Test Match Special - Jos Buttler on white-ball captaincy, his Test career and The Hundred

Episode Date: August 19, 2025

Steven Finn speaks to former England white-ball captain Jos Buttler, who reflects on his time in charge of the national side.Buttler discusses the highs of winning the T20 World Cup in 2022, as well as the lows of the ODI World Cup 12 months later, and his departure after this year's Champions Trophy.Buttler also talks about feeling "unfulfilled" in his Test career, and his hopes for the rest of his cricketing career.

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you're getting a fair exchange rate with no extra markups. Be smart. Join the 15 million customers who choose Wise. Download the Wise app today or visit Wise.com. T's and C's and C's Apply. from BBC Radio 5 Live. Hello and welcome to the Test Match Special podcast with me, Stephen Finn. It's been nearly six months since Dross Butler stepped down as England's whiteball captain. He led the team to victory in the T20 World Cup in 2022, making England the first side to hold both whiteball world titles. But that was followed by disappointments at the 50 over World Cup the following year

and this year's Champions Trophy. I spoke to him about his reflections on being whiteball captain, what he thinks of his time in test cricket, and his excitement at playing in this year's 100. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. I want to start right at the beginning, though, of your career and the way that you play, like how individualistic it is. Like, how did you learn that in an era

when it wasn't that common to play as you do? Yeah, I think, to be honest, right from the start, I've always been drawn to players who did it a bit differently. So Adam Gilchrist was initial, you know, as wicketkeeper batsman, his style was quite different to the mould at the time. So I was really drawn to that. And then someone like Kevin Peterson, I loved when the way he came into English cricket and was un-English, basically. But always been drawn to those type of players, whether it's cricket or other sports. So I wanted to try and emulate that, try things, do things differently.

And I think I was quite lucky when I got onto the Somerset Academy, Jason Kerr, who's now the head coach at Sun. we'd almost start sessions with a bit of a free go at stuff like you can do whatever you want try things out half an hour of and that really suited me to know about left-handed or try different shots and stuff like that and that's sort of just married up with the way I saw the game and wanting to try and do things a bit differently or just find my own style and I've been through stages where you're trying to copy others and try and go away from that but I think basically you're just trying to be the best version of yourself and I always yeah right at the start was

sort of drawn to players who had a bit of an X factor or did things differently and did other sports influence you at times when you're younger because you're very good at everything annoyingly apart from football but you're annoyingly good at everything there other sports hockey or something influenced the way that you play some of those shots the scoops and the rounds I just liked it all the other sports anything with the ball I was into I liked just trying to trying different things and play and i think they're all mixed up together i know that people will say certain players that's a shot from this sport or it's from that sport but i think the hand-eye coordination

stuff just kind of goes across the board and but yeah i just enjoyed other sports i think there's different merits to probably specialising early or trying to have a broad view of and try everything but i was into everything i liked trying different things yes maybe there are things that cross over or can come into cricket from other sports. But really, I think if you're just playing with a ball and it's hand-eye coordination or you're trying to hit a ball, I think it all kind of just mixes into one as well. Yeah, there's a game that I actually saw you. I reckon the first time I properly watched you play innings at Lords in the 40 over final, you got 80 odd off of 50 or balls. Do you remember that and did that feel like a big innings in a final? I think

you were 20 years old at the time. Do you remember that? Yeah, I think that was against Surrey in the final and I'd had a really good season with Somerset in that role as sort of number seven coming in at the back end of innings. And yeah, that was a huge game for me as a, you know, unfortunately we lost the game, but personally to, you know, perform at that stage and on in front of a big crowd and Lord's Finals were something I used to go and watch as a kid. So that was pretty cool and that was probably just sort of getting to you know there's sort of steps in your career that okay I can do it in this environment or under this pressure or against this bowling attack so it was yeah a really important moment personally for me to you know sort of another tick in the box

