Test Match Special - Is County Cricket fit for purpose?

Episode Date: April 4, 2022

Kevin Howells is joined by two former England coaches, Paul Farbrace and Peter Moores, who are now involved back in the County game. They look ahead to the domestic season and ask if Championship cricket should be getting the criticism it is receiving because of the failures of the England Test team.And Kevin is joined by fellow commentators Nikesh Rughani, Mark Church and Emily Windsor to find out which teams will be challenging this season in the men’s and women’s game.

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from BBC Radio 5 Live. Hello there, quick get-together on a TMS podcast on the eve of a brand new county cricket season and get every ball of every game. You can find commentary on the BBC Sport app and website. Delighted and privileged, I reckon, to say we've got two brilliant guests with us and another few. I'll introduce in a few moments' time. But Paul Farbrace and Peter Moores are with us.

We're going to try and bottom out by so many high-profile players of the past. now want to bring about major change to the system which actually gave them the opportunities it did so we'll be looking at why was it so good for them isn't so good now in other words another kick-in really for county cricket because England interfered so badly men's cricket in the winter is that right

we'll explore that in a few moments' time our colleague Nikesh Raghani joined us to reflect on the fallout and much needed progress to the domestic game which is needed in light of the Azing Rufik investigation also Nikesh is an ambassador for Leicestershire what would the future look like for them in a shiny, elite world of cricket. Emily Windsor is back to talk on men's cricket and the women's schedule this summer.

And with a nod to Kevin Peterson, we need someone in the riff-raff corner. Churchy? It's what to start. Our poster, pin-up boy, and he's had his hair cut specially, looking good, Cherokee. You are looking really good for a new season. No, Scott Reid. No Scott Reid for this one. His management company have issued a statement.

They say he'll be back. He is the BBC man with Lancashire this summer and he will return to the band a little later on in the season. Paul Farbrace, cricket director with Warwickshire, of course. Peter Moore's head coach with Nottinghamshire, I don't need to tell you, both heavily involved

with coaching England at various points as well. It seems as though the battering that county cricket has taken this winter has been worse than any other. Paul Farbrace? yeah i think it has um kevin and it's uh i think it's a great shame you know i'm a massive fan of the of the county game um you know and as you mentioned both peter and i have been involved on the other side of the fence and we know what happens when um england team are not successful

and the finger gets pointed pointed at county cricket i think on too often and two regular bases i think we've all got a responsibility though i think the whole game has a responsibility and I think all of us need to take that responsibility seriously because we should all have, I think in County Creek we should all have the same goals which is to produce and develop players to play for England and for your county and also to win trophies for your county and the two should be able to go hand in hand

but at the moment it seems as though there's a lot of finger pointing at country and I think it is on the whole I think it is unfair and unjust. But England have lost four. consecutive series, the one of the last 17 test matches, the worst record since the 1980s. It's not a great reflection on county cricket, so there must be something that's not right, Peter Moore's. Well, I mean, it's an interesting one for me because county cricket needs to reflect the best stand and we know that. But the moment, the fact that England haven't done as well, it's going to be a multitude of factors and it's not just county

cricket. So we need to play on good pitches, but when people say the pitches aren't good, they vary. I don't think county cricket has particularly changed hugely over the years. If I'm totally honest, it improves in certain areas. It has certain years like last year when we might have had COVID restrictions, with the conferences because of that. But I don't think that's the reason England aren't doing well. There's other factors at play here.

And that to me is they've had quite a few injuries to their bowlers. They've obviously decided to leave out Broaden Anderson. and which was a huge decision before that last series. But also there's a network of support systems around that England team of which they've taken away over the last two to three years, which county cricket has always operated and needed support. So where we are now, to me, doesn't feel dissimilar to where we were maybe 20 years ago when certain things were put in place and then have been taken away.

And they were there to support players to make this transition between a county player to an international player, which is always going to be a big jump. What's been taken away then? Well, Loughborough, for instance. Loughborough was, basically, we put Luffer in place to try and mirror the Australian Academy, which was centralising talent. Rod Marsh came over and set it up. I followed Rod into that.

But that whole idea was to try and give a tier between. There was a Pace programme that Kevin Shireman that I think is gone. So there's certain things that have gone away from that system. What they decide to do with that, that's up to them. County cricket has also changed because we're now back to four. competitions we had three um so there's quite a few changes gone on kevin over the last few years not just about pitches um there's much more whiteball cricket than they ever has been well there's a lot of factors in that that that aren't quite so straightforward as saying that

you know it's just county cricket there's been decisions made i think by the ECB themselves which will have an influence on how we produce players and the sort of players we produced i'm tempted to say there's an elephant in the room and to be honest with you with me post Christmas, there's two elephants in the room, and I'm working on that myself for the next few months and getting rid of that. But Paul Farbrace, if we are going to talk about this properly, we have to acknowledge, don't we, that to look back and say, well, County Cricket has done this and it's done that, Bringland in the past, it'll do it again. It's a different world now. You've got T20 global franchise competitions, left right and centre.

I mean, you know, I've just looked at some of the signings. We'll talk about them possibly a little bit later on. We've still got quality players coming from overseas, but it's not the same, is it? No, look, well, I mean, I'd like to go back to Pete's point there. I think Pete's absolutely right. The changes that have gone away from the support around the England team. No Lions cricket, in effect, really, for the last couple of years, I think is detrimental.

