Test Match Special - Inside the Mind of an Ashes Captain

Episode Date: July 30, 2019

Michael Vaughan speaks to Sir Alastair Cook, Andrew Strauss, Allan Border and Ian Chappell about what it's like captaining in cricket's oldest rivalry. Andrew Strauss reveals how being insulted in a lift by a member of the Barmy Army fuelled his desire to win the Ashes in 2010-11, whilst for Allan Border it was being sledged by the Australian Prime Minister on TV.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. The Dakar Rally is the ultimate off-road challenge. Perfect for the ultimate defender. The high-performance Defender Octa, 626 horsepower twin turbo V8 engine and intelligent 6D dynamics air suspension. Learn more at landrover.ca. BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. podcast at the Ashes. Download and subscribe via the BBC Sounds app.

Hello and welcome to the Test Match special podcast. I'm Eleanor Aldroyd. With me is Michael Vaughn, and it's two days to go until the start of the Ashes. Tomorrow on this podcast, Jonathan Agnew will be at Edgburston ahead of the first test. We'll hear from Joe Root, as well as Australia Captain Tim Payne. But today we're going to take a closer look at just what it's like to Captain in the Ashes. There's test cricket and then there's Ashes cricket and they're two completely separate things But it's going to be caught and England have won the ashes

And Australia have regained the ashes At the earliest possible opportunity Marsh swings it high on the offside, Randall's underneath it this could be the ashes for England He's caught it, they've won It's the ultimate opposition It's the ultimate test match That doesn't get any better than that

It's Mitchell Joltson but takes the wicket that wins Australia, the ashes. It's the top of the tree. You are tested everything at your motor. The end of a mob was undefeated 149 by both of them. One of the great innings of test cricket. No, is it the ashes? Yes, England won the ashes.

You feel pressure like you'll never feel at any other time in your life. Warren at Strauss, Strauss. It's bold! Oh, bold by a beauty! If you do come out on the right side of it, it's the most satisfying thing you'll ever do. And England have won their first series in Australia for 24 years. Only three Englishmen have lifted the ashes urn in the last 32 years. We'll hear from them all.

Sir Alistair Cook, who won the ashes the last two times they were held in this country, in 2015 and 2013. Andrew Strauss, who won Down Under in 2011, as well as back home in 2009. And Michael Vaughn, who so famously lifted the urn at the Oval in 2005. but we'll also be hearing from two iconic Australian captains who won the ashes a total of five times between them. Well, Michael Vaughn is with me this evening. Michael, as a captain, what makes the ashes so different to any other series?

Well, it defines you as a person. You know, the history, you know, everything that you do when you're growing up to be a cricketer, it's generally Australia in the back of your mind. You know, it's your game, it's your delivery in terms of what you're trying to create around your team, everything that you are setting down for the future of your team when you take over is generally about, right, Australia. The first thing I thought about was in 2003 when NASA was saying walked into the dressing room at Edgebaston on the last day of the test match against South Africa and said, Michael, you're going to be the test captain, I've had enough. And I remember

that night, having dinner with Duncan Fletcher, I said, right, 2005. I didn't even think about the other series. I said, I want to be Australia. I need to have a team that's, you're got the right kind of game. We need the right kind of characters. And we possibly, over the course of two years, need to get rid of quite a few English legends. You know, players that have been playing for a number of years, but they've got too much baggage

and too many defeats against Australia to go into 2005 without any negativity. So straight away, we had a two-year plan of making sure that we arrived in 2005 with a fresh set of minds, a different style of play. a more aggressive start of play to try and catch Australia. They were so far ahead of everybody in World Cricket.

And we knew that the mindset was going to be crucial. So fundamentally, an Ashie's captain, at the end of your reign, you know, it doesn't really matter what you've done against other teams. People will always look, what did he do against Australia? And that's the same as a player. You know, it's not just about the captain. At the end of, you know, any English players or Australian players' career, the first thing you look at, how did they get on against the old enemy?

And that's why it means so much. Well, let's hear from the man who won the Ashes as captain in 2009, but also most memorably, became the first Englishman to lift the urn in Australia in 18 years in 2010-11, Andrew Strauss. There's Test cricket and then there's Ashes cricket and they're two completely separate things. The level of interest, pressure, scrutiny is like no other matches you play in. and as captain, you're the sort of centrepiece of that.

So you've got to keep the show on the road. You've got to avoid the, you know, the train going off the tracks, which so often does in an Asher series. And at the same time, you've got to do your job and perform out in the middle with the bat in hand or the ball. And so you feel pressure like you'll never feel at any other time in your life, I don't think. But that also means that if you do come out on the right side of it, it's the most satisfying thing you'll ever do.

Being part of that 2005 Ashes series under Vaughney was just, I mean, nothing will ever compare with that, just the way the whole nation sort of got behind us and the momentum we gained, it was just extraordinary. We broke out of the cricket bubble, which was extraordinary. And then for me personally, that Ashes series in 2010-11, you know, if you look at the context, in 2006 we lost 5-0, in 2013 we lost 5-0, and 2017 we lost 4-0,

and we were able to win 3-1 and win three of those games by an inning. So it was an extraordinary performance by a group of players that just had the bit between their teeth. And I'm very proud of that. As a captain, things couldn't have gone any better. We can go back to your first Ashes series, so even before you were captain. Did you notice any change in Michael Vaughn

as a captain in the ashes compared to in any other series? Well, I think what Vorney was very laid back and relaxed and so that was quite a big contrast from Nassu Hussein, his predecessor. You know, I think what he went through was the most pressurized series that any of us ever played in.

