Test Match Special - From The Ashes: Michael Vaughan

Episode Date: October 28, 2025

The BBC’s Chief Cricket Reporter Stephan Shemilt speaks to Michael Vaughan about the 2002/03 Ashes in Australia, and how that prepared him for the infamous 2005 Ashes series.Vaughan talks about what was behind his incredible form down under in 02/03, learning from Australia legend Steve Waugh before becoming England captain, and some incredible stories away from pitch during the series.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. To embrace the impossible requires a vehicle that pushes what's possible. Defender 110 boasts a towing capacity of 3,500 kilograms, a weighting depth of 900 millimetres and a roof load up to 300 kilograms. Learn more at landrover.ca. Hello, I'm Stefan Shemelt and welcome to From the Ashton. a series of test match special podcasts with those who've seen, played

and lived some incredible Ashes moments. Here's Broad comes in, bowls, carries, and she's out. And Stuart Broad takes the final wicket in a dream finale. Broad comes in and bowls to Agar. Agar swings the short ball away. He could be caught. He's out.

He's caught in the deep. He's out for 98. A wonderful. DeBoo comes to an end. In goes bickle dashing up and bowls outside the off-tub. He laces it through the offside. He won't go for four. It'll certainly go for one.

That's all that Michael Vaughn wants. He goes back for the second. He's got his helmet off. His bat is raised. And Michael Vaughn scores his first century against Australia. Harris bustles in bowls to him. Oh, he's caught behind. It's wide.

He flashed at it and he's walked. The umpire didn't give him out. He walked off. Ah, that's a big wicket. My word. Michael Vaughn is the England captain who delivered the longed-for triumph in the greatest series of all time. He will always be synonymous with the glory of 2005. For Vaughn, personal success against Australia first came almost three years earlier on the 2002-2003 tour Down Under.

England lost 4-1 to Steve Wars Australians, arguably the best team to ever play test cricket. but Vaughn made 300s and piled up 633 runs, learning along the way how he could win back the Ashes. I went to meet him at his home in Cheshire to find out how 2002-2003 shaped what would come in 2005. This is From the Ashes, Michael Vaughan. Michael, the series From The Ashes is about

players who've got prominent ashes stories and how the ashes has impacted their life and what they went through you more than anyone were sitting in your house now would this all of this exist without the ashes is the impact that it's had on your life that's it

who knows where my life would have gone if it or not had success in I guess two ashes series but I was like most young kids playing the game watching and listening to so many Ashes series, you know, looking back at 8-2-1

and listening to Test Match Special, you know, 86, 87, you know, early in the morning when I should have been going to school, I wanted to listen, trying to take a radio to school to see what the score was. And, you know, there wasn't any phones in those days where you could just have a look at X to find out what the score was. But the dreams of playing cricket are wanting, And the dream of representing new countries and other.

But to play in an Ashes series, it's always the pinnacle. And again, I always go back to the 80s. There was that computer game. I can't even remember what it was called. But it was on my spectrum 48K. And I used to always play England versus Australia. You know, we had all the names like Gower in our team. And Australia had the likes of Lillian and Thompson was in that team.

And I used to always think, God, if one day I could just play an Ashes series and just one game. This isn't about 2005 because I think you must have talked about 2005, I don't know, every day of your life since then. But what I did want to ask is, how much of an impact

does that have on your life today still 05? How often do you get asked about it? How often does it come up? I mean, not all the time, and I guess that's why it was so special. I'm allowed to say that now. You know, I think 20 years on And when you still get people in the street,

you know, I've been golfing in Scotland, you know, playing with South Africans, playing with American people. And they talk about 2005. And, you know, I think the biggest strength of 05 is when you get a 30 to 33-year-old who comes up to you and says, you know what, I got into cricket because of 05.

And that's, I guess that's the biggest achievement of that series. Of course, we won and, you know, it was spectacular. But the biggest achievement was to get more people interested in cricket. And I think that's what your job is as a team and as a player. Throughout the time that you play, at the end of it, if you can kind of retire or your team

can kind of say, right, that's it. We're kind of moving on with a new group. If at the moment that you all disperse and you all disappear into the distance, which is pretty much what happens. You know, we just had a few beers with the 05 side just a week or so again. And literally

it's been 20 years that some of us haven't seen each other. You know, I think people think that when you win big series in big moments, I think people think that you meet every Sunday morning and have a brew. It's just not what happens. So, yeah, to think that people got into the game. And that's why I look at this England side now, I think, you know what, whatever happens with them, they can win a big series like the series that we're going

to go to in Australia. They're going to be remembered forever because they're going to play a style of cricket that people like watching. and I do think it's important that you play that style I do think sport is about yet winning you win and at times you win at all costs but if you can win by getting people excited and getting people on the edge of their seats

and getting people talking in the cafe bars about the style of play or the little bit of controversy that you've kind of created or the flambling moments that you've kind of delivered I think you'll always go down and you'll always be remembered The reason I ask about the impact that 2005 has had on your life when we talk about 2002-03, you only played 10 Ashes tests.

And in your first Ashes series in Australia in 2002-03, England lost 4-1. It could have been 5-0 because you're 4-0 down after 4. But you made 633 runs, only two other men this century to go to Australia as a visiting batter have made more than 600 runs in a series. Alistair Cook, Virac Koli. You made 300s, your man of the series. The question is, does 2005 happen without 0203? No, no chance.

