Test Match Special - In at the deep end - the psychology of test cricket

Episode Date: September 12, 2024

Simon Mann is alongside Alastair Cook, Michael Vaughan, Phil Tufnell & Russel Arnold to discuss the pressures of test cricket.From trying to settle in as a debutant to controlling the anxiety of a batter, they tell all as to what was needed to face the challenges at the highest level and where they found their strengths in tough moments. Opening up about issues facing Glenn McGrath, keeping calm when rain delays play, and being “allergic to fielding practice”.

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souvenirs with pesos in Puerto Vallata or sending euros to a loved one in Paris, you know you're getting a fair exchange rate with no extra markups. Be smart. Join the 15 million customers who choose Wise. Download the Wise app today or visit Wise.com. T's and Cs apply. from BBC Radio 5 Live. You said to start the summer that Josh Hull were playing the last test match in the summer I think quite a lot of people would be surprised at that,

not least, Josh Hull himself. So what we've done is we've assembled a panel of experts, former players, he played so much test cricket to talk about their debuts and the experience of being a debut as well and what works, what doesn't work, and they've all had quite unusual, significant debuts.

We've got Sir Alexander Cook here, we've got Michael Horne, and we've got Russell Arnold, as well. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. So let's remind ourselves of your various debuts. Alistair, reflect on your debut. Tell us what happened.

Remind us what happened. Well, it was 2006. It was in Nagport in India. First game of series. I'd actually just flown in from Antigua. So Antigua to Nagport. What were you doing in Antigua? We're playing for the Lions for West Indies, I guess West Indies A, England Lions, England A, whatever it was called then.

And actually at lunchtime of day one, I think we're probably 60 for three. I'll say strangle down out by down the leg side, but actually bounced out by Tina Best. That was back of the day when you could actually just make up how you're out because there's no cameras, but actually. Now there are cameras, so I bet it'd be truthful. And then, yeah, so me and Jimmy left that game at lunchtime, Peter Moore's coach and said you're flying to. Flew to India, then flew to India 48 hours, probably door to door. Why were you flying in the middle of a tour? Injuries? Yeah, so I think, yeah, Skipper.

Yeah, Vaughney's knee was sore in Pakistan. So I actually got called up in 2005, went there but didn't play. Then your knee went, didn't it? But your knee was sore in Pakistan, but you got through that. Then you got to India and actually yours and Simon Jones knee went at the same time. That's when me and Jimmy got called up. Then when I landed in at Heathrow, or Gatwick, whatever it was from Antigua.

That was good old C-Fax, paid 3-4-1 headline Tris Gothic Flying Home. So kind of do a few maths there. There was no other spare batsman apart from kind of Matt Pryor. It was a spare batsman. So I think Ian Bell had also been, there was another one who had been in for warning and then spare batsman. So, yeah, so I literally landed in Nagpur. I think, I'm going to say 36 hours because it's better for the story,

but it might have been more hours, I don't know. and then Duncan Fletcher said, look, you're going to open the bat in 36-hour later. Were you surprised that when he landed you were going to play? Do you think I'm just going to go as cover, really? Well, I was definitely going to as cover exactly as I did in Pakistan because I flew out because of A. Vaughney's knee

and then Strauss was going home for the birth of his first child, but Vaughney's knee survived. So I thought I was cover. Obviously, when I landed in Heathrow and Trez was coming home, then I thought there's a really good chance. That they might play me because there's no other openers to then I thought

well again it was just obviously a selection a selection I don't know if Skipper was still there but a selection call saying whether they either have Matt Pryl's been with us all squad or and play out of his position or pick a proper opener and what happened just remind us all I got a 60

in the first innings and got a hundred and second it wasn't a great 100 by any stretch of the imagination but it was a it was a nice it was a nice way to make my debut before if you go into details because let's be honest someone who back in the day no English player was meant to be able to play spin harbour jan and and kumlae obviously decent players of different decent bowlers

and also you fly halfway around the world jet lag and all that it's a free shot because no one's you could always go i could barely stay awake but obviously you don't think that as a person but as a player because you've got the opportunity to go out and do it but for me it was just it was a bit of a free shot did you feel ready i i the interesting of it about select about making your debut. I was lying on a beach in Antigua and Dave Parson Dave Parsons was

I don't know if it was a spin bowling coach or whatever is obviously part of the setting was like when do you want to make your debut and I said I just don't know I just want to play once ringing I looked at that line up of Truscothic Vaughan Bell Collingwood Peterson Flintoff all like

late 20s early 30s just won the ashes there's no reason why they're going to stop for four or years. So in my eyes it's just I just wanted to play once and that was honestly about four days before I was playing for England so I never thought about being

ready or think I just wanted an opportunity to play and say for once I was in England test cricket Michael your debut that was in South Africa yeah in Joburg The Wanderers 99 I read Duncan Fletcher's book

a few years after and I think he's in his book where he's said that England were taking 16 players on the tour of South Africa. It was around, you know, we'd become the worst team in the world in 99. We never were, but that's what the headlines were, you know, RIP, English cricket, just lost to New Zealand, NASA had come in, Duncan Fletcher come in, and I got a little bit lucky because I think the media and people say, look, we need change, you know, the whole of English test match team just needs a rip-up

and there was opportunities for Darren Maddie went on the tour, Chris Adams went on the tour, Gavin Hamilton went on the tour, and it wasn't until a few years later that I read that 16 were meant to go but Duncan Fletcher demanded 17 because he wanted me to go and he had to say that the selectors I'm taking Michael Vaughn and they said well he's just average 27

in a county season he said yeah but I've seen him against Glamorgan and I saw him against a decent Lamorgan attack Wackar was involved and I think he can play so he gambled I didn't know that at the time I mean if I'd have gone to South Africa with those kind of thoughts I'm last pick not too sure

if I'd have got an opportunity and And the first game was at the diamond dealer, Oppenheimer. We played a South African Select 11. It was a one-day time game, I think it was. And I wasn't in the team. And in the warm-ups playing football, Alan Malawi got injured. So Duncan Fletcher, rather than go bowler for bowler, he went Vaughney's playing.

And he's back in at seven. And we can kind of mix around with the bowling unit. And that's, I could think, that's going, but wait a minute, we're going left arm. quick for like a dodgy ospin who bats what toppord and we're going to bat him at seven

and fortunately for me England lost five quick wickets and I went out there and they had quite a good attack and I was back with Adtherton had opened the bat and he'd survived put on a few runs with us I think he's gone back into NASA

I'm led to believe and said he's the one because it was penciled in I think for Darren Madditt about four in the test match team and then the two four day games leading into the first test NASA you're going to

bat at four and then after the I think I scored runs in the first one and he said look you're

going to play in the test match we're going to play you at number four so

so I knew probably a week or so before that test match debut but the question

of are you ready I didn't feel ready but when are you ready but the one thing that stuck me

straight away in test match cricket once you've taken guard and you're facing your first ball

it's the same ball it's the same pace really. I mean, it might be a little bit more skillful. You see more intimidation with the field cameras obviously and the media are pretty much everywhere and you see big names.

