Test Match Special - IPL Pod Ep 4: Tendulkar junior, Curran the Captain and Bairstow believes

Episode Date: April 21, 2023

Simon Mann is joined by IPL commentator Nikesh Rughani and former IPL player Ravi Bopara to reflect on the latest talking points from the Indian Premier League. Arjun Tendulkar, the son of legendary Sachin, finally making his debut for Mumbai, Sam Curran leading the Punjab Kings and KL Rahul facing criticism for being boring. Plus Jonny Bairstow is on the podcast discussing the benefits of playing in the IPL and updating us on his comeback from injury.

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We'll get into the who's and the what-nots later on in the checker flag podcast. Get analysis and reaction with the checkered flag podcast. Listen on BBC Sounds. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Simon Mann. and welcome to our latest podcast reflecting on another lively few days in the Indian Premier League. IPL Cricket on five sports extra. Siraj steams in once more and he's knocked his leg stump out of the ground.

Wasn't looking to play an attacking shot there Ellis. Just looking to block it or maybe flick it into the leg side. And again, that extra pace, quick, full delivery, and a beautiful sight for any fast bowler. Fourth wicket for Mohamed Siraj. As Argentine Dahlka comes into bold, this, the fifth ball. Across his crease, Bhuvneeshwar Kumar can only skew this out to extra cover, and that's the win. Argentine Dorka, huge smile on his face. And Argentendorka, the son of the great Satchin Tendorca, with his father watching on,

completes the victory for the Mumbai Indians. He's into Roy this time, he down the track and smash him. Sashing this high up into the air, down the ground. It's gone way up into the stand there. Huge six from Jason Roy. Well, you can check out our IPL live coverage on Five Sports Extra and BBC Sounds. Now to discuss the latest talking points from the tournament,

I'm joined by two members of our commentary team, Nikesh Raghani and former IPL player Ravi Bopara. IPL Cricket on Five Sports Extra. Nikesh, in a way, one of the stories of the week has been Arjun Tendulka's debut in the IPL. Okay, he's not a massive impact. He's taken a wicket, but you think about it, it must be so difficult to be the cricketing son of Sashin Tendulka. Or tell me differently, perhaps it's straightforward to be the cricketing son of Sassian Tendulka. Well, obviously, you're carrying that name on the back of your shirt, and with that comes a great weight of expectation.

I think the one thing that saves Arjun Tendulka from a little bit of that is that. the fact that he's a left-arm seamer. He's not a top-order batter. If he was a batter, then you'd inevitably get all the comparisons from early on. But he's been a budding cricketer for many years. He's 23 years old now. Came up through the Mumbai system in the age groups. Played for the MCC young cricketers as well. Such in Tendorka has got a very nice flat near Regents Park near Lord's Cricket ground as well. Spends a lot of the English summers over here getting some peace and quiet as well. So Arjun used to come over with him and do his training. at Lords with the MCC Academy as well.

So always been a budding cricketer, has been a net bowler against touring sides when they come and play at Lords as well. And look, it's great to see his journey. He's actually left Mumbai now. He plays first class cricket for Goa. And I think that has done him the world of good, just getting out of his father's shadow a little bit

and going and freeing himself up, living away from home. And he's come and he's done pretty well. I mean, he's got figures of none for 17, one for 18. A tendulka finally has an IPL wicket. was the famous line when he took that wicket. Satchen has bowled in the IPL, by the way,

but wasn't very successful towards the back end of his career. And look, he bowled well at the death against the sunrises as well. They were defending 20 runs off that final over. So, you know, a lot of runs to play with, yes, but he only conceded four or five. He took a wicket. He got his yorkers in. And it's been an encouraging start so far.

