Test Match Special - How Australia shape up ahead of the Ashes

Episode Date: November 10, 2025

Former England fast bowler Steven Finn, former Australian batter Simon Katich and Australian journalist Melinda Farrell join Mark Chapman to assess Australia's squad ahead of the Ashes. Is it this Australia side’s last dance? Who will open? And how strong is their bowling attack? Plus, the sledging has already started and can Joe Root put his struggles down under behind him.The BBC will be providing 24/7 coverage of The Ashes. Full audio commentary on Test Match Special and 5 Live Breakfast at the Ashes, a live text service, a full highlights programme and the TMS Daily Ashes digest on iPlayer. Plus, the daily TMS podcast, extensive coverage across social media and a visualised Tailenders at the end of every Test.

You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Hello, welcome to the TMS pod, less than two weeks to go until the Ashes gets underway in Perth, comprehensive coverage across the BBC, full commentary on TMS. Digital clips available to watch during play and then a full highlights program on IPlayer as well. We'll have a daily TMS podcast. Tailenders will do a review of everything at the end of every test. You'll be able to watch that. as well. So we are ready to go out in, I'm assuming both of them are in Australia. Simon Kattich

and Melinda Farrell, are you both out there? Certainly am, Mark. Right? What time is. Yes, I am. I'm in my hometown of Orange getting ready to fly west in about a week's time. What time is it where you are, Melinda? It's just past 8 o'clock, so I've managed to drag myself out of bed and drag a brush through my hair, that's about it. Simon, time where you are? It's just after 8 o'clock here in Sydney, but I wish I got out of bed that late. The cat got us at about 5.30.

Stephen Finn, with us as well, former England fast bowler. Are you excited? Stephen, you're going out soon? I'm out a week today, yes. So I'm starting to adjust my body clock and staying up through the night just to get ready for it. It's an exciting time in the calendar to build up to An Ashes series and it's certainly reaching fever pitch.

Are you travelling in positive frame of mind? I am, I think. Yeah, I am. I think Australia are still favourites for the Ashes. I think we have to be realistic about that. But I'm quite confident in saying that this is England's best opportunity to win the ashes away from home in 15 years. Would you agree with him on that, Simon?

Yeah, I don't disagree at all. I think I guess the big question here in Australia at the moment is just how England's preparation is going to be leading into a big series because they're not really playing a huge amount of shield cricket, well, not shield cricket, but tour matches in the lead-up. So that's probably the big unknown at the moment. They're practicing at Lilaak Hill Park, my old home club in Perth at the moment. And I saw last night in the news that Joe Roots only just stepped foot in Perth. So they're obviously pretty relaxed.

It's a different regime to probably one they've had in the past. And obviously with Brendan McCollum and Ben Stokes in charge, there's no doubt that with that leadership, they will throw some things at Australia that Australia got to be prepared for, particularly with the bowling attack they've got. They've got some serious weapons there, not only the older brigade of guys like Mark Wood and Stokes, but also these young quicks that are coming through in Joff Archer, Bryden Kass, Gus Atkinson and Josh Tongue. So they've got some firepower there if they can get it right in our conditions.

The big question is, can they play basball in Australian conditions where the ball's going to nip around early on and going to have some pace and bounce. Well, come on to that in just a moment. And I'll come on to Joe Root arriving as well. But do you think, Mel, is there any kind of sort of fragility in the usual Australian confidence? Oh, I don't know if I'd go far as to say fragility. But it's been perhaps a more uncertain time just because of the selections. The irony is that there was only one.

really that open a position as far as players in the squad that you think that was really kind of the one that was troubling. But there are just the knock-on effects and around it. And that probably goes to the fact that the Australian selector that had chopped and changed so much since David Warner retires. And they've tried to shoehorn players who don't normally open into the opening position. They've tried a young, very green. opener in Sam Constus, who's now out of the side.

And so now they've gone back to probably the most conservative approach in, okay, let's pick a bloke in Jake Weatherald, who was the top run scorer in the Sheffield Shield last year, is 31, he knows his game a bit, and he's in good form. But the knock-on effects, there's a lot of eyes at the moment on that Sheffield Shield round that's on at the moment, particularly today, because Western Australia will be playing,

and that means we'll be finding out just how robust Cameron Green's bowling is. That's a big, big thing. So we're going to pick all of that apart, very short, and we'll start with Jake Weatherall in just a moment. The sledging, first of all, Mel. I mean, none of it. We're all used to it, but I've got two front pages from the West Australian here. I've got Bazball, spelled B-A-W-L,

which is having to go at Ben Stokes for complaining about stuff. Then another front page with Joe. route arriving. Maybe this is where Simon saw it, saying average Joe, hero in the homeland, pretender in Australia. VB, Victoria Bitter, have done a, doing an ad campaign on refreshing yourself on the laws of cricket and whether you stand in your crease or not in reference to Johnny Birstow's run out last time round. What's wrong with you lot? Why can't you be nice to us? I thought you'd get that pretty shit. I don't know. I was a human man. That's British, just horrible, son.

This is a bit where I have to remind you that I'm a dual citizen. Okay, I've got a British passport and an Australian passport. Just so you know. All right. Have you got that Joe Root piece in front of you? I've got the front page. I haven't got the piece. I've just got him.

