Test Match Special - Headingley Day 2: The Day England lost the Ashes?

Episode Date: August 23, 2019

Michael Vaughan says the Ashes are heading back to Australia as a dismal English total of 67 looks to have gift wrapped victory for the tourists at Headingley. Alastair Cook and Geoffrey Boycott have their say on why England's batting has been so bad for so long and what needs to change. You'll also hear from batting coach Graham Thorpe and Australian quick Josh Hazlewood who took 5-30.

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Listener discretion is advised. The TMS podcast at the Ashes. Download and subscribe via the BBC Sounds app. It's going to be caught and England have won the ashes. Strauss is bold. Oh, bold by a beauty. Pitched in the rough and turned a mile. Botham swings again, hits that.

It's six runs. It's a six runs. That's his hundred. Goff runs away on a hat-trick. and he bowls to him. Darren Gough has taken a hat trick. No, is it, is it the ashes? Yes, England have bought the ashes.

Hello from Heddingley, where England have endured a desperate day, if we're honest, bowled out for 67 in under 28 overs with just one batsman making double figures. At the close, Joe Root side trailed by 283 with four Australian wickets still to take and now have a huge task to prevent Australia from retaining the ashes. over the weekend. We'll hear from Alastair Cook, the batting coach Graham Thorpe as well shortly, but we'll start with Michael Vaughan's assessment. The TMS podcast at Headingley for the third test of the ashes. Well, it's just not good enough. You know, I think you go back to yesterday, the conditions were perfect for England with the ball, gloomy, the lights were on, there was a bit

of drizzle. They had plenty of time to get in the dress room and rest because there were so many interruptions. Arrived this morning, the atmosphere around the ground, the atmosphere out in the middle of us, wait a minute, how lucky of England being. You know, it was almost unfair what Australia had to bat in yesterday, to what England were going to have to bat in on day two. You know, the message was very simple, and I'm pretty sure it would have been the same message in the team. You've got to play with discipline, Henley.

You know that within the first two hours, with the new ball, when you're facing a bit of quality, you will have to play well. And you've got to earn the right. You just look at what Labyshae has done this afternoon. He hasn't scored at a rate. He's just hung in there, and he's occupied the crease. He's had two or three scoring areas. He's let the ball go through to the keeper.

He's worn the opposition down. He's played and missed at a few. He scored a few ugly runs. I don't see that from the England team. I haven't seen it for four years, I guess. Don't see to want to do that. They don't look to me like they're willing to put the hard work in. And that is probably the...

In the middle, you mean? Yeah, in the practice, I'm sure the work in now. But in the middle, it's where it counts. I'm not interested in how much work they do in the practice ground because you're not scoring runs that matter. You know, you're not affecting the opposition in the practice ground. For me, is a real concern that every time the Singlin Test match batting line, And you've got to go back over four years.

Every time it's been put under pressure. And when I'm in pressure, it's coming up against a decent bowling attacking conditions that are just a little bit helpful. They get blown away. They don't get bowled out, they get blown away. And it's not that they get, you know, bowled out by absolute jaffs. You think, you know what? Well, England had bowled Australia out yesterday.

You'd have probably gone, not fair enough. You know, if they bowled them out for 67 yesterday, you go, well, the conditions are so in your favour. You can bowl Jaffers in those conditions. The ball that Stuart Broadballed to Travis said, it's unplayable. Yes. Whereas was there any unplayable balls today this morning? Joe Root got a good ball, that's a good cherry.

You're looking at the driver, Jason, right? It's so predictable. That's a frustration. You know, you've been around cricket for years and years. And this England test match batting line up, they're just too predictable, because you knew 10 for 2, you know what's going to happen. You know that they're going to try and have a dash.

You know that they're going to try and... But that's what's wrong, isn't it? I mean, at 10 for 2, you fight and you don't get out and you make the bowlers work. and all of those things. But you're absolutely right. The philosophy of this team seems to be attack and whatever the situation.

Absolutely. I mean, if you're looking at the scoreboard when you first go in and the opposition have a number of 400, well, there's pressure on you. When the opposition have got a number of 179, you know as a team that if you bat one day, even if you bat 70 overs of that day,

you're going to get a lead. You're going to score at 2.6 is minimum, probably 3 in the afternoon, and then it'll probably be a bit more towards the end and you end up with 22, 20, 2.30, that's not a big number. And England should get more than that. But that's just sensible play. And England should quite comfortably have been able to face quality.

