sort of stiffen up through the night. Was that on your own or was that treatment? Oh, the physio as well, so Errol was coming in as well. So you're setting his alarm in the middle of the night, just getting in there and sort of, you know, not allowing the tissue to scar up as much,

or to settle and, yeah, just break it up, keep it sort of working. Was there anyone else, apart from you and Errol, who thought you might be playing in that test month? Yeah, I'm not really sure what we're thinking at that time. I think everyone was focusing on their own game and what they needed to do to prepare and a lot of the, a lot of partners were on tour as well. My wife at the time, Jane, was English, so she was over for that tour and, you know, she was up in Manchester as well. So I just have very vague recollections of, okay, this is treatment and that's all we did. And next, you know, here we are, we're preparing for the next test match and into it we go. At what point?

Do you wander over to Ricky Ponton and say, I'm good to go here? I think that was probably more the morning of the game. A few days out, two or three days out, I was still struggling to walk. I was just starting to feel a bit more better. Probably two days out, I could walk on it and feel, oh, it doesn't feel too bad, but I couldn't really run. Then the next day we went over to menu, like I said, in training, and all of a sudden I can run a bit more on it.

Actually, it feels a lot better. And then the morning of the game, I could actually run in and bowl in training without any issues. And fair enough, my ankle was taped up. And so in that case, I thought, yep, I'm fine to go. And I guess the selectors, the coach, the captain and my teammates had faith in me that if I started the match, I'd get through it. You talked before about maybe that aura that you had and the boost that would have given England when you didn't play at edgebust. I wonder what they thought when they saw you line up at Old Trafford

Is the reverse true? Oh no, he's fit I thought he was gone Yeah so maybe they thought Oh he's fit but how fit is he Let's wait and see But I think also England were riding A bit of a wave of confidence as well

Because they had been playing well Leading into that series And that first test at Lords They played well But sort of we bounced back And sort of put an end to it And won convincingly but then they played well in outplayed us in the second test so they would have still been

confident but the fact that i'd sort of made you know came back into the team they probably would have been a little bit watchful but it was more about okay how fit really easy enough it were you i thought i was fine you know i don't know what percentage i would say a few people would say that i was a little underdone but um i felt that i was i was bowling okay i don't think i picked up too many wickets in the first inning so you were not Nort for 86 and 5 for 115. Yeah, so I had a catch dropped and wicked on a no ball in the first inning. It's Michael Vaughn, wasn't it?

Went on to make 100. Yeah, so had Vaughney dropped, Adam Gilchrist dropped him, tough catch high to his right, and then next ball, bould, stump, catapoled out of the ground, and no ball. So, yeah, I've got no one else to blame for that respect, in that respect. But it was all these, just a few of these little things. had crept in. I think Mark Kasparvich had already also taken a wicket on a no ball at Edgebaston, which, you know, so all these little things started creeping in, unfortunately. And, yeah, so not the best figures in that first, first inning. So maybe, you know, I definitely

wasn't 100%. But I felt I was, I was good enough. And, you know, Fife in the second innings was fine, but there were, you know, England were looking to increase the scoring. And a couple of Those were wickets caught on the boundary more so. And, yeah, so I thought I bowled okay, but compared to lords, yeah, probably not quite the same bowler. Does it come back to, is a fast bowler ever 100%? I played majority of my career 95% fit or fitter. And, you know, a lot of bowlers may not be able to say that.

But I was very lucky I had an action that wasn't as stressful as other bowlers. I worked hard off the field to stay fit and strong. I recovered as well as I could. So all those things probably help me in good stead most of my career. But, yeah, for the team, you'd run through a brick wall without even thinking twice. Not quite at 95% at Old Trafford. I don't know. Probably, yeah, I wouldn't thought so.

Probably more maybe 80, 85. But still survive those nine balls. Yeah, so that was just one of those things. It went out there and you just try to do your best. and that last over going into facing Steve Harmeson I think I must have faced three or four balls and the third or fourth ball I got off strike just put a little push to mid on

and a single and yeah there was quite a big feeling of relief I knew my part in this game was finished now it was up to Brett Lee to get through these last two balls which he did and it was very rare for the Australian team to actually save a match we are the one or lost very rarely did we actually save one And, you know, I think our boys were celebrating that we saved that match. They were probably mind a miracle that I was out there batting when we actually saved it.

