Test Match Special - From the Ashes: Sir Alastair Cook.

Episode Date: May 24, 2023

The final episode in the series where the BBC’s Chief Cricket writer Stephan Shemilt discovers untold stories from the Ashes.Few have experienced more of England’s modern Ashes history than Alastair Cook.During a 12-year international career, Cook played every one of a possible 35 Ashes Tests, scoring more runs than any player on either side. Only Archie MacLaren, at the beginning of the last century, led England in more Ashes Tests than Cook’s 15 as skipper.Cook was player of the series in a win down under, but was also captain when an England team fell apart in a 5-0 hammering. We find out why he wrestled Graeme Swann in the dressing room at The Oval and why he was reduced to tears after scoring what turned out to be his final Ashes hundred.Don’t forget you can catch up on all the other episodes on BBC Sounds with guests Glenn McGrath, Steve Finn, Sarah Elliott and David Gower plus you can read much more on the BBC Sport website and app.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. To embrace the impossible requires a vehicle that pushes what's possible. Defender 110 boasts a towing capacity of 3,500 kilograms, a weighting depth of 900 millimeters and a roof load up to 300 kilograms. Learn more at Landrover.ca. Jill Scott's Coffee Club. We are back. I'm so excited for the second series, Ben. He's going to be so excited.

bigger and better this year. We've got the Lioness as England manager, Sabrina. Wow. As if we've got Serena. I'm happy that I've seen her a couple of times after the Euros. More on TV than in life. You can see her now here. Let's not forget as well Jill. We've got to hear about all your antics in the jungle

too. Every now and then, there'd just be a tannoy going, Jill, you are not allowed to leave coffee that way. So I was constantly getting in trouble. Jill Scott's Coffee Club. Listen on BBC Sounds. BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcast.

You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Hello, I'm Stefan Shemmelt, the BBC's chief cricket writer, and this is the last in the series of From the Ashes, a Test Match special podcast. In the build-up to this summer's Ashes series, we've been looking at some of the untold stories from cricket's oldest rivalry. The achievements of this week's guest made him a night. of the realm. Few have experienced more of England's modern ashes history than Alistair Cook. During a 12-year international career, Cook played every one of a possible 35 ashes tests,

scoring more runs than any player on either side. Only Archie McLaren at the beginning of the last century led England in more ashes tests than Cook's 15 as skipper. He was player of the series in a famous win down under, but was also captain when England fell apart in a 5-0 hammering. We'll find out why he wrestled Graham Swan in the dressing room at the Oval and why he was reduced to tears after scoring what turned out to be his final Ashes 100. Don't forget you can catch up with all the other episodes on BBC Sounds

with guests Glenn McGraw, Steve Finn, Sarah Elliott and David Gower. But speaking at Trent Bridge, the scene of his second triumph as Ashes captain this week's from The Ashes is all about Alistair Cook. This is the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Going right back to the start of your career, playing against Australia. 2005 was a big summer for English cricket. It was your first taste of playing against the Australians, wasn't it? 214 off 238 balls for Essex.

against the Aussies, what was that first taste of playing against Australia like? I suppose 2005 was a big year for eight English cricket, and obviously the first time I'd been kind of seen how cricket could really captivate, like the nation, obviously, without slagging off NASA too much. Every time we played against Australia, we never really got the result we wanted. I remember 1997, I would have been 12 or 11, and winning that first test match like they did and NASA getting the double hundred

and thought getting the 100 and winning the first game that was the first, you know, old enough to really understand the cricket and this is our first, we could win the ashes, obviously can quite work out of that and then a couple other series

but then in 2005 and I was in the professional game I was doing okay for S6 and just obviously watching these amazing games and watching the effect it had on people and being around it, understanding it as well was incredible. And we had that two-day Walmart game. And I think at the beginning of the series,

I think Essex was like Australia had said to Essex, we'll play club cricketers, just let you be, like, you might have sold out the ground, but they'll be thinking they'll be ahead of the series, you know, they wouldn't want their big guns to be playing and just before the Oval. As it turned out, obviously what happened in that series was that their bowls were a bit short of rhythm

and as it always happens in a tour when you're not going as well as you want selections up for grabs and some certainty. So they played a pretty full-strent side. You made your mark making headlines actually the fact that this young batter at Essex had just taken an under-pressure Australia side for a double hundred.

Yeah and Ravi got 100 as well so it was kind of two young Essex guys doing well. Look it was a flat wicket I think Matthew Aiden got 100 I think 160 before lunch the next day day and so it's like surfing and swimming pool so um how flat the wiki was but it was just a great crowd great excitement and just to be part of of that and do and do pretty well yeah was probably what it did for my career was it jumped me ahead of the next few batters in in kind

of in the selection thing and that i you know i know what it's like now when you've you're you're an international player playing test matches and you have a warm-up game in between yeah, the intensity does drop off and there's certainly an element of that but there was also an element of them trying to bowl themselves into the team for the biggest game at the Oval and if you did jump the queue 18 months later

you were playing Ash's cricket for the first time in 06-07 down under how was that as an Ash's baptism? Certainly a baptism and again you look at you look back at these things And, you know, from that moment, that Australia side there, one thing was redemption and winning the ashes back off England, where obviously that 2005 side had reached their pinnacle, that side never played again. And I was part of, like, the next generation, I suppose, that side in 2005, the England side in 2005 never played again. I was on the next tour to Pakistan that winter in 2005, then made my day in 2006, but the side was breaking up.

injuries or whatever, you know, they'd reached their mountain, really. But, well, Australia, obviously, they had that meeting, whatever it was, saying we've got to get them back in six, seven. And, you know, I kind of felt the full force of a cricketing nation wanting revenge. And as an experience of a, as a 21-year-old opening the batting, you know, for those five-test match, obviously, Trades went home. I was going to bat three. Trades went home. So I went in there.