No chance. No, I mean, first and foremost, 2-2-3 was just a roller coaster. I'd had a great summer in 2-2 against Sri Lanka and India. I scored quite a few runs and found a little bit of rhythm, found a bit of a movement with my batting. Found a mechanism of thought once I got to 20 and 30 rather than just think

oh that was enough to go on and be a more dominant player. That's just confidence and a bit of experience. But what happened in Australia was very interesting. You've got to remember at the start of 2002, there was no sign I was going to be the captain. I'd captain England on 19s and captain

in A side but there was no real hint really around that time that I was going to be the next England captain. So I wasn't thinking of a leader at all then. But I always look back at Yorkshire actually and we had overseas pros like Greg Blurt, Matthew Elliott, Michael Bevan, and then Darren Lehman arrived. And I always remember Darren Lehman giving me one or two tips as a young player. And it was to be more positive, to be a bit more expansive and don't be scared to take the opposition on. And from the minute he told me that I started to play a bit more expansively, started to hit the ball a bit harder, started to challenge more bowlers with a few more questions rather than just defence.

And I wasn't a bas-baller. I was a player that liked to get in, but once I was in, okay, I can now start to work, how I'm going to score a bit quicker. And that was down to just talking to Darren Lehman. So then to go to Australia in 2002 and three, I just gave myself a thought process as that I wasn't going to allow them just to bowl.

I wanted to challenge them. And someone like Glenn Magrard and Jason Gillespie, Brett Lee, obviously the King, Shane Warren, I kind of realized that if I just sat in I wasn't going to get many and I also realized that if I just sat in I'd probably not send a message back

to the dresser. Remember I'm opening the back at this time with Triscothic and Tres was naturally an aggressive player and I always thought if we could just get off to a decent start it would send a bit of confidence back to the dressing room and just send the message that there's runs out there and if you can get in and you can do the right things you've got a chance.

I mean, ultimately to beat that Australian side in Australia, let's be brutally honest, you ain't going to do it. That's the honest, too. We didn't think like that at the start, but we knew it's a fight, we knew it was a battle and everything would have to have gone our way for us to have competed. But I always look back at that series

and what I learned in that series and I studied Steve War throughout that series. And I didn't realize I was actually doing it. He was Australia Cup at the time. He was a skipper. And I didn't realize I was doing it until I got the England captaincy and once I got the England captain I thought all right what do I do and I thought right I've got to look back on the people that I've been

captain by and I have to look at the captains that I've seen when I've been playing against them and Steve War with a standout and it was just his manner his mechanism is you know I always look back at character cricket in the in the 90s where you play 11 o'clock till 11 15 and there was 104 overs or 110 overs in the day and you get to 1 o'clock and you'd bowl your part-time just to get a few more overs in before lunch so you'd have like 37 to 38 hours in the tank

so you wouldn't have a long afternoon so I'd bowl a few overs, just get through them like really kind of timid stuff just before lunch and every time I watched Steve War was it over before lunch it turned to someone like Brett Leigh and go right ball bounces around the wicket and I used to go oh shit the last thing that batter needed

at that time, you know, particularly you're playing in Adelaide, you just want to get some chicken, you know, plum chicken. You don't want to be facing bounces just before you go and have some chicken. But he would make those periods that I mentioned that I was brought up in, the 15 minutes where, let's be honest, I just want to get off the field, he'd make that period the hardest period. And there was things like that that I stood in, I thought, just little things like walking on the field, you know, I'd walk on the field and say hello to everyone. You know, the opportunity, morning, morning. You'd say hello to Steve, boy, just look at you. it made you feel about three foot tall you but he's not even said hello and then you go out to

bank you're taking your guard and you come in an extra cover and he didn't have to say a lot but he intimidated you with field setting just just small words not not not not not not abuse mental disintegration that's exactly what he delivered all right else when you've got war mcrogue lesbians brett lee but he's tactical now so i don't think has ever been given enough credit for i thought he operated that group and made it very very very difficult And obviously the way that he batted, it was just tough, brilliant batter, but I looked back at that five test match series. And yes, I score runs. So I got belief in myself that, yes, this Australian side of great, but you can get them, you can get out of them. And as to the winning Sydney, we were four and null down, it was going to be a whitewash. And the performance that we gave in Sydney was tremendous. We won the toss, we batted. And the pitch did a bit. And Mark Butcher got a tremendous hundred. And we got a number on the board. And it wasn't a massive number. I think it was 360. And I can't. I kind of look back at that game and thought, well, we got three-sixty, they got pretty much parity. And the second is we went at them because we didn't have anything to lose.

So we went at them and the pitch deteriorated and Caddick got seventh and we bowled them out. We won the game easy. And I remember sitting in the dress room, master, and I was going, you know what, you've just got to do that three times. You've got to produce that performance three times in a five-match series and you win the ashes. And kind of looked around, no one spoke in the dress room, but I thought in the back of my mind, any team can be got if you play good cricket. and you've got to be brave back first against the Aussie Syb because I've got warning not going to win many games by bowling first against warning

so we're going to have to be braver we get to 05 and again I wasn't thinking as a lead at that time in Sydney to banish we were getting in the dress room and we were driving golf carts down the road back into Sydney and got caught by the police John Crawley and co but going down to get the captaincy a year later I just know that that was the kind of series that I kind of learnt so much from me

from the team, from the ability that if you play where you can beat anyone and more so looking at someone like Steve Warren going, yeah, that's the way the captain. Before you were the captain, you were the batter. One of the main reasons you got the captain was because of the runs you scored. Before that summer of 2002, you played 16 tests with 100 of an average of 31. The next 12 test matches against Sri Lanka, India and in Australia, 0203, 12 test matches. 700s at nearly 77. Why?