Hazelwood, come into patterns in the high class. Nathan Lyons, a high class offspinner. But, you know, with that talent in that dressing room, I'm sorry, it's just not good enough. And, you know, this isn't just, you know, us kind of getting to the point of having a pop. It's been happening too many times. They've been bowed out for under 100, four times. In my heart, I think, in the last 18 months. I think I was, you know, in a team that was bought out for 40 odd at Leicester one year in the county championship.

Tess Creek has bought out for under 104 times with that amount of talent. And we've talked about how deep the England batting line appears and how, you know, the lights of wokes at 8 and then you've got Jopra at 9. It's not down to them. But this England batting line, it's not a batting line that stops at 7. You know, it's not one that you go, oh, the tail will always get blown away. You know, it's a batting lineup that should be able to get in any conditions, even when it's tough. they should be able to get at least 2.25, 250, in tough circumstances. It's the pressure card. They just can't cope with it.

No. I don't like you, but it does feel a bit of a watershed moment, this. It just does. I don't know why, particularly it should be today, and not only other collapses you've talked about. But, well, I guess it's because it is today. And the day that people were looking forward to anticipating and so on, it just feels like a complete letdown today.

And it sort of can't carry on like this. Now, Agas, what disappoints me is that two years ago we were in Australia and they got hammered 4-0. And there was a few of us watching and almost sent the message to the team. Just be careful because this Australian team are a damn sight closer to winning in England than you are to winning in Australia. Now, don't just think because you're going to get back in English conditions with a juke ball that you'll blow this Australian team away

because I could see that the Aussies were suddenly start to work together as a group to tensely get. You know, you look at what they've done with Peter Siddling. first two games. They've come here with a plan. You know, it's the best prepared Australian team that we've had here for many, many years. The way that they brought lots of A players over to get lots of cricket for

around the World Cup and then play a little bit of counties with Lavishane playing for Glamorgan, Bancroft playing for Durham. So they've been ultimately prepared. This England team have not been prepared for this. You look at the test team over the course of the last two or three years. It's been swaps and changes. There was two spenders last year. Adder's received

Moines Alley. Not one of those are playing now in the test match team. We've had England captains, Joe Rootbacking at number four, the first stage goes to number three, Jason Roy and Roy Burns, an opening partnership for the second time against Australia in the first test of an ashes. It's been haphazard.

And, you know, I'm at the stage now that I really do think that two years ago, I thought it was getting close where England lost in New Zealand, they got blown away in Auckland in that first test match, and there was taught that they were going to go with Trevor Bayless just to focus on whiteball cricket and they were going to bring a red ball specialist test. match coach they should have done it and looking forward now I look at the amount of cricket that

these guys are playing is it possible for one person and one set of backroom to do all three formats I think it's near on impossible you know I would put test match cricket on its own get a test match specialist coach a test match specialist team and their focus is purely on making sure that the singlin test match team are going to be competitive in australia next time round because let's be honest the ashes are going back to australia yeah they are they're retained I can't see how England win this test match. They might get a little bit of hope at Old Trafford and Old Trafford. I doubt it.

You know, Steve Smith coming back. This was England's opportunity. Their best player wasn't playing. I hope they can start really getting together, like they did in Whiteball cricket four years ago, where it was a strategic plan, get the right style of player, the right coach. England really had taken their eye off test match cricket.

That's the honest truth. And they've got to be honest with themselves that Joe Routy's going to get pelters. And he'll understand that. Do you think he's under pressure? Yes, he is. as he had enough support as an England captain over the course of the last two years leading into this series

I don't think he has I think it's all been about winning this World Cup it's almost been all right we're playing a test series right who are we picking they'll say that it's not and there has been lots of planning there's no way the planning has gone into this series like the planning went in for the World Cup and of course that was a great moment

and we needed to win a World Cup but let's be honest for English cricket fans you know the fans that pay lots of money the fans that have travelled all over the world they generally like the test game. You know, this is our bread and butter. We beat Australian English conditions.

And unfortunately, over the course of the next few weeks, this England team, you know, particularly the next couple of days, Australians, I'm sure, all win here. That's 2-0. And 2 to play, this England side are going to have to show a lot of courage and pride to get back and try and win a couple of games to try and level the series. But I just don't see that happening with the way that they keep being so inconsistent.