You know, you see big names all over South Africa Island Donald, Sean Pollock, Hansi Cronjic was captain. Callis, Herschel Gibbs, Gary Carras looking around on Lance Klusner. You know, some big, big names and it was almost, I also I can cope with that.

You know, the actual ball, within a few balls. I'm facing Donald and Pollock, and they were bowling nicely, but it was the first few balls I faced I thought oh it isn't that much different to what it's just a game of cricket but it's just everything that surrounds

and also the buildup and in the 90s I think there was you know there's a lot of talk about you know the step up massive step up from counter cricket to test match cricket and I think what they've done brilliantly in the last few years is almost yes it is a step up and the challenge is harder

but I think that culture that England have created around and I think it's been there for a long time. You know, the last 20-odd year, I think England had been very, very... If you look at a lot of debuts, you know, compared to debuts back in the 80s, 90s to the

21st century, I'm guessing, and I'm sure the statsman will tell us, I, in the back of my mind, envisaged that in the last 20 years, England's debutante's done pretty well. I think it's the culture that's been created, and the language that is now used for debutants

is just go out and play, enjoy it. It's still the same game. Well, whereas, before that, I think there was a little bit of intimidation of it's a massive step or get ready it's a bit quicker and it is in a way

but it isn't in another way what was a score when he went in well I funny thing I always remember NASA and look just have a look at the senior pros

just just you know AF you know Bouch was there Stu was there myself just what's the way that we prepare well I was in inside the first few balls

we were two for two and I was at the non-strikers then before I'd face the ball I think Stew had got out I think Butch had got out and Chris Adams walked in at number six and he said oh what's it doing

I said, I haven't faced a ball yet. Two for four. So in a funny way, and Cookie will talk about, you know, flying all the way around the world and all the pressure's off

and you sneak under the radar. At two for four, it's probably the best time to bat as a young batter because you cannot do any worse. You've got all the four seniors sat in the dress room, 0-1, 0-1.

I think it was around that. I can't have many more. And then there's me, Chris Adams and Freddie Flintoff who had a free... I think me and Freddie put on a few. Might put on 50. and I always remember

I think I'm at 34 Freddie might have got 37 something like that it was like the saviors of English cricket and we got 30 that's how bad it was in those days but yeah

two for four before I faced a ball you bring rustling in just a minute what do you want to say this thing when Bourney said like it is the same game 100% right the only thing I remember is that in the whole first test

and I just kept looking down on my shirt I could not believe I was wearing the three lines and I suppose it is the same game except you're wearing a totally different shirt which you're really proud to do and then that just brings everything else too but if you can park all that stuff

if you can put that to one side and just concentrate on your job and don't try and be someone you're not makes such a big difference. Did you find I found that it was so much the ball came down a little bit quicker and you're facing the name Alan Donald Sean Pollock

so you've got a superstar running into you which in kind of cricket you know in the 90s we had Alan Donald so I'd faced Alan Donald in county cricket you know all the overseas pros were pretty much quick bowlers but I found the game slow you know test match cricket the tempo of it was so much slower you know the over rate was just a little bit slower there was more gaps you know in county cricket I always remember you know head in any particularly you generally always had you know stump to stump generally an extra cover on the couch even from the first few overs whereas I was taking guard I could just see all these

I thought, well, they've got all the gaps. There's loads of gaps everywhere. And I just felt the game was played, you know, a lot of slower. You know, you get to drinks and you have a nice brew and you go again. If only captains would get on with it a bit. Russell, what about your debut? My debut was a surprised occasion for me because I had had a couple of good first-class seasons,

scored 1,000-plus runs. But Sri Lanka had just won the World Cup, 1996. We had a very strong batting. lineup. And in 1997, Pakistan were to a Sri Lanka, and I had just been named in the squad for the warm-up match. But not to play as the 12th man. You show up on that day and you're assigned opener, he just pops up and says he's got a injury on his finger. That was Chamin the Mendez. Then they looked for

another opener who was not at the ground, Chandik Haathur Singh, who's coach of Bangladesh at the moment, and they couldn't locate him. So here I was. In the squad, in you go, Vasim Vakar, they had Momad Zaid. At that stage, they termed him super quick. So you played because they couldn't... Because the warm-up man. This is the warm-up game.

Right. I was caught off a no-ball. But you played the warm-up game because they couldn't find someone. Find two others. One chickened out. And they couldn't find the other. But I was there at the ground because I was 12th man anyway. You weren't watching.

You weren't watching. You were meant to me that. Yeah. Yeah. Carry the drinks. Well, here I got a chance. Caught off a no ball, I was nine. By tea time, I had ended up on 141.

Can you remember the bowler who was stabbed? Momad Zaid. Right. Yeah. And because of injuries, he couldn't play a lot for Pakistan, but he was one of those who was very, very quick in those days. Two days later was the test match. There was a practice session where Roshan Mahanama got his toe smashed.

There was a 141. They needed an opener. That was my test debut. Two days later, a couple of 20s. And it was a feeling where it was nothing to lose. It came out of nowhere because it just wasn't there. Sri Lanka's batting lineup was so strong in that period. The next tour that Sri Lanka went on was here to England.

It was a long-ish tour, the test match that was played out here. The only test in October, 1998. 1998 and after that series I ended up being the spare batsman in the tournament in the team till about 1999-2000 where you started playing but yeah it just popped up just going back to Warnie because I remember as youngsters were you earmark to play for England my first tour out of this out of Sri Lanka was to England and under 19 tour in 1992 and our very first game, but at Wellington College not too far away. Sri Lanka

under 19 played England under 19. Worn open with Tuscotic. Did he create a good impression on you then? Did I get any? I think you've got some but never smiled, wasn't friendly.

Yeah, it's grumpy. You see, it's better now. Russell, did you feel ready to play? I mean, in a stranger, you all had similar experiences. They were kind of free hits. a bit, a little bit anyway. Yeah, a couple of years seasons prior to that, I was really ready because I was topping the run charts

and you felt really good. But this particular season, this particular year, 1997, I had dipped a bit, maybe a bit of disappointment in not seeing a direction. It could have been for various reasons. Not many runs, but still when that opportunity came, it just felt really good. It gave me a sense of,

everything to gain, nothing to lose, and you go and play your game. And it just was another game of cricket. That's how it felt for me at that stage. But from there on, the expectations and what comes around it changes how you feel, changes how you think, and it's very important you react in the right manner. How old were you when you made you debut? 23. So you were 23.

What were you, Michael? Do you remember? I think I was around. 24. Can you say 24? 21. You were 21, I think. Yeah, I reckon I was 24.

I think I was 24, 25. I mean, I reckon, I think your test match, clearly, you've done something right to get there. I mean, some will say that Joshua's been thrown in there from nowhere, which I don't mind. I think sometimes you can just get thrown in there, and with this culture and this environment, you know, you can be absolutely fine.

