Test Match Special - KP’s back, Jofra Archer and more Pakistan chaos

Episode Date: September 7, 2026

Mark Chapman is alongside England's all-time leading wicket taker Jimmy Anderson, former England captain Michael Vaughan and BBC cricket correspondent Stephan Shemilt to discuss Kevin Pietersen's return to the England fold as he joins the white-ball coaching team. Jofra Archer speaks about being a key part of England's bowling attack this summer after returning from a much-needed break from cricket. And a turbulent Test summer for Pakistan continues as an internal inquiry is launched into discipline and conduct during their current tour of England.

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And over the next hour of five live cricket, we'll talk Kevin Peterson's new role in England's coaching set up. We'll hear from England bowler, Joffra Archer, and we'll get the latest on what on earth is going on with Pakistan ahead of the third test at Edgebaston, which gets underway on Wednesday. Michael Vaughn and Jimmy Anderson are withers and Stefan Schemelt as well, the BBC's cricket correspondent.

I'm guessing if I've spoken to Jimmy about Burnley, Michael, you'd happily talk about Sheffield Wednesday, would you at the moment? We've made a good start, yeah, four out of five. I think we've been a bit fortunate, the winner way at Peterborough. We probably were a little bit scrappy, but you can't ask for a better start. We should have been in Bradford, actually. I mean, it should have been five out of five, but we'll take that. We've got Wigan on Saturday Shepherds.

So we're all looking rosy in Hillsborough. Yeah, and they've had a very difficult start of Wigan. Right, let's talk about the news today then with Jimmy and Michael of Kevin Peterson, coming into England's white ball coaching setup as a mentor. This is all part of building up to next year's 50 over World Cup. Do you want to take us through then, Stefan?

What has happened today and how out of the blue this was? Well, seen as you didn't ask me about Stokes' 4-0 win against Charlton at the weekend, I'll talk about Kevin Peterson instead. He tweeted this morning, Kevin Peterson, that he had some big breaking news

and I don't think anyone thought it was going to be this. And 12 years on, from when he was effectively sacked by England. He's back, you know, after all that animosity and acrimony that followed that exit, he's now back with three lions on his chest. And it's not unusual for England to appoint these consultants, particularly with the White Ball team.

They've had Andrew Flintoff, they've had Kearham Pollard in the recent past. England have got in with them up until the World Cup in South Africa at the end of the home summer next year, so sort of our autumn in 2027. And announcing the Peterson appointment, they explained that part of it is because of his expertise of playing in South Africa. Obviously, everyone knows what he knows about that country. And he basically announced himself as an international cricketer under your captaincy, wasn't it? Vorney in 2004 on that tour of South Africa.

So that's what they've brought him in for. And also, I suppose, the other bit of this will be there'll be a lot of players in that dressing room who will have grown up watching and idolizing Kevin Peterson. So I suspect, or you would hope, that there will be a lot of players in that. a queue of batters who want to work with him. When you say he's with them, given this title of specialist mentor, does that mean with them, wherever they go around the country or abroad or available to them if required? So we know he's going to be going on tour over the winter. He's not going to be in Pakistan.

That's England's first assignment of the winter. He's going to be joining up with them for the Sri Lanka series that starts next week. And then he's going to be in Australia and South Africa over the winter. then again in the home summer next year. I suppose this is also as well the first move in the, what's going to be the new backroom teams. We don't know how they're going to quite take shape yet because, as Jimmy said earlier on,

Stephen Fleming's coming in as the test head coach in December. There are already coaches that were working with Brendan McCullum across formats in the past. So Triscothic is there as the test head coach at the moment, but he's been an assistant coach across formats, as has Jitin Patel, Tim Salvey and Sarah Taylor of all. been around. We don't quite know how that new setup is going to shake down and what Stephen Fleming will want

and whether someone will be taken away from Brendan McCollum and put with the test team. But for now, Kevin Peterson's going in with that white ball team. You would think mainly as a batting specialist and he's there to add expertise and experience to all these young

players. And I guess someone I'm really looking forward to seeing is what influence might have on someone like Harry Brooke. Okay. What was your having to come on to individual players in a moment, I suppose, and there's a lot to unpick. What were your initial thoughts when you heard the news? Both of you, Michael, go first. Yeah, shock's exactly the same as Stefan.

I was out and about, and suddenly the news popped up that Keb was coming back into English cricket. I'll be honest, I wasn't too sure what to make of it at the start. I've had a few hours to kind of consider my thoughts. The one thing I know from Kevin Peterson, and again, my time playing and captain him, he was an ultra-professional, brilliant player, world-class. He's done a bit of mentoring with Delhi and the IPL. He's passionate about the game.

You rightly say, Steph, about these players would have watched Kevin and obviously idolized the way that he played, the switches and all the modern kind of way of playing. He certainly was that player before his time. So in that regard, I think he'll be absolutely fine for the team. The only issue I have is that there's some, quite powerful big egos within that coaching setup. You know, I don't see any other team in the world that has such a famous,

if you like, but coaching set up as Baz McCullum, Kevin Peters. We've got Stephen Fleming in the test team. You're adding to that, Marcus Tris Goss. There's some really kind of big names. And I'm not saying that that's a bad thing. I'm just interested to know the dynamic going down the line. And for the start, I mean, I guess Kevin's big problem in his time within the game

has been. He's always started fine and then things have gone a little bit wayward whether it was at not, whether it was England. And I guess he's a different person now and probably a lot wiser in terms of the way that he acts around every situation. So in terms of

cricket and knowledge and what he can pass on to the players, I have absolutely no doubt that he'll do a really good job. It's just the dynamic of all these kind of egos within the management group. I'm intrigued to know how that's going to end up. Come on to that as well.

moment, what were your initial thoughts? Yeah, a bit of surprise, I think, at first. Why? I don't know. I just, I didn't think that he was, you know, you see him do his, he's done a bit of media. He's done, he's got a YouTube channel. I didn't know coaching or mentoring was something that obviously done a little bit in the IPL. But, yeah, I think just from that point of view, I was a bit surprised.