Read the first sentence of the actual story. Okay. Well, right, I will find that... Have you got the first sentence? Because I've only got the front page. I haven't got the article. Yeah, no. The front...

It's on the front page, the bit underneath. Dud, root, down under, hero in the homeland, Pretender in Australia, the stats that haunt England's greatest batter ahead of Asher's showdown. All I'll say is the first two words of that. I'm not going to explain what it means in the vernacular on the BBC of all places,

but it's about the biggest insult to a gentleman's man could possibly be made. Oh my God, you've just made me read it out. That's one for me. That's one for my Australian passport. It's on the front page. Oh my word. Well, it's been nice working with you all and there we are. It's in a very vernacular sort of joking way, obviously. It's huge. What I was comparing it to, actually. I took photos of the front page. of some of the newspapers last year when India were on their way out. And they went so far the papers in trying to kind of appease or get the Indian audience in Australia on the side

that they had whole pages that were in Hindi. And all of these stories about Coley the King and Giswold the Prince and it was so, it floated them and lauded them so much. And that's kind of the thing that's really struck me now is that, mate, they don't care about drawing England fans in Australia. But the tactic is go and go as hard as possible. And Simon, look, it's nothing new and it is a bit of fun.

I do obviously get that. How did it affect, when you were playing, how much were you aware of what the media were doing towards the England players? And at any point, did you think this might backfire and firing them up? Look, yeah, good question. I mean, you are aware of stuff that's going on the background. I mean, it's different now. We probably didn't have, particularly back in 2001 when I first to it and then probably

again in 2005, social media wasn't as big as it obviously is now. Probably wasn't even around. I'm not aware because I'm not on social media. So the history of, or my knowledge of history of social media isn't great. But I know that back then, you know, the coverage of the government. game, it certainly was obviously very good in England, and particularly that 05 Ashes. You're probably not going to get a bigger series than that in terms of how it played out. We were certainly aware of criticism that was coming our way.

And I think this time around, there is some criticism of the Australian team. I think your press has called it Dad's Army, which in a way it is an older team. But I think this Australian team is confident in the fact that they do have that level of experience, particularly in these conditions. I think they're comfortable with that tag. I think we saw Josh Hazel would come out the other night and so he wasn't worried about the fact that it is an ageing attack. His perspective is experienced attack

and they are confident in these conditions. I mean, between Lion Stark, Cummins when he's fit, hopefully for Brisbane and then Hazelwood, and even if you had Scotty Boland, whilst he's only played probably over just over a dozen tests, he is 36 years of age and vastly experienced in these conditions. So Australia see it a different way. Look, the press are obviously going to play mind games and they're going to go hard early on.

And maybe part of that is because there is an element of concern around this England team because of the way they go about it. They are an attacking team. And if they do get on a roll with bat or ball, they could inflict some damage because this Australian team does have some players that they've heavily relied on with the bat. And I can see this England team springing a few surprises with their fast bowling unit, particularly in the first couple of tests.

I think guys like Cowager, Smith and Head, better be ready because I think this signal and attack's going to come really hard for them. Did you, and the Five Live Production, the sport team, don't miss a beat, so I now know exactly what I read out, and obviously it's all down to the emphasis, but I can sort of, what I said earlier, it means a colloquial Australian slang term

for, I'll say a romantic encounter that is disappointing bad or unfulfilling. Thank you. Thanks, Mel. Sorry. No, it's fine. And now I get it. It's where the, yeah. So, Stephen, back to, did you ever pay any, you can't avoid it, I suppose. It is unavoidable because the second you step off the plane, there are cameras in your face. And where I feel in England we're respectful of people's privacy when they've been on a plane for 27 hours. As soon as you walk through the arrivals lounge in Perth,

There's a news reporter there with a camera in your face telling you you're going to get hammered for the next three months. And that's hammered on the cricket pitch. So it is a challenge and it's like you're playing against the entirety of Australia as opposed to just a squad of 15. But the one thing I would say is that in 2010-11 when we won, we pushed that tide back the other way and they turned on themselves. And that's the great challenge for this England team with the way that they play. I think they can get on the front foot against Australia. I think they can expose a couple of little cracks in that team and then the tide can go the other way

and that is the great challenge for England going to Australia. Okay, let's come on to this Australian team then, this Australian squad and this is in the main what we're going to focus on for the next 40 minutes so. And let's start with Jake Wetherold, who is uncapped but widely tipped to open the batting. So just some facts and figures on him. Top run scoring last season's Sheffield Shield had a strong start this season.

He was out for 23 in the Sheffield Shield yesterday. He's 31, so he's not some young prospect. And Chris Rogers, Simon, has said, I think it's the hardest role in cricket. I wouldn't mind seeing them go with the proven opener as such. What I'm interested is at 31 and despite being uncapped, is he proven? Well, look, you're always unproven at test level until you get out there and get amongst it. So I think, look, there's an element of that.

I still think they're weighing out where the Manus Labashane opens as well. And a lot's going to come down to probably this last round of shield games, particularly from Cameron Green and Bo Webster's perspective, because the problem Bo Webster's got at the moment, he's had an injury interrupted start the season. I think he's got 30 runs in three hits. So he's not in probably the best of form. He's very good catch-up.

