Test Match Special - From the Ashes: Steven Finn

Episode Date: May 3, 2023

The second episode of a new series where the BBC’s Chief cricket writer Stephan Shemilt discovers some of the untold stories from the Ashes. In this edition Stephan talks to England fast bowler Steven Finn.Finn knows more than most about the highs and lows Ashes cricket can produce. He might have only played seven Ashes Tests but was involved in three series wins, one of them away from home. He went on two other tours of Australia, one that lasted just nine days and another that ended in the “public humiliation” – his words – of being sent home because he was “not selectable”.As ever, you can read much more on the BBC Sport website and app.

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The bids to buy Manchester United are in, but that is only the tip of this iceberg. I'm Sally Nugent. I'm Simon Stone and I'm Faisal Islam and in our new podcast, How to Buy a Football Club, we'll be keeping you up to date in the battle to buy one of the biggest clubs in the world. Chaotic Manchester United, Manchester United, crisis. It's about politics, debt, diplomacy, geopolitical rivalries. And of course, who can bring silverware back to our How to buy a football club. Listen on BBC Sounds. BBC Sounds, music radio podcast. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Hello and welcome to the Test Match special podcast. I'm Stefan Shemilton, the BBC's chief cricket writer.

This is episode two of From the Ashes, the series that takes a deeper look at some of the stories from cricket's oldest rivalry as we build up to the start of the series between England and Australia in June. Stephen Finn knows more than most about the highs and lows Ash's cricket can produce. The Pace bowler might have only played seven Ashes tests but was involved in three series wins,

one of them famously away from home. He went on two other tours of Australia, one that lasted just nine days because of an injury, and another that ended in the public humiliation, his words, have been sent home because he was not selectable. As ever, you can read much more on the BBC Sport website and app on the latest instalment of From the Ashes, which is all about Steve and Finn.

This is the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Steve, if I ask you to think about playing in the ashes or your involvement in Ashes Cricket, what's the first thing that comes to mind? Well, I think the thing that I remember the most is probably standing on the podium and lifting the ashes. I think that all the hard work and all of the things that go into winning an Ashes series,

the pressure, the furore around it and the build-up to the series and then the battles you have on the pitch and then how exhausted you are at the end of the test series. probably on the podium at the end of it celebrating and holding the urn-a-loft is probably the thing that resonates the most of me. You played seven Ashes Tests, three series wins in that,

and you went on two other tours. How much do you feel that, I don't know, your career was entwined with Ashes Cricket or defined by Ashes Cricket? I'd say probably my best spells came in, Ash's test matches a couple of times felt as though you really have the crowd behind you, especially here at home and being out there on the pitch when the last wicket was taken and then watching us knock off the runs in 2015 at Trent Bridge to win the ashes

was something quite special. But yeah, it's been a funny career, I suppose, three Ashes test matches in the first one that I played in in 2010-11, where I got dropped after three test matches and then we went on to win the next two games. that I didn't play, that felt like a slight anti-climax to me. It's only now when you sit back and look at it, you realize what a special achievement it was as a group of 15 players that were out there at the time. Something that now I look back on with great pride

to be part of that squad and part of that team that did that, especially with the way that Tours have subsequently gone down there. In 2013, again, I played the first test match. Got a couple of wickets, but didn't bowl particularly well and then got replaced and sort of didn't really feel. like I played a massive part in that test match series, but still managed just a hand on the podium and celebrate at the end and grab the glory at the end of the fifth test. And then, yeah, probably my proudest moment in an England shirt was coming in the third test in 2015 and playing the final three tests of that series, really at the business end of it. After having not played a test for a couple of years in the buildup to that, that's probably what I look back at and think one of the business end of it, after having not played a test for a couple of years in the buildup to that. That's probably what I look back at and think one of of the moments that definitely shaped my career and when I look back on it, one of the things that I remember the most.

Start at the start, and you mentioned 10-11, you're 21 years old, part of this team that was on the way to becoming the world number ones, England not won in Australia for so long, and haven't won since then. And am I right in thinking that you'd not even been to Australia before when you went on that tour? Yeah, yeah, never been to Australia. I'd been in the Lions set up and England youth team set-ups and there hadn't been a trip to Australia.

Yeah, so it was very much my first time down there. And, yeah, I think the naivety or my naivety towards the situation and the gravity of the series I think definitely played to my advantage. It's sort of something that I wish I'd been able to retain throughout my career was the naivety that I had when I went down there and just believed that you were going to conquer everything that you came across. And, yeah, certainly playing in that team that we had at the time, it's probably the best cricket team that I've ever played in.

Even looking back on it now and looking at other series that we've won and winning in India, winning in South Africa, things like that. You look at that team that went down there in 2010-11, and that was an outstanding cricket team that I think would stand up against most of the good cricket teams in the history of the game. So, yeah, certainly going down there with those guys, helped ease the nerves.

and then there's a 21-year-old just sort of piggybacking on the back of what was a very good 10 other players that started that series with me in the team and it's something that helped a lot as well. You said, I know there's a bit of naivety that you had. So what was your perception of Ash's cricket at that time?

