Test Match Special - “I’m Done” Stokes says no going back on retirement.

Episode Date: June 29, 2026

Ben Stokes joins the podcast as he ends up on the losing side in his last international game.Jonathan Agnew also gets the thoughts of Michael Vaughan, Sir Alastair Cook, Steven Finn, Andy Zaltzman and Jeremy Coney.Plus, we hear from Brendon McCullum, Joe Root, Tom Latham and Daryl Mitchell.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. He's widely recognised as one of the greatest footballers in history. He's won the prestigious Ballandour Award five times. He's the all-time leading goal scorer in professional football. And according to the Bloomberg Billionaires Index, he's the first active footballer in history to achieve billionaire status. Guess who we're talking about yet? That's right. Good Bad Billionaire is exploring the life and fortune of football icon Cristiano Ronaldo.

That's good bad billionaire from the BBC World Service. Listen now, wherever you get your BBC podcasts. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. So as expected, the international career of Ben Stokes finishes with defeat as New Zealand completed a 160 run win. England will bowled out for 212. Only Jamie Smith offered some resistance with 60. So it's New Zealand who complete a rare series win in England.

To come we'll get the thoughts of Michael Vaughn, Sir Alastair Cook, Stephen Finn and his Outsman, and Jeremy Coney, and we'll hear from Brendan McCullum, Joe Root, Tom Latham and Darrell Mitchell, but there's only one place to start, and that's with Ben Stokes. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Pretty hard-fought game, you know, pretty tough one to be involved in, obviously. You know, games going down to the fifth day. They always are physically and mentally tiring and think at the start of the game as well

with the heat that was around, I think, the way that both teams stuck at it and just kept coming in in pretty testing conditions, I think was a testament to the hard work and the commitment that both teams, you know, showed towards playing the sport. I think it's first thing's a bit light again. No, I think we did pretty well to get up to the,

you know, close to the total that, you know, New Zealand ended up putting on the board. And, you know, I think as the game gone on, you could see what the weather had done to the pitch. You know, it was pretty docile on the first sort of day and a half. And then when the heat started to bake the wicked, it started to become a little bit more up and down. And, you know, that's one of the great things about, you know, test cricket is that, you know, every day is different to the one before it. And, you know, you probably know that it's going to be different for every day after that as well. So, look, conditions changed.

And, you know, I think, you know, having to adapt to those things, I think both teams did that pretty well. And I think looking back, obviously, at the start of the game, New Zealand being 320 for none was obviously a big part of it. But I thought the way that we were able to fight ourselves back into the game by being pretty relentless with the ball in both innings. It was always going to be a difficult run chase on that wicket as it was just getting worse and worse to be able to score on and had some balls in there with some pretty dangerous things flying around up and down. So look, overall, it's been a game of both teams just being able to. to stick in and then try and make it count when that opportunity presented itself. You're going to miss this? I think I'm going to miss everything to do with this, but, you know, I guess that's,

you know, part of, I don't know, getting older, I guess. You're 35, yeah, but there's lots of things that, you know, you are going to miss. There's some things that you're probably glad to maybe not have to do anymore. Not saying like that. Not saying this is one of them, I guess. But no, look, it's been a great ride. I've enjoyed every single minute. of it, you know, when I first started out just as a player and as I slowly grew into more of a leadership role than then obviously over the last four and a half years, been able to be captain.

It's been absolutely fantastic. It would have been great to have gone out with a series winner and a win, but, you know, that's in a perfect world and this world certainly isn't perfect. But, you know, I'm very happy and very pleased with what I've sort of managed to achieve as a player and as, you know, as a captain, you always sort of feel like you want more. but I've given, you know, a lot of myself to the shirt. And, yeah, it's a lot of sacrifice that have gone into it, not just myself but other people. And I guess all the emotions of knowing that you're not going to be doing this anymore,

there's quite a few. But I've gone through them all and, yeah, there's sadness, but also there's a bit of excitement there today still as well. Yeah, I think people are you aware that people kind of try to work out why you've done it as well, the timing and so on? I mean, are you aware of that sort of conversation? I think yeah and I accept that people you know might be asking questions but you know at the end of the day this is a decision that I've taken and I hope that people can respect that but I do have an understanding that people might be scratching their heads you know wondering why there could be many reasons but I think the most important reason I hope people can understand and respect that is that I've taken this decision because I feel it's the best one for me yeah of course but there's nothing to do with the last couple of weeks events have had anything to do with this I think you know again there's been in a series of unfortunate events happen which you know I'm sure you're over the next couple of weeks you'll be able to maybe decompress and say it's probably, you know, has it contributed?

Maybe, but there's an override in fact where over the last six to 12 months where I think that just everything that I've sort of done over a long period of time has taken its toll. And as I said yesterday, being in this role as captain as good as it is, as exciting it is and as a bigger runner as it is, you know, there is some negative effects to doing it. And, you know, that's, I guess that's the unfortunate side that people don't always get to see. of as good as it is, there are some moments where it does test you and sometimes you feel like you've maybe just had enough of it and yeah. Big one coming up.