And if England went up to 2-1 in that situation, it's a long way back from there to win that series. At what point did you know you were struggling for Trent Bridge? I know it was a different injury. When did that occur? Yeah, I think it was, I don't know if it was the afternoon before the morning in the match. I just, I couldn't bowl. My elbow was that bad that I physically couldn't bowl because of the pain I was. in. And it came from nowhere. I don't know where it came from. I don't know where it went to

because a couple of days later, I was fine. But it was just that morning match. I could not bowl. So I'm not sure if someone over here had a voodoo doll and they were sticking needles in me, but I have no idea what happened. But I just, I couldn't play and I was out of Tremperage. And at that stage, Jason Gillespie had been targeted by, you know, Freddie and K.P. and the boys that every time he bowled, they just went at him hard. They came at him down the crease, they'd try to, and try to hit him out of the attack, out of the attack, so to unsettle him, which would put more pressure on the other bowlers. So unfortunately, Jason Gillespie wasn't playing that fourth match.

His confidence had dropped a bit. So, you know, Michael Casper was in and Sean Tate. And, you know, Sean Tate can, he can bowl good pace and a tough bowler to handle. So those guys come in. and our team from the first test match who had played well had lost their two main fast bowlers but what are you going through

sort of personally knowing that you've missed Edgebaston and then to get you know you've worked so hard to get back to play at Old Trafford treatment through the night visits from the physio all night

and now you're out again yeah yeah it wasn't I wasn't sitting there woe as me sort of thing because yeah that's not going to be useful to anyone so I just try to do what I could for the team

and again back with a physio he's trying to sort me out and work out what the problem is firstly and how to treat it and so yeah against sitting there watching knowing that I can't take part or help my teammates out at all

that was the tough part of it particularly as well on that last afternoon when England have got a low chase targets 129 you talk about the attack and it was Lee Kasparovich Tate

and worn. On that last afternoon, Kasparvich, two overs, no wicket for 19. Tate, four overs, no wicket for 24. Most of the bowling done by Brett Lee and Shane Warren

to pretty devastating effect. But are you thinking I could be out there, I could be making a difference here? Oh, without a doubt. I always felt that I could make a difference in any situation and a positive difference for my team.

But yeah, the way Brett Lee bowled and especially warning, Shane loved bowling in England and he thought the game was never done even after that test match and years after he always said if we had 20 more runs in that match we would have won he backed himself to get those last few wickets

and England held on enough to get the runs and another incredible finish in that test match so three tests in a row right down of the wire and yeah and just the way the fans I think there was 19,000 people turned away from the gate. And that was unheard of. I'd never seen that before over here where, and talking to people in the street just said, I don't really watch that much cricket, but I just cannot miss a ball.

I'm just loving it that much. And the impact or positive impact it had for cricket and especially test cricket in England was phenomenal. And even back home, the positive impact it had with, you know, viewing audio and the way people felt about it was huge. You're listening to the TMS podcast. from BBC Radio 5 Live. There's more from Glenn soon when we'll hear how after battling back against all the odds to play in the Old Trafford test,

he faced another race against time to take part in the series decider at the Oval. That's after this. Match of the Day, Top Ten Podcasts. The Match of the Day Top Ten podcast is back with bigger debates, bigger topics, a bigger laughs from this man. Yes, Micah Richards is back,

along with myself and Alan Shearer for Series 8 of Match of the Day Top 10 Only on the BBC Eye Player and BBC Sounds Where if you subscribe now, you'll find the rest of our box sets to listen to The Match of the Day Top 10 podcast Listen only on BBC Sounds This is the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live How quickly after you were ruled out of the Trent Bridge test did you know that actually I can get this right and I can play at the Oval?

I think I bowled a little bit in the Nets through that game towards the end of it and it felt fine there was no issue. So I guess I had no issue with my ankle, it was fine. So I think probably midway through that test I thought, you know, I'll be fine for the Oval. I suppose at 2.1 down. Yeah. I mean, it would have had to take something unbelievably severe to keep you off the pitch for that Oval Test much.

Yeah. So I was keen to play. and help the team win this last test match and, yeah, retain the ashes. And even going into that last day, England had played well. They were playing confidently. But that last day, we still thought we were a chance to win the game. I picked up early wickets, so I got Michael Vaughan out, caught behind. And then Ian Bell, Nick the first ball, I think it might have been to either Warnie or Mark Waugh in the slips.

And all of a sudden the pressure is back on England. They don't have a huge lead at that time. And then Kevin Peterson comes out and Brett Lee bowls a sort of full wide delivery and KB Nick edges it straight to Shane Warren and Warnie had great hands and he would have taken that catch 99 times out of 100 but it hit his hands, bounced up over his head

and fell safely and KP was on zero. So all these little things crept in went against us but because England had been playing well and they're playing confidently, it went in their favour and KP went on, I think he got a big 100 and basically sealed our fate in that last day. Maybe you've never reflected on this. Maybe you reflected as soon as the series ended.