But it was, you know, up to there, my career, you know, it'd been like a steady incline. I'd scored some runs in test cricket. Yeah, that was the first time where I'd experience the lows of it in terms of I think I did okay. I mean, I got starts and then they got 100 in Perth. But, you know, apart from that, it was fleeting success, really, if you've been honest. But it was like, to me, it was like the first time I played against the best side in the world. And I came up short, but that's the standard I had to get to.

I watched Ricky Ponting bat. You know, that Brisbane 100 he got. I was just like, I didn't realize you could play that well. And that's kind of set the standard. I had to go away off that tour and look at my game and try and be better. But also it teaches you the mental resilience when you are 5-0 down. When you lose 5-0 down in Australia, how tough cricket can be. Did that 100 in Perth do anything for you in the thought that I've just made 100 in Australia

with our backs against the wall? Again, Shane Warren and Glenn McGraar, what did that do for your batter? Well, obviously, if you'd take the whole series as a whole series, I failed, but, you know, for a 21-year-old, to be able to school those runs against that attack gave me the confidence that I do actually belong at international level. And I know throughout my career you have good times and you have bad times, but, you know, one of the main challenges that young cricketers

or anyone trying to make their way, the international cricket, and you never get it. I don't care what people say. Once you get close to feel like you belong in international cricket and you have the respect to the opposition, I think it goes quite a long way to being able to just be able to relax and play. Guys at county cricket get it quite, get it sooner than you do it international cricket, and then you've got to do the whole step again.

So you might be a capped county player, scored your runs, taking your wickets, and you can be 25, 26, and then suddenly you go out to international cricket, and you've got to do that all again, and done it once, and it's harder to do again. But when you do get it, then you can kind of focus just on the game, watching the ball, play every ball on its merit. and all those cliches, not thinking, am I good enough in it? Am I honestly good enough?

And if you can get there, then you might be able to let your talent fly. Can you look back at that series with any sort of fondness or any sort of sense of privilege that you were there particularly for, I know, Warner McGraw, walking off together in Sydney,

those sorts of things? I suppose now, to be part of that series and when you can take the emotion out of it and you look like, actually, it's a famous series to be part of. And, you know, you were part of Crickening History. Yes, on the wrong side of it. And I think at the time, it didn't feel like that.

Because, you know, will I ever win an ashes? Will I ever be part of an ashes winning side? Will I ever have, you know, all those kind of questions. You then leave Australia in January 2007. If I knew what I know now was going to happen to the England side and me being part of it, then been fine. But obviously at the time, it was very raw. And I remember at the end of that series,

my girlfriend and I think her dad and that were out my mum and dad I think we're out and I just go out I couldn't I just said no I don't want to go out I just want to sit in my room and because I didn't want to face people because I felt embarrassed about it but then I think now I suppose it's a bit older you kind of you know we came against a very good side we weren't good enough and you

hold your chin up but it does take a bit of an effect on you and did you just sit in your room yeah I did yeah I let them go out and I just had the evening to myself to contemplate And if you were thinking, am I ever going to win an Ashes series? Well, you did in the next opportunity. 2009 was a bit of a funny one in that it was a fantastic series that went to a decider, a proper decider. It was one one going into the Oval. It's almost a bit forgotten, isn't it?

Because it came so soon after 2005. But a lot happened in that. Again, I think that's what... When you start looking back on why the Ashes is so special, it creates memories and memories that people are remember I know you just said 2009 it wasn't it's not a famous series but you know for me it was a famous series because I remember halfway through that series I mean it was one one one or whenever we were down or up I remember talking to me and so I just skipped anything to be there at the oval to win the series and yes I didn't play a massive part in that series in terms of the runs

I scored or whatever but I remember leaving the oval on day I want to say I want to say day three but it might be day four when they're putting the stage up and we you know obviously trotty's 100 and we were dominating the game you know you never know in Australia you know with people when you have Hussie Ponting or Clark you feel as if they can chase anything especially when you're so close to it and I remember walking past Australia and they're putting it up thinking God this time tomorrow we could be celebrating

and that was an incredible moment but still a lot of hard work to do so that's what I think Ashish Creek does it gives you the opportunity to create memories and things you don't forget you took the winning catch I did at short legs Graham Swan Bowling my cussie

who played an unbelievable 100 to save you know like I mean to save his career in one sense people were doubting his place I mean

which you kind of forget don't you how it happens to great players you know even in 2010 people are questioning his place but that was a

fantastic 100 and although randomly like a couple of people one person or Derek Randall he took the catch to win The Ashes and he was my, he was at Bedford School as a cricket pro and I remember him

doing a Q&A about the Ashes and he said, one regret was I took the winning catch and in my enthusiasm I just threw the ball up in the air and ran off and the ball's never seen again for him anyway. So he said, oh the one thing I would do is I would have kept that ball and he made me a millionaire, that was kind of his thing in front of all these people. I was like, well if I ever get, I mean this is a 16 year old kid or 17 year old kid I think I was like, well, A, I'm never going to play for England, but if I do get the opportunity, I'll never let that. And then one of my friends, a guy called Ian Elliott,

who I used to open the batting with the Morden or Bat 3, and he was like, you know, when you're a youngster, this guy I was playing Morden first team, school all the runs, is kind of like my hero of trying to emulate him. He texted me that morning. He said, if you catch the ball, put it in your pocket, because that's what he used to do at slip. He used to catch the ball put in his pocket.

That was his kind of thing. So there I was, like, there at short leg. and I wasn't thinking that I was going to take the catch but when I did take the catch my kind of the subconscious took over and there I was, everyone else was running around and I managed to have the presence of mine to put it in my pocket.

