Test Match Special - How Australia won the 1997 Women's World Cup

Episode Date: October 27, 2025

Alison Mitchell looks back at the 1997 Women's World Cup, with Australia sealing their fourth title at the tournament held in India. New Zealand World Cup winner Debbie Hockley talks of her memories of the competiton, winning player of the match in the final despite being on the losing side in 1997.

You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Hello, this is Alison Mitchell with a special episode of the TMS podcast. In this show, we'll be looking back at the 1997 Women's World Cup held in India, where an estimated 60,000 packed into Eden Gardens to watch the final that didn't even involve India. The sixth edition of the tournament saw Australia win their fourth title. I'll be joined by a player of the match from the final, New Zealand great Debbie Hockley, to reflect on the events and hear what it was like to have a crowd cheering like they were rock stars. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

Debbie Hockley, great to be speaking to you. What's your overall sentiments if you look back on that 1997 World Cup? Now, Kiyah, Alison. It's a thrill to be interviewed by you, I must say. When I look back on the 97 World Cup in India, amazing country to tour, I think you have to be quite resilient. I think that it's very different in terms of all of your senses. That's probably the best way that I can describe, but whether it's sight or smell or sound, all of those things. It's just a plethora of different views every day.

and challenges probably. Fairly, you know, it's a big country, that's what I would say. And when I was looking at New Zealand's itinerary just before, we really did manage to zigzag our way, especially down the country before we ended up flying back up to Kolkata. So very fond memories, and it's lovely to be able to look back on that, although certainly you have to have a fair bit of patience. It was very hot, is what I remember.

So lots of different challenges that you would not find in your own country. So just looking at how the World Cup was organised, there was a record number of teams taking part 11, split across two groups. So you had India, New Zealand, Netherlands, Sri Lanka and West Indies, along with England, Australia, South Africa, Ireland, Denmark and Pakistan appearing for the first time. So 11 teams, 32 matches across 25 different venues all over India, which you've alluded to. Some teams had 16 flights in 24 days. How did you find it? Yeah, hard yards, actually. And, you know, some of the games, I was again looking at our itinerary.

Sometimes there was only maybe two days between matches, so, you know, quickly packing up and then either taking a bus or taking a flight. because, you know, as I've alluded to, you know, a very large country. So when you've got a big distance to travel, more often than not, it was on the plane. But I do recall some fairly hair-raising bus rides, I would say. You quickly either decide that you're going to travel with your eyes shut the whole time, or you just kind of sit back and clench your fists and enjoy the road. and hope like hell you're going to get there somewhere safely.

And how did you as players manage that amount of time away from home because you would have all been juggling jobs and home lives at that stage in 197? Yeah, that's true. Look, many of us, I think, were fortunate to have very good employers. Myself, I was always incredibly fortunate because I was a physio work for our public hospital system. So, you know, I was always really fortunate that I got paid leave, if I remember correctly. Some girls wouldn't have been as fortunate with being able to have paid leave to go away. So I think all in all probably people looked upon it as a wonderful opportunity to go somewhere that they might never go to again.

So I guess, you know, to my knowledge, all of the players who were available for selection chose to go. once they were selected. So I guess sometimes, you know, that's just choices you make, even if financially you might struggle at the other end of it a little bit. Before we get to the matches themselves and the cricket, do you have memories of where you stayed at that time? What was your accommodation? What I always compare is the 97 accommodation,

which was really excellent hotels, I would say, compared to say when I first toured India in 1985 where I always remember that we stayed at an army camp. Boy back in 85 where we didn't have running water so the poor army guys had to heat up these great big walks of water that they could bring over in buckets. And, you know, your shower was standing and having a tipping, standing in the bucket and tipping the hot water over you for having the shower. whereas in 97, I think for me it was actually awesome to have gone in 1985 to see how much better it was in 97, if that makes sense. So, yeah, we stayed in some really nice hotels. Yeah.

So I mentioned the massive crowd that came to Eden Gardens. We will get to the final. But what were crowds like during the group matches when you were playing? Really big, like for us, like really, really big. I mean, you'd probably easily have 15, 20,000 sometimes. And as we know, look, in India, they love their cricket. They don't care whether it's men or women who play, which is so exciting, you know, when you're a female cricketer,

playing then in 97, whereas in other countries say, especially in your own country, you may not have had large crowds. So, you know, the type of atmosphere that you're playing against, It makes you feel really special. And clearly, it's really nice to think back now that we were really entertaining all those people who came along. Well, when I spoke to the entertainment, the matches of previous World Cups had been 60 overs aside by this stage. So these were now 50 overs aside. And that would have been what, partly to bring it in line with the men's game that was 50 overs.

