Test Match Special - Lord's Day 1: Archer gets his cap & Mitchell Johnson's Ashes memories

Episode Date: August 14, 2019

Mitchell Johnson joins the pod to chat about his first experience of playing international cricket at Lord's when he went at more than 6 an over. He talks about dealing with a lack of confidence, hitting his peak after turning 30, and the highs and lows of one of the most exciting careers in the history of Ashes cricket.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Bring more gear, carry more passengers, face greater challenges. Welcome to the world of Defender, with seating up to eight, ample cargo space and legendary off-road capability. It's built to make the most of every adventure. Learn more at landrover.ca. TMS podcast at the Ashes. Download and subscribe by the BBC Sounds app. But it's going to be caught and England won the ashes.

Strauss is bold. Oh, bold by a beauty. Pitched in the rough and turned a mile. Botham swings again, hits that. It's six runs. It's a six runs. That's his hundred. Goff runs away on a hat trick and he bowls to.

He's bowled him. Darren Goff has taken a hat trick. No, is it? Is it the Ashes? Yes. England has bought the ashes. Hello, welcome to a very damp Lord's. We said on yesterday's podcast that today's outlook wasn't great

and in fact we haven't seen a ball bowl all day. We did get within seven minutes of the toss when the rain came this afternoon. Joffa Archer was presented with his cat by his good friend, Chris Jordan. So we can expect him to play tomorrow. It looks as if Sam Curran will miss out, in which case Leach and Denley would both play. Well, tomorrow is the Ruth Strauss Foundation Day here at Lords.

if you're coming, you're encouraged to wear red. Do try and have a listen to the chat that I had with Andrew Strauss and Glenn McGraw about their wives, bereavement, and the foundations they've set up in their names. It's an emotional and powerful listen. What Ruth and I were both most petrified about was the effect this we're going to have on the kids. You know, the kids are your everything, aren't they? And the thought that, you know, you have these thoughts of your mind that they're just not going to be able to deal with it

and they wouldn't be able to do school, and you'd see all these behavioral changes. And so for us in particular, going to our counsellor Jenny Thomas, who is a child grief and lost counsellor, and just explain the situation. And for her to actually say to us, listen, there's certain things you want to do. You know, you don't want to lock them away from this.

They need to be involved in it. They need to understand what's going on. You need to be open. You need to be not afraid to cry in front of them and explain how you're feeling. and that gives them permission to say how they're feeling. If you just do those things, there's nothing preventing them having a really rich and full and happy life. They're going to miss their mum terribly.

That's a given. But this won't be the end of them. It's going to change their life, but that doesn't mean they can't have a great life. You can hear that full conversation on this podcast feed. So there was no action to discuss here at Lords, but he wanted to bring you a fascinating chat with Mitchell Johnson, who's working on the TMS team this test match. His first experience of playing on this famous ground was an unhappy one.

He went at more than six and over in the first innings and wicketless in the second, as England won by 115 runs in 2009. In this chat with Isha Goua and Phil Tufnal, he talks about dealing with a lack of confidence, hitting his peak after turning 30, and the highs and loads of Ashes cricket, starting with his first tour here 10 years ago.

That tour had started. I had a really good season. Got 50-odd wickets, I think, test wickets in that calendar year and was named the best player going around and I was like, how good is this? Come to England, people are going to love me here and I'll go out there and bowl as fast as I can, get the crowd support and, geez, I was wrong.

But then I think it sort of started in Carter for me and, well, actually, it started in the tour game. I think it was in Hove when we had the precision. session of journalists that we had to walk down. It was just this long line of cameras and journalists and the questions, it was a barrage straight away and I was just blown away. And I think my expectations were just totally off. So I think that's where it started. It sort of probably started in that tour game. And look, we came to Cardiff and after that and I was sort of going okay. I was looking forward to playing a test match for my country,

an Ashes series, never played in one. And I've been around the 0506 one in Australia and was able to appreciate what those guys did then. The Australian players are like Glenn McGraar, Ricky Ponting, Justin Langer, Shane Warren, and having those guys and seeing how they prepared and things like that. So that was sort of a good start for me.