You know, that bridging gap between county cricket and international cricket, it's a massive gap. Regardless of the era, regardless of, where country cricket's at, that's a big gap. And, you know, people tell you, I mean, you know, picking people to play for England, there's always that element of unknown, because you're not quite sure. And that lion's gap, not only is it good for players, it's good for coaches. There's been a lot of coaches who have done a good job at Lyons level,

and it's enabled them to develop their career and progress as well. So it's not just about the players. But I think that the area of where county cricket has probably changed the most in the last 10 years, suddenly when Pete and I started playing, your only source of income as a professional cricket was through your county contract. And if you wanted to earn more, you had to play for England. In fact, now you can earn just as much as your county contract and more by playing franchise cricket around the world. I was at the T-10 tournament in Abu Dhabi before Christmas. Pete's been to the PSL just recently. And, you know, there is an awful lot

of English cricketers now playing in these tournaments around the world, which is reflective of the fact that England, between 2015-19, the two different World Cups, you know, England started playing good cricket, started winning games, and therefore more players got selected to go and play in the franchise tournaments around the world. And we saw last summer against Pakistan, we could virtually put out a third 11 now as an England cricket team in Whiteball cricket and beat most teams in the world. There's no doubt we proved that last year. 19 players were brought together, 24 hours notice, beat a strong Pakistan team,

3-0 played really good cricket in that competition. When it comes to test match cricket, we haven't got that depth to our game at the moment. We haven't got necessarily the amount of high-quality players, I think, could go into the Red Bull side. Yeah, but when you've got people, and I'm not going to name it, being a notable people who are saying, look, they think test cricket's going to be dead in 10 years' time.

Surely those people that love Red Bull cricket, they're going to fight tooth and nail to try and keep all of it. But isn't there a reality that on the international stage, Test cricket is becoming less and less important, therefore, surely the domestic game will have to reflect that, won't it? In terms of its size? I'm not sure.

I mean, test match cricket is, English people get a very different view and people will be able to, you know, he'll be able to confirm this. When you travel around the world, England gets supported brilliantly home in a way, get fantastic supporters. All our test matches at home,

pretty much we sell out most days. Test match cricket around the world, he's played in front of 150, 200 people in some cases. You know, you've only got to watch South Africa, Bangladesh. over this last few days. I've been involved with Sri Lanka, Indian series in Sri Lanka,

150, 200 people a day watching, but people are watching it on television around the world. One day cricket looks as though it's in far better health because there are more people physically at games watching the game. So we've got to be really careful

how we judge the death of Test match cricket. I don't think Test match could be dead in 10 years. I just think that's nonsense. Yeah, but we're judging it by the fact that, you know, word is, I mean, I don't get to see all these figures necessarily, but word is that the TV broadcast deals are becoming less and less valuable around the world for test cricket.

Therefore, that's what they'll measure it on. Well, maybe so, but I don't look at TV numbers and such. What I look at is the game, and I look at the quality of the game. And what I'm saying is England test matches, we continue to sell out. We don't have any problems selling out. What we have got to do is make sure anything get back to winning ways. We want England to be back to winning ways. And Pete's right, it isn't just about pitches or county cricket or coaching.

It's a whole combination, there's a whole raft of factors that will come together to enable England to get back to be in where they want to be and competing to be number one, number two, number three in the world in test match cricket. We're there in whiteball cricket. Talk about this red ball reset and whatever. Whoever comes in as the director of cricket has got to be very clear how they want England to play test match cricket. And I've said many times, even during the period of Trevor Bayless and Alex to Cook, as captain coach, we never quite worked out how we wanted to play test match cricket. Trevor Bayliss wanted to play with two of the top three being attacking, striking

batters like the Australian side have. But we didn't ever quite get that right. And we haven't got that right for a few years. And losing Australia isn't a new thing. We've only won once there in 32 years. So it's not a new thing losing Australia. Isn't it therefore more embarrassing that we haven't sorted it out yet? Well, a lot of the things that were said at the end of the test matches this time round,

we said last time round at the end of games. We said exactly the Adelaide post-match press conferences were virtually word for word the same as what we said four years ago and that's why I say we all have to take responsibility for that. All of us that are involved in the game, we need to look at it and say

do we really want England to be number one in the world? Does county cricket? Do all of the county clubs really want England to be number one in the world? Or have we got to a stage where actually our county position and our county standing is more important now you know, we're also getting to a stage where instant success is a massive thing.

So county clubs are looking at teams winning, teams playing good cricket at that time. Yeah, this brings us Peter Moore's to the issue of promotion and relegation. That's going to be discussed in, you know, in all sorts of different plans and schedules we see thrown around, and it will get very tedious over the next six months doing this. But when they're throwing around, a lot of discussion will be around whether there should be promotion and relegation within county cricket. And, you know, that certainly comes into play with the pitches,

because I've talked to ground staff. they say, you know, they love their relationships with their coaches, directors of cricket. They think that there will be a more consistent, higher level of pitches, should there not be that need to perhaps win the odd match in a certain way with the odd squad, that sort of thing. So where do you stand on promotion and relegation? Well, come back to the principle of what promotion and relegation came in for. So I think all these decisions are made by what principles do you want to live to,

and what do the ECB want to live to? The first principle of that was to concentrate talent and increase intensity. of the cricket. So put the best players together and make the intensity of cricket throughout the whole season. So whatever system will work, and it has to fulfil that. That's the first thing. Now, two divisional did that. It created really competitive cricket because you're either competing to win the first division or you're scrambling to stay in it because of the relegation system. The only teams that really struggled to get the intensity at the back end of the season was those that were at the bottom of the second division because they

then once they knew they couldn't win it, they couldn't get relegated anywhere else. So that was the basic premise in what it came in for. So to me, that was one of those decisions with a raft of decisions at a time that were brought into trying to improve the England team. Other things were brought in, I mentioned Loughborough and support networks around that. And we went from four comps to three comps to try and make sure the competitions match the global game, that there were T20, 4-day and 50 over cricket. That was a system.