And it's good to see that in a way his father is there as a mentor for the Mumbai Indians, the team he plays for. and that's good to have that support. But he's also his own man now. You can see that in the way people talk about him, the way his teammates treat him as well. He's not just the son of Sachin Tendulka. Now he's a fully-fledged first-class cricketer

and he's now an IPL player. I wonder if it helps, though, to be the son of Sassian Tendulke. I mean, it might be quite difficult to drop him. I don't know how, I wonder what that dynamic is like in a team setup and the IPL. Or is it pretty ruthless, Ravi. I think it certainly helps him. I don't know about the team dynamics in Mumbai or whether he gets,

but I reckon it's certainly helped him through his younger years in getting opportunities to play in England, where he's been a net bowler and all that sort of stuff, and just getting access and open doors to getting opportunities. It would definitely have helped being the son of. In terms of team dynamics, they're getting dropped. If you're Tenduka's son, I think they're pretty ruthless. And I think Satchan will be the first.

to come to the meeting and say, hey, he can't play. If he's not performing, he can't play. That's the way the game goes. And, you know, you treat everybody the same. Yeah, he was picked up last season for the Mumbai Indians. Didn't play a single game, was just a bench warmer. So, you know, he was 22 years old. He was playing first class cricket,

but just wasn't deemed good enough or ready enough to be in the team at that stage. So, yeah, I think you're absolutely right. They've got to be ruthless. They're a winning franchise. We've won it more times than anybody else. and, yeah, they can't be doing favours like that. I noticed, though, although he is a left-arm pace bowler,

he did make a first-class 100 last December against Rajasthan in the game, he made a 120. Let's move on. Let's talk about another cricket who's also quite a big name in Indian cricket, and that's Kael Rahul. Kevin Peterson the other day, saying on the television commentary, he basically just cannot stand watching K.L. Rahul back in the power play. and this is a well-established player.

Can Keil Rahul continue to play the way he plays? You've got the stats there, Nikesh. Yeah, I mean, look, this season, six matches, six innings, 194 runs, average of 32, which shows he's scoring runs on a consistent basis, strike rate. That's always been the issue with him over the last three or four years,

particularly in the IPL, also in India colours 114.7.9. And you look at the top 15 runs. scorers so far in this season's IPL, by far the lowest strike rate. In fact, David Warner's actually not too far off. He's number two in the run scoring chart, striking rate of 120. Everybody else in the top 15 has got a strike rate of 140 or above, in some cases, even close to 180. So it shows the massive gulf in the impact that a lot of these players are having in the power play. And it's, look, you've got to get your teams off to a start. You've got to attack the

power play. And I don't know whether or not the captaincy is weighing on his shoulder. and he's thinking he has to play this more responsible game at the top of the order but it's been a problem for three or four years the runs are always there but like the other night 39 off 32 is that doing your team more harm than good how do you see it Ravi

I can't disagree with KP you know he's pretty harsh with these words when he you know he means him and puts him out there but he is pretty dull to watch in the in the power play I feel that he's probably trying to do everything too correctly

he's trying to play the perfect cover drive of the perfect back foot drive, the perfect pull shot which doesn't exist in this game your purpose is to go and score runs as quickly as you can in the lowest risk manner that you can possibly do for your game and I just feel there's so many things going through his head

I think he just wants to be the perfect batsman and so many I think he has too many technical thoughts and forgets about what the actual job is to do the job is to win the game of cricket and score as many runs as you can as quickly as you can and give your team the best opportunity to win I think that's where I've played with him

and so I know him and he is that type of character he has that sort of character where he's a perfectionist and which could be getting in the way of him because he's got all the shots every single shot he's got he just needs to express him

and he needs to dominate a little bit more how easy or otherwise is that to do though to change your approach I mean presumably you'll try and shut all that noise off but it's very difficult to avoid it all I mean when someone like Kevin Peterson says watching Kael Rahul bat in the power plate is the most boring thing I've ever done I mean I'd be surprised if that quote hasn't got through to him or at least you know he's been made aware of it it would definitely have got through to him

somewhere because there's so much news in India everything's about cricket every news channel is talking about cricket every channel's talking about cricket every channel's talking about cricket and if he if kp says that about k or roll it will be all over the place so he would have seen that but how difficult is to change your approach from from my own personal experience i grew up on a diet of redball cricket you know through my youth having to change into a t20 cricketer it took a long time to put no value on your wicket because you grow up if you score a 30

you know I've not I haven't done anything I only scored 30 runs but in T20 cricket if you score 30 or 15 balls or 20 balls or whatever you've done well it's a good day out

but it's this hard to accept as someone who's come up on a diet of four day cricket where your mindset is to score hundreds you want hundreds you want big hundreds and changing that mindset is tough it takes a long time

it just you know you have to flip it at some stage I feel like I've only flipped it recently it's taken that long for me to go nut actually How did you do that? For me it was actually when I first went and played T-10 T-10 cricket really made me realize that Because there is no value on your wicket in T-10