What did you think it would be like? Well, you feel the intensity, certainly, when you walk out and we got bowled out for, I think, 200 on the first day of the series against Australia at Brisbane and it feels like the stand's going to collapse on top of you when you're in the dressing room because all the Australians are slamming their seats and stamping their feet above you. Yeah, you certainly feel the pressure. You feel how much it means to people. You feel the intensity of Australia. But we were good enough to push back against that

and then very quickly watch the Australians in that series turn on the Australians because they weren't used to ever losing at home. It hadn't been done for a long time before that and it hasn't been done since. So, yeah, being able to turn the tide and I think that you just believed and everyone in that dresser and believed that we were capable of winning that series, but I think particularly when Cook and Strauss and Trot put on all those runs, the 517 in our second innings there, that made us not scared of the Australians and helped alleviate any fears that I might have had about playing against Australia at that time. And you were bowling well? I bowled all right.

I didn't I didn't bowl amazingly. Look back on it again and you think you took six wickets. I think I bowled late 30s overs, like 37 overs or something and got six for 125, which is no disgrace. And at the time, I didn't really celebrate it. I was pretty annoyed that I went for so many runs. I was really harsh on myself and really critical of myself, which again is something that I wish I wasn't throughout my career. I wish that I'd given myself a bit more slack and a bit more leeway when it came to expecting perfection all the time because when you're constantly chasing that, you don't actually get to live in the moment and realize or understand what you've achieved

or help yourself learn from it. So yeah, certainly wish that that was something that I retained better throughout my career. But yeah, looking back on it, I was bowling pretty well. I took six wickets in an ashes test. I bowled with decent pace. I've got a couple of big wickets, a couple of important wickets, and I hit Ricky pointing on the head in the second innings, which, again, is something that not many people have done.

So, yeah, I look back on it now, and you think, yeah, I didn't bowl too badly, but I certainly didn't feel that way at the time. And after three tests, you were the leading wicket-taker on either side, but then you get left out. Yeah, again, one of the hardest moments in my career It was the first real setback that I'd had, I think, ever in my career. I hadn't really ever been left out of a team. I just played consistently in A group cricket,

then broke into the Middlesex first team, and played pretty much every game up until I made my test debut, then played every game up until that Boxing Day test match. And I hadn't really ever crossed my mind that I wouldn't be playing. You know, you just had my entire career until that point at 21 years old, had just always been a starting player in the teams that I played in. So, yeah, when Strauss pulled me aside and told me that I was missing out and that Tim Bresden was playing, who went on to do amazingly

and really help us bowl, or definitely helped us bowl Australia out on that first day in Melbourne, but that was really hard to take, actually. And it was something that I think certainly set me back for a little while, the disappointment, the rejection of it and things like that were just emotions that I hadn't really. ever had to encounter before so yeah it was challenging you know you try and remain upbeat but you know you just have a bottom lip on you a little bit when you're when you're left out at that stage of a series when you want to make an impact and you had visions in your head of of doing great things down

there and being part of it and then not to be out there on the field when when the guys were having a great time of it through those next two test matches was difficult at the time but again you look back on it and you understand that cricket is a game that you need a squad of players and you have to dovetail at the right time in order to win big series. Certainly in 2015 when I came in because Mark Wood was rested for the third test match and then Jimmy Anderson gets injured in that test match and you end up playing the rest of the series, you realize that it takes a squad of players to be able to come together and do something special. So yeah, interesting and strange emotions to experience at the time, but in hindsight, it was the correct call, Tim Bresden and Bold Amazing,

Chris Tremlett Bowled Amazing, and we ended up winning a really monumental series. Was it Christmas Day when Strauss took you to one side? Yeah, yeah, Christmas Day, just before they announced the team in the huddle, we'd done all of our practice and, you know, got told by Strauss and then just took myself to the toilet and cried for a little bit because I was upset because my family were coming out there. They'd arrived, I think, on the 23rd or 24th of December to watch me playing an Ash's test match and then yeah my my mom and sister my dad doesn't travel so my mom and sister were there to watch the test and they ended up watching what didn't

watch me for for those two test matches so yeah again just a number of emotions and things to be upset about and things that at the time I found pretty challenging to deal with we're still able to enjoy it after you after you were left out because one of the things I think that that characterise that tour was not only the fact that the England won, but yeah, I think you had quite a good rapport with the fans and you were celebrating with the Barmy Army. Were you still fully able to take all that in and enjoy it all? Or was there a part of you that was thinking, oh man, I still want to be out on the field? Yeah, it was difficult to really feel immersed in it, I think, because you want to be out there when that final wicket's taken. When Chris Tremlett

knockback I think it was Michael Beers off stump and everyone's charging around the SCG having won the ashes and the atmosphere that there was at that game you want to be out there in the middle experiencing that and everyone on the sideline I think would have experienced the same thing of damn this is amazing and I'm so glad that I'm part of it but I would love to be out there in the middle running around and in that team huddle bouncing around when we'd when we won that test match so yeah you could enjoy it but not to the same extent that you would if you were out there in the middle, certainly. And you wouldn't have known this at the time,

but if someone had said to you, you don't actually play another test match in Australia? Yeah. Well, you believe that you've got the rest of it in the future, don't you? Yeah, it felt like I had plenty more opportunities to go down there and do it. And I wasn't scarred by bad experiences there. Remembering the build-up to that series,

the guys who'd played in the 2006-7 series were all saying how tough it can be, how difficult it is when they're on top of you. Everyone gets on top of you fans, press, walking down the street, everything, they love really rubbing it in your faces when you're not doing well. So to go down there and have that experience, you sort of just believe that when you go down there next time, if you play well and if you're in good form and you've got a settled team,

