Test Match Special - Joe Root: 'Ashes doesn't need pink-ball Test'

Episode Date: November 30, 2025

Joe Root tells Stephan Shemilt that the Ashes doesn't need a pink-ball Test match. Australia's first Test centurion Travis Head responds by telling Stephan "Pink ball, white ball, red ball - who really cares?".As the pair differ on views ahead of the Test between England and Australia at The Gabba, Eleanor Oldroyd sits in a cafe just outside the iconic venue with Andy Zaltzman and Henry Moeran to look ahead to the second match of the Ashes. Plus, former Australia Test skipper Tim Paine discusses what the pink-ball offers under the lights in Brisbane.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Bring more gear, carry more passengers, face greater challenges. Welcome to the world of Defender, with seating up to eight, ample cargo space and legendary off-road capability. It's built to make the most of every adventure. Learn more at landrover.ca. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Hello, I'm Eleanor Aldroyd, and welcome to the Test Match Special podcast in Brisbane. Four days out from the second test of the men's ashes, we're in the shadow of the gabber. And I use the word shadow advisedly, because we've taken shelter under the awning of a cafe just around the corner from the famous old ground,

the floodlights standing out against the blue sky. It is absolutely cooking in Brisbane today, I think about 35, 36 degrees, and we've just been standing. coaching Joe Root doing his press call with the assembled media, and there were hats, there was sunscreen. I've got my own personal fan here, handheld fan, because it is so hot here. And Henry Moran, Andy Zaltzman and I are sitting with a cooling drink. And Henry, we're just very glad that we only have to broadcast in this temperature

and not play cricket in it. Well, Ellie, as if there was ever a reminder needed of the challenges of playing in hot weather, well, Joe Root, as he stood there, looking at the various journalists, written and broadcast standing there sweltering in the heat just a reminder that sometimes as we offer our thoughts and criticisms from the cool of the air conditioning we've got absolutely no idea

how hot and challenging it is out there in the middle and I bet he longs to say you lot couldn't last five minutes playing cricket in this heat but it's an intense environment already nothing says welcome to Brisbane more than a bunch of sweaty English journalists gathered round by the wheelie bins Zoltz waiting to talk to Joe Root. Yes, the glamour of the press corps.

Yeah, it's toast. Yeah, that's something I think would be quite hard to analyse having not sort of experienced it as a player. I mean, it doesn't really come up in my stats. There's no filter for performance when it's over 35 degrees and humid.

So it's one of those variables that cricket throws up that makes it such an intriguing sport. So we've heard from Joe Root today. So it is the start of training in the nets here at the Gabba Henry. So the England team getting out there, going through their paces. In nets that we're told replicate the conditions out in the middle at the Gabba as well as anywhere can.

Yeah, and again, this continues that conversation and debate and perhaps moves it on decisively about the Canbera decision and not sending the batting unit to play in that lion's match against the PMs 11 because you've got soil and again the temperature and again the environs of cricket in this part of the world that are going to have more accurately replicate what England are going to be facing. It won't be the same as a match. Of course it won't. Time in the middle, the hostility of being out there with a crowd in front of you, all of those things. But if you've got the likes of Harrybrook, Zach Crawley, Joe Root himself in the nets, getting dedicated time over the course of the next three or four days, it's going to be

invaluable. And the Gabon nets, we're reliably informed, are a pretty good representation of what they'll face out there in the middle. too. So yeah it's going to be a really valuable few days this for England and also the other factor that is quite beneficial to them is they've had a little bit of luck with the weather the last couple of days because

yesterday at Alan Borderfield stayed dry enough for them to have a good net session before the rain came in the afternoon today at the Gabba again sun shining and they're going to get the chance to go through the preparation they wanted to do well let's hear from Joe Root not the start he wanted to this test

series where he is seeking that elusive ashes century down under scores of naught and eight in Perth. He's been speaking to our chief cricket writer, Stefan Shemmelt. Joe, could just start with a quick bit of housekeeping. How's Mark Wood? Yeah, he seems pretty good. Well, within himself anywhere, you know, we'll do pretty well. And, you know, he'll do everything he can to be as fit as soon as possible. So we'll see how things unfold over the next little while when, you know, every opportunity he gets to play for England, put his heart and soul into it, as well, as fast as he can.

and the next little while it'll be all about readying himself as best as possible. There isn't too much you haven't seen in test cricket. Have you ever known

a reaction to a defeat like we've experienced in the past week? Probably not but I've not seen many games like that either so it is what it is

in many ways like we'll do everything we can this week to ready ourselves to get used to these conditions it's obviously very hot and very different to what we're experiencing

in Perth. There's a pink ball element to it so having those night trainings is going to be crucial as well making sure you maximise that time and ready yourself as best you can in that respect and getting used to the surfaces here as well.