I actually felt the hardest, but the first few test matches, clearly you're just getting used to things and there's pressure, and you're just desperate to try and stay in the side. it's when you get to around 15-20 test matches and people have seen you and they start analysing what you do and how you play and you may have played a couple of iffy shots

and the media have potentially criticised you and questioned one or two aspects of your game I felt that was the hardest time when you'd kind of had a little bit of them I'd got 100 against Pakistan after I don't know 8 or 9 or maybe 10 games and then suddenly I went a few games without 100 and I've got out played a couple of iffy shots

and that ball nipping back was whack me on the pad or going through the gate I'm going on this is not good my technique's not kind of standing up all the time I found that the challenge the challenge when I'd played a bit and people had seen a little bit more of me it's the second coming that really

makes you who you are or a legend of the game because as you walk in when you guys said when you debut it's a little easier you sometimes get the feeling of everything to gain but then you are bound to have a dip You are bound to be criticised and then the expectations of everyone on your shoulders.

That's what I meant by reacting to that is what takes you forward or makes you a proper cricket. You see a lot of players pop in, pop out and gone. But those who are able to write those disappointments or dips are the ones who are the great ones. What about the support from your teammates? I mean, do you get a lot of that as a debutante? I'm sure there's a lot of back-slapping year,

well-known congratulations. But, I mean, cricket is a funny game, isn't it? Because you're kind of competing against other people in your own team sometimes, aren't you? You think, well, actually, if he fails, I might get a longer run or whatever sometimes. What about that aspect of it? Well, for me, it was all about proving that I was good enough to be in that dressing room. That was, you know, I wasn't too fuss about what the other teammates were doing to me. I was just, I just wanted to earn the respect and felt I belong there.

Because you get given a debut and I don't, like, everyone's like, you know, we're all looking at Josh Hull tomorrow or whenever he bowls and go, what's this kid like is he actually any good is their potential and until for me as a player I wanted to feel like the guys opposite me and when the team I was walking into was after 2005 they were on a big pedestal for me because obviously I was young and it was great serious

I just want to prove that I can bang to those guys and getting 100 the first time made a big difference the second hunt actually my 80 lords in the third test match was the one I was like Yeah, I mean, obviously, I won to the 100, but then I thought, yeah, actually, it's not that I've earned the respect, but I think they think I can play. And as soon as you've done that, then you can start to be a little bit more settled in the environment because you feel as if you belong in.

The environment's important, you know, but there's only so much, and you can have a comfort blanket of everyone's, you know, slapping you on your backside and telling you how great you are, but fundamentally it comes down to you. You know, it's that inner, that inner chat that you have with yourself. So I as a captain would always try and make any new player feel really welcome. But fundamentally, I think it helps in some way, but fundamentally it comes down to the individual of finding that belief inside themselves, of that trust of being able to cope with the pressure.

And it is about proving to players to support us to the opposition that you can stand at that level. And that just comes down to you. That's why cricket is such an amazing game because there's only you. you know there's only one person can face the ball that's you there's only one person that can deliver the ball that's you and there's only one person I guess you can have help with catches these days

because they flick them all over the place but that's why it's a great sport it has this team kind of protection and this team support but fundamentally when you go out there there's only you that can deliver the skill no one else can help you that's very true because it comes down to how you feel

and what you want to achieve playing first class cricket with a lot of the greats. I played at the nondescripts cricket club. At that stage, it was Arvinda, Hashanthil Karatna, who were the big boys. So trying to compete with them, trying to get your performances, to make yourself feel good

was what the motivation was. Because you're seated at home, dreaming of trying to be out there, and then here comes an opportunity initially at first-class cricket and then beyond. there is a bit of a push within you I reckon if that's not there you're not going anywhere

were there players who you as captain actually just looking from a different perspective captain he thought that lad's struggling he's not going to make it I'm not necessarily asking to name names but I mean I've got a great example of

of two really where I mean like Simon Kerrigan here in a test match against Australia he'd been like the leading kind of left-arm spinner for a little bit in county cricket and done well and then so we picked him

and then he played in an England Lions game against Australia at Northampton and Shane Watson destroyed him and I knew it happened and we played three spinners I think Wokesy was batting at six so we had a you know like you have three seamers sorry two spinners

I was like God it would love not to bowl Kerrigan at Watson to start with but it got to the stage that A. I wanted to get him in the game we needed to bowl him and we picked him because we thought he was good enough and unfortunately and you know Simon probably has a maybe has a totally different you know feel of it and his side of the story but you know like unfortunately I had to bowl him there felt like I had to bow in there anyway and I guess who guess who's first ball he bowled he was Shane Watson I think his first over went for loads and it and he never recovered

covered from it so um i didn't see that coming when i faced him a year before uh for lancashire against essex and i said to jimmy court he's got something about him he's a proper game situation goes yeah i've never seen a young bowler come and set his own fields you know demand the captain that i need this field i need this this player's going to do that he really thought out thinks the batsmen do you know what i got from what jimmy i trust as well telling me that then i see him a year later or however long was and yeah he can he can bowl and then it didn't go very well so obviously i've got to take a bit of the blame that the environment wasn't good enough for for him or or or whatnot to go out and play so another one

and zari as well from saffaransari from from suri who went to bangadish in india you know one of those you know third spinners bat a bit and never you know the environment debut and ever, never got him comfortable in playing for England. So, as I was captain, you have to take a bit of the responsibility for that. Yeah, I mean, I'm trying to think. I don't think I've ever played with a player and thought, oh, you've got no chance. I've played with players that I thought,

oh, you might struggle in certain conditions, but I don't remember how many players in my time as captain played only a half, handful of games. Quite a group. There are some, but I don't remember thinking, oh, they're not coping with the pressure or it's not quite right for them.

It's just, they weren't picked because there was others available and, you know, that's, the key as a captain is just making sure that that player that you bring in just gets everything that they require to deliver what they've done to get in the side. And I guess the challenge for

England will be with Josh is that, you know, what he's done to get into the side is not necessarily numbers in county cricket it's more in practice now they saw him last week they pick him for the test squad and I reckon inside the first few balls in the nets they've all gone oh hello

got someone that can potentially play straight away and you know you look at Matthew Potts he's done absolutely enough he bowed beautifully at Lords and he misses this week in these conditions which you would say are absolutely perfect for Matthew Potts but he's going to have seen something Joshel in practice his numbers in

county cricket, don't warrant him a place in the England cricket team, but this management, this group, this culture that they've created is completely different to anything this cricket has ever done. And the fact that they've sent him in early, you know, young kid, 19, 20 years of age,

21, I mean, they shouldn't have any fear, really. They shouldn't... I guess when you get picked 25, 20, you've had a bit of fear because you've had a few failures. This guy's not had any real failures in his life. He's just got everything in front of him and you know, with this environment and this environment And this culture is, you know, there's been good cultures in the past.

But I think this is as good as any that I've ever seen with English cricket. And they look after the players so well. There aren't many one-test wonders anymore, one-test failures anymore in English cricket. Your one-test wonders, my main win, back to Scott Bortwick. How many tests did he play? Scott Borthwick played in. Mason Crane. Bore Dranking.

Because I remember, I live in Sydney. They are only, all the you. I got another one as well. That's probably more. And I coached, helped coaching in a private school there. One day when I went in Botwick was there helping coaching as well. He was playing great cricket. And we just got talking and he said his plans were to try and make.

The Lions Tour to Sri Lanka, which was due January, February. This was around November that year. And a month later, he played a test match from nowhere. How many one test caps did I give out? That's not where Zolps was going with this. I'll give him a bit of time. Martin Saggers, did he play more than one game? I think he played more than one.