But to be over here, I got to Cardiff. About two days out, some stuff in the paper came out about my mum, not liking my girlfriend, now wife. And it just sort of took me by surprise, and I didn't know how to deal with it. And I remember Ricky coming up to me because it devastated me straight away. And I remember Ricky saying to me, just don't turn up to training tomorrow. Have a rest. Just relax, try and get your mind clear and come for the game and then switch on. So, yeah, I sort of...

How did you deal with that with your family? Oh, I didn't deal with it too well. I mean, there's issues still sort of there with my mum. So it's really difficult. But I think at the time, I didn't know what to do. I had people telling me, oh, you've got to do this, you've got to do that. But you have to deal with it in your own way. So, yeah, I basically remember the way.

warm up and I was feeling okay and I remember it's sort of kicked off here with Peterson hitting balls in warm up tennis balls into our area where we're running into bowl and we sort of turned around and said can you just hit them the other way someone's going to roll their ankle like like Glenn McGrath did basically very he was obviously doing it on purpose he was doing it to wind us up I don't think he was trying to injure anyone but I just think it was just you know yeah look at me um trying to you know get on the nerve of the Australian straight away at the start of series get on the right foot for him but he um kept doing it basically because what had happened was he'd stopped for two minutes we were okay then he started doing it again i kicked this ball miles away

um in a different direction because i was annoyed and then we started verbally going at each other and then a few personal insults came out from his on his behalf so yeah it was um stuart clark that had to drag me away at the time and uh poor collingwood was sitting on his bat just sort of having a bit of a laugh I think he thought it was quite funny and yeah, that's how the tour sort of started really in Asher's tour and I was, yeah, just young I was, wasn't, I didn't know my game that well at the time

I was just going on a role, I was playing well and I just, and Cardiff wasn't too bad it was the end of that match it was, I think it was Anderson and Penisard held off for 10 overs and I don't even think I got a bowl in that last 10 overs but then it came here and it just,

the bolts to the left, bolts to the right, started to just come in a little bit because I literally bowled to the left, bolt to the right here at Lords. The slope really did put me off and everything else was just coming ahead, I guess,

and the personal stuff was all, you know, in my head all the time. And you're a long way from home, aren't you? You're a long friend from home. I've had those kind of issues a couple of time. You're a long way from home.

People keep phoning you up, you know what I mean? It's like the dishwasher's broken. element but come on love you know what i mean i'm just australia 600 a four here you know i mean i've got to go out and bowl of park war and steve war you know but oh this is wrong wrong this is right and it very very very quickly sort of like mounts up and you try and sort of like separate yourself from it and try and concentrate what you're going to do but those things i mean i think nowadays

the guys are very well looked after in that respect and family's back home but not so long you know those things just play on your mind constantly i found it fascinating reading shane warns book and he's outwardly spoken about the fact that before every game if he had any issues with anyone within his immediate family his friends anyone he would call them up the night before sort it all out and then he would be in a clear frame of mind before he went out to play now not everyone can do that it's it's not possible and you as an athlete have to be able to put it to one side and be able to focus on what you want to do in the middle and it very much sounded like 2009 it was a bit of a buildup of stuff if you compare that to

1314 and you you let kp get to you in that warm up do you think that would have happened in 1314 well i sort of look at that and i think back and i go if i didn't go through that period of no nine i wouldn't have had the career i had and i wouldn't have played 13 14 i think i don't i just don't think i would have played cricket anymore so i was able to go through those experiences which are they can be horrible at the time and you feel alone and but i had great support I did have great support. Jess, my girl from my wife now, and she was with me and always supportive

and family, other family at home and friends. But it's just, you've got to find a way. And I went through all that, and it made me stronger. And 13-14, I actually remember, and I think KP wrote it in his book at Brisbane, I often would go back at the batsman if they had a bit of a dip. And he knew straight away that's what I would do. So I remember bowling a ball.

He wasn't on, he might have been on strike and he got the single. As he was running past me, he said something to me. And I just didn't reply. And I just put my hand over my face and sort of just laughed a little bit and sort of got on with it. And I think in his book he said something along the lines of he just knew at that point that there was something different about me. And he thought, it's not the same Mitch Johnson. Yeah.