No idea. But was it something you've done with Duncan Fletcher? Was it the forward press at that time? You just said you changed your attitude and trying to be more aggressive and put bowlers under pressure. But that's a big difference to go from 16 tests at 31 to 12 tests at 70s.

Technical changes, forward press, kind of get myself in a ready position earlier. You know, just before the release of the ball, making sure that I was aligned in a ready position rather than sometimes I'd leave it late and my front foot would kind of just step across just to on and around off stunt, which made me really vulnerable to that ball that knit back. I think the ultimate kind of change was mindset and just belief. And just to accept, you know, what would have been there, 29, 28, 29. You know, just ultimately saying to myself one day, I've got to be better. You know, I've got it back for longer and I've got to get bigger. runs. Did you feel like your career was on

your ringline? I was just, I was always going to be playing, but you know, I think you defined, you know, Neil Fairbrother who's managed me for many years, his great line is, you know, your currency is runs, you know, and that's the best line of any player.

You know, you remember in cricket you're an individual surrounded by a team ethos, you know, but only you can score the runs. No one else can score the runs for you, no one else can bowl for you, you've just got to do it And eventually, you know, when I realized I was decent, I could play a bit. You know, but to get to that next stage, I generally just think it's just a mentality of, right, concentrate.

People always say to me, what's mental toughness? I think the art of concentration, you know, to concentrate for long periods of time is mental toughness. And can you be, it's not can you be bothered, but can you challenge yourself to concentrate for longer period of time? And I look at Joe Rittman, you look at those numbers. He's chosen it for about the last seven or eight years. His powers of concentration are remarkable. And his powers of consistent movements are remarkable. And that's why I look at all these players that do it for a period of time.

It's just the art of concentration, the want inside to be out there for long periods of times to help your team. But there was no, there was a, I was on a pair at Lords, actually, against India. I think Zaya Khan or Ashes Niro got me. me at LBW and I remember sitting in the dressing room going I've had enough of this that ball that knits back's doing my nutting you know I've got to go and change it so I went in the indoor school that day for hours and hours with Nigel stockill the trainer physical trainer and we just set up the ball and machine and I just worked a movement I just drilled this movement trigger trigger do it early trigger was that in the forward press yeah so I went forward and got my back foot

aligned just just ahead of my front foot I thought right I'm just going to do that keep my head over that off stunt and let's just see where it goes in the second innings I try I'm just going to go with that I'm on a pair I've got a quick thing that could have been run out for naught

I think but I got off the play and all of a sudden I started to flow and I thought oh that's quite nice this has given me so much more time you know it's like Duncan Fletcher just do always so when you trigger make sure you get there early you know it's like going for a bus

if you turn up late you're going to miss the bus so make sure if you're going for a bus just get there early because the bus will come to you And it's the same with a batting trigger. If you do it early, the ball's going to come to you. If you do it late, you're knackered. And that's what I did on that occasion.

I got a lovely hundred. And then from there, it just kind of just flew. You know, I felt I had so much time. I had much flow on the front foot, the back foot, that kind of wide base that I ended up with. I didn't have to do a great deal more from there. I could just kind of press forward and play that driver. I could press back and play the cut, the pull shot.

So that was the kind of technical. manoeuvre but it is more there you just get a confidence and a flow well the first 15 runs of any of these are tough doesn't matter what your movements are there's always that vulnerability of the pitch the ball the conditions the situation of the game and you're always vulnerable early but I always felt around that time if I got past 2025 I felt I was going to get a score during that India series you got 100 against Sri Lanka at home in 2002 and you got 300 against India so 400 in the summer is it it right that you spoke to Sashintendulka during the India series for a bit of advice

on how to play in Australia? I did, yeah, I did. And he was great. I mean, he, like I would say now, I mean, it's a great place to go and back. It's just dealing with the noise of this. You've got to remember the Aussiside then. They were powerful. And they had, probably, you could argue, the strongest body language of any sporting team. They had such a presence. You know, you had Matthew Hayden, you had Justin Langer, Ricky Ponting. These are three players that were just in the ranks. Then you've got Steve War, then you've got Shane one,

then you got Glenn McGrath, Jason Gillespie, Adam Gilchrist, Damien Martin, Brett Lee, charging in bowl in 95 miles an hour. So they had an incredibly gifted cricket team skill set-wise, but an incredibly gifted cricket team mentality-wise. Presence.

They knew. And they knew that they could, they could with their body language and presence and their mindset, they could belittle any opponent. And you had to be tough. Is that why he went to satchit? Yeah, I just wanted to know what was it like.

You know, what was it like to face this? You know the skill sets that are going to come. I asked about McGraw. I'd never faced McGraw. And he gave me a couple of points about McGar and just, actually, I think it was just make sure you let the ball, just setting him and make sure you let the ball really come to you against McGar because he'll just bowl that kind of length,

but he will give you opportunities if you're willing to just hang in there. and when the ball gets a bit older and it's not nipping, you can actually get on and drive that length that's such a tricky length with the new ball you just got to try and survive that

and then that length that it boils again with the older ball you can actually climb into it and drive on the up so it's just earning the ride I mean Satching got that I think it was a double century

in Sydney where he didn't drive didn't cover drive didn't cover drive and I think the cover drive in Australia is the best shot in the book but also the worst shot in the book at the wrong time I mean that sounds

completely obvious and the wrong time can be in the first 20 overs in the first innings when there's just a little bit of moisture in the surface Australia will offer that kind of half volley you go chasing it there's always just a little bit of umph in the pitch and that's when the outside edge comes into play in the second innings when the ball's a bit when the pitch is a bit drier that same delivery that you get in the first innings

might be your opportunity to climb into it so it's assessing what the right shots are for the conditions that you're playing and that's just experience and that's just, again, mental toughness. Mental toughness, really working out what's on, what's not, and when it's on, go for it. And if it's on in the first things, of course, go for it. But it might be that the first innings is the innings

where you have to play a little bit of the attritional star for 30 hours, and then you can get stuck in. And in the second in, it might be vice versa, actually, it might be the new ball's the time to really take on the new ball and be ultra-aggressive because there might be a bit of spin, there might be a foot or two, and you think I'll have to get after the new ball. So it's just assessing the conditions.