The two test matches that England won you didn't play in because of injuries, something beyond your control. Yeah. Have you thought about that? Did you? How did you deal with it? Well, you know, it is what it is. I've never been someone to deal with what if.

I'd try to deal with what is. And, you know, that's where it went. I like to think that I could have made a difference but I'm not arrogant enough to say yep if I played we would have won that series because we may not have the result may have been the same so England were playing well

it was the first time that they really challenged the Australian team and some of our batsmen had never been challenged before like that they were playing incredibly well their bowling attack was sensational so yeah I think after that match I remember walking off the Oval and, you know, Shane and myself were arm-in-arm waving to the crowd

because this was the last time we were going to play international cricket in the UK. And so it was a bit of, I guess, a bit of sweet moment walking off at the end. I can sit here now and say England were the better team that series, and they probably deserve to win. And, you know, if a team can play better at it better than us and beat us, then I can live with that. So, yeah, it was tough not playing. sitting there watching those two tests and not playing. But, yeah, it was one of those things.

And that was actually going to be sort of my next question. You're 35 in 2005. You say you're walking off the Oval Arm and Arm with Shane Warren because you know you're not going to play in the UK again. Did you think you'd play another rushes test? We were already thinking of 0607? I know. I was still very focused on what I wanted to achieve

out of cricket individually. And even in 0607, I was still very focused. but we were keen to get the ashes back and so I think after that series we'd come home and we probably started to prepare even better we started to get very specific about our bowling batting plans very more about individual playing against the individual rather than sort of a team bowling plan or a team batting plan

to a certain guy so we'd be we sort of learned from that and got a bit more hunger whereas I think England had you know that was their Everest that's what they had planned for to beat Australia in the ashes and regain the ashes and they did that they achieved that

and then after that I don't think they were the same team they came there in in 0607 that first ball that Harmes and Bowls in the series went straight to Andrew Flintoff and Freddie tells the story

where he's just wanting the ball to come to him first ball please come to me but he didn't expect it to come straight to him without going to via the batsman. So, yeah, sitting here thinking now, it's probably easy to say, well, that series was over that first ball. They were a different team.

But they fought hard in that second test and, you know, Shane boldest to victory. But I guess I played well in that first test. I picked up six for, came home, still very focused. And it was probably during between the first and the second test where I just, I remember going to bed one night, still very focused on what I wanted to achieve, which was the 1,000 international wickets in 10.

one days and now T-20s and I woke up the next morning it just wasn't important anymore and it was like a light bulb moment it was just bang I knew yep it's time for me to hang the boots up just going back to that sort of 18 months between 2005

and the start of 0607 I guess from a personal point of view from you having missed two test matches and also the collective as the team was there any sort of moping or was it straight onto do, right, this is what we've got to do to get the ashes back. I think it was more, this is what we need to do to get the ashes back.

And, you know, there was plenty of motivation in itself. But to see England celebrating, they'd all been presented with MBEs or whatever they got. Yeah, there was enough motivation there. How did that feel? Well, I guess it depends which way you want to look at it. You know, they'd beat in Australia and they just got all this recognition award. So I guess that speaks pretty highly of the Australian team is one way to look at it. think oh we beat them so we must you know all of a sudden they've been presented to all these

things and what did you make of parades into trafalgar square oh no well you know good luck to them we we had a few of those after world cup wins and big big wins like that so yeah i don't begrudge them anything that was what they'd worked towards and they achieved it so fair enough to them enjoy in 2005 if i'd said to you in 18 years time australia would still be waiting for another Series win in England, or even going back to 2001, the series that you were part of when winning Australia last won the ashes in this country. What would you have said if I said in 2023? This is like a whole generation of fantastic Australian cricketers have not won here

after you'd know nothing but winning here up to 2005. What would you have said? I don't know, to be honest. I knew it was sort of coming towards the end of an era. myself and Shane were never going to tour England again and quite a few of the team were getting a little bit long in the tooth though into their 30s so another four years you're going to be late 30s so it was going to be a totally different team and it's hard to speak on you know how they would have been they would have played and it's to win away is always tough teams these days because there's so much cricket it's getting even tougher sometimes because there's less preparation less time to adjust or adapt to the conditions of a certain country that you're not used to. So you go into the first test under Darn. The local team should get a bit of a bonus.