But actually, when you think about it, when the KP that I played with, he was an innovator. He was fearless. He was a winner. He knew how to win big games. You know, he won a World Cup. And I think that sort of character will be, will just rub off on people. You know, he'll,

it'll be a great help. I think he'll encourage people to think outside the box with the batting. He also, as Michael said there, he works hard. Yeah. And he is, he is, he is, I mean, people will have their opinion,

flamboyant and this and the hair at one point and this and the other, we've all been there. But I mean, and all of that, but he really cares about his craft, doesn't he? Yeah, definitely. Well, when he, as a player, he trained as hard as anyone, both fitness-wise and skills-wise. But he just, he had that ability to go on the field

and have that flair and innovation and stuff. And as I said, he was a winner. He just wanted to win. He wanted to score big runs in big games. He loved the big occasion. And hopefully that sort of thing can sort of rub off on the guys who might not have experienced the World Cup before. On the ego's point that Michael made,

whose appointment is this? That's a really good question. Because we don't know that at the moment. And you expect that it'd have to be... Not the cricket regulator, is it? It would normally have a discussion about them at some point. You would expect that it's had to be a collaborative approach, Brendan McCullum was talking to Michael earlier on today

and he mentioned that he'd met Kevin Peterson earlier on in the summer, but you can't, as a management group, just bringing someone like Kevin Peterson without everyone agreeing and being on the same page. I think what it's interesting, I was just thinking about it when Jimmy was talking about it, is when England have split the coaching setups in the past,

we've often spoken about one format, maybe not getting priority, if you will, that one's been sort of sidelined. And I guess it's really interesting then from that point of view that when you think that the problem has been with the test team and actually under Brendan McCullum, the White Bull results have improved, the T20 side have been ranked number one in the world

and the one-day side seemed to slowly be getting things back on track, that maybe we're thinking, well, actually, is there going to be more focus on the test team in the next little while? But the first big appointment has come in the Whiteball team, So I think that's an interesting dynamic going forward because I guess when you're thinking about how England going to balance these things, well not for one second,

is Brendan McCullum going to want to think that he's getting the raw end of the deal? So in the first appointment that's come, it's a big name that's going into the white ball setup. I mean, the dynamic that you talks about, McCullum and Peterson then, and you threw other names in there, I suppose, Michael, with, you know, egos within the coaching setup.

would you want roles to be clearly defined? I think it's very hard to define roles straight away. I think they'll have to find a way of Kevin operating. Again, I've not seen him coach. I've not seen him in a dress room since he's been a player, so I'm not too sure the star that he brings in that regard. But it's so important that you remember it's about the players. You know, it's about the 11 that go on the field.

It's about the 15 that's in the squad. It's about making sure that the focus is on the players. And, you know, with such a powerful, famous coaching setup, the one thing I've looked at the whiteboard team in recent times, I've never felt that they were lacking the coaching. You know, I think the test team, in terms of some of the batting, you could argue that they need a little bit more coach. And maybe Kevin would have been better off in the test environment.

Stefan has just mentioned about, you know, number one in the world in T20 cricket, the 50-over team. The Champions Trophy was in the subcontinent, the World Cup defense was in India. Two places that are very difficult to perform, or historically it's been a hard place for England to go and perform. But the next World Cup's in South Africa, I'm guessing that's probably one of the main reasons why he's come in.

It was a part of the last World Cup, the defense in Mumbai. Stefan mentioned it on the phone some of this afternoon regarding that toss decision in Mumbai in a million-degree heat and England decided to bowl. And after that, again, they thought they could have done with some local knowledge. I don't think you need local knowledge to make that decision on that given day. But I think Kevin will bring a bit of local knowledge, obviously, from South Africa. He's obviously from there.

He's been working there in the T20 tournament there, and he has a house there. So I would think he's going to bring a lot in terms of the South African conditions. I'm just intrigued about the dynamic. You know, the dynamic of the coaches who are going to get so much attention. And when you have that, you've got to be very, very careful and understand that it's about the players. It's about getting those 11 players going out onto the field and playing the right style of cricket. Again, you know, Harry Brook will be a flamboyant leader.

He's done really well in whiteboard cricket as a captain. But the one thing I don't think the white ball team need any more is revving up. I don't think they need revving up with the batting hand. They're absolutely fine with the way that they play. It's just a little bit of smartness. I think what people forget with Kevin Peterson is he was flamboying. He did play aggressively, but he did play smart at the right times. And that's what I hope I'll bring to the England whiteboard thing.

I mean, he said earlier this year, tactically, you have to understand the situation. I know I've got all the credentials. I know I do. I've won every single T-shirt. I've failed. I've won. I've done everything in the game.