Absolutely none Because it's only 10 overs, you've got five batters you can bat And the sixth batter can bat as well You know, there's just no point putting value on your wicket Also not getting into certain teams that made me think oh hold on

maybe I just need to slug a little bit because I saw other cricketers who were able because they may not have scored any runs

but because they hit a six out of the 10 runs that they scored they're more likely to get picked which then sort of

I sat in my room and the one there's a home and I was thinking actually you know what you're just got to have the intent they're more likely

you're more likely to get into a team if you have intent i've seen people go through a whole tournament not scoring the run but because they had great intent um they were picked which goes against my philosophy a little bit because you still got score runs at the end of the day you can have all the intent in the world but if you can't score any runs you useless to anyone uh but then i just said to myself actually you you can do that and you can score runs at the same time because you're a better player um so that was kind of the flip for me the only problem I find is generally most of time, if you're the player that the team sees you as

the most adaptable player, so you can go in any situation. So they will send you in at the end when you need to go at 10, 12 and over. They'll send you in if you're in trouble to go and knock it around. If they see you as that type of player, then you've got responsibility. And that is what brings your strike crates down because you're going to have days where you think, okay, I've got to rebuild my responsibility they want me to rebuild and then you know you try to rebuild you get 15 or 15 and then suddenly get out and that's what brings your strike rates down and those sort of things but if you're if sometimes you just got to go no actually i'm only going to play one way my way i don't care if we're 30 for five i'm still going to try whack it and if if i get out

and we're 30 for six you got to almost go it's not my fault you've got to have that attitude i know it's a care careless attitude but that's probably the only way to do it in today's world. I think when you're talking about Kail Rahul as well, he's 31 years old, so he's not a young man anymore. I think the perception in India still is, or certainly was, up until very recently, that he's a young

guy, he's got lots of talent, lots of potential. But 31 years old, he's the same age as Joe Root. He was in the same under 19 World Cup as somebody like a Joe Root. Of course, not everybody can go on and have the success that Joe Root has had in international cricket. But even when he's in India colours, he's

been given that real long rope because of of the potential, because of the talent in inverted commas. Do you get to a stage, Ravi? You talked about adaptability there where you've just got to concentrate on one or two formats. You might not be a star in all three formats. And you've got to accept that at some stage. Is that a situation you can see maybe happening with K.L. Rahul somewhere down the line? Yes, possibly.

At some stage, he's got to go, right, what am I? Am I going to focus on Red Bull cricket and try being the best test bats and I can possibly be? or am I going to be the best white ball player I can possibly be and be one of the most dangerous openers in the world? He's got to make that decision at some stage and just flip it at the... Because the way he's going at the moment,

it's dull cricket. It is painful to watch at times. You know, he plays a proper forward defence in the first six overs. Even in the fourth over, he might play a proper forward defence that you'll see in test cricket. And you should never be playing a forward defence,

really, after your first or second. second ball. You mentioned Joe Root there. Let's just move on to Root. Now, Rajasthan Roy has lost a relatively low scoring game the other day on a tricky pitch in Jaipur. It's the first time they played in Jaipur four years, you know, all the reasons we know COVID, etc. And the fact, the tournament was moved elsewhere. Is it time for Rajasthan Royal to just tweak things a bit? He's not played a single game route to tweak things a bit and play Root on a trickier pitch in Jaipo, if indeed it is going to, you know, if they look at the service and say, actually, that this is going to be a low-scoring game today.

One of the problems they've got potentially, obviously you're not going to leave out Joss Butler. They're not going to leave out Butler. Hepmeyer's been really good for them. Trent Bolt's been really good for them. The person to make way would be Jason Holder. So does that upset the balance of the team? What do you think about that?

Is it time to play, Root? Well, look, it'll be great to see him. I think he's a much underrated T20 batter. He's kind of been pigeonholed now as this great test cricket this great ODI player. He's been out of the England T20 side, but he was top scorer in the 2016 World Cup. It wasn't that long ago.

He's still got all the shots. You see it in test cricket, the reverse ramps and all this kind of stuff comes out. He's got the ability to score at will and just knock it around and almost get to 30 or 40 without you realizing. So he has got that real ability to score quickly and put the bowlers on the back foot.

