Test Match Special - 'If Stokes plays, he captains' - Michael Vaughan

Episode Date: June 18, 2026

Simon Mann is alongside former England captains Michael Vaughan and Sir Alastair Cook, and BBC chief cricket commentator Jonathan Agnew for reaction to the second day's play between England and New Zealand at The Oval.Hear from Emilio Gay, who scored a second half-century for England, and New Zealand's century-hitter Glenn Phillips.Plus, what's it like being the parent of an England debutant? Aggers speaks to Stafford, the father of Jordan Cox.

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Welcome to our review of the second day of the second test match between England and New Zealand. It's been New Zealand's day. England are 179 runs behind with only four first innings wickets left. Cox 22 not out and Joffre Archer in at number eight. They're yet to score. New Zealand adding 100 for the last three wickets today and then chipping away at England's batting. We will start with England's bowling and New Zealand's batting at the start of the day. play so a reminder of the overnight score 291 for seven general feeling was England had a reasonable

first day having put New Zealand into bat and the plan was to polish off the last three wickets for about another 30 or 40 runs New Zealand wanted 350 plus where they got three hundred and ninety one in what an hour and forty minutes hour and a half of mayhem out there today Michael Vaughn alongside me Jonathan Agnew alongside me Sir Alistair Cook coming as well very shortly. That first passage of play today was the tone set right from the start Michael with that wild delivery

first up that went for four byes or can you just drag yourself back? There was the drop catch as well by Duckett when Jameson had 15 and Phillips went on to make a hundred and New Zealand just got away. I mean how did you see it

from a former England captain in the perspective, how did you see it? Well, they're three overs away from the second new ball. So as a captain and as a team, you're thinking, right, just get to that second new ball. If you get one before, then it's a massive bonus. But, you know, the first two balls went for four, and then suddenly another one went through the cover point reading from James,

and he thought, well, this is a little bit of a rocky start. But I was just expecting Joffar Archer to start from the pavilion end, one over with the old ball, then take the second new ball. I thought they might have started with Jacob Bethel, actually, for two overs, because he got a couple of wickets last night. just get to that second new ball, and then it would have been Matthew Fisher, Joffre Archiebough bowed so well yesterday with the new ball.

To think that Joffre didn't bowl for 91 minutes, again, as the day has got longer and longer, that decision looks more silly by the minute because if someone like Joffre's got a problem, well, surely, I mean, he's fielded for 91 minutes and then bowled, surely you'd have got him warm at around 10 to 11, bowled in one over with the old ball, and then set it off,

just give us four with the second new ball, try and clear the last three away, And if you can bowl as five out, then come off. Then you get off the field, get in the dress room, we'll just use you for five o'clock. For him to have fielded for 91 overs, it was just a very strange look for the team. Because everyone was saying exactly the same.

We had Joffra warming up for about 40 minutes, and he was bowling to mid-on for quite a while. He'd think, come on, have a bowl. England desperately needs you to have a ball. It probably wasn't his decision. You know, he's probably taken out of his hands by the medical team, I'm guessing. But, you know, the field was spread.

Ben Duckett dropped quite an easy chance. And this England team quite consistently now over a period, when they have a bad session, it's a really bad session. And let's be honest, usually it's with the bat, you know, over the last period. It's been with the session in Perth on day two. It's generally been more with the bat. But that was a really bad session tactically and with the ball. And it allowed New Zealand to get 100 quick runs. And the whole momentum shifts, all the goodness and all the good chat from what we saw yesterday.

And we thought England had a really good day inside 90-odd minutes. we were all saying, oh no, they've gifted New Zealand all the momentum back their way. And even on the tactics that I, I don't mind them going short of Jameson because that's a fair point. He was going to chip with him in the air like he did, but I don't quite know why they went short at Phillips.

It was like almost just one tactic fits all. And actually Phillips were starting again on whatever he was, 40 or 50. A few round the off stump, test that. And he had, I didn't, I'm confused about the, arch and I was confused about the fact it was very, very stubbornly one tactic. And that was, and it's cost them. It's cost them.

But also, I mean, Matthew Fisher hardly ball from the pavilion end yesterday, ball from hour and with the new ball, quite nicely. But he started using the new ball from the pavilion. And I was a sonny baker who came with the older ball yesterday, start with the second new ball. It all just looked a bit. It looked a bit amateurist for a while. And I look at that session and I think we might be talking about it later on in

the game is a huge momentum shift. in this test match. Well, it was inexplicable. I didn't understand the tactic at all, particularly bearing in mind that Archer wasn't bowling. If you're going to bowl short and bowl like that, well at least you do it when Archer can bowl. The fact that he wasn't bowling and then the others had to do it. And to try with, when you have a tactic like that, yeah, okay, you might get somebody

hold out in the deep. They might flog when up in the air. But there's also a reasonable chance. The ball's going to fly all over the place. And all you want at that stage, as Michael was saying, three overs, just control, let's done get the new ball and then just get these wickets out it was I thought it was extraordinary tactic whoever thought of that at this level you know they're not they're not stupid in there but it was just I cannot understand who could

possibly have thought that was the right way to go about it this morning so what was worse Joff Rajan not bowling or the bowling from the people that did bowl well no I think he must have been told the not to bowl I think the physio is whatever he bowled that eight over spell we know he's not test match fit we're pretty sure that he wouldn't have played in this match had the the shenanigans of last week not happened he'd have got himself fit he'd have bowled some more so I don't think it's him saying

I'm not going to bowl I think he's been told that you know we will knock his wickets over Joffra you don't have to bowl anymore that was the plan but the fact that they came up with bowling short when they know Joffra Archer isn't going to bowl let alone bowl short makes that tactic

even more crazy in my view I mean if there's one person that's going to do it in that England side it's Joffra Archer he's not going to bowl so why do they do it So are we talking about the captain here, the standing captain, Joe Root? Well, I'll say it's good a day that Joe had yesterday. I thought yesterday was magnificent. You know, the team had a poor moment in the morning.