And I would never, ever, not looking at helping England out. There was a clue there, wasn't it? But then he goes on saying, the shortest form of the game, sure, play without fear, go out there, be brave, be reckless, be careless, be whatever you want. In test match cricket, you cannot do that. I know we're specifically defining the role here, you know, white ball mentor specialist,

but you'd be daft if you were Jacob Bethel, for argument's sake, not to pick Kevin Peterson's brains about batting the test match cricket as well, wouldn't you? Yes, absolutely. So the label is just a label? Yeah, I think getting him, you know, he's, I think they'd call him a mentor because he's not done his, coaching badges and contractually you can't call him a coach. I think that's

how they get around it. So the mentor thing, whether you call him a coach or a mentor, whatever, he'll be doing a bit of everything. He'll be trying to pass on knowledge that he's learned from his years and years of playing T20 cricket, international cricket, test cricket. He will be passing that on.

I think the difficulty is picking the right time to do it because if you're just coming in for big series and you don't want to just pile information on people for it's got to be drip fed in and I think him being around for a long period of time will help that, get to know a few of the guys, build a relationship and then start drip feeding information in. You'll get a feel for who wants to take it on board and who doesn't.

I think when the news broke earlier on today, and a lot of people like, wow, that's Kevin Peterson. And you think that because of the name of who it is. But actually, if you look at the way that England have operated over the past couple of years, they've had lots of people in and around either the senior team or the Lions. So I mentioned Flintoff and Kieran Pollard, Dynash Kartik's worked with them, Kumar Sangha Karah. I think Dale Stain as well.

Jimmy Anderson has been England's bowling consult. So I don't know, how do players react to you, Jimmy, as well, especially when they know you and they've seen what you can do? Do they want to come up to you and ask for advice, or are they a bit standoffish to begin with? Well, I probably didn't go in at the right time because I went straight from playing into that role. And I had a good relationship with most of the guys.

I've played with most of them so Mark Wood for example Gus Atkinson Jopra I played with all these guys so it was kind of like easy I was just basically doing what I've been doing as a bowler

for that period of time but then obviously towards the back end of it I realised I wanted to keep playing so I racked it off but it's difficult because also there's so much cricket that these guys play. You've got to be careful not to just be constantly

on them. They've got to give them the space. You've got to let them figure things out themselves as well. And if they want to talk to you, you've got to be open and there for them, I guess. And that's not just being a coach or a mentor. That's being a teammate and a squad player. Do you think, I know you talk

about the dynamics, but if you now have Peterson, McCollum, Fleming, Root, Brooke as the white ball captain Marcus Stratholic around as well If you are

I'm not going to use Bethel as an example again I'll do if you're Jordan Cox here You can have too many voices can you Yeah I guess so The skill of the player is understanding which voices You're going to listen to the most You know I've said for a few years That you know if I was a player in this era

I'd want to choose my own coach You know and have my own set of eyes and ears. And that might not necessarily be the names that you've mentioned. That'll be outside the England ball. I think it's so important as a player that you understand your game. And it might be that you've had a coach since the age of 10 that knows you more than anybody.

Did you? Did you? Yeah, I did have a couple of coaches, yeah. I called Jack Bethel. That was my coach from the age of 10. Then Doug Padgett at Yorkshire, who was my coach from the age of about 16, 17. And I'd always check him with Duncan Fletcher when everything was with the England side.

So I think it's important that you have these kind of go-to people away from the England bubble. But from what I look from, particularly Rob Kearney's appointments over the last few years, he likes this style of appointment. You know, he likes the big personalities, the vibe coaches. That's what I describe, the mentors that can create a dressing room vibe with the presence that they bring. As soon as they walk through the doors,

the likes of Stephen Fleming, Kevin Peterson, Freddie Flint. They've got huge presence, and maybe that's the style of character that the England players like and need. But away from that, you know, you do need good technical coaching. I'm not saying Kevin Peterson won't be technical, because I've never seen him coached. But cricket is still a very technical game that you need to make sure that you have coaches that you're working with can get to your logbook and make sure that you're checking in with all your technical side. And then the vibe, the mentality, the confident that comes from those that are around you on, regular basis

and the way that they torture you, you can go out onto the field and produce your magic. But, you know, I still hope that there's a room for a bit of technique because I think from what I see and what I hear, there's still a lot

of vibe coaching going on within the England set of. In the answer that you gave there, it would suggest that you think it's a Rob Key appointment? Well, he's the Czech signer. You know, he's in charge of English cricket. He's the managing director of the England cricket team.

So whether he came up with the idea, maybe it was an idea from Baz McCullum, I have no idea, but Rob Key's the boss, so I guess he's the one that's made the final call in terms of the number. You have to sign a contract with Kevin, and Rob Key would have to take that to the board to get it signed off,

so I'd say that Rob Key certainly would play a big part in this signing, yeah. Did you have an individual coach that you would turn to away from whatever the coaching set up was at either Langshire or England? Not especially. I think you obviously you're going to work with a decent amount of coaches throughout your career if you have a successful career. And I think you do come back to coaches and you might give them a ring or come back to what they taught you or what the advice that they gave you. But for me it was all, like I tried to do a lot of it myself. So I'll take bits of information from different coaches and then try and figure out what is the best for me.

So Mike Watkinson was my first one at Lancashire. then Peter Moore's had a huge influence on me with England, Otis Gibson, David Saker, they all sort of had little bits of input. And I feel like I just sort of mentally go back to when they were coaches and what they taught me. And all very different. Because everyone's different.

Every player's different. You've got to figure things out yourself as a player and know, like you will connect with a coach, with certain coaches better than other people connect with them. But it's about just figuring out what's best for you. As we've all said, you know, for some of these younger players, they will have grown up watching Peterson. He will be a hero to some of these.

Is there somebody, for both of you, actually, and Stefan can answer it as well if it was. Is there somebody that you could equate that with when you were a kid watching who, if had then come into a set-up to coach, you'd have gone, wow. Vorni? Harold Blarwood. steady on, Chalmers.