I think the way the pitch is there, like you mentioned, in Japur as well, I think it would suit Joe Root's game. I think the big problem they've got, and they've had this for a few years, the Rajasthan Royals, who do you leave out? Because you're right, Jason Holder would be the obvious one that you'd say, all right, maybe he has to make way.

But Jason Holder can win you a game with the bat. He can hit Monster Sixes. He can play the sensible game as well if you need to rebuild in innings. And he can win you the game with the ball. He's very difficult to score off, always takes crucial wickets. And he's that all-rounder in the middle of the side. So have they just gone with the wrong? of combination with their overseas players because it's difficult to see where Joe Root fits in and who makes way.

Yeah, I agree. Look, it's going to be difficult for him to get in because you can't play him ahead of Just Butler. And for me, he's more there as a cover. If something happens to Butler, then he comes in and replaces him. Otherwise, anything apart from that does upset the balance of the team. The only other way they can go is if they want to add a batter and bring in a local bowler. So Trent Bolt misses out. The local bowler comes in. Trent Bolt goes out and then Joe Root comes in as a batter, overseas batter, to replace Bolt. So that's the only way really for him to get in. So it is going to be difficult to be honest, unless they qualify well ahead and they say, actually, we want to give the guys on the bench a game because you never know that it might come up in the quarterfinals where there's some injuries and these guys need some game time. Well, Magistam Rorza won four of their six matches so far. They did look the other day. It was crying out for a technician like route to take them home. But that was only one game and one surface.

So it depends on the surfaces that they're going to be playing on in the future. And they've met a good start to the competition they are right up there last season's finalists. We'll hear more from Nikeshragani and Ravi Bopara after this. Match of the Day. Top Ten Podcast. The Match of the Day Top Ten podcast is back. Bates, bigger topics and bigger laughs from this man. Yes, Micah Richards is back, along with myself and Alan Shearer for series 8 of Match of the Day

Top 10. Only on the BBC Eye Player and BBC Sounds, where if you subscribe now, you'll find the rest of our box sets to listen to. The Match of the Day Top 10 podcast. Listen only on BBC Sounds. The Dakar Rally is the ultimate off-road challenge, perfect for the The Ultimate Defender, the high-performance Defender Octa, 626 horsepower twin turbo V8 engine and intelligent 6D dynamics air suspension. Learn more at Landrover.ca.

IPL Crickets on five sports extra. Right, one thing we've seen in the last couple of days, we've seen a couple of low scoring games in the IPA. Delhi Capitals are on a spinning pitch or a pitch that help the spinners in Delhi, just about got home to win their. first match the season. They took it to the final over. They were only chasing high

120s and we mentioned that Rajasthan Royals game as well against luck. Now you thought they should win but difficult surface. Now you think Ravi that there should be more difficult surfaces in the IEPLM. Generally speaking, okay, they've been one or two low scoring games

but generally speaking the scores have been quite high. You've got a theory about how the competition should be played. Well, I've been thinking about it in some of the other leagues that I've been to and mentioned it to a couple of people who don't understand it really but as a player

who's played in these leagues I would love to see where the first half of the tournament is on obviously as good a pitches as you can possibly make the groundsmen and whatever and then once you hit halfway through

and everyone's played half of their games you then switch it up and say right we're going to play on more turning wickets now so you know they're going to be prepared in a way where they're going to take turn there may be

a slightly uneven or whatever and we want to test you know I think it's too easy for batters do you I just think it's becoming too

one dimensional sometimes it's boring to watch because you just know what's you know you know what to expect all the time batters get into a little

bit of a rut and they just have a slog and then and to be if I'm being brutally honest it's seeing average players scoring

hundreds or big scores. And, you know, I'm talking to average players, which in my cricketing book shouldn't really happen. I think you need to be a good player to score runs. And I'd love to see more challenging pitches in second half of the tournament or the first half, wherever you want to do it. So that there's an art to batting. And then you, then you will see who the better players and the best players in the world really, really are. You know, those that have real batting skill, real batsmanship

where you can't just stand and slog you're going to have to play different shots you're going to have to find other ways of scoring that's true batsmanship I'd love to see that I don't think it's going to happen because how do you police