that you'd be able to do it again and challenge Australia, but that certainly wasn't the case. We're not here to talk about what happened with Graham Smith at Headingley, but I guess it adds context, doesn't it, to what happened for you in between Ashes series. You played one test match in 2013 when the Ashes were won back in the UK, but in between times you'd had that experience whereby that test match at Headingley against South Africa, Graham Smith had complained for you knocking over the stumps in your delivery stride,

which ultimately led to a change in the laws of the game. But how much did that whereby, if a bowl of done, does knock over the stumps in their delivery stride, it's now called a no-ball, whereas before it was actually seen as quite a good thing for a bowler to get close to the stumps. How much had that affected your bowling in between the end of the 2010-11 series and the beginning of the 2013 series? Well, yeah, it made me change my technique. It made me change my run-up, maybe change the fundamentals of what made me a good bowler at the time, rhythm and whippy pace and bounce were the things that made me a good bowler in that period and had a lot

of success in that period in white ball cricket and test match cricket for England and yeah it felt as though you were progressing through your career and and then that happens and yeah it makes you what forces you the laws of the game change so quickly and I was playing every format for England I was playing every game in every format for England at that stage in 2012 and you just don't have time to go away and address the problems that you have technically. So you find short-term fixes like put in a plaster over a big leak or something. You sort of just try and get through and bumble through and went from series to series to tour to tour. Because again, there wasn't rotation. Then your team basically played every format. And that's what I was doing. I was on every

tour. And you don't have an opportunity to go back to the drawing board and actually work fundamentally on the small change that was required, which was not jumping in towards the stump so much, which should be something so simple to fix, but you need a few weeks to be able to do it. And I was never afforded that luxury. So I looked for a short-term fix, changed my run-up, shorten my run-up. That messed with the flow and the rhythm of my action. Everything got shorter to the point where, yeah, it became really hard to compete in international cricket and sort of went through the public humiliation of being sent home from the 2013-14.

Ashes series in Australia. You're still a regular in the team, though, in the run-up to 2013, like you just said, you're playing every format. And even in that first test, you took the new ball in front of Stuart Broad in the first innings. Well, only because he got hit on the shoulder. I would have been first change otherwise. And again, we had Australia in a bit of trouble that night, actually.

We had them two or three down, I think. I got two of them, two and two balls. And, yeah, again, at that time, you think, wow, this is amazing. The crowd were behind you. You were sort of run into the crease. I was on a hat trick at one stage. you're running to the crease and the crowd is just carrying you in. It's the most amazing feeling in the world when that happens.

Just missed out on a hat trick. And yeah, after the first night of that game, you think, right, I'm back here. I feel in good rhythm. I bowled with good pace. I've got two good players out. What are the next few days going to bring? Did you feel right, though, because of what you'd gone through over the previous 12 months? I mean, your figures in that game were two for 80, naught for 37.

You said it before that you got left out after that first test and didn't play again in that Yeah, I didn't bowl well enough. And again, the team at the time was about restricting the opposition and not going for runs. That was the bowling units mantra was not bowling it all over the place and trying to take wickets all the time. It was grind them down. I think we got criticized a lot in that series for the manner in which we played. I've never seen a three nil ashes or four nil ashes victory, whatever it was in the end, celebrated less than that one was. And I think that that was a sad indictment of the fact that two ashes series were scheduled for the same year. And the manner of cricket at the time, you look at the way that the team at the moment has captured the public's imagination. We all just wanted to wing. That's what we were programmed to do. We were a hard-nosed team that were programmed to win cricket game after cricket game and then move on to the next one and forensically try and do it again. The team now play with a bit more emotion, which I think is amazing. It's the way that cricket should be played. But that method at the time is what worked for that team that won that

Ash's series. So yeah, I think there are a number of factors. I certainly knew that there was something wrong underneath the surface. I was fighting battles with myself every day to sort of try and be the bowler that I was 12 months previously, but was also beating myself up for the changes that I had made that had made me a worse bowler. And yeah, you go to bed every night, questioning yourself and looking at yourself in the mirror and sort of asking yourself, what have you done? Yeah, and that's where earlier in the podcast when I said about wanting to try and strip myself of looking to be perfect the whole time, it was certainly striving for that perfection that ends up driving you up the wall. What sort of state were you in both with your bowling and your mental

state around your bowling when you then got on the plane for that Ashes tour later on that year? So for anyone who can't remember in 2013 and 2013-14, like you've just said, there was back-to-back Ashes series scheduled, so the Ashes cycle was tweaked slightly. So England won in the summer of 2013, then immediately defended the Ashes in Australia that winter. You'd played the first test, you didn't play any of the next four, then you were in the squad to tour Australia. What state were you in when you got on that plane? I suppose the optimist in me was always thinking that you were just going to find rhythm again.

because at that time I hadn't really had a period in my career where I was horribly out of rhythm or out of form. I'd always go back to Middlesex or be bowling in the nets and feel great. But yeah, as I got on the plane, I believed that I could make things better. And I thought the good memories of Australia would help me feel better and find that rhythm again. So yeah, there was a degree of optimism when I got on the plane that we were going to go down and be able to defend back-to-back ashes. we were all over Australia in that summer series. They didn't really look like winning a game. So, yeah, everyone went down there in a very positive frame of mind

looking to win the ashes again. When did you know that you didn't have that rhythm? Probably the first warm-up came, to be honest. I remember I didn't ball very well against W.A. in Perth. You always land in Perth and play the first game of the tour against Western Australia. And I remember it just didn't quite feel right. I think ended up about a few full tosses and a few drag downs and just yeah something wasn't

quite clicking and then sort of sent triggers to my brain that you need to practice a lot harder than everyone else you need to try and get to training early to do more drills before people get there and yeah again at that stage of the tour I was just thinking right work hard get your head down find your way back into rhythm bowl yourself back into rhythm in the nets or in practice when people aren't there. And yeah, my mentality was still, the harder that you work, the more likely you are to end up succeeding and, or more likely you are to come back into rhythm and be the bowler that you want to be again. Got your figures from the warm-up games. Brilliant. Do you want to know them?