Alan Lamb. Yeah. And Robin Smith. Yeah. I was fortunate in the kind of mid-90s to be called into the England team. It's just a young 12th man, you know, just to go and carry the drinks. Make sure that Jack Russell's Wheatibix was right at lunch. And I was around Robin Smith and watched him, prepare, watching play.

And I loved to play with Robin Smith. But Alan Lamb, absolutely. Absolutely. I played against him at North Hans. adored him, still doing. And actually, you know, a much miss,

Robin Smith, when we interviewed him, what, three years ago, four years ago, when he came in and he just had, we were both like,

oh my goodness, Robin, he had an aura, didn't he? Yeah, yeah, that's what these kind of, and that's what Kevin

will bring, he'll bring an aura. You know, he really will, he'll bring a swagger. He's also very good at golf, which is important. And if they're in style,

Africa and Australia. He's got great contact, so we'll get on the great golf courses. So maybe he's been brought in as a golf secretary. Have you thought of someone? No. No. I thought Darren Goff was the one that sprung to mind. Someone I grew up watching all the time, but I ended up playing with him at the start of my career,

so which was just incredible. I'd be somebody. I'd be bully Austin, Jimmy, on it? Ian Austin. Again, I played with him. Pully, bully. Played with Peter Martin, Dan Chappellipal. All of them, like, yeah. Given the, just a couple more on this,

and then we'll hear from Geoff Rarch in a moment. Is there, because of all the different appointments that you've mentioned over the last couple of years, does that remove any suspicion of him being a coach in waiting for when there's a stumble? Well, it's interesting, isn't it? Because that's the thing that we were talking about Andrew Flintoff, quite a lot, that he first came in as a mentor,

and he was sort of doing an ad hoc role and then he became the England Lions coach and then there was lots of chat about him potentially being the next England head coach and he distanced himself from that and then he was never in the running for the test job when Brendan McCollum was sacked I don't know if Kevin Peterson

well we don't know we'll ask him and I tell you what I'd love to be in his first press conference as well because I think that could be box office the other thing I was just thinking about when you're talking about and I've said it that there'll be a lot of players in that team that remember Kevin Peterson as an England player. I don't know, though, are we, to make us all feel old, he last played for England 12 years again.

I think Jordan Cox is about 23. He's certainly no older than 25. Jacob Beth, there's only 21. There'll be some players who might actually not remember a great deal about Kevin Peterson, so sorry if I'm just taking that down. Well, that has a little bit. Can I just bring something to your attention, Stefan?

Generally, the assistant coach is on and get wheeled out on a bad news day. Yes. Yeah. You don't wheel out the bancoast when the two has scored 450. You wheel them out when they've been bowled out for 50. They'll be even more punchy then, won't it, if KP's rolled out on a bad day. Just the final one then.

Do you think Harry Brooke could be a big beneficiary of this then, Michael? Well, I think Harry Brooks doing fine already. I mean, his captains has been really good. His relationship with, obviously, Baz McMillam is a strong one. as Steph mentioned he's got his team to number one in the T-20s his 50 over team

looked like they're back on track the playing in conditions that should suit England in the World Cup in a year's time in South Africa it can't hinder Harry by having someone like Kevin Peterson around

and I said a few years ago Harry's the only player since Kevin that I've seen someone back like Keff you know Kevin was a genius when he got it right some of the innings that he played were

right up there with the best of things that an England player has ever played and I think Harry's matched him on a few occasions already in his short career. So having him next to him, again, I don't know how much they know each other. It's just personalities and making sure

that you understand each other and when you know when to talk, when not to talk. And I think that's the real skill of coaching is knowing when to open your mouth. More often than not, it's knowing when to say nothing and that's going to be the real skill for Kev, I think.

Michael Vaughn, Jimmy Anderson, Stefan Shemot with us on 5. Live cricket. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. So much sport today for all the goals as they go in. This is Five Live Sports. It's all right to the lights and fit to the floor. Goals to folks.

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Let's turn our attention from Kevin Peterson and the batting side of things to the bowling side of things. A lot of praise being given to the bowling attack during this series against Pakistan and we can hear from one of them now. Joffra Archer, in line to play his fifth test in a row. And that would be the most he's ever played in a home test summer. When you're up and you're going, I'd say it's a bit easier to just keep bowling. You know, it's difficult when you need to take a break and then you want to come back.

So if I do have the opportunity to keep going the whole year around, I'll try my best to do that. Is that how you find it? Because some bowlers say the best way to stay fit for bowling is to keep bowling. Is that how it's worked for you? Yeah, but obviously not doing too much. You have your two, three days and then you just keep going late. If you bowl once a week, I reckon bowling once a week for the rest of your life, well, your career is probably the way.

How have you found it over the course of this series with this new four-man attack coming together and having so much success? Well, it's still early days, but we've been going all right so far. This wicket usually goes five days, so we'll see how we go if we have the opportunity to be out there a bit longer

than the last two games. But regardless, everyone's very relentless and, you know, Gus and Tongia are due for another big haul. so hopefully we can come this game. One of the things that I think everyone's noticed about the four of you as an attack is you've got different skills that complement each other. What do you see as your role in that attack?