Again, different challenge, a different opportunity I guess to go out there and find ways of scoring runs and taking wicket. So it's just being really clear on how we're going to approach that individually, building those big partnerships that set up games and being, as we were in the first innings with the ball, you know, if we can carry that sort of form, and we're going to ask a lot of good questions of their batters. Ben told us yesterday that you guys have reflected on what happened. How did you reflect on your own returns?

Well, it was pretty disappointed in terms of the numbers. First innings, I thought, it was a good ball. It's one of those things that you can get early on. You've just got to try and find a way to get through that little phase when it's tricky at the start. And then second innings, I thought my tempo was really good. It just made one mistake. You play a miss at that, or it goes between the keeper and the stumps before. You never think of it again.

I think it's having a bit of realism, understanding, yes, there are things that might have done differently if I get an opportunity again, but also, it's not the end of the world. I know I'm a good player, I know I'm going to be able to score runs again, and just making sure I'm really clear on how I want to construct an innings against the pink ball in these conditions against this attack. So that's what this week's about. That's what the next four days is for, just ready yourself as best as possible with the rest of the lads. And, you know, having those good conversations around things about how we can. you know, work together and build those big partnerships that are going to set up games for us. Would you have liked a bat in Canberra? No, I think this is the best way to prepare personally.

It's like I say, as you can tell, it's very different in terms of the humidity, the heat. The surface is going to be very different. And, you know, the fact that we're all together and we can ready ourselves as a group, I think it's also very important too. So, of course, you know, time in the middle is one thing, but making sure as an experienced player and someone that's played a lot of cricket, I feel like I know what I need to do to get the best out of myself

and how I want to ready myself for this next game and that felt like the best thing to do was to be here and utilise this long leading at this ground on these surfaces so hopefully that works out really well for us you've played in all of England's pink ball test matches you've been captain for a lot of them what are the different challenges of playing against the pink ball

I think how quickly the game can change different phases of the day it can feel quite placid and you can feel quite out out of the game with the ball and then very quickly things can turn around. Similarly with the bat, recognising those moments and utilising them best you can. You know, when to maybe put your foot down and maximise the good batting conditions and similarly being able to manage it when it changes and how quickly it changes. I think previous tests that I've played with a pink ball, you know, it hasn't got darker until later.

I think here it looks like you're going to have half of the game under floodlights and sort of in that twilight phase in the middle. which normally comes around the back end of that second session and the start of the last session. So there'll be different elements to contend with, but that's all part of the fun, right? That's what it's about is can we be skillful enough and brave enough to be better than Australia in those big moments. What about pink ball cricket as a concept? Because I think I can say that there's one country who seems to play a lot of it, and that doesn't seem particularly fair.

Does the ashes need pink ball cricket? I personally don't think so, but it does add to things. It's obviously very successful and very popular here and obviously Australia have got a very good record here as well. So you can see why we're playing one of those games and ultimately, you know, two years out that it's going to be there. So it's part and parcel of making sure you're ready for it and, you know, a series like this, does it need it?

I don't think so, but it doesn't mean that it's, you know, it shouldn't be here either. And just this week, coming off the defeat in Perth, you know how quickly the momentum can get away from a team in an Ashes series. I mean, it just adds a little bit of mustard, doesn't it, to what's coming up in the next few days?

Yeah, but I also think that this is a very different team to the previous Ashesis teams I've played in out here. And one thing that we've done previously is respond very well to bad weeks of cricket and when we've made mistakes, we've come back out and we've put a really good performance in. So that's something that I expect us to do this time round. That's the opportunity that's ahead of us.

So I think looking at it in that respect, obviously understanding the challenges that Australia pose and all the stuff that they, all the good stuff they played in last week, can we respond well to that? Can we have good answers for that? And put a really good step forward in the start of this game. You only need me to remind you of England's record at this ground.

It's a chance to make a bit of history here. It is a chance to make a bit of history. and it'll make it all that bit sweeter if we get over the line here. So I played in other venues where we've had terrible records and come out and won. It's a great feeling. So that's the carrot that's the stangle in front of us. Cheers, Joe. Thank you.

Cheers, thank you. Well, so that was Joe Root talking to Stefan Schemelt. And by the sound of it, he is not a fan of the ashes having a pink ball test. I mean, it's where we are. We're here at the Gabba. We've been at Adelaide before doing this, Henry. the way Australia liked to do it, but it's not the way that England have liked to do it over the years. It felt like he wanted to say that and make that point, and he was quite eager to get on the

front foot about the necessity of a pink ball test match in an Asher series. Look, there are really good reasons for Australia wanting to. One, they've got a brilliant record in Pinkball cricket, and yeah, in the same way as they used to start a series at the Gabba because it was such a fortress for them. But also, because they want matches in prime time in terms of a television audience. You get that on the East Coast when you play in Perth because of the time difference you get that of course with a day-night test match and the rest of the series we're into Christmas holidays so once we get to Adelaide, Sydney and Melbourne that audience is available to watch because people are taking time of time of work and so there are arguments as to why they would want to have pink ball cricket