He was able to remain unflappable on the surface and calm. I know for a fact that beneath a service he was anything but that, but that was important because we were all struggling. We were all struggling to sleep. it utterly consumed us all and for the captain to still seem in control gave us a lot of reassurance I suppose

and did you take did you learn that from Michael for when you became captain of that trying to appear calm for the team even if you're not yeah if underneath the duck's feet are paddling away I think so I think that was also my natural style you know I wasn't one that got massive flustered and get too high or low. But I think what I took from that 2005 actually is have a plan and see it through. You know, be very, very clear. This is how we're going to win out here. And even though you might have good days or bad days and the media is saying you're doing something wrong, just see it through. And then at the end, if it doesn't work for you, that's fine. At least you go, we had a crack. We gave it our best shot and it didn't

work for us. I think it's so easy to get deflected from that because there's so much noise out there. There's so much opinion, noise and obviously huge reactions to the highs and lows. So have your plan. If you think that's what's going to win you the ashes, go and see it through make sure the players all know exactly what role they have to play in it.

If you do that, you've got a chance. When you've lifted the urn at the Oval in 2009, is it then that the planning starts for 10-11 ashes down under? Yeah, so 10-11 was like the holy grail for us i'd been part of that 2006 ashes series you remember on the back of winning in

2005 huge expectations isn't this going to be amazing and we fell flat on our face for all sorts of reasons some of which we could control some of which we couldn't um to lose that five nil was an incredibly humbling experience for me you know i remember being in the lift of a hotel in perth and barmy army england fans just coming in the lift and it's going that that was a disgrace you should be ashamed of yourself and you know to hear that from your fans is pretty hard to stumbling I sort of made a vow to myself the next time we came

over here whether I was captain or not we were going to do things differently how did you react when they said that wasn't all that happy I wasn't in the best of moods anyway to be honest but um no I think what you realize is that people are putting their life on hold to watch you guys

in action in an Asher series in a way they wouldn't otherwise hoping and expecting something really compelling and we weren't able to deliver it. It wasn't for the lack of trying. I think that's the thing that hurts. It's like, well, we've tried absolutely as hard as we can. But I just came away from that thinking, if we come back to Australia, there's certain things we have to do differently. And I'll tell you what, I'm going to give it absolutely everything. And that was my motivation as captain heading into that series. What sort of things were you doing? What sort of

meetings we have and what sort of changes were you putting in place to make sure that things were done differently? Yeah, so we had probably an 18 month plan leading up to that. So on the one hand, I myself and Andy Flower both felt we need to be more resilient because we're going to be tested in a way. Australia's a harsh country. It's a big country. It's hot. Always obviously sense of attention there and the Aussies like to give you a bit of stick. So we need to be more resilient. So we planned this trip away to Bavaria, boot camp, I suppose. want to call it which was designed to do that we had a series of planning meetings with the players themselves just in little groups going out for dinner talking about ways we might get tested in

australian trying to put together some kind of what if planning what if this happens what if this happens well ahead of the event um obviously try to get ourselves as physically fit and then really focus on a game plan that might work out there and i think that's where we've always fell flat on our face is we expect our bowlers that are good in english conditions to be good in Australia and it's never the case so we had to find another way of doing it and we we came up with this plan around containing the Aussies like suffocating them with accuracy and building maidens and all that sort of stuff you know I remember getting a huge amount of stick for being overly negative but that was sort of seeing the plan through Anderson broad did their job

Tim Bresden and came in and did an amazing job and swan was outstanding as well and so that that that strategy of containment was incredibly effective for us. You talks about the sort of what if scenarios. What sort of scenarios had you planned for that maybe didn't come up? You know, just things like, you know, you're on the boundary and they're hurling abuse at you. What are you going to do? You know, how are you going to react to that? What happens if we lose in Brisbane?

You know, Brisbane, the first test match, traditionally if you lose there, you're gone. So in the first five days of the series, the series might be over. So just all those sort of conversations And I don't know if you remember But that first day in Brisbane I got out for a duck So that wasn't the start I was looking for I remember Matt Pryor got a first ball duck

Stuart Broad got a first ball duck And there were three of us sitting next to each other And dressing room With zero runs to our name And a grand total four balls that we'd face And we're like All our planning We never talked about this happening

But you know We came back in that test match And managed to draw it and that was the precursor to us taking control of that series. There must have been a time when you and Alastair Cook are heading out to bat for that second innings. Are you still confident that you've got all the plans in place there? Are you ever sort of questioning yourself, doubting yourself, you know,

maybe this isn't going to play? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we had a deficit of 250-odd. What I wasn't doubting was the plan. I think the plan was absolutely fine. We just hadn't executed it. I mean, we hadn't got enough runs with the bat in the first innings and we'd let Australia off the hook with the ball.

So a game of test cricket has never over tilts over. And you can have all the plans you want. The guys have to go out and perform. And, you know, thankfully, Alice has got that incredible double 100. Jonathan Trott got 100. I got 100. And in the space of four sessions of play, the whole momentum of the series had completely shifted.

Am I right in saying that before that series, you and E Flower took the players' wives and girlfriends out for dinner to explain to them, sort of try and get them to buy into your plans as well? Yeah, exactly. So that was another thing that I think we both thought was important. A cricketer, we tend to view them as a cricketer, but they're a person, right? And they will be affected by all sorts of things.

what's happening on the pitch, but also what's happening off the pitch. And so what we wanted to say to the girls was, first of all, they had a huge role to play in this, and we were going to try and create an environment that was welcoming and inclusive of them, but also that just for them to appreciate this is a very significant small time in their partner's lives where it might be the only Ashes series they play in,

and, you know, to dig deep and find a way of supporting them as much as they could. And that was a break from the past, obviously, but hopefully it got them feeling connected and a part of something. It was an interesting meeting, actually. It was a really good thing for us to do. Was there any sort of reluctance there, or was there sort of generally good buy-ins that they were in agreement with what? No, they were very much, 100% supportive.

I think just what was really interesting for Andy and I was just to hear some of the stories around what they go through during a talk. and some of the ways that, you know, the wives and girlfriends were neglected or not thought about. And that was the precursor to, you know, to them not being all that happy. And if they're not happy, it comes back to the players. So we had to try and get that right from a sort of team environment point of view. And, I mean, there's so many elements to National Series, isn't it? It's dealing with the media effectively.