Are you really going to sit on the sofa next summer watching the ashes from home? I mean, I don't know how we've gone from yesterday. I guess you asking me about the ashes next year. Come on. Don't flannel. Are you really going to sit on the sofa and watch the ashes? Over the next year, I'm not sure of, you know, physically I won't be able to be in shape to be able to rock it out there and play

in touch. You play for Durham, my chef? Yes, a little bit different. Look, I'm, I guess, again, people have can say what they want to say. They can have an opinion about everything they want to do, but look, I am incredibly content with everything right now. It's a decision that isn't, you know, you don't take lightly. It has taken a lot of time, spoken to a lot of people close to me. I'm done, mate, and I'm very happy. And I'll just, I think, I think it be nice for it to just be understanding that through everything that's gone on over the last couple of weeks, it's just not focus on that too much. You know, I've come out and I'm happy and I've said it and I hope I've explained myself in a way that people can understand. There's a definite no, no, no better of a hat like we had a couple years ago.

No. Sure. Sure. Well, look, thank you for, I always say this every captain. I've seen a few off now, Ben, and I'm sad that you're going now. Thank you for all the time you've given us. not always easy at these interviews, it's not. And thank you for the time and the effort you've always made. I do appreciate it, thank you.

No, I do. Look, I appreciate you've got a job to do, I've got a job to do, and look, we've always had a few jowls over the years, I guess. They've been fun, I've always looked forward to them then. And I'm sure you'll... I think I'm two-one up. Yeah, well, I'm not sure about that. And I'm sure you'll have some other ones where you have a few jails with,

but again, look, you know, back and forth have been enjoyable and it's been part of the job. But, you know, I think we've probably with respect each other enough to know that we've both got a job to do. Look after yourself. Hope you come and see us. Thank you. Cheers, Ben. There we go. Lovely. There you are.

I think lots of people listening to that as well, which is really nice. Oh, it's always a bit sad to say goodbye to the captain. You do, you have, you know, you've done it with me. You have a sort of, you know, a bit of a relationship goes, isn't it? And it is hard. Up and down, it's tough. Tough for them coming out when they've lost and got to, you know, talking from a microphone straight away. He's always been good fun.

It's always been challenging with Ben. Yeah, yeah, he has. I think he answered my fuel on the fire question. I don't think I'm going to go looking for any fuel anymore. I think my log collection in my garden will stay in my garden. Oh, let's see, but he's been great, hasn't he? I mean, I think when you're a captain of England, you've got to have more to your kind of strings than just playing.

You've got to be able to understand the media. You've got to be able to talk. you've got to be able to talk yourself through a few tricky positions. You obviously have to explain a few times why your team have lost, and you've got to be a very good actor. I think it proves that everyone's a human being. And when you're seeing Ben Stokes saying that he's done, he's gone, it just shows you you can be as tough,

and he's as tough as any cricket that's ever represented, the three lines. But eventually, you know, everyone has a moment where you've just had enough, and it's obviously come for Ben Stokes now. I'm done, mate. That kind of said it, didn't it, right? Yeah, and there was no doubt about, when you look at him in the eyes, you can always tell, can you?

When you stood there looking someone in the eyes when they answered that question, and that can tell you if there's a bit of a glint there, and by the way that he spoke and what he looked like when he said there, it makes me believe even more that that truly is the end. And the way that he, we've talked about, his character, How about he latches onto situations and is impulsive on the pitch when making decisions that makes him a brilliant player

maybe that has happened off it with his decision to retire and as soon as he's decided that that is what he believes is the right thing to do he's done. In a way I think it's probably better for the team to know because it'll stop the likes of myself you finish something going.

Just keep going otherwise, aren't it? I think if he can make that decision and in a few months, time. Let's just wait and see what happens. But at the end of this season, I'll no doubt go and play a few games for Durham. And if he says, look, I'm completely done. I think it'd be quite good for the England team in a way because then they know. They know that they've got to try and create a cricket team without an incredible all-rounder.

How are they going to fill that void? It'll be down to Marcus North, the selector, to try and work out a formula with, obviously, the coach. Let's see who the coach is in a few weeks' time. Who knows what's going to happen. But English cricket now will have to find a formula without. If you look at, you know, in the 80s, both them, it's quite easy to pick a team because you've got an incredible all-round. I was very fortunate to have Freddie Flintoff.

And obviously, over the last 10 years, English cricket have had Ben Stokes. So your team almost picked each up. He needs one. Yeah, well, it's a great opportunity for a load of young players. I can't think of any that stand out at the minute. I guess Ray and Armoured would be a spinning all-rounder that has an opportunity. But, you know, it's an opportunity now for the team to move on without an incredible player, an incredible person.