and a confidence builder that okay maybe I can I can do it here maybe I can go into the next level so you get to that stage where you've done it domestically you've played in that big game at Lodge. You were then in England squads regularly but you made your T20 debut in 2011 your ODI debut soon after in 2012. Did you feel ready to step up to that level at that stage at such a young age? I felt like I had the potential and at times now when you look back you look like well they picked you so they must have believed in you but I didn't say I felt ready walking into addressing in with guys that established international players that you've idolised and actually been

young kid when they started their careers so it felt strange um it took me a good year to be honest there's probably the only credit i'll give you in this interview that you know you and morg's kind of took me under your wing and sort of showed me the ropes and looked after me um but it wasn't until i had that won over against wayne parnell um at edgebaston where um just before the t20 world cup in in Sri Lanka that uh had a good innings and that sort of gave me the belief that I think that was the moment, didn't you? Yeah, that was a big, huge moment for me. And because I sort of batted number six, seven.

I hadn't had loads of chances, really, but I hadn't done anything. And even though you've been picked and you want to prove yourself as much to the outside world and the media and the company, it's actually the guys in the dressing room that you want to walk back in and sit down next to him and they go, yeah, this guy can play or he deserves to be here. And I hadn't had that moment, really, for me up until then. So that was a big moment for me to just sort of feel like, okay, I can do it at this level against, you know, the top bowlers around the world. Who were those people in the team at the time that you felt like you had to impress? Because there were big characters, weren't there when you first came in?

Kevin Peterson, people like that. You are now clearly that player to some young guys coming into the team. Do you remember who it was that you first walked in and thought, oh man, I'm sharing the dressing room with this bloke? Yeah, I'd say the names would be Swan Peterson. Anderson, who I think was sort of like, they just seemed like otherworldly. They like as if, you know, it's like being at Madam Two Swords really. And so you're with them, but they, are they actually real?

But they were guys that I'd idolized and sort of big characters in, and even though Stuart Broad was sort of one of those guys, he was captain of the T20 side at the time. So he felt, you know, he was obviously part of the reason I got picked and putting his arm around me. So that was, was good. But yeah, I think it's sort of those players that you've, you know, have been a international for a long time as I mentioned before you and Morgs were great for me and sort of you know probably seeing a young guy just needed a bit of help and a bit of

reassurance that you deserve to be here and you've been through it you know what it feels like and that they're the kind of things now 15 years on or whatever it is I look back about how valuable that is to have a teammate just sort of be there for you and sort of just reassure you and say you know you're going to be fine it will all work out at the time it's all that yeah it's fine for you to say but um no it makes a huge difference are you aware of that as a senior player now in the team and having achieved what everything that you've done is that something that when you see a young guy come into the team you help yourself get around it and i try and think so yeah and obviously have that experience

of being captain as well um you know how important that can be and and sometimes it might not always be the captain that you find it easier to feel those words from it might be a senior player is actually easier to be more open with or be sort of, you know, this sound, because coach and the captain, you sort of want to come across as you're in control. Yeah, exactly. You don't want to show any kind of weakness and say, you know, I'm feeling a bit unsure. So, no, I think definitely it's as your career progresses, it becomes a really important part of your role. And even just talking about it now, it's something I'm like, you know, I've got to make sure in the hundred and, you know, get around a few of the younger players and sort of share some experiences. You

don't want to come across like you know everything and you sort of impose yourself but be available and actually understanding that as the more senior player and the guy who's been around a bit you might have to make the first interaction don't know you think oh my door's always open people will come to me but I remember being a young kid sort of thinking oh I'll go and ask Kevin Peterson a question is probably harder than if he just said to me how are you doing mate what's what's happening so yeah being aware of that's really key um then the natural progression you've played T20 cricket for England, you've played 50 over cricket for England, test match cricket, you played over 50 odd tests, Ash's winner, played in some really significant

series. How do you reflect on your test match career? Unfulfilled, I'd say. I think, like I said, I mentioned, I played a lot of games. I was really fortunate in a way probably to play that many, but I had periods in my test career where I felt like I was understanding how I wanted to play and being, You know, contributing well to the team to some good series wins. But I never probably had that for long enough. And I probably never, it was entirely comfortable with, like, my identity as a test cricketer, maybe, and how I was going to play. And that's only down to me, really.

