Test Match Special - Katherine Sciver-Brunt’s farewell

Episode Date: August 21, 2023

Mark Chapman is joined by Phil Tufnell, Steven Finn and Henry Moeran as we say goodbye to Katherine Sciver-Brunt, as she retires from professional cricket. Her former England teammate Tammy Beaumont joins the team as we reflect on Katherine’s successes. Steven also talks about his retirement from professional cricket, his knee-injury, and Finn’s Law. Plus we discuss Ben Stokes, after he announced that he’ll play in England’s series against New Zealand that begins next Wednesday.

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Welcome to the Test Match Special podcast. I'm joined by Phil Tufnal, Stephen Finn, and Henry Moran, as we say goodbye to Catherine Siverbrun, as she retires from professional cricket. We had hoped that we'd see her playing her final game today for Trent Rockets, but a hip injury kept her out, and she knew after her last match that her time was up. Because I've been putting myself through a lot of pain and discomfort

for the last couple of games, it wasn't worth doing it over a dead rubber again. And so it was the only thing to do, really. So it's a shame, but it is what it is. When you're crook, you crook. How are you feeling right now? Yeah, I get asked that a lot, actually. And the answer is I don't really know.

Like, I feel sad, I guess. And I also feel relieved because it is hard being, you know, 38 and still trying to compete with these teenagers. And like my mentality is that I always want to play, like, what I remember at my best. And even though if I trained 100%, I watched my diet, did my fitness better than everyone, and I bowled, you know, six, seven, eight weeks in a row for tournaments,

I could still be great. I truly believe that, but that's a nice place to be. So I haven't got the keenness that you do as an 18-year-old to do that, and I don't want to warm up, and I don't want to live out of a bag anymore. So, yeah, I just want to, get on with the next phase of my life and unfortunately that is probably

living cricket through Natalie for a bit longer but yeah just see what the world has to offer with the other side of me 19 years ago to the day you made your test debut, your England debut in front of a small crowd today you wave goodbye to professional cricket in front of 12,000 it's been some ride

is that actually true? That's funny isn't it? I didn't know that at all so that's literally probably a man and his dog with some fishing chips watching this crowd is literally packed and they didn't like we've had double headers for a fair few years now and they always used to be you know dotted around and not really in much of an atmosphere but we were grateful now they're packed and making tons of noise and getting right behind you and it's just like that's

great that's the new norm and that's that's gonna take some getting used to I think do you recognize your own significance as part of that journey the words you've spoken publicly the work you've done behind the scenes and all of this that is the effort of so many people that have played over the last 15, 20 years? No, not really, because I've lived every day and every second of it for so many years that I think if I'd have looked at it in five-year increments, I could have maybe said, yeah. I'm proud of what I've done and the people I've helped nurture into the game and make professional.

I'm glad for the thing, happy for the things I've stood for and support. I'm happy to have been vulnerable and made some people question what they're doing and put that right and be more happy and make better choices and that's all I can do with the position I have and I feel like I've done that.

What are you going to miss? I'm going to certainly miss the family environment here because when I came into the squad I was very lost 19, 18, 19 year old and I'd just come from schooling, which I absolutely hated and had a horrific time, which, like, bullied me into a submission, to be honest, and came in as this introverted, really young in the mind, kind of girl who had no confidence, and then suddenly cricket,

it made me speak out, made me become extroverted, it made me face my fears, it made me vulnerable. I then became confident and well-rounded, and I had friends, who were real, the real kind that you don't really know exist and then we became family and I've had three different families over the generations I've played the cricket, you know, in the England team for and that's the bit I'll miss the most

is the friends and the friendships and the memories that you make when you're away. Tammy Beaumont joins us, former England teammate of Catherine's. Evening Tammy. Good evening. Do you know what? That last bit is such an emotional final answer on the power of the power of sport and how it can change anybody's life.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, Catherine Sima Bruntz got possibly one of the best stories for that. I think everyone can be a testament to exactly how she played on the pitch, but probably what people didn't see was, you know, what she offered off the pitch and how she truly means every single word of that, that, you know, this cricket has been her family. And she's obviously got a wife from cricket, but, you know, I live 10 minutes down the road from.

and we go dog walking all the time and I'm sure that it will continue for a very, very long time because of cricket has made such strong bonds with so many people she's played with throughout her career. Tammy, tough is here. Hi-ya.