now we've gone away from that I think that's affecting on many levels of different to the England team I think the decision to go back to two divisions was the right one and then the key is that we make that done now if moving forward there's a decision then to try and concentrate talent

a different way by having centres around that people go to to improve facilities and stuff like that that's the decision that the ECB have got to make based on the principles for the best for English cricket and it's got to make sure that if you're not one of those centres that you've got a really clear

system by where you survive and thrive as a county club. Sorry, can I throw Nick Hesh into this in this one? Nick Hesh, as well as being a commentary colleague of ours, was involved as a younger man in the pathway system. I mean, it understands a great understanding of the East Middle, as long with Peter, of course, but in Leicestershire

especially, if they went down that route of elite centres, if they went, I mean, this thing that was thrown up last week went public, I mean, the ECB of distance themselves weren't, but it's a decent platform for us to work from the idea of a Premier League of 12, although you keep the other six teams still as first-class counties

without the chance of being promoted into the Premier League. So this elite system, where do you think it would leave, and this is an important issue. Right now, it should have been for many years, it really is now, communities, cricket communities and youngsters in Leicestershire, for example, in a world which is dominated by elite centres. Yeah, great question. And Kevin, it would have a massive, massive impact,

because it's not the one-size-fits-all approach that is going to work across areas like the East Midlands or many other areas up and down the UK. I mean, you've just got to look at the different makeup of the communities, for example, in Leicester and Leicestershire. Huge South Asian communities have been there for decades and decades since the sort of 1960s in the case of Leicester. And a lot of them play domestic cricket.

If you look at the Leicestershire leagues, you probably see at least. two-thirds of the players from a South Asian background, entire teams, which were traditionally all white, are now all South Asian because they are the only ones who are taking cricket seriously. I think part of the problem that Leicestershire have had in the past is they've not engaged enough with that community,

and we haven't quite seen those players coming through the ranks and making it through to the first team. So that's one issue, but then if you're going to not have them in the elite, you know, yes, there's, the sort of tick box exercise of keeping them as a first-class county. They won't exist in 10 years' time if that's the case. If you have a 12-team elite competition not involving sides like Leicestershire and Derbyshire, they will not exist in 10 years' time.

They will just not be able to have enough talent coming through because they won't have the resources then to be able to go and scout these players. There'll be no ambition, really, from the club cricketers to want to play for Leicestershire. Why would you? If you're not playing in the elite competition, you might go and, try your hand at knots or somewhere like that. So I think it's a massive, massive issue. And, you know, clubs like Leicestershire and Derbyshire don't make a lot of money as it is.

They're not test match grounds. They've had, you know, little success on the field in recent years, although it has to be said in the case of Leicestershire, you know, they won the county championship twice in three years at the back end of the 90s, and then through the early 2000s went and won three 2020 Cups as well. They didn't capitalize on that as a club. English cricket didn't invest in them enough, I don't feel, as well. It's, you know, a bit of blame on both parties there.

But we're not talking about a county that's had no success in its entire history. I mean, hugely successful in the 70s as well. They've got great history, some of these clubs. They, you know, when you think of English cricket and, you know, Leicestershire, David Gower Springs to Mine, you know, all these great players that Leicestershire have had over the years. And the Academy has been successful as well, you know, Stuart Broad, Harry Gurney, all these recent players coming out, and there's so many down the line that the club has produced.

I mean, Peter Moores has probably got half of them up at Trent Bridge at the moment, or certainly has done over the last few years. So that's just what happens. They end up getting pinched. And instead of getting pinched, they won't make it to the first team at Leicestershire anymore. They'll just go around the back door, go for trials at Nottinghamshire. If they're good enough, they'll hopefully get an opportunity there. But as far as Leicestershire and clubs like it are concerned.

So I've got a sorry to interrupt you. I've got to interrupt you. Because if we're talking about these people want an elite world of cricket, you're not saying the necessary that those really good players would be missed. They'd just have to go elsewhere. See, I was wondering whether actually those pathways would be

shut down. Yeah, well there'll be less opportunities weren't there? If you've got only 12 clubs which people have an ambition to play for, and let's face it you call it an elite competition, there's still a lot of work to do to make it elite. Have you got the best overseas players coming. No, you haven't. So the quality

is still got a long way to go and you're going to go from 18 down to 12. There's less opportunities for the good players to make it to that top level. I find it really depressing, Peter, when I hear good people. I mean, very few in this. In fact, I can only think of one. Very few people in this

are not coming at it from a place other than, you know, real genuine concern and wanting to make things better, okay? So if people are coming up, but they say to me there isn't enough talent, which makes it worthy of there being more than 10, 11, 12 teams in this country. I find that so defeatist. Well, I think we've got a lot of talented players.

I mean, at the moment, I think there's more talent, more players around through the academy system than there's ever been. The question is getting through the different tiers. The first real challenge, I think, from a player point of view, is going from being a youth player to a man's player or from a girl's system into the full woman system. because this transition when you play youth cricket or pathway cricket, you're with the best of your age group to then move into playing with maybe somebody who was the top of the 19s player 10 years ago is now experienced at a first class level.

That's a step up as it is moving from being a county player up to international player. And they're the transitions you've got to get right. So they're the things for me. I still go back to where I started from in county cricket and from all that. People migrate to other clubs sometimes for opportunity to improve. And that, to me, is a healthy system. The big clubs, the test match playing clubs have got to produce their own players. They will always be a migration of players in sport because we've encouraged it as a body.

We started to encourage people to move. So their world has changed a lot. So that to me happens. The idea of 18 first class counties geographically sitting around the country or producing players seems a really healthy one. just going to find a way of making that work within our system to make people go on. And, you know, I'll go back to what Farby first said. Every club has got responsibility to produce players, basically for their county, but also to try and give them the opportunity to move on and play for their country.

