Test Match Special - Mark Wood on injury, Ashes, and Stephen Fleming

Episode Date: August 20, 2026

Simon Mann and Steven Finn chat with Mark Wood about his injury recovery and the mental challenges of a long period out of the game. He also talks very honestly about the 25/26 Ashes down under and the incoming England Test head coach Stephen Fleming.

You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. So I've got Steve Finn, I've got Mark Wood alongside you as well. Hello, Woody's lovely to see you. I've seen plenty of you over the last few weeks on the... Yes. On the telly and heard plenty of you on the radio. I'd rather be seeing you out in the middle. They'll sit tones on the radio.

Well, I don't... Yes, indeed. You've got a very soothing, soothing accent as well. You've just getting the soothing voice there, haven't you? You've been introduced as the soothing voice. Yes, I know. Your accent's a lovely accent, though, isn't it? I mean, once you start to understand it,

it's a bit of breaking through, doesn't it, Finney? It does a little bit, but I played with Woody for about a good few years, didn't we? So I've decided it right now, so I understand everything. Let's just start with that, because I've got such lovely memories, Woody, you're charging down the hill here and bowling at ridiculous speeds. Yeah. How are you getting on? When did your last bowl?

My last ball was in Australia, so in November time, yeah. a long time ago, been a very frustrating 18 months off the back of the How do you cope with that way? To actually, you know, you're a cricketer, you're a body. Yeah, it's hard, but what else can I do? You know, all the jokes of all he said, jet again, all that kind of stuff like, you just have to wear it, don't you? So you just wear it and just say, look, that's the way it is.

That's nothing to do it and try again, try again. And you only get one career and you know, you're a long time retired and things that. So I'll keep trying until my body says no, but, you know, it's been a tough one this one. Yeah, I mean, you get up in the morning. You got a couple of kids, you sort them out. But is it quite, you can't. I miss it. I definitely miss it.

You can't do any running or anything. Not at the minute. I'm close to running now. After having this second operation, I'm close to running now. So I'll have a, you know, get up the speed of my running and then see if I can bowl after that from there, really. That's the next step. Run first, then say if I can bowl and then make the decision on my career from there. Yeah.

I'm filling a day. must be quite, I mean, homes under the hammer and that sort of stuff, I mean, you know. Well, the kids keep, I mean, it's been nice being in the holidays, a six-week holidays because obviously I've done a bit of commentary and the kids keep you busy. But when they go back to school,

it's, yeah, it can be pretty tough when you're just trying to fill time. I mean, I'm desperate to play cricket and I generally love it. I would play for Ashton if I could. You would? Yeah, my club side. You know, I love the game, so I would love to play

it's just a game whether my body allows me to do that. Yeah. Play to batsmen for club cricket, could you? I mean, that hook shot? Oh, that hook shot was. coming on nicely. Yeah, not off on its prime.

Not sure I'm making the top seven of me club say that's the problem. So yeah, I would love to play some sort of career, especially my boy, he's getting into a little bit. He does his All-Star cricket and I coach at the Cricket Club there. So that's give me something I look forward to on a Friday night. So all-star cricket with him and one day I'd love to play a game with him. Yeah, nice. Oh, well, that's a nice dream.

Yeah, good. Finney, you've had these breaks out to, haven't you? Yeah. It's not easy. And you kind of, you sort of disappear off the radar, as well, don't you? Oh, Steve McFinn, I remember him. You know, he hasn't been seen for months. Yeah, and I think that's the thing, the hardest thing that I found was the

realisation that the show goes on without you, because you feel such an integral part whilst you're in the dressing room and whilst you're there playing and performing, you're on tour. But then watching from afar is actually horrible because you're sat on the sofa watching your mate, and they're all laughing and joking on the TV. And you're thinking, hold on, how can they be happy without me there? It doesn't quite feel fair. So there's that side of it.

But then for a fast bowler, and the thing that Woody has always managed to do through his injuries is come back and bowl the same pace and come back and have that same zip and bite. But I had a big knee injury in 2017 and never regained that zip or bite again. And then you're constantly chasing a version of yourself that you can't obtain anymore.

