Test Match Special - Katherine Brunt and Anya Shrubsole on their retirement from Test Cricket

Episode Date: June 28, 2022

Henry Moeran speaks to two of the all time greats of women's cricket. Anya Shrubsole and Katherine Brunt discuss their retirement from International Test cricket and their careers throughout the years.

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a debutant with us which is very exciting and also a very special guest joining us today i'm very pleased to say that alongside us for this lunch break two of england's finest bowlers two of the finest bowlers women's cricket has seen one has retired from all formats that is you and your shropsoll one has just retired from test match cricket and i believe i may have heard just a noise or two from the crowd yesterday from a very eager supporter katherine brunt lovely to have you with us. You have not retired from all formats, just test match cricket, but you are here watching on and enjoying the action. Now tell me about yesterday as a supporter. How was it? It was nice to be on the other side of it, to be fair. Just about to relax and not have to worry

about my body breaking in half for a few hours was lovely and relaxing. Well, let's go through exactly where we've got to in terms of both of your careers. Because, Annie, you made the decision post World Cup final, that that was it. You'd done your service and you'd made that call. When did you come to that decision? I probably knew it was very much on the cards before we headed out to Australia for the Asher series, to be honest. Yeah, when we came back into training after the summer,

it had been kind of late October, November, I kind of probably then started to think about it, and kind of thought, well, we've got an ashes coming up. We've got a World Cup coming up. Just give this one more kind of push to kind of get to there and see how that goes. But I think I knew before I headed out on that tour that that was almost certainly going to be my last.

Did you know, Catherine, that Annie was thinking about retiring? We both talked about retirement about five years ago and I continued for about once a month since then. Yeah, we both know, you know, the thoughts are there as you're creeping up, the age is creeping up, the years on board are creeping up, and, you know, some tours are harder than others, and they do make you rethink, but with Annie, she gave me the honour of letting me know before most, which is lovely, because obviously we've been through a lot together and, yeah, it's obviously very sad information. and knowing that that would be the last tour I got to, you know, share the field with her. It was really sad, but, you know, good that I knew so I could enjoy it to it full.

What was your reaction? Were you surprised when you heard? No, like I said, we both had thought about it for a long time. And she's been, you know, she played from a younger age than me, I don't know, two, three years and it feels like I've been playing forever. so we have I think when you play from that younger age does you know feel like you've it's your whole life um Holly Colvin um Sarah Taylor both started when they were 16 as well so yeah it I wasn't surprised no but um I was just happy that she was happy with her decision

and um and has played incredible throughout the entirety of it we'll get through some of the The details of that career, Anja, as we go through this lunch break. But how was that final day as an England cricketer, the World Cup final in Christchurch? How was it possible to focus on the context of the game when you knew that it was the last time you'd be singing the national anthem and playing for England? Well, I actually found the lead up to the semi-final harder because I was like, well, this could be my last game or this could not be my last game. And I know, well, nobody really likes uncertainty, but I absolutely hate it. So at least I knew with the final that whatever happened, come rain or shine, that was going to be it. And it was quite hard in the lead up to the game, quite tough standing there, singing the anthems and things like that.

And then, kind of once you get out there and get going, you kind of forget about that. And then by the end of what was a pretty bruising 50 over, so I was, oh, thank God, I don't have to bowl at these again. That's not a lot of fun. being whacked around Christchurch by Alyssa Healy. So, yeah, I think obviously once the lead-up to the game and then obviously post-game was tricky, there's no getting away from that. But once you're out there, it's game of cricket, really.

Is it fair to say that the women's game, Catherine, in some ways you are more of a family just by the nature of how professionalism started where there was a group of players that became professional. And so it really was a sort of quite clear group of 20 or so that were so, so close to one another. So there is perhaps more of a sense of famine. Yeah, like, well, obviously because we weren't professional for so long and because the money wasn't there, the people coming through weren't there either.