And that's down to not just the captain. The captain comes up with the kind of the details of the plans. But the team just looked like, and they do it regular this side. They just seem to lose that. There's that bit of concentration. When it really matters, you know, the ducate catch on the back. That is a massive moment in the test match. just a lack of concentration on the boundary.

I'm not one to say about anyone that drop catches. I've dropped many myself, but I know from when I dropped them, it was purely down to concentration and not kind of being switched on to that moment at that given time. And they have done it continuously now for a period on this ground against India. Last summer they just switched off, lost the test match. Harry Brooks innings brilliant and then plays a poor shot. They have a habit of just switching off in test match cricket and it's costing them.

But it's also really difficult. If you have a tactic like that, similar to the tactic of putting everyone back where you've got an established bounce on a number 11, just asking once or twice, it's actually very hard to get it back again, really hard to restore normality because you've kind of played that card.

And so whether it's bounces or whether it's putting everyone back, which is a perfectly legitimate tactic and often works. But if it doesn't, it's very hard to get it back. And that's part of what's happened here today. Yeah, we're being critical of England's bowling tactics But what we haven't mentioned really And giving him some praise for Was a maiden test 100 from Glenn Phillips

Who actually came out last night and played really well And withstood that barrage from Joff Raucher And then took it on today I thought it was a really rounded 100 You're trying to use words And someone said it's gritty I said well there's a gritty element of it That tough eight over is he was gritty

And then there was some dynamic stroke play which was classy and then played the situation well. It was a really good all-round 100. I was starting a cookie earlier and saying that, you know, we down the nether regions of the batting line up, never quite understand why batsmen like these two actually go out there and enjoy facing fast bowling and battling their way through it, you know.

But actually that inning shows exactly why batsmen do love it because, yeah, it's hard, it's painful. You wear a few. You're ducking and diving for your life, but you get 100. And when you get that 100, the sense of satisfaction must be fantastic. The modern player is very much geared to try and run towards the danger

and put the bowlers under pressure. Glenn Phillips is very much a modern player. He's an aggressive, very good whiteball player, T20 striker. But he's just played a test in it. Included power, finesse, you know, timing the ball. But then the moment came when Jopha turned to the tactics to the short ball and he played the short ball. Like in the 80s when I used to see Robin Smith ducking and weaving

and swaying, just trying to get out of the way, seeing off a bowler. So it just shows you that just because you're a modern player and an aggressor, it doesn't mean you have to be like that all the time. There comes a period in Test Match Creek. That's why we love this format. You have to change the way that you play in terms of the situation of the game, the conditions, who's doing, what tactics are coming up against you. I thought that was a perfect example for the modern player to just get stuck in and play that way.

But you'd also have known, New Zealand would have known that Archer wasn't actually match fit. He put eight overs into his legs there. wore him out. You could say that actually the way that he played that he had an impact on what happened this morning as well. They just, they wore him out.

Ben Stokes is going to play for Durham tomorrow, we think. All sorts of speculation about whether he's going to play in the next test match or whether, you know,

what's going to happen with the captaincy. Could you see a situation where Ben Stokes plays at Trent Bridge but doesn't captain the side? Like, if he resigns and stands down as the captain, absolutely that can happen.

If he's not resigning, absolutely not. Surely he should be the captain. If he's going to play at Trent Bridging, then need Ben Stokes the captain. They need his leadership, they need his obviously all-round ability. Having an all-rounder, just balances you're tied. We talk about that all the time, but I've

read a couple of stories just now that Ben Stokes potentially could be back, but just as the player, nonsense. I can't believe it. Unless he suddenly had a turn of thought and thought, right, I've done with the captain's seat, I don't get a sense that that's going to be the case. If Ben Stokes is playing at Trent Bridge, he has to be in the captain. Well, if he's not the captain, then that means he's either resigned or he's been

sacked. I mean, you can't just, you can't just not be captain anymore, is it? It's like, I just don't understand why we're in a situation still. You know, two days, I don't know there's been an investigation today. I think they've been interviewed by the regulator. I just want to hear from the... They've been into day? I believe Gus Atkinson and Ben Stokes have been interviewed today. Now, I just want to hear from the ECB. I want them to say publicly that Ben Stokes will be our England captain. He's done some good stuff for the England side. I want him back.

We all want him back, don't we? Do you want him back, Simon? Well, I think it's weird that people are talking about not being the captain in the future. I just think it's staggering. You know, unless the sack in him, the second him, gives a reason why. It's again, because we're in a vacuum. We're in a vacuum, aren't we? That's the problem.