Same as everyone's role, you know, you come in and you try to make an impact. You know, if the guy at the other end is going well, you compliment him and if he's not, then you try to take a put and try to be the aggressor. That's everyone just pushing post. Is there a leader of the attack? I don't know. I don't know right now anyway. It seems to be Ollie. He's getting all the poor, so definitely we'll definitely support him. Do you feel that looking back to when you came into the England team, there was more experienced cricketers around Jimmy Anderson, Stuart Broad, Chris Wokes, you were the younger, more inexperienced. Now do you look around the dressing room and think, wow, I'm one of the older guys now?

Yeah, but still probably feel less test than all of them, to be honest. So you say that, but also if they play more games, they mean more time, more game time means more experience. But, you know, I think the group, everyone is, everyone's around the similar age. Everyone's in a good space as well. You know, everyone you look around, everyone's smiling. So, you know, it's a good time, good time to be around. You said you think Ollie's leading because he's the one taking the wickets. Who gets choice of ends?

That all depends on the day as well, to be honest, because I think he got, that he got choice at Leeds. So, you know, same routine, just whatever it's best for the scot. Whatever it's best for that person at that ground, then it would be the better way to go. What about choosing the ball? I let him do it. I don't really believe in, I don't think there's a huge science.

Even in white ball cricket, you know, just pick a ball and go, to be honest. How have you found playing under Joe Roots again? Because one of the things that he talked about when he became captain for the second time was that maybe in his first time as captain, he didn't always know how to get the best out of you. He didn't know how to use you in his opinion. What do you think about that? So long ago, to be honest,

when the time when it was injured, I didn't really, I really got away. To be honest, it's been all been a blur. To be honest, I didn't realize how long the time of it was either. But, you know, since we've been back, you know, everything's been amazing, you know. The Lazier been doing well.

I love, like, this is my first test series, victory since probably South Africa, 2020, I think, or something like that. It was probably the Yash's, but we retained it. Then we didn't win in December. India, we drew again. So like, we drew a lot, but this is actually really good to win the test series and, you know,

hopefully it continues for a long time. When you say it was a blur, do you mean your time when you were away from Test cricket? Yeah, because I did take a step away from cricket, you know. I think with my rehab and being away, being back in Barbados and stuff. So, you know, like, I'd be lying if I didn't say I had a good time, like, away from everything. But, you know, now, the present and everything's really, really nice. And, you know, my body's in a good place, teams in a good place, everyone's in a good place.

And I just want to play cricket. Did you feel like you needed to take that step away when you were injured because I don't know it was frustrating not being part of this setup that you'd had setbacks Was that something that you needed to do to put some distance between yourself? Well nobody likes missing cricket and I think that was just the most special impact for me that was it But they got to spend some time at home Like just moving over and you never really get more than a couple of weeks so actually to spend like a month here and there. It was really nice.

You get to catch up with your friends and family that you would have grown apart from because I came over and it was like 19-20. So like for four years, it was just all about cricket. So to actually get a few months back, it made you feel really nice, really grounded because then at the end of the day, at some point, cricket's gonna end

and then what are you gonna do after? So, you know, it was really nice to see your family, see your friends, see people that you don't really get to see. Again, you don't really get to see much birthdays. Like, her mom's birthdays and my... Actually, you know what? I don't think I've been home for a single family birthday because you usually go like October, November.

So, yeah, like, it's just simple things like that. I don't get to see Mom on Mother's Day. Like, there's so much that you miss out on when you're playing that you don't really realize until you actually get to do it. Steph talking to Joffra Archer on building site? Am I being told off here? No, not at all. No, it just abuses me that the interview was put up

and they just kept building the stand. Well, they are building the stand. They're not just going to stop for me to talk to Joffar Archer. I think you've got that power now, to be honest with you. His mindset around the injury is very interesting there and actually trying to turn it into a positive. Yeah, well, I think the, I mean, always difficult when you go through a period of being injured.

But hearing him now saying he just wants to play cricket, he's got to that point where he's just itching to play. And seeing him, you know, I think he's been managed well in these test matches this summer so far. To be fair, he's not had, you know, he's not gone to day four or day five where he's been asked to bowl a tough spell when it's flat and they need a wicket. But, but a joke and aside, is that probably something, that they are going to have to consider, because we talk about how well the bowling attack has done

and how balanced they are, but physically they haven't necessarily been pushed to their limits. Yeah, definitely. I mean, it's all been very positive, I agree. We've seen some great performances, but the wickets they've played on have just not challenged them enough and the opposition that they've played against have not challenged them enough.

So there will be bigger challenges for the bowling group down the line. And I think that is something they've got to be wary of because they will become against better opposition on flatter wickets and there'll be times when it's really tough and they've bowed 25 oversim a day and the captain's asking them to come back and bowl another three overspell at the end of the day to get a wicket and it's going to be more difficult. So I think, yes, be positive at the moment.

They're definitely building something which you can see from the outside but I think that there will be stern a test in the future. because the feeling that if that is required, the worry will be whether Joffra could put his body through that, Michael. Yeah, I guess so. I mean, when you've had injuries, it's always a concern that those injuries may return. But so far what I've seen is summer England are managing nicely.

The challenges will come in South Africa. They'll come in the winter. They'll come next summer. But it's just nice to see the England attack. they're bowling with nice variations which are natural variations so Joffra is setting the tone and we're all looking at Joffra

when you see him bowl 90 odd miles and arrow in his first few overs of a test match you go on that that's what exactly you want to see but you want to see that in South Africa for three consecutive test matches you want to see them producing those spells at the start of the ashes next year at Trent Bridge

I'll be brutally honest in a few months of time probably next week actually we'll have forgotten this Pakistan series it's been a series where Pakistan have upstaged their chaos of the past. It's been remarkable, really. So let's not really look at this series. He can have got back on track with a few wins.