It's making sure the logistics and the planning's right. It's the warm-up games where we play. so we you know Australia as they always do will have your final warm-up game in Hobart which couldn't be further away from Brisbane both in terms of conditions and in terms of distance so you know we played our strongest batting unit out there but we sent our bowlers up a week early to get acclimatized to Brisbane so small details but a lot of planning went into and often you do all that planning and it's to no avail on this occasion it all worked for us.

You talked about sort of projecting an image to the team. Did you ever worry about or, you know, give much consideration to projecting the wider image out to the public or to the opposition or, you know, famously Mike really grew a beard because when he was captained down under, he said it, he thought it made him appear a bit more intimidating to the others. But was there anything like that that you sort of, you know, an image you wanted to give off? no i mean our default with with all that sort of stuff was let's just concentrate on what's going on in the four walls our dressing room i think actually in hindsight that was probably a mistake for us

generally as an environment because i think it it sort of made us quite sort of insular i suppose and maybe over time that led to people not understanding what made us we probably weren't as personable as we could have been but uh no i think the only thing we we said was the Aussies themselves we were going to go out and engage them and you know have a bit of a chat with them and we had this perception that they would try and blank us and it was like good well if they're going to try and blank us let's go out and really make it hard for them to blank us so that was a sort of strategy we employed you know all these things and this is why it was so good to get the players involved in this planning process because it just wets the appetite and stimulates thought so when

you're actually in that situation you're not going through it for the the first time. And I think that was really helpful for us. Well, that was Andrew Strauss. Talking to Five Lives, Tim Peach and the second day of the Lord's test in this Ashes series will be the Ruth Strauss Foundation Day in honour of Andrew's

late wife. Lords turning red to mark the occasion. Now, Michael, let's talk about sticking with a plan. Even if you doubt it, and it's actually something we saw from Owen Morgan, didn't we, during the World Cup, that he said, this is the plan, we're going to stick with it. Even if you doubt it, even if everybody doubt,

outset. Yeah, I mean, you have to have a vision. When you take over the captain's seat, you have to have a vision of what is the future goal. You have short-term goals, which is, you know, win a game or make sure that you've got your team playing to a fashion. Then you want the medium-term goals of winning a couple of series. You've got to be playing well to win an Ashes series. And obviously, the long-term goal for an Ashes captain is to beat Australia. And you can clearly, you know, hear from Andrew Strauss is the planning that went into winning in Australia, all the meetings, getting the wives together, making sure that they understand. understood exactly what the players were going to go through, going away on a boot camp,

trying to really kind of stem the Australians with patience, bowl for dots. Fundamental, it's about players. It's about having good enough players. To win an Ashes series, you can have the best laid plans. You know, these are 1% things that, you know, go a long way to winning the Ashes series, but you need players. You know, in 2005, I look at my team, I had four seam bowlers that could ball, 85 miles an hour plus and swing the ball either way.

You know, we batted first on four occasions, knowing that Shane Warren was probably the greatest leg spinner that's ever lived. There's no way that we would have won that Ashes series. We'd have bowed first four times. We got lucky at Edgebaston with a toss, Ricky Pont and decided to bowl first, and we got lucky with Glenn McGrath. You know, you go to all these series, and you look at them, and you kind of put a magnifying glass across most Ashes series. And the team that wins generally is the team that has got really good players, but also you have the element of fortune that goes your way. way and you know we as captains we always talk a bit of nonsense and we like to big up all our skill sets of what we said in the dressing room and our man management styles but

fundamentally it's about having good enough players yes you need a plan but you also need that element of luck and the plan is that you can have a have a you can do the planning obviously in the buildup to the series but once the series has started if you've got a plan and you've been blown away at the gabber for example you know do you what does it take to actually then say no we're still going to stick to the plan well you've got to be a good actor. You know, your job as a captain is to stay the same. I believe if you're an aggressive captain, you've got to be aggressive all the time. If you're a very placid, calm, relaxed captain, which was my style, you know, I go back to the first test tier in 2005. We were blown away

by Australia and we froze. No question that the players froze on the big stage. We bowled them out cheaply on day one. All our talk about being aggressive against, Shane Warren and Glenn McGraw, making sure that, you know, we weren't going to let them bowl. Kevin Peterson was picked for that reason. All the players were told, freedom, go and attack those two bowlers. And we froze on that first big stage at Lords. And I remember sitting in the dress room after this thing, right, what do I say? And I kind of just said, you know what, lads, that's just one bullet, don't worry about it.

I got in my car to drive back home. And I remember David Gravenor, the chairman of the selector, he was ringing me, and I thought, I'm not even answering it, because I'm not changing the team. I want to say true. Go with the same team at Edge Basson, so I didn't need to have a conversation with the selectors. But as I was driving back to Sheffield, I was seeing, we're knackered. We're absolutely knackered. All this hype, all this build-up. You know, we were with this great hope that finally, you know, we had an England test match team that could really go toe to toe with

this Australian side. And at the first hurdle, what, we were collapsed. And I remember driving back to Sheff thinking, this is going to be one long summer. Unless something changes drastically. I remember getting to Edge Bast and getting them in the room and just saying, right, we go ultra-aggressive. So if we get the bat in hand and we get that opportunity to bat first, all of you go ultra-aggressive, ultra-aggressive at Warren, ultra-aggressive at McGraw. Fortunately, he didn't play. He was stretching off.

So there's the element of fortune. But in the back of my mind, you know, you doubt yourself. You do as a leader. And I remember going to the hotel room in Birmingham, and it was a night before. And I was thinking, have I done the right thing? Have I done the right thing? Because tomorrow could be a disaster.

In maintaining that approach, that's saying, this is the aggressive approach, and sticking to your plan. Absolutely. And I was saying, well, do we play old school? We just try and hang in there or? I just thought, look, that is the message that we've been given the players for two years. You know, the Australian scoring rate was at around 3.67.