like most places, but it really is important that, you know, like Satchen did on more than one occasion, he worked out the conditions better than most in Australia. So, yeah, it was always nice to have a conversation with him. So you're going to Australia, you're in the squad, England are getting together. There was a little bit of upheaval in the run-out, in the run-up. Graham Thorpe was named in the squad, then he pulled out. I was looking at the the tour last night, you were there for ages. First game was on the 22nd of October, the first tour match. The last one day I was on the 25th of January. There were four warm-ups before the first test. Imagine Ben Stokes' team doing that now. And you made 100 in the last warm-up against Greenland.

I think I was injured. I think my knees, I mean, I had dodgy knees all my cry. I don't think I played in Perth. Well, in the very first warm-up? Yeah. In the last warm-up before the first test against... Alan Border Oval. Made 100.

But you were there for forever. Yeah, we were in. I mean, I suppose that was the last... Played a load of golf. That was the last old-school Australian tour, I guess. Because I think by 0607, the amount of warm-up games had sort of been cut back, the chopping and changing between formats.

I mean, after the third test, you went off and played some one-dayers. It's just... It just doesn't happen. anymore. I mean, I spoke to Alan Laman Glass and Small about 86, 87, and they, they went through their whole, I think they played seven games before the first test. Oh, time's a different time. But I kind of look back at that and, you know, I remember arriving in Perth and I think we did a gentle fielding session on the Wacker. And honestly, it went great. We did some good run-throughs

and we did some good catch-in and we were great. And honestly, we all kind of went. Yeah, we're up for this. But they positioned a camera. And clearly, when you're fielding for an hour and a half and there's, what, 16, 17 in the squad, there's bound to be one or two go down. And they've positioned a camera and pretty much took a picture

of every single catch that was taken. And then obviously, we all drop one catch each at least. I probably dropped a lot more than that. And next day on the front page of the Perth paper or whatever that's called, England drop into town and pictures of all dropping a ball

I mean that is what you have to expect in Australia again you don't get that anywhere else in the world and you don't get the news channels really harassing you like you do in Australia they will chase the England side and they did back in 2002 through the airports through your hotel

cricket's big news when the ashes is on in the UK but in Australia it's monstrous news you know it really is front and centre of every single news station So I guess you've got to deal with that. You've got to deal with the headlines. I mean, I loved it went broad. He went to Brisbane.

I can't remember. What was that? The courier mail. The courier mail. They wouldn't even mention it, would they? I mean, that's all part of the drama. That's all part of why the ashes is so special. On the subject of Brisbane, 2002, first morning.

Coin goes up. Yeah. says, we'll have a bowl. What had happened? Did you know that was coming? What was the reaction in the dressing room? No, I mean, I, no, we didn't know. I was starting to get my pads on, to be honest.

He must have seen something in the pitch. I mean, there was a few clouds around. I mean, two, I think. But in a funny way, I mean, he's been lambasted for it since, hasn't he? But you can kind of understand it. With the team that we had, you know, I guess the condition was always going to be warm and the pitch was going to crack in and they've got shame worn.

So it was a stupid decision. But in defence of NASA, if we'd have gone four or five down at lunch because there was a hint of moisture and we managed to bowl a map for 250, it was probably on the chance we had of winning the game. You know, that's the truth of the matter. If we'd have batted on that first date against McGarrow and Co, we'd have probably, have been 200 or that anyway. I mean, they were just so good. So I think when you come up against it,

sometimes you've got to accept you come up against the team, it's just better. You know, whichever way you go about your business, you're probably going to lose. But when we get to Sydney and you do it the way of getting runs on the board and you see the pitch deteriorate, you think, yeah, that's the way to play against a good scene.

Well, Simon Jones happened. That day, as he happened, yeah, he went, didn't it? I dropped an absolute goobra at extra cover. I think I'll let one. through my legs at gully to get Justin Langer off the mark we'd had this talk about come on whereas one so when the Aussies come at us we all go together I think Caddick gave Matthew Hayden a few choice words early Hayden dropped him over his head for six and Caddick

went again we were like oh looking around there we all go in and no one went with Caddick so he was left stranded yeah Simon Simon's injure was a yeah that was that was horrific because he he was bowling great I'm not saying that he'd won as the Ashes series but would have competed a lot more

with the Simon Jones for a few test matches but I actually look at the way that we fought in that series we didn't have the skill sets to really beat the Aussie side but I think we fought hard we had one or two

probably Perth we kind of slipped away a bit but the Adelaide Oval Test we fought hard Melbourne we had a bit of a crack we were following on We fought hard there and then obviously we won the last test. So we avoided the whitewash, which was, I wouldn't say,

it wasn't one of the special moments in my career. But yeah, they were a special team. In Brisbane, you know, NASA's done what he's done. You've been heavily beaten. And you've made 33 and naught. Not out that. Shocking decision. But not a sign of a thing's to come necessarily.