The bowling attackers look great because the opposition have been so poor. As Jimmy says, the challenges comes when the opposition are a bit stronger, the pitchers are a little bit flatter, the conditions are a bit hotter. But so far, particularly Joffa, when I've seen bowl 90-old miles now with those first three or four overs setting the tone, you know he can do it. and you know he's got the ability to crack open a game right at the start. Don't let the game get set, crack it open right at the start. And that's, I guess, what we would want to see from Joff in South Africa

and absolutely next summer against the Ausses. The thing with the attack that's come together now as a bit of an accident, not just because that Ben Stokes has retired, but also at the start of this series, Marcus North, the selector said, well, if Sam Curen had been fit, he might well have been in as the all-rounder, then it would have been three specialist seamers and maybe a spinner. Obviously, depending on the conditions,

we've seen the pictures that maybe that wouldn't have been the way that England go. But there's the sort of two problems I can see going forward with this attack for as exciting as it's looked in the past few matches, in that what Jimmy and Michael are saying is, you know, when it is hot and it is flat, is there going to be a spinner who can hold up an end for a long period of time to make sure that the fast bowlers don't just have to keep going, spell after spell, session after session.

but also what is behind these four bowlers at the moment because we don't know how long Bride and Kars is going to be out of the picture for even though England last week did say that he is available for selection because the other bowlers in the squad this week are Sam Cook and Sonny Baker, one cap apiece. Matthew Fisher has been around this summer, he's only got two caps.

So if England remain unchanged this week, which we think they may well do, that would be potentially an opportunity that goes by without giving someone else more experience. And if you look at the test matches in South Africa over the winter, which are back to back to back, are these four bowlers going to get through all three of those test matches? And then when they don't or when England have to rotate,

they're then going to be looking at someone that they're not 100% sure about. What would you do this test match, then? With the attack? Would you keep it unchanged? Would you like to have a look at someone else? Equally, is it irrelevant because of everything you said in the previous answer? I think it's irrelevant. Yeah.

I pick the same team. I mean, they've not been overworked. I don't think playing at Edgebaston against this Pakistan team will give the coaches or selectors any sort of knowledge about another player coming in. I don't think they'll get a fair sort of, you know, what's the word? They wouldn't see a fair reflection of what they can do

because I think this Pakistan team's so weak. So I just play the same team, try and get this series over and done with and then move on to bigger challenges and they will be, I think, I don't mind going for the natural changes. So when someone gets injured or when someone's sore, then you bring someone else in.

And whether they've played one test or 10 tests, you know, they've been around the group for long enough. If they're good enough, then they'll do a good job. And hopefully you've got another three or four bowlers around them that will protect them and allow them to come into the team and do the job that they're good at. Would you want to have a look at anybody else? or like Jimmy, would you think, given the context, it's irrelevant?

Yeah, I mean, if I was in the England management, I mean, I'll give you two answers, actually. If I was in the England management, I'd go same again. But then I'd think from my side of the fence going, but I wouldn't mind looking at Sam Cook because he's played one test against Zimbabwe. Olly Robinson, to me, looks like he's the pivotal kind of tone-setter. And if only went down,

I'd want a similar style of bowler to replace Olly Robinson. So that would be the only way I'd look at and it'd be for Joffre Archer because he's obviously someone that you need to wrap in a bit of cotton wool to make sure that he's fit and firing this test match as I said we won't be speaking about it probably on Saturday afternoon because we'll all be quite happy that this series is done

and kind of gone away but that's the only say if I'm in the management of slates I'm going to same again just winning another game of cricket but in the back of my mind I'd be thinking I wouldn't mind having a look at Sam Cuck The pace bowling's actually changed quite a lot. If you think of the Seamus that went to Australia

and how excited England were about the pace attack that went there and how long they'd taken them to put that together, at the moment there's no Mark Wood, Ben Stokes has gone, Braden Carson isn't in the picture, Matthew Potts has been left out. So that's changed quite a lot in a very short space of time. Not running at Durham. Yeah, and it's done well for Durham as well. They're on the way up.

But at the moment, I know that the England management, they're really excited about what they've put together. They think that this is something that they've been working on for a long period of time and even getting Joffa Archer back to the fitness and the work they've put in for him and the loyalty and the faith and all those central contracts and all those sorts of things. So they think that this attack can do something special. But the question is just that depth, isn't it?

Because fast bowling injuries can hit at any point, and it would only take one or two. and then we'd have to find out about other bowlers. I also don't know what the sort of schedule looks like, but with two coaches now, is there going to be a point where there's going to be a white ball series and a test match series? I want Joffa, no, I want Joffa.

Well, if this test match goes five days, England are playing a T20 two days later, the first T20 against Sri Lanka in Southampton. I mean, it's a big if. It is a big if, I'll give you that. But we had this situation earlier on, in the summer and Joffre Archer and Josh Tong both missed the first T20 against India.

They were arrested. Stephanie, if we're still there on the fifth day, I will buy you a lovely dinner on the fourth night. Deal, absolutely. Deal. Does the player have to have a say in that? I don't think so. I think you can...

It's hard for you to say, I want to play... As a player, you'd say I want to play everything. I want to play as many games as I possibly can. But then you've got to tell you. take on the information from the medical team. You know, you've got to listen to your body as well because I know they've not, in this test series, they've not bowled a huge amount,

but they're still bold enough. And it does take its toll at some point. So you've got to just try and be sensible with it as a player. How did you find it when you played under split coaches? Well, I generally got left out of Whiteball series, series rested, should we say, until to the point where I got dropped in the end completely after the 2015 World Cup.