Our scoring rate up until that period was around 2.67. You know, and that was across about a 10-year period. So it didn't take a rocket scientist to understand that for us to compete with Australia, we had to score a bit quicker. Against that bowling attack, it was going to be very difficult to about 130 overs by playing Orthodox and being convention. So I thought if we scored quicker and only about in 90 years

at least would be in the contest that was our plan and Andrew Streis is absolutely right that you just have to stick with it and at times you doubt yourself and at times you're thinking me as captain I must be talking utter nonsense here

and the amount of kind of elements of doubt that go through your mind across an ashes series is unquestionable and the whole business of caring for the person not the cricketer that you heard Andrew Strauss talk about that was one of your mantras as well i'm a big believer in that in management that um you know

across sport or in business i think it's important that if you want to manage people you've got to understand the people that you're managing uh so i went out in my way to to try and find out who the person was rather than the player i wanted to find out exactly what motivated every single player and everyone's motivated by different sources you know some are motivated by stats numbers test caps um some you know probably don't need too many guesses to understand which which ones are motivated by money and fame, that's fine, but I needed to know that, you know, and I think as a leader, if you know exactly what motivates every single individual, you can just give them a snippet, you know, so when the pressure's on, you can just whisper in their ear

exactly why they're out there. Just talking about planning and the fact that the 2010-11 tour, which Andrew Strauss says, there so much planning in went into that tour, do you worry slightly that the planning for this upcoming Ashes series will have been affected by planning for the World Cup? Yeah, I think if you go across English cricket now for four years, the planning for winning the World Cup was spot on. You know, they left Australia in 2015, knocked out by Bangladesh. One day cricket in England was probably at rock bottom,

not played well since 92. And I mean Morgan, Trevor Bailey's got together and they said, right, what do we need to do to win the World Cup in 2019 on home shore? And that was number one pick one day cricketers. Number two, have a plan of exactly the style of cricket that's going to get us to number one. We've got to win series all around the world, so we're used to all the conditions. And everything that they did worked. Now, in Test Match cricket, if you look at both England and Australia,

I'm not too sure that either team know exactly the style of cricket that's required consistently because both teams are very inconsistent. And I look at both sets of players, the decent, the good. I've got a lot of talent amongst them, but I don't see at the minute that they've got the plans that Andrew Strauss had going down to Australia in 10-11. I guess that we had in 2003-4 to win in 2005. And because England have won so many Ashes series, maybe they feel they don't have to.

Maybe they feel that they just turn up in England and they know that we can win Ashes Series in England. For England to win in Australia, and vice versa for Australia to win here for the first time since 2001, I think you need to have more of a strategic plan and a plan that goes over two years, not two months. and at the minute I look at both teams and I think they've got very short-term plans

and it's not something that's been a kind of a plan that's been sorted over a couple of years. Well, we've heard from Andrew Strauss. Let's hear now from his successor as England's test captain. Michael, you've been speaking to Alistair Cook. Alistair, when I say Ash's cricket, what does that mean to you? I think it means to me the pinnacle of me test cricket.

You know, the series where you are, it is the top of the tree. that you are tested everything at your most. And what about if I say Aschie's captaincy? It's more the same, just a bit more scrutiny, I think. It's a high-pressured seven or eight weeks, I think. You go back to 2013, the first time that you walk out against Australia as a captain. How did that feel different to any other series?

You have the kind of date in your mind for quite a long period of time. It's not like any other series. You know when that series is starting. So Joe Rittle will know when that first test match, that first day is. And you'd have had it for a long period. As soon as it gets announced, you kind of start the count then when you know you're going to be a plane, also as a captain as well. That day at Nottingham is when I had my first one as a captain.

You are more nervous. You are more agitated because it means so much you to play in that series. So it's – and I think at the beginning of us, that series you would give anything to be holding the earn at the end you know you don't care if you score no runs whatsoever or it's or it's an ugly win or anything you just at the series you just such I would just if I could be at the oval and I'm the captain picking that up you know you'd give everything for that so I only captained in one series and I'd say the seven weeks at 05 you know you try and put on a cool face you know captain calm I'd say I

hardly slept. There probably wasn't one minute of those seven or eight weeks where I didn't think about a field placement, potential bowling change, winning the toss, conditions at all the different venues. Were you feeling the same around 2013? Not quite as much as that. I mean the series you captain obviously I think you know would have probably been such a wreck at the end of it because every game went down to the while at least and then going to that last game, the oval for you guys knowing how close you were to winning that game, winning that series after so long. I mean, that would have been,

the time I struggled was actually here in 2015 in the third and fourth test matches. I was fine at Cardiff. It was my second time as a captain in England. And also, we weren't expected to win. Australia were the favourers. You know, surprisingly, in one sense, the home team wasn't the favour.

So I actually felt quite calm going to that. And I thought we could upset them. I genuinely thought we could upset. quite like him being the underdog to there. But when Stuart Broad and Stuart Ball, you know, 8 for 15 on the fourth test match and bowled out of the 60, and at Edgeburston when we bowled him out of 130, those two nights of both test matches, I just could not see. I couldn't bear to be the captain who couldn't win a game, you know, after bowling out of

60 or bowling out of 120. We had the opportunity so to win that, and that's when I struggle those four nights. And how is it mentally as a leader when clearly things aren't going with the team? You mentioned you come up against the bow like Mitchell Johnson that it felt to me like the Aussies, there was a juggernaut that hit you in Brisbane. And then obviously Jonathan Trott went home, Graham Swan pretty much retired, and then you're still leading the team in your team. How hard is that to cope with?

How much harder is it than any other series that you're playing? Yeah, I mean, and I took this from years of captain. When you were, when you captained, you had your sunglasses on, your floppy hat on, and you didn't, you never showed us any emotion very often. You were just, whether you know, whether you're swan-like and your calm and grace on top, but your legs are flapping like anything underneath the surface. You know, that was, for me, that was what I tried to do in that series. You know, things were falling apart.