You know, they play one week where they dig in and they fight and they show a lot of discipline towards the situation of the game. You look at that fifth day at Lodge, that Josh Butler, Ben Stokes' parlance. It was disciplined. They dug in. You didn't see that this morning.

You know, why? We shall find out when, as a when Graham appears, at the moment, there's no sign of him. Do you think that the, I'll have to change personnel now? I mean, if they lose this game, there doesn't seem to me much point in persisting with, I mean, Jason Roy, I'm afraid, it just doesn't look the part at this level.

it's a shame. I thought actually this morning it was kind of set up for him in a way if he could have done something in the Jason Roy way who spanked a quick 60 without only that small Australian total there it might have sent a bit of panic

and the field set back. You've just got to be careful that you don't end up picking players that haven't done enough to be picked. You know, just picking another player is that going to change? It's more the mentality. You know, it's mentality

that I worry about more than personnel. I'm not one for massive changes you know the decent players it's more about how did they get the test match team playing the test match way on a consistent basis why is it that last week they dug in and they come at to Henley a few days

after and the team are only looking at 179 and they play atrociously because of mentality because of mentality. You know it wasn't technical it's just mentality chasing the ball playing that shot that Ben Stokes on the back of 100 did you see him chase a shot

wide outside off Stump at Lourdes a few days ago no so why is he done it this morning you know that shot that jason roy played the big drive joe denley played the hook shot that rory burns played josh putler court at extra cover i mean you can go from one to seven or eight dismissals it's funny isn't it because you can't even say it's pressure because those guys apart from denny did it in the world camp final and that that is pressure uh yeah of course it's tough in a test match and so on i know the ashes are up there but well i'll tell you what pressure is agers pressure is batting at this level when your scoreboard's not

ticking because you're not going anywhere but you're just staying and you're hanging in there and individually you're not looking after yourself, you're looking after the team and I just wonder whether this test match team just at this stage you're just looking after themselves a bit and they're looking for a score so they go chasing their own number

you know can I get a quick 30 or 40 at least my score will be okay I hope I'm wrong by saying that but because of the shots that I keep seeing and because they're not allowing the board to go through the keep and they're not allowing themselves just to just hang in and say to the Aussies right you're going to have to ball me a jaffer You're going to have to borrow me a great deliver

And if you do so Shake the bowlers out and say Well I don't see that mentality Enough in this England test match line up And it's been happening far too long You know you can go through all the teams that they've played This venue now England would have lost If they lose this week four in six

This is Heidenly This is our backyard This is English conditions Sri Lanka outplayed by Sri Lanka here At Edinburgh West Indies chased down that target on the last day New Zealand And now Australia

All right this Australian bowl attack A high quality you know and we're pinpointing the batting and it's absolutely right but I still think whenever we come here as a bowling I still don't think we ball straight enough I think you can ball too wide and that's just you know having to go at the ball and might as well might as well have a go to the lot of it

it's been rubbish you know but against Sri Lanka a few years it was exactly the same against the West Indies ball too wide what Australia did this morning was off stump line all morning off stumped can you play a forward defence can you play a forward defensive to an 85 mile an hour full-length delivery.

Most of the England players can't do that. Alistair Cook's up there listening and he knows he knows what it means when we're still 20 minutes and has no one been flushed out of the dressing room yet, Alistair, don't know, there's something going on up there behind closed doors? No, heading he hasn't been this ground, a great ground for England over the last few years.

And maybe he is absolutely right. Maybe we do bowl a little bit wide and we challenge the nick. But Australia bowled fantastically well today. They've got it absolutely right. by some soft shots from England and the highlights will never look good but you don't see the pressure that they were building up Hazelwood and Cummings were building on the players the scoreboard was not going anywhere and they challenged England and they weren't good enough to handle it but it's um yeah it's I haven't felt

quite so dejected in terms of the optimism I had when I walked into the ground today when I opened the curtains this morning and saw it the sun out I thought it will be a good day for batting get through that first hour get them into their second and third spells and you will reap the rewards if we're batting after tea and we'll score quickly but Australia didn't let them do that it didn't get through their first spells