Where is it now? What happened to it? Well, I tell you what happened to it. Did it's when he get five for an innings? I think he got four. He wrestled me for it because he was like, I want that ball and I actually, because I threw him and I'll say, yeah, here it is and just there's another ball

lying around and I threw it to him and he obviously realized it wasn't the ball and then he tried to wrestle me for it. Yeah, that evening, obviously, maybe a few beers now. But obviously, I'm a lot stronger than him, so it was absolutely fine. He had no chance. Did my WWF moves on him. But then about a year later, the Lord's Museum said,

oh, have you still got that ball? Can you donate it to us? And we thought, we donated it to them. And I do think he's got donated by Graham Swanaz to cook on it. And I'm like, well, there's no, you know what Swanee's like, just trying to get anywhere, any publicity can, but it's certainly my ball, not his. As an experience having that taste of winning the ashes at home in a remarkable finish to the series when it was 1-1 going to the Oval

and there's all sorts going on. You said Jonathan Trot came in and made his debut and made 100. People were asking for Mark Ramprakash to play, if you remember. Just for a one-off test, come back. It's a cup final. And there was all the furority around Andrew Flintoff, who was retiring from test cricket, and there was the run out of Ricky Ponting on the final afternoon.

Yeah. What was that experience like to be part of the wave of emotion and celebration? Like, fantastic, absolutely fantastic. And to be part of it was very special, that there was a burning desire to know, Jimmy and I both said to ourselves, cool, wouldn't it be nice to have played a bigger part and being more successful in this thing alike?

And we sat in the oval change room, just had like 10 minutes with us. And we both said the same. I think he bought okay, you know, contributed moments. But like consistently throughout the series hadn't like been the, you know, somebody like trotty there, I know you only played one game, but, you know, made a big impact. And both of us felt like we hadn't made an impact in that series.

Like we'd like to have done little moments, the Lord's obviously, got some runs, but, you know, not like a standout. I said, that was the next thing. Like, yes, I'm now an Ash's winner, but could I, I wanted to make a difference. in a national series. Which you did. 18 months later, but I guess the

famous part of that story is that you were under a lot of pressure before that series. You made the 100 against Pakistan just before, I think it was the last test match of the summer.

But did you ever feel like you might not go on that tour? The tour wasn't on my radar because I was patting so badly. Ironically, I think I'd scored 300 that winter. I changed my technique. I was in 2009.

sitting there, I was like, twice an hour I played against Australia, the best side in the world, and I, you know, I'd average 30. Was my technique good enough against the real pinnacle of test cricket? So I then did a lot of work after 2009, straight away after that series, when we were Gucci, and we sat

down, and we kind of thrashed out, and I changed my technique. In what way? I mean, like, more rigid, more, more straight-lined, and trying to be because, obviously, my technique, my original technique, and the technique which I played most of my career with, and the end of my after this like eight

months of trying to improve it I was very I had lots of moving parts and if those moving parts weren't quite in sync I couldn't be great and maybe that's what I thought and there's always that

nagging thought in your mind isn't it is if I change it will I be a better player so I went with him and we did lots of like I did my pre-trigger movement a bit like Jack Alice like be very still at the crease

back lift trying to I did have a double one but try to keep it more tucked in and more precise. And actually, well, I think I scored 200s in the one-day games for Essex at the end of that season. Then went to Bangladesh in South Africa and scored 100 in Durban

and 200s in Bangladesh. You're a captain, wouldn't you as well? I was, and so I was like, yeah, this is it, like. But then as soon as the ball started moving back around, back in England, that rigid technique just wouldn't get me out of trouble. So it wouldn't, like, jam the ball, like, the thing, like, wouldn't just,

if the ball nipped, it wouldn't just somehow get an inside edge on it and survive, I'd got out. And also I was hitting a lot of balls straight at fielders, at mid on and mid off, like trying to be better, rather than hitting them through midwicket, which was like technically a worse shot, but a run scoring show,

I was hitting them straight back at the bowler. And I just, yeah, I got very stuck. And yeah, I had a terrible summer against. Bangladesh and Pakistan for the, I think I was averaging single figures. So that Ashes tour wasn't on my radar. It was like, oh my God, I'm playing my last game for England. And that's kind of how that summer was.

I couldn't get out of the route. And that oval test match after the first innings, I was four or not out or something overnight, and that was a knick through the slips. And I, you know, I wasn't in any great frame of mind to be socialised or anything. I just went down to the bar and just was drinking, not drinking, but I was eating dinner

and a cup of drinks on my own. You know, like sometimes you just do, I don't want to talk to anyone. And the sports psychologist, like, came up to me. Obviously, a bit of a warning sign, in it? Like, a bloke was obviously struggling with his form, sitting on his own. And he's like, are you all right?

And I said, well, not really. I'm about to go and finish my last innings for England. That's my exact words. And he said, can I help? I said, well, what are you going to do? Back for me. Like, he was with a friend and just walked off. Obviously, he's like, oh, you know, I should be dead help.

And I just made a pact to myself that that night. It might be my last innings, but don't get out defending. Which obviously, you've watched enough of my batting. You know, I'm a bit about defence and grind the opposition down and build a longings. but I just didn't want to do that. And I also said, I'm going to go and use my technique and my old technique. And I hit my first ball before the next morning,

through midwicket from off stump. And I was away. And I got 80-odd by lunch. And that 100s certainly then got me on that tour. That's the summer. So I wasn't in the best space. I wasn't flying. I then had the clarity of my mind.

I said, well, this is the technique, which is my best technique. It might not be the best technique in the world. It might not suit everyone, but I can't be any better than I can be. so my ceiling is with this technique and that clarity you know it was a very nice moment to have and also then when you haven't scored runs when you find a bit of rhythm and find a bit of clarity in your mind you're you're so hungry to to make most of it just before we get on to what happened

in down under in 1011 did you manage to miss the training camp in germany where a lot of the team describe it as the worst three or four days of their life I did my brother got married and so did he was the second lead he didn't run the score of that trip

but I was genuinely gutted I missed that trip because although the lad says the worst three or four days of their lives

I actually did turn up I turned up for the last day so I missed the first two and a half and turned up the last day and actually

what was the best thing about it apart from I mean I was like what the hell has gone here because there's just a group of broken men

to set the scene Andy Flower and Andrew Strauss led the team to somewhere in Bavaria. Well, that's where they went, and they certainly didn't lead it. They were given Reg Dick, they gave Reg Dickinson and do whatever you want. He needs the head of security.

He has a security guard. I think he did some racing for Australia. Just do what you want with us for three days, make it tough. And they were picked up at the airport by some very big men, led into the forest. Yeah. All sorts went on. They were marched up up hills. Like four in a morning.