And with a sense of trying to make the matches, I guess, a little bit more engaging. Did you feel that was the case? Yes, absolutely. that, you know, when I look back and think that we played 60 overs, I think, and when you look at the scores back when we were playing 60 overs, it's almost like you sort of spent the first 10 overs just, not messing around, but I kind of feel like 60 overs, it really probably was 10 overs too long, because it was a long time when you played 60 overs, and we weren't getting, you know, we weren't scoring at, say, four and over or even five in over.

So I think playing 50 overs just worked much better in terms of, you know, your ability to play probably a better quality of cricket because you're not, you know, 10 overs is at least another 30 or 40 more minutes that you're out on the field. And it does make it a really long day for spectators as well. So that was a very good innovation with bringing it into line with the men. And another first for the tournament. This was the first World Cup where the uniform was trousers. moving away from the collots of previous World Cups?

Yes, thank goodness. Thank goodness. I think that if you're a fairly athletic team, playing in Cullops was just wholly unsuitable for a game where you're encouraging people to be very athletic. And, you know, I recall in the year previous where the New Zealand team had toured England and we were still playing in Cullops then

and just lots of people getting lots and lots of people, getting lots and lots of grazers and infected grazers from where you're diving. And then looking like you're wearing trousers anyway, because you're wearing collops long socks, and then you've got tuber around your knees to protect them from the grazers. So you may as well have been wearing trousers in the first place. And collots were always hideous to iron, if I don't mind saying. So I had a lot of years of ironing those collots. Well, the practicalities of travelling, right?

Correct, yeah. So it was much, much, much better playing in trousers. And what was the, what was the colour of the New Zealand team strip? We wore teal, like between a, it was a teal colour between sort of bluey and greeny. But I actually really liked it. Yeah, it was cool. But it was such a novelty playing in trousers. So whatever colour we'd been playing, and I don't think that we would have minded, to be honest.

Tell me then about the New Zealand team that you took out to that tournament. in 97? Well, we had a team of good experience. Maya Lewis was the captain at that time. Emily, I think Emily Drummond myself opened for most of the matches, I think, in India. And that seemed to sort of go reasonably well in most of the games. But we had some good spin bowlers, Katrina Keenan or Katrina Withers, as she was then. was one of our quicker bowlers, had a good all-rounder in Sarah McLaughlin.

So, yeah, we had a good variety of some very useful and good spin bowlers, including Justin Frye, who was a left-arm spinner, which gave us good variety. And so, yeah, I think that in most of the matches that we acquitted ourselves pretty well, really, apart from one. Yeah. well look tell us talk us through the if you like the pathway to the final as you remember it and how you perform because when you when you arrived in India did you mean every team arrives believing that you're there because you can do well but was there an expectation that you would make the final I think I think we would certainly be hoping for that after having made the final 93 in England you know which was the first time that we had made the final and you know, you fell at the last hurdle

if you want to use a good saying. So I think that certainly we would be hoping that we would get to the semi-final and push on to the final. Probably one of the most notable matches I actually

think was their first game against the Netherlands and it wasn't so much because of how we played or how they played. But if I recall correctly, it had rained a lot before that game and we were desperate to play. If I recall correctly, I think

it was a 20 over game which might have been the minimum that you had to play to register it as a game. And the ground staff were phenomenal and I've got great photos because the ground staff, they had this thing like a big flat

barbecue that they lit that they lit a fire inside it. So they lit wood and everything so it was like you were having a barbecue in your backyard and then so they it heated up this metal container which they then put great big sticks through so it was and then they lifted it up and put it on the pitch so it was yeah i've seen that in it yep warming the pitch to dry it absolutely incredible no helicopters there we just got this big barbecue that's sitting on the middle of the pitch but we managed to get that 20 over game and because we took the

the six points, I think it was. I think I'm sure that it was sick. I was looking at the points table the other night, and I'm sure six points were a win, which is a humongous amount. But if we, as I think as the tournament went through, especially when we ended up having a tie with India, because we had been able to,

that grant, because the ground staff had been able to get that, that pitch ready to play and we took the win, it meant that we, um, we were able to end up staying in indoor, which is where we'd played India for six nights rather than have to travel. I think that, you know, it depended on who we'd then played in the quarterfinal. So I always feel so kindly towards those ground staff