and they're in a great position how responsible we're about to talk to Graham thought how responsible is the coach I mean he's being pushed out here because the team's been bowed out of 67 but how much of it is his fault or how much explaining is he expected to do

well ultimately the players are responsible for the performance it's the 11 who go out there I think England have got great resources great practice facilities and good coaches but it's down to the players who do deliver obviously you work with with players and players do work with coaches

away from the game as well but there he is I just see Thorpey he's here come on then Graham where do we start with that I mean it's unfortunate that the coach should be pushed out to explain a batting performance like that but where do you start well we're naturally very disappointed, you know, with our first innings score. You know, it's a, it was a sort of a golden opportunity for us today. And while we're certainly in our dressing room, and we're not going

to walk back in our dressing room, we're not going to walk back in our dressing. We've made it a damn sight harder to be able to achieve that. But we will come in in the morning. We'll try to knock them over as quickly as we can. And we'll try to set about getting that score, whatever they set us. But, you know, there was some poor shots. Today there was I give credit to Australian bowlers. They bowl the ball in a very good area as they have done

up front through this series already. So we know that. We know which the challenge has been. At Edgebaston and at Lord's probably second and as you can see when you get past those tougher periods that you can put scores on the board. It's not rocket science though, is it? I mean, it's the way you used to play for goodness

sake. Yeah, I mean, for certain areas in terms of, you know, playing the ball outside your eye line, you know, is an area where we need to be more disciplined. You know, if you're playing sort of in a corridor or in a bubble, you know, where the ball is able to come to you, we need to get better at that. And that's really disappointing. I think I interviewed you in Auckland. Remember when England got blown away there? And I mean, I think we could almost replay the tape and you'd be saying more or less the same thing. Yeah. And, you know, we can look at formats of the game and, you know, what, you know, the shorter forms and the impact which it has on players. Which is legitimate, I think, isn't it? Yeah, you know, and we can also

look at a, you know, a domestic game as well. And we can look at what we have out there coming through as well. And, you know, there aren't, there aren't heaps coming through at the moment. So we have to be able to work and be honest with our players as well. And that's what, that's what we are doing. Cold hard truth is today. We weren't good enough. Yeah. Do you think, that test cricket is sustainable with that amount of one-day cricket that's being played and the structure of the championship at the moment?

Can it carry on like this? Well, what it does do, I mean, it puts, I mean, test cricket is mentally challenging. Mentally challenging. I mean, on many reasons, you know, I mean, because you can't hide, you know, you get bowled out for 67, you have to come back out and fight up a full house

and you might be feeling a bit down on yourself as well because you know you haven't put in a good performance. You know that you've handed a good performance. giving the upper hand back to the opposition as well. You want to do well in the series. You know, it's an Ashes series. You know you've got an opportunity after Lords. We've let it slip.

We've let it slip, and we've let it slip badly today through a bad bank performance. But like I said, I give credit to Australia because we generally know how they're going to attack us up front and through that first 30, 35, 40 over period of play. And at times we've got through it, but today we didn't, and we collapsed in a heap. Some are playing for their places in the second inning's here now?

Well, playing, you know, I mean, I always say, you know, whatever the situation is, you want to be out of score runs for your country. So that's really what I want to see tomorrow, or whenever it is we come to bat, that pride and that, and trying to find that discipline and that approach to shot selection as well. And I know guys don't want to make excuses, you know, and I'm not going to make excuses for them either. It's tough test cricket.

if you don't get it right and if you don't mentally get it right and then you don't make good decisions with your shot selection you're going to be back in the hutch pretty quick so we've got to get better and we've got to keep working with some of these players because these are the best players we have

so we can throw it around as much as we like who could come in that could be some little movements possibly with our order or the odd player head up but nothing major Graham, I have to talk to us we've got to finish there thank you for coming out

and facing the music, as it were. The poor old coach, he always ends up in trouble, doesn't he? Alastair, was that more or less what you expected? Yeah, I thought he spoke pretty honestly there, actually, and saying that when he came to the ground, they've let, today, they've let an opportunity slip, and I think that's how every English supporter will be thinking, that opportunity they had to really get back in this series

after yesterday, with the cards falling into their place with the weather, and they weren't good enough. Yes, good bowl in Australia, but you're allowed to bowl well, and it's just trying to limit the damage in those situations to get through and cash in later and England just weren't good enough to do that. The TMS podcast at the Ashes. Download and subscribe via the BBC Sounds app.