In between, you go and play Australia A, England have to follow on against Australia the race. Did we? Almost lose by an innings to the A side. In Hobart? I think it was in Hobart. It's too cold for us. And then in Adelaide, you said you were injured,

you're struggling with your knee. Is it a game you nearly didn't play? Yeah, I was in the match, yeah. It's a second test and maybe even right up to the toss, not sure if you're going to actually play. Morning of the match, yeah, and my knee had just locked. Clearly there was a bit of gristle or floating cartilage and it got like kind of jammed.

Sign of things to come? Jammed in my, yeah. And in my joint, I was like, I can't even run. So anyway, Fletcher would just go in the net, hit some balls. And I said, just strap it up and hit some balls. And I just said, can we have an injection? And at the first time, yeah, you just inject it if you want. And NASA had not even been given the green light from the nets that I was playing.

He was playing. And which I was delighted with, I wanted to play. I'd just like. So when he went out to toss up, was I don't sure if you were? Yeah, and then when the toss, it was boiling. Batting first, which was great. and I hobbled out with Trez

not to be fair we trade you didn't have too many quick singles so that was quite handy yeah and the adrenaline of being out there and the injection and more and more tablets

throughout the day that soon nullified the problem 37 without loss you're on 19 Andy Bickles Bowling wideish one that you drive loops towards

Justin Langer at points he dives forward and he says he's caught it he did and you stand Yeah, he caught it And Steve Buckner, the umpire calls for TV Steve Davis is the TV umpire

Mark Taylor on TV is losing it over That's definitely out, it's commentary And you stand Yeah And it gets given not out Yeah, it was in that era That you just knew you had a chance

And they were always going to take it upstairs He died forward And it kind of bounced around here And on his palm It wasn't on the end of his finger So yeah, probably in the middle of his hand But it was close to the ground and you know with the cameras and you know the way that the kind of cameras operate it was always going to look like that ball would have touched at least one blade of grass yeah i reckon might have just brushed one blade and that's enough it's hit to hit the ground but um when you're in the middle and it's happening the longer it went i know i'm getting away with this and i was laughing to myself because i i knew what was coming i knew i'd get away with it and i knew i'd be absolutely lambasted oh god

completely went in the middle yeah yeah and who was that all of them yeah the whole but Langer took it all day he took it all day which and I can completely understand goes McGrath and Bowles and Vaughn drives another sithing stroke but on the ground this time these sea gulls scatter there at deep backward point as another boundary is recorded and Michael Vaughn goes to 50 it'll be a controversial innings No doubt about that But his reach is 50 from 72 balls Is it 4 4s and 2 6es

And that's out of England's 81 for no wicket You know I really should have been out But you get away with it And it was a typical Adelaide Oval pitch The old kind of pitches were It did a bit for an hour or so And then it just, it was a belter Were you made 177?

Yeah, it was flat So you said you copped it all day Yeah Well you're making this this 177 when you've made that score and what's happened what does it do to you knowing you've not just scored the runs but you've also come through that from the Aussies

taking that all day which is harder, the batting or getting that in your ear I actually quite enjoyed that kind of element of being abused it was making me chuckle inside but you've still got to have that focus and that concentration I'll keep going back to that art of concentration is the key. And, you know, they had Andy Bickle in the team.

Jason and let's be bolded a quick spell. He actually chipped my shoulder, hit my shoulder and I don't know, just after 100, I think. Didn't realize it was chipped. Warnie was just being Warnie. He was chipping away. But Warnie was always great

because if he did well, he was the first to shape my hand when I got 100. You know, all the players when I went in the dress room, it's funny because I went into the dress room and our lads had put the, obviously, the 100 on the board

with the gaffer, tape and then it was five or ten minutes after going to do a bit of press and we had to delay the press because I had to have all this ice on my right knee and then I had all this ice on the right shoulder and be like dad's army and then suddenly the Aussies actually had to come in and shake my hand in the dress room they all did apart from Justin Justin took a couple of years for Justin really to speak to me but that's that that's what what makes kind of the ashes there's always moments in the ashes that every individual player that's played a few Ash's test matches, there'll always be something and the confidence that I felt from, you know,

to score 100 against Australia in Australia as a player, that doesn't get much better. You know, that feeling of, you know, celebrating 100 is always great, but to celebrate with, you know, the Barmy Army on the bank in front of the old scoreboard, it's, yeah, of all the hundreds that I've got in my career, I always say that first one in Adelaide's the most special. bowling to Vaughan who edges and he's caught and slipped by Warren Vaughan's innings comes to a sad end right at the end of the opening day and Australia so characteristically striking back

when it really looked as though England would finish the day in a dominant position Vaughan is out caught warn bold Bickle 177 you lose a test and you lose in Perth and the ashes are gone as we've touched on the series then pauses you go off to play one day as for a month at which point Shane worn dislocates his shoulder he's out of the last two test matches so then you're pitching up at the MCG for the boxing day test ashes are gone

but there's still two test matches to play I guess from your point of view that you know you said that's that you know one of the best hundreds that you made or you look at that one but you're still in a team that has lost three test matches and in three test matches you've made 100 okay that's okay but in the boxing day test you make $145 in the second innings so all of a sudden you're going from having an OK series

to now standing out what's that doing for you as a cricketer and as your mindset? I just remember that game they made his follow on you know Steve Or generally used to do that and he made us follow on

and we could have won that game just needed another 60 or 70 runs I think we'd have won the game because they only ended up chasing about what 100 in the second innings? Yeah we had him just three I think Steve War might have been caught behind we didn't appear it was a massive nick