So year in, year out, it's not like right now, obviously, there's quite a big new influx of kids. So before there was, it was just us 15 every year for years. so of course that same group of girls being together week in week out you have that really close-knit environment everybody's everybody's mate and yeah you do create that family so it is it is things become more emotional you know you're closer to it I guess than more than other places because we don't really go off to our domestic teams either we literally do spend all our time together all the time which is also not great I just want to have a bit of quiet time

I'll get away and see my own family it's a funny old world though isn't it because touring life is a strange experience and that tour to Australia and then New Zealand I mean that was savage it was it was tough because there's

quarantine bubbles as the restrictions that you're facing within it yeah one of the things that well I definitely found the hardest was there was just so much unknown we went out to us I mean it and it pretty much came from the start. We went out to Australia, having had to basically put any Christmas,

New Year plans of any kind on hold so as not to get COVID and get on that charter flight to Australia. And then we went out there thinking we were going to get one set of restrictions as they were, landed in Australia to find out that cricket Australia had changed them whilst we were in the air. So we spent the first two days, I think, arguing about with various boards, with various restrictions. So that's the first two days of a three-month tour. So you kind of have that. And then we went into quarantine in New Zealand that we thought was going to be one length of time. Then it was a different length of time. So you have that as a backdrop to an Ashes and a World Cup, which are two of the hardest tours you can kind of be a part of. So it was tough and it was

Bruce, it's the longest tour that any of us will ever have been on and if you're not used to it, it's really tricky. How did you keep performance levels up? Particularly, I'm thinking

that stage in the World Cup when you lost to South Africa, three defeats in three. Yeah, I mean, everybody can't be informed all the time. A lot of us are definitely used to being informed consistently.

I'd like to say myself and I know pride ourselves on that part of our careers is that we had consistency so going into tornos like myself I was completely out of form but for a stretch of time so it was that was you know for me as unknown territory so for it to go on normally it goes on for three weeks you have a break you sort it out you come back that next three weeks you're the opposite you're much better then you're another three weeks away and then you go back on but it was three weeks on followed by three weeks on followed by three weeks on so there's

no getting away if you were in any kind of bad touch it was just ongoing so it was just you know like annie said the most mentally and physically savage four months of our of our careers today but that's that's the way cricket's going there is there is no hiding i guess from that but i think what got us through was just the sheer fight and determination from each individual and if we were going to do it really messy and really ugly then so be it um but yeah it was just about that in the end. What about you two as a bowling partnership? How would you and your first of all describe how you two operated in tandem? I think both with our with our skill set and what we delivered and with our I guess our personality and our kind of character we're we're pretty

opposite to be honest with you. Obviously Catherine swings the ball away and then gets the ball to it back in and I swing the ball in and try and get the ball to nip away every now and then. And Catherine's very much someone who needs to kind of get into the battle really needs to, I guess, be quite extroverted with the way that she is on the pitch and that's how she gets the best out of her. And I'm the complete opposite. I'm quite introverted, kind of think things through if I'm getting into a bit of a firefight with something, something's gone horribly wrong. So, but I think by virtue of playing together so much and bowling so much, we've really learned how to get the best out of each other. And I definitely,

found it really helpful to have Catherine there at mid on mid off as a sounding board as someone to kind of get me out of my own head if I'm starting to overthink and things like that and I would like to think I was able to do the same for for her at mid on and mid off and I think that was a relationship that really developed over the years I think to start with we probably both looked at each other and thought what I was looking at going what is what is she doing and Catherine probably looking at me going what is this person that just thinks all the time what is she doing? But over the years, I guess we've really taken time to understand how each other works

and how we can get the best out of each other. And I think probably the last, and that is something that's happened over, what, the 14 years that we've bowled together. Does that sound about right? Spot on, yeah. Yeah, I agree with the, like, when you're complete opposite ends of the spectrum, in terms of personality and bowling, like, it does take a lot of time to really get each other um and we and we did we just always what happened on the pitch was just extremely

natural and then what came after the talking bit i'm not really i used to just go like this too but sometimes like annie having annie there to talk to is always brilliantly reassuring like that you're you're going the right way you're okay you don't have to try something new just keep bowling your best ball etc it's always and we never needed much input there's only little tiny bits now and then but um yeah it just always works so well You find bowling maidens, and he's taking wickets. You find he's taking bowling maidens, I'm taking wickets. And, you know, and it would be one way or the other.