for that fantastic innovation that we had never seen before. So that was cool. So play the Netherlands and managed to get a win. And then we had a couple of games in Chandigar up north. Way up north, we played against Sri Lanka and West Indies. I think if I remember, I might have got a hundred in each of those games. I think, maybe. And then, so that went pretty well when we won those games

and then played against India at Indoor. And that was very exciting because it ended up a tie with Katrina Withers, or Kenan as she is now, but Withers back then, they must have needed one run to win and she was bowling the last over and got the wicket on the first ball. So we ended up with a tie in that match. And that then meant that we were through to playing Ireland in the quarterfinal. I think it's the, like the format of the tournament was different as well

because in England in 93 there were eight teams and we just played a straight round Robin, but there are no semifinals, which is weird to me. But so, you know, top two teams just go straight to the final. Whereas in this tournament, because there were 11 teams there, we were able to have quarterfinals in their semi-finals and then finals. So we took off to Mumbai and played Ireland in the quarter-final, managed to win that pretty easily, and then flew across the country to Chennai,

where we had Christmas Day before we then played England in the semi-final. Yes, I noted that, yeah, there was one match on Christmas Eve and another match on Boxing Day. So what was it like having Christmas? day, bang in the middle of two important World Cup matches? Well, it was different, yes. It was very different, but I did have one of my proudest moments because I took a Christmas tree.

I must have taken a spare gear bag, I think, and so I took a Christmas tree, you know, like an ornamental one, about a meter high, I suppose it was, and decorations, and we got an electrician to wire it up in the corridor of the hotel we were staying. and we'd all taken over gifts to give to each other. So we had a really good Christmas party just, you know, sitting in the hallway. And, yeah, it was, it was very cool, like different, but still really lovely to be able to spend it with your teammates. It was cool. Yeah, I should say, they weren't New Zealand matches either side of Christmas Day.

It's the two semi-finals, one on Christmas Eve and one on Boxing Day with the final then on the 29th. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. flag another significant match or moment that happened within that World Cup, and it was a game that you weren't at, but a record-breaking match between Australia and Denmark. The Aussies with the highest team score at a World Cup, racking up 412 for three. They won by the largest winning margin at a World Cup, 363 runs. And then Belinda Clark, the Aussie captain, scored what became her famous 229, not out, the highest individual score in a World Cup, and a first double hundred in any men's or women's ODI.

It came off 155 balls, 141 of those runs coming in boundaries. What was the reaction of all of you guys? Do you remember what you thought when you saw this score being racked up, noted that it was happening? Oh, well, I think we were just that. To be fair, communications was such that we probably didn't find out until after the game was finished, but we probably wouldn't have been surprised, I don't think, and we wouldn't have been surprised that Belinda had scored that many because, you know, she was

a absolutely terrific player. And I think, you know, like, to be fair, Denmark probably weren't their strongest opposition, which was clearly the case. And if any, it would either be her or it would have been Karen Rolton who had scored 229. And Belinda obviously had a field day that day and was able to, you know, keep a concentration and, you know, hitting that quantity of runs and boundaries. Well, she wouldn't have had to do much running, I don't think. But yes, I guess when you hear that totally, you know, you're well-impressed and with no disrespect to Australia or to Denmark, I guess that you kind of keep

things in perspective a little bit. I mean, if Australia had beaten India by that many runs, we would have probably ourselves been thinking, oh, crikey, they're on good form. but yeah, look, we just thought that was an amazing individual score, like an incredible individual score when you consider that you're actually only playing 50 overs. Yeah, that's right. And the Aussies then inflicted a more unwanted record on Pakistan

who were playing in their first ever World Cup, and they were all out for 27 in just 82 balls, the shortest completed innings in a women's one day international. They didn't then appear at a World Cup again until 2009, but quite a story, just the Pakistan women cricketers getting to that 97 World Cup. Absolutely, yes, absolutely. I've subsequently read a little bit of the backstory about it because I hadn't been aware of it myself.