So come on then. How did you get to that point? 2013 you've broken your toe you've had some time out of the game who were you speaking to Dennis Lilly was a mentor of yours did you go and chat to him about

mentality of the game about your fast bowling your technique anything like that I mean I always went back to him he was one of the handful of people that I could go back kept things simple he wanted me to be tough out in the middle he just knew me really well and kept it

really really simple go out there bowl fast and be yourself so I had a really good plan after 2011 and breaking my toe. I didn't want to play the game. I got to the point of that roller coaster career, I just had enough. I was mentally drained, physically drained. I'd lost weight, didn't feel myself. And I just felt like I was letting the team down. So I was wishing upon an injury. And it came along in the South Africa test match where Paddy Cummins hit the winning runs. I think he got six for in the match or seven for and that's where his career started, but mine sort of looked like it was going to end. And I was in a moon boot basically for

two months and the first month I just really didn't miss the game at all. And then second month in I was like, right, I want to play test cricket again. I want to play for my country because what had happened was I felt like I hadn't played my best consistent cricket and I hadn't done it my way, which was bowl fast. I'd always had people sort of saying, oh, you've got to swing the ball, you've got to do this and that. I had to change my action a lot earlier on my career because I had stress fractures. But I kept holding on to, I'd go out in game situations and I'd be thinking about my

action instead of thinking about how I was getting someone out. So I was in the wrong frame of mind. And once I had an injury, I spoke to a few different people, guys in the SAS back home about mental strength because they're, I mean, I'm not comparing. what those guys do to a sport, but just to be able to be in there think about how they deal

with things was really good. It helped me. Also, just having belief. That was another thing. Having belief in myself that I could actually do it and have the ability to go out there, which is what Ricky Ponting had here in 2009. He always kept giving me the ball, he goes, mate, just keep going, keep going, keep

getting it through. And, yeah, it wasn't until I had my own belief and wanted to do it my way. It was almost like a switch. So, yeah, it's an amazing feeling. I mean, I did different training and worked really hard and got back in. And I was told the press, I heard the press were saying, you're 31 years or 30 or 31 years of age, fastballers are done. And I actually hit my peak after 30, which is sort of unusual, I guess.

But I was pretty happy with it. Yeah, yeah. It's strange, actually, isn't it? because you think of sort of like batsmen going through crisis as a confidence when techniques go and perhaps the odd spinner as well. But, you know, you don't think of the big quick sort of like having a little bit of a worry about it, do you know? I mean, you go, come on, boys, you know, big strong boys, get down there and knock the reds off, you know what I mean? But it just goes to show how it affects every person, you know what I mean?

There's no shame in wanting to get injured, by the way. Phil Tuffman wanted to get injured all the time when he was facing Alan Donald. Not at all. I always had to be kicked out there on my phrase. but no such luck get yourself out there Phil go on mate we only need 400 to win

but go on there you go I remember watching you in 2013 in the IPL and you just come back bowling with a white ball on your hand for the Mumbai Indians and it was rapid and everyone then was talking about you

saying hang on a second Mitch Johnson is back did that help you do you think just being able to be successful over there feeling in good rhythm. I know it's limited over as cricket, but do you think that helped you get back to where you were? 100%.

And a few reasons why. Actually, I remember Sachin saying something about that, I think at the end of the tournament, that Mitch Johnson's going to be big for the ashes coming up in Australia. So, you know, to have that sort of a guy of that caliber talking about where I was at. It's a great endorsement, isn't it? Yeah. So I think at the start,

that was one day cricket I was the shorter form of the game I was really comfortable with because I felt like I knew exactly what I wanted to do with the new ball I could swing it and especially in IPL cricket you swing that new ball for one or two overs and then then you sort of go into using your slower balls your change-ups use your bounce up but I just for me it was a really good sign because the ball felt really good it came out really well I remember playing against Aaron Finn and the ball was swinging back. I actually bowled him in one of the games.