How are you going to go? Yeah, good, thanks. Good, good. What I was just going to say there, which I didn't know, is that she said she sort of came into cricket as this introverted sort of young lady. She certainly didn't play cricket like that,

did she? she was a real force. Yeah, I think, you know, that was, she's slightly older than me, so I did miss that kind of side of her career, but certainly I have seen her develop as a person, as a human, off the field. And even in the early days, she was a little bit shy off the pitch, not talking a lot in team meetings,

not necessarily forthcoming with her opinions. But I think cricket on the pitch was her release in a way, somewhere she could really express herself running, and charging and bowl fast, particularly before her first of her three back operations. She was very quick for a woman's player and she wore a heart on her sleeve. All the emotion came out on the pitch and then you'd get back off the pitch and she'd be quiet as anything. Yeah, but she needed that, didn't she? I mean, I've seen various interviews with her today and in fact, when Ian Ward interviewed her on Sky,

he made a cry. But the, and she admitted in that interview that she actually needed that. that emotion out on the field? Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's probably, you know, the thing that she'll be remembered for the most is she absolutely wore her heart on the sleeve. You know, playing test matches with Catherine,

you think we're absolutely down and out. And she would drag us back from the depth of despair, finding some energy from somewhere to charge in and, you know, be aggressive, even if she had to say a couple of words to the batter to get them out of their box and fire us all up. and she was an absolute talisman and we followed in behind

and that was exactly why I loved playing with her and that's something I'm massively going to miss because if I was having a low day where maybe a bit low on energy or whatever in the nets it was me and her were having a battle and it had to be on and the standard had to be up or she was going to, she didn't care if it was in a net or not she was going to celebrate if she got me out.

Stephen, she's also said today, you know, she never set herself any targets really and yet the achievements the numbers are phenomenal 267 caps 335 wickets 3 Ashes wins 250 over World Cup wins

and a T20 title for someone who didn't set herself targets and then she said that you know she did she did when it came to being the number one bowler in the world yeah people use different things to motivate them don't they

and some people use accolades some people use feelings and some people use the team and I think the thing that stands out for Catherine as as Tammy said there was her ability to lead with her actions for the team and quite often when you have that mindset and when you manage to find that mindset as a sports person that's when you actually play your best stuff so I think it's testament to her and the length of her career that a lot of that time she's managed to find that mindset where she's not thinking about herself and her own accolades, but she's playing for a greater purpose, and I think that that on the whole got the best out of her. Henry, I'm not trying to point people in this

direction as far as management are concerned, but she'd be a great addition to the commentary box, wouldn't she? She already has been. Yeah, she was this summer and we had the bizarre experience of her having to watch her wife, Nat Siverbrun, batting in a very crucial moment. his match. And she could barely watch it, but it's extraordinary insight. And it was a real demonstration of how she absolutely lives and breathes every element of the game of cricket. And it

seems an odd parallel to make, but you hear people talk about Shane Warn as somebody that regardless of the match situation, always believed that absolutely he could win the game for them. And why was anyone worried about it? Because he had that sort of force of personality and force of nature. And

Catherine Siverbrun is exactly the same. The thought of not going out there and thinking you could win from any situation. Totally ludicrous. That was always her mentality. I'm going to go out here. I'm going to win the game. We may need 100 to win. We're nine down and I'm coming out to bat or we may be horribly behind with the ball. I'm still going to win this game. And that's a very rare commodity in an athlete. And the other side to the story that perhaps many people don't see is the work that she's done to develop the game and the women's game that we see before us with 12,000 here at the Oval tonight and records being broken seemingly every week.

has worked so hard behind the scenes to develop things. And there's talk of her going to the ECB with Excel spreadsheets and PowerPoint presentations years and years ago to say, look, this is why we think that we need this and this and this is going to help the game grow and help our team grow. And this is why we think that this needs to happen. And so the work that she has done, I think there's a reasonable case to say that what we see in front of us, a lot of it, you perhaps wouldn't see without her work both on the field and off it. She has been an absolute titan in the world of which, women's sport in this country, and she's going to be the most fun as a broadcaster as well. Football is so much more than what happens on the pitch.

That is absolutely sensational. That's right. The summer transfer window is wide open, and the rumour mill is well and truly working overtime. The Transfer Gossip Daily Podcast with Maisie Adam. Will Manchester City just look to consolidate their incredible squad? Can Nottingham Forest leave behind the drama of last season? And surely Chelsea and Everton will settle for some stability. What will happen next?

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It's the summer of retirement toughers, isn't it, really? Well, someone not too far away's retired this year. Which I'd just like to congratulate him on, actually. I did. I saw you the other day, didn't I, Steve? Where were we? Trent Bridge, we weren't. Trent Bridge, that's right.