It's not just his game they're going to miss. It's that mentality. And I look around this England team and I think, where's that mentality going to come from? He said maybe when I said that the last two weeks have an impact? I would say definitely. I mean, you know, I think he's been thinking for a while, but, you know, when you have done it for such a long period of time

and you've given English cricket so much and probably that kind of vulnerability stage which he was at when you need your whole team to back you, the whole of the ECB to suddenly get behind you and they didn't, I would think that was the final nail. Cookie, I don't know how much you heard of the Stokes interview there. Do you manage to get some of it or not? Pretty much, he hasn't said anything different to what he said yesterday.

And the way I enjoyed your little joust them, it was quite good fun at the end. But if I was coming back, as you asked me at lunchtime, I don't think he is. I think generally, as I said, he hasn't played a huge match cricket the last couple of months. So that stuff has been on his mind by the looks and he's come back here. And he hasn't felt the same. And Australia, going away to Australia and losing like they did as a captain is a really hard place to come back from. And the energy that he puts into everything, to me, it sounds like he's just, you know, he's just had enough. And it's not just the energy for himself.

It's the energy for the team, the empathy he has, you know, the care for the team he has, the care for his teammates. He properly has thrown himself into this job. I am not surprised and this is a day to remember what he's done rather than trying to add more and more narratives that we like. In a way, we're trying to kill the narrative, I guess, in just getting absolute clarity. What have we got? We've got Joffar Archer's player of the series for England.

Nathan Smith for New Zealand. Got my eye on Tom Latham over there because he's only the fourth, it's only the fourth New Zealand team to come here and to do. this. So it's really quite very, very significant indeed for his team. Congratulations. Tom, well done. Only the fourth team to come

here and do this. What does that mean to you? Yeah, really special. I guess when you set out at the start of a tour obviously the end goals to I guess be in this position we are now but to me it's the I think the hard work that we're put in. We're faced with a little bit of adversity in this test match especially

but to come out and play our style and stick to our brand is best we can to me that's the most pleasing thing and I guess to be standing here now I guess it makes it all worth it yeah I mean a bit of adversity actually you've been trying to stick us a side together for most of the series yeah we have but I guess first couple of games you know we were right but you know coming here we had obviously three changes and then a concussion replacement bowler going down today another bowler on half a leg you know so I guess that's just I guess moments you look back on and you know just really proud of the team

effort. I think that's probably been the most pleasing thing. It's been different guys who put their hands up at different times and you know that throughout a series is you do rely on your whole squad and we've certainly seen that this series. Yeah, and to come back from Lords, I remember talking to you then, I mean it's a crazy game and what happened

and little cricket afterwards, to come back as you have, we'll be really delighted. Yeah, I think like yeah, in terms of the result, obviously didn't fall our way at Lords but, you know, I said after that game we did a lot of good stuff you know, throughout that test match and you know it was a bit of a flip of the coin in terms of you know which way the result could have gone

we obviously fell on the wrong side but I think the way we were able to I guess come back and and play our style at the Oval and same here on a wicket that's you know it was reasonably flat to I guess get as much out of it as we could and and the guys yeah stood up over the last couple of days which is really pleasing well they did just one more I mean I see Darren Mitchell standing I saw I don't know how the camera honed in on his ribs up there but they're horrible I hear that's a brave innings yeah yeah I think you know

someone like someone like Daryl I guess when situations get a little bit tricky always tends to stand up for us which is you know a perfect scenario for him to come in and I thought what him in Ruchin did yesterday to be able to I guess

settle the nerves in the dressing room you know throughout that first session you know then for him to be able to kick on with the rest of the order and for him to I guess bring up a milestone was you know obviously really special and a really important innings

in the context of the game so hence why he standing there with the big champagne which is great. Well, you could have had it too. I mean, you must be delighted as captain as well to contribute like that with a really big hundred. Yeah, I think any time you win the toss and you decide to bet, I guess you want to set the tone. And, you know, it was very pleasing. Obviously, being a little bit light of runs this series, but I guess when the team needed it, it was nice to be able to stand up and, I guess, make a significant contribution.

And I guess more the partnership with Dev, I think, was probably the most pleasing thing to put the guys in a really good position. You know, it probably would have been nice to kick on, you know, get a little bit more from the position we were. But I guess in the context of the game, you know, it was a really good partnership to set the tone. And, yeah, obviously very pleased. Enjoy the rest of the day, Tom.

I'm sure you will. Thank you for speaking to us every time, by the way. It's much appreciate it. Congratulations. Tom Latham, the captain of New Zealand. Oh, we've got a quick change. Brendan, what's, New Zealand to New Zealand? Brendan McCullum.

Where do we start? Do you start with, well, the results, I guess, disappointing games to the series? Yeah, obviously disappointing. We came in with high hopes and going 1-0 up in the series. We're very confident that we're going to be able to get a series result.