And that to me is, you know, that is, as a coach for me, I think all the time, I just think you're trying to make people better. And then from that, the good ones. And to do that, you need to create opportunity. And the opportunity comes in so many different ways. it's partly with your county. Sometimes it's a lion's trip. Sometimes it might be going to somewhere like Loughra

where you're suddenly paired with, you know, a young Ben Stokes is paired with a young Chris Wokes and suddenly they find there's two of them both at 18, 19, and they're both good and they push each other to get better. Those sort of systems are how people get better. Now we've got this franchise system which has changed the whole world of cricket

because now a good young player in England could end up spending probably eight to nine months playing white ball cricket and two to three playing red ball. So that has changed the dynamic of how we produce players again, which has to be taken in consideration whatever we do moving forward. Can ask for relatively short answers from you, Paul, and for Peter on this one. Paul Farbrace to start off with, the idea of playing 10 first class matches in a summer. Where does that sit with you? No, I'm with Pete. I think we need to keep all 18 counties. We need to keep as many players playing as possible. I'm with you. I think it's a very defeatist

to say, oh, let's just go down to 12 teams. And, you know, we're absolutely right. We will lose the other clubs. And we can't afford to lose clubs. We can't afford to lose the opportunity for players. We've started looking at players now between the ages of 20 and 23, because we perhaps, we've all, as a game,

we've made decisions on players at a younger age. And we're now seeing that people playing very well in national counties cricket. They're playing very well in club cricket, university cricket, and we need to get those players back into the system. and we've got two or three training with us at the moment in exactly that category. So, no, I want us to keep as many county games as possible and as many county teams as possible. What is that possible then? And we've got 14 of the moment.

I mean, are you accepting there will be a cut in games? No, I think 14. I like 14. Yeah, but do you think there will be a cut? Does your head tell you that that's going to happen? Well, the defeatists and the people that want to make it easier and simpler might want to play less games. I don't. I think we should have 14 and I think the simple easy thing to do is to lose one of the competitions. At the moment for me, 50 over cricket is the most vulnerable and that's

the game that we don't need 50 over cricket in domestic cricket to win the 50 over World Cup. We proved that. The way this argument's going at the moment, it seems as if you're coming up with the reasons that perhaps other things need to be looked at. It still could be the case the ECB could turn around and say we can't afford to do it. It's a money issue. Stuart Broad Peter has said, you know, getting back into the England team is not about me taking wickets in Division 2. Does that not say to us, we play too much cricket, first class cricket?

I think it probably says he's got 500 plus test match wickets already, and they probably know what he can do. I mean, if you want to know what Stuart Broad can do, go and go and watch a bit of archive footage from the last few years. In the last 18 months, he's been one of England's leading wicket takers. So I don't think from that point of view, he's proving that he can be successful at test match level, and if he suddenly gets five and four,

us in any game, be it first or second division, I don't think that's the issue. You know he can handle test match cricket. He's fit and strong, and he wants to play. So that's a decision for the ECB to make. Obviously, they decided not to take into the West Indies great opportunity for others. You can agree or disagree with that. But I think that's the point he's trying to make.

It's hungry to play for his country. I think he's proved that on many times. The other thing we're going to see, and perhaps we need to round this off because there'll be plenty more times. If you will join me later in the summer, maybe to talk about this, but to Paul and Peter again, best practice, okay? Best practice, not just in cricket, but in other sports. Because this actual debate that's going on does exist in other sports.

We're obviously most interested in cricket. Well, I can't imagine that either of you, in fact, I think I'll probably know that both of you look at other sports to pick up best practice and what's going on. What have you learned? Can you start off with you, Fab's on this one to start off with? What can cricket take from other sports in terms of best practice that you think would be a good positive? You're right. We all look at all other sports and we talk to, you know, Pete and I have been

very lucky that because of being involved in high-level sport, in one sport, you get to meet so many other people. We're all having the same conversations, whether that's cricket, football, rugby, squash, tennis, swimming, whatever it might be. We're having the same conversations. How do you, firstly, how do you find the best performers? How do you then coach them and manage them? And the management and the coaching and looking after them is the absolute crux of it. You know, coaching has changed. For when Pete and I first started playing, coaching has changed an awful lot.

You've been talking about coaches being a bit soft, haven't you, in recent weeks? I think as a group, as coaches, I think what we've done is we've allowed players to perhaps cut a few corners. I don't think we've been as strong as we could have been. And I think it's a real

tricky balance. We've seen in recent times two international coaches at the top of their game, one's lost his job because he's perceived to be too strong, and one's lost your job because he's perceived to be not strong enough. Well, there's got to be a balance somewhere along the line. Coaching is about, and Pete said it earlier, why did you coach? You coach to improve players, and sometimes you have to tell them the truth, and it might not be what they want to hear. But you have to do it in a certain way that you can't, you know,

you can't pin people up against the wall and shout at them like he used to do. When I first started playing, that was, you know, coaches told you in no uncertain terms, there was no right reply. Now it's a conversation. Now it's about asking questions. And that would be the one thing I think I've learned, certainly, over the last few years and other sports. I want to talk to both of you before I allow you to leave about the season for both your respective teams. But Peter Moore's, one thing that does upset people

is the idea, you know, we are of a certain generation. The next generation down, these are a generation of players that you've helped bring through the system. I'm not going to name any here, but you've brought through this generation. It seems as if some of those high-profile names of that generation now are the ones

who are demanding not little changes I mean I think of Andrew Strauss right away of course but not demanding small changes but big changes do you in any way look at some of those individuals and feel any disappointment that the system that has developed them and now they're sort of talking in such a tone that actually it's not good enough now I don't look at it like that if I'm honest Kevin

what I look at it is a lot of the comments come from it's whether how much knowledge you have of the county game and of the system everybody's view is with the best interests of England, I think there's a bigger picture here and the big picture is the health of the game in general from grassroots level all the way to the international team and the development of players,

coaches who've coached for a decent length of time will start to know how that works and it's not straightforward. You don't improve just because you tell somebody a pundit will say listen, he needs to leave better, the coach has got to go with that player and do the hard work to fit. How does that fit into his game

without becoming negative. And that's a journey you learn, like learning a musical instrument. It doesn't happen overnight. You've got to put some hard work in. Coaches are enthusiastic with those players. They work with those players. And sometimes they have to make some technical adjustments

to become a better player, the same as a goal forward or somebody else. They have to do something because there is a flaw in their game that will be exposed by the higher level player. And that to me means that coaching is just not a simple thing of saying, go and tell him what he's got to go and do. You have to be honest with a player. So it's never as straightforward as just saying, right, you know, you've got to play straight.