They were in a boxing ring. Oh, yeah, and like, waking up four in a morning, camping. You know, like just taking people totally out of the morning. their comfort zone. But when I turned up on day three, you know, I was like, well, the hell, obviously I felt like the total outsider. They knew what they're doing,

all that kind of stuff. But the two most broken men were flatter and strowls. I was like, you served, you deserved it because you obviously organised it. And I saw like, Ravi Bapari, it just looked like, it's absolutely fine, like normal Ravi. So I missed out on that.

But what it did do is it gave a few people the chance to get a few things off their chest and people see people from a slightly different thing, but they're a different environment. but they were talking about it for ages and I was like do you remember they're like do you remember this and that and that's what

those camps do and yes there's always going to be people who hate those things it doesn't matter what you do like you can do anything they'll hate him but the fact that everyone was still talking about it and I think it gave a lot of like slightly people just

below like I suppose lead in management level in terms of the players you know they probably came out of their shells a bit more and did wonders for them but yeah I don't think it's particularly easy so 1011 in Australia, some bare facts, 766 runs, 235 not out in Brisbane, the drone first test, when England were 517 for one in the second innings,

148 in the win in Adelaide in the second test, 189 in the win in Sydney. In the fifth test, I mean... I think like an 80 in Melbourne as well, which... You alluded to it with your technique, is that the why? Can you now... What are we, 12 years on? Do you know why that series was so productive for you?

I just hit the sweet spot of batting. Perth, I didn't score any runs in the warm-up game. I think I got 100 than at that. I didn't bat particularly well, but I got 100. I didn't notice anything like I was in great form or anything like that. And then I got to Brisbane, and I was gutted in the first innings. Gutted in the first innings. But on a big occasion, you know, you win the toss, you bat.

You know, it's a gavitoise and a pretty uncomfortable place to play. and Strousey out, third ball. And I thought I got 60-od. And I go to say, want to make a difference. Go back to 2009, where I was in the series, I played, but didn't make a huge impact with the bat. And I had a great opportunity on day one to go and get 100, which I always think it's a great marker for a player.

Can you stand up in the biggest game on the first day? And I missed out, and I was generally gutted, and obviously the hat-trick, I was the first ball of Peter Siddell's hat-trick. So I was gutted there, but we're soon at back out on the field because they got millions though we bowled pretty well and I remember going out on day three I went eight overs maybe to go

and I said you know this is tough you know you've pretty much been on the field for three days got through that and then from that moment on I just I did find some rhythm yeah and I'll so I could just remember make a difference make a difference and this is an opportunity and after that after that game it was the first

I think it might be my 14th test 100 so it wasn't as if it was like early on but I remember that that was the first Test 100, I thought I'd made a real impact on the game. Yes, it was a drawn game, but with the psychological effects of Brisbane, all that kind of stuff, I delivered when the team needed me most, when we're behind, and under pressure, I think that just gave me unbelievable self-belief. And I was just because of what happened so far that year,

when I hadn't been scoring many runs, I was just determined to make play. And I remember the next time in Adelaide, I've always been there, okay, I've got 100 next week, I've got to get 100. You know what I mean? Don't, you know, you score 300 runs in the game. Don't be the bloke only scores 400 in the series and kind of wash away. So actually to score 148 next week, after the whole physical exertion of Brisbane, spending pretty much five days in the field to do that, you know, it was unbelievable.

And I remember batting in those nets in Adelaide, and I was like, Gucci's slinging them down, and I could almost feel like I could hit anywhere. You know, I was leaving the absolute, the good ones. And any time he missed that perfect thing, I was either driving or cutting him before, and I was just like, I'm in some good space now. Let's make the most of it. Can you remember that feeling of what it was like? I just, no, I can't, but I couldn't, no, because obviously you didn't wake in the game,

you're nervous, all the anxiety, which goes with, I perform under pressure, but I do remember that net. McGoochie threw, and he just tapped my glove and said, you're in a good space, and I knew I was in a good space, and then it was just a matter of, can I carry that on? Can it, will it last? And don't upset the cricket in gods. That's all I was ever thinking, don't do anything different, and I didn't for, for pretty much seven weeks.

Favorite moment from that series? I can't get over the feeling we had when we won. When Chris Tremlin got that wicket, I mean, probably during the game, that Mitchell Johnson song, when he walked out to that song, the bowl, he bowls left, and then he gets first border. I was at mid-off. Like, the atmosphere was incredible. It was loud. And Chris Tremlin just said to me, I'm just going to bowl this as fast as I can. I've got no idea where I was going.

He obviously, he bought an absolute jaft in his full, swung in, nipped around. And the noise that bar me on me made there. And obviously then serenaded Mitchell-Johnson off as well, just changed a word. bowling to batting was that was that moment really like that was you know that was proper I was there moment but you know when we won at Sydney took that final with all the anxiety of the last seven weeks which you know you feel you you don't feel it unless you're playing like you sit here and as a commentator or whatever in the crowd there's there's this barrier of knowing's anxiety you know like we're we're dominating games of

cricket and yet I still you still that may be just the way I was bred or the way I operated there's always that well they could get back in this game we could be chasing 100 even though they're like 350 behind and they you know like the Sydney they they might get they might get under 450 and we've got to chase 100 and you all you can't I just could not help that's that that's what kept me on the edge and when that that final wicket gone I think we might have won by an innings and 70 maybe I still I still had a thought I'll have to go back again that's how I was so that though So when that final wicket, all gone, sat on the outfield, drinking away, just talking as a group. And that was the moment.