But unfortunately, the relentlessness of a very good New Zealand side put us under pressure. We weren't able to sustain some of those moments throughout, which is a reflection from our point of view. And ultimately, we're just a bit outclass towards end.

Did the pitch and conditions create that sort of chase, if you like, last night and the rather unusual approach to chasing down a big target? Yeah, look, it was definitely situational. I guess from our point of view, we felt we were quite a long way behind the game with the pitch deteriorating the way it was and obviously going to be faced with the trickiest batting conditions on day five as well. We also thought, felt that scoring was going to be incredibly difficult once the ball got

soft and to be able to try and maintain a cruising speed, which would be required on. on the last day if we weren't able to eat into the target enough last night was going to be very difficult. So we obviously didn't want to be four down last night but I thought the approach to try and take out as much of the chase as we possibly could last night and then hopefully be able to give ourselves an opportunity today but you know in the end a couple of direct hit runouts as well didn't help. But you know again it was sort of we were a long way behind the game so we had to try and find a way to to be able to pivot and hope hopefully be able to come out with the result. But we weren't able to do it.

We've been by a better side. Right, Ben Stokes, Brandon. Were you surprised by his decision? Oh, look, surprised enough. Surprise would be the word. Stokes and I have been speaking a lot over last couple of weeks, and I'm not going to go into those conversations,

but when he tapped me on the shoulder yesterday morning when we got to the ground and said, as I'm done, my first reaction was to try and talk them down and to try and slow things down a little bit. So you tried? Yeah, of course I tried it. But Stokesy had made up his mind

and it became pretty obvious that he was keen to step away. From there I guess it sort of turned to just a bit sad really. Sad because for four years we've worked intimately together and we've been through a lot together. We started this journey and we sort of tried to build and shape what we think is the right way forward for this cricket team and to try and help English cricket.

It became obvious that it hadn't been easy on Stokesy. It's a long time to captain an international cricket team and the English team in particular and the scrutiny and the pressures that come with it. But I'd rather look back on the fondness of our time together rather than sort of focused on anything else. I think he was an inspiration to work with. I call him a good friend and I wish him all the very best for the future. Talk about the journey. Are you still on that journey? Brendan, do you want to carry on?

Yeah, of course I do. My commitment to English cricket is never wavered. I firmly believe in the direction that we can get this team to take. And this is a disappointing result because we would love to have been able to get the right result in this series and show some of the improvements that we'd tried to implement from Australia. I thought Lords was an excellent example of that. The second test match was clearly difficult. and in this test match we had our chances whilst not being able to get across the line.

But I'm excited about the level of talent which sits within English cricket. I'm very confident in the direction that we need to go and what changes are needed to be made and how we keep improving. And with that, the enthusiasm for the job doesn't waver. How about the new captain? I mean, you've even sat and thought up there about that and what the process might be to who that new captain will be? Yeah, look, we've got lots of options, right?

There's a lot of good leaders within the side and lots of guys who will, I'm sure, do a fabulous job when the time comes. But I think for now it's just a matter of us trying to enjoy Ben's last day as England captain, and then over the coming days, weeks, we'll start to put some plans in place there. But for now, I just want to kind of focus on Ben and everything he's achieved for English cricket. He wore his heart and his sleeve throughout his entire time,

not just as a player but even more so the last four years as a captain and we want to make sure that he enjoys enjoys his final day in this dressing room as England test captain just a last one for me bro and this is going to be a reset wasn't it this series you know try and put things right and on track again lost the series there's been off the field stuff do you think you have reset and gone forward you've lost the captain the most influential player where do you think english stands now as opposed to the first day of this series? I think we've got to admit that we made some mistakes throughout the series and ultimately didn't get what we came for which was to a series win.

You know it's been a bit going on off the field. There's been lots where we've had lots of things we've had to deal with off the field and you know some of those things can be can be quite big distractions and one thing I was proud of is that the guys were actually able to still galvanise as a unit and stay close as a unit. And I thought that would give us our best opportunity in the series. We weren't quite able to get there, but there is some good stuff. And I still believe that we have a firm direction of what we're wanting to do

and how we're wanting to play and what we're wanting to achieve. And just because you haven't won doesn't necessarily mean that those things are wrong. I think we will continue to look to improve, will continue to look to evolve, continue to look to whilst having our identity keep progressing and improving and ultimately become a better cricket team and I'm excited about what what that looks like and as I say my my affection and enthusiasm for the job hasn't wavered and I'm excited about what what the future holds. Braden thank you for talking to us I'll see you see you at the next the next one Brandon McCollum England's coach well his enthusiasm for the job

remains no question of of anything changing there at least from his perspective Michael Yeah, well wait and see. I mean, let's let the dust settle. But the batting last night has been a continuous trend across the last four and a bit years. Nothing seems to have changed in terms of the smartness required in the key moments in test match cricket. In the winter they got a little bit of a leeway. Maybe that was the time to make the change. But I've seen enough to suggest that the coaching team here are not getting the maximum amount of this team. We saw that last night.