So let's get some reaction now from the Australians. Josh Hazelwood took five for 30 and he spoke to Jeff Lemon. What a day. 2015 you were playing in that game at Trent Bridge where they got you out for 60. You've just rolled England for 60 again and how's it feel to get one back?

Yeah, it feels pretty good. It didn't really feel like a collapse, I guess, just continually kept taking wickets. Build pressure from both ends. I didn't think, you know, we went for many runs, so we kept it nice and tight, and it felt like the scoreboard didn't move, which was good.

It looked like you might be in for a tough day today. You know, the ball had been moving around so much yesterday. You come today, the sun's out. You think batting day. What was it today? Was there anything particularly in the pitch? Was it just discipline? How did it work?

Yeah, I probably thought that when we woke up. There was none of the cloud in the sky, so you probably think batting day first of all. But I think we just didn't try and do too much. We put the ball in the right areas. There's a little bit of nibble there off the wicket, a little bit of swing. So I think just as a whole group, especially the quicks, obviously.

Just put everything together, I guess, and it took our chances and had a bit of luck along the way. So, yeah, it was a good day. Makes a big difference when you've got David Warner in at first slip, taking a few hangers as well. Absolutely, yeah. Our slips are on fire today, so hopefully that continues for the series. It looked like a really deliberate plan

that you were disciplined and just hanging outside that off stump and then Pat Cummins was using the short ball more deliberately, you know, not too much, but just enough and picked out a couple of wickets with that as well. Was that a particular plan for you guys to balance that way? Yeah, I think that's our roles, really. And Paddy and Jimmy can be a bit more aggressive, I think, and I just do my thing from the other end, building that pressure.

So those guys, a bit shorter spells maybe and bowl a bit faster. So I think it's a good mix at the moment. You guys have been really good about the rotation sort of thing during this series, Mitch Stark and so on, you've all been very understanding of it. How did they break you up, though, after you three have bowled like this today? Yeah, hopefully. That's obviously our goal when we go out and bowl is make it impossible for us to drop us.

I think, you know, having depth in the squad creates that sort of mentality when we are bowling. You know, it could be one poor spell away from getting dropped. So such is the standard of the group with Stark and Siddell. Siddell's been excellent this series as well. So, yeah, it's well class. So hopefully it keeps up. You looked a little bit tired towards the back end of the Lord's test. Was that, were you feeling that a little bit?

sort of coming back in for that first time? Yeah, I think so. It just sort of takes that one test to get some miles on the legs, really. Felt really good out there today. So I think that 20 overs in a day when you haven't done it in a while is hard work and you just feel the effects of that. But I think once that's out of the way, then you've got the miles and legs, as I said,

and it felt really good today. Last night you would have been hopeful, but a little bit nervous, 179, thinking, oh, maybe that's just not quite enough. But how does it feel to have come back and turn this match around so decisively? Yeah, I think, you know, we had one good partnership in that, 180 you know everything was in their favor probably with the cloudy skies nice and dark good bowling conditions so I think the boys hung in well there we still lost I think it was 8 for 40 so some work to be done there but some good partnerships in this innings as well and yeah good day

all round and it just what an amazing day you know have you sort of absorbed it yet or this might be something you look back on in 10 years and think I can't believe we did that yeah I think it's still focused on what's left in the game at the moment so I think yeah something to look back on but still plenty of work to be done and, you know, see how we go tomorrow. Five wickets today, beautifully bold. Thanks, Josh. Cheers, thanks.

The TMS podcast at Headingley for the third test of the ashes. Now, at the very start of this podcast, I warned you about Geoffrey Boycott's involvement in this episode. As you can imagine, he remained very stoic as those Ingen Wickets fell with alarming regularity. When I was growing up as a kid,

my uncle Algae said to me, listen, youngster, you can't make runs in the pavilion. You've got to stay. stay in. And to stay in, you need to have a good defense. And then from defending and being able to stay in, you move forward to playing shots and scoring. And I think it's as simple as that. They don't stay in. Their defense is poor. By that, it's not just the technical sense of how to play defense. It's the mindset of playing defense and getting in. Somebody, Alice had talked about Hazelwood. I've always said, oh, he's a fantastic.

bowler like Glenn McGrath. He's not going to give you balls to score, particularly today when he souped up, his team's failed a bit with batting, for a small score, they'll be talking in the dressing room, he bowled out wonderful, line, length, you're not going to get many to hear.