We're on a complete communication vacuum. I mean, it needs to be, you know, something said. There needs to be information, information put out. You didn't answer that question, Simon. You ask us the questions. Well, that's my job, Alistair. Every now and again, you've got to answer one, Simon. Well, I'd like to know more about what happened first

before, you know, before you have, when you have all the evidence. But that's what the board will say. Yeah. Well, yeah, but once you know everything, then you can make a decision and make a judgment, can't you? Yeah, but that's what the ECB would say. We are still waiting. Well, the story's moving, isn't it?

It's gone from that. He probably won't play. next week just suddenly and there I just say England's not had a great day and suddenly Ben Stokes is coming back or maybe we're going to lose we need him it's silly that they're going to you today what's having the last nine days why I'm the interview two days after so haven't gone with it maybe the regulator's been away yeah he's on holiday it's a last time to be away okay look New Zealand all out for 391 so England had a little session before lunch they got 15 for no weekend there was nearly a run out before lunch duck it dabbing the ball into the

like Gay would have been out. And then, of course, after lunch, when Duckett was playing really well, he'd made 36 or 25 balls. He was actually run out by Gay. Well, he's run out by Smith, but Gay made the decision to take the single. And actually, it kind of continued the pattern,

which didn't continue later on. Actually, players just frittering their wickets away in this match. Actually, you could even criticize New Zealand a little bit because they chucked away three wickets today. They could have actually scored a few more, couldn't they, really? I just look at all the scores. You've got Latham 27, Conway 9.

Nichols 24, Ratching 33, Mitchell 44, Blundell 51. And then you go to England's order. You know, most players getting in, a 36, a 53, a 9 for Jacob Bethel, 46, 24, 24. So it's a week when all the batters really have got in. And only Glenn Phillips so far has managed to get the three figures. Yeah, well, it's going to feel like it's going to cost England, isn't it? You don't win test matches in the first inning if not one of your top six or seven goes on and gets the score. And you build around it.

and for everyone to get starts, I'm still looking at that wicket, and I think it's a really nice wicked bat on. I mean, the balls which Root and Brooke missed today, they are going to be, well, I know Joe will be, because I know him better, it'll be devastated that he missed it. It was a good bit of bowling,

but it wasn't an outstanding bit of bowling, the odd way, the odd one in. You actually saw him walking off and absolutely disgust himself that he missed that ball. And I think they've missed an opportunity, a lot of batters here have missed an opportunity to go and get a score. What not this keeper standing up, Bix?

It's really interesting, isn't it? Because that's definitely, that's a legacy from Nisa and Kerry and the ashes, isn't it? They've clearly looked at and thought, right, the, you know, Root and Brook, two fabulous batsmen. They're vulnerable here. Yeah, and I think, look, Joe's incredible, but I think that's probably the way that teams will go. It's maybe a bit of bounds when he first goes in,

just outside off something you can sometimes sneak in up, but just kind of trapping him on the crease. But how'd you keep him in the creases by keeping the keeper up? You know, Harry Brooke, I look at his technique, and I think most teams around the globe now will just try and get Harry Brooke playing forward defensive shots. Very, very difficult shot for Harry to play. That's why he moves around the crease a lot of the time,

because I think his technique's not quite, you know, the purest of techniques. He's quite an unorthodox player. That's why he gives him a shot that he's hit over third for six. He's quite remarkable. I think he's six ball. But I think most teams now, Michael Neeser in Australia, have started it, will look at Harry and go,

yeah, if we've got, you know, skillful bowl, You have to have the right bowler. Yeah, you can't just do it with anyone. Matt Henry's world-class and Nathan Smith, probably been their pick of her with O'Rourke today. The best of the two bowlers. But you need quality bowlers, you need consistency, and I think most teams now will go keep her up,

try and make Harry Brook play for defence. And the decent keeper too. Yeah, that helps as well. Yeah. Is it your hunch at that spell from Matt Henry might have really pushed the course of the test match decisively New Zealand's way? Those two wickets to get rid of Root and Brook

in consecutive overs, LBWW, LBW, 177 for 5, England, long way behind. Well, it was more the fact that those two could have been the ones which got those big scores, who've got England a lead, but that's not going to happen now. England are going to scramble as many runs as they can. They need a morning like New Zealand had this morning to get close to New Zealand just to keep them in the game.

So those two wickets have certainly dented the chance of England being in the dominant position. I think they've got a final way of getting another 100. If they can, you then start. start to look at who's going to get the 10 wickets in the second innings. You know, you've got Geoffra Archer, who struggled to bowl today. He's going to have to ball again tomorrow. Matt Fisher, I don't think there'll be any more swing than we saw on day one.