I think I had four. I said, Scott Borthwick. Oh, you'll give you to him. Crane. Yeah? Mason Crane. Boyd. Boyd Rankin.

I think I've got one more as well. The last one test one day, here's a question. Who is the last one test one day? Oh, I did this the other day. For England. I'll leave our listen just to think about that for a moment before I give you the answer. Bracey? No, did he play two?

No, he played two. He played two. Just go back to the last time. of Pakistan. He walked out of the game injured. Liam Livingston. What about Parkey? He's a one test one day. Yeah, he was

well he was a half test. Yeah, half test. A half test one test. He wasn't picked in the original team. He was a ace Jack Leach who got concussed fielding early on. That's right. I mean, I'm talking about the environment here, sort of excluding Livingston because he didn't actually bowl in that game.

They picked eight debbies and bowlers since Stokes and McCullum took over. I'm not Counting Parkinson, because they didn't pick him. Nine. Okay, but nine. Anyway, those eight that they've selected for the games. Between them on debut, 52 wickets at 22. Five of them have taken a fifer.

Atkinson took seven and five in his case. Potts, one of the exceptions, took four and three on his debut, including Kane Williamson twice. That was against New Zealand in that first basketball test. Sherwood Bashir had a three-for on debut and fifers in the next three tests that he bowled in. The only Basbal debutant bowler

who didn't thrive with the ball was Jamie Overton and he made 97 with the bat. So there's been an extraordinary run particularly with the ball to put that in context. I was quite playing around

with spreadsheets in between tests as I like to do over the sort of previous debutants for England looking at the previous sort of 16 bowling picked collectively averaged 36 on debut.

So it's been an extraordinarily run of getting players to succeed straight away. And you talked about the environment when you came in, Michael, central contracts came in pretty much at exactly that time. Yeah, 2000. And so since 2000, looking at England, top seven batters, purely in their debut games, are collectively average 36.

In the 80s, 90s, and they were churning through players in incredible rate, the average score for an England, debutant batting in the top seven was 18 so I mean clearly that that you must have helped others a string of players he did really well in the 2000s Strauss had century on a century in 80 on debut before being run out by NASA Hussein so yeah it was something that I mean in the 80s and 90s Graham thought was the only England debut to make a to make a century on on debut so it's something that changed with batting when central contracts came in and

this particular regime has managed to get incredible things out of bowlers, often without much of a first class record. So looking at Josh Hull and where he stands in the least experienced players before test debut. And since the start of the 20th century, a few in the 1880s and 1890s who had never played first class cricket and played test matches in the games in when they used to play in South Africa and matches that retrospectively were awarded test data. So I think we can sort of ignore them. Ray and Ahmed had played three matches in first class cricket before his debut in Pakistan in 2022. Showa Bashir 6 before his debut in India earlier this year.

Josh Hull has played 10. And you've basically got to go back to what, Ian Peebles, 1927 had played 10 tests. So it's been, you know, almost... 10 first class matches before his first test. So they are, you know, it's sort of unprecedented really in, what, 100 years of English cricket. it to pick players with so little experience, but they've had this incredible track record of those players thriving instantly without anything in their sort of first-class record to suggest that would happen.

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So you must have that adrenaline playing your first test match, excitement, whatever, your desperation to do well. When is it you feel, after how many games do you feel settled in the team? Yeah, when you wake up in the morning, you don't feel that, I don't know, that churning in your stomach, you feel ready to go to work and play for your country. Well, I don't think that churning ever goes. But I really mentioned, for me it was my third test match. It was a toss-up selection between me and Ian Bell

when, because Trez came back at the beginning of that summer against Sri Lanka. So he made himself available, so he was going to play. And it was obviously between, and Belly got 100 in Pakistan in the tour before, and got a good 80 on that tour. So it was a selection call between him and me, and I got, picked ahead of him and then I remember that being really exciting actually I thought I got into a training during desperate to do I got that

80 odd and I thought do you know what they obviously backed me and I felt from there and I won't another 100 but I felt there then I felt settled in the environment of how I play so three games three games for me yeah like where I thought actually because I've got a big call from the selectors

that means that obviously means hierarchy actually born you captain I know he didn't captain but obviously still heavily involved Freddy was around as captain of the game game so and Duncan Fletcher there are three people you're getting back to head of ian bell who'd done pretty well you know you are i think that's that that was for me for me anyway yeah i would say um after my first hundred against Pakistan just uh so in which test number was that 10 11 10 11th 10 or 11 might be 11 i think once you get your first

hundred i mean i still got it at the first time of knocking um that that's when i felt oh yeah yeah I can be here for a while but I think there's always a little bit in the back of your mind that you know that if you have two or three games where you don't score a run or you're going to be back to square one so I never ever thought

oh I'm going to be on next winter's tour too far but I was in the middle of the summer and I'd played okay and there was two or three games to go I knew I was going to be going away in the winter whereas you know I didn't look too far ahead because fundamentally it's you know it's a tough game

and you're only ever you know a bad stroke, a dodgy LB. A finger injury or well? Yeah, a bit of misfortune and injury. Towards the back end, I was clearly just fighting a bit of a knee problem, but when I was completely, I never ever, if you said, was I 100% comfortable. The only time I was 100% comfortable was when I was captain

and captained in after about 20 test matches. Just very quick, well, we were only ever on one-year deals. So, Vaughney's right, like, you had to score runs pretty quickly in that year if you wanted another central contract. that's basically you were never given that security of you know what we've got you a one year but you know that's what's around but you're going to be playing for three or four years no one ever spoke about three or four years time it was like you russell because you you had a sort of like a 40-odd test career and a 180 one-day international so you're much more sort of consolidated in the one-day

side than perhaps the test match did you do you have those ups and downs did you feel settled at any point you thought was it a real struggle at times well till about 2000 i was the spare batsman But I was very comfortable because whenever on tour you get a warm-up game and I was able to get 100 all the time. Even in England, it was a 200 that I made in that spare game against Somerset. But in 2000, there was a clean-out. All the seniors, they cleared out. Sanad Jayasuri was made captain and it was all the younger guys pushed in.

From that moment on, it was just us. And it was the same co-players who featured in the white ball format and we were having a great run in performances. So that little period, we just felt. felt strong. As a unit, we knew who was going to be there, and personally as well, it was strong. But come 2003-4, the dips started coming in and then the doubts created. My game was pretty different too. When you compare the Jayvardanas, Sangha-Karas or Jayasuri, it was not totally flared, just a couple of pokes to point, everything off the pads. So the theory was

that, you know, we need players who can hit it everywhere. even though I was making runs. So I started feeling the pressure come 2004 that they were looking elsewhere but couldn't go anywhere because the runs were there but there was a bit of pressure. What was that like to cope with? It was hard.

It was pretty hard with every day you're being tested. But that period between 2000 to 2003 we were just coasting as a team and personally but from there on you know, you get particular theories, coaches, managers, and you want to take certain directions. My style of play or how I looked didn't suit that.