I had huge support. Joe Root was brilliant captain for me. He really pushed me and believed in me. But I just felt like I never quite sort of had that. I had a couple of moments where I thought I'd understand it and I'd break through. What were those moments? A series against India in 2018. I had a brilliant IPL and I came back into the side when Ed Smith became the selector.

And I felt very in control of my game, very comfortable with how I was going to play. And it was quite an unheard of role, a specialist batter at number seven. But it was kind of a free hit for me, really, which was great. and so that was good but i just never had it for long enough consistently enough and i probably just battled myself too much i was probably too hard on myself um maybe i always sort of in one day cricket i'm always trying to dominate the bowl and i probably didn't quite work out how to do that in test cricket i was probably too reactive to the ball coming down as opposed to to trying to impose my game and being controlled but um yeah i loved test cricket i just thought

it was like the hardest exam you could do but if you did well it was more fulfilling than than any cricket you can still feel like that yeah absolutely um even recently during the blast game the test was on and jimmy and i were sort of sat next to each other and he said oh do you miss it i'm absolutely i miss it i wish i'd done better at it so i could still be playing um yeah there's something you know you're exactly the same you've experienced it and played in great test matches and it's you can't replicate that and we're very lucky in england you get so well supported you know the crowds are amazing so yeah absolutely miss it miss it immensely do you do you look at the because you say like you're very self-deprecating but you say unfulfilled do you look at this

era now the stokes and mccullerman the way that they play test cricket as you're describing it be looking to be imposing on the front foot do i mean i look at it as a bowl of myself like and I think, man, if I played in this era, I'd have had so much fun, I probably would have got more out of myself. Do you have any similar feelings with that? Oh, maybe a few times, yeah. I think, you know, there'd be a great sort of leadership group to play in, and I'd love to experience that.

But I had some great, you know, it's very easy to say that and think, oh, it's not my fault. I didn't get the most out of myself. Well, it's definitely, you can only score your own runs, and obviously you need people to help you and create the environment to do that. But I don't want to feel like I'd say, I'd be amazing if I played in this team

because I had my go, I had loads of chances and I just personally never quite cracked it and I talked about that moment at the start of that over against Wayne Parnell which was for me massive and it's like at that moment fleetingly in test cricket where I was like this is the thing

but yeah I think having worked with Brenda McCullum a little bit he would have been brilliant for me as a person and as a player to probably take away, alleviate some of the, you know, noise in my own head that can get there. So, yeah, I think that, and what I love about what they've done and what they've done with test cricket is, I think everyone, player and stuff, whether you're trying to get into that team or you've played before, you'd be like, I'd love to play on that side.

And I think that's one of the greatest credits you can give those guys, is that everyone would just be desperate to play for them. Yeah, and talking about those tougher times, and it's easy like you look on social media and everyone's lives looks amazing like an Instagram reel when you found those challenging times because you've had a very long international career now

14 years or so and still going and how how what were those tougher times can you identify any like particular flashpoints and then how did you come through it to still be a very good and better player the other side of it yeah I think you to play for as long as I think the longevity

thing is, it's the thing that probably pleases me the most to be able to still be playing and play at the high level. I think it's one of the greatest compliments you can give to sports people to be able to play for a while. And you have to have a lot of resilience to be able to do it. Cricket's a tough sport and it can be pretty unrewarding at times and, you know, you need to find ways to deal with that. So I think having good people around you and that's been a big part of it for me. Neil Fairbrothers, you know, I say he's my agent, but he's more of a mentor really and he's a friend who's really helped me in my career and looked after me over a long period of time like you say when you get those low moments sort of