And, you know, it almost went before that series where, you know, we had a few things which off the field, a couple of camp, which went really badly. we picked players who now in hindsight pick players who weren't match fit Chris Tremlett wasn't the bowler he was in 2010 Boyd Rankin had a lot of

issues which did we know about a lot of things where it wasn't great and I got to the stage where it was just I need to be the captain that everyone can still look at even when everything is falling apart the bloke that was still rock solid

even though underneath I was absolutely gutted and devastating this is happening on my watch but I tried just So if people did look at me, as a leader, sometimes people look at you and just how's, if he's coping, then I can cope. And I tried to be that. You know, for me, as my leadership, it taught me so much about what I needed to do, what I needed to go and work on. And actually the next six months after that period, obviously, we're off the field officers with the Kevin Peterson stuff and the Sri Lanka and the India series, that period kind of defined me as a leader. You always doubt yourself, don't you always doubt, am I the right man to lead this team?

well I did anyway and then it's probably at the end of the term of 14 then how am I going to prepare for Ashes that winter and you know that for the next summer You've won two Ashes series You've had two home victories

And one whitewash Are the two victories Some of the highest moments of your career And where is the whitewash? Yeah the whitewash is at the bottom Alongside the next couple of test matches At Sri Lanka and India That kind of goes into one little period

Of my life I suppose The six months there 2015 probably gave me the most satisfaction of my team as our kind of, that's a bit arrogant to say my team. It was the team I felt like I contribute to the most with the people like Ben Stokes coming through, Joe Root and the other, the 2013 team was still kind of an Andrew Strauss-style team underhandi Flour.

This felt like my team and winning when it's the underdogs. It's nothing better than that. Well, that's Alistair Cook talking to Michael Vaughn, who is with me. Now, he and Andrew Strauss, both. talked about the swan putting on a show when things aren't going quite as calm underneath as they appear on the surface yeah and i can completely identify with that that as a captain you have to stay level and the most important part of that role is when you're dealing with the media

because the players will be listening to every single conference and interview that you give and your job as a captain in front of the media is to portray that there's nothing wrong portray that everything's fine and it's calm and you know deep down you think absolutely shit to myself it's all going horribly wrong but you've got to put yourself at the front of everything and when you're talking to the team you've got to stay very calm

and controlled that the plan hasn't gone away just because you've had one bad day or one bad game or one bad innings you've got to stay true to I guess what you'd have been talking about leading into the series and you know it's the hardest part of your life but the most rewarding you know the seven weeks that generally

the ashes take you know back your hotel room back at home and people say oh you get away from the game three three or four days in between you get away you know go home and try and settle there's no way that you can do that as a captain 24 seven over those seven weeks all you are thinking about is how you're going to be Australia so we've heard from the English captains but what's it like being an Aussie captain Michael I wonder if you had the chance ever to speak to Ricky Ponting your counterpart in 2005 about what that series was like for him I've worked with him a few on a few occasions but I'll be dead honest with you I haven't really had the

the heart to sit him down and say, should we go through O'Five again? Because, you know, he's had a lot of stick for his decisions, you know, the tossed decision at Edgebaston. You know, to think that he bowled first, I guess his mindset was, well, just bowled England out twice at Lords. They're useless, typical England.

Can't bat under pressure of an Ashes series. We'll just go again. I know McGraw's on the stretcher, but we've got Kaspovich. You know, we've still got Gillespie. We've got Brett Lee, Shane Warren. You know, this England's side are just full of noise, full of nonsense and we'll blow them away again.

So in terms of cricket in kind of thought process, you don't think it's ridiculous. But when you look back at 2005 in the surface, it was dry. There was a bit of cloud about. And it goes down as one of the worst decisions. So my honest dancer, Ellie, is I haven't had the heart to sit down with them a disc or so far. Well, as we mentioned, you've been speaking to two legendary former Australia captains.

Let's start first with the man who sparked nearly two decades of Aussie Ashes dominant. Alan Border, can you give a potted history for our younger listeners who don't remember Alan Border? Well, Alan Border, I mean, if you ask any Australian player, you know, the modern player, you know, go through the 90s, they say that Alan Border made Australian cricket. From where they were in the 80s, you know, he was hammered in an Ashes series as captain in 85, lost on home shore in 86, 87 against Mike Gattin's England side. he was battered from pillar to post really questioned about his leadership his style his manner and then he came back and won three Ashes series and I just happened to meet him at a cricket ground just recently

if I should have described England in one word when it comes to cricket and ashes what would you say one word that's many square words I can think of you can say whatever you want no no no look it's the ultimate opposition I know it's two words

but it's just it's the ultimate test match opposition it doesn't get any better than that compared to other series what was it like captain in the ashes it's special it's a special series

is in Australia England traditions all the history that goes with the contests over the years when you're young growing up you read about those contests going to way back to, well, WG Grace, did he plan the test match?

Ash's test matches, Donald Bradman, Victor Trump, all those names, great names that we've read about in Australian Korea. You've all of a sudden you're part of it, so being the captain is special. So you lose that first one in 85, then you get at 8687. Yeah. That doesn't go well again. Where are you as a captain at this state? This is when I'm starting to question whether, you know, I'm the right bloke.

for the job. After that particular series, we'd sunk. You know, like, it's a story that I think about now. In 867, we'd played England at the MCG, you know, traditional Boxing Day test match, and we'd been absolutely hammered in three days. And it was like the lowest feeling I can think about. And it was probably the lowest sort of point

we'd got to as a cricket team. And, you know, as the sides were doing, and get together afterwards. England pretty cock a hoop. They've just won the Ashes again. They've gone 2-0 up, one test match to play. And we're sort of kicking cans around our dressing around, as you can imagine. But, you know, as is customary, sides get together for a few beers after the match. And, yeah, the mood starts to lighten up a bit as we're having a few beers. There's a Davis Cup tennis tie happening down the road. Pat Cash is in the final. final rubber playing against a guy called Michael Pernforce from Sweden.