And he even said, I think afterwards he said, like, that's the Mitch Johnson we always knew. So it gave me a lot of confidence, that's for sure. I had a lot of good rhythm. I was bowling a lot of good short balls, which became a really big strength of mine. And in that 13, sort of going into that 13, 14 series, the plan was I bowled short overs, short spells.

and that's what Michael Clark wanted me to do, to run in Bolfast, be aggressive, be intimidating. And what a lot of people forget, well, in this situation, oh, you bowled so well, you got 37 wickets. I was amazing. And I said, yeah, but Ryan Harris, Peter Siddell, Nathan Lyon, what they did was incredible because they all stuck to their roles and played their role as well as myself.

So they deserve as much credit. And I think they still have that credit, but it's, now the game's all about runs and wickets, isn't it? And that's what people see. I think if I bought 94 miles an hour, I don't think I'd bother pitching one out, actually. Yeah. Yeah, why would you?

Well, occasionally. It was my weakest delivery anyway, so why, yeah. Why? Oh, bullies, come on. The bats they use these days as well. But you had that time at the IPR, and then you weren't selected for the 2013 Ashes here in England. Was that difficult for you?

Or do you look back at it in hindsight now and think, actually, that was pretty good for me? Um, initial reaction was disappointment, a little bit of like anger in some ways, but at the same time I felt like I wasn't ready to play test cricket, Ashes cricket in England in the conditions because my style of bowling was the hit, hit the deck type of bowler. I wasn't getting it up there like nice and full and trying to swing it. And as we saw in the last test match in Birmingham, the ball would sit up beautifully and guys were defending really easily off the back foot. And that was almost like my stock ball, my length. But so that was in the back of my mind through all that. And I was like, I definitely wasn't ready. So I was happy. I got on with it and I just kept training hard and making sure that I was ready for my opportunity.

Because I still wasn't even sure if I was going to play the next series in Australia. Right. But you did come over here for the one day series. So you had to face the crowds then. Yeah. And that was a good test for me. And it put all those things in place like the song. I was able to use that song and that just blocked out all the noise.

But then I also started to enjoy it as well and give a bit of banter back. And I think once I realized that all that, because I think I got really tense at one point there. So after 09, 09, 10, 11, I just went off the boil a little bit with the media, the fans, myself. I sort of just hid myself away a bit and it was the wrong thing to do. It was a little bit like what you're saying before earlier. It's good to be able to talk about things when you're feeling not your best.

It actually get that stuff out there. And so I was able to do that later on in my career in that 13-14 series and just work. It's about being a better person. And I was able to do that off the field and then it translates on the field as well. So was it literally just friends, family, teammates as well? Teammates, yeah. Any psychologists in that?

They're a psychologist, yeah. And look, I still see a psychologist to this day because it helps me. It makes me feel good. I'm able to talk. I'm not a big communicator in general, so it just helps me a lot. And these are some of the things you look back and go, I wish I had that earlier in my career, and it could have been this and that. But that's your path.

And that's what these guys have now. They have all the support. I had probably a handful of people that I could always go back. D.K. was one of them. Troy Cooley was another one because I'd spent a lot of time. And those two guys were very good mates. They've spent a lot of time together as well. But I spent heaps of time with Troy at the Academy. He was a guy that worked on my action. Dennis worked on my mindset, a little bit with action as well, but tried to not change too much. And Jess, my wife, was another person who mentally was so strong because of her career path as well. She was a black,

the black belt and karate and competed and third in the world. She was third in the world. Do not cross her. Not now. Do not cross her. But I wouldn't cross up. She's, yeah, she's Yugoslav Italian. So she's got a bit of fire about us.

Blimey, black belt. She was absolutely amazing because she understood where I was at and she was always so supportive. And yeah, it makes a big difference when you have those good people around you and know you really well. Well, you're just not going to have good days all the time. I can remember.

When I, you know what I mean, When I had a couple of good days, I found the first time I was sort of like, I think I've got seven for or something against New Zealand or something, and I'm sitting there going, oh, well, this is fantastic, you know what I mean? And then the next day you get up, or the next time you're bowl, you know what I mean?