He gets handy with the ball. I think he got a late wicket yesterday. I think he might have knocked Travis Head over, actually. And then from Cameron Green's perspective, he's only average 20. I think he's got 84 runs in four hits so far for W.A. And he's only bowed four overs. So there's still that uncertainty around that role. And part of that might be that the selectors think both of them play

and Cameron Green stays at number three. Because the problem is, if they're being consistent, Cameron Green actually had a pretty good finish to the West Indies in the second and third. third test in a low scoring tour. So there's that element of it. The Australian selectors have generally been pretty consistent in the last few years. It is a settled team.

So Weatherall probably needed to do something this week to stand out and say, right, I'm going to open. But he hasn't quite done that yet. He's still got a chance in the second inning. So that might happen. But yeah, in terms of being proven, you're never proven at test level until you get out there and face the music and show that you're good enough. Kat, you were an opening batter.

Surely it's a specialist position, isn't it? It's a very unique set of skills to be able to walk out there at the very top of the order. Yeah, it's a good question for you. I mean, technically I wasn't in a way because I started my test career at six, struggled in that role, got dropped after the 05 Ashes. And then when I came back in in 2008, I'd made a lot of runs batting at sort of three or four for New South Wales, but then the opportunity came at the top of the order.

And ironically, the best position in test cricket for me was opening. I think I averaged over 50 in those three years from 2008 to 2010 after you knocked me over at the Gabba in that series. I didn't want to remind you, cut, but no way. Yeah, I remember it well, mate. You caught by me. Cost me big runs. But anyway, in terms of that role, you're right.

It is a specialist role. But for me, it was more a case of a change in mindset. Rather than sitting around waiting to bat, and even if that's at three or four, it was this changing mindset. Right, the toss goes up. If we're winning the toss and batting, I've got to be prepared to get out there and get right amongst it. And fortunately, having that experience of batting at three and four in shield cricket

and first class cricket in England had prepared me for facing a new ball because sometimes you're out there in the first over. And so really it was just the change in mindset. Thankfully, it helped me. And other guys have done that. I know Justin Langer did it. He moved up from three to opening. I think David Boone did it prior to that.

So it can be done. It's just that change in mindset. So, Marnas, that's the question for him at the moment. if they decide to go with the two or rounders and stick with Green at 3 in Webster at 6x Marnis has got to get his head around getting right out there from the start I mean he's batted at 3 most of his test screw

if not all of it apart from recently when he did open so look I think you can do it it's just what the selectors want to do with the balance of the team well and therefore Mel what Simon's suggesting is the opening partnership could be affected by the balance of the team

normally when you look at a balance of a team I suppose and trying to fit people is you're going to go an all pace attack are you going to drop your spin, whatever it may be. But actually, they're looking at the balance right at the top, which will affect whether they can get Webster and Green into the same side. And that's why I talk about that uncertainty. I'm watching the Shield Games yesterday.

I was watching Tasmania at one point thinking, gosh, there's Jake Weatherald and Boe Webster. And they're both in a position where their fortunes or their opportunities might be affected by, Cameron Green's ability to bowl, which kind of seems a bit crazy, doesn't it? Australia have largely been, as Simon says, quite a settled side in the past several years. But the biggest challenge that the, or the biggest challenge that the selectors under George Bailey have had to face has been the retirement of David Warner.

And I think there's some fair criticism to be made about the way that they have actually handled the departure of David Warner. And I feel sorry for a couple of the players who've come and gone along the way like Nathan McSweeney and Sam Constus. It's just going to be interesting. Look, at least Jake Weatherald. He's been through a lot. He's spoken about issues with mental health and OCD where he's had to go away from the

game and come back and kind of been a lot better for it. So he's a player who I think is more settled within himself than when you look at a couple of the younger players that they've brought in. He's someone who likes to talk about the different gears he goes through. And I noticed yesterday, you mentioned the 23. I think it came off about, I don't know, 36 runs, five fours in that 23. So he likes to go on the attack when he can and be aggressive. But he can also play out a number of maidens as well.

Of course, with Usman Kowajah batting the way he does, Australia will be hopeful that there'll be more of those overs where he does take on the bowlers. But I'm sure England will have been watching as well and noted how he got out too. If he does play, he could be Coagher's sixth different opening partner, Simon, since David Warner retired last year. And Mel was saying, you know, you can aim some criticism at them for how they've managed

the Warner succession. And really, that plan should have been in place a couple of years before Warner retired, shouldn't it? I mean, it wasn't a shock retirement. It's not like he was 28 and deciding to call it a day. Where was the succession planning? Yeah, it's a good question because I think one, it highlights how tough

the role is and the step up from shield cricket to international cricket, particularly against quality opposition. We saw that last year. You know, you go young Nathan McSweeney goes from batting at three for South Australia, then to open the batting in a massive series against India against the best bowler

in the world, Jasper at Boomer in, you know, tricky conditions in those first few tests and he was up against it from the selectors well in defense of the selectors to be fair to them the reason there's been i guess no one nailed the spot is because no one at the level below has dominated shield cricket or first class cricket in england or wherever to say this spot's mine now and when you look at david warner's career in the way it played out the last two years of his career you know he was nowhere near his best but they held on because they knew the guys below, and whether it was a Bancroft, whether it was Harris,

whether it was any of these young guys that they'd now been looking at in the last sort of 12 months, they realised that David Warner still, as a fading giant, was better than some of these younger guys, and it's proven to be the case. So you can't blame the selectors in a way because the guys below haven't dominated still cricket yet. And that's, you know, Sam Constance is a great example.