but it's a fair point that not many countries do play it regularly we saw a little bit of an explosion of it in the sort of mid to late 2010s but actually it's really Australia where these matches have been played more regularly and they have got this brilliant record playing in them and what is that record? Well that record for Australia 14 pink ball test played 13 wins one defeat that defeat was here in Brisbane against the West Indies a fantastic game of cricket West Indies won by eight runs with Shamar Joseph taking seven for 68 and I think being tracked with the longest celebration run in test cricket history when he took the final wicket bowled at Josh Hazelwood

and seemed to do about four laps of the ground before he stopped. It was a fantastic win for West Indies. And actually Australia's record at Brisbane, the last few matches, does give England a bit of hope. They hadn't lost a test in over 30 years at the start of the decade. But their last five tests, they've only won two. They've beaten England and South Africa. They've lost to India and that game with West Indies.

and they had a draw with India at the Gabba as well. So it's not quite the fortress that it once was. But that said, well, England's record in day-night tests won, two, lost five. But they did win one in New Zealand relatively recently, although only Stokes of the current bowling attack was part of that game. But yeah, it's a definite strength for Australia. And Mitchell Stark in particular. I mean, he already decimated England at Perth, didn't he?

And now here he is. And, you know, the man with an astonishing. record with the pink ball? Yes, he averages 17 and he's played all 14 of Australia's pink ball tests, 81 wickets at 17. So that's a very healthy set of stats over five wickets per match at a tremendous average. I mean most bowlers have done better in pink ball tests but stark by a really striking margin. Pat Cummins also averages 17 in pink ball tests although he won't be playing here. Nathan Lyons averaging 25 in pink ball, 43 wickets in 13 games. that's quite significantly below his career average.

They have broadly been much lower scoring games than day tests. I've compared it over the last 10 years. The first Pinkwall test was in the 2015-2016 season, so basically 10 years ago. And the overall runs per wicket is about five fewer in day-night cricket. Around about 25, this is bowling averages versus 30 in day cricket. So it's quite a pronounced drop-off, and particularly for patient. bowl who's average a little under, well, 23.7 in day night cricket compared with 29 in day cricket, spinners 30 in day night cricket, compared with 32 in day cricket. So it's been a bowler's game

generally and Stark in particular has taken advantage of that. I think the psychology behind it is what makes it so interesting in some respects because Mitchell Stark statistically bowls quicker with a pink ball than he does with a red ball and it's the same athlete running in and hurling the projectile down towards the other end, but it goes quicker when it's in his hand when he's playing in pink ball cricket. Is that because perhaps it's a little bit cooler in the evening and he can get in there a bit quicker? Is it because he has more confidence because he knows he takes wickets? All of these really interesting elements. I think the other factor is the psychology of captains and how sometimes selections perhaps you get a little bit hoodwinked by thinking the ball's

going to do more than maybe at will. And certainly in previous couple of Vash's test matches has played at Adelaide Oval. England have been quite vocal on the fact their bowlers weren't pitching it up enough and all this conversation about we're saving Jimmy Addison and Stuart Broad who missed out at the Gabba last time to save them for Adelaide Oval.

And there's so much talk and conversation about what the ball's going to do, how it's going to behave and how teams can best utilize it. Ben Stokes declared at Mount Mangalue to ensure that England got the opportunity to bowl when it was dusk. I know Joe Rueh doesn't like it, but for fans of the science, I suppose, both psychologically and meteorologically, it's interesting.

Well, I wonder, Zoltz, if you look back to the very start of the Ash's history, and the fact that in two years time in 2027, there's going to be the 150th anniversary test match in Melbourne, underlights, with a pink ball. I mean, should that be happening? I mean, you're a purist when it comes to these historical moments. moments? I think, yeah, ideally it would be a day game, I think. I'm not totally opposed to pink ball cricket. It provides a different challenge. I think there's maybe too much of an element of fortune in it in terms of, you know, when teams are bowling and batting. So I don't quite see

the need, you know, from a cricketing point of view, I don't think there's any need to have the 150th test as a day-night game or indeed this game as a day-night game. But it does provide a different challenge. We saw two quite different games on the last tour. The Adelaide game went deep into day five. Josh Butler had a marathon rearguard, got some of like 26 off 200 balls. England only just lost that game in the final session.