rebuilding you and pushing you back up obviously family support is crucial to that and I think it's probably you know getting dropped is actually not the worst thing because you you fear getting dropped and you think you know you walk down the street and you let bet he's talking about my form or you go and order a coffee and you think I wonder if they're thinking you deserve to be dropped and you got no runs last week and then it actually happens and you get left out and you realize that yes you care and it's disappointing but it's not that bigger deal you know it's not the be-all and end-all and life still goes on it doesn't actually jails gave me a great piece of advice actually he said just because you had a bad dick cricket doesn't mean

you're a bad person and that was a big part of it for me as well just it's cricket isn't me it's just something I do and trying to manage that the emotions that come with that and sometimes time you just need a little bit of time when you get dropped or you get left out and you just need a bit of space from it and then you sort of see the you know it becomes a bit clearer again and build yourself back up yes I'm still a good player I just didn't play that well on that day or for that period of time and to know that you can come back from it and I think once you you you do come back then you feel like in a better place the next time you get back involved in that environment or and then you've got stuff to call on you know okay well you

maybe start to feel some of the feelings you had when this happened before and know maybe how to cope with it a little bit better and to to be able to just manage your feelings because you've got a lot of time as a cricketer I think you've got a lot of time to think and sometimes you can overthink stuff then psychologically through your career there was a period I can't remember exactly when it was you wrote on the handle of your bat didn't didn't you to let it go effectively in rather looser terms yeah what drew you to that

and then how much have you changed from that was that a marked moment in your career yeah that's actually the Wayne Parnell moment so Mark Borden who you know well

who was the psychologist with the England team at the time I went to him before that innings and had just said look I'm struggling a bit I just feel a bit like I haven't proved

to the rest of the guys that I can play and so he sat down and sort of he asked me a few questions about you know what is it when you feel at your best just try and describe it and i was describing a few things like i'd do with you know technically or mentally and then i basically said do you know i just walk out there and when i'm really clear and i basically say don't worry about it um and he was like that's it that's your mind that's all you should work on

is trying to get to that point is it still on your back now yeah still there yeah so um yeah it's been a real constant reminder for me and it's something something I yeah some days look at it a lot when I'm batting some days I don't even think about it but it's just a nice grounding kind of thing and it helps me deal with lots of situations whether it's in cricket and you've got out or you're worried about playing a shot or you need a bit of extra conviction to do something yeah it's just been something that um yeah it was a really helpful tool at the right time when I needed it and probably by coincidence that innings happened straight after but it's sort of when you get that relationship between okay this is my thoughts and then you have a really big moment in your career it's a really strong sort of bond between them so you progress through the england ranks you played all three formats you become a regular in all three formats um omergne morgan retires and your captain of the of the england whiteball teams that i always saw you as a natural leader and someone who led within the dressing room both like vocally and with your actions

did it feel a natural transition to go from vice captain to captain Yeah, it did. I think having been Morgs as vice captain for a long time and sort of probably being the most senior player in the side, it felt very natural that I was takeover at some point. Probably came a bit earlier than I thought, but certainly felt ready for it and obviously it's such a privilege, you know, to get to captain your country is something I was very proud to do. You know, obviously had the high of winning the T20 World Cup and then you know some very challenging times with within that as well.

Have you allowed yourself to reflect, like it's now four or five months since you step down that? Have you been able to reflect and enjoy the good times? Because that can get lost in amongst the rubbish sometimes, can't it? Yeah, I have. And I think actually it's something I've become more aware of is the more time and space I've now got from stepping down.

Yeah, reflecting on some good times and actually probably a bit more understanding and sort of the sort of cloud kind of lifts. you can see it for a bit clearer as to why things didn't go so well or things that I would maybe have done differently or things that, you know, I should have acted or different bits. I think it's just become as a bit clearer. I think when you're in it, you're kind of so determined to try and make it right and your ego can get in the way and say, you know, no, everything's fine.