So eight or odd miles and how, you might have to use the keeper-up tactic. And then obviously, Josh Tongue and who else is in the attack? I've lost one. Yeah, Sonny Baker on his debut, you know, again, it'll be challenging to get the 10 wickets in the second innings. But you've got to give credit to New Zealand. fighting team. I think the scrap yesterday without having you know the players going on to get the big score and in Glenn Phillips he's played a brilliant thing it really has played nicely and he's put

New Zealand in a position that from here you'd have to say that New Zealand are favourites to win the game. But if England do lose the game we will be talking about that first hour won't we yeah where it just seemed to just just just toss it away. What about England's approach so we're looking at sort of pointers to how England are going to approach this summer. Lords was different because the pitch was so up and down it was so unpredictable. Have we seen a kind of different approach from England today? How is his sixth ball? Well apart from that, apart from the six of his sixth balls from this England batting line up. They scored at four and over and then Duckett was breezy, wasn't he, before he was run out and it might have been different actually if he'd stayed in. I definitely there's been a slight change of the tempo. We saw Duckett and Lords leaving his first six balls or five of them at least. There's definitely been a change of

there's not quite so much of that we are putting the bowler under extreme pressure we haven't seen too many charges down the wicket and hacking where we have we have seen that the last couple of years obviously Gay is a very different player

that's the thing I mean doing him at the top it makes a bit of a difference as well yeah he's a different player and he's looking to soak up pressure occupy the crease and knock the runs off rather than like a crawler he was trying to put the bowler on the pressure from ball one so yeah there is a change of tempo but it shows they still school. I guess probably won't like what I'm going to say now, but I actually want Harry Brooke to go ultra aggressive in this lineup because I'm seeing now the Emilio Gaze who plays the convention well. Jacob Bess is just a batter. Joe Root obviously he's got a pure game at number six now. James Rue, you saw it is a compacted player. I've liked the way Jordan Cox has looked, but he can go into a gear or two more than we've seen today. The last thing I would want Harry Brooke to do in terms of getting out is getting out the way he got out today. I don't want.

want to see Harry Brooke getting out in that way. If anything, I'd rather see Harry Brooke getting down and trying to lap it. I just think he's a better player. From what I've seen now, over a few years, I think he's a better play when he's causing a bit of chaos. But can't we have a blend of the two? Can't you have a situation which actually, you know, he plays for the situation? No, but I think today, if you look at the way that he got out and he's got a debut

at the other end, and he knew he was the senior partner. And I think in his mind, he probably thought, I've just got a bat now. I think he's got to play because I'm the senior kind of figure out here. I've got James at the other end. I've got Jordan to come at number seven. The last thing I want to and again, I don't want him to overcomplicate life. I don't want him to

think too much. I don't know if it works for Harry when he's thinking. So how does he deal with the problem though of the keeper standing up and a bowler like Matt Henry? Well look clearly he's got to iron out that technique. He's got to try and play a forward defensive but you know someone

like Harry Brook I think he's got the game to be able to hit Henry off his length. You know, really strike him. We could launch him over mid-on. You know, I just want to see Harry Book having the freedom and the game to be able to go and be flamboyant without thinking he's got to play conventionally

in this lineup. But the amount of conventional players that he can have in this lineup, I want Harry to be the free spirit. Yeah, but there's a time he's going to have to soak up a little bit of pressure. He just lost Joe Root and then you can't just try and whack the next ball.

I think Vaughney's summed out, well, I reckon, is he overthinking? batting. So a lot of starts in Australia, lots of, I think only one time out of those 10 knocks did he not get double figures. He's getting out at the minute when he shouldn't be getting out in terms of you've done the hard work. So he's doing all the hard work getting lots in and then actually is he overcompanic? Is he now, you know, because of the talk about how he plays, he's then rowed at, oh, I can't play like this because Joe Roots got out. So he's already doing something he shouldn't be doing. What's the most important thing about batting?

Have you seen anything at Cookie? I mean, at Lord's second in his go out for naught that nitbacker. It was a tough pitch, wasn't it? But that nitbacker. It just doesn't seem to react to that as well. Does he? He doesn't move again. If you look at the wicked today, does his triggers and then just tries to hit the ball with the back. There's no movement

again. I think that is a little bit of a concern whether he feels with the keeper up or something there that he can't step into it. I'm amazed. Oh, and a short leg in there as well. The keeper never... Keeper up. Short leg. You don't need to. He misses it anymore.

You get forward now. Get forward now with the short leg in there as well. But he doesn't play a forward defence. He's going to be trying to, isn't he? He's going to be trying to get forward. Get that man in there. Boom, bum, out. I just don't want, I don't want him to be setting that dress from really over-complicating batting.

I think there's enough of us that have done that for many years and it gets to you. I think he's quite a simple player that needs to look at that ball to strike. I think he plays better when he does that. Let's hear from the New Zealand camp now. And Glenn Phillips, who made that fine hundred. Today is with Daniel Norcross. Glenn, massive congratulations. A hundred.

Your first Test Match 100, just give us an idea of what it felt like to raise you back when it happened. Yeah, it was obviously a special one. It's my dad's passing anniversary tomorrow, so that was pretty special. So one for him. And yeah, obviously to contribute for the boys as well was absolutely fantastic. Have you been told that you're the third Kiwi to complete the set of T20 International 100 ODI and Test Match 100? No, I haven't been told. you're the first to tell me so that's yeah that's really cool um obviously just trying to stick to my

process do my things and the results are taking care of themselves and you know just trying to take one day at a time uh brenda mccullum and martin guttill of the other two brenda mccullum's here to watch it but you have caused this team quite a lot of anxiety today because there was a great pugnacious knot you came in with the team in a bit of bother did you deliberately take the attack to england both last night and again this morning not necessarily i think i was trying to stick to my process and let make sure the other the boys did what they do as well. Obviously, partnerships are incredibly key and just trying to pounce on any misses that were given my way, ideally. But obviously, as Josh showed last night, it was very much about playing the ball on this merit. And then this morning again, I'm just trying to do

the same thing and I got a few away. Can you give us a little insight into what that was like last night against Joff for Archer? Because it was thrilling to watch. You didn't back down, but my goodness, I mean, it was coming at your head every two minutes. Yeah, obviously, there was a lot of fun. It was a great battle with him. We've had one earlier a couple of years ago, which obviously definitely brings fond memories back and, yeah, no, he's definitely hit me on the body a fair few times now. So I think he's definitely got a lot of welts on my body over the last couple of years. So it was a bit of fun. It was fantastic. I guess that's what Test Match cricket is all about, that fights and that drives and that competition out in the middle.