So, where you might think you might get a few here and there, you're going to get less, because he bowled fabulously. And you get spells like that where somebody bowls well, somebody gives you a few easy balls. That's the ebb and flow of test cricket. It's like the ebb and flow of sometimes you win the toss you bat on a good piece sometimes like yesterday i don't

care who you are you to struggle to bat on that and they can't do it they mentally don't seem capable it so i'd ask the question i'd want to be talking to him in the dressing room and asking the question what are you thinking when you play that shot you made the point about the different shots no point me just going into them but there were bad shots all of them said what were you thinking I need to know in your head what you are thinking. And I need to watch the coaches when they say they do training, you know, what are they teaching them?

If you're just going into the nets and whacking the ball, you know, there's no point. I'd like to know, what are you saying? What are you working on? Can I ask, well, I'll see if it's a relevant question or not, this. And it's a sensible question. I'm not taking the Mickey. How many shots do you think you had in your locker, seriously?

all of them if I needed them but they're going to get me out not as many as they do now though no the difference is I didn't use them because I know that playing up front like that against Cummings I think is exceptionally young bowler

I saw him get the wickets in Joburg and then a couple of injuries is growing pains but now he's over that he's just a wonderful fast bowler good line good pace big heart keeps on coming and Hazelwood I think he's just exceptional and I would have said to you No, I would have said to myself, I'm not going to drive through the offside.

Right. I'm not going to be forcing off the back foot because if it bounces a bit or it just moves a little, I'm going to nick it. So I'd be looking to leave everything. So I'm putting some of the shots out of it, and I'm not looking to hook. No, no. Look, we've all made a mistake occasionally at that. But on the whole, not looking to hook against them, they're pretty sharp. and I'm looking

to play so well in the corridor of uncertainty that when I play it or I leave it if I can they ball a bit straighter and I clip it on the on side on drive off my hip anything like that's the safe side

always is and if it gives me something really full outside of stump I'm going to hit it because I can't miss it it's right full but you see some of them they're hitting it on the up as if they're playing one day cricket

Can I go back to the question I was asking you, which is, I'm going to compare you with Jason Roy, okay? No, you can't. If I was like him, I wouldn't. Jeffrey, that's my point. No, don't ask me what I would say. I'm going to ask these two then. Alistair and Michael,

does someone like Jason Roy these days, a modern one-day batsman have almost like sort of too many shots in his head? I mean, is that so much going on? Has he got anything in his head? Thank you, Jeffrey. You refuse to answer the question. I think you're right.

There's so much there. There's so much. Yeah, correct. too many options. So for that, you know, I look at modern players and for a delivery on off stump, for in whiteball cricket, that ball on off stump they've got to be able to hit 360 degrees.

That's the modern game. They've got to every trick to try and get the ball in all the spaces. Correct. Around the ground. Now Jason Roy goes out. He's got too many clubs in the back. You know, he needs to play pitch and putt and just take out a putter, a 7-9 and probably a pitching wedge. You look at Alistair. Alistair, they'll first admit, he had a flick off a hit,

pull shot, cut shot, and he drove down the when he was playing great. You know, that's four shots. You know, I think a lot of the England players, and it's not just England players, it's batting in general around the world. Australians aren't much better. No, they're not.

I just think there's so many kind of options in their mind. You know, and then they lose the trust element of survival. You know, we're up saying, just bat for a session, but they don't trust themselves to just play and just leave and let the ball go because they believe that there'll be a ball out there and they want to see that scoreboard ticking. So that's when they take on a big drive, which possibly isn't.

there, but they do have too many options in the back. And I think the game has changed, and the reason I say that is that when I started, when I first started practicing cricket at six or seven in the back garden, it was only about test cricket. It's the only thing that mattered to me. I wanted to be a test player. So in the back garden, I'm playing

against my brothers, an 11-yard pitch, it was about survival. Protect your wicket. Now, the kids and Vaughney's kids to grow young in that era, they're learning how to play the reverse sweep straight away. They're learning to every single shot because that's there's another form of cricket.