we were starting to play better cricket I think sometimes in Australia and particularly against that side it takes probably two or three games to realise you are up against human beings I think at the start of that series you look at them like they are robots like aliens like they're just too good

and the more you play against them the more you realise if you bowl your best balls you've got a chance but their ability was to make you not bowl your best balls because they used to hit you off your length and they used to intimidate so you'd panic and you'd chase and you'd start doing a few things

that necessarily would allow them to score a bit quicker but the more that you'd play against that side and the more that I play against them I completely understood that they were quality but if you did your basics really, really well you had a chance and that's what happened in the second inning's in Melbourne

the pitch was pretty good and Stuart McGill was playing we managed to score a few and managed to hit them around a bit I think it was around the time the MCG was only I think there was one massive stand that was being renovated

so there's a massive void like a load of builders so I remember scoring 100 there and looking around to see where I was celebrating and waving my back I kind of lost my and I just saw a load of builders so I waved my back to these builders

they got a bit of a nod but you know I think I always remember that that tour for our fans actually you know there was this group the Barmy army were always very prominent but it was around that time that they they traveled in numbers and the MCG that I don't think it was Bay 13 because I think it was Bay 13 that I'd been knocked down but we just had this

massive section for the whole whole whole week in Melbourne and there must have been it must have been three or four thousand and they just were so vocal so noisy and you thought if you could just give them something and I guess that something came with a little bit of hope in Melbourne and then a fantastic performance in Sydney which leads then to everything that we achieved in 2005, but it was more the fact that I kept on looking at this England group of supporting, Cracky, if we could do something with this kind of, this team that we had and the younger players that were coming through, there's something special that could be

around the corner. Just before you talk about that Sydney game, what about the way that you batted? Because often you were pulling balls off lengths that weren't necessarily that short, particularly off McGraw, who was so metronomic in his own. length, then what that does is gets the ballers to correct their length and the ball too full and you can drive. Was that conscious? Yeah, but the

bounce is so true in Australia. Well, one of the things I remember of you playing in that series or when you're batting at your best, is that one-legged pull shot, the swivel pull. Yeah, again, it's the trust in the bounce. You know, if you can you look at a spot

on the wicket and I used to always look at the spots and think, right, if it's around there's a chance I can take that on. You know, anything shorter than that it's going to get too high and it could be dangerous you know but it's just that and the pitches are they're not as quick as people think

even the wacker when they saw oh you know it's rapidly it's not that quick it's just it's just the aura and it's it's the doctor the Fremantle doctor that comes in at the wacker that's used to put players off and have completely understood that but if you can trust the balance

you can take it on I actually didn't I mean the first test in Brisbane I played a couple of pull shots against McGraw after that I didn't do many you know because I think he started to pitch it up a little bit more which I found it a lot harder the actual full length delivery

which was my danger ball that in between length I felt I could pretty much score on both sides of the wicket but it wasn't it wasn't anything that I planned for you know I think people thought oh I went to Australia I was going to play the

push I was going to play the driver it just happened naturally and that's why I always say you know anyone that said oh you know how'd you back in Australia I said, just bat and just instinctively react. And if you instinctively react and you've got a few options up your sleeve, I think you'll be very, very successful.

Because as I keep saying, the pitches generally are the purest. Ball gets softer, probably quicker than most countries. And you've just got to trust your mentality. That's all it is. It's the fight of mentality and the, it's the fight of how big and ashes series is that sometimes lets people down. England are improving as the series goes on. probably. Certainly, score line doesn't reflect it, you're 4-0 down, but you're not playing

horrific cricket. There's an argument to say that this team is improving as the tour goes on, but you could have lost 5-0. You could have lost 5-0. But second innings at Sydney, we touched on it before, sort of parity after first innings, you make 183 in the second innings. Andy Caddick 7 in the second innings on a pitch that started to go up and down, sort of pitch that suits him as a scene bowler who takes 10 in the match and there's the celebrations after that the famous pitch of you all with the flagrant

he didn't that was his last test match 10 for and gone yeah crikey it's a bit arsh in it but I mean what about that as a celebration to have won a test one test match I reckon if

I mean if you if you if you kind of just pop down you're not seeing the whole series and then you saw our celebrations in front of the fans in Sydney. You thought he won the ashes. You thought it would have won 5-0. Oh, we give it big licks.

And what was the night like? Great. I think the Prime Minister, John Howard, came in. I think it was John Howard around the time. He came in the dresser rooms, and we were in our dress rooms. The dress room attendant Rocky, the old Rocky guy. He's an amazing guy. He used to write motivational messages on the dress room every morning.

The guy that drove the Gatorade buggy out. And it was the Gatorade bugger that we took out the SCG. to try and get back. Me, John Crawley, Mark Butch. I think Kesey was on that. Well, we needed to get home. There's no taxi. No, Uber back in those days.

So we decided that, look, Phil Neal, the manager, the team bused that had gone. It's a decent journey from the SCD. Yeah, we didn't realize that. We only managed to get to the traffic lights just down the road. And then the police pulled it in and said,

lads, just take it back. So we took it back. But sitting in the dress room with the Aussies was great. You know, because it... Was that the first time that you'd have that? We weren't allowed. You know, NASA made it very clear that he didn't want us to socialise with Australia. But at the end of the series, you're always going to do that.