It's been dumb cricket for two last night. long and for England to really get back on track. No Ben Stokes. Let's see who's going to be the captain. We talked about the reset and the reset happened in a way, but it didn't happen in terms of any changes. And I just can't see how the team move forward without a change because the style of cricket required to be the best team in the world.

It's not the style that we saw last night, what we saw in Perth, what we saw against India at the Oval, last year, what we've seen for a couple of years. And if England cricket desperately want to be the best team in the world, world I believe there'll be better coaches out there to maximise more out of this team he also said that there are a lot of natural leaders in that team but I asked him about the new captain so we we've talked about Brooke we've talked about Rube I'm wondering who else he might he might have in mind cookie yes so Jacob

Bessel's captain they pushed him forward for a T20 captain role in Ireland I think where we're out now is actually after the initial burst of like Stokes McCutton, you know, we then had, we've now had a period of results going downhill. That is, you know, two wins out, I want to say 11, is that right? Two out of ten. And I don't quite know what's happened just before that as well. So they're on a downward, a downward spiral. And what we, Australia is an incredibly hard place to go and play and win. Do you agree with that, Finney? I do. And I think the question now is going to be, how do you form a rock solid, between the new captain and the coach,

and that's the question that's going to have to be asked by the hierarchy. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. How did a boycott Jimmy become a billionaire from posting videos? On good, bad billionaire. We're going to find out how the world's most popular YouTuber, Mr. Beast, made his fortune. He's buried himself in a coffin for days. Counted to 100,000 on camera. and even recreated squid games all in an attempt to go viral on the internet.

But it all started when he gave a homeless man $10,000. So is he a philanthropist reshaping capitalism? Or is he just the king of the attention economy? Find out on good bad billionaire. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Right, here's the man in the match. And well played too. I've seen those ribs on the telly.

If I give you quick, no, I'm not going to do that. They look sore. I'm not sure you want to see my rig on the telly, I don't know how that snuck up there, but yeah, nice to get the win and win the series. That was a brave knock. I think, yeah, I guess it's just part of the job, isn't it? When you play test cricket, you try and find ways to get the job done, whatever it might be. And yeah, nice to get the win.

Yeah. Well, what does it mean? I said to Tom Latham about, you know, you're only the fourth New Zealand team ever to come here and to win, and that's really significant. Yeah, look, I guess we look at our history. We did it in 99. We won a one-one-nil series before the Test Championship, a few years. ago but I guess to come here and and do it in a style that's true to us as black caps and as Kiwis is something we're really proud of and yeah it's it's it's

gonna be a cool one to reflect on yeah there's a lot of talk about brands I mean England attempting this brand what is the black caps brand then is it is it just that that that that fight yeah look we're we're a small country down the bottom of the earth and it's something that I guess we pride ourselves on is that yeah we just we get stuck into whatever's needed to be done and and try and get the job done sometimes it's being pretty and sometimes it's getting dirty and and doing the little things really well. So yeah, just really proud of this group.

I think the way everyone stepped up at different parts of the series as well as the squad is really cool to see. Yeah, and just the one about the future of test cricket really. I mean, you're winning, you're beating teams. There's always kind of New Zealand's lumped in with those well, the future of test cricket in New Zealand, you know, kind of lumped in with the West Indians and others.

Do you feel that as players or not? Are you constantly having to fight for test cricket in New Zealand? Look for us, it's probably for people more powerful than us as players to decide, But for us, we love playing for our country. We love competing across all three formats, and we've done it as a group for a long time now. So we'll just keep enjoying representing the Silver Fern in New Zealand

and what will be will be in the future. Darrell, let's love you to talk to you. Thank you. Well played. That's a very brave innings. Darryl Mitchell, the man of the match. It's talking about the New Zealand brand, if you like, because everything's a brand these days, Michael.

We know what the England brand has tried to be, and it's, well, it's obviously come unstuck again. you know fighting hard work is that sort of stuff that actually not rocket science is it test cricket no i mean it isn't and ultimately it's about winning you know new zealand's now won eight of the last nine test matches away from home so they're not a team that can only play in their own backyard and they can get on the road they can get on the plane and they work away i mean i mean i last week by over 250 runs and this week by over 150 runs and this week by over 150 they've hammered england you know this is an england side that was at full strength this

week and new zealand have got such resilience and just uh and just uh a get up and go attitude that you know you lose Jameson you lose Henry you lose Clem Phillips and they just get on with it you know the toss was a good one to win you know they won a good toss and they maximised it with that fantastic opening partnership but I'm sick and tired of hearing about brands I just want winning cricket teams you know your brand changes throughout the week you know because your brand might be aggressive Conway and Latham that first afternoon they got the chance to be aggressive so they took it you know Darry Mitchell in the second in

guess what he needed to do you need to dig in because he needed to back a long period of time to wear the pitch down he knew the tactic that England were throwing at him with the keeper stood up was quite a tricky one and you know that's test match cricket all this being flexible well that's what I'm saying this this this test team from England have given us a great ride it's been great fun but they don't win and they don't win against the better teams they've been exposed against India they've been exposed against the Oz's and now they've been exposed against a good New Zealand side in their own backyard and lacking a number of top and at the time of need last night when they threw up a tactical maneuvering