But the Hobart game was a rapid three-day game with multiple collapses all over the place. Mark Woodbowl tremendously in that game for England. They've got nine wickets but England ended up being thrashed as they tended to be in that series. so yeah I'm not a massive fan of it but it does yeah it does I guess provide a bit of texture across a five test series well it's always very interesting to hear from players who played in these pink ball tests and find out what the ball does specifically to make it more challenging whether you're batting bowling fielding or even keeping wicket

and the former Australian wicketkeeper and captain tim pain is currently coaching the prime minister's 11 in the pink ball game that's happening up in canberra Well, here his thoughts on the pink ball in just a second. But first Simon Mann's been talking to him about the regeneration of this Australian cricket team. What is the new generation of talent coming through? If you believe, I've said this a few times what you read and see in the media at times, it can sound like the cupboard is a little bit bare,

but certainly from what I've seen in the last 12 months, there's a huge amount of talent, probably as much talent as we've ever had coming through. It's just that I think the upbringing of these cricketers now is now around T20 and whiteball cricket. So skill level is through the roof. But I suppose the focus for us is teaching these younger guys how and when to use all the skills they've got now.

But certainly in terms of talent, Australia is really well placed. We've just got to sort of coach that talent into performance. You were talking bowlers or batters? Is it strength in the bowlers? Yeah, I mean, in this role with Australia, I've had, you know, I've seen really good young fast bowlers come through. We've got really, really skilled and highly talented batters and some good quality spin behind Nathan.

as well. So, you know, you don't get exposed and see a lot of these players because our test team and one day team has been quite dominant and T20. We've won all those World Cups in the last few years and a test world championship. So the senior teams have looked the same for a long period of time and a lot of guys underneath probably haven't got the exposure that you would like, but that's a sign of a great team being ahead of them. You haven't got a new Shane Warren coming through, have you? No, well, probably never, will we? I mean, he was out of the box and one of a kind. but certainly even, you know, just being in India in the one-day series with Tandvi-Sanga,

he's an exciting talent, highly skilled, lands the ball really well, and someone that I think will do a fantastic job once opportunities arise post Adam Zampa and Nathan Lyon. Why do you think England teams find it so hard to win in Australia? It's one series win in close on 30 years. Oh, it's no different for us going anywhere else, is it? I mean, we forget that at times. We haven't killed it in England for 20 years either,

and India has been a challenging place for everyone to go on. play. I think it's what you brought up on, right? You play in certain conditions your whole life and then I think fans and media just expect you to be able to walk over to another country playing different conditions, different bounce, different spin, different balls and just be able to, I guess, forget, you know, 25 years of muscle memory of a certain length coming through to a certain height and, you know, I know everyone judged the English boys really harshly in Perth. That is a foreign place for Australians to play most of us unless we grow up in Western Australia. So to be fending at balls and knicking off and looking silly in Perth is not just an English thing. We've done that

ourselves and I think the positive thing for them now is they've seen it at its bouncest and the rest of the year should get a little bit easier for them. Well Brisbane, I mean that's normally a struggle for England and you've got to throw in. It won't be as quick though. It won't be as quick as what you see in Perth and probably not quite as bouncy but it's sort of going from Perth to Brisbane and then as I said I think Perth is now the quickest and bouncest wicket and it's the hardest place to start no doubt. England. Gabble will present more. challenges in terms of the swing with the humidity in the pink ball definitely but again I think the English have used Duke's ball so the swing shouldn't be as big an

issue as the bounce was in Perth. You're pretty well placed on pink ball because you've played five pink ball test matches you actually played a pink ball test at Brisbane just to explain what it's like yeah again it's just it's just slightly different the ball behaves slightly differently it's a little bit I explain to people the time it's it's easier to see it the ball looks a bit bigger I believe but it's hard to pick up the detail in terms of the seam and the riding on the ball so it's not always easy to see which way it's going the seam's not as clear to be able to pick up little things like that so if you know seeing guys bowl wobble

scene with a red ball is a little bit easier than it is with a pink seeing which way it might be spinning from a spinner that can spin it both ways is difficult to pick up with the pink ball so again it's just different little challenges that you don't get with the other game which makes it difficult but I think yeah the Aussies have been playing really well with the pink ball. We played occasionally in shiel cricket and the test boys have been really successful over the last of five years. What about the time of the day? I mean, does it get tricky? I mean, you're well placed. You batted and you kept wicket in pink ball. If the ball's new underlites, yeah, it's a real handful. If it's old underlights, I didn't find it too bad. But yeah, and even

catching, I found it's just a little bit harder to judge the distance. I found wicked keeping in a pink ball game for me. I would have sore hands at the end of a day's play, which I didn't have in a red ball, I think it was just the ball would sort of just get on you a little bit quicker. Judging the distance was a little bit harder. Again, because the ball looked a little bit bigger, it just got on you a little bit quicker at times. But yeah, for me, playing in it, I loved it.