how do you police making turning pitches is you know only certain groundsmen are probably capable of doing it or do you then play the second half of the tournament in a particular venue two particular venues which actually do take turn

like Chennai would be won, for example. So you go, right, we're going to play the majority of the games there and somewhere else where also it takes turn and then you're going to play on challenging pitches. And then it brings other players into the tournament. Yeah. What do you think spectators want, though? Do you think they want, we toured a remarkable game at Chinnaswami the other evening

where 228 played about 220. You know, the ball's being flogged everywhere. The crowd, I mean, the noise levels were unbelievable. The engagement was incredible. RCB against Chennai Super Kings do you think the crowd

want that or do you think they like the odd you know Delhi struggle to just get over the line

in the last over with the ball spinning and it being really difficult or do you actually think people want you know

they want a run fest really it's hard to say what they really want unless you train them you can train the the crowd

to enjoying different types of cricket the other day watching Delhi chase down that score that's the most engaged of being watching

a T20 game of cricket in this IPL because the ball was turning it was a little bit difficult to get the ball away batters were struggling spinners were bowling in the 18th over 19th over it's brilliant to watch as most engaged I've been you can train the supporters and the viewers to enjoying lower scoring games if it starts happening and then you can you know you still win it off the last ball it's the same thing it's just a it's just a different it's a different game it's something different to watch. Yeah, I mean, you're right.

You can train an audience in what is engaging and what is exciting. I think it's been it's just been ingrained into people, hasn't it? Since the invention of T20, it's all about runs. Bowlers, you know, are going to struggle, and it's not really a game for the bowlers. And people would rather see 400 plus runs scored in a T20 match than a sort of 130 plays 128 or whatever it was the other night with Delhi. You're right. That was very engaging. You know, we saw Nithish Rana ripping the ball towards the end there,

bowling his full quota of four overs and getting the ball to spin and really making even top-order batters struggle to get him away. But on the flip side, Ravi, you talked about those spinning pitches, but then could it turn an average bowler into somebody like, you know, Nithis Rana bowling the other night of the death? He was as difficult to get away as Lassithmalinga in his prime as well. So then can it sort of elevate the more average bowlers and give them too much assistance really

and make them look like world beaters. Yeah, it can do, but at least you get a fair judgment because then you get them on the flat pitches and they're no good at all. And then you know that they ain't the best of the best. Sunnihan will probably be the best of the best because he'll bowl well on a good pitch,

he'll be well on a pitch that's turning, both. So you know that he's a world beater. So, you know, you get the true value of players. And I'll tell you what it will do is people picking up their squads and making their squads they will have to think about it and say hold on we we could do someone like let's use Nitesh Rana as an example he might

fetch a higher price because they know half the tournament's going to be played on turning pitches so he bats and he's going to offer two or three overs on a tricky wicket he then his his value goes up and becomes a very very important cricketer in that KKR side becomes one of the most important ahead of probably Andre Russell in a way. So, you know, it brings other people into stardom as well.

Well, it's an interesting talking point about what sort of pitch competition like the IPL or indeed any franchise tournament should be played on. How's the substitute rule working? We've seen a couple of interesting instances this week of star players not fielding. Duplice with his injury just batted and it worked out well for his team as well. He made decent runs. and his side won the game. And then Rohit Sharma, not taking the field in the first innings,

despite the fact that he's won by Indians captain and then batting in the second innings of the game. Is this just good flexibility, or is it just sort of pushing the sort of, I know the spirit of the new regulation a little bit? Is it just all, you know, all fair in love and war? I like it. Look, I think it's working well. And I like the fact that the captain can take out two teams at the toss

and depending on whether you're bowling or batting first. you can then name your team. So that takes the sort of winning the toss a little bit out of the equation as well because a lot of times in the IPL in season's gone by at certain grounds, at certain venues, particularly when it was being played in the UAE during COVID times, win the toss, win the game was quite a common theme. So I agree with that in terms of being able to name your impact substitutes. We've seen it work on a few occasions.

We've seen it not work on others. You know, your impact sub comes in and gets out for a golden duck and all those types of things. But it just adds more flexibility. And look, if I was to make it as a professional cricketer, this would be the dream. Go and have a bat. Don't have to field. I know we talked about Faf Duplice being one of the great fielders in world cricket and probably enjoys being out there. But he's picked up an injury.