I can do it. You like put a wall up around you. Yeah, absolutely. And I certainly did that. And I think that's probably one of the failings of that time in the end was like, probably just needed to need a bit more help or a bit more sort of openness with people or something like that yeah it's becoming a bit clearer i think certainly as i'm getting more more space from it and sort of understanding how i was feeling in that time and do you know what the

twenty twenty three world cup was incredibly difficult and sort of like i didn't even though we played badly we played way worse than i would think we could ever play and for that world cup to happen the way it did was probably a huge confidence shock to my captaincy and everything. Was it in the method or the fact? Just everything. Because to me, watching from the outside, you and that core of players that built between the 2015 and 19 World Cup played together a lot and clearly you get confidence with that. Between the 2019 and 2023 World Cup, you didn't have that. Do you think that was a factor? Yeah, it's a factor. It's one of many factors, I think. And that's way you sort of go actually the transition from that time of 2015 to 19 to the you know

whenever morgues was going to move move on and obviously we're all sort of a similar age bracket as well those players were you know very much in our peak at 2019 and it all worked perfect so actually when I look back and you say oh it's maybe everyone maybe assumed white ball cricket was in a great place and we'd just continue but I think actually that role of the taking it on from morgues and creating another dynasty or whatever it may be or whatever word you want to call it was going to be very difficult and it's not something I was unaware of I actually remember having a very clear conversation with Rob Key about that but it's just the way sometimes timing and things don't quite work out and we had some tricky decisions to make

along the way which maybe affected everything really and it's just I've just found it really interesting in having this time to reflect and get some space from it to go know, you know, these little things, how much of effect it can have. What little things? Oh, just sort of, you know, relationships between, you know, the coach and captain or certain players or how to manage, you know, one very difficult selection was sort of around Harry Brooke and Ben Stokes and sort of that we had sort of 16 to get into 15 and, you know, even the way now I reflect on how that sort of few weeks pre World Cup would have maybe affected the

whole group going into the World Cup and stuff like that so yeah it's just sometimes there's like little moments that through no fault of your own and at the time you're doing the best with the information you've got yeah I think you know maybe there was a bit of a misalignment for for people and and sort of you know it just didn't go into that tournament with thinking maybe everything was as rosy as the series victory against New Zealand sort of made it look. Was there one particular thing when you decided to step down? Was there one particular thing that you thought, I've just had enough of this, I don't

need this in my life anymore? Not don't lead it in your life, but you like the one thing that made you just think, do you know what, I think I'd be better off for myself not to do this? I just thought my race was run, to be honest, from having been involved, like I mentioned, in that 20-23 World Cup as captain the 20-24 T-20 World Cup even though we got to the semi-finals was you know sort of it felt like from the outside that wasn't really good enough and we said oh we only beat X, Y and Z to get there and I just knew for my captaincy we'd need to do really well in that champions trophy and win some games and obviously McCollum had just come

in as the coach of everything and I was really excited to work with Baz but we'd had a tough series in India which can happen they're pretty good at home and i just knew that more so for me and then more so for like the outside world we'd have to do well straight away to sort of validate me continuing as captain because i was sort of the only one left from all the time before so i i just knew that it was the right time for me to sort of get out the way and and sort of take that but and i just think my yeah like i said my race was run i think comes the time in leader where you probably think you've had some moments that haven't gone like you want them to and it does a it just takes away from the power of your leadership you know you just feel like you're not delivering the messages with the same conviction or you're not got the same level of respect because I always felt respected from the guys but just like well what we've been talking about or you've been trying to drive forward just hasn't quite work so it just felt right the right time to to move on and yeah I feel obviously sad to step down but obviously privileged to have done it it's a great and a world cup yeah exactly so