But then that prolonged my test career as well. So I hated it at the time because I wanted to play everything. But actually, as I got older, I actually could understand it because my test career benefited from it. I just ask you one on Ollie Robinson before we move on to talking about Pakistan, which is an amazing record at home, less away. is there anything

is it a simple saying is there anything that he can do to change his away record compared to his home record? I think I mean I've seen him bowl well away he bowed well in Pakistan in one test

but his fitness record is the one thing that needs to get better I think if he's going to have a long England career which he can because he's that good he just needs to make sure he's fit enough to stay on the field.

He needs to make sure he's fit enough to be on the field when the captain needs you when it's hard. It's fine bowling at Lords when it's going all over the place. It's fine bowling at the Oval when it's gone all over the place.

But can you do it in India, Pakistan, South Africa, with a Cuckabre ball, when it's not going around corners, when the captain needs you to have some control. And that's when it's difficult and when he'll be tested, I think.

Jimmy Anderson, Mark of all, Stefan Schemort, with us, Stefan, thank you very much. Let's move on to talking about Pakistan. Last week, it was announced they dropped and sent home seven players ahead of the third test. They also released head coach, Safras Ahmed, and his assistant, Imar Gul. Today, the Pakistan cricket board released a statement saying they've initiated an internal disciplinary inquiry following media reports concerning discipline and conduct, which are currently being reviewed internally.

this afternoon their new bowling coach Ashley Knopfka was put up to talk about the situation Yeah it's unusual isn't it It doesn't happen very often And I guess from Mike and my perspective Is all we can do is come in and add positivity You know we want to listen to the players As much as we can

So there's obviously a feeling of uncertainty But also they've just got back on the job I've been really impressed with The level of calmness That they've taken over the last couple of days once we've given them time to talk and we've done that in one-on-one scenarios where they can talk to the head coach,

the bowlers can talk to me, and they can get things off their chest and then move forward. So it's about us getting in the present now. And like anything, the uncertainty can make you feel, you know, you take a step back and you're not sure. We've really been encouraging these guys to show their skills, whatever that may be, if it's a bus that can nibble it on a spot

or if the spinner plays, you know, the revs that he shows and the skills that he shows Arafat on the inside, I think that's what we want them to do. So it's like any good sport, you know, you need to encourage them to go to their strengths and back themselves over a long period of time. The PCB have said this morning there's an investigation into the conduct of some of the players. What do you know about that? As much as you do. And I can be really honest in that. I don't know too much. I sit outside of that decision-making model above us as coached.

which is we try and keep the players focused on what they need to worry about. And there's always, I guess that's one thing that I've learned about being in Pakistan and coaching for a period of time, nearly 15 months now with the white ball team, is there's always something going on in the background. And whether or not it's in or out of our control, and I think most of the time it's out of the players' control, they need to focus on the cricket that they have in front of them and the opportunity they have in front of them,

because there's some really great opportunities here for young cricketers that have are highly skilled. So, you know, we're not really in the position to even know the outer workings of what's happening at PCB in that context. I appreciate you. You don't know a great deal and you can't say a great deal, but is it concerning or unsettling that that is going on in the background while you're just trying to prepare for a test match? I guess it's how much you let it be concerning. I think the players don't get too involved in it. I think that's the best part. and as a coach, you know, we're busy enough as it is. You know, we're around. There's a few guys here that I've worked with on the edges but not have really close contact,

but there's guys here that I've had lots of contact with. So, you know, I'm busy just understanding them, getting to know what they do and how they go about things and how they prepare for a test match, helping them sort of get what they need. What were you saying earlier, Michael, about the assistant coach being sent out with him? But he thought when he got asked it,

oh, great, thanks very much for that. Goodness, me. Yeah, it's been a pretty good day for Pakistan, though, because no one's been sent home. It's not the worst day it could have been sent out there. Let's talk to cricket journalist Saj Sadiq on 5 Live Cricket. Evening, Sajdh, what a mess. It certainly is chaplers,

and I think it's standard for England tours from Pakistan or by Pakistan, that there is a certain level of chaos. But as Michael was saying, I think they've gone probably a few levels above previous chaotic tours. I mean, it's an example of that is the release from the media director from the PCB today. I don't know why I didn't come from the Pakistan Cricket Board, but he's used the term internally twice, and yet they put it out on social media. So it's an internal investigation that's being declared on social media.

And as I say, I have no idea why I didn't come from the Pakistan Cricket Board. I've read that media release about 27 times and I still can't understand it. I think what they're trying to say is that a couple of players misbehaved, or that's what the allegations are, and I'm led to believe that a couple of the players who were sent back out of the seven, their phones were checked, downloaded before they went back to Pakistan. I mean, there's an awful level. lot of finger pointing, rumour, counter-rumour.

I mean, Azar Ali has written in The Guardian today, cricket in Pakistan needs proper care and a vision that gives hope to a nation on the brink of losing their appetite. If we don't pull our socks up, we won't be able to bring people back. And that probably is the general feeling, isn't it? In amongst all of these recriminations and he said, he said, this, that and the other, that's the crux of it, that phrase, proper care and vision. I think there is no vision, there is no hope. If you ask the fans now in Pakistan, I mean, you know,

the world is laughing at Pakistan cricket. There's no doubt about that. But Pakistan cricket fans themselves are laughing at the Pakistan cricket team, which I think in the past, the Pakistan fans have tried to back the team. You know, they've always been behind them, especially in England. I mean, we've seen it, Headingley, and at Lords, hardly any Pakistan fans. So they're voting with their feet as well. And I think it's a situation that now is beyond control.