And that allows an injured player to still take part in the match, have the impact as a batter, but then not have to put his body through the rigours of being out in the field and making that injury worse as well. So in terms of that management of those types of little niggles and knocks where you could probably do one thing but not the other, great flexibility. Do you think, Ravi, that there should be substitutions in all cricket? I think you'd test cricket as well, one day internationals, 50 over cricket. Is it time that, you know, it happens in other sports.

It took a while to happen, but lots of other sports have more and more substitutes now. Football has five, for example, didn't used to have any. but Troutman broke his neck in an FA Cup final in the 1950s and wasn't allowed to be substituted that's going back a long way things change. Is it time for that? I think... Not in test cricket, I don't think.

I think test cricket is a test of your longevity over the five days. So it kind of defeat the object of test cricket. And I think it's fine in 2020. It's absolutely fine to do something. It's just a novelty, really. if we're being brutally honest it's not going to change cricket

that much to be honest it's more of a novelty just to keep people more interested and talk about it's a topic isn't it it's just a topic for people to talk about it doesn't actually change the cricket that much if we're being brutally honest

but yeah it's for me personally I don't pay that much attention to it it's just a novelty okay fine and I suppose lots of leagues just come up with different things don't they to try and I don't know to test the the sides a bit, yeah, keep the spectator interest going as well.

You know, what's going to happen tonight? Who's going to be subbed in? Who's going to be subbed off? Talking about substitutions, Sam Curran, sort of subbed in as captain of Punjab at the age of 24. We worked it out. We reckon there's been over 20 overseas captains in the history of the IPL, around about 25. And we reckon Sam Curran is the youngest, and he's won one and lost one so far. in his time.

But what does that say about Kouran? He was a very expensive player, wasn't he, in the IPA? What does that say about Sam Kouran? It's amazing cricketer, really. I mean, making his debut at 16 for Surrey. It's a fantastic achievement for him to do that. It's a great story. And the fact that he sort of came to prominence in England colour,

certainly as a test cricketer in 2018, making his debut against Pakistan. I was there for that and did really well against the Indians who toured later on in the summer. and the fact he's reinvented himself as this white ball superstar, the most expensive ever overseas signing at an IPL auction, just shows the value that is placed on him now. He did so well in the last T20 World Cup as well,

player of the tournament for England as they won that. And look, even when he was at the Chennai Super Kings under the tutelage of M. Estoni, you could see that extra responsibility that he had. He was there as part of the senior leadership group making decisions on the field. He was given responsibility as a player. as, you know, one of these senior players.

He was only 22 at the time, I think it was, when he was at Chennai Superkings. So from a very early age, he's clearly had that cricketing brain. It's been picked up by, you know, the likes of M. Estonia and people in the IPL and these owners and coaches are all aware that this guy is, he's got something about him. So the fact he's been trusted isn't a great surprise to me, just because of the way he's always been perceived as this brilliant cricketer first and foremost, but always been seen, even as a young man, as one of the senior players of the side.

I think what it says about him is they think he's probably their best player. Generally, you want your captain to be your best player because your best player has to perform, then the team follows and wants to play for that captain, or one of the best players. So it says that about him. I think it's a great opportunity and great experience for him at this age to captain on that level.

because he'll be looking at the future or for Sarri or whoever he ends up playing for. England maybe as a captain, a long-term captain. It's a great experience for him. Whether he's ready for it, whether he's going to make the right decisions more often than not. At this, it's questionable. He's going to get things wrong, which is fine. You're allowed to get things wrong. You've got to risk getting things wrong to get them right.

So I think it's a great experience for him. I think he's going to love it and he's going to learn a lot from it. Final point, Jason Roy and Phil Salt got their first games this week. They've had to hang around a bit. Ben Stokes and Joffar Archer have been hanging around a lot.

They've been injured. They're not playing. What's it like if you're in the IPL? Long way from home, Ravi, and you're not playing. At the IPL, if you paid that much money, I promise you, you probably don't even care

because there'll be, they're still getting paid. Do they lose money if they don't get paid? They're paid? Look, from what I remember, for every game you don't play, you probably lose about 20% because it's pro rata.