you have to remember yeah exactly and that's a very special time and you know the thinking about that tournament was was awesome so yeah it's just probably the for me the big big one was that 2023 world cup in india was was a real uh kicking the teeth and sort of a confidence knock as as a captain um so you step down as captain you then go to the iPL you have one of your best IPLs ever averaging 60 striking at 160 your relationship with franchise cricket has always fascinated me because you Kevin Peterson Owen Morgan guys who've consistently played it have always said how positively that has impacted your game and your and your wider game seven IPL hundreds like is that true that you feel as though playing in the IPL makes you a

clearly better player yeah franchise tournaments in general the IPLs have had a huge impact on my career I remember you talk about like moments in your career where you sort of sort of light bulb moment or something my first ever IPL was sort of like there's something different about the best players their mentality is different there's it was just clear and obvious so in the IPL all the best players in the world are all in the same place at the same time and one of the best things I've always enjoyed doing is just watching and just noticing and at the IPL you get to train obviously with the guys in your team some of the best players in the world and two teams are training at the same

time so you can watch the opposition practice as well and there's just a clear difference in the mentality and of all the I'm talking like the top percent of the the players and that was a big moment right I need to try and get to that I want that I want to be that I want to be the best player in the world so that was one moment and then again sort of like 2018 I think it was my first year with Rajstand Royals I remember you're like I had this moment I was like how come it's coli's day every day you know like he had an amazing tournament and just sort of maybe the 2016 tournament I think he scored 900 and something runs but you'll see the interviews a bit oh today was just my day everything worked for me and it's like well can't just be you know why is it coli's day

every day and it can't just be because he's technically better or something you know it's again coming into that mentality thing so I at that age being 27 I think I was I spent a lot more time on the mental side of the game. And that being at the IPL there was something that I really worked hard on that. Sort of understanding how I could, yeah, I've got all the things I want technically or talent, etc.

But how can I build that within the game? And one thing, the IPL does is sort of demystify people, you know? So suddenly you're playing with some players that you thought were the best players in the world and they never have a negative thought and sat in a dressing room with them when they get out and they're berating them

like you know the same and they're worried about the you know the game coming up and you're sort of like okay these guys are normal as well so yeah franchise cricket's been brilliant for me the IPL has been you know amazing for me to rub shoulders with all these players and the coaches that you come across and it also puts a lot on you as the player to turn up at a franchise team and the coach yeah so yeah as an overseas player you've got huge expectation and the coach says what do you want how do you need to prepare so you need to know the answers to that you say okay this is what I need from you this is

how I get the best out of myself. This is how I'm going to give the best to the team. And so that's been a big part of my sort of understanding of me as a person and a player to then be able to travel the world and go, I can dip into different tournaments and perform well. So we're in the fifth year of the 100 competition. You didn't manage to play a game last year because of a bit of old man's calf, which all of us have fallen foul of at some stage. Are you excited to get out there in an English franchise competition that feels like it's quite a big thing? Yeah, absolutely. I've loved the 100. I think it's been brilliant. It's been, you know, like I say, having played in different competitions around the world and seen the sort of impact that the franchise things have had and the sort of crowds and the standard of cricket. I mean, it's exactly what you want on your own doorstep. So, yeah, to be able to go out there and play that home in front of the big crowds and obviously with just eight.

teams and the condensed talent, which we have a lot of in England. So it's a tournament as well when you talk to other players around the world. They're all desperate to come and play in. So I think it's a really exciting time for the 100. Love to be involved. Obviously missed it last year with an injury, which is a shame. So yeah, looking forward to it even more so probably this year. And you've got a young whippersnapper, wildcard James Anderson.

He played with him domestically, but it's good to see him still going. Yeah, amazing. And I know lots of people are like, oh, why is Jimmy? carrying on, he's done so much in international cricket, but playing with him, he just genuinely loves cricket and he loves competing and he obviously is competing and doing it well. And he feels like he's getting better, yeah, and he feels like he can still do it. So it's been amazing actually, just play some blast games with him and skill levels obviously still there and how much he just loves, you know, trying to contribute to the team and when,

and he's also been amazing in the dressing room I've noticed, you know, I mentioned the start of my international career. I thought Jimmy was quite an intimidating guy. He could be. If you misfielded one off him or he don't pass the ball to him correctly, you might not speak to you for a week or so. But he's been amazing to see him in the dressing room with some of the young Lancashire lads.