And I think the Pakistan cricket board, the hierarchy, the people running cricket in Pakistan, need to take a good look at themselves rather than finger-pointing and blaming everyone but themselves. I mean, dropping seven players from a tour. It is unprecedented, Jim. It's bit extreme, yeah. But again, I think it's not really surprising. I think you'd ask Michael as well, like our experiences are playing against Pakistan.

I remember our last tour there. And then you've got different people in the middle of the ground before each game. And I remember seeing Nazarali. And I was like, what are you doing? Like in the squad, he's like, no, I'm a selector now. So you're like, oh, it's just stuff going on all the time. And I think it does need that, you know, Azar Ali's spot on, that he need that care.

And, like, where does this Pakistan team want to go? And how do we get back on track and then try and formulate a plan to do that? Because they've got some talented players, and they've got some really good, really good players that should be performing a lot better than they are. Do you have sympathy with the players, Michael? Yeah, I do.

Look, we'll have to wait and see what the investigation brings. but when you think Ali Usman got a fifer at Heddnley, you name me a finger spinner. I think Jalit's got one against New Zealand in the second inns a few years ago, but a finger spinner getting a fifer on the second day at Leeds, it just doesn't happen. He's been sent home.

You know, the captain for that first test match, Salman Ali Ague took a flying one-hander as a subfielder at Lords. He's been sent home. Karam Sudh, Sudh, I thought, bought a lot better at Lords than he did it Headingly, so he was getting better in the series. He's been sent home. I care about cricket

and Pakistan has been one of the real joys throughout my time playing and watching because they do bring a bit of chaos in a good way because I always look at Pakistan and think you know what the chaos will galvanise the group and they'll come back stronger this team won't come back stronger because of what's happened

there's no way I can see a Pakistan side arriving at Edgebaston and playing to any level that will compete with England and that's a real great shame and I think this last few days I think we've always looked at Pakistan cricket and we've always known there's been lots going on but when you become a laughing stock

and that's what they'd become this week I think that's just such a great shame it's the leaders, it's not the players I feel sorry for the players they're just in a vacuum of really poor leadership and it's those that are above them you know Mustak Ahmed was the coach in 2023 there's been 12 coaches since

12 since 2023 just work that out 12 Do you think, and bearing in mind that stat that Michael has said, Saj, and bearing in mind some of the stuff that has been said about some of these players by those high up within the PCB during this tour, do you get any sense that, not that I'm sure what they could do, but do you get any sense that the players are furious and want to fight back? I think the appetite is their chapters from the players,

but they're simply not good enough, and that's down to the system. the preparation. I think Pakistan cricket always had this tendency to produce players completely out of the blue. They'd spot a player from some rural remote village. They'd organise some camp and somebody would turn up on board 90 mile an hour

and they'd draft him in. And, you know, a senior player would stop and watch a local match and draft somebody in completely out of the blue. I think those days have gone, that natural talent, you know, that sort of, seen talent that we used to bring to the international fall.

I think that's completely gone. I think we're relying on a lot of, I know it sounds harsh, but a lot of average cricketers at the moment, cricketers who would rather play in T20 leagues, unfortunately, the first-class system in Pakistan is neglected. They keep changing the format, season after season. You know, like DCP, the next few years, you'll have all your fixtures, all your away to us, all your home tours sorted out. In Pakistan cricket, all of us, you're not.

sudden they organise a training camp for 30 players and then a few weeks later they might organise a domestic competition and then no-no will cancel that we'll organise something else. So, I mean, it's not just chaos on the field but it's chaos off the field as well. Saj, thank you very much for joining us. I appreciate it. Saj Sadiq, Sadiq, critic journalist. I mean, even stuff like the PCB director of high performance said this about Imam al-Hatt. for not batting whilst injured.

How is it possible that a pulled muscle ruled you out of batting in both innings? He should have tried and fought. He'll have to face an inquiry. I can't say he faked it, but a muscle pull like that cannot stop you from batting altogether. You can't start having inquiries

about whether someone's genuinely injured or not, can he? I'm guessing that they've had a scan and it's not as serious as what he was saying it is. That's the only way you can say he should have battered. because if you pull a calf, you can't bat, you can't run. It's not that simple. So, yeah, I mean, it's just...

It's farcical. It's farcical. And actually, it leaves a very... It leaves a very unsatisfying end to the summer, doesn't it, Michael? Let's be honest. It does. And I laugh because it is farcical, but I also love the way that Pakistan play cricket.

And I know that there'll be a huge amount of talent within their country and within the squads that we've seen that aren't maximising their potential but how do you maximise your potential when you lead so badly from above you with the chaotic nature of their structure from the chaotic way that they probably pick players

from a chaotic way that they manage their players within their groups you're never going to get consistency when you have management like that until they get it sorted at the top I think Pakistan are going to go through a really difficult time the one thing that I will never down

in Pakistan, they will have talent. They'll have plenty of players to pick in the future. Michael, Jimmy, thank you very much. Enjoy your two days at edge busting. Only term two, is it? I thought it might be quicker than that. This goes beyond what the KGB did back in the days. Conspiracy theories and the Football World Cup

is there ever one without the other? Well, I've been digging into one of the very best back in 1994. fool. Guy from Iraq gets a red card for a, you know, a dubious tackle. I'm James Montague, and from BBC 5 Live, this is Sports Strangers Crimes Presents. Shadows on the pitch. Listen on BBC Sounds.

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