If that was the case, we'd have a lot of very, very good players. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. On to the field of play, and I really do hope that over the next six months, we're going to be able to talk more about that. We'll have to reflect. And it's right. In many cases, we reflect quite a lot of the off-field chat. Well, let's, you know, on-field.

I was looking down the odds with the bookies as to who's going to lift the championship this year. the county championship. And actually, they seem to be going. It's quite time. It seemed to be going with Lancashire. But I was looking at it thinking, if you really did look down these list of squads here, and I reckon Paul Farbriggs would sort of agree with this to a certain extent anyway, you look at that and you think, who's the team that could most likely win the county championship this year? And they most definitely would be Nottinghamshire. Just a small, slight problem that we've got two divisions based on teams of three years ago this summer, which I need to move on from,

and I promise you I will. But I reckon, Peter, one of your big jobs here is being very careful, and with the word you choose, they're saying you're not going to rip up the second division this year. Well, that's the beauty of sport, isn't it? You get no guarantees in sport. We've had obviously a very good season last year. I think, you know, we won a lot of games. We scored a lot of points.

But that doesn't give you any guarantees in sport, and that's why we like watching it. Because if we go into this season with even the slightest bit of complacency that we're going to go on beat teams because it's second division, then we would absolutely get a backside kick. So there'll be none of that here. Our lads have talked about it. We know we've got a job to do. It was, yeah, I think it was quite tough because we played some really good cricket

over the last two years, actually. It was tough in 2020 because we didn't get over the line and we had this extraordinary record. But last year, lads learned and got better and improved. and that obviously was shown on the field. So we've got to take our medicine in the right way, play some really good cricket, I say with no guarantees,

and we start in earnest at Sussex, and that's going to be a tough game, so we'll be up for it. Okay, thank you, Peter. Paul Farbrace, just before we allow you to leave. Matt Mason, may not be the biggest name that people are mentioning, but I want to mention me,

he's coming across, a bit cock-a-hoop with the way things have gone for him in the last few months. He's one of your additions as a coach, of course, people will know him as well as being of Worcestership in years gone by. But, you know, you've brought in some extra players. How do you think you're standing? What have you done to try and make sure you successfully defend your title this year? Well, we set ourselves last year of getting into the top division of Super September from the group stage

just to see where we got to. And it was a really interesting last month of the season. First game at Old Trafford, a draw. Came away thinking we're going, okay. a second game against being at home by Hampshire and it looks as though we've got a lot of work to do. Two games later, you win the county championship. Now, you know, I think,

and the thing that we've installed in everybody since the end of that last game against Somerset is we've got a long way to go. We are by no means the best team in the county championship in terms of consistency. And, you know, I think Nott's, looking at Nott's last year, Hampshire last year, very, very good teams.

I mean, they were the benchmarks for us looking at and saying they're the teams that we've got to beat, we've got to get level when we've got to beat them, and that's still the case to me. That doesn't change, even though Notts in the second division. They are still one of the teams, I think, one of the excellent teams in country cricket. They do things well, they play the game in the right way,

and they're a team that we've learnt a lot from playing against them, and we'll continue to do so. So I think we've set ourselves finishing the top three of this division, and that's our goal. That's not to say we're not trying to win it, of course, but top three is our goal for this year, and that's part of our pathway that we've set ourselves. So we've also got to improve in T20 cricket.

We've got to call the finals last year. We want to go one stage further and get to finals day this year, but so does everybody else. So look, we know we've got a lot of work to do, but we're okay with where we've got to, but only okay, and we've still a lot of work to do yet. I asked on social media, the head of the recording of this, for people to get in touch with either one player or one reason

and they thought their team would go well this season, and I'll do some in the podcast here and more in our programme later in the week. But County Cricket podcast, who's only joined in so we can give them a plug on our podcast as well, which fair enough. But he said, Warwickshire, he says. Reason will do well. We've got a reinvigorated Dom Sibley, scoring runs for fun.

Looks like all those hours in the nets with Frosty over the winter have paid off. Frosty, of course, is one of my favourite cricket is. We're keeping a batter. Warwickshire all those years ago. And then he went and spent at least one year on the ground staff before he came back into coaching. He's a wonderful character.

But Dom Sibley, things looking good for Dom. And he made a big call this winter, didn't he? And hopefully he's going to profit from that this coming summer. He made a big call, a brave call by turning the lions down. As it turned out, with the weather they had in Australia, it was a fantastic call. So, you know, he's worked really hard on his game. The one great thing that Sibbs has at his disposal is he knows how to score runs. He has scored runs at international level.

He's got hundreds in Test match cricket. So he's not trying to do something he hasn't done before. He has changed his technique. He's got himself, I think, into a very, very good position. It mentally is in a good place. And he started well in preseason. But, you know, he knows that if he puts performances in, then, you know, hopefully opportunity to get back in the England team will come.

And he's very focused and very driven to do that. And I think he's got every chance to do that this summer. Okay. And Nathan McAndrew, in fact, the two leading wicket-takers and the Sheffield Shield are making the way of it at the competition as well, which is really good news. Rob Yates, looking forward to seeing a little bit of him as well. I thought he had a terrific year last year,

and as you say, opportunity for players to move on. Paul Farbrace, Peter Moore, thank you both very much for joining us. Essex, they're going to push really hard again. Alistair Cook signed a three-year deal. There won't be seeing so much of Simon Harmer, of course, Jamie Porter, Sam Cook, in the bowling line up. They've also added Marks to Ketty. I think if somebody, because obviously it wouldn't be out of my pocket

if ever I placed a bet, it'd have to be somebody giving me money, wouldn't risk my own on such things. But if they did, I might be maybe putting a cheeky pound or two upon Hampshire, Emily. And the only thing that would make me a little bit concerned about that is pitches at the Aegeas Bowl, which perhaps are a little too often flatten out and go a little dead, make it difficult to bowl the team out twice.

