Test Match Special - Glenn McGrath: “if England go to Adelaide 2-0 down it's game over”

Episode Date: December 1, 2025

Michael Vaughan, Glenn McGrath and Melinda Farrell join Mark Chapman to preview the second Test of the Ashes in Brisbane. Is this now or never for bazball? Can England adapt to the pink ball? How do both sides bowling attacks look? Could England turn to a spinner? Australia have had staggering pink ball success but their only day-night loss came at the Gabba. Plus, Mitchell Starc is just three wickets away from surpassing Wasim Akram as the most successful left-arm quick in the history of the game.

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a fair exchange rate with no extra markups. Be smart. Join the 15 million customers who choose Wise. Download the Wise app today or visit Wise.com. T's and C's Apply. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Hello and welcome to the test match special pod. The second Ashes test gets underway 4.30am on Thursday morning. So Wednesday night into Thursday morning, ball by ball commentary with the TMS team on Sports Extra and on BBC Sound. It's a day-night test in Brisbane. As I said this the other day, from our point of view in the UK is brilliant because you get, I mean if you're getting up sort of for breakfast, you're going to get a good four or five hours of play all until midday UK time. Now that

then also depends how much you want to watch and how painful it will be. But anyhow, England won down in the series after they were blown away in two days by Australia in Perth. We'll look ahead to Brisbane over the next hour in the company of Glenn McGraw and Michael Vaughn and Melinda Farrell. The problem I am finding, Michael, with a two-day test, means that you end up not far off trying to avoid doing the same show for three weeks until the next one comes around. Yeah, good evening It's not often that I say When I come to Australia I want to see a bit more cricket

I'm actually bored of playing golf So if England could play a little bit better in Brisbane Let us have a bit more cricket Take it to the fourth or fifth day It'd be much appreciated I am intrigued Glenn actually Because it sort of On the one hand feels a long time ago already

That first test Because it was so short And we've waited for this one I'm wondering Have things calm down in the Australian media over the last few days because that first test now feels like such a long time ago? Yeah, I think it's calmed down a little bit. It's, yeah, it does feel a long time ago.

And unlike Forney, I appreciated a couple extra days at home. But, yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Especially when Stokes has come out and said they're going to, you know, they're going to up it than, you know, even more than what they did in that first test. but I haven't seen too much of a build-up. I know we're only a couple of days away now. It will start really building up and especially going to a day-night test match

where things are supposed to happen even quicker than it would in a normal test. So, yeah, it's going to be exciting a few days. I'm going to hear from Ben Stokes very shortly. Glenn and Michael in Sydney at the moment, Mel, in Brisbane. So what are the conditions like in Brisbane at the moment, Mel? What is the forecast looking like? Well, before I say that, good evening.

and can I just say how honoured I feel to be on the show with two such highly respected has-beens. I myself and never was. So it's a real privilege for me as it never was to be with such illustrious has-been. Look, it's as you would expect in Brisbane. It is steamy, a little bit nicer actually yesterday, but it's typical Brisbane steamy.

There are storms around. They tend to come in and leave quite quickly, and we know how good the drainage is at the gabber. So there's not really too much forecast around. There may be the odd storm that builds up, but hopefully it won't interrupt play too much. One thing that I will say is that we do expect usually a pink ball test to go very quickly. I am not so sure.

I am wondering if we're going to see a pig, that's a lot more batter friendly than we might normally expect. A little bit like the pink ball test in 1617 when Pakistan played and they made 450 in the final innings. They fell short of Australia's target by 39 runs. I've been talking to one of the Australian players who does feel that this looks a bit similar. Maybe it might be a little bit overcooked. So it might not be what perhaps we would traditionally expect.

from a pink ball test in Adelaide. And actually, I'll come on to the pink ball side of things in a little while. But as far as the pitch in the wicket is concerned, and we can do batting and bowling points of view here. So the pitch curated, Dave Sandersky at Brisbane, has said all indications are with the bit of heat around, the wicket will dry out a lot quicker.

So you've got to make sure you keep enough moisture in it to last five days. We try and make our wickets pretty much the same for four and five. day cricket. The aim is to provide a wicket where all players get a chance to perform their skills, so that all facets of the game come into the match.

Just park the pink ball, if you can Michael. What's Brisbane like to batting at? It can be hard at times with the ball just bouncing just off that length. I'll give England a little tip playing the big straight batty drives on the up early to a new

pink ball, red ball, white ball in the gab is always a high risk. They went for that strategy in Perth and it didn't quite come off. So it's generally a good cricket wicket. And if it is going to be a good pitch, I mean, all the talk of maybe no spin. I'd be staggered if Nathan Lyon doesn't play,

the pitch is good because the pink ball does get soft. And you're going to need someone about quite a lot of overs, particularly with the heat. So I would think that Australia will play the spinner. I guess the debate for England, will they bring in Showy Bashir or Will Jack? But I've always thought that in Australia, conditions are pretty similar.

For the first 20-odovers, the ball will nip around a bit. There'll be a bit of swing. And if you can be still there around the 20th, over mark. I think it was last year against Indy where Australia where I think there were 89 for three after 30 on overs with the pink ball and then suddenly from the 30th over to the

80th over they scored at six runs and over because it got easier, flatter and a lot easier to score quickly. So that's kind of the narrative for out test match cricket. The new ball does a bit, you play it sensibly, you weren't the right to score quicker after 20 years. The game hasn't changed the great deal, chappers.

We're going to hear from Penn State's very surely, but bowling then in Brisbane, Glenn? No, it's a pitch that we, you know, bowlers enjoy bowling. I'm not sure there's going to be something in it. You still have to find that right length. The thing with the Gabba pitch is it always looks like it's got a good covering of grass and touring teams think, oh, you've got a bowl on that first.