Well, I know I'd have got Fyfer at the SCG, but that was mid-series. And again, I bought some good balls in there, but I knew that something wasn't right, but I couldn't quite put my finger run in. So the WA game that you referred to, first innings 23 overs, one for 123, second inning's 10 over as 1 for 53, then there was onto a four-day game against a cricket Australia 11, it was 28.4 over as 1 for 103, then 20.5 over as 3 for 88. And just to sort of labour the point, is this all going back to how you'd had to change your approach, your delivery stride, how you delivered with the ball because you couldn't get as close to the stumps as you were previously? I mean, yes, it is.

It's just I changed things in my action at the time that made my action a lot more rushed and a lot less rhythmical, which is what I relied on a lot. I relied on using my big levers and allowing myself to gather pace to the crease and then sort of exploding through it. But when I changed to a shorter run-up, that messed with the fundamentals of my bowling action. It changed those things. it meant that the timing of the way that my arms went up and then came over was messed up and because I'd compounded that by just playing cricket and cricket and more cricket

that and at the time it worked like for the first month and a half two months of bowling like that I bowled unbelievably quick in New Zealand that bowled all right in the test matches did really well in the one day as in the T20s and sort of came back from that thinking right I've gone up a notch here as a bowler people I mean, I remember doing interviews with people at the time in New Zealand and people were saying, oh, do you think you're going to bowl 100 miles an hour? And in my head, I never thought I was going to bowl 100 miles an hour. But it was a talking point and it was what people were talking about at the time. So, yeah, it was like a real seesawing of emotions because by the time that you realize the things that you've changed are not the right things for you,

it's too late because it's ingrained in you. It's ingrained in your muscle memory. I'd played international cricket bowling off that short run up. changing the flow of my action and then as I went through the 2013 season it just compounded itself kept playing kept playing never had time out and then got to Australia a bit frazzled and a bit confused about how I was going about things and then you're just constantly chasing your tail you're constantly looking for this gold bullet of information people on the tour naturally want to help you they see you struggling they see you sat in the changing rooms crying they see you

they ask you about how your bowling's going and you just burst into tears and and yeah you sort of they can see you going through this so everyone wants to help you but by people helping you they give you ideas which then makes you chase your tail even more so yeah you just end up in this really confused state not really understanding how you got there but also still wanting to work hard to try and put it right so yeah by halfway through that ashes series I was so mentally exhausted from not sleeping because I was up crying all night about why I couldn't both of all like I wanted to, you're there. Every time someone asks you about it in training, anyone random saying,

oh, what's what you're working on here? And you'd get really weird about it and upset. Yeah, it was an unbelievably confusing time for me in my life going through that whilst also reading people writing about it in the press that I couldn't keep myself away from. And then, yeah, definitely the kindest thing in the end on that tour was to send me home. It was only in the one day series, actually, at the end of the ashes. I got picked for the Whiteball series. And yet, it was only a few games into that, that I think Ashley Charles saw that and just thought we need to send this bloke.

I'd read that you weren't allowed to bowl up batters in the net. Is that right? No, I did. I did. There were times where I didn't want to because I didn't really know where it was going. I didn't want to hurt anyone. I didn't want to drag one down and hit someone in the head. You know, there was an element of that about it.

And, yeah, embarrassment. There were a lot of emotions going through me there because. you know in the build-up to the series you're sort of half talked up as being one of the people that could help England win the series can bowl 90 miles an hour can hit the splice of the bat hard and pretty fit so could run in for most of the day but yeah all these things that you think you're that I was going to be or that I thought I was going to be I was the complete opposite so yeah it was embarrassment ashamed sad yeah the whole heap of emotions that I went through every single day in that tour that in the end ended up taking their toll on me and and had to get

sent home. What about when you're away from cricket? No, you can't really get away from cricket on a tour, but when you are not at the ground, when you're shutting that hotel door and you've just got four walls and a television to look at, how is that? Could you ever get away from it? Or is it constantly? No, no, in your own head. I mean, anyone who's experienced mental health problems or other issues with the way that they think or their thought processes and stuff like that I think understand you never fully escape those thoughts they're all encompassing they come to you they could come to you at two o'clock in the morning five o'clock in the morning you could just wake up bolt up right and and yeah be thinking about it and overthinking and I'm someone who does think about

things a lot that might seem might not seem like it sometimes but I am quite a deep thinker about cricket and about myself and the way that I was doing things at that time so yeah certainly spend a lot of time and it just consumed me by the end of the tour yeah and it was the kindest thing to send me home i mean it wasn't handled that great in the press and the headlines and stuff and the articles that people wrote and the mean words that people wrote about me not really knowing the situation still hurt me and i still don't like the you know not a grudge holder but certainly there's some of the people that wrote unkind things about me then i'm not the biggest fan of now and and that's fine um it's 10 years ago now i've moved on from it but yeah certainly

at the time I found it very difficult to yeah to really want anything to do with cricket because you're fighting yourself you're just embarrassed that you're an international sports person who had a good record at the time in all formats of cricket and you're there on an ash's tour and yeah you just feel pathetic yeah and I wish I'd ask for help sooner to be honest I wish I hadn't put myself through three months of heartache and three months of embarrassment and being ashamed and stuff like that I wish I'd wish I'd ask for help sooner to be honest I wish I I hadn't put myself through three months of that because even now 10 years later, you're still unraveling those things that you clogged up in your mind back then.