Otherwise, I imagine you'd be with me on that, wouldn't you? Well, firstly, I'm absolutely with you. I think obviously that pitching, I'm pretty confident there's been conversations about how they're going to produce these winning pitches. But I think for Hampshire this year, with the new signing of Ben Brown from Sussex, who's a batter keeper, is going to change the balance of the team. So we can see another spinner played. So we might see more of Mason Crane this year.

Orr, or Felix Organ, who's an off spinner, which is going to work with Keith Barker's footmarks, he's had a fantastic pre-season, Felix Orgon, and also with the bat, he's still not out. So I think Hampshire in a really good place, there's seam attack, Abbott, Abbas and Barker, they're just three leading seamers. I think the ground, we shouldn't worry too much about. I think Vince's experience is successive as a leader,

the new signing of Ben Brown, and a lot of players that have scored runs in preseason, yes, it's only preseason, and it's what happens when the competition starts. but I really like this change of balance in the team and I really hope we will see more of Mason Crane this summer. Got some big names back there at Surrey Mark Church, big names. Yeah, and I think what I am interested by is the summer as a whole

and listening to your conversation there with Pete Moore's and Paul Farbrace. I've never known cricket under the microscope like it is going into this season which I find absolutely fascinating just before I get on to Surrey with all the debate about England and is county cricket fit for purpose yes it is because where else are we going to get our cricketers from

where else are our test cricketers coming from if they're not coming from our 18 first class counties and I think that the thing here is it's further up the pecking order with the ECB, where do their priorities lie? And I feel for the players, I felt for the players in Australia. I really did on that Ashes tour because they're the ones they're having to go out there and do it.

And, you know, remember we've had two years of COVID as well, so that's changed things. This year, teams have had proper pre-seasons going into this summer. And all the talk about county cricket is all well and good. but actually at the end of the day where else are we getting these players from and we're getting them from county cricket to play test match cricket

and they're not bad players they're not bad players now maybe the preparation for them going into a test match is isn't ideal and I sat down last night Kevin House I had an argument with myself and I lost the argument with myself

but one thing that people more's mentioned there which I think is absolutely critical is that path from county cricket into test match cricket. There's nothing in between. And if there was a proper set up England Lions or an England Academy, there's nothing to stop you before a test series pulling out your best 16 and going head to head with an England's Lions team

against an England test match team squad and getting yourself prepared because overseas teams aren't going to come over and play it anymore it doesn't work like that because there's too much cricket there's too much white ball cricket so I think actually you can focus on 18 first class counties absolutely fine

but whether you change it to 12 to 8 I don't think it makes the blindest bit of difference to be honest with you because if there's no middle ground when you're picking these players to suddenly go into test match cricket, then you can go anywhere. But they're not getting that preparation. It's not county cricket's fault.

It's the set-ups fault. And I think until we get the names that are going to be managing director of cricket and how they want to operate and where do their priorities lie, because white ball's taken care of now, my fear for this season is everybody gets on the players' backs. And actually, it's not the player's fault, I don't think. So I just think that all this chat is all well and good, but I just think at the moment that this summer,

and also the other thing here is, as I say, higher up the pecking order, where do priorities lie? Yeah, but it's hard to imagine, it's hard to imagine the ECB, in light of everything that's just been said in the last four or five months, it's hard to imagine that the new chair or the new MD of England's cricket, of international cricket, is likely to be on anything, but on that page of reducing, reducing, reducing, reducing, downsizing, creating elite.

Where are they going to get, where is their talent coming from then? Where are they going to get their talent from? They'll create different systems. Gloucestershire. But my point being, is that going to work? And what I'm saying to you is, what I'm saying to you is, there is no middle ground between county cricket and test match cricket. You're just throwing lads in.

And that's why they want to create an elite system, which bridges that gap between the two. But I'm saying you can do it with the 18 first class counties. Gloucestershire, Dale Benkyn, looking forward to seeing how he gets on James Bracey in there in Division 1. Nazim Shah, of course, David Payne. We had David Payne on the programme, didn't we, our podcast last year? What a top bloke.

And he had a really successful season, Marcus Harris. So it would be interesting how they get on. Dale Benkenstein, he knows how to. win a county championship as a player. I'm really looking forward to following that story there. You've got Otis Gibson at Yorkshire. All eyes on Yorkshire for reasons that everybody will know. There's going to be no Gary balance at the start of the season.

Tom Kohler-Kadmore has a bit of an injury problem as well. So we'll see how they've gone on. Harris Ralph, of course, is a terrific signing early on in the season. Somerset, they'll be there and thereabouts. Peter Siddell, terrific signing for them, of course. No doubt lots of counties in for them. Lancashire, as I say, they are the favourites for the bookies. looking forward to seeing all sorts of individuals there at Lancashire,

most notably Josh Bahanan, I think, is going to have a really big year. For Kent, T20 champions, they'll be defending that, no doubt, very strongly. But Jackson Bird and then Matt Henry coming along, Darren Stevens, we're looking forward to seeing Darren, as good old Stivo, so let's see how they all get on there. But I reckon the top four, as I've got them down here at the moment, look like to me, in no particular order, Essex, Hampshire, Lancashire, and Warren.