I thought it was just another different challenge. I know at times in cricket we may have too many different formats and too much going on, but certainly when it was in Adelaide, it was a great week. It was a great ground to play. I don't know it's at the Gabba now, but it was always a test match that I really look forward to. How long did it take you to get used to playing

with a pink ball? I mean, could you do it in practice. I'm used to after practicing or did you have to play? Yeah, I think everyone's different. And again I find a little bit the same with the stuff you mentioned with the night time and the ball moving around a bit. I found, you know, when you're in change rooms, talk about it a lot, it tends to happen and

you're worried about it, whereas if you just go out with a really clear mind and play what's in front of you, most top line test players will adapt to whatever's in front of them. But, yeah, I mean, I like to have a bit of a look at it myself. I wasn't, you know, Joe Reed or Steve Smith, that's for sure. So for me, the more I can see it, the better I felt, and the more relaxed I felt when I went out to the middle, other guys are happy to go

straight out. And you're sort of seeing that, I guess, with the preparations this Asher series, England aren't using this game. Some people, it makes a lot of sense to them. Clearly, they think they can go without it, which is fine. What do you think about that? What would you have preferred to have done? As a player, for me, I would like to have a look at it. I would have asked to, but, you know, I wasn't a three-format player. I wasn't playing IPLs. I wasn't a wanted player around the Globe playing 12 months of the year. So when the S summer was on for me, that was my time to shine and to train as hard as I could. But, you know, I played with, you know, Steve Smith and Pat Cummins

and Mitchell State. These guys are playing cricket, Travis Head, 12 months of the year. So any time you can get them off their feet and freshen up in a big series like an Ashes. It makes sense as well. So I get it from both sides. Just a quick reminder, you can hear every ball of the second Ashes test at the Gabba. 4 a.m. Thursday morning, the first ball is bold. And to find us, all you need to do is search Ashes on BBC Sounds. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. The Dakar Rally is the ultimate off-road challenge.

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And get analysis and reaction of every day's play with the Test Match Special podcast. The Stamps out of the ground. Test match special at the Ashes. Listen on BBC Sounds. One other talking point that's emerged in the last couple of days, Henry, is the fact that the pitch at Perth is still under discussion. We heard, didn't we, that it had been given the highest possible rating by the match referee in that game down at the Perth Stadium.

But Usman Kowager was not a fan. I mean, he didn't have the best test match, let's face it. But Uzi had some rather disobliging things to say about the pitch at Perth. Well, he did. And words that aren't necessarily safe even for a podcast, Ellie, and his descriptions of it not terribly complimentary. And a piece of something is what he described it as. Cricket Australia apparently meeting this week and asking him to explain himself about the criticism. But, you know, the ICC have judged it to be very good. I did wonder whether Cricket Australia publicising that rating because it actually was quite hard to find on the ICC website. Sometimes when a pitch is controversial. traversal. There's a bit more of a song and a dance about it, but it was almost as though cricket Australia was saying, yeah, England, you're lost in two days and don't you go blaming our pitch either. But as McAwaadja, you know, speaking about the 19 wickets that were lost on the first. There's a statistical argument to say the pitch was difficult to bat on, but then

rather unhelpfully for his argument, Travis Head had a slightly better time of it when he went out there and scored that quick for a hundred. So it'll be interesting to see to see how that plays out this week. And of course, Coager is one of the big selection questions for Australia, whether he keeps his place in the side. I'm not sure he's necessarily endeared himself with the powers of the cricket Australia, though.

But he is a big hero here, of course. I mean, he's a, well, I mean, an adopted Queenslander, isn't he, I think, Osama and Coagia. But the pictures all around the ground. You know, it does make you wonder, Andy, whether this could be his big farewell, I don't know,

or maybe he'll go out and score 150. under the lights and we won't talk about it till the end of the ashes. Yes, that's possible. I mean, his recent form really since sort of halfway through the 2023 ashes has not been very good. He had a double hundred in Sri Lanka, but not a huge amount other than that, having had a tremendous few years after coming back in the team spectacularly at the SCG and during the last ashes here and getting hundreds in both innings, having been out of the side for a while. He's Australia's oldest opener since 1953.

But we've seen, as Jimmy Anderson, the shining example, how age is not what it was in cricket and in many other sports as well. But I think it's more the long-term form that Kawaja has had that is the concern for Australia. In terms of the pitch in Perth, we looked at the ball tracking data during the game, and there was actually below average amount of swing through the air and a fairly average amount of sideways deviation off the pitch. It's always hard to know exactly how to interpret those, because the overall figures don't necessarily tell you

about the sort of individual balls. But clearly it was a difficult pitch to bat on a number of players have said, you know, very experienced players who've played a lot of test matches said that they found it challenging. We saw Steve Smith having one of the most erastrewing innings of his long and illustrious career.