And Cashie goes two sits and all down. Of course we're sitting there watching this and England are going for Sweden. Of course we're backing our boy Pat Cash and there's a good sort of banter going on between the teams and of course Pat Cash starts coming back so we've sort of got something to cheer about finally and Cashy ends up winning the blinking thing. So Australia win the Davis Cup. So we're all jumping up and down something to cheer about for the day after a pretty ordinary day. pretty ordinary day playing cricket and so in the presentation the then prime minister's bob

hawk and in his speech as he's presenting the trophy to the Australians he mentions that you know the words to the effect it's a pity there was an 11 pat caches at the mcg today oh it went down like a lead balloon as you can't imagine there's lots of cans and rubbish from at the tv and sort of didn't so you're in the dress room lobbing cans at the tv because the prime minister's had a pop at you all exactly right but the trouble Oz was pretty true you know we played so badly and we deserved it you know good old kick up the back side

but yeah so that was our low point I do remember that being one of those test matches that sort of lingered in the dressing rooms England sort of went off to celebrate we a core group of the boys stayed in the rooms and we drank there till I don't know very late in the evening then went back to our manager's room

and kept it going and basically you know the old lime the sand type scenario okay that's it no more and we end up winning the next test match in Sydney which is yeah it was good for us as a team

but you know the series had already been lost so but still something to hang your hat on yeah going forward interestingly right in 2002 3 I came here to play and we won the last game

at Sydney I wasn't the captain and we lost the series 4-1 and I took so much from that win so I'd scored a big 100 I got the captaincy in 203 Yeah, four, three, and all I wanted to do is beat Australia. Yeah. But I'd learnt a lot from that one victory,

knowing that if you could play toe-to-to-toe with the Aussies and go at them and look them in the eye and say, we're going to come at you. Yeah. There's a chance you can beat anybody. Yes, it's so true. And, well, that's interesting because I took a lot out of that particular game, you know, going forward into the next Ashes series for sure.

What did you do differently as a person compared to 85, 8, 6, 87? and that line in the sun moment, what did you do differently that you'd not done before? I think I sort of accepted that I was the captain. I was the right bloke for the job. And so I grabbed the reins a little bit more tightly. Up until then I'd been a bit wishy-washy about doing the job. So, yeah, so I just got a harder edge to my approach to things.

I started to sit down and actually think about the sides you're playing against, the side you've got on the park what you're looking for out of your team communicating with the players a lot better a lot more regularly you know one-on-ones group type scenario I wasn't much of a you know Churchillian speech giver but did you give speeches in the dressing room not not really you know occasionally ball outs but not inspirational speeches

through a few things Yeah, frustration sometimes comes out. You know, that was more when I'd verbalise things. But little one-on-ones, I did that a lot better, put it that way. So 8 to 9, you changed a few things, didn't you? Just tell us a couple of things that you brought to the... Well, there's a little 1% as I was looking for. And including from me that, you know, I'd had to have a harder edge to how I approached playing against England

as a captain because I knew a lot of the guys from England for such a long time you know the core group with you know Gower and Gathing both in Gooch etc etc

I just knew them those guys so well and you know I'd always got on very well with them so I just thought you know what I've just got to back off here I've got to you know

take a real you know back seat as far as my relationship with them I'd cop the fair bit of flack in 85 for you know being sort of fairly outward in my you know like of

the opposition and so I sort of took that on board a little bit and so I thought okay well there's there's one little percentage point I can change you know just to see what the reaction is from the England boys is if I you know give them the cold shoulder so you gave them the cold shoulder in 89 yep definitely yeah I didn't speak to them oh very little you know I was civil but I wasn't chummy and I didn't really go in for drinks and catch up for dinners and did they try and get in the dresser in for drinks with you um yeah yeah but it was sort of was one of those series where we just, you know, we decided that we're going to play a harder edge and it just threw England a bit out of balance as far as, you know,

what the hell is going on with A-B. I didn't put a blanket ban our guys going in or them coming into our own, but I just blocked them very on the shoulder. Well, that was Alan Border talking to Michael Vaughn, who is with me. We'll talk about relations between the two sets of players as well and how, what your attitude was to that. But this business of being motivated by being, for Andrew Strauss, sledge in the lift by a member of the Barmy Army, for Alan Borda, criticised on TV by the Aussie Prime Minister. Was there a moment that you used to motivate yourself and the players?

I just think back in 2002-3, I'd mention it to Alan that, you know, I was a part of an England side that lost 4-1, but we beat them at Sydney in a test match. Andrew Caddick got seven-foot and we're in their dressing rooms after the game, just having a beer and just talking. and one of you two comments came back from the Australians around that time to us that you know we played the game poorly and our mindset was all wrong county cricket was useless and I just felt they were talking down to us and being a little bit disrespectful to the fact that you know they were a lot better you know they had better players and you know we tried our best we just weren't good enough and on paper we were nowhere near good enough and you know it was that moment that I remember again getting the job in 2003 and thinking you know I remember those conversations And by 2005, we have to be different. And during 2005, you know, a few things happened throughout that series, I guess against a few of their players that were a part of that conversation in 2002-3 in that dressing room in Sydney. And the planning that had taken place from the England side to just play a different way

and put them under pressure, just prove to me that, you know, if you play strong cricket and you have good players and you play with great discipline, it doesn't matter what the paper says in terms of quality. It's about you playing good cricket over that period of time. time. And I was a big believer that, you know, the Aussie side from the 90s to the early 2000, they were so good that that tour of 2002, three, the only time we were allowed to drink with them was at the end of the series. You know, NASA's kind of method was we don't want to know them. We don't want to speak to them. Do you think that's a good thing or a bad thing?