I did try and set you up for the big names. I'm going to do it instead for Surrey. You've got Rory Burns, Olly Pope, and Sam Curran, with Tom to come back a little bit later on. You've got Keimar Roach roundabout as well. Jamie Smith, can you quickly tell us a bit about Jamie Smith before we move on? Because he's one that people are looking out for,

emerging player. Yeah, high-quality player. And I think you just have to look at his stats from last season. The fact that he keeps wicket as well, he captained Surrey in the one-day competition last year and took them to the semi-final. his cricket brain he has he's so ahead of his years he's the wisest 21 year old i've ever met to be honest with you um and you know he's a talented boy hugely talented boy um but it's it's the way he goes about

about his business but he knows and and just to get back to the surrey thing you know there's a lot of hungry players for different reasons in that surrey squad there's some that've got a point to prove. There are others that are at that point of their careers where if they want to take that step up, now is the time. There's a couple of others that due to retirements have had to step into other people's boots. So yeah, if I was to describe the Surrey squad, I would say there's no changes there. I'd say they're a very, very hungry squad this year for various reasons. North Hans have proven in the past that they're good enough to get into the top flight. It's more difficult for them to stay. They've obviously got one or two issues

behind the scenes they're going to sort out as well. They strike me as a team and particularly on some of the performances we saw last year from them that they will be competitive. They'll be tough opponents. It's if they can avoid having bad sessions. That can be the problem for teams in the top flight. Having one really bad session and you can then go on and lose the game. So let's see how Northans get on as well in Division 1. They're 10 teams there. They're eight in the second division. Our Leicestershire going to get on running foxes ambassador, Nikesh Ragharni.

Speak up for Leicestershire. How are they going to go up against... They surprised a few last season. They're steadily improving in the four-day format. They've got a couple of South Africans this year who they're expecting a lot of. We are Mulder who was involved in the test series against India, the victorious

South African squad. That was on that occasion against the mighty Indians just a couple of months ago. So he'll be full of confidence coming in to Leicestershire. Top order back and bowler a bit of medium pace as well. And then Buran Hendricks from South Africa as well,

left arm fast medium. So they're expecting quite a bit from them. They've got Callum Parkinson, who was a consistent performer last season, of course, led by Colin Ackerman. I think it'd be really interesting if we see Rahan Ahmed, the leggy, in action at all in red ball cricket this season.

Pitches won't be quite conducive to his style of bowling early on in this season, certainly. But he impressed really well for England under 19s in the whiteball format, leading them to that World Cup final just a short time ago. I think everyone in Leicestershire is a little bit more excited

about the white ball stuff this season, the T20 blast because they've got a couple of really exciting Afghan players. Ramanullah Gurba is at the top of the order, a bit of a sort of pinch hitter, I suppose.

He's of the mould of somebody like a Verenda Seawag, not quite of the same quality, of course, but that same mindset of just seaball, hit ball, and then Navinul Huck, who's an exciting young Seema

as well from Afghanistan. of them performed pretty well in the T20 World Cups. I think they're more excited, I think, in Leicestershire about the whiteball formats, but certainly as far as Red Ball Cricket is concerned, they'll be, you know, quietly confident of mounting some sort of challenge for promotion. Just a quick word from you on post-Azym Rafiq. This isn't post-Asim Rafiq, and his appearance before the Select Committee and everything that's gone on in the couple of months since then,

and the investigations are ongoing. How has that played out for you and how would you hope that it plays out now over this summer? Well, I mean, firstly, it's frustrating that it took something like this for people within the game to realise just what kind of problem there is and it's not just obviously about Asim Rafiq. He brought it to the fore and he obviously went through some terrible times at Yorkshire. But this is a problem that has been around in.

cricket, in sports, in the UK, forever, pretty much. And, you know, I've faced similar things to Azim. I didn't play for the first team at Leicestershire, but I was involved in age group cricket and high-level club cricket within the county as well. And it's gone on for years and years. And I was just so glad that it finally caught the attention of the mainstream media. The next step is key, as you say, what happens next?

What changes can be made? it's very difficult. Yorkshire are trying to put certain things in place and forge those better links with the South Asian community there. There was the question earlier, wasn't there, about the sort of pool, the talent pool within England, is it big enough to sustain 18 counties? Well, when you look at the fact that two-thirds of all recreational cricketers in England and Wales, every single area, it doesn't matter, two-thirds of those recreational cricketers are from South Asian communities. Why are they not getting into these county setups? Is it because two-thirds of the players are rubbish in recreational cricket? I don't think it's that. There's a massive, massive problem there, and I think that needs to be addressed. And I think one of the only ways to address that is those people who make those decisions.

within academies at counties, there needs to be more representation from the community. They need to start training up some ethnic minority coaches there. There's the black community which has been sort of ignored really for so many years. The ACE program is doing wonderful work on that regard and the ECB now getting involved with that. So there's lots of things like that which need to change. It's going to take a lot. It's not just a case of the ECB coming up with another one of these so-called schemes, they like to do every couple of years to get more South Asians involved in cricket.

I mean, building a couple of pavilions in Park Cricket is not going to solve the problem, and that's all they've literally been doing. They spent so much money on the South Asian Engagement Programme a couple of years. Basically nothing came of that. It was an absolute joke. It got lots of media coverage, made them look good at the time, but the proof is in the pudding, and nothing has happened since. So it's going to need serious change.

It's going to need all the counties on board with this, as well as the ECB and only then can we start to solve this problem which has been there for a number of years as I say and if they fail county cricket this is now that'll be one reason why other people will be able to then say

that prove they're not fit for purpose Hugh Loy I think Derbyshire will do well this season not because of one player but because of them being one team don't think I've ever known a more together group of players Mickey Arthur that was some sort of shock announcement wasn't it that sort of came from nowhere Mickey Arthur terrific all that international quality of coaching at Derbyshire. Let's see how they get on.