That was a hard period leading away from 2004. I'm going to bring toughers in to tell his debut story. But Michael, I just pick up on Alistair's point there. He said every match I play for England. And what did you play, Alist, in the end? 161, right? 161 and most of them consecutively as well so you you missed your what would have been your third test match you played two and then you got ill in in in Mumbai but Michael did you did were you churning ever

till before every match yeah yeah really nervous yeah and and you know once the game started and we're into the contest and I kind of knew the conditions and you kind of within the first I reckon the first half of the first day you kind of know the way the game's going you can see I was nervous but I could relax but leading in that first morning I was always getting up early

there were some nights I didn't sleep you know just just desperate to do well worse as captain or as batter captain yeah I meant batter as well I mean that kind of

both aligned together it's there's nothing worse and when you're going through a run of low scores or not feeling right you do go to bed at night and you try

trying to work it out you know you're trying to work out in your mind what what's what's wrong why aren't i moving quite correctly and it's amazing to to get out of that i always found going so far back to the basics it's like underarm drills just like the most basic element of batting which you you could do when you were 10 that would get me back into form and then you get back into form you think well why do i just do those little basic drills all the time um so yeah night times you used to have a glass of wine or two you know it's not that it was the most professional thing but I think it relaxed me

maybe help me sleep a little bit better but there's so many nights where I'd toss and turn and just trying to work things out in your head and that's why it's a, the test match game is such a hard game you've got five days to play you've got seven days that you're there really two days of practice you've got what

six or seven sleeps if it goes right down to the wire and it is survival and some will say it's the survival of the maddest who's a you know mad enough to kind of really focus for such long periods of time and challenge themselves day and day out in practice and challenge yourself getting out there and facing the music um that's why it's such a great game just laughing you're saying about going going to bed and thinking about it the worst when you're out of form the worst thing is when you have a dream when you get a hundred that's the worst ever like literally just when you wake up

and you're still out of nick i know a hundred absolutely yeah you wake up you think you're hundred and you absolutely destroyed and you realize you're averaging five whatever you are Oh, there's nothing worse. It's about the eggs in the morning. It doesn't taste well when you're out of Nick. No. Everything's wrong. Go on, Tupper's.

Your debut. Hello, Thomas. Hello. At my debut, I don't know whether they'd actually allow it now. I think it might be sort of like called bullying or something. Mine was at the MCG, boxing day test match. Yeah. Probably, I don't know, probably a couple down.

And then go and have a little go on that one. You know what I mean? So I was sort of staggered out there. Who did you replace? Oh, God, I don't know. Eddie Hemmings, perhaps, or something, I don't know. I'm sure that was my debut. Was it?

No, I'm sure. Is it, Andy? Well, everyone's debut is memorable. Except from, for Tupper's. No, I think it was. It was the MTC 1990, the second test of that tour. There you go. Eddie Hemings was on that tour, as awesome.

Yes, I'll probably got rid of Eddie. Let's give you the scores in the game. England, 352. I haven't ended the cat yet. 352, and Australia, 306. You've got a first innings, leave. Did the cat get any runs? I'll tell you what I got.

Come to that in a moment. England 150 and Australia, 197 for two. I'll tell you what I got. I'll tell you what I got. I got an... It's called an Audi, which is Nortfer and Nortford and Nortfurt, not out and Nort out. Which is four zeroes.

And I've got a lovely bat from all the boys, and it's probably one of the only things that I've caught, kept, you know, with them all sort of like taking the Mickey out of it. But thankfully, and I had as well, I had. That is the test match when Peter McConnell I used to have a little

sort of tick when I bowled you know like sort of three or four balls or four balls how many left in the overrump like that and after about and then Gucci

threw me this ball talking about you know readers and and you know and dukes and what have you he threw me this ball which didn't have a

which only had dots around it it had no stitch between the dot all the quarter seam had sort of like come apart and everything and Gucci's gone right, go on and then have a bowl like that, 100,000 or whatever, like that,

and I've gone, oh, crakey, what am I going to do with that? You know what I mean? And then I ran up, and I don't really remember the first two deliveries. I don't really remember the first two deliveries. It was to Dean Jones, I think. And then the third delivery, he came running down the pitch and hit it straight back at me, and it hit me right on the ankle point, inside ankle point.

And I've gone, oh, my God, I didn't even sort of go down to it. to it. I was squealing like that and it sort of woke me up. And then I kind of bowled all right. But then also, that was then the thing as you said, so I had this tick, how many balls left in the over, how many bowls left in the over? And on about my third over, I said to, I think it was Peter McConnell, how many balls left in the over? And he said, count them yourself, your pommie. Dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot. To which I've gone, oh, okay. Nasty. That's a bit nasty. Like that. And then Gucci came running over and said,

to be fair graham he supported me to the hill he said he said you can't talk to my players like that i'm afraid and now McConnell's gone it's not going to do what i bloody want me you know what i mean so they had a little bit of a ding-dong and all the sort of scribes up the top all said toughnall tantrum in the morning oh toughnall this tough and all that when really the bloke it was the bloke who's having to go out me i was having a chuckle with phil the day just looking his test career and i said you know what phil in the 90s I reckon you went on every tour. You should know what I think I did?

He's played 42 test matches, haven't you? Yeah. 42 test. I reckon he toured in the 90s. So I just remember... Eight or nine times. English cricket in the 90s. Winter tours.

West Indies. Australia. India. And Phil Tufton was on every single one. And at the end of the 90s, 99, my first tour, guess who's on it? Phil. I reckon you went on every tour. And it's funny he said about churning and everything.

When you used to stay, with the opposition in the same hotel. You know what I mean? You're talking about churning and what have you. You know, you'd sit there and watch Kirkley Ambrose, Courtney Walsh, you know, come down for breakfast, you know, I've got a bit of fruit and sort of I'm trying to sort of get

this sort of scrambled egg down, you know what I mean, or something like that. Curtley and Courtney, they're just going around going, I might have a bit of that, you know, have a bit of that, bit of that, bit of that. And I just looked at them and sort of said, well, they look, they don't look like they're concerned at all. But it is.

about their performance. I'm sure they probably were, and it's the same with the Aussies. We stayed in the Aussies, you know what I mean? I think Adam Gilchrist was wandering around, just going,

oh, I think I might have another bit of, I think I might have another sausage. Oh, oh, those ash browns. I'll have two of those assbrowns, you know what I mean? Sat down, big smiling his face, you know what I mean? And sort of I was sort of sitting there going,

no, no. But that's why I went, to the England players yesterday, three o'clock, where were they were playing golf? He went to a Centurion Golf Club, played some golf. And I reckon in the 90s,

if you were said, you're going to go and play golf the day before a 10th. There's no way you would have been allowed. You'd have been sent home. You're not taking the game. You can completely understand why they're doing it. They're doing it. So, as Phil mentioned, that relaxed attitude that you require

to really just enjoy this moment. And that's what Baz McCullum's brought in. He just wants the players to enjoy playing for England. And I think the golf, there's a bit of psychology around that. He's just making sure that they're enjoying the time, and switching off from the churn of what this brings. rings. Did you enjoy playing for England tougher? I did at the beginning.

Yeah. Yeah, I really did at the beginning. I think I've got 50 wickets quite sharpish. You know what I mean? It's probably about, I don't know, six games or something, I'm not sure. No idea. But quite sharpish and sort of enjoyed it. Fifty and six.