The support and the mental health support and the psychological support around the game then is nothing like it is now because I think it was probably that tour and Jonathan Trot going home and me going home that really triggered people to realize that actually being away from home and playing cricket for 12 months a year, year on year on year, is a very challenging thing to do. And now I'm glad to see that the attitude towards that in cricket has changed. And there was the other, obviously, the other issue of the team was slowly unraveling as well on the way to losing 5-0.

Well, yeah, I mean, Mitchell Johnson had a lot to say about that. He pulled outstanding in that series was probably the best, most consistent fast bowling that I've seen live and half glad that I didn't have to go out there and face it, to be honest. It was unbelievable good fast bowling. And yeah, they didn't like the way that we played in England and how we won that series, I think. And they had a point to prove. They had the disappointment of losing the 10-11 series. And they had that to make up for. And yeah, I think there was a number of factors that sort of came together at the perfect time to make Australia then in that series a very formidable team. And then for the next few years, they were very formidable as well.

You said it was the kindest thing to do to send you home but it wasn't handled particularly well and there was the headlines and the words that Ashley Giles used which is not selectable is that what you're referring to about it not being handled particularly well or was that the right description

was that the right thing for him to say? Well I mean yeah it is literally the I couldn't be selected to play a game of cricket for England I don't think because I wouldn't have done myself any favours or I wouldn't have helped the team

try and win a game So yeah, I mean, it was, but whether everyone needed to know that at the time and it to be back page news on every newspaper, I'm not sure. There was an article at the time from someone who was quite prominent in the Players Association that saying things like they didn't know whether I'd ever play cricket again, let alone play for England again and just stuff like that, that when you read it, when you're in it and you're living it and you're embarrassed as it is and you're ashamed as it is that you've let everyone down and you've let yourself down, you've let your family down, your teammates. the coaches, everyone, the fans, you feel like you've let everyone down and you're ashamed about that. But I was unbelievably ashamed and I still am about what happened down there. And it still is quite emotional when I talk about it. You know, you wanted a helping hand along the way and you felt like you're getting battered from all angles and that's outside your own head and inside your own head. So yeah, it was again, a pretty difficult time for me

to have to deal with but I wouldn't be the character or the person that I am. am today and in my role in what I do at Sussex now and trying to help people and help people get better and still play myself without those experiences I think that I wouldn't wouldn't be the person I am today and I'm glad about them it is what it is I there's no hard feelings from me you know it's it's just professional sport and you accept that that scrutiny comes with it and I was lucky I you know we're talking here about a bad time in my career I had a lot of very good times in my career as well that I'm very proud of. So, yeah, it's something that you accept.

You're going to have peaks and troughs in your career. And unfortunately, I lived my worst trough out in the public eye for everyone to see it. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. There's more from Stephen Finn in a moment, including how he came back from the lowest point on an Ashes tour to playing a key role in victory over the Australians just 18 months later. That's after this. BBC 5 Live. I'm Mette Antonio.

I'm Callum Wilson, and this is the Footballers Football Podcast. We'll be discussing transfers, injuries, goals. Oh, no, no, no, it'll be me talking about the goals. We'll be joined by Football Fanatic, Ricky Hayward Williams. This is the only place where you can hear what top professional players think about all things Premier League. Hold on. My agents call me. This could be a point.

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The high-performance Defender Octa, 626 horsepower twin turbo V8 engine and intelligent 6D Dynamics Air Suspension. Learn more at landrover.ca. BBC Sounds. This is the TMS podcast. BBC Radio 5 live. Did you think you'd play for England again? Yeah, because I'm stubborn.

I was 24, I think, or 25 at the time and very stubborn. So, yeah, I thought I'd play for England again. I didn't know how long it would take. But yeah, I truly believed that I was going to play for England again. I believed that I just got myself into a technical hole and built such a bad habit around my bowling that I would be able to unravel it and I just needed time.

And I went back home and luckily I was given time and given support by Angus Fraser and Richard Johnson at Middlesex, both of those guys. Richard Johnson in particular spent hours and hours of early mornings at Lords with me, unraveling the things that I let get into my action. And I'm very grateful to him. Yeah, so certainly it was pretty tricky and difficult at the time to try and see a way through all the mess. but the thing that kept me motivated and kept me going back to Lords every single morning to do the work with Richard Johnson was that end goal of playing for England again.

You were doing your work at Middlesex after you got sent home, you said lots of early mornings in the nets at Lords. You were back playing first class cricket by the April of 2014 and you were back playing for England that summer back in the white ball side. Yeah, yeah.