And there will be something in it, as there should be in every test wicket in that first session. But as Vaughney said, you fight through that, get to 25 overs, and there's plenty of runs to be had. And, you know, we saw a recent Sheffield Shield match, day-night match, where Maddie Renshaw got 100, Xavier Bartlett got four-for-so. So it looks like there's a bit in it for both. I think, as Mel said, there's a lot of humidity around. I live just above Breezy.

And the storms and the humidity and the heat's been pretty tough. But that's going to make that ball move around even more. And underlights, just hearing a few guys that played in that shield match, soon as it got a bit darker, underlight that twilight. if the ball is new enough, it's going to do plenty, which is pretty standard for day-night tests. So, yeah, hopefully it's not the same as that test wicket that they played Pakistan on because that was just ridiculously flat.

So hopefully a little bit in it, and that mooch in the air is going to make the ball move around. So there's a lot more strategically thinking going into a day-night test than a normal test as well. Plenty to get into the make-up both sides. Joe Roots comments about whether an Asher series really needs a pink ball test. But let's hear from Ben Stokes,

belligerent, maybe you would say, after the defeat in Perth. Has his tone changed slightly? You decide when you listen to this interview from over the weekend in Brisbane. You know, we had some good conversations around the group. It wasn't like a sit down or get together.

It's not the way that we sort of do things. It's about choosing opportunities and picking off individuals at the right time to do it and just encouraging those conversations and I feel that's a really good way of not only trying to get messages across but also the best way that we feel is to be able to reflect on things. Sometimes if you feel you get into an environment where you're all sat around on a huddle

and all that kind of stuff, you end up people might just say things for the sake of saying it. A lot of the debate as well after Perth was around the manner of the defeat and some of the dismissals and then after the game you pointed out the way Travis had batted was the way that Australia won it. In terms of the method, did you look at Perth and think, it was more execution and what have you learnt about batting in australia from that first test yeah i think you're emotional at the end of a game whether you know that be nice emotions or or good emotions so you don't have that time of reflection whether it be good or bad so that's why

it's important for me and the rest of the group to to be able to have time to reflect on it so look Travis head played an amazing knot there's no hiding away from that but that's not the overriding contribution as to why we didn't end up getting the result we just some amazing things throughout that test match. You know, the way that we bowled in the first sin inns, we were 100 for one, and we end up putting the score on the board that we believed was definitely defendable. But we all know, and we can look back on that,

and we have done that, and said there were moments in that game where, you know, we could have been a lot better to help us gain even more of advantage that we did have, and we know that, and we understand that, and the important thing that you need to do from that as a team and as individuals is learning from that. We've identified those moments, we've spoken about it as a group, and that's what you can do. you know execution could we have been better at executing what we wanted to do definitely

but again you know we've got a a mindset of playing the game which is looking to put the opposition under pressure but also trying to absorb that and sometimes when you go out there and you make a decision it doesn't always pay out or work in the way that you want it to and that's what the key for the rest of the tour is is making sure that we stay true to our beliefs of how we play our cricket but also we do know that we could have definitely been a lot better in certain areas throughout that test match. Some of the criticism that you've had in the past few days is quite personal. Words like arrogant being thrown around.

That's quite a motive. How does that make you feel? Yeah, look, you can call us rubbish, call us whatever you want to be and, you know, we didn't have a, the test match that we wanted to. Again, you know, we were great in passages of that game. I think arrogant might be a little bit too far, but we'll take the rough of the smooth, but yeah, I'll rather, you know the words like rubbish but arrogant sometimes you're a bit like off

so that's ben stokes talking to stephen shemelt the BBC's chief cricket reporter do you think the tone has changed a little bit Michael it's absolutely right when you lose a test match so quickly there's only two times actually I've seen Ben Stokes on a cricket field look a little bit lost and that was Carlos Bathwaite many years ago when he hit him for four sixes and then that afternoon in Perth he just was lost for ideas because Australia played so well and Travis Head came and played in Ashes innings

that we'll talk for a long, long time. But it's that absorption of pressure that interests me because this England team under Ben and Baz the way that they absorb pressure is completely different to many other sides. The way that they try and absorb the pressure is going on the attack

and be really aggressive and try and get a partnership going quickly. And that was their downfall. Last week, it was their downfall in 2023. It's edgebasket in the second innings at Lord's in the first. And this is what you're looking for in this England side now, because I've said it recently, and I keep saying that they have the tools to be very successful here.

They will get themselves into a position of strengthening test matches in Australia again. But will they have that mindset and that ruthlessness to really know when they're on top and just read the situation and play smarter cricket? That's all many ex-players are saying. It's just that smartness required. When you get on top, it's so hard to get on top in Australia. And I think it's not in 86, 87, when you go back nearly 40 years, that after four sessions in 86, 87, England were on top.

We haven't been since Perth. And after four sessions in Perth, we're all sat there, 100 for one thing, just play out that afternoon. See off Scott Boland's four or five overbursts. Get one more spelling to Mitchell Stark. Cameron Green, you know, he wasn't bowling a lot. Nathan Lyme was injured. You've got a debutant in Doggett.

Usman Kowager was off there for you think, oh, please just play smartly. just for two or three more hours and then you've got Australia exactly where you'd want them. They didn't do that. They made mistakes and they're now 1-0 down

and we go back to 1954-55 chappas when England went 1-0 down at Len Hutton's series on that occasion they came down here by boat and when you start going back that far you know that England have got a tall order

to come back from going 1-0 down here. Plenty of meetings on the boat on the way there wouldn't you on your approach I would imagine. Look, he said some things that he regrets and maybe even the tone straight after the defeat in Perth. And as Michael said, Mel, he's, you know,

he looked a bit for only the second time in Michael's view a little bit lost. And he's not the first England captain to look like they're caught in a washing machine and the opening test of an Ashes series, is he? Well, no, I think it's almost part of the course when you look at the hostility of the environment. I think it's important maybe for people to know as well.