If they get off to a good win, the series is over basically. So, yeah, I didn't give much thought sitting here thinking now, don't know what I'd think. Because like you said, we'd only ever known success and winning the ashes and didn't even consider there was a chance we would lose it. Sitting here now, thinking the last series, Australia won over here was 2001. It's a long time. I know last series, it was a draw, but that's still not a win. Because I grew up in the 90s. I saw England get smashed every four years or every two years,

depending on which way you look at the Ashes cycle. Just one Ashes series win from my point of view as a young England fan seemed miles away. and yet for England to have done so well at home and also had that win 10-11 that they were the last team to win the ashes away is absolutely remarkable and like I say there's been certain cricketers you know Michael Clark

Brad Haddon other very very good Mitchell Johnson and Shane Watson they've all come here very very good test cricketers never won an Asher series away from moment I mean that to me is absolutely remarkable when your generation knew nothing but

Yeah, I guess that's, well, that's what it's like. You look at the different areas that have done well, the West Indies of the late 70s, early 80s. You know, that was an incredible era. The 48 side for Australia, another sort of incredible era. So when you, I look at some teams and you lose one or two of their senior players or their big players, it has such a big impact on the team. You know, the Australian team after 0607, or including 0607 after the,

that lost seven senior players in two years. That's well over half the team. And, you know, the young guys coming in. Some of them are, you know, a great players. But it takes a while to get, get in the, you know, in that whether they're the same strong unit that, you know, the Australian team was when I was lucky enough to play. But it was, you know, to come into a team when they're senior,

established senior players to learn from is huge. And to lose seven of those. senior players in that space of time, I think Australia did incredibly well to, and Ricky Ponting did an amazing job to hold that team together. But whether it was a stronger unit, but the other thing too, you spoke about it earlier, is aura. And that Australian team had an aura. Teams were probably beaten before they even walked on the field against us. You take all those senior players out you also lose that aura and then teams have a different feel the mental edge the mental side of the game is totally different going into play australia last ward on this you've sort of alluded

to it anyway because i think you're quite a modest man hand on heart if you don't tread on that ball which way does that after a series go well again who knows i'm not going to sit here and say oh we would have won it may have been exactly the same so but for me i love playing cricket in England. You know, the conditions over here suited my bowling down at the ground. Bowling with the Duke cricket ball is something I loved. It felt small in the hand, the big seam, and it just was perfect. We, you know, test matches I played in England. I averaged over six wickets to test with the Duke ball. We used the Duke in the West Indies one time. I took 30 wickets in those four games. And for county cricket, I think I

averaged about six wickets to test theirs. So I think bowling in English conditions, with the Duke ball was as good as it gets and I absolutely loved it so yeah I'd like to think I would have had a positive impact on the team and the boys but yeah

who knows what would have happened I guess we'll never know despite the injuries do you look back on that series because of how the series was and how it played out and because ultimately you know you regain the ashes before you retired

how do you look back on it with fondness or is it bittersweet or yeah it's sort of bitter sweet I guess with everything that happened with injuries and what have you, but the impact it had for the game itself, I thought, was brilliant. I look at cricket now, and test cricket to me is still the ultimate. I know T20's coming in, and it's taking the world by storm,

but I hope the players and the fans still hold test cricket in high regard. And the way that happens is to have series like they did in 2005, where games have played in the right spirit, they've played hard out in the middle, and right down of the wire. So, you know, this series coming up now, I actually like the way England are playing. They're playing positive cricket. They're backing themselves. And I've always said, I love watching sports people go out and perform without fear.

And when you play without fear, it's amazing what you can achieve. So, yeah, I hope the way England, you know, basball, whatever they want to call it, whether it's Stokes or whether it's, you know, Ben Stokes or, you know, Brent McCollum or just the whole team buy-in. I hope other teams will take a leaf out of that book because we need to look after Test Cricket. We need people coming to the game, watching it, enjoying it. And 05 definitely did that for the fans.

They absolutely loved it. It kept people coming to the game and kept test cricket held in high regard where I think it belongs. I am asking everyone for a prediction. I'm not doing it just because it's you. So what's yours? Well, like I said, I've been really impressed with the way England have played. They're playing quality cricket.

I think they've chased down 300 plus in the fourth innings at least three times and did it comfortably. And that's nearly unheard of. They're playing without fear, playing without pressure. But this Australian team's different. So, yeah, it's going to be an incredible contest. Australia's got a great bowling attack. They've got quality batsmen. you know, Smith, Labashane, you know, Travis Head's been playing incredibly well,

Usman Guadja, Cameron Green, I'm a big fan of both with bat and ball, and for a guy who's that big, he's incredible in the field. So this is going to be a different team that this England team haven't come up against recently. So that first test is going to be very important for both teams. I think every test is going to be exciting, come down to the wire with Australia just winning every game. So my prediction is still the same. 5-0. This is the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

That was Glenn McGraar. He'll be part of our team on radio and TV this summer, and you can read much more on the BBC Sport website and app. We'll be back with another episode of From the Ashes on the Test Match special podcast next week. Sail Enders, much more than just a cricket podcast. Loosely cricket-based, meaning we very rarely talk about World cricket

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