I love that because that's what you need. That's absolutely what you need for my partner. And would you, you know, of an evening, say, right, we're bowling against Alyssa Healy and Meg Lanning tomorrow. Great. Let's work out some plans here and how this is going to work. A little bit. It's obviously, because we bowl so differently,

our plans are completely different. How I'm probably trying to get them out is very different. how Catherine would try and get them out. But yeah, I think for me it was as much kind of in the game and having that sounding board and having that person who kind of understands when you're a bit under the pump and getting whacked, having that person who's experienced that

and knows how that feels and knows how to help you through that. I don't care what you're saying, this isn't me having a dig at butters. If you haven't stood at the end of the mark whilst you're getting pumped, you don't know how that feels. It's a horrible feeling. When you're thinking I haven't got, either I haven't got a clue where this is going or wherever I put this, it's disappearing.

So having someone there who you can kind of talk to, know how that feels and help you through that moment, I've always found really valuable. And like I said, we've obviously had that over the last, however many years. On that, your battle last year, Catherine, with Sheffali Verma was one of the more entertaining competitions. Do you relish that, you know, getting really. into it and really feeling that fight. I do love a like Annie said and Sarah Taylor

used to champion that she used to want me to be like that more and more and more the captain's always wanting to be less and less and less especially the coaches so there is a point where I boil over and it doesn't become useful but there's certainly a sweet spot where I need to be

in a battle and I need you know to have that aggression with the person I'm in this actual battle with and sometimes like I said sometimes I really can't what happens is just really natural and I'm just rolling with it and sometimes I really struggle to you know rain in I'm like katherine calm down but sometimes I really don't see it there's no one it's like everything's fine there's nothing going on here and then I watch it back and I'm like oh god that's so embarrassing you see the steam coming out of your ear yeah and I'm like you need to just calm

yourself it's actually embarrassing and your parents probably watching thinking that I'm really ashamed of her right now, but I love it as well. Like that whole thing with her, what you were seeing from me was actually a massive emotional reaction. Like, I was feeling, like, there's this 16, 17-year-old kid.

And she's, she started the series by whacking people, and I'm like, oh, I'm damned if you do. Like, you're not doing that here. Instead of, you know, any other emotion. So when she starts doing it, it's like a personal attack. And you're like, but then you forget. And people,

people forget. She was the number one batter T20 in the world. She was no mug. It was not a child there. That was a, you know, a woman who reached the top of our rankings very quickly and deserved, you know, the respect. And to be honest, I was seeing that as a compliment to her, but people weren't seeing it that way. If I get like that with you as a batter, that's a compliment. if I was just going me if I got you out and went me like that's because I thought you know that's what I should be getting I should be doing that anyway so yeah a funny period of time that was not one I wish to go through again well let's go back to the to the start then because women's cricket is in a very different place particularly for you Catherine having started

earlier how would you for those that maybe have followed the game more recently how would you describe what it was like in those early days for you as a player strange well luckily I missed wearing a skirt and buying my own um like suit and

clothes to play in by about a year that seems inconceivable it's ridiculous isn't it but I was still in the area where we were wearing the men's actual kit and I was drowning in it

because it was so big um but you were just like it's not unlike now you were just so we're grateful for everything. Like, I'm not saying we're not grateful now. We're not at all.

It's just, now it's expected. It is a very strange, like, I enjoyed my cricket more then, if you're not. But that's because I was at home three quarters of the year, albeit not being paid any money, but I had that. But being a kid, you don't really worry about money, do you? It's only when you get older and you've got enormous bills to pay, that you start worrying about that and things. So, yeah, the difference in.

what's expected of you and worrying about your security for your here and now but the future as well it just changes the thing it's like a massive game changer you're not just playing as a hobby

you're playing you know for your life that's a bit dramatic but do you know what I mean it's your livelihood yeah yeah yeah so yeah I don't know how Annie feels about the whole situation oh well I mean I made my

debut my first ever game I played for England was at Shenley and there was probably most of the crowd was various members of my family who had come to watch and then you see in 2020 World T20 final at the MCG with with 85,000 people watching or whatever it was and I mean it's the biggest contrast you could you could wish to see and but I still really think it's kind of just scratching the surface to be honest with you I think are so much further the game can go and it's just risen so much in what is a really short period of time and a little bit like Catherine said in lots of ways I feel really privileged to have been involved with women's cricket with England over such a period of change like

no one else will play over a period that the likes of me and Catherine have played from literally amateur you'd be hard push to call it semi-professional to professional not many people get that kind of opportunity to actually experience it from within and it wasn't without his challenges, but I can't feel very lucky to have been involved in that. On those special days, you mentioned the 84,000 at the MCG in in 2020. Let's go back to 2017 and Lords. I'll speak to you at a moment, Ania, about that. But Catherine, that as a day, aside from what happened on the field, felt huge for the women's game.