But Ben Stokes put himself up to do media yesterday. He actually wanted to talk to everyone himself and take on that responsibility to, didn't make the apologies, you know, obviously my tongue very much in my cheek when I was referring to the has-beens. You wanted, you know, to redress all of that. And I kind of think that's a real sign of leadership

or a very good show of leadership by him. And you sometimes do see in difficult times that the batting coach and the fielding coach sent out to do media when no one really wants to talk. So I think that's pretty important to acknowledge. And clearly, some of the stuff is stung. You talk about being in the bubble and not paying attention to the outside world.

But obviously, some of those calls of being arrogant, and probably more so from the English side of things may have really struck a chord. And I don't think they want to be seen that way. But just it's interesting what Michael said about, you know, those particular times. I've done a lot of thinking about this in watching England over the past few years.

And so much of it has come down to whether they succeed or they fail as being recognising moments and being able to sense that moment. and we saw it go awfully wrong. They got it wrong at the Oval. For example, they got it wrong in Perth. You look back at that first test against India at Headingley, where they got it absolutely right on that occasion.

They did sense the moment when it came to that fourth innings. And so the thing that makes that relevant here is that with a day-night test, test cricket's often about recognising moments, sure, I think it gets intensified in a pink ball test because the conditions from day to night when the ball's doing something when it's not, when it's good for batting, we've seen more unusual declarations because teams want to be bowling at certain times. So that whole game management becomes an even bigger factor in a day-night test. And being able to recognise moments is, I think, huge. And actually, when the Australians have been talking over the past couple of days, Travis Head, Manas Labasin, the number of times that that word moments came up was really significant.

So that's something that the Australians have learned by playing more pink ball tests than any other team and having a great success rate. And if you want to seize those moments, if you want to make sure you're on the right side of those moments, then you need clarity. and what was quite an honest set of interviews from Stokes where he took quite a lot of stuff on himself, Glenn. He said, you know, in that first test, I'm the person who makes decisions about how we go out there and operate.

I'm the one who gives the plans to the bowlers. I wasn't as clear as I normally am. The key thing for me is to be completely crystal clear with my bowlers. He's taking it all on, I mean, again, that's leadership, is it? He's trying to take it all on his shoulders and protect his attack. Yeah, I think with Stokesy, you know, it's great. You're the leader.

You've got to do that. And occasionally, you know, with when he said has been, sometimes you say things that you don't really mean in the media. You know, sports people aren't perfect. And then the media jumps on it and makes a big deal of it. So I have no issues with that. Things happen. But, you know, good to see him taking responsibility.

But my biggest thing with that first test was England have a style of play that they want to play. You know, there's talk about arrogance, whether that's right word or wrong words. They want to play this way. And when you're front runners, they're amazing front runners because they just take the game away

from the opposition. They destroy them. But the difference between a good team and a great team is being able to adapt to conditions. And the two biggest things that I took out of that first test which England really need to improve on

is they didn't adapt to the conditions. conditions. At second innings, they played the shots that they wanted to play rather than adapting to the conditions and the ball that the bowlers bowled. So they have to get away from this as a way I want to play, even if the conditions don't suit. So they've got to be adaptable and being able, good enough. They're good enough players, obviously, to be playing at this level. So they need to adapt to the conditions rather than the conditions adapt to them. And the second thing was they didn't learn as the game went on. The way the Australians bowled to, say, act. Kinsen and Kass. They got away from bowling that length. They bowled short. All of a sudden, the game looked completely different, you know, with Kars and Atkinson put on an important partnership there. And then when Head came out, started to take them on, they went to the exact same plan that didn't work for the Australians. So you've got to be adaptable, but you also have to think on your feet and watch what the opposition does. Okay, that doesn't work. So I'm not going to do the same thing. So, yeah, I want to see England come out and have that adaptability.

learning on their feet rather than say this is the way we play the game conditions make no difference we're going to go out and play it and if they do that that's why their record is 50 50 with this style of play which I'm a big fan of this style of play

but you've got to think and you've got to adapt you've got to be a little bit smarter is not adapting the equivalent of arrogance it's interesting their markets I always say sports people that talk up how they're going to play

are confident if they turn around and afterwards and tell you how they played, that's arrogance. So there's confidence and arrogance. How you're going to play? I love sports people coming out and being confident saying this is what we're going to do. How they've played, what they achieve, what they didn't achieve is not up to them. That's up to everyone else to judge how well you performed. And so over the past, my little issue with basball and they keep coming out and saying

how good they are and how they're changing the game and how they're doing this, they're doing that. That's my issue with that. I want to see sports people playing without fear, backing themselves, but not getting rid of pressure, pretending, oh, no, there's no pressure, no accountability. So there's, yeah, there's a few things there, whether it's confidence, arrogance, there is a fine line there sometimes. So I guess that's up to the individual to judge. Yeah, I mean, I totally agree with you, champ. They're not arrogant people. They're actually a really good set of guys playing for England. They're just playing a style that we've never

seen before. I will give them a little tip. It's not working. So they're the great entertainers at the minute, but they haven't won a five-match series in this time in the last three or four years. And the Oval Mell rightly brought up those five wickets for 30 on the last morning. They should have won that series 3-1.