And again, I never doubted that I would be good enough to play for England again. And I think, yeah, I never doubted that it would be possible for me to do it again. I just felt as I needed that time. And, yeah, those three months or four months that I was at home, I think I had a month where I did nothing. My girlfriend at the time was from Limston in Devon. So I just went down there a lot of the time and spent time with her family and just escaped and left my phone at home and went on dog walks and things like that and just completely got away from the game. I kept an eye on how my mates were doing in the England team every now and again after the games.

But I wouldn't actively sit down and watch it and analyze it, which I think did me a lot of good at the time. And her and her family support and my family support through that period were things again that I'll be very grateful for. But yeah, the buildup to that season, there was never any doubt in my mind that I wouldn't be starting the season for Middlesex if selected. I wanted to play a full part. I didn't want to shy away from the hard work of wanting to get back out there. And that period, again, was a time where I learned a lot about myself. I learned a lot about how I trained. I hadn't really had to question that before.

And, yeah, I learned a lot about my game at that time and how I responded to things as human being. And, yeah, sort of tried to take that through the rest of my career. So you're back in the England whiteball team at the end of 2014. There was a lot of white ball cricket played that winter. It was the World Cup in 2015, in Australia, in New Zealand. We know how that went. You must have been sick of the sight of Australia by that point.

But then you've also, you're in the White Bull team at the start of the Bayless era, 400 at Edgebast and against New Zealand and all those things. What was the steady build up to your recall to test cricket in the summer of 2015, like? And did you know you were on track to get back into the test set up? Well, yeah, I certainly felt like 2015, after that World Cup and, the disappointment of it, certainly came back and again reassessed a few things, worked on some new skills from a bowling perspective, worked on an outswinger, which ended up getting me a lot of wickets in that 2015 Ashes series. But, you know, 2015, early 2015, I knew I was

in good form. I started the season well for Middlesex. I've just felt as though I was just on song. I had rhythm. I had snap. I had my pace and bounce. So the things that I saw as big characteristics of my bowling. And I bowled well in the build-up to that Ashes series. I was in and amongst squads at the beginning part of that summer, played the ODI series against New Zealand and sort of exercised some demons of the cake tin in 2015 World Cup against New Zealand where McCullum slapped us all over the place. We've got good figures in the first ODI, I think, four for thirty-four in the first ODI at Edgebaston and gained a lot of confidence from that. That, you know, again, that I could compete at international level against people who'd smashed me about a few

months before. And then everything really snowballed that summer. Yeah, I felt in huge confidence and I felt confident that if I did get a call up in that Ashes series, that I could play a big part in trying to help us regain them. So what were the emotions when you got told you're in the test squad and then when you're in the test team for that third test at Edgebaston? Well, nerves, I think naturally. I think naturally you're sat there and you sort of thinking Oh, are these people going to remember what happened in Australia in 2013, 14? Well, I do remember a few of the Australians reminding me of that when I went out there asking me if I was going to go crying home and stuff like that whilst I was out there in the middle,

which again, is natural. It's an Ashes series you both want to win. But yeah, there was a confidence about me that summer, I think, and the way that I was bowling and the way that I was playing that I felt as though that I was going to play a decent part in that series if I got the opportunity. When did you find out you're playing? It's a good question, actually. I think I found out a few days before the Edge Baston test. I'd been in the squad for all the other games, the Cardiff game.

I bowed pretty well in the nets and Trevor Bayless saw me bowl, I think. I think he said something like, yeah, this bloke can bowl, but we'll sort of wait to get him in the team because Mark Wood was bowling well and quick at the moment at the time. And we were both competing for the same spot. I think I went away and got four for against Somers. set for middle sex just before the second test match at Lords and then I sort of knew that they were back-to-back test the first two. Mark Wood would probably more than likely be rested so I knew that there was a good chance that I was going to play and I just sort of redid myself

mentally in the week building up to it. I managed to break my finger catching a ball at Lords in the second test match had to go away and have like a little plastic cast made for that but it was just a chip on the top of my index finger on my left hand so it didn't affect anything I did if I was an all round I probably would have struggled to play

but because I batted 10 or 11 it didn't really make any difference so let's not talk your batting down Finney come on we'll remember the half century and Dunedin well yeah that feels like a long long time ago now and when you're facing someone balls as quick as Mitchell Stark

and those guys I think it becomes a totally different kettle of fish for you as a tail ender but yeah It was, yeah, chipped my finger in the buildup to that, but always knew that I was in good form and good rhythm. So for a week before or a week or so before, when I knew that there was half a chance that Woody would be rested, I was mentally preparing myself to be at the back of my mark, very nervous, excited, but really nervous and just wanting to get into the game. Luckily, we won the toss and bowled. I think we won the toss at Edgebaston, but we definitely bowled first. And I got the ball within, I think, the first ten overs. So I got an early introduction.

into the game, which was good captaincy by Alistair Cook at the time. And yeah, I sort of stood at the back of my mark and felt like I'd been preparing for this for a little while, a lot of nerves, but at the time I just said to myself, let yourself go and trust all of the hours of hard work that you've done over the last two

years to get you back to this point to standing at the back of your mark for England in a test match. Just trust it. And thankfully, I could trust it that day. Got Steve Smith in your first over. I did, yeah, he hit me for four the ball before, actually. It was a bit of a floaty, half-folly, and he hit it for four. But again, you're walking back to your mark and you're thinking, just trust your process, trust what you're doing.