And I said, oh, hello, Steve, what are you? up to and he said well actually phil i've retired and he went congratulations well absolutely and i said congratulations on a fantastic career and and we had a nice little chat about it steve we did and then i reached straight for the chocolates and a busy drink and yeah i've really been filling my boots

for the last 10 days it's been fantastic we always get told when you know you know is that right it's it's a funny one i think as a bowler especially a fast bowl it can be a frustrating experience because when your body starts giving up on you mentally you still want to be out there and mentally you feel motivated to get back out there but as Catherine Siverbrun actually alluded to in her interview that we listened to just now there comes a point where you just can't do what you used to and you can't compete like you used to and you feel like a bit of a liability

I had 12 months out with a pretty serious knee injury that required me on crutches, injecting myself in my stomach every day and all the way through that, I was really motivated to get back out there and play and that took 12 months to get over that injury. And then as I was coming back playing and training in about the six weeks or the two months

in the buildup to these 50 over games that are being played at the moment alongside the 100. and just things were hurting that hadn't hurt before my ankle was hurting my back was very stiff I got into my first proper game and I had a back spasm second ball and was just stood in the field and I couldn't move I was trying to move after balls and I couldn't move and I was stood there and I thought I think you're done here unfortunately so you walk off the pitch you're emotional and it's hard but yeah in that moment in time where you've worked so hard for 12 months to get back out there

playing and then to have further setbacks and not feel like yourself, then, yeah, certainly when you're there in that moment, you do know. Did you, go on, tough as, go on. Yeah, I think it must be slightly different for fast bowlers because you said also to me, Steve, that you sort of like you ran in and you, it just wasn't coming out right. You know what I mean? It was sort of like wobbling down there a little bit. I mean, us spinners, you know, we're like fine wine, you know, we get better with age.

but I think with something that's so physical, you know, as you said, the time just must come must seem and the body can't do it. Did you really start to feel a liability? Because that's a really strong word. Yeah, I mean, you feel like you're letting people down. I walked off the field after 24 overs because I couldn't bowl anymore. I wouldn't have been able to do myself justice with the ball.

And I couldn't have been hidden in the field for the next 26 overs. So you're sending a subfielder out there. You're leaving the team six overs short. from a bowling perspective and it didn't help that that game we went for 430 so you watch the boys

getting lashed all over the place out there on the pitch and you're just sat on the sideline not able to move with a hot water bottle on your back and with your legs up because you can't move

and yeah it's a really humbling experience actually but a liability is a pretty accurate way to the feeling that you feel inside yourself when you get that in that moment

do you feel Catherine Siverbrunt was quite emotional, wasn't she about, or it was a very emotional answer about what sport has given her from where she was when she first came into it. Do you feel quite, I don't know, touched or emotional about what the game has given you? Very, very. My life has centred around cricket since the day I was born.

My parents love it from a very normal background in Watford, but my mum was at the cricket club every one. weekend with my dad who was there playing and it's just something that you've dedicated your entire life to and it's very hard actually I sound very calm when I'm speaking about it now because I've done a lot of speaking to people about this over the last two weeks but those initial moments when you're deciding and you're actually giving up on something that you've dedicated your whole life to it feels like a massive massive loss and you do feel a bit lost when you those first few days where you don't have to watch what you eat.

You're not constantly thinking about, right, when am I training next? I need to get myself in this sort of condition to be able to train in a few days' time. You do feel lost, but on the flip side, you're incredibly grateful, and I'm certainly incredibly grateful for all the opportunities that I've been given because of cricket. I've experienced probably, quite sadly actually, at 34, I've probably experienced the biggest highs that I'll ever experience in my life. life out there on the pitch. And knowing that you'll never replicate that is very difficult, but I'm very thankful that I have done them. We're going to move on to talk about Ben Stoics

at just a moment, but just before we do, we have a voice note from someone you know rather well. Hi, Finney, As to Cook here. A huge congratulations on your fantastic career. Very sad news about your retirement, but I'm sure you'll take it in your stride onto your next stage of your career. That's a fantastic commentator. It's a pleasure to play with you. against you. I think you got me out twice in one day at Lords and to captain you. I know people will always remember you if you're bowling in 2015, 2010 or your Thunderbolts in that one-day series in New Zealand when we're outside the 30-yard circle at Slip. But I think I'll remember you most is for that, the Watford Wall, that 50 odd, not ours, as a night watchman against

New Zealand. There's 200-odd balls you faced. It was one of the great knots. The only problem was it made you think like you were a proper batsman and trying to tell the rest of us how to do it. Anyway, I hope retirement goes well and look forward to you seeing the TMS box soon. The Watford War. The Watford Wusher. The Watford Wusher by the end of my career, unfortunately. They were very brief stays at the crease towards the end. But yeah, it feels like you're at your own funeral at times, actually.