I was like, that's a job well done. And I remember flying home from Australia. I didn't play in the one day series, didn't have the World Cup to go to. Which is probably a blessing in disguise in one sense. I got to really enjoy the fact that I sat on that plane. And we won the ashes, and I scored as many runs as I did. I don't often get ultimate satisfaction either. There's nothing more I could have done on that tour, which is about the only tour I've ever.

had that experience or a series where you couldn't have done anymore. So I did enjoy that 24 hours, just that pure and not a relaxation. 2013, your captain. How different is that as an experience? So I suppose at this stage I'd won the Ashes twice as a player. That in itself is, you know, I've been lucky enough to play in the year I did, and we mentioned NASA and Alex Dewan and some greats of our game who came across a very good Australian side, clearly.

never could call themselves an Ashes winner but twice an Ashes winner and I don't want this to sound arrogant obviously to be a man of the series in the biggest series is a nice thing to have and you don't appreciate it at the time but you certainly do now

and then I suppose like everything there's the next challenge isn't it you'll suddenly find yourself as a skipper going into the series and can I be an Ashes winning captain that's again can you define even more of your career and that's kind of what it felt like to me

you won 3-0 Yeah, we did And if you go back to it It was the 10 in a row And you know There was cause Well this England side Will beat them 10 nil

That was I remember someone shouts I think it might have been beefy I'm sure It's a bit of a throwaway comment So we were expected to win We were kind of won in India And it's that

You're talking about a series Which definitely goes under the radar For me it was all about winning But there was a realisation At the end of that series And certainly after what happened Down Under That there is more to winning

There is a way of playing cricket By that point Now this was the third consecutive series that England had won the Ashes at home. Having not done it for 20 years up to 2005, was it a case of almost by that point, not necessarily the England team, but maybe England fans were taking it

for granted that the Ashes was being won at home? And second, was that a popular team in terms of the way you were playing? And you've just alluded to it in about a way to win. I don't think it was a popular team, no. And that's certainly probably what we found out after that. We were unpopular. This was like during the Twitter transition.

I would say. This would have been like the social media had been around for five, six years and we were very single-minded inside. Obviously, led by Andrew Flatt, led by Andrew Strauss, then followed on by myself. And our ethos would all be trying to shut outside, outside noise down, trying to just concentrate on ourselves,

be singly minded in our operation, in our focus, in how we play our cricket. Quite an nutritional style sometimes as well, isn't it? It was a nutritional style. You played to our strengths. Jimmy, Stuart, absolutely relentlessly. ruthless for the ball. Don't bet bowl many of our balls. You know, lead, I suppose, in the style of me as a captain

at the top of the order of the batting, just grind, grind, grind away. And very effective, you know, became number one in the world. You know, this is like, obviously, with Strowsy and then kind of the next stage on when I was captain and winning India here. But what it was, it was, again, probably the end of the cycle of that team, which then fell apart when, you know,

I don't think you should ever have to play 10 test matches in a row against Australia. I think that was a, a fundamental mess up by completely beyond your control. Absolutely like trying to so we never have a World Cup and an Ashes in the same year but then we're now back to having a World Cup

and Ashes in the same year so it's so but to go to ask the players to do what they did as it wasn't easy because I remember we won in 3-0 and I remember saying to lads at the end of the dressing room like normally that's there's no message at the end of it let's just go and enjoy the thing and I remember saying

look we're halfway through it we've got we've got a chance to go and beat these guys in their place so I'm I want us to enjoy a little bit but let's get back straight on it and maybe that was my bat as a captain because you can't like

I think Stokesy's comment recently about we're not like sports people aren't like cars you can't just fill them up with fuel and I think that was real, that was exactly what happened there and you know and exactly what it can happen when you ask too much of players

your team was taking a bit of flack as well by the end of it as well for something that happened at the Oval in the celebration where some of the team got accused of urinating on the outfit. Yeah, look, it wasn't, I'm sure, it wasn't the finest moment of it. But, again, like, I can't defend it. I mean, or whatever, we were not a disrespectful side. At that time, everything was so serious in everything. You know, like, that was, you know, we probably could have just held a hands up and laughed about it.

But we tried not to inflame the media. Was there any sign at that point at the end of the home summer? any inkling of what was about to come. No. Like, I didn't play the one-day series. Because that was the first exposure to Mitchell Johnson 2.0, wasn't it? Yeah, I think so.

And, you know, obviously, I'd had pretty good memories of facing Mitchell Johnson, so he certainly wouldn't have been on my radar going down there in 2013. Like, everyone's, like, if he's bonoing well, I was like, yeah, I'm fine against this guy. Like, I've scored a lot of runs against in the past. Yes, he might have got me out,

but I'm pretty confident that I'll carry on. But then just the feedback from that series was, got he's bawling quick I kind of just brushed it off like I'll be fine we'll be fine maybe I should have paid more attention maybe I should have like all these things like

how I operated of when I wasn't playing cricket I was away on the farm not thinking about cricket all the time was really good probably for my longevity was it then good was I doing enough research

and all that kind of stuff and taking real interest in you know maybe that could have been warning signs to start trotty he played that series he was offered it off and he chose to take it on.

I'm pretty sure that's right. I remember him playing. Maybe if I was watched every ball from there and been on the phone to Flower and Asha Giles there and then all the time, I might have, we might have been able to realise, but this is all hindsight and everything's brilliant in hindsight.

And you went to Australia, but after another team building trip, that didn't go quite so well, was it running around Stafford looking for surveillance and all sorts of things? Again, I, again, I was. not involved in it. How did you manage to skip that one out? No, I was there, but I wasn't involved in the

planning of preparation. And this is and, you know, so Flower was like, we're going to, I want to do another camp, you know, after success of the other one. But I don't want it to be quite a hardship, I want it to be more of enjoyable. Like, take totally outside I think, and I think that was the remit he gave the person who

ran it. But Flower didn't want to get involved because he wanted the surprise as well. I think this, again, I don't want to, which seems quite unlike Andy Flower, not to know exactly what's going on, but I'm pretty sure this is right. Anyway, we got there, and it was an absolute disaster. From the moment we got there, like, they tried to book the hotel in Stafford or something,

and there was a biker's convention, all the hotels are booked up, so we were staying 45 minutes in, yet the bloke would organise in Stafford, so we're driving 45 minutes in to do our surveillance, ha-ha, and then driving back, the food is rubbish. It sounded great on paper,

but actually the three days was a complete, and out a waste of time, the lads hated it, and again, could we have, like, just pulled the pin after day one? I'd imagine, like, if Brendan McCullen had been there, and he wouldn't have done surveillance

and been on the golf course but if he had he would just say oh my god this is not what I signed up for and done it but that was hindsight and it probably just summed up what was about to experience like for something which went so well in 2010 although the players were some of the players

would say they hated it that was just a kind of great symbol of what was about to happen this is the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live more from Alistair Cook in a moment including why he was left in tears at the Melbourne cricket ground after what turned out to be his final hundred in Ashes cricket.