And the Pakistan team had travelled to New Zealand earlier in 1997, sort of in January, and also played – so they played some – not internationals, but sort of like provincial and some club games in New Zealand. and then played two one-day internationals against New Zealand and then one against Australia on the way home. But just to even get to the World Cup, I think, was an amazing achievement. And, you know, I admire the resilience they had

because they were getting, you know, soundly beaten in many of the games that they played. But also my understanding is they had a fairly horrific travel schedule as well. So I think that it would have been a rude awakening to some of those women who were playing international cricket, but I just think good on them because they were trailblazers, I think. And that's why I just have such admiration for the efforts that they clearly made to even get there in the first place. And even though they might not have been appeared at another World Cup for several later, look, they're going great guns now and they've stuck to it and they've had lots of improvements.

So I think that they've got a lot to thank those 97 players forward. Well, let's talk about the final because it was quite an incredible time and incredible sites. When did you first realize that a massive number of people were coming in to watch you take on Australia in that World Cup final at Eden Gardens? Well, I think when we arrived at the ground, there were already quite a lot of females there. My understanding, if I remember this correctly, and I'm happy to be corrected from anyone who listens, that I think that they bust in quite a lot of schoolgirls to watch, which is terrific when you're looking to inspire other girls and women. India to play cricket. So I think as you know, females and especially girls tend to probably

be quite loud. You know, their voices are quite distinctive. So I think as soon as we arrived at the ground, there were many, there were many spectators already there. And so, you know, the noise was, it's kind of, again, a bit like an assault on your senses, really. Yeah. And I, and I remember during the game there were occasions where something might happen and it felt like you were standing under a jumbo jet that was just about to take off it was that like that roar was just it's not something I've ever experienced before yeah it was pretty amazing yeah I've read bearing reports from an estimated 50,000 crowd all the way up to maybe 90,000 what do you think is a sort of probably an acceptable number.

I think an acceptable number might be about 60. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look, it was, it was pretty chocker, and it's a big, and it is a big ground. Yeah. And, of course, it's a very long time ago. That's probably the main thing in terms of my name. The legend has grown.

Correct. Yes, absolutely. But suffice to say that there was a lot of noise and a lot of excited people playing, which made for a really amazing atmosphere to be amongst. There's a great line from one report saying that the state transport minister Sebash Chakraborti at the time had a reputation for getting big crowds into Eden Gardens. So I think very much that ties with the story of busing those spectators in, making sure that they were there. And Belinda Clark, a quote from her, saying they didn't count the people through the gate,

but there were a lot of people there. And she said that added to. a layer of nervousness that she said for her team certainly took a while to block out. How do you recall your team were Debbie as you took the field for that final? Probably the same.

I think, look, you're, well, look, you're nervous anyway because you're playing in a World Cup final. And I think that yeah, it just I think when you're fielding, well, when you feel, one of the big things I remember in India, it's really hard to hear what the captain saying to you because of the background noise.

So I remember that from, you know, my previous tour to India as well in 1985, that you end up using a lot of hand gestures and things. And that's just something that you just simply not used to. So all of a sudden, you have to, you know, you just have to learn a few new tricks and think, oh, well, that's not normal and stuff. But all on all, I think that when you're playing in front of a big crowd, out. It's really cool. That's the best thing I can say. It's actually, it's a really cool feeling thinking that lots of people are watching what you're doing. Well, I don't know whether you recall

the final took place on a Monday. It was televised on Dodarshan, which is the Indian State television broadcaster. And it was on Monday because apparently there was a men's one day international on the Sunday. And so they didn't want that clash. So you were playing on the Monday, but you were televised on Indian State TV. So the toss was won by news. Zealand. The decision was taken to bat first. You were bowled out for 164 and you played rather alone hand there, didn't you, with your 79, that ultimately, aren't you player of the match? But what did you sort of feel as you were going through that innings? Frustration, probably. When I, again, it's, you know, stats don't lie, do they? And when I was

having a look back through the scoreboard just, well, last night actually, I think eight of our players scored less than 10 runs, so it's pretty hard to win a game when that happens. We had one player scored 10, I think Rebecca Rolls scored 18

and I got 70 odd, so it just makes it challenging, really. It makes it challenging to well, look, it's disappointing. It's challenging and it's disappointing and frustrating probably. And even, you know, but also I'm really, really still frustrated at myself

for how I got out because I was betting with Rebecca at the time and we were going along all right, I think. And I think she said to, she must have said to me, look, I think that you should back right to the end. But do you know, I recognise now, not when I was playing, but I had this weird thing about not wanting to be seen to be not batting for myself, but I didn't want to appear to be selfish or anything with not trying to score more runs for the last few overs.