Got picked last year. Yeah, scored a couple of hundreds against South Australia early in the season at Cricket Central. But then since then, he's hardly made a run, averaging 20 this year. And he's still only a 20-year-old kid, so he doesn't really know his game yet. And this is the challenge that Australian cricket's got, and probably world cricket in a way. You've got young guys learning the game in whiteball cricket or having these big gaps with the BBL or comps around the world. And then they go into a test series, not quite with the experience under their belt of having played a full season in England

or having played, you know, multiple shield seasons here in Australia. and they're getting found out against some of the world's best bowlers. So to be fair to the selectors, I'm not sure there's much else they could have done because there's a number of guys that haven't grabbed their opportunity. And maybe that's something they have to look at within the system is making sure that the guys at the level below, that gap is bridged between, you know,

shield cricket, international cricket, and they're starting to play more A stuff now. You know, Australia played some A series recently. I think they're planning to play more. They've got to bridge that gap. Otherwise, they're going to find it hard to find the next, you know, Kowajah, Smith or Warner. Well, and that leads us on to the age makeup of this squad. I'll just give you some ages here of some of the players.

I mean, Martinus Labasheen is 31. Steve Smith is 36. Travis Head is 31. Alex Carey 34, the oldest in the squad. And this is a squad that has got only one man under the age of 30 in it. The oldest is Usman Coaja at 38. People like to think that Oh yeah

We've been picking the same The reason we've been picking the same team Because we've been the world number one team For last three years You know So it's one of those things Yeah the team's a bit older But so was the great team of Australia

In early 2000s They were all of the older generation too And obviously the transition Will always happen at some point When it'll happen I don't know In terms of when the players Stop playing

But it's going to happen at some point There are several factors here there is the weary young players learning their craft at the moment and then there is why would you change your successful team yeah look absolutely i think a bit much as being made of the ages to be honest i think that's more of a problem for australia in another sort of year two three four down the line um and it's something that they have to be prepared for i'm not sure that that's such a big deal this summer. I mean, just watching yesterday,

Mitchell Stark and Josh Hazelwood look as fit as they have ever done, particularly Hazelwood. And, you know, a lot of the batters, if their eyes haven't gone, as sometimes they do sort of towards the end of their 30s, then they've got a lot of experience, and that counts for an awful lot. So I think the whole supposed Dad's Army things,

being a little bit overplayed for this series. I think that's a future problem for Australia. But I absolutely do agree with Simon in that you've got a dozen openers or in any position, give or take, around the country. And there does have to be sort of a few questions asked about why is there so much trouble picking someone in one of those, out of those sort of half a dozen sort of players. Steve War said before the squad was announced Stephen that the selected George Bailey didn't have the appetite to make tough calls

to which Bailey replied well when people have that view I'm interested as to who they'd like us to leave out is that Nathan Lion or Mitchell Stark just because of their age which is a fair comeback it's a fair comeback but see they're turning on themselves already exactly it's great isn't it it's great England if you ask me this is absolutely Christmas no I I would agree that an Ashes series is not the series to succession plan within.

You pick your best 11 players. If Simon Kattich is the best number three in the country, he plays the next test match regardless of his age. It doesn't really matter to me. And I think that this is such a monumental series that it is not the time to experiment. I want to move on to Steve Smith. I'm not going to keep giving everybody's age, but I will do here. He's 36.

He will captain the side with Pat Cummins. injured for Perth. What difference, Mel, do you think that will make to Smith, if any? Oh, well, his average is much better, batting-wise, when he captains. We know that, and he comes with so much experience as well. He had, lots of times you would see Pat Cummins and Steve Smith talking, sometimes arguing quite strongly about fielding positions as well. I mean, Simon might be, I'd be interested to hear what he,

things. I actually think Steve Smith is perhaps a little bit more of a gut feel situation. What change am I going to make here? Be prepared to possibly do something a little bit funky or a bit more aggressive, whereas Pat Cummins often seems to be a little bit more right. These are the plans that we've worked out and maybe a bit more likely to stick to those plans. So that's something I think you sort of see maybe that will play a role. Steve Smith's currently captain in New South Wales. Genius brings on Nathan Lyon in, I think it was just the 14th over of the match and he gets a wicket almost straight away.

So I don't think Australia lose a huge amount. Pat Cummins is a massive presence in being able to pick up wickets at just any time. And also without him, I think Australia's tail is likely to be length. But as far as captaincy, they're different styles, but I don't think you'd walk out thinking, well, you know, they've got a second-rate captain in Steve Smith, far from it. So it's just going to be interesting to see how that plays out. But he's played a huge role in that leadership group and talking to Pat Cummins anyway, and Pat Cummins will be there as well.