Well, it's down to you as a leader. My style was I wanted our players to know them because I just felt that if you looked at Australia around that time with all those great players and you just looked at their numbers, you know, their wins, their averages, they can look like You can look at them and go, I mean, how can you beat that lot? But when you get to know them, you have a beer with them and understand that they're just human and they're actually good guys, when you come and face them for the first time or, you know, you're out in the middle and you're trying to be competitive against them, you realize they are just human, but very good at what they do. They're very good cricketers.

And I think in 2002, three, we weren't a good enough team anyway. You know, we were nowhere near the quality that we ended up playing to in 2005. But, you know, the fact that we couldn't get to know them, I did feel that it kind of created this. this bigger gulf between the two sides and the two mindsets. And they had this, you know, under Steve War, I thought he was an unbelievable captain because he could portray you as an opposing team to be very small.

He just had the mindset of looking at you. He wouldn't say hello. It was a bit like Alan Border. You know, Alan Border changed in 89. He says that in his interview, that he had to change. He had to be different. He was best pals with Ian Botham.

You know, best pals with the Graham Gouch, but he binned him at the toss in 89 at Headingly. He just thought, I'm not speaking to you, Gucci. You can get lost. And, you know, you have to do things differently. You have to change yourself as a leader. And, you know, I just think, you know, getting to know the opposition is great, particularly when they're better than you.

If you're better than them, you know, I wouldn't let them in. If we were miles better than an opposing team, I'd be like, no, you're not getting to know any of the players. You've got to kind of just look at us on paper and try and play against us. So it's just all the different mindset that you have to have in an ashes series that just make that little difference. You're listening to Alan Border. He's similar in his approach to Andrew Strauss,

talking about the one percenters. what are the one percenters? Well, the one percent is the plans in place and the plans in place are the style of play that you've got to pick to beat the opposing team

and that's the opposing team at that certain time of the Ashes series. It's the planning of the grounds of the wickets. It's the planning of the culture around the team, the kind of messaging around

what you say as a group of players to the media, getting the wives, you know, Alan Borda, been the wives. They weren't allowed on tour. that upset big Merv Andrew Strauss wanted the wives

to understand exactly what the players were going to go through so there's two different stars of approach I guess two different eras from the 80s to now in the 21st century but those 1% has count for a lot but ultimately I will always say this it's about bowlers

if you've got bowlers it can get your 20 wickets you can win an ashes series well the final captain we're going to hear from today is Ian Chappell and just again a little reminder for people who don't remember the 1970s Michael What can you tell us about him? Well, he was an incredible leader

and also an incredible batsman. I've just mentioned bowlers. He had Dennis Lilly and Jeff Thompson, two of the greatest quick bowlers of all time. And, you know, I would say of all the Australians that I've had the chance to work with over the course the last 10 or 15 years, I would say that he doesn't like the English probably the most.

Well, let's hear from Ian Chappell, who says that the fast, aggressive bowling of Lily and Thompson in that 74-75 tour was revenge for an infamous English plan of many years before. My grandfather was vice captain during body line, vice captain of Australia. And Vic wanted to retaliate. You know, he told me this when I was a kid. But Bill Woodfall was a gentleman and he was the bloke who made that comment. You know, there's two teams out here, but only one of them playing cricket.

And Vic had said to him, Bill, you know, we've got to retaliate. and Vic always said to me as a kid he said don't ever think that we didn't have the blokes to retaliate we did but Bill said no and Vic respected Bill but I thought to myself many years later isn't it funny that Vic wanted to retaliate and suddenly here I am

what are we 41 years later and I've got Lillian Thompson and I sort of I thought to myself well hey Vic we've just retaliated for you mate but what happened this was really interesting I went to England in 74 and I did this press conference during that test match. This guy says to me,

oh, will Dennis Lilly be back? And I said, well, mate, I'm not a medical man. I don't know about that. But I said, I'll just say one thing to you. If Dennis Lilly comes back, he won't be a medium-paced. He'll only come back if he can bowl pretty quick. So next guy says, how fast is this Jeff Thompson? And I said, mate, he's bloody quick.

Oh, but he wouldn't be as fast as Dennis Lilly in 72. I said, don't you bet on it, mate. I said he could be quicker. Jeff Thompson is bloody quick. So from that, I'm gathering that we're going to get the s-pounced out of us by England, you see. And then I see the team, and there's a lot of fast bowlers there. And I'm thinking, right, there's going to be a few coming our way. I won the toss at the Gabba, and it was one of those pitches where you could have easy gone one way or the other.

and my grandfather had told me this and bear in mind that he was a captain in the days of uncovered pitches and he told me as a kid he said son if you're ever captain if you win the toss nine times out of ten you bat first 10th time you think about sending him in

and then you bat first anyhow and I think that must have come into my mind I thought no I'll bat first and it was it was tough going Bob Willis bounced us a bit Peter Leaver I forget who else they had Greggy was there, and they had another quickie, so I can't think who that was. Anyway, there's a few bouncers flying around, and then they saw, well, they knew what

Dennis was going to be like, but then they saw Jeff Thompson. And it was funny how abruptly the bounces stopped after that. And Gregie, you know, I've spoken to Gregie about it quite a lot, and he was saying to the England quickies, you know, bounce these bastards, you're going to get them any out. And he said, you just couldn't talk him into bowling bouncer bowling. He said, so I had to do the bouncer bowling in it. So it wasn't a tactic. And, you know, there was a lot written, a lot of crap written about the way we bowled to England.