It was a very surreal day. I think leading up to that there's nothing really outside of the bubble that I was in so I wasn't really taking information to be honest so like I didn't actually know how many people would be there or what kind of spectacle would be putting on until we walked in there so just standing in the change room on the balcony while there's a woman floating around on a balloon

and you know suddenly there's not 2,000 people what we used to was like 10 and then 15 and then 20 I was like, oh hell, like, this is a big deal. Like, I knew it was, I woke up fine with the big deal, but until you know quite what's going on outside of yourself, you know, really quite now. And then, and then suddenly you're like, oh, right, this is a big deal. Now, you know, I can't say the word myself.

And, yeah, the whole day was just, it just unfolded as it was meant to be. It was a very strange day, but, I mean, you just couldn't expect what happened and for the way that day panned out and the things that happened to happen. It was an incredible day to be a part of and, yeah, I don't know if you could beat that.

I mean, even though we're retired and things are getting better and better, I still don't think you could, in your career, even if you started your career now, as Izzy Wong, and played 15 years, you still wouldn't get any bigger than that. That's like the biggest, and we were a part of that and, yeah.

as an occasion ania how was it that day and walking out in front of a full house at the home of cricket I think it's as cringy as it is it's kind of what it's a little bit what dreams are made of really I think any World Cup is special but to have the opportunity to play it in your home country to have to be able to play the final at lords which is arguably the most iconic venue in world cricket

and also for especially from definitely for me and I think I speak on behalf of most of the girls to be able to have that day with with so many friends and family there obviously overseas world cups are great and they're also amazing to be a part of but it's there's plenty of people who can't come and watch because of the very the very nature of it being abroad so to have so many family and friends there who could who were there watching and then could join in the the celebrations and be a part of that day it just felt like it meant so much more and I definitely felt that and and I know a lot of the girls were the same as well.

Did you still believe before those wickets started tumbling, Catherine? I did, and I don't, I hate people saying when, like, when they question that I say that I did. Because you just don't know unless you're in it, I mean, it obviously would, if you looked at the board and took it factually, as a critic, critique, if you like, you'd be like, oh, God, there's no way. Like, they only need, what did they need? It was so. It was 30-odd runs with six in pounds. And you're getting that all day, aren't you?

But I've been in too many finals where the most horrific things have happened and you're like, how on earth? And we were on the less, I guess, nerve-wracking side of that. We were still, you know, feeling sick and nervous and anxious and all the... I mean, just look what happened to some of us in the field, like it will never happen again. But those things happen in finals.

And that's what makes them great. as well. Cricket's a funny game, isn't it? Yeah, it is. And talk us through that spell. Six for 46 in that final. Yeah, I think, well, I came back on and the first two balls got hit for two-fours.

And I probably had a moment then where I was like, oh, it's not going to be our day. But I don't know, like Catherine said, it pressured us funny things. We managed to prize out Hounam route with, well, what was basically a straight ball that she missed. and it just, I think then,

I won't bigger up too much, she's not in here, then hardly got a wicket the next over and then we got two wickets the over after, so we went from being out of it to getting four wickets in three overs. And then at that point, I was like, well, we're just not going to lose

because they had at no point in that World Cup had they really been under pressure, whereas we'd had a tight game against Australia, a really tight semi-final, and we'd come through those and... They'd also not had any. everybody in their lower order back. Exactly, bat.