So I don't know that we'll see a massive change, could be wrong, but maybe a little bit more, but maybe we might see a few more off-the-cuff captaincy decisions. Yeah, look, Steve Smith, you're right, Mel. He's a very instinctive captain, and I think we'll see that more with how he uses Nathan Line. I think he knows that he needs to try and get Nathan Line into the game at certain times, particularly against the left-handers, and he did that yesterday. And he's had a fantastic record captaining when Pat Cummins has missed some of the tests in India

in recent times, and that's not an easy place to captain against the quality of players there. but I think the big challenge for Steve Smith is the fact that, and this is why Pat Cummins is so good as captain, is that he can bring himself on Pat Cummins when things need to happen. Invariably, he's done that in the last five or six years when Australia had been in a tight place. They need a breakthrough because he's so good, comes on, gets a cluster of wickets, and then the test is done and dusted.

I think we saw that at the MCG a few years ago against Pakistan when they look like they might pull off an improbable victory, and he comes on, takes three, and the game was over half an hour later. So that's the big loss, but I think from a captaincy perspective, Steve Smith, and I think we heard it was McQuarge, talk about this recently. They've known each other since, you know, childhood cricket. He said he's a lot more relaxed now, knowing that he doesn't have to do the job full time.

And I think that's a big thing for Australia as well. The big challenge for Steve Smith, and I think knowing how Ben Stokes and Brendan McCullum think and plan, I think, and given the Kiwi sort of connection there, they will have seen what New Zealand did to Steve Smith a few years ago here in Australia so successfully. And I'd be very surprised if that same plan was coming here. Which was what?

Well, as soon as Steve Smith came to the crease, there were fielders scattered everywhere. And look, I hate to use the word body line, but that's exactly what it was, really. Neil Wagner executed it, and it came hard right from the word go, albeit not the same pace as what England had got up their sleep. sleeves. So I'd be very surprised

if that doesn't hit Steve Smith and maybe a couple of the other Australian batsmen that are later in their careers in the next couple of weeks. You're not still bringing up the 1930s, are you? Go to let it go. Well, it worked in the market. That's all you want to do when you come to Australia. You want the plan to work and get away

with the Ashes. There are some really good quizzes on the BBC Sport website at the moment around The Ashes. So name every player who's made an Ashes century since 2005, you're on that list, Simon. There's also name every player that Andrew Flintoff has got out in the ashes. You're on that list as well, Simon, on that. But on the centuries one, Stephen, I mean, sometimes you can forget just how dominant Steve Smith has been. Since 2005,

he's five test centuries ahead of anybody else on this, you know, 12 test centuries since 2005. Does his form go a long way to dictating where the urn ends up? I think clearly it's significant in his weight of runs and the way that he doesn't give it up ever is something that makes him a special player and the quirky places that he hits the ball as well makes him really awkward few to bowl at and you almost end up chasing your tail within a test match

trying to adapt to what he's doing. But yeah, I don't think it's hyperbole to say that he's probably the best Ashes cricketer of the last 20 years at the very least and yeah he's just got this remarkable insatiable appetite for beating England which is worrying so I think his wicket

will be crucial and having plans for him will be crucial I've actually just finished composing a text of Ben Stokes actually saying Simon Kattich said just put all the field back and bump him but he is going to be critical and I think on the flip side Joe Root is going to be absolutely critical for England

so the two number fours could have a significant saying where that earn ends up. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. On this Australian batting lineup, what's your top seven, top eight here, Simon? Well, a lot depends on what happens with Cameron Green being able to bowl. I think, you know, as I mentioned earlier, I think from a consistency perspective,

I think the selectors won't want to drop him because his last few tests in the West Indies were very good when a lot of other players struggled to get runs. So I don't think they'll be able to justify that. had a slowish start of the season for W.A. But I think they'll be hoping that one, he can get through some overs this week. He's only bowled four overs for W.A. so far this summer. And they know that he gives them extra firepower because, you know, he can bowl 140Ks.

If they want to go hard at someone upstairs, he's got the capacity to do that. And he's good enough to take top order wickets. So he's a dangerous bowler with his height. And particularly in Perth and Brisbane, he'll have a big role to play. And that's not to say that Bo Webster can't play a role with the ball as well. but I just think it's going to come down to, you know, one of those two or both of those two, and then that will determine what happens with the opener and, you know, whether it will debut if they don't think both should be in the same team.

But if they feel that Green can't bowl much, then maybe that might save Webster. And that's where this whole dynamic of the week is so uncertain because Manus Labashane is probably still sitting there thinking he knows he's in good form, he's making plenty of runs at three. he probably wants to bat at three but he might end up opening in an Ashes series purely because of what happens with Cameron Green's bowling and potentially what happens in the shield games this week.

So I can see a scenario where both are in play right up until the end of the shield round and then I guess number eight for Pat Cummins I think it'll just throw more responsibility on Mitchell Stark probably coming back up to that number eight role, Lion and Hazard and then Bowling slots in. Yeah, I think this is the top. turbulence that England need in the build-up to an Ashes series.

And actually, it's the first time since 2010-11 that Australia haven't been sure, but especially of the makeup and the composition of their line-up. If I was an Australian selector, and I've thought about this a fair bit. What? Becoming an Australian selector? Well, you know, it's sabotage from the inside chappers. It's extreme lengths, but I'll do anything to get that earn back. But I think I would have Webster and Kowager.