Ben Stokes at the top of the order, no problem. So you get to 50 for naught and then a really good team goes, we've actually won the moment. Just hold your chips a little bit closer now. But we continuously and have done with this test match team, we just throw everything in. And then we lose four or five quick wickets and you lose the test match. And, you know, it's not just been last night.

It's just been a continuous trend. And, you know, English cricket has got to be brutally honest with itself. The T20 team got to the semi-final of the World Cup, but the last five T-20 England teams in World Cups have made the semi-final so whichever combination you have as captain and coach for the last five times in world cups we've made the semi-final you know the 50 over team over the last couple of years you can't tell me that's improved you know there's a lot of work to be done with the 50-over team we're the world champions yeah world champions to now just an okay 50 over team and the test

challenging few weeks and the test team has got our greatest batting at four a huge a talented batter at five one of our greatest if not cricketers at number six ben ducky who's a wonderful opening battle we've got joff racher josh tong gus atkinson you know english cricket has the talent but to lose by two fifty three and by 150 i'm sorry somewhere up at the hierarchy the ECB they've got to realize they've got to realize it's unacceptable to keep losing test matches keep losing soon and if you lose against the better team because you get the wrong end of the conditions you stick your hand them and say look we're a little bit unfortunate we gave them a little bit of a week last week because of the changes so we weren't quite as harsh in them at the overbic

because they had five new players in, three debutants, so you have to be patient with that. This was the week, and this was the week, where England arrived full strength, and they had to produce the result. And they couldn't produce the result. So in my eyes, I can't see what's gonna change going forward unless you change a bit of the back room,

a bit of the management, and we need the reset to start now. They've tried the reset after the ashes. It hasn't worked. No, it hasn't. There's a worse state now than when they press the reset. Absolutely, so now is a reset. Ben's just said he ain't coming back. so you can park Ben Stokes.

They've got to rebuild this England test match team into something that's going to be very, very competitive. And they play Pakistan in a few weeks' time. They'll challenge England. You'd expect England to win. We're in home, but we expected England to beat New Zealand. So don't be surprised if we lose that series. Then go to South Africa rule, quality side,

Bangladesh after Christmas, and then it's pretty much into an Ashy suit where Australia will arrive. And they'll have been planning for next year, probably since the last Ashy Series. So Andrew McDonald's is a wonderful coach, a strategist. And they'll arrive. next summer with a hugely experienced cricket team and as we speak we're nine test matches away from

the ashes could you sit here now and tell me what england seems going to be australia will know their team pretty much now they will going into next summer we've got absolutely no clue do think there be changes cookie i mean do you and you know how these things work i mean can can a new captain come in and in the current structure and i don't know click click with the coach in the four years and and actually produce a winning formula do you think Well, I feel McCollum's main method of coaching has been trying to take pressure off players, trying to play a relaxed, be relaxing and changing room. And I don't think he's going to change his ways.

So as the hierarchy of the ECB are happy with that, then the captain will then fit him with that mould. So they're the questions which the hierarchy need to answer and think, because if McCullin then changes who he is, what makes him different? which they loved at the beginning of it, then is he being authentic to himself? So this is where it's getting confusing. The bond between the captain and the coach, quite clearly, I think, is something's definitely happened.

And we've seen when you're not everything, when not everything's aligned, you see results on the cricket field, which show that. You know, to be really consistent, to be really good, everything has to be aligned. And it's not just aligned for a short period of time,

so I've aligned for a long period of time. and it takes time to build the culture you need, the side you need, and the players to fit into that. So that's what I think is the question is to be answered. How brave are they? How brave they're going to be? I told at the beginning, this is why you get paid, the big bucks as a leadership group, because you make decisions which you're judged on in hindsight. And they made the big decision after the ashes, where the first time in history no one got moved on.

and the results haven't improved. So now we've lost the captain, so that's one, do you know what I mean? So your judge on that decision has improved, now you're going to get judged on what you do now, and that's why they take a lot of money. We've actually lost the one person that we know improves the team, and that's Ben Stokes.