And then suddenly they were coming in in the most high pressure of situation. So you always felt like you were in the game. And we had such a big momentum swing that I then went from thinking we were probably going to lose to feeling like we were definitely going to win within three overs. I remember walking around the outfield here, Anya, interviewing you about two months later during the KSL. And Catherine, you might know this part of how Anja is as a cricketer. and I asked about that drop from Jenny gun he mentioned players doing funny things

and I said Ania how did you feel about that at that moment she looked at me like I was an absolute wally and said well I thought I was going to bowl it straight and bowl with the next ball which is exactly what happened I mean we're both you know I'm never going to say we're happy about anyone dropping a catch up our bowling never but Annie was in such a like trance

that I don't she honestly didn't care like it's weird but that one time I don't think she cared because she was so like focused on what she was doing and trusted what was coming out that I don't think she

doubted what she could keep doing it was just going to keep happening no matter what no matter if Jenny dropped it or not dropped it or Heather or I you know she'd get eventually I'll take it into my own hands and that's what I mean when I say trance

that sounds about right though I mean it looked like as soon as that catch went down you look the calmest person there. Yeah, just like everybody calmed down. Well, I just, like they still needed nine to win, which in the context of that game was an enormous amount of runs. And they'd run to the number 11s on strike.

And I just think if you're not going to be confident about getting someone out when you've just got five wickets, four wickets in a spell, quite quickly with number 11 on strike, I mean, you're never, ever, ever in your life going to be confident. So just kind of, it would have been a different. different story if it was three to win or four to win because then you just get a little nick that goes for four but i just i don't know it the game had just swung so much nine runs was still so many to get that you like i don't know i just i felt like it didn't matter the end of that game that the familiar pictures

that the moment that that saw you on the front cover of of wisdom you know arms outstretched celebrating we're so used to those images but the one person that doesn't feature katherine is you for some of them because you're away from the group and you've sort of curled up in a ball. Oh dear. And it was obviously a hugely emotional moment. Yeah, it was. Yeah.

Kind of struggle to talk about it now still, actually. I just felt like this whole boatload of emotion all in one big go. And it was just like, bam. And where's this come from? Oh, Christ, I don't know what to do. I would just fall on the floor. Like Annie said, you can't really...

The family were literally below us and you only have to take one look and you can see their face and they like lived every second of that with us but the six weeks prior to that day was enormously hard. It was such hard work. We started off by game belted by India at Derby

and then it was that massive reality check and then a huge amount of hard work, and it was just constant putting, put in, putting, put in. Because we were playing on really good tracks. There were such high scores, loads of runs being scored. And, like, I don't know about any, but for myself, like, as a bowler in that tournament, it was tough mentally, physically,

to keep picking yourself up, keep going, keep going, and delivering again and again and in front of what ended up being millions of people watching. So, yeah, it was just this enormous occasion that like I said out your bubble weren't really pain and then all of a sudden it was like boom we've done this incredible thing and that was my most natural reaction

was just a fall for I kind of wish I'd jumped on everyone being in those great pictures but oh well there's nothing you can do in the circumstance you react how you react I had no legs what's your memory at that moment

Anya I guess it's really hard to put it into words I guess because like Catherine says it's kind of everything you work towards and everything at the back end of that game just happened so fast and I just mostly remember

it's obviously euphoria and then I just kind of remember like obviously going off and seeing all the support staff and everything like that and more than anything else I was just in disbelief to be honest with you about what had just happened because for most of that game we were losing and then suddenly we end up winning a World Cup final

so yeah euphoria final. followed by disbelief, I think, to be honest with you. And then I remember being really hungry because I hadn't eaten lunch and I was suddenly starving. I said, oh my God, I'd eat some food. You never eat lunch on those days. It's a so sad bowling second.

Lord missed out on a Lord's lunch. Of course. Yeah, of course. Well, that's the joy of joining the media. Never miss out. You can never miss out, and you can just watch on and tell them exactly how they should be playing. It's much easier from up here.

So we now look, I suppose, of where the game is now. and the idea of 28,000 people at Lords seem ridiculous ahead of that final but now the 100 has seen huge crowds for the women's matches and actually these players coming through it is quite normal for them to be playing in front of thousands Yeah I mean I would go on it about it a few times

It was hilarious but Emma Lam's face On that first opening game of the 100 And she's not like a fresh young sister She's been around a few years and the way she looked at it to be honest is the way I was looking at it watching on TV back at home I was like oh

this is the hundred because obviously we'd been chatting about it and there's been this big enormous amount of talk behind it for the two years leading up to it because there was obviously it got delayed but I was like you know I wanted to keep my thoughts to myself

until it happened and then it happened and it was like oh this is huge it's literally huge fireworks DJ enormous crowds, lots of noise and then this new featured game of cricket and it was just like wow this is actually really cool I want to be a part of this still