They're perving the first things. We're forgetting about the first things. We're 160 for 5. Should easily have got 26, 270, they lost 5 for 12. So the method didn't work. In the second innings, they lost nine wickets in a session, so the method's not working. So if they want to win here in Australia, yes, be flamboyant when you get that opportunity. But if you're going to be flamboyant all the time, in any sport, whatever the

sport you play, if you play one style, whether it's football, whether it's rugby, whether it's hockey, whether it's cricket, and this England side, so far, they've played one style, apart from when I saw them face Jasbitt Bummer in the summer. And when they faced Jasper in the test match, that, in my opinion, the best was bowling in Bumra. Ingram were very sensible. They almost knew that he could only bowl either 24 or 30, well, 36 balls max. And they thought, we'll see him out. Played some nice shots because he went looking for the wickets

because he was brought on to get the wicket. So I look at someone like Mitchell Stark. When Mitchell Stark comes into the attack, Mitchell Stark is the aggressor. He's got to get wickets. So he's going to go searching the wickets. So if you leave if you're outside off stump, there's no way in a million years that Mitchell Stark's not going to

bring one straight because he's there to get wickets and he's just having that sense and that game awareness the arrogance is at times with a single side when they bat in the middle not when they bowl off and they're quite a sensible bowling unit they're sometimes quite defensive because they want to just bowl dots but i look at someone like harry brook and it was the over before lunch on day one and he danced down and whacked one over mid-off now it came off and we all went oh a wonderful shot but really is that the way to play test cricket and the first morning to dance down and wet one over the mid-off. I'm not too sure.

I've not seen it done in the history of the game. Harry Brook is a bit genius at times, and he plays a game that's beyond many. But I just think in that moment, when you're just before lunch, surely, Sends tells you, you've just got to get in, make sure you're not out and you walk off. Ben Duckett, actually,

in the second inning, just before lunch on day two. Bowling was bowling, and he downs down to try and whack him. He got hit on the elbow. And then there was a big LBW shout. He lost his foot movement, and he just looked at a little bit. bit ruffled because he'd been hit on that elbow and they get straight out after lunch, not saying that that ball to Scott Balland wasn't a beauty. It was, but you kind of look at

that dancing down. And this England side, they dance down. If the ball does anything, they feel that you've got to run towards the danger. And that's, you know, the great saying from Baz McCollum. It's exactly the way that Baz McCullum used to play. He used to dance down to try and hit off length. I'm not too sure that's the sensible way to go here in Australia when the ball's just zipping around. Just sharply on. on the regular occurrence that we saw in Perth, playing the old school way. I'm not saying going to your show.

I'm not saying play like boyks. I'm not saying play like cookie all the time. But, for, please use your sense when the ball's just slipping around slightly. Let's bring the pink ball back into this then and talk a little bit more about that. Because, Mel, Australia's record in pink ball test, if you are an England fan,

is something to be very, very wary of. Overall, in pink ball test, played 14. 130. Yeah, it's, well, they've played more than anyone who was here really that the whole concept kind of took hold and they've stuck stubbornly with it, making sure that there is a day-night test largely because of the different time zones in the country and wanting to have primetime cricket when it's not outside of the school holiday period on the East Coast where there's a big population. So Australia have invested in it and it means they've had pink ball rounds in the Sheffield Shield as well.

So the players just have more experience with it. And it's still a relatively small sample size. You're not talking about a huge amount of games. But a couple of players that have exceptionally good records with it, Manus Labashane has a great record with the pink ball. Mitchell Stark has an outstanding reputation. And he has no idea why. If you ask him, he'll tell you he doesn't know why.

I think it's just that he's quick. his left arm tall and because the pink ball actually swings a bit later that becomes an even more potent weapon Scott Boland also has a really good pink ball record. So they've had a lot of success with it and it's

not easy for teams to come in Australia don't play with it all the time but I think a lot of it comes back to what I was saying too about the moments in that they have they understand the whole rhythm of the game because it does tend to have a different

rhythm to Red Bull test match cricket. So I think the fact that it's a format that's not played often, but their experience is just so much more than anyone else. And they understand when you need to be doing things. It all sounds fine in theory. But you can sort of say, well, we're going to, we want to be batting at this particular time or bowling at this particular time. It doesn't always work like that.

sometimes it doesn't start hooping around under lights. So I think it's more about just really recognising the second that something different starts to happen with that ball and being able to change your plans or move your plans around. To embrace the impossible requires a vehicle that pushes what's possible. Defender 110 boasts a towing capacity of 3,500 kilograms, a weighting depth of 900 millimeters and a roof load up to 300, kilograms. Learn more at landrover.ca. Hello, it's Ray Winstone. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4,

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I'm Greg James. He's Felix White. Hello. And that is England's greatest ever bowler, Jimmy Anderson. Hello. Readers be cheerful. England's fast bowlers, blitzed, Australian in the first innings. Stokes, Fifer. Harrybrook, Olipoke, Ben Duckett,

looked great at the crease. Carson Ackinson, getting some runs. There's stuff going on there. Having said, I think we're in the driving seat, you know. Uh, yeah. There's only one thing that Ben Stokes can do to answer everyone's issues, and that is win the second test. That's it, isn't it?

Tail Enders. Watch on IPlayer. Listen on BBC sounds. This is the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. I hope I'm not being too negative here, Michael. But do you know what slightly concerns me in the buildup to this? is the different reactions of two players who've been asked about it.