I'd have Labashane 3, Smith 4, Head 5, Cameron Green 6 and Alex Carey 7. I think Cameron Green is far more effective batting at 6. He's clearly an excellent player. But I do think the way that he dominates bowling at number 6 when bowlers are a bit tired is a really important thing for a team to have. And Australia have always had that dominant player at number 6 and 6. that can take the game away. So that's where I'd go. Sorry, your opening partnership was who, sorry?

Weatherold. Right, Weatherold, sorry. So did I say Webster? Yeah, sorry, I meant Weatherold. That was a slip of the tongue. That was a slip of the tongue. I wouldn't be very good in a selection meeting. You're, oh, God, I've got the wrong name.

Sorry about that. I have to go about it. Right, so Weatherol, Cowager, Labashane, Smith, Head, Green. Green. Carrie. Okay. Baring in mind, we've been doing these kind of selection shows for a little while. I've heard, I've had some people put Cam Green at three. I've had some people not put Nathan Lion in at all for the first test. And that then means that they can play Green at 6 and Webster at 8, for example, with Kerry or whichever way around. I mean, I've had Vaughney three weeks ago adamant that they start with, that they open with Mitch Mark.

So, right? So that's gone for the time be. But how would, how would you have your, so what would your seven be then? Well, what I think it will do is, as Simon said, really depend on the fitness. Cameron Green's only bold, I think, four overs total so far. The fact that he and Bo Webster are both kind of coming back from injury. He's had this setback after coming back from major back surgery. Interesting now, I actually had a really long chat and interview with Cam Green when he was in Bristol with Gloucestershire

over the English summer. And he sees himself as a number three or a number four who can bowl some handyovers. That's where how he sees his career going and that's what he believes he would be best used at. So I thought that was really interesting because that's what he thinks. Obviously, he doesn't call the shots.

I can't see Australia dropping Cam Green at all unless he's not fit, really not fit, because they've sort of been trying to build this team in a way, this idea that they can kind of build it around him as the youngest player in the squad, who's had a fair run of test cricket now and with all the different abilities that he brings. This is a big series, I think, for Cam Green, if he does play and if he does bat at number three, because he's not really dominated a series since he came in. He's had times when he's been stronger with the bat, times when he's been stronger with the ball,

made contributions all around. But you don't sort of look at any series and go, oh, that's been Cam Green's series. So I think this is a big one for him because there's no bigger way to actually submit your place and say, you know, I am the player that they're going to kind of work around for the next 10 years as they start to bring new players in. But, yeah, it's, it's, I think that he will push to stay and their preference will probably be for him in some ways to stay at three.

He actually did do really well in the Caribbean. It was devilish conditions for batters there. And he coped better than just about anyone on the most difficult decks. So this, this now coming into this, although he doesn't come off the back of a. a whole heap of runs internationally, you would think he would take some confidence from that once he can get over these little niggles. So would you have him at three then?

Me personally, no. Having said all that, no, I agree. I think there's time for him to eventually play, maybe not at three but at four. I think that there's still time in that for his career. Why pick Weatherald as a specialist opener and not play him? They've tried shoehorning players, in, even Steve Smith trying to shoe on him into that opening position.

And if it fails, then you're sort of going back to the well again and chopping and changing. Anyone can fail, of course, coming in. But the form that Manus Labashane is in, the fact that they can almost as an excuse, use that as an excuse to drop Cameron Green to six without damaging, you know, any egos or whatever, That's the way that I think I would go. How much, Stephen, if I move it on to the bowlers, and we'll do the pace tackle a little while, but we'll do Nathan Lyon first.

How wary, given his history and his record against England, will England be of Lyon? To a certain extent, yes. But I think his returns in the last couple of years because of the nature of the pitches in Australia have been somewhat down on his career. So I think there is a percentage of me that believes that neither team might play a spinner in Perth

and maybe Brisbane in that pink ball test. But certainly I think that's something that will come into consideration for both teams when they look at the surface in Perth. But Nathan Line is high quality. He's took 500 test match wickets. You don't do that without being able to adapt, evolve and survive. So I've no doubt that England will have to be wary

because if they're not, he will catch them out. So if the pitchers haven't been as responsive, then Simon, would you still expect him to feature in every test? Well, not necessarily because the fact that he's not no longer the songmaster as well, wonder whether that's a little bit of a gauge moving forward. I know there's probably a lot made of it, but, you know, the Australians made that bold call in the pink ball test in the West Indies

and it got the right result. You know, bowling played, who would the opposition rather face? Well, if you ask most of them with a pink ball, they'd prefer to face a right-arm off spinner. And that's no disrespect to Nathan Lyme because he is high quality. The tricky one for them with this decision, is that he's recorded up to stadium is outstanding. So, and it does turn as the test goes on,

even though it will crack up and be hard to face quicks on, he still will have a role to play. So they're going to be in a tricky situation with this because his record there stands out. But they have been bold enough to do that. And obviously now Alex Carey's the songmaster. So it does give him that little bit of a chance to say, well, if we want to play both all-rounders

and then have the batting depth to counter this England attack in what could be, you know, tricky conditions in the first test or two, they've got that option in play as well. I mean, that is, from someone who has been in that, the changing of the songmaster is important. Yeah, look, it was a massive decision. I mean, he's done it his whole career. Even when he was anointed by Mike Hussey,

it was a huge decision because Nathan Lyon was only early in his career. But to have that foresight to realize that he was going to be the next Australian spinner for a long period of time, particularly when there'd been a spin cycle of probably about 14 or 15 of them since Shane Warren's retirement, it was a huge call and he's done it brilliantly throughout his whole career. But maybe that was a little bit of acknowledgement that the end is getting closer for Nathan Lyon. Although he has said he wants to go to England in 2027 and win that earn there, which

is something that's alluded to this Australian team. That and winning in India has probably been the two big things they want to tick off on their checklist. They haven't been able to do it. and that's probably what they need to be considered a great Australian team. So he'd be 39. I know it sounds like I'm completely obsessed with age on this show, but he will be 39 by that stage.