So if I'll give you an example, if you're on 100 grand, it's 10 games, you're on 10 grand a game, you lose 20% of that 10 grand. Which, okay, it's a little bit of a blow losing that 20%,

but you haven't earned it if you're not playing. So you're still getting paid 80% of it for sitting on the bench. It's a long time to sit, on the bench. I know it's difficult, but you're getting paid for being there. Don't let anybody tell you that going to the IPO is not about the money. It is about the money. If the IPO was paying you what the counties are paying you, none of these boys would go. It's not about going to play IPO and it's the best league in the world and all that. If they're paying you what the

counties are paying, nobody will go. I can tell you that right now. It's the money. And if they're sitting on the bench and getting paid that money, then I think majority of them will be all right with it. If they're going to a league where there's nowhere near that type of money, you're playing on the lower tier cash, and then you're not playing, you're on the bench. That's more difficult to take because you can't get your value up sitting on the bench. Your value goes up just being picked in the IPO,

even if you go there and sit on the bench for the whole time, even if you have a bad tournament, your value has still gone up in the other leagues. The other leagues want you now because you've played IPO, your name's associated with IPL. So, I mean, trust me. A lot of it's about the money. A brutal assessment to finish there. IPL cricket on five sports extra.

Well, thanks to Ravi and to Nikesh. So plenty of England names involved in this season's IPL, but one of those missing is Johnny Baxter, who was due to be playing for the Punjab Kings. He pulled out of the tournament to concentrate on his recovery, from injury ahead of the test summer. Berto enjoyed an amazing summer last year and his performance in the test match against India at Edgberston

where he scored two centuries has been celebrated this week with Berstow being presented with the Wisden Trophy, a new prize marking the test performance of the year. Yeah, it's obviously the first year that the award's been in place so to be the inaugural winner is very special for me. It's naturally something that you want to be put up for and it means it's contributed to a few special memories to have had with the boys.

I mean, you're underplaying it slightly two centuries in what was an epic test against India. I mean, talk me through that. Where did that come from? Yeah, well, it was obviously disjointed. That game had to be postponed and then played last summer. And it was a case of, look, let's reset. We were playing a different brand of cricket. India came over, yeah, and played really, really well, to be really honest with you.

we were under periods of pressure for a long period of time but we looked to counteract that with a few different things that we'd gone out to try and do throughout the summer you were in some form won't you and then all of a sudden the injury how's the recovery going yeah it's going really well thanks yeah going really well everything's going to plan so far it was naturally a freak incident but look that's part and past of life you can be driving a car and then have an instant there. You can be crossing the road, have an incident there. Unfortunately, it was one of those things that happened on the golf course.

But the good news is that we're nearing the end of hopefully recovery process. And look, we see the ground behind here now, and I can't wait to hopefully be back out there very soon. Well, you're leading me into my next question nicely, Johnny. When can we expect that? Yeah, hopefully in the next few weeks. Yeah, absolutely. there's a couple of bits to do

there's a couple of eyes to dot and teased across but yeah it should be there or thereabouts and I can't wait to do it we've had an interesting few months it's not been easy at all it's been my first long-term injury over however many years that I've now been playing and just dealing with that

itself has been tricky at times but look we get through that and it's all about this summer it's going to be a really exciting spectacle so look it's imminent we're not far away and things will be tracking in the right direction you mentioned it's your first long-term injury you say things were tricky you're a positive person how was it psychologically you know mentally for you yeah it's been tricky it has been tricky that's exactly what I mean it's it's not nice when you're when you're not able to do the thing that you're used to doing when you've been away travelling and playing the game

for 14 years consecutively travelling around the world. You're not sure what to do with yourself. I'm not someone that's a massive gamer or anything like that. So when you've got your foot in a cast or in a boot and you're not able to just go for a little jog, it's an interesting time. So look, it's character building, we'll say it's that. Character building and when you come through it,

it's not the first hurdle in the road and the journey. it's one that's further down the line and it's definitely a story at some point to hopefully tell some grandkids I mean you say a couple of weeks or a few weeks you might be back so people will be thinking where could that fall in their heads

we've got England's first test not too far away potentially be available for that one yeah I will be available yeah absolutely so I'm definitely on the right track and I can't give too much away we've not decided definitely as to what's actually going to happen over the next couple of weeks.