You've been bowling well. You've been bowling good deliveries to good players in domestic cricket. You couldn't be better prepared for this test match now. So keep trusting what you're doing and drag my length back a little bit and thankfully, just pushed at it and edged it to first slip and caused the big outpouring of emotion from my part. Yeah, that celebration, you've got. both double fist pump, huge roar inside of Edgebaston. Can you even describe what that feeling was like,

what all came out at that moment? No, to be honest, it's a bit of a blur. I sort of remember the before and after, and I remember certain points in that game, important points or important junctures in that game and that series. But certainly, yeah, when I took that wicket, it was just, I'm not really a very emotional person when I celebrate, but for some,

and it just came out of me and that was my celebration so yeah it's a good picture i think i've got it someone's framed it up and michael clark as well stumps splattered by yorker length ball that just shaped away from him a touch yeah accidental yorker they're dangerous those deliveries but again you early in batters innings if you're bowling good pace and swinging it if you get it full and at the stumps you're half a chance of being in the game and that was just the general game plan was to try and get it as full as possible and bring the outside edge and stumps into play as much as you possibly could and yeah thankfully he missed him when were you getting the snipey comments from the Aussies when did those happen when you'd walked out to bat or was it yeah walking out to bat

walk past um I can't well I do remember but I'm not going to say but yeah walk past a few guys who um who were in the field and yeah sort of a few sniper comments but again you you expect that it's an ashes series and the series were well and truly on the line then we bowled very well in the first innings, James Anderson, especially, bowed very well to bowl Australia out in that first innings. And at that time, we knew that we needed to bat well to win the game. And they knew that they desperately needed wickets. So, so yeah, there were a lot of emotions out there from everyone. And it was good competitive Ashes Cricket. And it got even better for you with the ball in the second innings. Australia were putting on a little bit of a partnership. England's

chase was starting to look a little bit dicey. Then you got to work. Six for 70. Smith again, Clark again, talk us through the emotions of that spell. Yeah, again, you sort of just build your way into it, I think. I was fortunate with my first wicket, I think Steve Smith, Top Edge DePaul for my first wicket in that innings, and then you just gain confidence. I've always been a guy who gains confidence from doing things, and that's why when I went through my travel periods, I would try and gain confidence from repeatedly doing the thing that I wanted to, um, that I wanted my body to do. Um, and yeah, when I'm bowling, if I get on a

role, you gain and, you're growing confidence and, and you build and develop as you go through a spell. And yeah, the top edge of Steve Smith in that first, um, few overs certainly set me off and running. And, and then, yeah, as you grow into it, you, you've got the crowd behind you. The crowd at edgebaston is fantastic for, um, spurring you on and getting behind you. And the noise of the crowd just sort of carries you to the crease. And that's what I felt that day. It's one of the best feelings in sport. And it's one of those things that you chase as a player. You know, you've probably only experienced it a few times in your career. But when you're really on top in a big game and the crowd are there willing you on and cheering you on and carrying you to the crease. I think it's one

of the most special feelings in sport and one of the things that you chase. So yeah, I remember that quite vividly from that day. I remember bowling some decent balls in there as well. I've had some of the reports from the time and they'd obviously gone from the line was from unselectable to unplayable yeah i mean i got fed up with those and that followed me around for a couple of years which again you understand the journalist point of view to have to talk about the bad times but yeah i think maybe sometimes we can unnecessarily focus on the bad times too much and certainly my mindset was of the fact that i wanted to put that in the past and and wanted to be judged about what I was doing right there and right now,

not what had happened two years previously. So, yeah, I found it frustrating that people, all they would write was, it would always have that word in it, unselectable, unselectable, unselectable. And that really wound me up, actually. And again, it's another reason why I think as a player, you shouldn't ride the highs and the lows of the press too much because it can affect your mood. The best players that I've ever seen are able to keep their,

mood and their level of equilibrium just constant and those are the guys who've dealt with the ups and downs better in their career. So yeah, the headlines were nice. They'd changed a lot from what they were two years previously, but probably something that I still shouldn't have been reading. Your man of the match, did you give yourself any time to reflect on the journey that you'd been on over that 18-month period from where you'd been in Australia when you're in such a low moment and you'd been in tears in the dressing room

to that point where you'd bowled England to an Ashes victory. Yeah, well, you certainly allow yourself to savour the good times when you've had troubled times, which again is a reason why I think that everyone, you're always in a much better position for having experienced those things

because it allows you to appreciate the moments that you do end up doing things well and having successful days, it allows you to, yeah, to really savour those and enjoy them. So I think, yeah, I can't remember exactly what I did. I remember going back to my room with the match ball, the man of the match medal. And, yeah, just sort of sit in there and thinking, wow, that was what a turnaround that's been and, yeah, how proud I was of myself for coming through that. I think I remember having a decent night out in Birmingham, actually after it as well.

Still got them? Much ball and much medal? Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're on my mantelpiece in my living room. I don't keep that much cricket memorabilia around. I've sort of allowed myself a shelf where I've got my England cap, my test cap, my ODI cap, some all my three ashes winners medals, some tournament winners medals that I've got from domestic cricket. And a commemorative cap from that game.

So, yeah, there are mementos in the house. I try and keep them few and far between. But, yeah, of my most special memories, that's probably the best one. And the next test, Stuart Broad, does what he does at Trent Bridge. England have won the Ashes. You've played in all three test matches, the third, fourth and fifth at the end of that series. And you're an Ashes winner again. Yeah, yeah, and that one felt like a real Ashes win.