That's going to be the quickest. Oh, I don't know, seven games. I said, hold on, hold on, God, I don't know, 50 in... 15 games. Oh, 50. But four Fife's in your first seven tests. Yeah.

That came up in a snap recently. Yeah, I don't know. I can't, listen, I'll be totally honest with you. I can't remember them. I'm sorry, I'm floundering here. But it was quite quick. It was quite quick. Very quick.

Yeah. Well, I just, I talk about your debut, you didn't get a wicket. He bowled a lot of overs. He got 55 games. You didn't get one of his first. Life is the highlights. It took about 70 odd overs to get your first test. Yes, it did.

Test wicket. Yes. Are you at that point doubting yourself? Absolutely. I can go back to Peter McConnell on that because you can ask Jack Russell because I had David Boone cutting and this was about in the fourth over like that after he said, count it myself, you're so and so, so and so. And then I had David Boone cutting.

to which there was this massive snick, like that, and Jack's just caught it, and we've just gone, yes, like that. And then I've looked round, and we've gone, how's that? How's that? And he gave me the biggest smile of his life, and he went, not out. And I went, oh, oh, like that, like that. And then you're right, and then it became a little bit of a thing.

I kept sort of like, I went to bed after that test match and then played Sydney. What time? Which, thankfully, then I got to. which thankfully then I got a five ferrat but I hadn't got a few and I just kept having these sort of like thoughts of sort of like you know on my headstone you know for all tough nor the only man to play test cricket never to have got a wicket and so these things then started getting him and he started getting very sort of

stressed about sort of like decisions and things like that and then I finally got a wicket which was a low full toss to Greg Matthews which he came down the wicket and hit straight down Eddie Emin's throat at Long On and then I've sort of gone and that took me a while but then I just thought right well that that's that first one done and then went on to get a five for and it all of a sudden became sort of just me instead of me trying to be something else do you know what I'm trying to say you're relaxed into your own thing totally yeah yeah yeah yeah I actually took out a will

in the West Indies before I went because it was um It became a very sort of nerve-wracking affair. You took out of a while because of the quick bowl and you were about to face? Yes, I did. Absolutely. Absolutely, I did because it was, the sort of the pressure and the sort of tension of it all, you know, and people would laugh and joke, you know what I mean, all feel you've got your chest pad on.

I go, I've got a chest pad on, you know what I mean? And you'd go out there and these currently ambush called Alan, Donald, Sean Pollock, Wazimack our Unis, you know, I would physically, you know, be, you know, great word churning. You'd be churning waiting to go out to bed. Absolutely. Not necessarily just for the sort of, you know, for the situation of the game. But actually, because, you know, you were very apprehensive about it.

When you were waiting to face, you know, a quick, and there was many. What's going through your mind as you wait for that moment? I couldn't look. I couldn't look. I just sort of usually just sort of like, because I can come on, someone come and get me. I'll be in the physio's room, under the physio's bed. Did you have any tactics against me?

No, didn't have any. No one told me any tactics. No one told me anything. Did you have a bat and a net? I had two nets for England. Two, honestly? Yes. And I walked out of both of us.

You had two nets for England? Yes, two nets. Yes, two nets. One last did one ball. Where was that? That was at, in South Africa, Johanersburg. Where's that? Centurion.

No, not said, Wanderers. Wanderers. Is that on my talk? Duncan Furley. Yes. Duncan Furley. Duncan Fletcher grabbed hold of me and said, right, you're coming around for a net, you know what I mean? And the only one who was free, because all the other guys were sort of playing and stuff like that, was Alex Tudor.

And, you know, choose. And I think he was sort of like, he would just. missed the game or something like that so he was desperate he was desperate to sort of like get back into the side and there were no sight screens at um wherever it is joe annesburg the one was up on the top of that hill yes no sight screens no nothing so i've sort of reluctantly got my pads on like that chude has come and i've said to choose i've said choose whatever you do pitch it up pitch of you like that so chus has come running and he's bolded me this sort of like amazing Yorker

which I didn't even see because there was no sight screens just this sort of like copse of trees on the hill bang, poles everywhere and I said listen I can't see I'm not facing this you know what I mean I might be playing the next test match

might get one on the hand and break the finger like that stormed out the net Duncan Fletcher's running after me going get back here get back here get back here get back here I'm not having a bad I'm not doing it I'm not doing it's like a penny hills

and then the other time the other time that was one of your England that was the other one Yeah, well, that was about 10 years later. The first time was on my first tour with Mickey Stewart, and it was in Perth, and the Perth Nets were rapid. The old Perth Nets were rapid, really rapid like that.

And so it's come around to my time. But then all our guys had sort of gone off, and Mickey Stewart had organized net bowlers from Australian first grade cricket. Oh, very nice. Well, there you go. All were the great deal of incentive to knock over a pomp. Absolutely. With all the school kids, by the net, it's abusing you.

Absolutely. And then the two guys who we'd got were these two brothers from, I don't know, Wests or Norths or something like that. They both turned up on Harley Davidson's, right? They had handlebar of moustaches, sort of like leather waistcoats, you know what I mean, like that, got changed into their gear and came in, and the first three balls, one nearly knocked me head off, I got one on my ribs like that

and the other one in front of my face with the hands and I could have been playing the next day so I walked out of that next one. Yes, sorry. Throwdowns, any throw downs? A few underarms? I didn't see the point. You just remind me

so my first tour so it's fair to say, Phil I'm not giving away any secrets. Your relationship with Duncan Fletcher was, it wasn't at its finest and we get to the last test match at Centaur and he's not playing. and Duncan used to have this six-ball fielding drill

Cones and used to have to have to run and he used to make your dive and you have to catch the ball and you have to fling it back to him and it was basically shuttles with a bit of catching and skill of fielding yeah fitness fielding

we were all sick doing it it was like a fitness anyway it was lunch time and we were all sat there and we were up sat there and just having our chicken or whatever and we saw Fletcher taking Tuftanil out onto the outfit

went oh there's something good for so I know the cat is smart and he realized that the coach only took six balls out within a minute or so the cat's down diving he starts all right down and then he gets a bit so he starts

winging these balls miles over Fletches so the field injure stops Fletcher's storming off he's storming up I thought that was quite That was a horrible field injury

and he was so good at it You'd get the first couple and then the third one you'd go and it would just land in front of it you've got to pick yourself up and also why I didn't get on with Fletch really was that

the grass is different over there it's that sort of spiky grass and I can get very bad hay fever and in Perth that very sort of harsh cooch grass or something and if you roll around in it if you roll around in it it used to bring me out in sort of hives

you know what I mean I used to get etchy and all my eyes and very very sensitive skin you know what i mean and so you know i i sort of try to avoid it a little bit you know what i mean and then i was playing at the r a f ground for middlesex and we'd just come back from the tour and and i'm sitting there like that i got a bacon sandwich on and perhaps a fag like that watching i was watching this morning because middle sex twos were were batting like that so i'm upstairs on this sofa like that all of a sudden duncan Fletcher walked in

because he surprised us surprised us so he's opened the door to which I sort of he didn't tell me he was coming down to sort of like you know tell me how I'd gone

in the tour like that and he's gone so I've put the bag out quickly like that and put the bacon roll down and sort of picked up some yoghut or something

and he's sort of come in and he sat down and everything and he said tough as you know he didn't do too bad and you know he didn't do too bad you know perhaps need

some more nets you know I mean bold all right but he said you know you've got to do some more fielding and I said and I meant seriously