And it was just nice to sit around with the lights of Hayden Langer. Actually started to speak to Justin, which was great. Ricky Ponting and all these legends. Where you talk about them being human? Yeah. Is that where you break that down? Yeah, I like, look, people do things differently. My belief is when you're up against a human being that you don't know,

particularly when that human being's exceptional the best way to find out about them is to get to know them and you generally always find out that they're just normal people that just play cricket very well and they're very tough in terms of what they deliver but we had a great crack

great fun in the dressing room and that's for me what playing in Ashes series is all about you have to have those moments you have to have those times where you play you lose you win you draw whatever it may be but most England sides and most friendships

that move on from when you finish, if you look at Ian Botham, Ian Botham's mates are all Australians. Most of my mates in cricket, as much as they're English, are Australian. And I hope that's still the care. I guess it's probably different now with the franchise world

and they all get friendships with many of the players around the world, but I think there's an ultimate respect in Ashes. I think both sides. I mean, I don't think either side ever admit it, but the pressure that you're under. I mean, the others have never really admitted.

But only you two know what each other's going through. A few people who know what's... But I think the Aussies generally high. They never say, oh, you know, the ashes are tough. They can say, ah, no, it's just another game of cricket. Well, it's not. And it's not. And I've seen that since then.

You know, in 2005, in 2009, just watching 10 and 11, when obviously Andrew Strauss's side did the damage down there. You can see now, and I think in more recent times, Australia have realised that, you know, know, it's tough. It's not as easy as potentially that 90s side made it look. After Sydney, within a few months, your captain, you were man of the series in that series in Australia.

You were number one battering the world for a period. Then you became captain. Straight away are you thinking, 2005? And in that period between 2003 taking over from NASA and either the first test match in 2005 or getting your hands on the urn, how much does that dominate your life? Is it almost every waking moment?

No, it didn't, no, it wasn't two years of waking up every morning and go, no, I've got to beat Australia. Because the only way you beat Australia, if you win games before, you can't suddenly arrive in a Nashy series to play against that side and, you know, not beat South Africa, not beat the West Indies at home, don't beat New Zealand, don't beat the West Indies away. You've got to win.

So you have to find a formula and a mechanism of how to win. But over the two years, it became very obvious. that we were going to have a fresher team, a younger team, a more, not a more dynamic team, that's the wrong word, but a team that had no baggage or very little baggage. I think what was very clear to me in 2002, three, and understandably, is that once we'd lost the first test

and then you lose the second test, it's like, oh, it's like, here we go again. Because a lot of those players have been around the England side in the 90s, as great a group of humans that we used, you know could ever have wished to have playing for England there were great people that had so much bad experience of playing Australia that

that's natural to think negative when you get into that kind of negative zone once again so we just needed a fresh set of minds and you know you needed bowlers to get 20 wickets that was the key when you got your hands on the urn at the oval or I don't know in the days afterwards and there's probably not a lot of thinking that had gone on in the days afterwards given what you got up to after that, at what point around about that time did you know, I'm not sure life's going to be the same again?

You never know to what extent. You know, I think the majority of us have been able to, you know, we have normal lives. I mean, we don't have extravagant lives. I guess Freddie's become household name for, obviously, 05, but for what he's achieved on television after. Kevin Peterson is, you know, globally a super. star and you know there's there's many others that have done really well in the game but

it's I don't know it's it's always funny that that moment when you win is is is the best moment but also quite deflating because you're like oh it's over now yeah all the stress and the pressure was hard to deal with but you know the the kind of adrenaline that you get from being in a series like that and then suddenly it's done it's over you're like oh gosh what's next and I always say this and you know O5 was was, they always talk about climbing the mountain, don't they, getting to the top of Everest. And for that team, I think that was our, that was our pinniquary.

Well, you didn't even, that 11 didn't even finish the series, really. No, it just felt like, even though it was a short journey, but there was a lot of people's bodies that weren't right. And I never felt with that group that we were going to have like a seven to eight year period together. It always felt like a bit of a, even though we're quite young, it felt like a little bit of a stop gap that we were just, around for that period and we had to try and maximise it well even for you you only played two more test matches in the next two years yeah my name five yeah and you didn't get

the opportunity to defend the earnest captain in 0607 i mean when did you know 0607 wouldn't happen for you oh really my knees were knackered i had this uh micro fracture surgery which is where they drill into the the bone create a bleeding which creates a scab um so i knew pretty much much. I actually knew in 05, I was knackered. I was having injections pretty much every of the week in 05. But how did it feel not to be able to go and try and defend the urn in 06? Because you were there weren't you? It was quite nice actually. Got absolutely hammered. And would have been hammered with me, by the way. It's not not, no, the Australian side. I mean, it's always like we'd poke the bear. Was it tough to watch?

Yeah, yeah, because a lot of my mates were playing and it wasn't easy. And I think there's a lot things that went on and the Australians, they wanted revenge. You know, they had legends that were going to say farewell and, you know, once you're beating them once, they're not going to allow you to beat them twice, particularly in their own backyard. And that's why I always felt that that side that we delivered from 2.3 to 2.5, we were very much geared towards English conditions, the way that we played. You know, the jute ball, getting it swinging around, using a holding spinner having players

that could take on the kind of aggressive option at the right time we tried to score quickly that was our game away from home where you had to be

a bit more attritional and you know spin came into the equation and you know your quick bowlers over a five match series overseas we didn't have enough

in the tank to rotate you know wasn't many weight in the wings so I did feel that that side that we had was very very much a kind of English conditions Even though we had pace, we had bounce,

I did feel that it was more an English-style kind of team that we put together. But you tried to get another go at them in 2009. You resigned as captain in 2008. You'd come back, got Graham Smith, as a lot of England captains do. Yeah. And you tried to get back for 09. You tried. Did you know as well that that was such a long shot?