Occasional glancing blow to the helmet as well, I noticed. But now this match is set up really well for New Zealand. I was going to say bounced back. but you kind of had a dominant day. Yeah, I think the bowlers have been fantastic today. We were probably a little bit wayward to start and maybe missed a little bit full. Obviously, the bowlers don't necessarily try and miss full, but that was the case for a little bit.

And I think they brought it back really well, especially the way Tesla and Smudge and Warren KJ Bowl during that middle period, especially after tea. I think we really pulled the strings back, and obviously we got a few wickets to make that day finish nicely. What's our plan to Harry Brooke, bring the keeper up?

Seems to really get him into his shell. Was that something you'd spotted in the ashes or from where? I think it was probably more pitch dependent today. There obviously is a little bit of nibble and up and down off a length when you try and hit the stump. So if we can try to keep the guys that like to move out of their crease in their crease, obviously speaking, it was a bat of myself. It's never comfortable to have a keeper up behind you.

And maybe if that keeps them on the crease and allows that ball to nibble a little bit further before it hits their pads, that maybe brings those stumps into play a bit more. And I think Teser and Smudge show that today. And lastly, with the game so well set up, you've got plenty ahead here. But what sort of target would you be looking to San England? There's still a few days left in this game. Pitch doesn't seem to be deteriorating at the moment.

I think it's about taking it as long as possible, keeping England out in the dirt for as long as possible. And obviously that brings out the elements of fatigue as well. So hopefully if we can do that, but obviously we've got four wickets to take first. And then, you know, it really seems like one of those pitches where if we can take it long, take it into the back end of day five,

then hopefully that gives us the best chance. Glenn, congratulations today, really well played. Thank you very much. Glenn Phillips, who made exactly 100 last man out today. England's leading scorer today was Emilio Gay, with another half century. He made 53. He's also been speaking to Dan.

So Emilio, second 50 in three innings. You would rather take it to this test cricket? Yeah, it's obviously nice to contribute. Yeah, naturally my first feelings of disappointment to not continue. I've had a pretty good conversion rate of recent years with county cricket, so slightly disappointed I couldn't convert today and stay in there. But yeah, I think I would have taken that a couple of weeks ago leading into my first test.

So it's nice to contribute again and hopefully help the team build towards a decent score. Quite a contrasting condition between Lords and the Oval. I'm guessing you prefer these, don't you? Yeah, not necessarily. I think every game brings its own challenges. I think the wicket naturally is probably better to bat on, of course, and lords. But yeah, I think there's a little bit more bounce in this wicket, which kind of, you know, you get value for your shots,

but also if you play a loose shot or something, Nick's more likely to carry. So there's different challenges within this wicket. But I think the general feel is that the wicket is pretty good, and I think New Zealand batted really well. So hopefully we can try and, you know, apply a bit more pressure tomorrow and build on the score. Was your feeling that it was getting a bit better than pitch or staying much the same?

I'm trying to look forward towards the back end of this game because England are going to be chasing. Do you expect it to get worse the conditions or stay much as they are? From my experience of the Oval, it's pretty true surfaces and they kind of, I feel like, stay pretty consistent throughout. We'll have to see how it pans out. I think, if anything, it's more of a credit to the bowlers. New Zealand, I think, have been relentless in their lengths and how they've bowled. Obviously, Ducky came out and was blazing it and put them under pressure, but I'd be honest, I found it pretty tough to put similar pressure back on.

I had to absorb a little bit and try and wait and be patient for the balls to come in the right areas because I feel as though their attack is so relentless and they hit the areas so well. Even though it's a good wicket to bat on, I feel like they can make it look as though it's a little bit tough work. And then with the lights and the conditions and the cloud, a little bit coming over in the afternoon, that probably made it a bit more difficult. difficult. But I just think it's such a good cricket wicket. I struggle to see day four, day five, it be anything other than that. You mentioned Ben's knocker 36. I've got to ask you about the runout. What's your recollection of it? I've tried to forget about it, but obviously I walk into the

change room and he was the first person I saw. So I apologised as many times as I could. But yeah, no, he just was very relaxed about it. I think almost the same thing happened before lunch with me. I think we've, I just picked out the wrong fielder. I think anyone on the park other than Nathan Smith, well, he might have got a bit closer. But yeah, that unfortunately happens. And, yeah, I just try to forget about it as quick as I could. But yeah, I think the biggest disappointment was how well he was batting. He looked so just so at ease.

So that was naturally disappointing. But again, that's part of the game. And unfortunately, it was my fault. I take full responsibility. But you've got to try and forget about it and move on and score runs for your team. And lastly, just a quick word on the morning. It probably did go quite as well as England would have hoped. What's your feelings on that session?