I'm looking down all of these teams. Nottinghamshire do stand out a little bit, but I reckon there's really competitive games of cricket on the cards there. Derbyshire, Durham, Glamorgan, Leicestershire, Middlesex, Knots, Sussex and Worcestershire, really interesting season. How is it all shaping up county cricket-wise in the women's game, Emily? Well, we sort of were in the unknown, weren't we, last year, what county cricket would look like for the women.

But it's still here, it's still alive. So County Cricket and the ECB leagues It's taking place in April and May It's 80-20 games in four days That is it So it's very short and sharp That's all the ECB are putting out there But I have this feeling

We are going to see this regrowth of county cricket And let me just explain that to you So the Southern Vipers I know it's my region and I'm biased But they've created this self-central cup Which sees all the counties in the region So that's Hampshire, Sussex, Barkshire, Oxford and Dorset and Buckinghamshire. They go to head to head in a 50 over competition throughout the summer.

So we will see the next best crop of ladies that aren't in the Vipers' first 11. So even those players that are in the Vipers squad, but don't make the starting 11, will be playing this with the hope to further develop and find some new talent across the region. And I'm expecting to see other regions will follow this in a similar way. so we may actually see a growth in county cricket but primarily through the regions rather than from that ECB. But we've got an exciting summer of women's cricket ahead

apart from the county cricket. Yeah, just a bit. I mean, we were delighted to see you all over social media with 100 last summer. That was terrific. Also, of course, helping your team across the line in the Charlotte Edwards Final. Charlotte Edwards Cup this year

is going to have quite a few England players probably, isn't it? Because that'll be the preparation for the Commonwealth Games which is going to take pretty much centre stage. alongside the 100 within the women's game off the back of what was just a remarkable story in New Zealand which has just come to a conclusion as well but the role that England players will play in the season up and coming?

Yeah, absolutely exactly right. So how the season looks is we've got the Charlotte Edwards Cup starting which starts mid-May and we're expecting to see England players available to play in that. And also it's a fantastic opportunity for the domestic players to put their hands up and say, I'm ready to play for England because there is two England

international tours, South Africa that starts in June and then they've obviously got the Commonwealth's in the middle, the 100, and then England have got India overplay in England as well. So there's a lot of international cricket but that Charlotte Edwards Cup at the start the summer is when we will see those England players

and they would be going head to head with domestic players as well because there will be competition for places in that England side. And then we can't forget the Rachel Hayhoe Flint which cup competition, which is primarily played in June before the 100 and in September after the 100. It's really, really exciting and busy,

probably the busiest summer we've seen since the women's games been professionalised. So, yeah, very exciting. Dave Brooks has been in touch on Twitter saying Tom Haynes of Sussex, so still at the crease, he says poise plays the ball late and the 1,000 run season we should see him on at least a lion's story bowls, a few trundles as well, they're prone to falling over mid-appeal.

Well, who would have guessed it? But anyway, thank you. I'm going to read out more of those messages over the start of the season as well. But in terms of quality and the way things really have improved in the women's game, I mean, sure people are talking about the Gulf with Australia and everything at the moment, Emily, and just a quick word from church off the back of this as well.

But the quality, the professionalism, obviously the contracts have made a difference. I mean, massive steps, massive steps forward. Yeah, absolutely. that and you can Australia are the gold standard. They've invested in their women's game however many years ago and look at them in that World Cup. They were the most professional outfit. They were dominant.

They were athletic. And yes, we are a few years behind that, but the way the game was two years ago, when these regions were set up to where it is now, it is very different. And there's going to be some exciting cricket to watch and players are developing at all levels. So, yeah, it's such an exciting time for the women's game.

and it's only going to go up, almost opposite to the men's game. There's a lot of positives around the women's game and this new structure. So, yeah, really looking forward to the summer as a player and obviously as a commentator as well. We get very excited when we commentate on you as a player, though, don't we, Churchy? There'll be coverage on the BBC. Churchy is involved with a lot of that. You have noticed a lot of change.

You keep talking about it, Churchill, to us throughout the season. Yeah, I think it's fantastic. and I take the barometer I've got a 12 year old daughter and I think more through luck than judgment with the 100 I think that was fantastic

for the women's game the exposure that the women's game got there and you know when my little girls tapping me on the shoulder after watching a game of the 100 and saying Daddy can we go and have a hit I'm yeah

of course we can so I think we you know with what Emily saying that I think it's such an exciting time for the women's game. I really do. And I think the exposure and the coverage and the number of professional cricketers there are now in the women's game, it can only go from strength to strength. And yet I'd agree with you. Every time we're on air and our dear colleague Emily Windsor is out there batting and providing the glue to that batting order. And whenever there's a collapse and she comes and the calm head. She's the calm head in the commentary book.

She's the calm head out in the middle as well. Churchy, she is brilliant. She is truly brilliant. And it's very excited. Let's be honest, we are nervous,

okay? We are nervous because we have built up that sort of relationship now. Like no other player that we commentate on, we just get a little bit tingling in over. I know. I know.

It's not good. Is that because you've got to deal with a grumpy me if I don't get any of us? No, I've never met a grumpy of them. There is that as well. There is that we know if you're on air with this the next day

and it doesn't go according to plan, oh, what a long afternoon, this is going to be. But no, I think the women's game, you know, it's terrific. And we saw it with what England did on that run to get to the final and everybody talking about it. So, as Emily said there, it's in a hugely positive place at the moment. Okay. Many thanks for everybody's taken part in the last hour.

So much we've covered. So much we haven't covered. But we will do over the next six months. But the most important thing, as Chuchy alluded to, is the fact that we will give. much attention to the players what they're achieving in all the cricket this summer because they are truly gifted wonderful people and that is why we're here to spread the word of cricket. Thank you everybody for taking part. Don't forget every ball of every game, the men's cricket throughout the summer. You can follow that on the BBC Sport website and also via the BBC

sports app. We'll be back with plenty more over the summer so please join us there. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Thank you.