You sort of reading stuff and hearing people talk about you in that way. but I'm very humbled for someone like Sir Alastair Cook to say kind things like that, it does make you quite emotional. There's a theme to this programme because I'm moving on to talk someone who is coming out of retirement, which is obviously Ben Stokes,

part of England's World Cup squad. It was also announced last week that he'll play in the series against New Zealand. That begins next Wednesday. Before we talk about this decision, here's national selector Luke Wright. It actually wasn't really a case of changing his mind. I think he was always interested

in coming back. Obviously with the ashes being there, he's obviously had to make that priority, get through the ashes, have a break, give the body a rest as well. So the nice thing for us was it wasn't a case of needing to beg him or anything like that. He was always keen from our point of view. And I'm sure England fans and everyone connected to be absolutely delighted. We're going to pick him as a batter. Look, we're obviously always assessing that as it goes. But the one thing we won't be doing is pushing him to bowl unless he's absolutely fit and ready to go. So that was a big part of the decision for him but there's still going to be a period for him

to try and get this knee right but it's obviously not an easy one what do you make of the decision Phil well I think any side with Ben Stowe I mean he's some player you know let's get this right Penn Stoke is some player and I think any side with a Ben Stokes in it is going to be a better side

not only just for and if he can bowl we'll have to wait and see about his knee and this that and the other but just for his batting skills, but also just for his leadership qualities. You look round, and when you're playing in tight games and you sort of look around the dressing room

and there's a fellow like Ben Stokes there, it just puts you in a better frame of mind, do you know what I mean? And he's done, you know, he's a player for the big occasion. We've seen him do that time and time again, get important runs in World C-20s and things like this. And also he's,

leadership skills as well. I mean, I've been so impressed with his captaincy in the test matches as well. So I think it's going to be a huge help to Josh Butler, just to not only sort of like be a sergeant, if you know what I mean, and in the trenches with the guys just to keep them going, but also to help him out as well. I mean, it's difficult to captain in white ball cricket. Things happen so far. So if you've got another sort of captain up your sleeve, I think it's the right decision. And yeah, any side for me with Ben Stokes in it is a better side. Okay, but what's it due to the balance of the team, Stephen?

Well, yeah. Well, it means that Harry Brooke mishes out, which is a big talking point. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. There's been a lot of talk about that. And also, I think that may be subject to change. There's still some degree of flexibility with that 15, isn't there, until it's finally named. But I think what it does to the balance of the team, Ben Stokes plays as a top order,

probably a top five batter and an out and out batter. And not having his bowling there actually does mess up the balance of the team a little bit. But I think having Ben Stokes in your team, and yes, he will score runs. He'll score important runs. But it's when he scores those runs that is the most important thing. And you look back at the big moments in English cricket over the last five or six years the 2019 World Cup final he was the man the 2022 T20 World Cup final

he was the man headingly he was the man at Lords he nearly single-handedly dragged the team over the line in that second test match at Lords in the ashes so he's a man with the mentality that you want in big tournaments

and it's of no surprise whatsoever that the phone was picked up straight away and asked him if he'd reconsider his retirement but do you think do you think squads could be bigger for absolutely I mean 15 feels like a very small squad

in modern era sport Absolutely Why don't you just make it 16 Or however many 18 or something Yeah it does seem a little bit slim But I still I still can't get over

Harry Brooke not being in that side You know Especially after what he's been What's he done for the last couple of years It's just incredible he must be a little bit disappointed listen he won't miss out on too many squads in the years to come

and as Finney was saying I'm sure that they'll find a way to somehow get him in there it's not quite finalised but yeah incredible I think there's a few boys there who are a little bit lucky perhaps to be keeping him out how do they find a way if it's not finalised Stephen

how do they find a way to get him in well it's simple you just drop someone Well, yes, and yeah, yes, and therefore I was trying to, subtly without saying it as much as that. He may sneak him in a suitcase or something. I was wondering whether you were going to give me a name. That's what I was trying to do. There are two candidates who are vulnerable, aren't they? In that scenario.