It's a completely different set of situations, you know, conditions and situations and everything, and you get like one for 95, and you start thinking to yourself, well, hold on a minute, why don't I get me seven for again? You know what I mean? Things just changed so quickly,

and you've got to take all of that on board, little bit. And it's a bit of a, you start then down to yourself, you know what I mean? Well, you know, did I have fried eggs or did I have scrambled eggs? Did I get out of bed left hand side or right hand side? What sort of happened that made that my day? You know what I mean? So it's very difficult sometimes as a bowler. And as you say, sometimes you're running up and you're pounding in and you're bowling back of a length and the boys are sort of like getting the cigar route. Just going, look, honey going, that was the most frustrating thing as a fast bowler when you just get dead battered and blocked. And it's like, oh, come on.

is not good. A couple of weeks ago, they were whizzing past the nose and they were going like that. What's the difference? But I wanted to ask you, sort of on that with the, I felt body language is a big part.

Yeah. So I used to try and trick myself. I did it sort of through that 13, 14 series and even when times I didn't perform as well as I would have liked, it was all about body language. So the 15 series here, I remember bowling in Cardiff and going,

okay, I'm not really on here, but as long as I show good body language, I would trick my mind into thinking I'm going well here. and it actually made me start to bowl well. Yeah, yeah. Well, I had two or three things in my bowling, you know what I mean, which was they always used to say, get your chin down a wicket, you know what I mean?

So you have these little sort of like... Cues. Yeah, little cues, exactly. You know, batsmen have little triggers that go, this, that, and I had that as well. But then also, I had to get a bit angry, which is quite difficult as a spin bowler. You know what I mean?

I can remember, you know, the guys that slip go, come on tough as you, you know what I mean? You should have to get biting on something, you know what? I mean, which made me better. That's why it was very difficult towards the... Did you ask them to roll you up? Well, yes and no. Well, yes and no.

You know what I mean? I think Jimmy Anderson's a little bit like that as well, you know, and Broadie. You know, you've got to sometimes you just, you know, you're running in sort of, you know, you want to be there. You want to be 100%. And it's just, it's not just in your body sometimes, you know what I mean? Or in your mind. And so if you get that sort of, get that little bit of bite, that little bit of spark, you know, I used to go looking for a bit of a, you know, I used to go looking for a bit of a bit of confidence. I completely agree.

Is that why you were out until three or four in the morning the night before we're in. Well, no, no. Well, I used to find that quite good, actually, because you used to turn up. You used to turn up, and everyone used to know, know you'd been out, you know, having a bit of a late night or something or whatever. You know what I mean? Anything crikey. Well, you know, I mean, I better perform here, otherwise I'm going to be in trouble.

You know, and a few of the boys use that as a bit of a kind of a kind of a... You better perform here, otherwise you're getting in a bit of trouble, you know what I mean? And so there are a little, lots of different things. things that get you into the mood. I mean, with you Mitch, it looks like, I mean, I was in the zone a couple of times. Yeah, yeah. And it's a lovely little place to be, isn't it? You know what I mean?

And I reckon in that Ash's series, you got into that zone, didn't you? It was the zone, yeah. You don't get into it too often. No, you don't. And it's what it is, you feel like you feel very light. Yeah. You feel... Can't bowl a bad ball. Can't bowl a bad ball. You feel like

your mind is so clear. Yeah. And it just feels like Almost like tunnel vision as well. You feel like you're going to get a work at every ball. You just feel like, yeah, you're just going to dominate. Yeah. And when you're in those moments, you need to assess it and think, okay, why is this working? Because that was one thing I learned from early days because I said I didn't know why I was bowling well.

No, that's right. Me too. So then it's sort of the maturity, the older you get, the more you play. You start to realize those things. And some do it at different stages. I was a bit later, but I also started the game a bit later as well. So that's the beauty about the game. Yeah, and you can't get into the zone every day you play.

It's as simple as that. And when you get a little bit older, you then realize, well, it's not quite happening. So what I'll do is I'll just do lines and lengths and this and that and try and get me two for and my three for and go at two or three and over and everything. And then I'm doing my job. But then, you know what I mean? When it's on you, when it's on you, make the most of it, you know what I mean? Because here we go.