So elite players were struggling on it. But then at the same time, through most of cricket history, on a pitch like that, you wouldn't have seen players trying to counteract it by driving balls on the up through the offside or trying to hit balls over deep set field. So it was played on a difficult pitch in a very modern way

which led to the sort of three rapid innings and then we saw I guess the good side of modern batting in the way Travis Head played innings that would have been largely inconceivable for most of cricket history. Well absolutely no problems on that pitch for Travis Head as you say Andy that record

breaking century from him and he's also been talking to the press at the Gabba here this afternoon. It's been nice to spare away from it for a week and I think the badness starts again getting to Brisbane now and we're fully back into it and it feels a little bit like going to Perth, it's just when I start now

so I want to get to Thursday, want to get going so again start the prep, start the process again and crack back in and just trying to be playing and keep away from all the other stuff. Travis Australia sort of embraced pink ball cricket more than any other country. We spoke to Joe earlier on and he said he wasn't sure

the ashes needs a pink ball test what do you think? Well, Alley's pretty good if you've been down there I think here's going to be I think we sold out four days here so we'd be sold that anyway wouldn't it

with the red ball or not yeah it would be but obviously we've embraced it we've been able to put out a good product we've been able to play really really well with it and pink ball

white ball red bull I won't use the next word who really cares but yeah it doesn't need it does it not it's a great spectacle we're going to have huge crowds again

yeah look forward to the week And look, if you win it, you think it's great. And if you lose, maybe not. So, I don't know, both teams might have differing opinions by the end of it if you get it. But I think it's a great, I think it's great for the game. I think it's new. We talked about T20 and you see T10 and you see all these different formats. It's true.

It still works the same way. It's still five days. It's just with a slightly different coloured ball and it brings a different atmosphere. So Travis Head guaranteed selection for Australia. I suppose it's simply a question of where they bat him, whether he opens again or whether he drops back down to the middle order. We still don't know about Pat Cummins, Henry, even though he's not in the squad,

there are quite a lot of hints that he could potentially return for this game, although arguably they don't need him. And he's just mentioned Mitchell Stark's incredible figures in pink ball tests. England, though, there's questions, aren't there, about who comes in and replaces Mark Wood after the news yesterday, that he's not going to be fit enough to play this game. Yeah, Joe Root, as we heard in that interview, was quite guarded in time.

frames and when asked directly by a member of the Australian media, is there no chance he can play? He said, well, he'll do everything he can. Ultimate Pro, one thing and another. I mean, he'll be a huge miss for England as we expect. He doesn't play. Was it training today. It wasn't yesterday at Alan Borderfields, but he did arrive at training today, a huge amount of strapping on that left knee as well. And look, he will do absolutely everything he can to be available. He had a brilliant time of it in the in the Hobart day-night game at the end of the last Ashes tour in Australia. And England, would love to have him available.

Equally, they've got this big collection of fast bowling options and it got pots and tongue playing in the match at Canberra, so they do have bowlers getting some miles in the legs. So, yeah, that would be the obvious solution for England, just a light-for-light replacement if they want to go down the route of five seamers. But there is the prospect, sure, Bashir could get an opportunity. Nathan Lyons, pink ball record is a good one. And there is the potential England to look at Bashir and think,

well, we've been hedging an awful lot on you being a big part of our ashes plans for the last three years. Why wouldn't we give them the opportunity if we think the conditions and the surface looks right? So it'll be interesting to see how England approached things. For Australia, I think the most likely option would be that you see Travis Head pushing up the order. I think he's somebody who clearly enjoys opening the batting. Apparently he volunteered it when that second innings came around and Kowager wasn't fit and available. That could then see Bo Webster coming into the middle. order potentially. So Australia

have got lots of options as well should Kawaja not play and I think the Pat Cummings thing well they're enjoying it aren't they? They're having a good time just dangling that out there and saying well you know we've said he's not available but I'm not going completely rule it out. Well in terms

of England spinners and looking at the scorecard from the day night game in Adelaide last time England spinners did quite well unfortunately those spinners were Joe Root David Milan and Ollie Robinson who bowled a few overs of off spin and Lyme picked up wickets for Australia in that game 5 in the match. So, yeah, spin can be can be effective.

We saw in the last test that the pace that England used. It was the first time in a test in Australia that England have averaged a faster, average ball speed than the Australian seam attack. So comparing seam attack with seam attack since the 2006-7 series, only by a little, but it did show that that strategy of getting. going with high pace. It was very, it was highly effective in that first innings and not effective in the second, but the game had taken a curious course by then. So yeah, it's interesting choices for England. One of the thing they will really have to, they have to improve their second innings

record since the start of the, well, the last two years since the start of 2024, this England team has been really struggled in second innings with the bat in the first year and a half of Basball up to the end of the 23 Ashes. They'd been the most effective second innings batting team in world cricket since then ninth out of the 12 test playing nation. So that's a curious change in the way that they have fared under the Stokes-McCullum regime,

a number of the players. Individually have really poor second innings records, Olly Pope, Zach Crawley recently. Only Joe Root of the regular top seven has not suffered a significant drop-off from first to second innings over the last two years. So that's something that England will really have