And I think that Jason Roy and Darvin Malam will be the people that are being talked about missing out if Harry Brooke were to make his way in the 11th hour into that team. The one thing that I do think that Harry Brooke gives you, if he does make it into the squad, is flexibility to bat anywhere in that top six. I think he's got the technique to bat at the top of the order. He can play spin excellently and bat in the numbers three, four or five. And he can biff the ball out the park as well, which is important at six and seven. So I think that having a player with that flexibility in your team is important. But on the flip side of that, both Jason, Roy and David Milan, in the most.

recent ODIs in Bangladesh both scored very classy hundreds in conditions very similar to the ones that they're going to find in India. So technically they're the foreign players and it's very difficult to leave either of those two out based on that evidence. He's a very good player of spin. You're right, Ari Brook. You're right, Finney as well. So, you know, you've got to be slightly horses for courses, but yeah, I just, you know, crikey, he must be sitting there scratching his head. He must be sitting there. Well, crikey, Riley, what else have I got to do to get a game here? Somebody mentioned Livingston to me as well yesterday, but is Livingston less vulnerable because of his spin options?

I think because of his spin options and also the fact that you need guys at numbers 6, 7, 8, to be able to clear the ropes, especially in India, in the back end of 50 overs, the 50 overs of your batting. So he offers something very different to other guys, and he gives you the flexibility to be able to bowl off-spin,

leg-spin, he's a very good fielder, he's a very versatile cricketer and he's turned himself into that, to his credit, actually. He didn't bowl leg-spin before. He's just taught himself that in the last few years so that when it comes to decisions like this and when Luke Wright and all his selector friends

are sat there selecting these squads, they're going, what does this person give me and what specific skills do they give me? And if the list is four or five long, it means that your chances are getting selected, than that squad are far higher. Phil? No, absolutely.

Couldn't agree more. Liam Livingston is a real sort of like specific kind of player, as Steve was saying. He has the ability to absolutely clear the fence, as does the likes of Harry Brooke. But Harry is that kind of fellow who I think could build an inning

slightly more than Liam. Liam's a real impact kind of player with the bat. And just the perfect guy, as you say, coming in six or seven or wherever just to go in absolutely, with a license just to absolutely smash it

and the way this England it just goes to show the strength in depth there of this England whiteball side and like that Harry Brooke can't get in it but as you say yeah no

Liam's a slightly different kettle of fish to Harry but a great person who puts you as a bowling side when you're bowling at him and he comes to the pitch you know he can

win you the game in the last 10 or 15 overs he can just put you up to those scores of 300, 300, you know, and even knock on the door of 400. When you look at the pace bowling options, there are some opportunities for some newbies, aren't there? Stephen, you've got Gus Atkinson, Brydon Kass has come in for the injured John Turner. You've got Reese Topley back for another shot at World Cup glory, who's bowed beautifully in the 100 over the last few weeks.

Yeah, I feel really sorry for John Turner, actually. I think that I read that today. He's picked up a side strain, hasn't he, whilst playing in the 100. And he was someone actually that I was really looking forward to seeing in an international environment, because I like what I see with him. He's a very simple action. He keeps his mindset and his mentality simple as well as well, just bangs away at back of a length with the odd change of pace. So I'm disappointed for him. Gus Atkinson's also a very interesting one. I've watched him closely this year from afar thinking that this guy doesn't look far away from international quality. I watched him early season for Surrey against Middlesex whilst I was working on the game

and you thought, this guy's just got that something a little bit different to other people, the way that he's very front on and very whippy with his action. He can hit you harder than you think, and he's got the ball up to, I think, 94 or 95 miles an hour in the 100 this year so far. So he's another really exciting prospect. And actually, he's forced his way into that World Cup 15, hasn't he? as it stands now, which is a fantastic effort by him. Yeah, he's a real prospect.

Yeah, real prospect for me, Gus Atkinson. No, I saw Turner down at Cardiff, actually, and was very impressed with him, as I say, came absolutely steaming in. So, as you say, disappointing for him. But no, Gus Atkinson, a little bit, Steve, do you think, a little bit Joffera archery, that very sort of quick wrist? And he's one of those guys that, as a batter, I should imagine, you've always got, he can hit you on the head from nowhere.

You know, he's got that very sort of like high action and just easy, smooth pace. Does things with the ball as well, but has that ability just to, as you say, if you get a little bit cheeky with him and start playing him off the front foot, he can clonk you on the head, very easy. Yeah, and that's when you're playing in the subcontinent

and you're looking to break partnerships through the middle, if your spin bowlers aren't doing it for you, you need that express pace and you need to be able to keep people, people on your toes in order to then make the breakthrough. So I think that he's very much a horses for courses selection in terms of he's the best of the out and out pace bowlers that we have in the country. And the fact that he's not experienced, that doesn't matter at all.

There are two left arms in the team, aren't there, Willie and Topley. Sir Josh Butler really would want that left arm swing in the opening power plays. And they've picked two people to fulfill that role. So they're very specific about the way that they want to build this. team and I'm excited about Gus Acton's inclusion. This is the TMS podcast. Fantasy Premier League

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