I said well Duncan I said it's interesting you say that because I think I'm allergic to fielding practice and he looked to me and he just went to me and he just walked out of the door but I sort of was you know what I was horribly and that was it that was it never spoke to me again

Phil the whole tour I remember just coming back every night and the cat would just be sat there with a pint of lager and a bowl of nuts I never saw him eat anything but a bowl of nuts they were great days though but it was a change then that was the change you know what I mean you must remember

as you say I'd started quite a long time before that where everyone just sat in the bar and had a pint of lager marvellous just on that thing about feeling settled in a teen was there a point when you didn't you know you weren't anxious you weren't churning or throughout your test career

or Michael was talking about his sort of tension and cookies saying every game was a tense affair. Well, well, the strange thing about that is that when I got, I think I bowed out New Zealand in that last session and got, I don't know, 10 for or something, 11 for something, I can't even remember. Just check that and it. You got a three for.

Two for 160, yeah. Like that. Which was amazing and I felt great and everything like that. But then that then almost has its own pressures in it as well because I thought, oh well, you know, and it was a flat pitch. It was a flat pitch at Christchurch. And so the next then test, I came on to bowl and sort of didn't get many, you know,

and got perhaps knocked about a little bit like that. And I've sort of gone, well, what's gone wrong? You know, I just bowed them out the day before, or the game before. Do you know what I mean? Bowled beautifully. And I feel like I'm bowling beautifully now. But they're, you know, 150 for one. And I can't get anyone out.

So all of a sudden you then start going, what am I doing differently? And so there's all these little things that even sometimes then with success, it almost then brings an added pressure because you've got to keep trying to do that. Mental games. Apparently you were telling the truth in that. 11 in the match, 7 for 47 in the second in the game.

There you go. Very good, Phil. Yeah, it's very easy, isn't it, for people to just sit on the sidelines and watch. Vaughn, he's got three noughts or something like that, used to us, getting about the team, but there's a human being in there. You're going through so much as players. I think the batters have it harder than the bowlers.

I really do. Bowling, to be fair, you know. I've got a few wickets. Why just, I don't know. Some bloke's missing it, you know what I mean? You haven't bowled everyone that's pitched, turned, and sort of turned and bounced and what have you. And, you know, a batter then has to face that delivery.

It's like a new day, every single delivery. It's like a new day, you know what I mean? At least when you're bowling, you know, you just sort of bowl it, you know, and you sort of go through your variations and what have you. But you then sort of, and I suppose as a batter, you can then get into your innings, like you get into your spell.

But in essence, the next ball that the bowler bowls to are batter, is like a whole new ball. It's like a whole new day again. Must have been incredibly difficult. That's why I didn't have any nets. Is that how you saw it, Elsa? I just think we're so careful.

sitting up here it looks such an easy game and I was this is like the first year I've commentated without playing and last year I always you know

last few years I've always gone back to planes when you're netting tough as netting actually how quick the ball is I'm not saying it's impossibly quick but it is quick it does nip it

even on TV and it doesn't look like nips at all actually it nips a lot more than you think it does swing and it is a and you forget you sit here Galah

having a great time and you go out and bat it's so you know you can't replicate that feeling you get walking out I love my time

playing for I turn every single day it was nerve wracking that's what you live for that's what we were bred to do live for

but really careful that I forget actually how hard central contracts would one biggest thing yeah I think without any question

but I also do think that England now pick players and attitudes that aren't necessarily the churning type

that over thinking you look at something Keaton Jennings. You know, his numbers speak for themselves. In my opinion, he should have opened in the series. But they didn't go with him because maybe they feel that he does overcomplicate the game. And the kind of characters that England pick are those types of characters, I think

Ben Duckettler, but in that dress room, he's probably pulled out a PlayStation or had a game of cards, had a laugh. And I think England are picking those style of cricketers now. That, you know, I think there's a lot to be said that you need the real, you know, discipline players as well. But I do think they have a group that seem to, whether it's a lot. the external portrayer of what they're trying to deliver, I'm not too sure, but they seem so relaxed.

They seem so chilled in the morning. They have a game of football. They play golf. They have a bit of fun earlier in the week. They are really in a culture and an experience, which is all about the enjoyment. Look at Baz McCullum's comments about getting the whiteball job and about Josh Butler.

It's about, I'm going to make sure that his last few years he's going to enjoy. You hear the word enjoyment more now than in any other era, and there's a reason behind that. Yeah. Interesting, though, I do players talk about the difficulties they're facing. You know, there might be sort of an external look, but there's that internal feeling. I mean, you go back to that 2019 World Cup match before England played against India, where they had that meeting and everyone's, Ben Stokes, saying, yeah, I'm actually really scared.

We're going to mess this up. You know, and other players listening to that thought, you know, they were really grateful for his honesty there in saying that, because that's kind of how I've been as well. You know, we played so well for three, four years. And we got to the stage and suddenly, oh, we don't. win this game. It's all for nothing. Simon, let's be honest, in a year's time, this is going to be kind of a judgment time for this team.

This series and the West Indian series that we saw really in the summer, it's not going to be the judgment of this team. It's India at home, Australia way. I remember in 2005 actually, we played the Australians in a one-day series, and I always remember it. We're at Headingley, and Triscothic got up in the team room.

And it was in the dress room, we're just discussing the next day's play, and he just stuck his hand and said, I've got a problem with McGraw. It's the first time I'd ever heard an England play, stick his hand up in front of the whole group all the management who's that

just got to be like he just said lads I've just got to be denous I've got a real problem with Glenn McGrath it's a real issue and everyone there was a chuckle

you know to start with because you know fuck come on and then everyone went okay how can we help and he said well I just don't know

quite how to play him and there was one or two that said why don't you just leave a few you know why don't you just go out of you why don't you bat out your crease why aren't you bat on off stumb just try and give him

some visual slightly different. Not saying the conversations made him go and get runs the next day, but the next day he went out there. And what happened was the whole team were like together on the balcony, watching every ball that he faced McGraw. And every time he hit in foot, go on, Trez. It was like a whole collective getting behind someone that had openly just said, I have a real issue facing this bowler. I'd never ever heard it said before in a team room. Well, it was treated, if that would have been said, it would have been seriously treated as a sign of weakness. Well, by the way, I read picks. Phil, I think there was many others in the team. So have I. You're not the only one, but you're the only one that's been open enough to kind of put it into a public forum. Not public, but a team forum of debate.