That's after this. Sailenders, much more than just a cricket podcast. Lusely cricket-based, meaning we very rarely talk about world cricket. Yes, but when we need to, we can do. Boy, can we deliver. As England's greatest ever bowler, you don't need to do this podcast, but why do you? Welcome to Taylenders, a Lucy Cricket-based... Thank you, Otelan's, Lucy Cricket Base.

...with podcast from me, Chief Force, him, Felix White, him, Jimmy Anderson, matching tenderly, tail enders. Listen on BBC Sounds. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. That series in 2013-14, 10 years on, now. Do you have an understanding of what happened and what went wrong? We fell apart on depression, and there's a lot of war. warning signs, selection was wrong.

But again, when you're talking about selection, you're, in the moment, when I say selection is wrong, I'm putting this with hindsight, where, you know, tall bowlers tend to do well in Australia, hit the pitch, be good. But if your bowlers can't, it's on paper,

but then there's injuries, lack of rhythm, like Stephen Finn, leading wicket-take-up in 2010-11, by the end of that talk couldn't hit the cut strip. I know he's chatted to you and he's, and that's a tough moment for him. and trying to leave in the tour. Boyd Rankin, playing one game, cramping and, you know,

we had four or five debuts on an Ashes tour. Talk about preparation of a tour, that should never happen. But maybe because this thing was three months after the last Ashes, wasn't given due care attention because we were forced to do something which had never been kind of done before, I think. And you were the Ashes holders, you'd just won 3-0? Exactly. So, look, ultimate, I did talk to something every day about this.

As a leader, I wasn't good enough. Every time I go to bed thinking about it, which I don't really, but if I did, you know, when they hit the fan, I wasn't good enough to lead us through that. And we fell apart and it was an absolute shambles. And ultimately, as a, you know, when you stand in 2013 with on the stadium and you're picking up the ashes, like you get some credit. And ultimately you're down to the other people who've done it really because you, no matter how good a captain you are, it's down to the team. but you get that iconic moment. So then you have to be big and brave enough to say when you don't win and you lose 5-0,

you have to be responsible for that team. Not the other lads you do, because that's just the nature of the beast. I look back and I wasn't good enough to lead that there. I think I learn a hell of a lot from that as a leader, and I'd love to know what would happen again if I was put in that situation again. I'd hope to think I'd handle it better than I did.

but who knows it was a you know I look back now on my on my test career and I'm glad I went through it at some stage because then you just do appreciate what the lads are about to go through on both sides you know win lose or whatever and it does it does yeah it wasn't particularly pleasant no you're talking about it now 10 years on but in the moment what were you personally going through because you said a little bit earlier that at the end of the 0607 talk you didn't want to go out for dinner with your family. So what were you going through in 13, 14, as captain? Well, obviously, I was relieved. It was over. I won't lie to you. I think it was a three-day game. I was a release.

It was done. The difference there was like, well, I'm the leader's team. I can't be the one sulking, you know, chin up. And face the criticism. And I felt as a leader of that team, that's what I did. As in, like, I didn't hide away. I was honest and just say, right. But what I did know then as a side,

if I was given the opportunity and remember we had the KP Shally Ashanti play that was going on during the one day series I think we won one game on that tour what do we do with this team will I be given the opportunity to rebuild it because that's a

you know as a crash bang what's you know Swanee gone trotty gone KP going three fairly big players of huge important to English cricket and huge success no longer there would I be given opportunity to try and rebuild the side and do I want to do and I didn't want to

beat the last test match as the captain was a 5-0 I didn't want to be I did that is not how I left it and I wanted to be I want to be part of the kind of the the process to getting us where English cricket should be how close were you to not carrying on no not at all if I was given the opportunity I still had the hunger to do it I wanted the opportunity to because I felt I could lead the next generation of a side through I felt I had a part to play so there was no

there was no decision on my that might have been taken out my hand yes but I'm sure there might have been moments but nothing I can really think of it closer to quitting in the following summer during that India series the India the Sri Lanka and India

that was you know the Sri Lanka series when we were they were 100 behind 7 down or level 7 down and we lose that series headingly headingly and Jimmy got out not the end of that game no but day four when we're three down

and I was one of the three that was as close I was quitting like everything like you know I was I do remember Alice came up and she'd been up either day or day before

I can't remember and Elsie wouldn't have been very old you know a couple of months and we're watching I was watching some could it be athletics Commonwealth Games

I remember just sitting there holding Elsie watching TV in my own little world but thank God Elsie and Alice are there because it's a stark reminder that however Porton Cricket was there is other things

and there's an England captain sometimes you know you're so engrossed in trying to be the best leader you can be in trying to lead a side through and under you know five days of pressure and that's what makes it it's not just five days is it

the five days people see there's obviously a lot but it's a long game and long drawn out thing but that was certainly the lowest moments of captain what significance then did the 2015 series take on because you've just mentioned

about rebuilding a team and I go through some of the names actually that won the Ashes at home in 2015 Lithe, Root, Stokes Butler, Moeen Wood, not necessarily guys that hadn't played Ashes cricket before but certainly hadn't succeeded in