But, yeah, as I say, it's going to be great, and I can't wait to get back out there. Well, tell me as much or little as you can. Obviously, there's been reports that when you start playing, you might be picking up the gloves. So what's the thinking behind that one, if it's accurate? Well, why wouldn't I? That's all I've ever done for Yorkshire. It's kind of a non-story, to be honest with. I've played for Yorkshire I've kept wicket so yeah and will that be the same for

England do you think obviously a hard idea when it comes to England I've got no idea but for the last however many years since I made my debut for Yorkshire every time I've played I've tended to keep wicket so I think it's a it's a bit of a non-story to manage with you because it balances out the team nicely and that's all I've ever done when I've represented Yorkshire let's have a quick chat about Ben Stokes obviously the big winner tonight and third in four four years What's he like as a man to play with? No, he's obviously captivated everyone.

It's fantastic to have something like Ben at the helm, the clarity that he's had, especially since he's coming as captain. It's a new role for him. He hasn't necessarily captained a lot, but to be able to come in, obviously, with Brendan as well, and have a different approach to it in many ways and take an approach in which we're able to go,

out and just flourish, rather than worrying about the consequence of maybe nicking off or getting bold or whatever it is. We're out there to win games cricket. We're out there to score runs in whatever way possible. The bowlers are out there to take 20 wickets to round win a test match and just stripping things back to the simplicity rather than a lot of other bits as being key. Obviously, we're celebrating test cricket today. Have you been watching the IPL?

What are your kind of thoughts on the rise of T20 cricket and going to? forward? Look, I think that the IPL is obviously an amazing spectacle. The league is the best of the best. That's just how it is. And you look at the caliber of players that are playing in the league. You don't have to be a genius to work out when you're chasing down 220 and the scores are going up and the strike crates are going up. That's massively improving and will continue to do so and what aspects it keeps creating. I think it's also a platform for people that haven't necessarily been over there before to improve the game because they're coming up against challenges that they won't have had before, but also the experience of playing

in front of 50, 60, 80, 100,000 people is something that you can't quite imagine in some ways, so therefore the experiences that you gain from that, when you then come into the big pressure environments, we're obviously going there for the World Cup at the end of the year, I think will be invaluable. That was Johnny Birsto with Matt Gravelling. Our IPL coverage continues on Five Sports Extra and BBC Sounds. And don't forget, you can also follow every ball of every county match via the BBC Sport website and app.

Check out BBC Sounds for more podcasts, including a new episode of the award-winning no balls with Kate Cross and Alex Hartley, Stumped marking the 50th birthday of Sassin Tendulka, and Tail Enders with Greg James, Felix White and Jimmy Anderson. So Jim, congratulations. A shed load of wickets. He got Alice to cook twice. Nice to be back.

A bit of a frustrating week, the weather was pretty average. But overall, yeah, good week. Got Alice to cook out twice. He didn't think he was out either time. Keeps texting me about it. Which makes it even more sweeter for me, to be honest. He keeps texting you about it. What, he can't get it out of his head.

Bearing in mind, it's now Monday morning. The game finished yesterday. I got him out for the second time yesterday. and we got back at like midnight last night on the bus it was painful journey home he sent me a picture of a still of the ball just about to hit he said it's just about to hit his pad

I've said that's after it hit you absolutely dead no it wasn't that's just before it hit me so I said okay I'll get them to knock a wicket off my tally and give you an extra knot out then and he was like yes please and a public apology for excessive appealing so that's where our conversation's out of the minute.

So good. What do you think, are they out? Do you think they're both dead? Close enough. You know, I've had close ones that have been given not out and I've been some that might not be hitting that have been given out. You know, it's the nature of the game and everyone understands that. Unfortunately, for cookie, being a good friend, he's not going to live it down.

everyone understands it apart of master cook it seems yeah tail enders much more than just a cricket podcast loosely cricket based meaning we very rarely talk about world cricket yes but when we need to

we can do boy can we deliver as England's greatest ever bowler you don't need to do this podcast but why do you welcome seven Tell Enders, a Lucy Cricket base. Thank you, Houselan's, Lucy Cricket Base.

With podcast from me, Chief Force, him, Felix White, him, Jimmy Anderson, Matching Tendorke, Distantly. Tail Enders. Listen on BBC Sounds.