It's spinning, it's doing this. People are running down. I could be running up backwards and thrown out over my head with my tongue out of me. I'm getting a wiki on you know what I mean. It's a lovely old place to be. And that's where a good captain helps as well because they know you inside and out and if you're not quite on,

they can help you get through that situation because, yeah, you're not going to be able to bowl the perfect ball. You're not going to be able to bowl the way you want to all the time. On that, sometimes it's that spell. Okay, well, I just, I'm bowling too straight, but I can't change it because if I start bowling trying to change it, I might bowl it too wide outside of the off stop and get cut. because you're trying too hard to do something that's just not working on that day.

So it's about, yeah, setting maybe your captain has to be on board with you and set a straighter field or leg side field or that's just what you have in that spell or on that day or whatever. I used to, when things weren't quite going white for me, I just used to go through me little triggers like that and then I used to just bolt to the wicket keepers' gloves. Didn't used to try and do anything. I just said, right, there's the wicket keeper because you'd see them just standing there like that.

And so you'd just run up, not even really look at the batsman, and just bolt at a wicket-keeper's gloves to try and get that rhythm. And then all of a sudden you get, you know, as you said, you don't want all these people in or anything like that. And I think that's what's happened to Mowing Allie a little bit.

You know what I mean? All of a sudden these fields are... You know, I've never had sort of like men on the cut boundary and all over there, you know what I mean? You set the ring field. Setting a field from your bad board, probably not...

Yeah, that's right. No, it's not. You know what I mean? I'd have that ring field, a man on the drive and a slip, you know what I mean? And just plug away out there and then all of a sudden you'll just,

You bowl those two or three overs. You'll only go for about nine or ten runs and all of a sudden one will come out nice and you go, oh, hold on a minute, here we go. Going back to 13 14, 37 wickets at 13. Nice. I've been incredibly proud of that. Yeah.

Well, I guess, yeah, look, I am. I'm definitely proud of it. And I often get asked, is that the best series? Was it the most enjoyable? It's really difficult when you get asked those questions because, yes, it's an Ashes series. And we won 5-0, able to perform, do your role, play your role, do it in front of screaming fans.

You know, some of those moments through that series where the crowd just gets so hyped up and you never forget those memories and those sounds. And then I think of the series afterwards going to South Africa. And for me, that was probably almost the best series because they knew what was coming. and then they still weren't able to deal with it. So, yeah, I don't know.

It's a tough one because I still think it's Ashes is number one for me. And that series definitely, it's a bit of redemption as well for all the down times that you have. So to be able to, yeah, it definitely is number one. It's nice, it's strange that when you're playing, you just, you know, you don't really see. those personal milestones, it's all just

the role, which is the team then winning and what have it. When you sit back and you're retired and you put your feet up, that's when you can sit there and go, cool, blammy, an half-bowl well there at Sydney, you know what I mean? God, you know, that was a really good day for me. But it's strange that when you're involved in that team environment and you're

going for a series and what have you. You know, of course you sit there and the boys come in and go, well, don't you've got your five through and your hundred. That's why you have them, because they're like little personal milestones. But you're just almost glad that we're all off the all off the park and having a bat. Yeah, no, that's good, but we've got a game ahead,

you know, we've got to keep going, we're going, you sort of just go with the moment. Yeah, you don't really think about those milestones and I know when I retired, guys were like, oh, why don't you go for, like, D.K. Lily's, like, record of 355 and I was like, well, I'm not really, that doesn't interest me.

Like, I've played the game the way I've wanted to, I've ended it, and I'm happy, and I have no regrets. There you go. So, had some good days, have a few bad ones. Exactly. Plenty of bad ones. A couple of good ones. The TMS podcast at Lords for the second test of the ashes.

We're back on air at 1025 on Thursday for what will be a very special day for the Ruth Strauss Foundation. Join us then. Available every day during every test. This is the TMS podcast at the Ashes from BBC Radio 5 Live. Thank you.