So Joe Root, and I know what he's saying here, was asked about a pinball test. I personally don't think it adds anything. It's successful and popular here. Australia has got a good record here. And ultimately, you know, from two years out, it's going to be there. It's part and parcel

and making sure you're ready for it. But does a series like this need it? I don't think so. But it doesn't mean it shouldn't be here either. So there's a weariness there. Travis Head on the other hand we've embraced it we've been able to put on a good product

play really well with it pink ball white ball red ball who really cares does it need it does it not it's a great spectacle we're going to have huge crowds again I think it's great for the game it's like we're already going into it in a bit of a crikey pink ball

they're going into it brilliant bring it on here we go I actually agree with Joe I don't think the ashes does need a pink ball game he's just asked a question he's answered it honestly so we shouldn't talk Joe down. I'm not. I'm not in that sense, but it's more actually Travis heads.

We don't care. Pink ball, white ball, red ball, bring it on. We're going to enjoy it. Yeah, but you know, let's just give the England fans out there a small glimmer chappers. You know, the one game that Australia have lost with the pink ball was at the gather. When Shimagio is one of the great spells, we were there and it was incredible. I do giving them a bit of a warning sign though, because Australia, They looked like they were kind of on the beach that week. You know, they were two in the series, and they weren't quite on it.

There was a lot of tied bowlers. This Australian side, they're not going to, I don't think they're going to play any worse than they did in Perth. That, for me, was England's great opportunity because Australia, without Cummings and Hazel, they're still not there. I mean, Mel and Glenn will tell you more about Usman Coagher's situation, but I think Australia will be stronger this week. So whatever England do, they have to play a lot better than they did in Perth. They've got to play a stronger game for longer periods. It's all the talk of the batters and the way that they play. But I had real great concerns about the bowling unit in the second inning.

I know they only had 30 odd overs rest, but, you know, they didn't bowl a great deal on day one. And I know the emotions of bowling Australia out, the first days of an Asch's test match, that can, you know, kind of get to you. And then you're bowling pretty much a few hours later. But the paces were so far down. And if the heat is exactly what it's going to be and it's not going to get any cooler, You know, it's not going to be something like Perth, which was a cool week for Perth conditions. I have a bit of a worry or two about the England bowlers being able to cope with the heat

because, you know, I'll keep going back to it, Chappas. This England side just haven't played enough cricket. You know, they haven't – and it's not playing all the games, but they just haven't spent enough time in the field. The skill sets of bowling or batting, you can work on that in the net situation. I'm more concerned about the bodies being out in the field, they just haven't been out in the field for long enough periods. And it was just that second innings in Perth

where I looked at the bowling paces, I thought, oh, this isn't a great sign. So it's not just the batting that's got a little bit of an issue. I thought you started that answer with, let's give the England fans some hope. Yeah, but then I had to be truthful. I mean, it went downhill quite quickly, that answer. I know, apologies, apologies.

I'll come to the makeup of the team very short. shortly but just and this is linked to the pink ball as well Alistair cut pointed out in the Times Atkinson and Cass haven't played a pink ball test

Jamie Smith hasn't played a pink ball test either Glenn four of the others have only played one just from a bowling point of view to have never and we contrast that

with as Mel pointed out Mitchell Stark's unbelievable record with a pink ball that's a huge difference and how I know they'll be in the nets with a pink ball

and so on and so forth how quickly you need to adapt to a pink baller. How different it is as a bowler. Yeah, well, unfortunately, I didn't get to bowl with a pink ball, so I can't speak from experience, but I agree with what Vaughney was saying there, that you need to spend time out in the middle. And it's the same with the pink ball. You need to spend time out there in the middle. You can train and practice all you want in the net. That first game of the year,

you still pull up stiff and sore. So you need to be bowling. You need to be batting out the middle, different mindset. So that's, I think, an issue to start with. The pink ball, Yeah, it's about timing when you're bowling, when you're batting makes a big impact on the, on the game itself. And, you know, we've spoken a little bit about Mitchell Stark. If you thought he was a handful in Perth, you know, you can times that, you can double that with a pink ball in his hand. So it's going to be interesting to see how English players go about it. It is completely different. And this will be a good opportunity to see how well they can adapt, can adjust to condition.

So, yeah, normally when the ball's doing plenty, moving around. around the confidence of the bowler goes through the roof. So that's an upside there. You know, if you're running in and it's flat, it's not doing much. You know, it's hard work. As soon as that ball starts swinging, your confidence goes up and it's a different sort of mindset for the bowlers. So hopefully that's a positive for the English bowlers

that haven't bowled in these conditions before. But, yeah, it's going to be interesting. So, you know, soon as afternoon storms have been rolling through, you know, Southeast Queensland there for the last week or so and the humidity goes through the roof and everything else. So that conditions and when it's hot and humid like that, it can drain you, especially if you're not used to it. This is also going to be in England, the tack melt

that will have no Mark Wood, which is a huge miss in the ping ball. He took nine wickets when he last played in a day-night test against the Aussies in 2022 in Hobart. And it's also a big miss because, you know, as we mentioned on previous shows, the whole England plan was to target this series and target Australia with pace

and they've lost one of their main guns. Yeah, and when I was in Durham sort of towards the end, like in September, I got the sense up there that his knee was continuing to blow up once he reached really high pace and I think that's kind of what's happened here. He was limping around.