And have you seen that the younger guys for whom this is now normality and reality they are taking it in their stride and it just becomes part of being a modern female professional cricket Yeah absolutely and I think the game's all the better for it I remember when I played first game on England

first game for England on TV and I remember thinking oh like if I drop a cat and I think I dropped a catch and I was like oh it's on TV like it's going to be there for it like it just was so it was just an added pressure to an already very pressurised situation whereas for these girls that's just totally normal now and it's one less thing for them to think about when they go out and play and it really I felt like probably players coming into international cricket before were probably a bit ill prepared from that from that sort of perspective and you're properly learning on the job whereas

these girls come in really prepared for what that's about and you obviously can't replicate playing for your country that is something additional but you don't have to worry about that plus also playing on TV for the first time plus playing in front of crowd for the first time that's all totally normalised. How proud are you of the journey that the women's game has been on in the time that you've been international cricketers?

I wish it had happened faster but you know it's not the way it works like obviously good things come to those who wait and we've been very patient and very good servants to the game and being as professional as we possibly could be even when we weren't I'm extremely happy we're here and that people are starting to naturally enjoy what we do because before sometimes it felt a bit forced and that they weren't actually being genuine with their comments but now it just really is great to watch and and the skill level and the way that it's gone forward is enormous.

You just have to look at our World Cup final with Australia. It's obscene. And being a part of those sort of changes in the way the game's being played has definitely helped us get to a stage like where we're at now. Like this stage is the right stage. Does it feel, Andy, like women's cricket is at that perfect position where it can absolutely skyrocket from here? Yeah, I reckon so

and I guess the big thing for me is for the game globally is you just really hope that individual countries' boards keep investing, keep pushing women's cricket. You obviously have England and Australia kind of leading the way and I just really hope that countries around the

world start to or continue to really kind of push their women's game because there are some immensely talented cricketers around the world and they deserve a platform on a showcase to show that and I think the game in England's in a really good place. I think the game globally is in a pretty good place. But there is, there's always more it can go and I think everything's heading in the right

direction and you just want to keep pushing it to be even better. A word on Nat, Catherine. It's a special day a few weeks ago with the long awaited wedding. How was it? It was, well, without being cringe, it was like the best day in my life. And I always thought, why do people always say that? there's so many other days. But it exceeded all of my expectations and was just better than I ever thought it could be. It was like, well, I, you know, I love searching for perfection, and it was perfect.

Like, yeah, but everything, see, I've definitely got PSD, like, post-traumatic, sorry. I'm on the way down now, I'm like, oh, I want it to be great every day. But no, it was a brilliant, well, worth the weight. Yeah. And you're continuing to play

white ball cricket for England. What's the aim for you in terms of what you want to still achieve? Because you've done it all. Yeah. I do ask myself that also. Well, I always

wanted to be a part of this Commonwealth game. Like growing up watching the fast bowlers in test matches was exhilarating for me. And watching the Olympians in the Olympics was exhilarating for me and the thought of having a little medal was just a little bit too big of a carrot so I just couldn't I couldn't finish before that time the ashes would have been brilliant

to go out on but yeah it wasn't right I just I had such a strong feeling towards that that I yeah I and I promised my brother as well that I would go there so I'm I'm quite keen to get there now I'm pretty much there yeah and And then beyond that, will we see at the 220 World Cup next year? That is definitely there in my head. Whether I get there or not, we'll see. Boy, if I have an incredible Commonwealth Games, and I've got a gold medal around my neck.

Anything will be possible. Anything possible. Players and umpires heading back onto the field, just before we let you go, a simple question. Anya, what would be the thing you'd like to say to Catherine as a teammate for so long? What did she bring to your career? Oh, I just, I think

she's someone who's so professional, so dedicated to what she does and she just kind of wants to, you kind of feel like you want to go with her and she's been an incredible teammate, an incredible bowler in her own right and she's been someone who's led this attack for the whole time that I've played and done it with a plon. Catherine, what about that here? She's my perfect dance partner. And I'm, you know, without getting too sad she was.

whoopsie I do miss her that's all I've got to say this is the TMS podcast BBC 5 live the voice of sport from the first serve to game set and match

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