to rectify if they're going to challenge in this game and the series as a hole but here's something to cling to as a beacon of hope since the second world war 20 Ashes series in Australia in the second test of those series there have been three draws so 17 games with the results and the winning team in the second test has won the series in 16 out of those 17 occasions so basically the first test was completely irrelevant by that logic the third fourth and fifth test are completely irrelevant as well they've just got to win this one simple when you put it like that the other factor with the selection of mark would Ellie just as

something else to throw in there is England will be so wary of the prospect if he was to break down and I know that Ben Stokes has been really impressive in terms of his fitness as a bowler but knee injuries can be problematic hamstring injuries can be problematic and flare up and we know that Ben Stokes as fit as he is is somebody that has broken down during matches previously if England was to lose would and then from their point of view heaven forbid, Ben Stokes in the same game, nightmare scenario, you really are looking at trouble. So they will be perhaps just that little bit more cautious with Mark Wood,

particularly because second match of a series, still three to come. There's going to be that sense that let's just be a little bit careful here. Well, it's great being back here in Brisbane. In the Wolland-Gaba suburb of Brisbane, to be precise, which is the home of the Gaba, the Brisbane Cricket Ground. And we've come from Perth where we had this beautiful modern stadium, the brand new, or almost brand new Perth Stadium in the park on the banks of the river on the Burzwood Peninsula, to a real old-fashioned concrete bowl stuck on an intersection. Our taxi dropped us off at the vulture street end of the ground.

So it says everything, doesn't it, about the heat, the crowds, the sense of intimidation. of playing at the Gabba and it's something that England cricket players have talked about going down through the decades, including our very own Phil Tufton. So we thought we'd get some Brisbane memories from Tuffers. An interesting word, isn't it? The gabattoir. It is a bit like that. You know, a very passionate Australian crowd in Brisbane, very vocal. They'll get stuck into you on the boundary and they'll give you all sorts of stuff there. That is for sure. But I played a different Gabba there, the one with the the dog track that run round it and the hills and you know with people on them and sledging you and what have you but uh always sort of going to be fast and bouncy there not quite as much as perth but uh an intimidating atmosphere at brisbury go on tell me more well no it's just you know they're just i think it's sort of it's tropical up there isn't it there's a bit of tropics up there and you know there's um you know the humidity and

everything and a lot of sort of country folk comes to the grounds you know and they're absolutely you know you're cutting in half and they they bleed australian and they bleed australia so they'll they'll have the crowd for sure on their side and uh yeah of course i went to uh university in in queensland what did you study well i didn't actually study left arm spin left arm spin i I went there for a summer when I was there summer for when I was about 16, 17. And tough cricket, proper tough cricket. You know, the guys don't mess about there. And, you know, play it hard on good pitches.

When you get in, you're only having a knock. You don't have a knock for another two or three weeks or something. So they get stuck in and when you're bowed, they expected, you know, the pommie, the pommi that they've got all the way over it. Get some wickets. but it was a great learning curve for me playing in Australia just about how tough it can be and how competitive it can be. We'll get stuck into the game you played in 94,

where England, they're lost, but we'll move on for that. But what about Brisbane as a place, toughers? Well, very nice. Because it's, you know, it's a bit tropical. The climate's a bit different. You're in the far north. Absolutely. And you've got the gold cone.

just up the road and the Sunshine Coast just down the other end and I think is right. And so I had a wonderful time, as I say, 16 or 17 year old. I was really sort of taken under some of their wings, you know, and they showed me around. It was a fabulous spot really down on the key side and everything. So there's lots going on, you know, good vibes in Brisbane, you know, everyone's having a good time. But, yeah, the cricket will be tough. So 1994, England take on Australia in the first test match. Tends to be the first test.

It's not the first test in this series. Of course, that played in Perth. England were asked to Fields and Australia, 426. England in response to 167. Toftall actually went wickedless first innings. but him roaring back with a forfeit in the second inning. No, absolutely. Well, that was when the first ball, Phil DeFratus,

Michael Slater, slapped it over points head for one bounce four. A lot of these first balls or first overs and what have you are quite telling, aren't you? And the head did drop a little bit from ball one. You know, everyone's gone, oh, crikey, what's going to happen here? But, yeah, no, balled right in the second innings. I can remember Ian Healy. coming out when he was batting. I think with Tim May or someone.

And I'd got me four, I bowled an absolute ball of a century to David Boone, pitched outside leg at the top of off, and I was getting into my work. And then Ian Healy came out, and he said, right, Tufno, I'm not letting you get your Fiver.

And I sort of went, oh, okay, that's a bit up. You weren't expecting you have to let you get me five, but he made it his point, not to give me that Fiver first test match of the series, me that any of that sort of momentum or confidence and yeah I'll always remember him you know having a bit of a go at me about it but there you go it was

it was good bold all right bold all right flat pitch flat pitch can I point out who you got out actually captain Mark Taylor yeah David Boone with the ball of the century Mark War Steve War I mean it's not you're not just mopping up the tail on that no I know what I see and Healy said he said we're not they're going to let you get your fire for the tail and they didn't you know what I mean which I was a bit miffed at because that would have just given me that little bit of empress but no I mean hard work there I can also remember there used to be a a hill down there where I used to field down at third man and fine leg and about

four o'clock the sky went black with cans there was a can fight which apparently they do every day in the old ground and everyone everyone was just, everyone just sort of started lobbing cans. It was amazing sight to see. Tinnies, empties. They found they turned all their empties and then just, it was pinging off everywhere. They was all coming over into the ground as well.