Yeah, I think what we've spoke about is sticking to our plans and if New Zealand play well, they play well. I think naturally another day, maybe we could have had a couple more. You know, Jameson and Glenn putting that partnership together wasn't ideal, but they played really well, to be fair. And obviously, Carl took a few knocks at the head and still managed to keep going forward and score runs. So you have to commend that.

And look, I think with it being an extra day than what I used to in counting cricket and the pitch being good, there's more than enough time to win this game. We've just got to try and take it stage by stage. But yeah, credit to them. With our bowlers as well, being quite, you know, fast and relentless in our own attack,

I think you've got to commend any good batting rather than focus on maybe the bowling side of things. Amelia, thanks very much. Congratulations on your half century today. Yes, thank you. Thank you very much. I mean, it's tough at the top of the order. You run out your partner, Alistair. What did you make of Emilio Gay today?

The same as I've made of him at Lords. He looks like a proper opener at the top of the order. He's got a technique where he scores, and I keep going back to scoring in the right areas. It looks like he can be consistent. He's quite rightly. He'd be disappointed getting out when he did. And it was a good bouncer.

That would have been, with a caught him by surprise. He got himself in a bit of a muddle. Is that a worry, though? Well, again, it's one of those, isn't it? Everyone gets out to the short ball at some stage because it's a ball that can get you out. You don't want a reputation to get out of a short ball and then that starts. That's where the difference between international cricket and counter cricket can because people can do it and can expose that area.

I know he's going to be tested now, the same as James Rue who got out doing it. So that is the thing. And the one other thing was like, and he mentioned it, the intensity of the relentless nature, difference between canter cricket and international cricket he's seen today on a good pitch bowlers give you less to hit still give you stuff to hit and he's but I I up until that ball he got out to I was I thought he was handling well and yeah you might not have the same strike rate there might be times where you do have to soak it up a little bit and he was soaking it up so he played well and we gutted he didn't go on and he had to handle the run out as well

yeah and and you wouldn't have known actually here the initial reaction you saw and and and we heard on the stump mic certainly when you're on the TV that how much the New Zealanders were reminding him of it for the next 15, 20 minutes as you do. You're kind of a free target from there, but he handled it well. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. On the open road, conditions change. Your composure doesn't have to. But technologies like terrain response to and clear sight ground view, range rover sport brings confidence and control the challenging conditions. It's Four more at range rover.ca. What do Beatles member, Sir Paul McCartney,

YouTube megastar, Mr. Beast, and former Facebook executive Cheryl Sandberg, all have in common. They're all being discussed in the new season of Good Bad Billionaire, the podcast which explores the lives and fortunes of the world's super rich. That's Good Bad Billionaire from the BBC World Service. Listen now, search for Good Bad Billionaire, wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Now, I'm looking forward to this, England going into this game with, they've got three debitants, of course,

and that means three sets of nervous parents. And we've all been there. Oh my dear old dad here on my debut. For one, it's been a long wait because Jordan Cox was set to make his test debut two years ago in New Zealand. His dad was in the queue at Heathrow Airport about to set off when he got the news

that Cox had broken his finger training in the nets in Queensland. Stafford is lovely to meet you. Welcome. Welcome. Oh, come on. How... What a day.

A new, I know, a new... Test playing father and all that. I mean, it's very special, isn't it? It is, well, yesterday was a very emotional day. Yes. For the whole family. So who's here? So his mum was here and his brother and his girlfriend.

Yeah, so it was a good gathering. Good gathering, yeah. And it's all very different these days because actually you get to go down. It's going on the pitch. So how does the day start? I mean, you're not staying in the same hotel or anything. No, no, no. We had to still have to,

getting in on public transport, I'm afraid. Okay. But I actually did an Instagram post where posted what I did during the day. So it's quite interesting. So I travelled up on the train, got the underground with everyone else talking about the test match. Yeah. Up to an oval or voxel? Into voxel.

Into voxel, yeah. A little walk up. And listening to everyone talking about Sonny Baker and Jordan Cox and James Roo. That must have been amazing. Well, it is. It is. Sometimes when the comments are flying around you have to bite your tongue and focus on something else. Yes. It's an interesting walk.

What's that cocks doing? Exactly right. Oh dear. Would you? That might be tomorrow. And so right, so you get to the ground and then presumably your kind of marshaled round-eye to get out to the middle. So the ECB very kindly look after us on the terrace yesterday and then a lady Laura that walks us down. Right.

a young man down there and then we got ushered on into the huddle. Yeah, it was a big huddle yesterday. It was a big huddle yesterday. It was like an army down there. It was. Yeah, we had the Ruse and obviously Sonny Baker's parents as well. So it was a nice day. It was an emotional day for all of us, I think.

So you're standing in that big circle. That's when the caps are presented, of course. So who presented Jordan with his? So Nass, which was a nice touch, bearing in mind the Essex touch. He obviously got a little, John's. drive in there about crossing the bridge and joining the right county from Kent. That sounds like NASA. Yes, yeah.

So he got that in quite early. But that was a nice touch because NASA's known Jordan since he was about 13 when he played against his boys, a new hall. Oh, at school? At school. Right, okay. Yeah, there was a final under 15, under 15s, 30 over final. And Jordan was a little slow to start off with, but picked up the pace, how we say. So NASA, he made an impression on NASA that day.