I mean, Jeff Thompson didn't, it was a waste of time in bowling a bouncer because it went miles over your head and usually straight over Rodney's head as well. The awkward one was the one at throat hide. And that was the great thing about Tom. That was not, I mean, he was probably the way. one who genuinely disliked England the most I think

because I remember him Why was that? Well I know he just I remember him being interviewed and he said Ah mate they bloody think they're better than us They think we're just

bloody convicts and so on And that was Tomo's attitude Now I don't know whether that came from family From education whatever But that was the way Tomo felt So as an ex-Ozzy captain in ashes I know it's a long time ago

What advice would you give in pain? Well, he missed the boat, in my opinion. When he took over, he should have done what Mark Taylor did when he took over from Alan Border. Alan Border let Bob Simpson have way too much control as a coach. And to me, the captain's got to run the cricket team. You can't do everything, obviously, as a captain, but never ever delegate anything that has an effect on you're winning or losing the game. Now, when Mark Taylor took over from Alan Border, Bob Simpson step forward to speak to the players. Mark Taylor just grabbed him by the arm

and just pulled him back gently and he said, Bob, I'll take care of this. And he let those players know from day one he was in charge. Tim Payne, I understand probably why he didn't because he probably felt like he was a bit of a fill-in job and the circumstances that he'd taken over. But he still should have went Justin Langan.

Justin Langa's having way too much to say as coach and, you know, Tim should have taken control. So that, but that's passed now. He's left that as too late. You know, what would... Any advice you'd give him? Now, win. The easiest way to be a well-like captain when your tour is to lose.

You'll be very popular. You might not be popular if you'll win, but you'll be bloody happy. Well, that was Ian Chappell. We wish him well because he's revealed that he's been receiving treatment for skin cancer, so get well soon. Michael, there's got a question about Tim Payne, because he's become the Australian captain almost by default. And he's now going into an Ashes series in England. Oh, you know, he knows England.

He's played here as well. But what pressure do you think is on him particularly? Well, it's a perform. You know, Tim Payne's a good guy, you know, and he was the right pair of hands to take over a real tricky situation. And he's done it with great esteem. You know, his manner has been tremendous, but he needs to perform. You know, when you've got someone like Alex Carey, waiting in the wings. We saw Kerry play so well in the World Cup and he's certainly got a gift

to be in the test match team. I think the pressure will build on Tim Payne early in the series if his team don't perform and in particular if he doesn't perform. It goes back to Mike Brearley in a way, doesn't it? For England, you know, a man who's placed in the team was always slightly questioned. Yeah, I mean, he's an honourable chap, his Tim Payne and he'll make sure that the Australians are playing in the right fashion, but he will know that he has to perform and you know, there's nothing worse as a captain if you're not performing and your team are losing and I think that the pressure will build on him

if particularly the first test match at Edgebast in England have got such a record at Edgebaston across all formats of the game. Australia generally have struggled at Edgebaston and if England can win that first test and also put Tim Payne under pressure for his performance I really do feel it's going to have a big say in the whole series. And a quick question, going back to the Lillian Thompson business

because I mean, you know, if you're a captain and you've got two incredible fast bowlers like that, you know, then you are blessed. But how, do you have to make sure that you know how to handle your weapons, so to speak? Well, you've got to know how to manage the people, you know, and characters. You know, you go back to, you know, Lillian Thompson, you've got big Merv, you know, there's so many characters that played in the Ashes series. I had Freddie Flintoff that was great for the team because particularly for me as captain,

I knew if there was a quiet afternoon out in the middle. many quiet afternoons in 2005, I'd just throw the ball of Freddie Flint off and all of a sudden 20,000 spectators beyond the feet. The noise would just start to escalate and the atmosphere suddenly started to be creating. We always felt the momentum was going to come back our way. So it's important that you know how to manage those kind of characters and I'll keep saying it, you can't win Ashes series without having great bowlers. Was it hard to get the ball off him sometimes? Sometimes, yeah, it was sometimes you had to rip it out of his hands because he'd want to bowl. you go back to the Oval in 2005,

you're bowled a whole morning to make sure that Australia were bowled out. But, you know, Steve Harmeson was very similar and Matthew Hogg or Simon Jones. And that's why, I mean, we get so much praise as captains. You know, you get all the headlines and everything's an incredible leader. I haven't seen many great leaders

lead cricket teams without having great bowlers. So we're all very fortunate that once we've lift that little trope of the urn, it's generally because we've had great bowlers. Well, we began by hearing from Andrew Strauss and Alistair Cook. So what would their advice to Joe Root be ahead of this Ashes series? Do it your way. Make sure you're using the strengths of the team and don't do what other people think you should do.

You know that team better than anyone else. Don't have any regrets. Be prepared to be tested in ways you've never been tested before. I mean, I remember the night before the start of that 2010-11 Ashes not sleeping for one moment. Just things going through my mind, you know, what's going to happen here? what's the first ball going to be?

What am I going to do at the toss? What happens if this happens? Blah, blah, blah. You know, just, and I was a great sleeper. I would never normally do that. And so you've got to be prepared to go quite deep within yourself and ask yourself some fundamental questions of, do I really want this?

Because it's a bit like a, you know, a boxing match. You've got to go and say this is going to be, at times, it's going to feel like war. And either I'm up for it or I'm not. and most England captains will come up with the answer I'm up for it and then they need to lead the team through that. My advice would be prepare yourself for

six weeks or seven weeks where you do feel the caution but you do feel the pressure more than you've ever done but to me it was just one opportunity one opportunity you have to win the ashes and become an ashes winning captain and always have that at the back of your mind there's you know you get the opportunity to do it

and if you do it you can join the lights like yourself and Andrew Strauss was actually winning captains. Michael, what would your advice be to Joe Root? Be clear with your tactics. Try and set out your plan early to your team. Enjoy it as much as you can and win. Simple. Do you think he's going to be standing there at the Oval

in the middle of September with that little, that little replica earn? Yes, I do. I think England on home shores should have too much quality. I've said it for a few years, though, that I do believe Australia are closer to winning here than we are to winning in Australia.

So they've got to be prepared to play tough. They've got to prepare to go through some hard yards. And the batsmen have got to learn how to play the moving ball because it's going to be moving around all summer. Michael, thank you. You'll hear a lot more from Michael Vaughn on this podcast throughout The Ashes. There'll be a new episode every day of the series. And if you're in the UK, you can listen to every ball on Five Live Sports Extra

or via the BBC Sport website and app where you can watch highlights during the match. This is the TMS podcast. The Ashes.