It's either Nathan Lyon or pace, is it? Mel, I mean, there's no point in me asking who else make him into contention from Australian spinning point of view. It's either him or an all-paced attack, is it? Unless he's injured, yes. that's certainly how I would see it. Interestingly enough, he was finding some very nice turn on day one at the SCG yesterday

might be something for England to remember as the series goes on. Might be all over by them. No, I think it's going to come down to a decider in Sydney. But yeah, I could certainly probably more see for England the temptation in Perth to go for an all outpace attack and, you know, and have Joe Root, if necessary,

maybe they may even play, you know, will jacks and go that way. And I could kind of see that. I would understand it if they did that for that, maybe even the first two tests, to be honest. Because I don't think we're going to have a series like we saw in England against India over the summer where every test match goes for five days.

Suspect the games might move quite quickly. And I also don't buy into, you know, if someone loses the first test and they're on the back foot, I can see this kind of swinging one way or the other a bit. So that kind of leaves a bit of room as well, though if you do, if it does the results sort of swing one way and another, that's when you tend to find teams do make changes. And so we might well see Lyon go out, go out for even Brisbane. If he plays in Perth, then in Brisbane they've got a precedent for that. that now. But gee, I expect him certainly in the last three tests to play a pretty huge role

for Australia. They're pretty aware of the lack of experience when it comes to that in the England side. And I think they'll be wanting to maximise it with Nathan Lyon. He's also still, by the way, I know you hop on about age, your big ageist, Mark, but watching him in the field yesterday at the SCG, Nathan Lyon is still an absolute gun fielder as well. And We talk about batting and bowling. Fielding, I suspect, might play a really big part in the way that these ashes go. Just dealing in facts, Mel. Just dealing in facts.

That's all I'm doing. The Aussie pace attack then, Simon, there is no Pat Cummins, and that has to be amiss. But in bowling, they have a very able deputy, giving his bowling average in home tests, is just over 12.6. I mean, that's pretty impressive. isn't it? Their hope, though, would be that Cummins is fit for the second test. Well, that's what it sounds like at the moment. I think initially, you know, there was concerns he might miss the whole summer, given how serious the back sounded probably six

weeks or so ago. But in recent sort of last week or so, it sounds like he is building up nicely and potentially on track for the Gabba. And we know from previous seasons, last year was a great example. He can come into a test series with pretty limited preparation. He came in underdone, last year against India probably took him a test to get going but Australia were always playing the long game with the five test summer he got better and better as that series went on and had a big impact on the Australian victory but this year obviously Gabba test is second pink ball

and that's where they might consider playing four seamers there and potentially that eases him back into the series without having to build up his workload too quickly and then he can come in for sort of short impactful spells So it'd be great from Australia's perspective, but Scott Boland, he's become a legend on these shores. The crowds love him. Whenever he gets the ball in his hand,

he makes things happen because he's always on and around the top of off stump with a little bit of movement each way. So I won't be surprised if England have a plan to counter that. It's just whether they can counter it for extended periods of time. And look, if that doesn't work, then obviously I think the next cab off the rank at the moment is probably, I know in the squad there's Sean Abbott, but there's a youngster, well, when I say youngster, he's only 31, Marks.

He's young in your eyes, Brendan Doggett. He's playing beautifully for South Australia. Did well last year for Australia A against India. I think it was up in Cairns or Townsville, one of the games. Got six for there. Got five for 60 yesterday down in Tazzie. Bowles at decent speed and gets a bit of movement. So he'll be pushing to be a part of this Ashes squad at some stage as well.

Yeah, I really like Brendan Doggett. And I think he's certainly, in my eyes, the next cab off the rank. Sean Abbott, he spent most of yesterday looking very frustrated. That might change. He's been around the Australian squad for a long time without sort of getting the opportunity to step up. But Brendan Doggett, you know, he's one of those bowlers. I was thinking yesterday, it's kind of hard to work out when you're watching him bowl.

There's nothing. Now, you don't get standing there and go, oh, my God, he's like Mitchell Stark booming it around or Hazelwood, breast pace along with Pat Cummings. But he's still obviously very quick. But it almost is deceptively innocuous the way he bowls. You sit there and you think, God, he's suddenly got five wickets. It's like the old Joe Root kind of, oh, suddenly got to 50. He's just got the ability to, I think, deceive batters really well with just enough. It doesn't have to be extravagant. Of course, he's been, he's had some pretty bowler-friendly conditions to bowl on in.