Ash's cricket before or won an issue series. Was that your team did you feel and what satisfaction did it give you to win that series? I think it definitely was my team. It wasn't like, so I'll say to 1113 was still probably had Remmerst of Straussi's team. From the bottom of Sri Lanka,

the bottom when we lost to Schlanca to 14 to winning in India, I know we lost the first game at Lords and we drew here at Trent Bridge, but that series, from that moment on, it felt like my team. You know, like there's a few things we try to be a lot more, probably in my, a bit more in me and my kind of character, you know, good on the field but also good off the field,

like trying to be more accessible, to the crowds, try and give ourselves more time with the public and play with a smile on my face and as much as we could do like and not, I mean Stokesy's taken to a totally different level, I'm not trying to but there's certainly a big shift and

not take ourselves as seriously as a thing but then also trying to develop Ben Stokes Josh Butler and I'm not taking any credit or should take any credit for their development of these world class once in generation players Joe Root but obviously I was part of their

of their thing, given their debut and also their kind of development in test cricket. I'm not taking credit for it, but I feel it was my side. And also if you go back into that series, we were heavy underdogs. Mark Butchard always remind his quote, it said,

watch behind the sofa. Yeah, just watch behind the sofa for the next seven weeks or something like just before the series. It was nice being the underdog actually, even at home, but I just felt if we could, if we didn't get hammered in the first couple of games and like those players could a lot of people haven't played much ashes cricket you know realise these guys were beatable then then we're in then we're in for a shell what does it mean

sitting here at trent bridge because this was the ground where you sealed the ashes this was stewart broads eight for 15 mark would take in the winning wicket um for you as captain having gone through what you had 18 months earlier to then know that you'd won the ashes what does it mean to be here? What memories does it bring back? Trevor Bayes just turned up. I felt very sorry for Peter Moore's at the time. And I didn't agree with the decision, but Straussie was director of cricket and he was like, no, this is my decision. As a captain you don't make those decisions, you're influencing, but

and Trevor came up and Trevor was very, you know, very Australian and he is an Aussie. What he did do, something like when he's chatting about those players, which he knew very well, he was saying all the, all he was very good at just pointing out a few of what they'll be thinking you know like these Australian cricketers won the World Cup Mark Butcher said all what he did

you could look at them as superheroes and actually Trevor because that's you know Trevor just broke it down very quickly and he'll be thinking oh my God last time I bow the jute ball with the jute ball this and that and I'm sure that was a tactical ploy by him

to some of the players who haven't played and we played very well in Cardiff and then got hammered at Lords and it was 1-1 and I think Australians I think well

they've had their one game will come back and Edgperson and here we just dominated from one we bowed unbly well won two important tosses we won here

and Brody wanted to bat and Brody wanted to bat he's got a bat here and I think it's like yeah remember Jimmy has injured as well so like not everything was playing salient but I do remember

Edgeperson here two weeks of not sleeping because after day one we had such good day ones in both these games going back to the I don't want to be remember the captain who you know who lost from almost you know bowled aside out of a

60 test match you win 99 times out of a thousand so if I didn't won that it would have really hurt me but you know we did I didn't much sleep the lads were brilliant and yeah I come back here and I suppose that was my job done wasn't it that was you know I led a side which weren't favourites and probably the only time I ever ever got emotional in the post in the post match, isn't it? Athens asked me a question.

And I choked up, so I suppose that probably showed how much it meant to me and how proud I was of that team, which I thoroughly enjoyed like captain. Did you know then

that you probably wouldn't do another ashes? As captain? Yes, I think deep down. I think, not at that moment, not at that moment, but if you'd have probably,

if you'd have sat down two days later, would you want to go to Australia and do it? I wouldn't have said 100% but, say, 60, 40. So on that 17-18 tour, which turned out to be,

your last Ashes series as an England player. Did you have any inkling it would be your last as an England player? I don't know. I don't know. I know some thoughts have been creeping in in the summer. I'll tell you what that Australia that taught. It hurt me because

I thought I'd go down there. I thought I wasn't captain anymore. Australia's a great place to go and I had this opportunity to go and help Joe Root. It's got a lot of runs at the top of the order. I like batting in Australia. and the three games I just didn't do it

and that hurt me you know going back to what I originally said about not making a difference when it inside and that that got me down not got me down got me like I felt like I was letting the side down because there was no like pressure of captaincy I just go out and do my stuff and bat didn't deliver and that irritated

and that really like that got me down well this is your chance to maybe have a pop at me so first three tests not another one exactly So first three tests, the Ashes were gone in the earliest possible opportunity. And you having been a part of two whitewashes,

obviously you'd won down in Australia, but you'd also lost 5-0 twice. Thanks for a mind. But is there a feeling of, firstly, here we go again. But that test in Perth, the third one, where the Ashes were lost, that was your 150th. And I remember asking you in the press conference before that game, something about your future as an England cricketer. And you put me away.

Good. You deserved it? What did I say? I got it in your magic book there. I'm trying to find what you said to me, but you put me away pretty quickly. Good. And then, as obviously I've got to know you

when you've worked for Test Match Special after you finished playing for England, you sort of said to me before that you thought that speaking to the press wasn't necessarily your job, that your job was to either captain when you were captain or score runs.

And it was interesting to find that out about you, having been put away on a number of occasions in press conferences. So I'd had this tetchy answer from you before Perth. You got 7 and 14 and later said that you were embarrassed by your performance in Perth. Yeah, I just wasn't very good and I'll just go back to say what I said. I felt I'd let Rootie and the side down. My one job, senior batsman, top of the order, was to set the platform and scores and runs.

And I felt like, you know, I was obviously good enough to do that. But I didn't. And so that did hurt. And just go quickly back to the press thing now. And my job was not to talk to the media rightly or wrongly. Now, this is where, you know, when things change, isn't it? When you see things differently, when I was playing, I just wanted to put all my focus on my training, my batting and playing cricket.

This other stuff, which I know it's like what it's like now, where the media gives you, your chance to show people, show people who you are and what you're like. Like now looking back and people see when I was playing and a very different mean, because I don't want to waste any energy, like, if I come to a commentary box, I'll make sure I'm, I give my energy to talking well, hopefully clearly, hopefully it was some kind of point and you're really thinking. And after day in the commentary box on the media, you are, you're tired.