I was on the pitch, the moment that we took the last wicket in that Trent Bridge test match. And, yeah, being out there and celebrating, the team and walking off with the team at the end of that. It is one of, again, the greatest memories spotting my family in the crowd at Trent Bridge and going and giving them a hug when we were doing our lap and the RAF did a fly over. Obviously, Stuart Broad's spell was one of the most unbelievable bowling spells that I've been lucky enough to witness and I got to sit there or stand there at midoff and watch it all. It was unbelievable. It was amazing. So, yeah, and just really after having had a

tricky couple of years in the build-up to that, or not a tricky couple of years. I had a tricky six months in 2014 sort of coming back from those setbacks and then really trying to build up towards playing test cricket for England again. You certainly allow yourself the opportunity to sit there and savour the moment and yeah, I've got lots of great memories from that summer and particularly that series. What was that like when you got to your family in the crowd at Trent Bridge? Well, it's probably the most emotional I've ever seen my dad. Yeah, to go see him with half a tear in his eye was almost set me off there on the spot. So, yeah, saw my mum, saw my dad and sort of gave them a hug over the railings.

And it was pretty hectic down there. So, yeah, I had my quick moment with them and then sort of cracked on. And they came up to the dressing room, actually, in Trent Bridge. I think one thing, that series, we made a real effort before it to connect with players from the past. So we had dinner with Bob Willis, Ian Botham, great ex-players who'd had played huge parts in the history of English cricket.

We made an effort to reconnect with them and not get them on our side. I think it's the wrong way to say it, but we wanted to make them feel part of what we were doing. And that was a real effort we made that summer with them. And then also to try and get families

more involved in what was going on because of the sacrifices that they've made along the way. So, yeah, for my parents to come into the dressing room at Trent Bridge, come into the dressing room at the Oval, to be there holding the Ashes Earn and stuff when we're celebrating, I think, is something that makes it extra special. You're back as an England test regular.

What turned out to be your last test match was in 2016 in Bangladesh, just over a year on from that Ashes win in 2015. I think you'd suffered a few injuries along the way that meant that you didn't play a test match again until you got recalled for the squad for 2017. 18, as it turned out to be Ben Stokes' replacement, he didn't go to Australia because of what happened in Bristol. You must have been going there with all sorts of optimism and maybe wanting to write a few wrongs, and your tour lasted nine days. Yeah, well, I didn't even realise it was that long, to be honest.

It was, yeah, very brief that trip to Australia. And then the knee injuries that have sort of been, or they have been annoying for me since then, since 2017. they keep popping up every now and again. So, yeah, you go there with a degree of optimism because you do believe that it's going to be the time that you can beat Australia again because if you don't go down there with that optimism and that hope and that wanting to go there and do it,

then you've got no chance. I hadn't had a fantastic domestic season, but I took an eighth for, I think, in the second last game of the summer, which gave me a lot of confidence, bold with good pace. And, yeah, to take that many wickets in an innings is a confidence booster, obviously.

So, yeah, it went down there with a degree of optimism about us being able to win the ashes again, but, yeah, sort of bent over to pick a ball up in the side of the net. Whilst I was batting, actually, off Paul Collinwood was flicking to me, and I tucked one off my hip into the leg side and just went to pick the ball up out of the net and ended up in a heap on the ground and had to have surgery to move a osteocondroma

from the inside of my knee and cartilage that was floating around and that had got locked just as a result. I was bending over to pick the ball up. So, yeah, very brief and short-lived that trip to Australia. What was the emotion when you got told, I don't know, you're out of the tour or when you climbed on that plane again to be leaving a tour early? Yeah, well, I think you know.

The second you do an injury like that, you know that it's bad news because I'd never felt pain or experienced something like that before in my life where you couldn't put any weight whatsoever through your left leg and you're having injections to try and find a short-term fixed it so that you can fight through and play a part in the series but yeah you sort of just have to accept that getting injured is part of sport i'd been very lucky actually up until that point that i'd had no real major injuries i'd had a few smaller ones um but never any major injuries that had required surgery or had required um a significant period of rehabilitation like that one did um so yeah

you sort of leave that tour feeling optimistic that this is your chance to get this right and then come back and bounce back again but I think well I know I never did I was never involved in an England squad or team again and that's been that just gone through all your ashes highs and lows

Finney how'd you feel about it how do you reflect on it reflect on it all as a whole a whole career a whole ashes experience well I'm very fortunate to have stood there on the podium and lifted the ashes three times, however big or small part I played in the series. I've stood there on the podium and looked out whilst the cameras and the crowd are looking at you and lifted that earn and celebrated with my teammates. And there are a lot

of players that haven't done that once, let alone three times. So to experience that and to have those as life memories, the things that I'm very proud of, to have played a decent part in a couple of those series, again, it's something that I'm very proud of and things that when you finish your career they're the sort of things that you look back on with great fondness and the less good times or the bad times you you hope that you've managed to learn enough from those and develop enough as a human or as a person from those to either help people when they're going through similar sort of troubles or struggles and help yourself for whatever you go on to do next in your life as well so yeah even though they weren't pleasant at the time I'm grateful that I've

experience those lows because it makes me very grateful for the good times that I've had. This is the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. That was Stephen Finn. He'll be part of our team on radio and TV this summer. You can read much more on the BBC Sport website and app. And we'll be back with another episode of From the Ashes on the Test Match special podcast next week. Why is it called a smart speaker? Because it's smart. You ask it to do something and it'll be done. Just say, smart speaker, ask you.

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