Actually, these England guys are actually on the telly. The whole play every single player around the world has to master three formats and actually I only mastered one and a and a bit of one day cricket we've been really honest. So they've got to master three formats and it's and it is hard

and you know when I first turned up to the professional staff at 18 I had four shot, three shots and maybe a cover drive, you know, I had a greenhouse at extra cover so I wasn't really allowed to play the cover drive at home so and then I I was learning to expand my game. Well, someone like Ravi Bapara, who was exactly the same age as me when I grew up when we came on the staff.

He had a lot more shots, and as Michael Vaughn said, he had to make a lot more decisions. Because if I couldn't cut it, and I couldn't clip it early on in my innings, I left it. So I was making a few decisions. Ravi could hit the same ball in two or three different places. So actually, he was harder for him to master four-day cricket because he had to make more on the options. And I think we're seeing a little bit of all of that. I don't think over the course of five. five years you shouldn't see a difference because you know i've seen a lot of junior cricket

and the one saying i hear all the time is dot ball percentage what's your dot ball percentage you know it's not possible against good bowling what's your dot ball percentage geoffrey you see i don't care and that's what helped make him and i wonderful opening batsman in test cricket in test cricket well we're only talking about test cricket can't talk about 2020 we're not playing the damn thing we're playing five-way tests and the ashes has gone forget about it I mean, they're just hopeless up front. You can't find an opening batting international cricket. I think Burns is back in the way.

He's trying, but he hasn't succeeded yet. He's got a few more tests ago before we say he's fitted to be there. You know, he's doing all right. What's the answer? But I mean, and I mean, really, you can't say we're going to have all this championship. Well, I was just going to tell you something. Michael got it right there partly, and so did Alistair. The kids grow up, and I understand that.

They have three four matches to play. I always put my hand up for them. It is difficult to change from 2020, slogging it everywhere, every ball, and 50 overs is a little bit, and then you come to Tesquite. I accept that, it is difficult. But you've got coaches teaching them 2020 and not test cricket. I've got parents who say to me about their kids have gone to Yorkshire for nets, my own county, and all they're being taught is 2020.

And the administrators as well, if you really be honest, They have to take a lot of stick. All they do is promote 2020. We've got another 2020 next year because loads of money. The counties are all going to get 1.3 million more, not as much more than what they get from the share out of international cricket as it is. And they're already going to get twice as much next year because the fees for Sky TV have gone up to 160 million instead of 80-odd million, am I'm there?

They're all after money. And so they're promoting the one-day game. Look at the adverts everywhere about 2020. the 100 overs next year, 100 balls. They don't promote test cricket. And so they have to take some stick for it, but they don't care. They're just interested in keeping their jobs as chairman, aren't there? And so the coaches are the same.

Kids go to Yorkshire, the dot 20-20. Sloggy. Some of them don't want to sloggy. And at 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, it's not easy to sloggy. Can I ask the players are coming out, the most junior member here, the one who has played all these things, how different is it to your batting rhythm and what's going on your mind

when you're changing from playing a T20 game to playing a test match or a championship game? What actually, what's going on that is different between the two? Well, it's very different, but the thing I'm going back to is when you're growing up, I only really practiced four-day cricket.

So hours and hours and hours are defending the ball, leaving the ball. Kids now are not practicing that as much because they are practicing other shots. they're practicing and that is it and to become very good whether you believe in the 10,000 hours or whatever method you believe to become an international cricketer you've got to work very hard

and you've got to do hours and hours of training and I just think at the moment we're seeing a generation who are diluted because they're playing three forms rather than when Michael and I and Jeffrey mainly played it was mainly one form. On top of what it says if they taught the kids

to have a good technique for proper cricket as we call it they'd be able to then mature and expand into the other. But they're not. They're taking them as kids and teaching them 20-20. That's the wrong way around.

So they turn up like Jason Roy. He couldn't block if he tried. I mean, there's more chance of a tractor doing his job than him. The TMS podcast, at the Ashes. Download and subscribe via the BBC Sounds app. Thanks to Geoffrey, Alistair and Michael. We're back on air from 1030 tomorrow morning on 5 Live Sports Extra and the BBC Sounds app.

In the meantime, catch highlights of today's play on the BBC Sport website on the app. Goodbye for now. Available every day during every test. This is the TMS podcast at the Ashes from BBC Radio 5 Live.