I had it all in like a brace yesterday at the Gabba. We might only see one more test out of wood if he's able to play at all. So it is a huge loss. They had a really, really long training session yesterday, England. They've been there the last couple of days at the Gabba, and they trained the house down last night, so underlights in particular. But having watched it as well, well. I actually hope that they open, I hope Ben Stokes decides to open the bowling himself

because he looked really good with that pink ball. And without Mark Wood there, I just, I just think he's a really good option with that new ball. And I was like, Vorny, I was tracking those speeds as well. And you saw, it's comparing them, say Mitchell Stark, when he came back and bowled in the second innings, because they didn't have very long off. His average speed probably dropped by two or three kilometres per hour, but the English bowlers dropping, you're talking like more than 10Ks in a few instances as well. So that is definitely something that I think they're going to have to look at. And for me, the interesting selection for England's bowling is going to be the spin question

because I just, I don't know, I could be wrong, but I have a feeling that it could be a test where both sides are going to need a spinner if this wicket is as flat as perhaps it could be. And then you've got the interesting question of Shoa Bashir and Will Jacks, who bowled a lot in the nets yesterday. And actually both looked pretty good, to be honest. The ball wasn't doing much. That's going to be for me, I think, a really key selection point, whether they want to strengthen their batting and they're batting depth with Will Jax or if they want to go with the spinner

that they've spent the last few years investing in so heavily even when he wasn't being able to get the first choice spinner or second choice spinner at Somerset. Go on then Michael. Given all those issues that Mel's brought up there, what's the makeup of the England attack then? Well, I think we'll find out straight away

whether they're going on there. You've got to remember the basballers generally go on the positive side of selection. If they pick Will Jacks, they're picking it, Jacks, because they're worried about the runs. You know, Will Jacks' record as an osmings is a part-timer, really. He's had a few wickets here or there. But, you know, they've bought into Shai Bashir for a few years for Australian conditions. So if they're going to play this spinner, dare I say, it'd be quite negative of the England side. If they went with Jacks because they'd be worried about their batting.

but that would probably be the best way to go. What I couldn't understand with someone like Joey Bashir, such a young bowler, you know, and I know conditions in Canberra are completely different, but, you know, surely a young spinner who's never bowled with a pink ball would want to go and bowl a few overs with a pink ball in the middle if he's got any chance of playing this week. So, you know, I think they will need someone that can bowl overs,

you know, a lot of overs, because I can't imagine it's going to be similar to Perth where you're blowing teams out in 40 overs. I think it's going to be more of a week where you have to do a bit more of the graft out in the middle, and we'll keep mentioning the heat, but you're going to need someone to bowl the overs. I like the idea of Ben Stoach's bowling early.

I do like that, Mel, because I actually looked at him in Perth, and I was crying out for him to bowl sooner in the first season. He's just got the knack. He was England's best bowler in the summer against India, and he almost has to realize how good a bowler he is. And I watch him captain, and he's got great empathy with his players. and he's an incredible captain

because he kind of always gives the players that moment. He's got to realize that for England to win down here, I think he's got to grab the ball earlier. He's the bowler that can really spice up this test series by getting wickets. He's got that knack. He's got Ian Botham kind of qualities. He doesn't even have to bowl well,

and he got five wickets. He was probably the worst of the season as he got five for him 36 balls, but that's what Ben Stokes does. So I'd like to see him with that pink ball earlier. even going to have got a chance this week it's a chance of coming back and doing something that is hard to do

winning in the Gabba, winning in Brisbane, but they have a great chance because they've got the tools. It's just whether they're going to use these tools correctly and that's the biggest. What's your 8, 9, 10, 11 then? I'd be bringing in,

well, it just depends on, I need to see the pitch, I'm going up there today, but if you're going to go with your best bowlers, Ben Stokes, Braden Casks, or Zatkinson. I love Josh Tong. You know, I really like Josh Tong. You look at his record. He got 18 wickets in the summer against India. You got five against Australia in the one test in 23. And he's a wicket taker, and you have to get 20 wickets. So Josh Tong will

be coming in for me. Obviously, Geoffrey Archer plays. I've probably picked about 15. I'm doing a toughnull there. I'll say you've just done a toughnull and given me a yeah. Because you have to leave, if you're going to play a spinner, you've got to leave one of those out? I personally, I don't think I'm playing the spinner. Okay. I just don't think England have a good enough spinner for these conditions at the moment.

So I'll be playing all my quicks and if I need a bit of spin. I know Joe's travelled a bit in Australia with the overs that he's bowled. I think England will get 20 wickets. He'd be bowl well with the scene bowlers. I can't imagine Will Jaxor Shoebyshire getting four or five wickets at the gabbah. So I'll be picking my seamers. Michael Atherton has gone for Will Jax

and he went back to West Indies beating Australia at the Gabba in early 2024 and highlighted Kevin Sinclair and off-spinning all-rounder who had a crucial role to play unbeaten half-century in the first innings, useful runs in the second took the wicked Ousman Coager in that he's used that as an example and therefore said he would pick Jacks over Bashir He hasn't mentioned which, or not that I can see,

which of the other bowlers he would leave out. What would you do, Glenn? And I'm asking you what you would do for England to win, not to sabotage. Yeah, if you've got a quality spinner, there's no doubt, you know, if the ball seems around, it's going to turn. You know, Shane Warner always said that, you know, Nathan Lyons' record with a pink ball is actually pretty good.

I think he's got the second most wickets tied with Pat Cummins at 43. So a quality spinner can do well in those conditions. But I probably agree with Vaughney. You know, their strength is their fast bowling attack. The spinner's not quite probably what you would hope they would be. You know, when England won that toss in Perth, I thought they would have just bowled. You know, with the attack they had and they love chasing. So that surprised me as well.

but I think going into this test up here, I agree with 40. I think they'll probably bring Josh Tong in for Mark Wood would be the way to go, and then we'll see how we go from there. Okay. Yeah, Chapman, just if you play Will Jax, you know, he's going to have to bowl a number of overs, because if you're going with the four quicks, Ben Stokes being one, we keep talking about Ben,

and he's a brilliant bowler, but the one thing that we can't see happen for England is Ben Stokes' bowl an eight to nine overburst. this is a five-match series and we've seen it in the past we saw it against India in the summer you know if you're only playing four quicks which is the usual way to go

but four England steamers in these conditions if one goes down and let's be honest there's always a chance that that can happen for both teams you know I wouldn't want to see Ben Stokes because I can some Briding Cars

bowl in a huge amount because I could see one or two with the bodies and Jopra Archer and so will you actually be plays or show up they're going to have the ball a lot of overs. Michael talks about the danger of a seaman going down. Is that, Mel, why there is still sort of caution around Cummins?