And sort of they're all getting to hang out with Jimmy Anderson, which is quite like surreal, I think, for them. And obviously he's just, he's got a real passion to help. He wants to get into coaching, I think, at some point. And coach players, not just be like a Jimmy Anderson. and who, you know, is there to sort of, you know, take a mitt. He actually wants to really make an impact. And I think he's been doing that even while he's now playing as well as he's, you know, doing his own stuff.

He's, it's being pretty cool for the guys to have him in the dressing room. So Josh Butler, 50 over World Cup winner, T20 World Cup winner, Ash's winner, IPL winner. What is it that keeps you going and keeps you motivated now? You're young and you're fit and you will play for a significant period of time. but what's that one burning light that keeps you going? I think competing is one thing I love doing. I love getting out there trying to win games of cricket. And I think also batting is one of those things

that you're trying to sort of master it and you never will, or maybe other people do. But it always keeps you coming back for more. What can I add to my game? How can I improve? What can I do better or sort of different shots that I might try? Even recently, I never used to run down the wicket much to Seamus

and it was a conversation with Kumar Sangakari said, you know, you could add this to your game. So that's something I've been really working on. I like having something to go to practice every day that I'm intrigued to find out more about or have a passion to get better at. And I think when that stops, because the games will take care of themselves, because you sort of have been playing in front of a crowd and there's a big game and you want to win and compete. But I think the love of practice is the thing that I still have very much so, just I really enjoy batting.

see it now that like looking through your grill tapping your bat on the floor it's like kind of your sadly is your sort of happy place you know ready to try and whack one yeah looking your lips because Stephen Finn's bowling at you yeah so now I think as long as that's still there I'll be I'll be sort of really keen to keep going as long as I can but also you know you don't want to just sure I don't want to do a disservice or anything to your team you know if that isn't there and you just have to be honest with yourself I guess and say you know maybe but it's certainly very strongly still there at the moment, so that's a big plus for me.

This is the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. He scored goals, lifted trophies and broken records along the way. There it is. It's a day to remember for Wayne Rooney. And now he's got a podcast. Welcome to the Wayne Rooney show. Twice a week, Wayne Rooney, Kay Curd and me, Kelly Summers, break down the biggest stories in the Premier League and beyond. As much as you'd like to say it,

Loyalty in football now is just non-existent, whether that's fun players or managers. Plus, we'll hear the funniest, wildest and most outrageous stories from Wayne's career. The Wayne Rooney show. Everybody's talking about it. Listen on BBC Sounds. The following advertisement feature is presented by GoTurkia. Most travellers only scratch the surface of Turkey. The real Turkey is found on a detour.

Plan your next trip to southeastern Anatolia to witness a colour. crossroads, surprising history and adrenaline-fueled mountain trails. The southeast of Turkey is home to what the country might be most famous for. Food. In Gaziantep, taste the flavors that makes it a UNESCO-recognized, creative city of gastronomy. Eat Baclova in the home of Baclova. Eat pistachios in the home of the pistachio. High up UNESCO recognised Mount Memorot, where history is larger than life, literally,

where giant statues were built by a king who wanted to be remembered for eternity. It worked, as his head is up there, set in stone, 2,000 years later. And take a tour around one of civilisation's biggest mysteries, Gobeckley-Tupang. Nobody knows who built these stunning settlements. Historians predict it was built more than 11,000 years ago, before farming, the invention of the wheel, but somehow it was built. Who done it? If you want to get more from your holiday and skip the beach and crowds,

take a detour to southeastern Anatolia and discover more about the world in Turkey.