Tasmania, but he just kind of quietly goes about it, and you're suddenly looking at pretty decent halls. He got a six-for in the first innings last week in the Sheffield Shield against Western Australia, and then he got five first-innings here, and, you know, getting those first innings, wickets often players up the top of the order is pretty gold. So, yeah, watch out for Brendan Doggett. It wouldn't surprise me the form he's in. If the cards fall that way, if there's a couple of injuries or whatever, then we may well see him in the squad. Out of the whole of the Australian pace attack, Stephen, and as a fast bowler yourself, who is the one you admire the most and why?

Well, Hazel wouldn't come into the two. I just watch them. I kind of marvel at their consistency, their longevity, their skill, their ability to challenge both right and left handers. They're relentless. when I've watched Australia in the 2019 ashes, the away ashes in 21, 22 and then the 2023 ashes. It's just three of the best, lots of prolonged,

just relentless fast bowling from those two. So although it's good for England that Pat Cummins isn't playing that first test, it's worse for cricket and worse for the series because he is such a marvellous bowler. So if I were to pick one over the other, I think it's Cummins, but they're very close

and their bowlers who terrorised England for the last 10 or 12 years so yeah, good on them. I know we're not allowed to plug things on the BBC but for a certain magazine available along with other good magazines that are available

in the UK I've got a piece in the cricketer I actually had a really long chat with Josh Hazard last week and it was really interesting I kind of feel that he sort of slips under the radar a bit because Stark, so, you know, goodness gracious, great balls of fire, crushed someone's pinky. And then, and Cummins, Captain Pat with a million-watt

smile and his ability to kind of break open games. But Josh Hazelwood, right now, he's bowling as well as I've ever seen him bowl, I reckon, and he's never bowed badly. I don't think ever in his career, but across formats with the white ball T20 ODIs. He's bowled some of the most incredible spells in that series against India. And then he's once told me that playing Red Ball is like slipping on an old, comfortable old t-shirt. He gets straight in there and he was a bit luckless yesterday, had a catch dropped. But I think particularly with the absence of Pat Cummins,

Josh Hazelwood just looks like an absolute machine at the moment. He's a Terminator. Plugging an article in the cricketer, getting me to say rude things at the start. Honestly, Mel, you might not be invited back at this rate. After that Australian attack, Simon, who would you least like to face? I've said it for probably the last five or six years watching him live. It's definitely Pat Cummins. I remember playing with him as a youngster for New South Wales.

And when he burst on the scene, I mean, he bowled probably 150Ks. He was rapid. And then after that back injury, he's probably just bowled within himself to stay on the park but the beauty about that is he can bowl within himself at sort of high one 30s 140 k's an hour and still be sharp and i just think it's that nature of he gains speed off the pitch which i think is the hardest thing for a particularly an opening batter to face is someone just sort of shuffling in the way he does because there's not a big you know not a lot of speed to his run up he just comes in nicely and then it's all at the crease a bit like a

boomer and these sorts of guys and then it comes off the pace the pace the pace off the pitch is what does you and gets you caught on the crease. And that's where you see so many batters get caught in two minds. Do I play forward? Do I play back? Get pinned on the crease and then he presents a beautiful seam. And he's always on and around that sort of off stump, the danger area. So he either gets guys, you know, with a ball that nips back, Boulder, LB, or then he can nick him off.

So he, for me, would be the tough one to face. Stephen, by the end of this hour, do you still feel as positive as you felt at the start? And I asked that because I've been doing England, Australia in the rugby league ashes for the last three weeks. And at the start of that series, I thought, God, I quite fancy us here. And then Australia came out to warm up at Wembley, and they looked massive and they had the famous green and gold shirts.

And I thought, oh, crikey, they look a bit fearsome. And so it proved, as they demolished England, 3-0. At the end of it, do you kind of go along a little bit with Ben Gardner in Wisden, who wrote, Rumours of the Aussie demise have been greatly exaggerated. We were told this was there. their weakest size is 2011. There were holes all over it,

giving the settled England their best chance to win down under in a generation. But this is a side that knows how to beat England. I think we've been listening very closely to our wise Australian friends here. They haven't changed my mind though

because there are those little cracks that I think you do need at the beginning of an Ashes series and opportunities to open up if Australia do back Cam Green at three and Labashane at two and Labashane doesn't score any runs in the first test.

there's question marks immediately. If Boe Webster and Cam Green, neither of them can bowl as much, as people think they might be able to in that first test or one of them breaks down, that creates a question mark. The Pat Cummins cloud is hanging over the series as well from an Australian perspective with not heaps and heaps of depth as they have done before to be able to come in. I don't feel as though there's a Scott Boland-type bowler who can come in

and be the next cab off the rank. So, no, I'm still optimistic. I'm still positive, and no matter how many Australians talk to me until I leave this country, I won't change my mind. Okay. And what about the Australians who talk to you when you arrive in that country? No, I'm going earplugs in, sunglasses on the whole lot. I'm really looking forward to seeing you, Finney.

Maybe that's my British passport. Safe flight over, Stephen. Simon Mel, thank you very much for an entertaining hour. See you all soon. plenty more of that on the way I would imagine over the next couple of months. It all gets underway in the early

morning of Friday the 21st of November. The TMS team will bring you ball by ball commentary of all five tests on sounds and on sports extra. Highlights on the BBC Sport website and app as well as a full highlights programme on

the eye player as well and tail enders at the end of each test match which you'll be able to watch as well as listen to.