Yeah, well, for that age to make an impression. So what else is all sort of patriotic stuff from NASA? What does he say at moments like that, I wonder? Well, he obviously said to Jordan that he needed to thank his parents for all the hard grafts that they helped him get there, but also the people from Kent that obviously helped him get there as well. He said there's a lot of people that have helped him get to that. Yeah, exactly. I spoke to Gucci this morning, and he said, you know, talent's one thing,

but putting numbers on the board is the next thing for Jordan to conquer. hopefully fingers crossed. Yeah. You can make a start on that today or tomorrow, hopefully tomorrow. Did you speak to him after the presentation? I mean was he... Briefly. Was he whisked away? Yeah, it's all very brief because you don't like to... You don't like to... ...encroach on their working time.

You know, there's always a defining line as a parent, isn't there, in terms of that's his job. And you don't want to have any say in it. and it became very evident to me when he became a pro that that's his job and I shouldn't interfere with it. As much as I might have a view on something, he said it's best kept as my own view. He wants to go about it in his way. And he's right because in the industry that I used to work in, if he was to come up to me and say, well, you should be doing that or you should be doing this differently, I'd probably say, well, what's he got to do with you?

What do you know about it? Exactly. So, you know, it's very much at his environment. let's just leave him to get on and work it out. But it is nice and I guess you are obviously new to this, but there is a really nice environment with the families actually. They never used to be. Right.

The families are very welcome, aren't they? They are. They look at the top up here. They look after us, they do. And you all get to know each other. Yes. Which is really rather lovely. Well, when you're travelling the world,

yes, exactly. It helps to have a friend you face in an airport or wherever you might be. Yes. But this story about New Zealand though, I mean, that must have been devastating. was it because he's a little bit different to what you said but not a not a great deal different but so um i was sitting at home watching telly at 10 o'clock at night bear in mind that jordan had rung me two hours before that from the team bus because they were playing um they were playing a warm-up game against the president's 11th queenstown yeah i think um this was when he was going to get its first test right so that was a warm-up game against the president's 11 in new zealand and um um the phone was ringing and my wife said, Jordan's calling you and I said,

well, don't think so because he's playing. And my bags were packed, ready to go. And he said, you better hold off on coming out. And I said, what's going on?

And he said, I'm in an ambulance, I think I've broken my thumb. I'm like, oh. So that was, that was the end of that. That's tough, isn't it? To be brutally honest with you,

he found that very difficult to come back from. emotionally because he built that up because that was he was going to get his test cap and that's everything he strived for and he knew that by breaking his finger that that was going to let someone else have the opportunity if they took that opportunity which Jacob did and hats off to him and Jordan's had to find a way of getting back and I said you know I said at the time what he's meant to be is meant to be I said you know you'll get your turn

when the time is right yeah yeah and and then when he had the side strain in Somerset and that was the next one. That was the next one. It's quite an unusual injury too for a bad. A very unusual injury but the pitch dictated that Leach was going to bowl from one end

and he had nine players on one side of the pit. And Jordan had no alternative but reverse sweeping and he overstretched on one and that's when he got his side strain which was quite bizarre really but today you know if you look at if you in hindsight

here is the ideal place for him to make his debut because this is almost like his second home because playing for the Oval Invincibles. Of course, yes. I mean, he knows the ground. He knows the pitch. He knows the dressing rooms. He knows everything. You know, and he's staying in a familiar hotel.

Yes. So everything's familiar for him. So, you know, it was meant to be, wasn't it? How does it feel? I mean, you, you're a cricketer, weren't you? You're an umpire, didn't you? I was still umpire. Yeah.

Can's still on league. Ken, a December Premier League. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, it's a decent standard. Yes. So therefore, it must have been tempting to be involved in his cricket upbringing there, was it? I mean, at what point did you stop?

And, I mean, his other coaches and the pros and so on get involved. Yeah, well, you tend to, well, I don't know how, I can't speak for every other parent that gets involved. But you tend to sit back and let him be guided by his coaches because they're more experienced than I am, it will ever be. and he he would always sit in so he went through the age groups from, he started at age nine playing under 11s for Kent

and went through the whole age group including the academy and I used to take him and his mother used to take him up and down the country to various different places and if he wanted to talk about it we'd talk about it if he didn't want to talk about it

we didn't talk about it he would be the main instigator of that conversation we would well that's that's that's quite something because you do see a lot of parents who kind of interfere, they're a bit overpowering. Well, I think it's because they want their child to succeed. There's a lot of people out there that want their child to succeed. And it's quite strange.

Jordan had a very strange mentality when it came to playing because, and the coaches found it very strange as well. And as much as when he got out, he wasn't overly fussed. Right, okay. He would always say, well, there's another game next week. I'll get runs next week. Yeah. And he had that mentality. If you got out, I remember vividly

that I took him all the way to Norfolk to play in an under 12s game. And he got a first baller. And he walked off and he put his stuff in his bag and sat on the boundary and I walked around and I said, everything okay? And he said, there's another going next week. So I'll get runs next week.

I was like, well, for a 12 year. Well, that's a really good attitude, isn't it? Yeah. And I think that's probably why he's got a lot of self. You know, he's half Australian. his mother's Australian. Yes. And I think that side of his DNA is Australian.