Well, yeah, I think Australia are taking the cautious, long-term view with Pat Cummins. You're remembering that between his first and second tests, he spent six years out of the game battling recurring stress injuries. So you look at that history. and he's actually been really durable since then. But he's the captain, the plan is for him to be captain for a while yet and for him to be playing for a good while yet. So I think they are taking that long-term view.

And the fact that Australia won the last test and did it so well with Mitchell Stark leading the test probably made that decision a little bit easier for Australia as well. They said they would have had the same conversations if Australia had been won down, but you can't deny it. It does make it a little bit easier to make that decision anyway and say sit another test out and make sure that you're really, really good to go because if Australia can manage to come away with the win here,

then you go to Adelaide and all of a sudden you've got Pat Cummins back. We don't know at the moment quite where Josh Hazelwood is. So then your attack gets stronger. So, you know, I think that they're just taking that, that cautious view because in the past they have made mistakes with Pat Cummins as well and he's paid a price for it. Glad? Yeah, no, I think a lot of it did. If Australia had lost that first test, I reckon Pat Cummins were definitely playing up in up at the Gabba. I saw him briefly at over in Perth there. He'd been bowling well in the nets. He said he was feeling great and ready to go.

I think with the fact that Australia won that first test, it just gave a little bit an option. just to not rush Cummins back just yet and hold him off for another test. So, yeah, I think there was a crucial win for Australia in respects to Pat Cummins' recovery and when he's coming back to play. So he is fit to play, but there's no point rushing him. Is that your understanding? Maybe I'm, you know, maybe it's not quite as black and white as that. But I think there's a fair bit that goes into that.

The fact that Josh Hazard, there's rumours going around that he's not going to be back for this series at all. ball, which is a massive blow. So, yeah, you want to sort of protect. You know, Pat Cummins came back, played in, you know, a little bit earlier and did his back or got injured again, then that's, that probably puts him out for the rest of season. So it just gave the Aussies another option there.

It's probably worth remembering that when, before the series, when Pat Cummins got that that stressed hotspot, it was going to be really tight. they always sort of had said it would be a minimum of four weeks after he started bowling for him to be able to play, like a minimum. And he's actually done really well. You know, he was back. Bowling looks great, as Glenn said, in the nets in Perth. And he's looked great in the nets here in Brisbane as well.

But it was, you know, you talk about that month. I think we're probably about five, maybe five weeks in. And so it's still very close to that bare minimum of four. And normally you would come back from that kind of injury, bowling for a certain period of time and then maybe playing, you know, a first class match or something like that to then get those overs, constant overs in the legs in a match situation.

And he's going to be coming in cold to a test match. He's really experienced. He's done that before. But you can understand why they're being careful because he's almost progressed a little bit faster than what you might normally expect someone to do. If I'd have said to you just on going back to Mitchell Stark, Glenn, when he came into the Australian squad for his first test,

that eventually he will go past, because he needs three wickets to go past Wiesemakram. But he would go past Wazimakram as the most successful left arm quick in the history of the game. What would you have said? I would have said he had the potential. Now, Mitchell Stark has that X factor. He's a wicket taker.

gets it right with that ball swinging, there's no one, I think, in the world that's a bigger wicket taker than him. Wazi Macrim to me is one of the most gifted bowlers I've ever seen. What he can do with the ball, swing it both ways. Unbelievable. The fact that Mitchell Stark's coming up on par with was, is an absolute, which is nearly one of the biggest compliments you could give someone else. So, yeah, Mitchell Stark, what I liked about him in the recent sort of year or two is how he's got that control. He knows his game so well now. So he's got, when you had control to that sort of X factor,

yeah, he's pretty special. So, yeah, when he first started, you're not sure, but he had that X factor. The fact that he's had that longevity, played 100 tests over 400 wickets now closing and it was unbelievable record and shows just how good he is. He's incredible, isn't it, Michael?

You know, maybe look here with nostalgia because Wazimackram was, but it is a phenomenal achievement. Yeah, and to think that he stepped up in that first game when there's no Cummings in Hazelwood, so there was pressure on him to be the senior pro, and he delivered two or three brilliant spells. It's that wobble seam that he's bowling to the right-handers.

He generally used to always try and swing the ball back into the right-hander, and he was a bit wayward. I think you felt that he could score quite quickly off him. And, you know, it's that ball that's going across the right-hander. Now you can see it when he kind of runs in, he puts his fingers across the seams. I just wonder whether England have any kind of thought

of having an early indication Alison Cook was saying about the non-striker when you're facing reverse swing you'd have the bat in either hand which way it was going so you have to trust your part and I'm a bit wary of that because there's a few dumb people out there

and put the bat in the wrong hand and completely do you or just absentmindedly forget that that's what they were meant to be doing for that particular spell and just start looking somewhere and oh I've got the bat in the wrong half But there's these little 1% is that you can deliver as a team.