You know, you look at the course of the last few years of Baz McCullum's coaching kind of regime, pretty much every time it's got tough, there's been a message to the players to go out and do what they did last night. That's been his way. It's like freedom. At the start when you've got all the senior players that have been playing for England for a period of time,

I think he was a breath of fresh air to the lights of Broad, Anderson, Wokes, those kind of guys, Joe Root that have been around for a while. And you can get a little bit tired of travelling the world and playing a certain way. I thought he brought the energy. Now he's got a really young set of players. They need coaching. And it can't be that in a pressurized situation,

the only way that you can coach is to create a vibe in the dress room. You send your young players out. I mean, the other guy walked out last night at number six. Played a reverse. sweep first but seriously I mean it's just it's just madness and it can't be there all you do is there's no consequence performance that's been a problem players have been allowed to pretty much get away with this method because the coach has allowed it to happen but if English cricket wants to go on this

roller coaster ride for a bit longer I'll enjoy commentating on it because it's great fun but if they want to be the best team in the world and that's something I go back to Giles Clark when he was the chairman of the ECB he publicly said we're going to be the number one team in the world I don't hear anything like that from the CCB. I hear lots about other stuff, but they never say publicly we are going to be in four years' time

the number one cricket team in the world. If you set that goal, you have to go and get the best of the best. And at the minute, I don't think we've got the best of the best. Let's bring in Jeremy Koenig. We're about to watch New Zealand celebrate the lifting of the trophy here. Tom Latham just giving his thoughts over there. We heard them earlier on. That's quite something, isn't it?

You know, just the fourth team to come here and to win. You've done it. And it means a lot, doesn't it? It'll mean a lot to this team. Different side than we had, but calmly resilient side. I think they play for each other, they care about each other, they grow up together, actually. I've got families all around me every breakfast time,

and they're all together, and all the families are growing up. So if someone doesn't do have a good day, someone else fills the gap. And that's what I think we've seen over it. If you go through it was Conway and it was Latham for a start and then there's some run score. There's a run out by Nichols. Everyone has done something. If you start to look at the performances, then why New Zealand have put themselves into this place.

And that's why they're standing up there, basically. Tom Latham has given Ben Stokes a big hug. He's paid tribute to in there. And now the winning captain of this series, Tom Latham of New Zealand, is going to get his hands on the trophy. There's some champagne ready to go as well. So he was talking about, there we go. Not doing the hacker, are they? That would be too much to bear.

No, I hope not. Anyway, well done then. They do deserve it. And as he was saying, you know, patching teams together, the retirement of their best batsman after the first test match, you know, patching up bowlers here and so on. I mean, they're done it the hard way. They have.

They have. They've had a second side. really and certainly in the bowling ranks haven't they but as I say someone drops out someone comes in and does the job and so it's great to see Smith getting the player of the series really two years ago he wasn't really playing a lot but he's improved markedly in that time does beating England do you think maintain interest in test cricket yeah I know you do love I know you don't look at me when you say that it's a pleasure but I can't explain it more than that breathe

life into New Zealand test cricket. I mean, people talk about, New Zealand's always lumped with the countries that were, it's going to be the big three. Test cricket's on the way out. It's only going to be Australia, England and India. They'll play test cricket again. But actually, the fact they come here and they beat England here,

that kind of defeats an argument, doesn't it? It kind of does, especially when you put it alongside going to India and beating them three no, which wasn't long ago either. That was amazing achievers. And we're going to Australia shortly. That could be tough. That's over Christmas, I think, isn't it?

Oh, we'll wish you well, because we're actually Jeremy. We all love the key. Thank you for your company this series as well. As always, there we are. Jeremy Cody, part of our commentary team of course. Right, okay, they've had their celebration in front of us here and gradually people are filing away. Andy Zaltzwin's up there in the commentary box

for a few last statistical thoughts Andy. Well yeah, a rare home series defeat for England just their third since 2012. The other two were in two-match series to New Zealand. Zealand in 2021. Then you've got to go back to Sri Lanka and a two test series in 2014. Only the sixth home series defeat England have had in their last 46 home series since the 2001 Ashes. So a great achievement for New Zealand. It's their second come from behind series win in their test history. They only previously did so in the 1999 series in England. It's the third series England have lost having taken the lead in the first test in the last three years.

They did into in India in early 2024 in Pakistan later that year and now at home against New Zealand. They only had one such series in the previous 23 years where they'd gone ahead and then lost the series. Just a couple of quick things on New Zealand's players, Darrell Mitchell on this match, 105 catches, excluding wicketkeepers only the fourth time any players ever done that in a test in England. Joe rooted it once in 2015 on this ground against Australia and the Great Garfield sobered twice in his career. and Smith 16 wickets at 23 is the best series figures for New Zealand against England this millennium. And so just looking at Basball as a whole, 49 tests in total, 27 wins, two draws and 20 defeats. But what they achieved in that spectacular first year, year and a half, they've not been able to sustain.

They won their first three series, but only three of their last 10. That's excluding one-off test matches, four drawn series. in those 10 and three defeats. The last 10 tests, as you said, two wins, one draw, seven defeats. That's their worst 10 test run since the last year of Joe Roots, Joe Roots captaincy. And overall, looking at the runs per over, 4.45 over those 49 tests.