So he's got a bit of a swagger about it. Yeah, sure. As said, actually, in the huddle that we had, he's got a bit of a swagger about the way he plays cricket. And he said, whatever you do, don't lose that. Keep that going. Yeah, because that's got you here. Yeah, as long as he doesn't sort of go too far.

I'm arrogant, yeah. It's perceived to be arrogant, isn't it? A bit of a strut. Bit of a Viv Richards. Yeah, well, yes. Well, yeah. Well, I hope Jordan scores as many runs as 50. He's probably quite calm in there, is he?

I would think so. I think it will dawn on him when he walks out and he thinks, okay, let's just get bat on ball and go from there. And at what point, I mean, I often get asked this by parents, did you know? I mean, how many years ahead was he of his age group, if you like? His peers, so you actually think, actually,

you know, he's going to be good. and I don't know, I remember, you know, I was playing for my school team at 14, you know, the 18-year-olds. And that, to me, felt like the sort of gap. Right. You know, you know. Funnily enough, his brother played, and he used to play in all the county age groups, his brother, who's two years ahead of him. And unfortunately, he broke his collarbone and couldn't throw a ball in from a boundary after he broke it. Right.

His days were numbered. but they are still very close but Jordan used to play in Ashley's his brother's team which was two years ahead of himself and he was our best of the best of the bunch and his brother would say that when he was playing at Felstead he plays two

years above himself and they played a final Arndal and he was playing two years ahead of himself and he opened the batting and he was just fine so that's that's the sort of different isn't there? Yes. Yeah, yeah. And for a modern young player then,

it's always talk about, obviously, franchise cricket and the demands on the world. Jordan would still want to be a test cricket. I mean, if you had to say, what do you want to be? That's a very interesting thought process. So we were about to have a conversation

with Jordan over the next few weeks about what it is he wants out of life because the life of a cricket is quite short. Yeah, yeah. And he has always maintained that having an England test cap on his CV is what he wanted. And that is what he wanted. Yes.

But, you know, the white ball staff is very appealing and don't get me wrong, that sets, will set him up for the rest of his life. Absolutely. I mean, earn a great living. There's a lot of money to be earned out. Yes, exactly. But it's every child is going to be different. You know, you look at his friend, Will Smead, that wanted to go whiteball. and he's come back now

and doing Red Bull and doing very well but as you say there's a lot of money to be out of whiteball cricket isn't there and it's very tempting you know when he went out to the IPL I was against it right

because he didn't play single game didn't play a game did he know that must be tough his agent and Jordan were hellbent they said look since he's moved from Kent to Essex in first class cricket he's averaging 65 he has scored

1,600 runs over two years he's got nothing more to prove he said but he will learn more by being in that environment than he will back here so we're playing first class cricket here yes it's that's a yeah I mean

Jagger Bethel's in the same thing was yes yeah so the move from Kent which was heart wrenching for Jordan the move from Kent to Essex was a revelation for him because the first seat he said he learned more in that first season from Dean Elgar than he had in the two or three years that he had at Kent and senior cricket and that has enabled him to start building an innings because Dean Algar has obviously been around the player absolutely action there as well read somewhere about him beating yeah he met Verat the day before the test that's quite something too yeah he made an impression in in the IPL he got on very well with the guys he's a he's a likable little

chap. He's a practical joker. I've not met him yet, by the way. You've not? No, I'll get out there tomorrow. I'll go and say hello. I'll go and say hello. No, him and Verrat got on very well, and Virat gives a lot of information, and Jordan absorbs a lot of information,

and he just went to Verrett and said, look, what can I expect tomorrow? Is there a tempo? How shall I go about things? Yeah, well, good old Virat as well. Yes, yeah, no, he lives in Notting Hill. So, yeah, he's a Jordan game.

call and said, could we meet up? And he was like, yeah, let's do it. Well, that was Stafford Cox, the father of England debutant Jordan, speaking to Agers here at the Oval. Check out the highlights on today at the Test on BBC Eye Player, where you'll also find our series going inside the England camp at the T20 World Cup. But that's it for this episode of the TMS podcast. Make sure you're subscribed so you never miss an episode.

Test match special is back on air for the third day's play between England and New Zealand. I will speak to you then. Five lights forth. My favourite World Cup moment? It's the first World Cup I properly remember watching. Argentina 78. The ticker tape, Mario Kempes, Ari Hahn's scoring goals from miles out,

and always one of my favourite World Cup moments, Archie Gemmell's great goal for Scotland against the Dutch. What makes the World Cup such a special tournament is the atmosphere, the colour, it is a meeting of the nations, and of people who love football. World Cup 2026. Listen on BBC Sounds.

Step inside the Range Rover's sport and experience refinement in every detail. With features like cabin air purification and active noise cancellation, every drive feels composed and considered. Explore more atrangerover.ca. What do Beatles member Sir Paul McCartney? YouTube megastar, Mr. Beast, and former Facebook executive Cheryl Sandberg all have in common. They're all being discussed in the new season of Good Bad Billionaire,

the podcast which explores the lives and fortunes of the world's super rich. That's Good Bad Billionaire from the BBC World Service. Listen now, search for Good Bad Billionaire wherever you get your BBC podcasts.