And if he is running in with the ball, you know, across the seam like this with his fingers, you know, you do know that that's going to be the ball that's kind of nipping across the right handle, which was the major threat. With the pink ball, the major threat's going to be that hoopback. You know, he swings a pink ball better than anyone at decent pace. And I guess England this week, if they play Mitchell Stark,

well, if it's going to be dogged, if it's going to be Boland, obviously they didn't look like they wanted to use a great deal of Cameron Green, but if they can play Mitchell's start well this week, it'll go a long way to the result in the game. What do they do with Usman Coager, Glenn? Yeah, he's not a spring chicken, is he? I think he's going to be, but 39 later

this month. He's still a great player of spin, but I think the pace bowlers unsettling him a bit now. He just, you know, your reactions are not quite as good as they used to be. So, with this England attack with the pace, I'd be so tempted to stick with that second inings with

you know, Travis Head coming up. The order then you can strengthen that middle order, whether Josh Inglis or someone like that comes in. So we'll wait and see. But, yeah, I wonder how many matches Uzi has left in him at this level. What are the indications, Bell? Well, he was at training yesterday. He wasn't there the previous day, but he was back.

Was he at golf the previous day? Oh, don't. Don't. We just start playing golf before the. the first test and took all those wickets. So, you know, I think all cricket is a golfers these days and they play at an occasional game of cricket. That's all about, I don't know if it's taken over here.

In England, it's all about the paddle. Paddle is the new golf for cricketers. But, yeah, so he was there and batted for a decent period of time in the nets. My feeling was always been, even after Perth, that they would play Usman Khawaja if he was fit for this test. I don't think they like to be seen as reactive. I don't think they like to change a winning team, rightly or wrongly. I think England would prefer to see Usman Kowager opening rather than Travis Head.

So you look at what the opposition would want you to do. But I do have a feeling that they might stick with him. One thing that I thought was really interesting during the week, Andrew McDonald, and I actually asked Travis Head about this as well, is talking about that they have been talking about for quite a long time, the Australian team in changing the batting order around within tests from innings to innings. So obviously we saw Manus and Travis open in Perth when Usman Kowager couldn't take the field. But that idea of Travis had coming in as almost a pinch hit-up,

when the circumstances suggestor could work at the top of the order. They've actually kind of been toying with that idea for quite a while. So the fact that it worked so successfully in Perth makes me wonder if we might see that a little bit more in general from the Australian side and perhaps throughout this series when they see that there's a moment that they could take advantage in letting someone loose like Travis Head.

And he, you know, he has said himself that he wanted to step in as opener back when they were experimenting with Steve Smith and Manus Labashane, but when, after David Warner's retirement, he's been keen to do that. But it was sort of seen as, okay, you can do it in maybe in India or in Asia, it's okay, but not in Australia. So that was a significant moment, I think, for a number of reasons beyond the result of that first test. in maybe how Australia approached their batting line up. I mean, you nodded there, Michael. England would prefer a coager opening to head, wouldn't they? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think he's averaging 18 in the last couple of years against pace.

So, yeah, I think England feel that they can control us. I mean, I don't think they feel that he's going to hurt them too much. He's been a wonderful player. When you're nearly 39 years of age and you're having to face Geoffrey Archer and riding cars and Gus Atkinson at 85, 90 miles an hour, it's not easy but I'll be intrigued to see

I would think he's going to play him and if you're going to drop someone like Usman Quaad you wouldn't have picked him in the squad now he's in the squad I think he'll play you know I do think England have got a chance this week because if Usman plays at the top

the other is a lot of pressure on him I know it's his home venue and he generally plays nicely there but I do think there are a small few cracks in the Australian side that England could target I mean they target to that first day brilliantly in Perth

and there was cracks started to open up within a few hours, they'd lost the game. So this Australian side are a good team, but they're certainly beatable. It's just about playing strong cricket for a long period of time. You just can't bat 67.5 overs in a test match. You just can't. You've got about at least 78 Jovers per innings. If they can get something like 600 runs in the test match, 6.50, they'll have a great chance.

That's the big if. Can they bat a period of time to get that amount of runs? Did they do under Ben Stokes and his captain's, seeing how clear. every is out in the outfield, I think they'll create opportunities. It's just a matter of can the batters show up and just back with a little bit more sense. Can you envisage a scenario like that, Glenn, where England win it, like this? Well, they'll have to win it, really, aren't they? To go two nil down in an Asher series, the series is basically all over.

So I think for the England fans, for the state of this whole series, England really need to bounce back in this test match and walk away with a win under their belt. And to go into Adelaide won all, it's series on. If they go in Adelaide 2-0, it's basically, you know, game over. One all or 2-0 going into Adelaide, Mel, what's your prediction? I'm not asking, I know what Glenn's prediction is, obviously, but, you know. You know, I always say predictions are a Mudd's game. But they are, Mel, but they're always a good way to finish a show.

They are. And look, there's an Australian, that one, out the window. I'm going all in. I never do this, but I'm going all in on England to bounce back. They managed in the past to pull out wins when you least expect it. I said before this series,

I did feel it could swing one way and another sort of a bit dramatically along the way. I never do this. I'm all in on England. Wow. One more, Michael? Well, the last time, well, the only time in my time

that England had won down here, they won three at the last four tests, matches. So that's exactly what this England side have to do. Do I think they're going to do it? No. Well, there we go. We ended on a positive there as well. Mel and Michael and Glenn lovely. I mean, it's been a joy

with it so wet and windy here all day and all evening to see two of you sat in early morning Australian sunshine. I mean, that's just added to the peck. Oh, thanks Michael. What a lovely view. Clear blue sky. Two wispy clouds. A couple of palm trees.

Lovely. Thank you very much for that. Continue to enjoy the weather, the three of you. The second test in Brisbane starts at half-four Thursday morning. TMS will go on air on Sports Extra at 3.25 daily pods at the moment. There's a TMS top 10 on there as well. Thank you to all three of you. Hello, it's Ray Winston. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4.

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