Do that happen much in your time? Well, I was just thinking about the Mitchell Johnson in 2013. We had a bit of a meeting about it. And no, no, it was that, no one was honest enough to say they were scared. of facing him or wasn't or people might not be scared but that was a that was a really interesting like flower and I discussed where we're going to do it or not

because obviously it was a big issue the fact that we couldn't we weren't good enough to get through it but then you talk about it and actually none of the batterers actually we had a batters meeting about it and no I think I'm alright I'm thinking right and maybe they were alright just but it's it was an interesting thing you never found the

solution for it that was for that was a certain but again it was that was a case of almost bravada against facing someone a 93, 94 mile an hour bowler and actually if someone had stood up there and gone to Jesus I'm actually really struggling that was, you know... I'll guarantee cookie

if someone had had done that in the 90s they wouldn't have played the week after no they wouldn't they'd have been... Oh you're weak come on but there was still an element of that in 2013 still 100% I was like God I don't admit to our failure but that is a human nature

thing as well like and actually a lot of successful sports people are stubborn oh no actually no I'm fine You might not be fine, but I am fine, because for all the other psychology of sport and the psychology, there is only one person who you can go out and change it, and that's you. So you can have all the help you want, if the help doesn't hold your arm walking out to the middle. So I agree, they might be relaxed, but they're still, I don't care what anyone says, there's still anxiety in that changing room. It's just, it might be a way, like, it's like Graham Swan, actually.

He bluffed his way through his, like, with that exterior comedy joking, which is brilliant for our team, especially got a lot of. of introverts like himself you know Ian Bell, Trott you know just to name a few Strauss someone coming in

and giving it that you know the joy of you know laughing all the time that's how Swanee got through his anxiety without a shadow

with that you know the fear of him to bowl a side out in the fourth innings when you know

he would just laugh about it but deep down he knew he knew there was anxiety you wouldn't have thought it

by the way because he communicated that because you yeah we spoke about about but then there's different ways

to deal with it I know that there's anxiety in that danger room, maybe slightly less, but if there isn't, they've cured the human brain. But just on introverts, extroverts, I mean, I always, you know, in selection, and when you're particularly touring, now when you look to go to Australia, for instance, I think it's so important when you go and play really tough teams away that if you pick a full team, full squad and you've got so many introverts, in the back of your mind, you've got to think, well, wait a minute,

if it goes wrong at the first time of asking the first test you know if you're all introverted you know it's very very difficult to get players to come out you know without it naturally coming out and I think it's so important when you're picking squads that you do have just a few nutters in there that just

you know Darren Goff brilliant it always says something that I just make you you know laughing the most pressurized Matthew Hoggard was another Graham Swan it's so important when you're picking squads on probably in any series at home as well but particularly when you travel and you're overseas

and you just need someone to break that ice with a little bit of humour and they're the extroverts that bring that just that little bit of humour in the pressure situation Who are the extroverts

in this England team? I'm guessing I mean I don't know them all incredible I think someone like Ben Duckie's quite an extrovert or would say a few things

Harrybrook I think Harry's quite an amusing character at the right times Mark Wood without any question Wood is probably a goffy character

Catherine Siverbrunt, that kind of character that you just need those kind of energisers that just bring a little bit of, wait a minute, it's just a game of cricket. We know it's not. When it comes to the crunch of it, it's more than a game of cricket

when you play in Australia in the Ashes series or in a World Cup, but you need players in your group that just bring it back to, wait a minute, it's just a game of cricket, lads. And also coaches as well. You need an environment where it is when you're away for a long period of time,

if you do have a side full of introverts and there's nothing wrong with either introvert extra if you've got like we had a lot of introverts we had a couple of extra 30 coaches like Mark Saxby or people who would you know his job was to look after people and get them out of their rooms and stuff

when they're struggling so that that's man management stuff I love how we got on to man management when talking about debuts and stuff and whuffled along tough has just got another 50 wickets the time we've been on it just goes to show how the memory fan

I like the way your memory's faded in a positive Well, absolutely. Just on this, you know, clearly there's a lot of focus on Australia. They're always theirs. And those are the really big series for an England team. At what point as a player do you start to sort of get a bit keyed up for it? Are you talking in a couple of weeks before you leave England? Like when you get on the plane, this is it.

Or when you get through customs for the first time, and you're in Australia and you're here now. And we've got that build up to the first test. and you can sort of sense it. The build-up's quite always quite relaxed. Like the first, we have three games, I mean, generally quite low-key games, and there's a bit of interest in it.

When you arrive in Brisbane, in terms of when you arrive in Brisbane as a team, going to that first test for what I was a week away, that was to me in terms of like when this is getting serious now, because actually Australia is a great place to tour as a country. It's a brilliant touring country. for me it was when you the end of the summer here

and you kind of knew the Oval we sat here at the Oval yeah I'm going to Australia I'm on I know I'm on the tour that's when you kind of get excited because then you do start training hard because you want to be in a good physical side for it

yeah like when it really first three weeks of Australia tour is great because lots of activities the old game of cricket but get to Brisbane and yeah yeah similar I mean it depends why you tour I mean

I guess when you go to the subcontinent, you may do some work before you get there, you know, because of the spin element, sweeps and making sure you're aligned with a skill set that's going to be challenging when you get over to the lights of Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, India, Pakistan. But, yeah, I mean, you try not to think too much about it, or I didn't want to think too much before it happened. It was almost like you'd get a few days before the 10th, go, right, come on, I switch on. What did you think, Phil? well i found out i was going to australia on cfax age 340

that's when it that's when it came up like that so i went oh my god oh crikey i mean i'm actually going to australia no fantastic this is great and then you don't even know whether anyone really phoned me up oh no i think meda might have sent me a letter sort of saying oh meddala she's been around the english just explaining who she is

oh yeah she's the organises everything for all the players and she is as important as any player in the last 30 years. Oh no, they sent me this sort of embossed sort of like card, you know, with gold leaf on it. Here, Mr. Tufnell. Is you? Did you have to get any of that? No, but I reckon you would have been called up by the, were you MCC when you first?

Yes, yes, absolutely. I was invited by the MCC to tour Australia. All those tours in the 90s. Yeah, I mean, it looked like a, it looked like a really nice party invitation, you know what I mean? And it was. No. And then you sort of go, oh, great, great, great. And then you have a lot of time to think about it.

But then when I realised is when the chap sort of came around, knocked on your door and there was your case, and you opened up your case, and there was your blazer inside. The coffins. Yeah, yeah, and your jumper. I wanted it. And your cap. You never got one.

And then you thought to yourself, oh, Crocky, here we go. So how many England coffins were? You know, the old... The boxes, the old coffins. With your name on it. And you'd have your name and the tour. Yeah, absolutely. And that's with the A side as well in the 90s.

You got one for the A tour. They must have been so heavy. And then there was a big... Remember the last one? The massive red ones? Yeah, they were really heavy. And we were sponsored by a phone coming. All over, the big red ones.

They were heavy. Yeah, lucky them. You could land on your toe. Oh, your bat never got scratched, though, did it in those? They had a bit of foam inside. Yeah, it never got scratched. Obviously, the bags now, there's always day into the bags. Bats could get scratched.

So thanks very much to Alice to Michael. Russell and Andy for that. That's it for this episode of the TMS podcast. Make sure you subscribe on BBC Sound so you don't miss any content from TMS, including Jonathan Agnew's view from the boundary conversation with legendary commentator Clive Tilsley. England's White Ball series against Australia

starts on the 11th of September at the Utiliter Bowl in Southampton with coverage of the first T20 match starting at 615 Wednesday evening and we'll have commentary on all those England-Australia games. Thank you.