And to illustrate how unprecedented this approach was, and it's had successes and it's had numerous failures as well, particularly towards the end. that's 0.6 per over faster than any other team has scored over a 49 test sequence. That equates to around 50 runs per day of batting faster than any team has scored in the history of test cricket. In terms of the players going for, those two key batters, you mentioned, Joe Root and Harry Brooke. Now eight tests without 100, that's the longest run of his career. He's had 12, 20 plus scores in that time, but only one score over 60.

Joe Root's his first series without a century, again excluding one-off tests since the Pakistan series late in 2022. He's had just 350 plus scores in his last eight tests, having been phenomenally productive over the previous two or three years. So a couple of slight concerns over England's two key batters. And all in all, looking back at the story of Basball, the early successes, they were unable to sustain. when they started playing teams of the second or third time, those other teams had started to understand maybe how to neutralise England's approach and they didn't have that experience in the bowling attack they had with Broad and Anderson and Wokes and Wood in that first glorious period.

So, yeah, a fascinating story that maybe fizzled out to a slightly anticlimactic end. Yeah, fair enough. Thank you, Andy. It's possible that we're going to snatch a word with Joe Root. Well, Joe, what was your reaction when you heard that Ben's... Stokes as retire. An array of different emotions. Clearly, he's someone I've played cricket with and against

since been 12 years old. So probably my oldest friend in the game in that regard. Yeah, so I'm clearly, it's been forever present in my international career, you know, a close friend. And just the things that he was able to achieve, I don't think there's any many players that can say, they've made it so many memorable moments and put themselves in those pressure moments and delivered as often and as frequently as he has for for England.

Remarkable career. A brilliant leader of men as well and it clearly be sorely missed. Of course. I mean, did you try and talk him out a bit at all? We obviously had a good conversation about it. But I think that should stay between the two of us. I know exactly what it's like to have the opportunity to Captain England and the effect that it can have on you and but also how hard it is to have to say goodbye to it.

And it was nice to be able to talk that through with him and to have someone that knows exactly what it feels like and has been through that before. But ultimately it's his decision and he's got to be able to. I guess just enjoy the rest of his career and whatever that looks like. And I hope that is exactly what happens now from this point onwards. We can all remember what an incredible player and influence he's been on English cricket. And he can enjoy whatever he chooses to do next. So typical that you got that wicket yesterday.

There's the most Ben Stokes thing ever in there. I mean, yeah, it's, it sums him up perfectly, really. Yeah, yeah. Where, with the England now, that's the question, with that huge hole as captain, but also that, you know, as all rounder, it's such a, such a massive position that has to be filled. Yeah, I mean, clearly there's things to work out down the line, but I think today and it should be about Ben and celebrating him and his career and everything that he's achieved. and as a team we're so grateful for all of it he's done for English cricket

and I think that has to be the main focus clearly there's things further down the line that need to be looked at by people that are in in those positions. Would you do the job again? Like I say I'm not looking past celebrating Ben's career and seeing where we land. further down the track. That's not I know though. Like I said, today is all my focus

this week has been about trying to win this game and win this series and it's bitterly disappointed that it's not been the case, especially knowing that it's going to be Ben's last game. More than anything, just want to make sure that he feels that it's something

that he can remember fondly. Yeah, that's all that's that really matters at the minute. Yeah, sure. Did it feel different? I mean, there was talk about, you know, there was a reset at the start of this series. I mean, did you feel on the, on the back of that disappointing Ashes tour that it was a bit of a different feeling about the way things were done? Yes and no. I mean, everyone was fully committed and invested in what we were trying to achieve, which was winning this series and how we were going to do it. I thought we were prepared very well.

We were very clear on what they were going to throw at us. And, um, you know, how we were going to break them down as a side. And just at times, I don't think we were able and good enough to match them, which is very frustrating with the talent that we've got and the players we've got. Clearly, it's been a very strange series with a lot of different players playing throughout three games. But, you know, we have to learn from some of the stuff that they did and learn from some of the things that we did as well, whether that would be good or bad. and make sure we keep evolving as players and as a team

and moving towards the next target, which is being absolutely ready for what Pakistan bring later on in the summer and being the better of those two sides. Joe, thanks for talking to us. I hope you enjoy your afternoon with Ben. Thank you. So that's it. For this test series, coming up,

we've got the women's test against India. And, of course, there's a three test series for England's men against Pakistan. But there's a busy week of live cricket ahead. Tomorrow is the ICC Women's T20 semi-final. That's from 2.15. That's Australia against the West Indies. On Wednesday, it's the first T-20 between England's men and India from 515.

Thursday, England's Women Against South Africa in the second women's T-20 semifinal from 615. Thanks for listening. Five lights forth. My favourite World Cup moment? It's the first World Cup I properly remember watching. Argentina 78. The ticker tape, Mario Kempes. Harry Hahn's scoring goals from miles out

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