So, you know, it's funny what you remember, isn't it? But it was a great atmosphere there. And a flat pitch, you said? Oh, absolutely flat pitch, yeah, good pitch. Won't be this time, I don't think. I don't think it'll be as spicy as Perth, but always that little bit of bounce. All Australian pitches, I think, from a little bit of bits and pieces I've been learning from people

are going to have this little bit of covering of grass and a little bit of help for the seamers. So, yeah, Australia feel very, very comfortable in Brisbane, you know. Well, they talk about Fortress Gabbard, but that was breached, has been breached in recent times. By the way, Shane Warn took 8 in the second inning, 8 for 71. Did he bowled Alex Stewart with that wonderful flipper? Do you remember, gone back, he's gone, bowled it short, cut him, and we've gone, yes, Al, come on Al. And then he's teed him up beautifully, and he bowled him this flipper, which he didn't really bowl. He only bowled it when he was young, really, because I think his shoulder hurt him after a while,

and he bowled this flipper to Stewie, a great player of spin, and he's gone back to cut it. And I think he still had his bat up in the air like that, as this thing has scooted past him and knocked his middle pole out, and the place went absolutely mad. Shane Warn, what a player. Two who didn't get out, though? Who? Me? Didn't get me out? No, no. I think I got... I think that's where I scored my first run. That might be my first test run, you know, in Australia.

It was. Yes, a little back foot punch off for Shane Warn. Glenn McGrath, mid-off, died full length and stopped it. Otherwise, that would have been four. Two from 25, a belligerent toughnal, not out. Was it two from 25? I think the game might have been gone by then. There was a chance.

I think Craig McDermott got a load as well. Craig McDermott got two foot in the second innings, first innings. It was six for 53 for McDermott. Tuffner was out. Caught Taylor Bold worn for an 11 ball duck in the first innings. Well, that was Phil Tuffnell with his memories of playing here in Brisbane. I mean, England's record here at the Gabber. Zoltz has not been all that clever over the last few series.

No, they'd last one here in the 1986, 87 series, a game in which Ian both have got a spectacular 100, and that's setting enough for a 2-1 series victory. But since then, seven defeats, two draws. One of the draws was a great draw when Cook, Trott and Strauss scored 517 for 1 in the second innings after England had a big first innings deficit. In the 2010-11 tour, they then won the second test in the series 3-1. The other was a rain-effective.

draw in 1998-99 Australia had much the better of that game and the margins of defeats since england won in 1986 seven two by ten wickets one by nine wickets one by 184 runs one by 227 runs and two by over three hundred and eighty runs so it's tended to go quite badly here really with that one exception you were telling england fans why there was reason for optimism well there is well there's reason for optimism if you the thing is henry as i've said many times before you can make a stat whatever you say if you treat it right so we can cherry pick these stats and if England do win in Brisbane

they've had five wins in Brisbane they had two before the Second World War at the Gabba only those two since the Second World War in 789 and 867 they also won a game with the exhibition ground they played one Ashes test here in 289 and they won the series that time as well out of their five wins in Brisbane four times

they've gone on to win the series so we can focus on it being the second test being crucial and the fact that if England wins at the Gabba it's basically in the bag historically done easy a few little thoughts from from locals who know these these parts very well matthew hayden the most obvious of them the former australian opener i'm reading what he's had to say about this ground and australians love it because it is hostile it is different he describes it as a very unique ground there's an air of arrogance and confidence at

the venue and he describes it as the most hostile environment that was possible in Australia. So that's what's waiting for England and indeed their supporters that are beginnings will arrive, hoping for a little better than those that had two days worth of action in Perth. Thank you, Henry. Thank you, Zoltz. A reminder that every ball of the men's ashes is available to listen to on BBC Sounds and five sports extra with the test at the Gabba starting at 4am on Thursday the 4th of December. Every night of the game, however long the game goes on for, Alex Hartley will be hosting the Ashes. Daily debrief on the IPlayer, where you'll also find match highlights.

And if you haven't had enough of Zults for today, test your trivia with today's Ashes Daily Quiz, available only on BBC Sounds. To find it in the Test Match special podcast feed, just search Ashes on Sounds. Thanks for listening. We'll speak to you next time. Hello, this is Matt Chawley's urgent questions, your daily dose of political mayhem from the heart of Westminster. Order, order. I call Matt Chawley. I'm a supporter of flags.

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