I haven't done anything physically, but you are, you really are on it. But after, say, we did a training day before a game, I went to do the press. You know, I've done my hard work. I was ready. I didn't want to waste my energy going there. I suppose the realisation I know that now is a lot of people come up to me when they speak to me either if I'm doing a Q&A

or just being around the place. I'm like, gosh, you're very different to what I thought you're going to be. And that probably shows I probably went too far. But that was just my method of coping, of trying to play the game longer. So you made 244. Melbourne in the fourth test. After what you said that you felt like you hadn't

delivered, how important was that? Not as much as you'd think because the series was dead and it's all about, you know, it was after the horse of bolton, like that. I'd always think that that innings was after the horse's bolting.

But you were really emotional when you went to three... So Australia in the first innings made 327. You were when you went into bat you made 100 before the close. on day two. You were really emotional in the middle and you went back to the dressing room

and what happened? Yeah, I just got into change room and put a towel over my head and probably in relief and I just started crying, bawling my eyes at it and people who know me and I get a lot of criticism from my wife about you're very unemotional

you're very like just level like things I don't know if I get 100 I don't run around too much and if I get naught I'm you know hopefully I'm not too two down I try and try just how I am is how I operate

I can't help it but for whatever reason I don't know what triggered me but for five minutes I had a tail on my head and I cried my eyes out and I don't know what that was

whether it was relief whether it was going back to that didn't deliver when it mattered A lot had happened to you in Australia over the course of the lot yeah exactly

and that could have been it and I remember people tapping on the back and they did not know what to do because obviously they'd seen me for 150 old test matches or however long people

the changing of being of just probably none of that and then you get the awkward bit of like when I take my towel

off here was when you kind of like you've kind of cried all your tears and what do I do now what did you do I think I'd probably just wipe my eyes

and say can have a beer please and just try to ignore what what had just happened but then I tell you what that I look back

at 100 I don't think I could have played any better that day and the next day was as well as I could bat and to walk off there at the end of day four

you know 240 not out it doesn't get I know the series of dead but I did enjoy that there was no tear at the end of that one that was just that was just a very special moment to score to score as such a big score on the pitchers doing all sorts

was good pitch that doing all sorts well this is that I knew because Simon Mann who always always goes on about it was a horrible test match it was flat you know anyone but we bottom up for 300

and actually, if it hadn't rained, we had a good chance of winning that game in cricket. And we were level seven down, weren't we, I think? So I always fight back and I always bite and I can't help it about it. So if it was that flat, how come on everyone didn't get double hundred? And our back and forth continued. Did it?

It did, in the press after. Good. 244, I think it's the fifth highest score in Englishman's ever made in Ashes test. It's the highest ever score by visiting batter at the MCG. And I'm hoping, because everyone now thinks that picture is so flat, They keep playing on green seamers, so there's no one to get anyone near that. But you came into the press after that and said, actually, I thought I might have been dropped if I hadn't scored some runs.

And I asked you about your future again. And you were in the press conference with Joe Root, and you turned and said something to him quite quietly, you whispered. Yeah. And I thought you'd call me a name. I bet I probably did. And so our TV guys are there, and for the days after, you were slowing that footage down. And did I say anything? I don't know.

We couldn't work it out. I think subsequently, I think what happened is, before you'd gone into the press conference, you'd said, I bet someone asked me about my future. I doperly obliged. I think you turned to Joe and said, told you. Told you said. Told you.

You left Australia, but you've sort of mentioned it already. Did you know that your career was coming to an end, that you'd never play another rashist test? Yeah, I mean, I was, I remember getting to New Zealand, and that was another conversation. I had Chris Silverwood, but I remember lying on the outfield at halfway through the first test match in New Zealand. And I said to Spoons, I don't quite know what I'm doing here now.

You know, I think I'm done. You know, a long way away from all the stuff, isn't it? A long way home, the relentless nature of everything. You know, go to Australia five test matches, a month later, get on a float, go even further. All that kind of thing, and not missing a test match, which I was very proud of that. Probably the one record I am proud of is that they're not missing a test match

and never ever backing out of a challenge or never in my eyes taking the easy option I remember there I was like I think I knew the end was close and to be fair spoons gave me great advice

get home have a month off and then don't make indecisions now and I did go into that summer in 2018 with intentions of not retiring the end of the summer but you know

but playing on and trying to make a difference and stuff But again, you start there and very quickly it knocks down and knocks down. And, you know, it's just quicker. It's a quicker process. And, you know, I knew I was fighting, you know, fighting the embers, I suppose, of it. And famously, that summer, that was it. 100 at the Oval. Alice heavily pregnant watching you as you made.

That turning what turned out to be your last test innings. We've covered your entire Ash's career. How do you reflect on it? Having gone through it, step by step. You've got a smile on your face now. Yeah, I think it's a smile because I'm quite proud of what I've been a part of. You know, some bloody amazing times, some pretty bad times, some pretty average times. And I suppose that just sums it.

I don't think anyone, well, obviously, I think I suppose, well, I was going to say Jimmy and Stuart probably, but they haven't done the captaincy bit of it, I suppose. So I think anything in Ashley's series has thrown at me, I've had every single bit of. of that. And I feel lucky to have been able to experience that. And I think that's what playing for England does and certainly plays in ashes. It gives you an opportunity to go into spaces.

You don't know what's going to happen. You have a chance to be good. You have a chance to be bad. I look back. I think I was four, three, wasn't I? Played seven, one, four, lost three. Just always, whatever happens. I might have lost more test matches

than I'd won against Australia, but sets and legs in darts, isn't it? Like, just enough to say I won more than I lost. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. That was Alistair Cook, who'll be part of the Test Match Special team when the Ashes get underway on the 16th of June. Before that, we're at Lords for England's first test against Ireland on June the 1st. There'll be daily podcasts from TMS throughout the Ashes,

and right now you can catch up with no balls, the IPL, and all things county cricket. You can also listen again to each episode of From the Ashes. Need more than 90 minutes. Hello and welcome to Football Daily. Can't get enough cricket chat. Welcome to Tail Enders. My name is Greg James. This is a cricket podcast for the cricketing curious.

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