Because you were retired before the series. No, no, it's drastically around me actually at the start of O'9. I said, I want you to get some runs in county cricket and then we'll have a look. But my body was just knackered. I couldn't do the training. I couldn't do the kind of work. Did you think you had a shot?

Or do you think this is such a long shot? No, there was the odd morning that I woke up and thought, yeah, come on, let's have a go. Try and get that batting stock. Because Jonathan Trots ended up playing in that series. It's Rabby Bapar at number three. Yeah, you've done well in the West Indies. Yeah, I was looking going.

There's a chance and there's an opportunity. as well as I could, but, you know, when you're fighting knee problems all the time, you know, I just felt, and I've always, I mean, I probably retired a little bit too young, you know, because, you know, that phone, I had a phone call on the physios bed when I was playing at Worcester and the second team had scored, I don't know, 550 and Joe Root and Johnny Baxter have got another hundred each and I like, no, time to move on. You know, I've always been one of those kind of people that as soon as I realize, I've had a good time of it. I believe that young people need an opportunity as well. So my game, my mind was never ever. I would have royally embarrass myself in 2009. But you lifted the earn in 2005. By the time the next Home Ashes series came around, you were a former cricketer.

You retired before that series started. I mean, you were only 34. You were younger than what, or the same age as what Joe Root is now. I don't think many people would have thought that, you know, when you were lifting the urn at the Oval. It's different times.

Now they, you know, they will play till the 38, 39. I mean, 34, 35 was the norm, you know, back in those days. And it's just, I'd never change anything. I said, if I had played a 09, I'd have really embarrassed myself. If you wouldn't be sat here now, if you'd be saying, God, that idiot that played in 09, what was he doing? So it wasn't hard to take that you didn't get another crap? No, I actually enjoyed it.

I went to, I went to Cardiff. I thought I went to a couple of the games I can't remember where they play but I just went and I actually enjoyed it's the only summer I've had really where I've had the chance just to go and watch you know from 2010

I've started to work and obviously every single summer since then I've been broadcasting so there was one time this summer I went to the World Test Championship final this summer just as a fan and I absolutely adored it

just being at Lord watching cricket and being in the Harry Harris Garden in amongst I've never been in the Harris Garden you know my mates for I saw it's great in the Harris Garden and it's these kind of things that you can I look back now at 16 years since I stopped playing cricket and say oh as much as I've done a lot I think I've missed a lot as well you know in cricket just being a normal fan we just whistled through your ashes career and it was 10 test matches mm-hmm maximum of 50 days not all of them went five days like one 50 days we got armored in Perth in three so but but

you know, as a portion of, as a torsion of time in your life, quite small, but as an influence on your life. Well, that's the opportunity for, you know, I look at this, I'll keep saying about this England side, they've got a huge opportunity of getting people talking about this team, this group, forever. And I guess that's what's happening in 2005. you can pretty much just run the 05 team off your tongue because only 12 players played. Paul Collin would obviously replacing Simon Jones for that last game and there'll be more rotation this time

but if this England side can do something really special the side will just roll off everyone's tongs for it won't be 20 years, it'd be a lot longer than that. So I guess that's what Ash is cricket. I mean the World Cups are always great, always special. But in the UK, It's the ashes that count more than anything. It's the ashes that get you that kind of...

I don't think it's respect. It's just that love. You get a huge amount of love from the British supporters if you do something in an Ashes series. We started off by talking about how you felt about Ashes cricket when you were a boy, playing games, the players that you looked up to trying to find out the score when you were going to school.

then you went through that as a cricketer having success in Australia getting your hands on the urn. Did it turn out to be the way you thought it would be? Was it everything you wanted it to be? At the end it was. Honestly, at the start, I hated it.

Brisbane, 202, God, if this is as nice as cricket, I just don't want to be involved in this. I found it was so stressful, pressurised. I don't think I slept that first week in Brisbane. And then the more I played, the more I realized, right, this is pretty cool. This is all right. I got used to it, got a little bit more emotionally detached.

I think at the start, you're a bit too emotionally detached. Kind of engaged with the ashes, what it means, all the history, and you want to be a part of it. Probably try too much, try too hard. Eventually, you realize it is a game of cricket. But try and get to that kind of notion early is very, very difficult. It probably takes two or three games to realize it's just a game of cricket, but it's, as we all know, it's not.

It's more than a game of cricket. And that's how you feel about it now? Yeah, yeah. And again, you've got to think 20 years, you know, T20 crickets arrive, IPLs, 100 pool competitions, T-10s. Whiteball cricket's become, you know, the kind of main part of the players living.

You know, if you want to earn a crush, you play whiteball cricket but you can't beat the Red Bull you can't beat test cricket and you can't beat the Ashes it's nothing quite like turning up in Australia or in the UK playing an Ashes game

and long may that continue and Michael Vaughn scores his first century against Australia the whole of the Adelaide Oval rises to him it's his sixth test century his fifth this year his fifth in 19th Test.

That was From the Ashes. You can read more about Michael Vaughan's 2002-2003 series on the BBC Sport website and app. The first episode in this series of From the Ashes was with Stuart Broad, which you can find now on BBC Sounds. Make sure you're subscribed to the Test Match Special podcast so you get a notification every time we upload during this winter's ashes when we'll be bringing you daily podcasts from Australia. That's it for now. We'll speak to you next time. Towards backwards, straight leg, and the catch is slaker. The ICC Women's Cricket World Cup. Featuring the stars of women's cricket.

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