Which when I look back on, I think, oh my God, what were you thinking? Because you're there on 70-something, you've got about three overs to bat. If you stay there, you're probably going to get more. So, oh, it just frustrates me. But anyway, and I was facing Catherine Fitzpatrick, who, and I did this twice in my career, Ellie, against her, who at the tail end of the inning is going to be the best person, probably in the world, because she's bowling fast,

she's bowling full, and she's bowling straight. So if you miss it, she's going to get you out. So I think, you know, I was, I'm just, I'm probably more annoyed now than I was at the time. But to be fair, look, it was disappointing for the team to have played well throughout the tournament, but then again, feeling like we hadn't recognised our potential, which subsequently resulted in Australia, scoring more runs than we did. It was just jolly disappointing.

Yeah, the Aussies getting reaching their target with 14 balls to spare, probably that second wicket stand between Belinda Clark and Michelle Gosgo putting on 71 was the bulk of that run chase, wasn't it? And then it must have been very bittersweet to be player of the match, but on the losing side in the final.

You ask any player who has been named player of the match because if I remember correctly, when we talk about if we're talking about say the 2000 World Cup final, I think Belinda Clark was named player of the final and on the losing

side as well. And believe me, it means nothing. I think of Kane Williamson, was he the same, wasn't he, the 2019? Oh, probably. Oh, you seriously. And you think, oh, for goodness sake, I'm sure someone on the winning team would have played well enough. But I think, and then what I did recognise about playing in India is I think batter's rule, because I think no matter, like, it was always a batter who won the player of the matches, especially like saying, say in the games that we played and so so yeah when you say bittersweet there was like and i

certainly don't mean any disrespect to um the indian association or the person who chose me as the player of the match but it you know when you when it's the second world cup final on a row that you've lost it doesn't really it's it is bittersweet is a very very good description yeah and just a note on an inspirational point joulan Goswami, Indian great fast bowler, was a ball kid on that day at Eden Gardens in Calcutta. It was her first time at an international game, and she has said that she heard from her academy friends that someone called Fitsy Bold Fast for Australia, and she was inspired to bowl fast by Catherine Fitzpatrick through being at Eden Gardens.

What an outstanding story. That's a lovely note, isn't it? Isn't it? I must be really old, is what I'm thinking now. But if Dulan was the ball kid there. Yeah, yeah. What a great. That's a fabulous story.

That's the thing is that if you see it, you can be it, eh? It's perfect. Exactly. Where do you think that World Cup, they helped to set you up for the next, just briefly? Because the Aussies were a dominant force at that time, a fourth World Cup for them. What do you think your team learned from that experience?

I think we learned that it sucks even more when you've lost two finals in a row, compared to one. Yeah, it was really hard, especially for those of us who had played in both of them. And I think it just, it probably just ran, you know, because we'd played Australia a lot, like even, you know, before we sort of started playing World Cups. And I think that, you know, they probably had the hold over us. I think it would be fair to say. And I guess it's just, you know, you have to be able to, you know, you have to be able to, you

You have to be able to, especially back better in pressure situations of that sort of occasion, I think. I mean, I suppose it's a long time between World Cups, you know, when you have four years. So there's a lot of water under the bridge between. But like if you would say if you were a coach, for example, I'd be thinking, well, maybe people need to work more on their mental skills if they're, you know, like say in finals, for example, if they're getting really nice. nervous or something. Perhaps there's some common factor that was lacking a little bit. I don't know. I'm only just thinking about that now. But all on all, yeah, it's just, I just remember being so really disappointed. Yeah, really disappointed. But the good news was that the next World Cup, you managed to get the win, which we will explore

in another podcast. Debbie Hockley, thank you so much for being with us on the TMS podcast and sharing your memories. Thanks very much. That's it for this episode of the TMS podcast. Make sure you subscribe so you get a notification every time we upload. Also, check out the rest of the Women's World Cup podcasts we've done, as they're available on the TMS feed right now, as is the latest episode of No Balls with Kate Cross and Alex Hartley. And while you're on BBC Sounds, search for BBC Stumped while you're there.

Thanks for listening. Speak to you next time. Bye-bye. Towards backwards, straight leg, and catch is taken. women's cricket world cup featuring the stars of women's cricket smash straight back down the ground this girl eight teams takes the cap one winner Australia to lift the world cup trophy the iCC women's cricket world cup she does not fear a thing hear the action with radio five sports extra and keep up today with the tms

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