And you remember what it was like to run down the hill at Headingley and bowl 90 miles an hour. You remember what it was like to, if someone drove you through the covers, to be able to keep them on their toes by bowling a good short ball. But then when I came back to play,

especially the last time that I tried, you bowl a ball, someone drives it through the covers. You then bowl your bouncer as the follow-up because your mentality is still of that 90-mile-an-hour bowler that you remember that you were. And that gets pulled 30 yards in front of square. And you're there thinking, this isn't the same game that I remember playing

five or six years ago. It just doesn't feel the same. And that was the realization that came to me, I could have retired much earlier than I did. I knew I was never going to get back to the same enjoyment of playing the game as when I could bowl the pace that I used to. But I clung on and then, yeah, there was a couple of light bulb moments in that last year or so

where I was just like, I enjoy sitting up here and talking to you and all the great people we work with far more than fighting this version of myself that I wish I could obtain again, which I couldn't. I wouldn't go back to bowling 80 mile an hour. If I mean I'm all in, otherwise I don't say the point to me. Even who play the game with your boy in a few years time? Yeah, but maybe club cricket like that,

but professionally, I don't think I could go back and just bowl 80 mile and hour and just wouldn't feel like me or it wouldn't be me. And I don't think I would enjoy to be that version of myself like Finney says. So I'd have to be all in or... Different skills too, that isn't it? I mean, look at Mahada Bass or look at Olly Robinson, the way he...

Yeah, absolutely. It's not that I don't respect it. I mean, these guys, my point is if I bowl 80 mile now, there's 100 ball as better than me doing that. So it just doesn't feel like I give the best version of myself, really. It's all on our thing. Yeah, and especially maybe if I was 24 and this had happened, and I'd say, right, I can fashion myself a career by being that 80 mile now.

But now being 36, I'm like, well, do I want to come back for a year? Just to do that? Yeah, too, to do that. I'm not really sure it benefits me as well as anybody else. I think the thing is like that and what happened to me was I was still trying as hard as I I still felt as I was running up as if I was going to bowl 90 miles an hour. I was running up trying as hard when it left my fingertips I was grunting as if I was bowling 90 miles an hour but it's coming out 81 82 and it's just a completely different game I couldn't brace my knee any

I could never brace my knee again after my first knee surgery I couldn't then whip over the top of that knee. So I was bowling through the crease as opposed to slamming down and bowling into the pitch. But I just lost any of that kinetic whip over the top of my front leg. And however many drills I tried, however many mental challenges that I would set myself to try and force myself to brace my front knee, I could never do it to the same extent again. And that's why I had that 10-mile and out differentiation in pace between me at my best and then me at my worst. But it is quite ruthless, Woody, isn't it? I mean, I remember Stuart Broad, he did an intercostal

in an Adelaide test match, won Ashies. Trey, that's nasty, wasn't it? I mean, it was... And his, actually, his mum was flying out for the next test match, it was at Perth. But almost immediately he was injured, bang, sort of like a guillotine. Not with us anymore.

In fact, he came and worked with us on the radio during that match. I remember him seeing his mum, who just arrived, it was all very heartbreaking, really. She flowed out to see him play. And he was absolutely, you know, hopeless but it was just like boom that's it out you go thank you not with us anymore a replacement was flown in got where it was now um and uh you know life in the england camp goes on and is that been like for you have you had much of

england connection or is it all now durham once once you're done with england england i've looked after us from a medical point of view um the physios and the doctors and things because obviously i'm still contracted to england i think come september that might be a different story if i lose my certain contract um which is probably most likely. But I've been very lucky to play for as many games as I have and didn't think I'd play as many as what I would get to.

So I'm achieved some great things. I think I look back at it more as I've been very lucky, really. I mean, the stigma of injuries is always going to follow me around. I wish it didn't because, you know, I put in all the hard work, but it just seems to be that

I'm always going to be associated with heaven injuries. I wish my career had been slightly different in that sense. and felt that probably the last five years is the best I've bowled for England and I felt threatening every time I'd played so it's just a shame that it's come around at this time and the longer it goes on it sort of it diminishes you in a way that you just that fight in you that you want to keep coming back it just whittles away slightly every time because it's been 18 months now so champions trophy was when I first hit hurt my knee had the surgery built myself back up for the ashes played one game and now I've been out for ages again so it just

wittles you down. I think that guillotine that you're talking about is like you just feel like you're distant from the team and at times you can feel a little bit embarrassing. You know, you feel like my job is to be a cricket and I haven't been a cricketer now for six, seven, eight months and would you pop downstairs

now to the dressing room and go say hello? I would, yeah, I would, I would do that but like Finney says, the team does move on and whether I would want to do that when it's their sacred space. I'm not sure. I would pop down if they invited me, but I wouldn't You wouldn't just turn up, we've been looking at the door and walk in.

No, no, I don't think you should do that. Would you do that? No, no. And you're right. You kind of want to be respectful of the guys who are in there. It's such a massive character. I'm pleased to see you, wouldy, I'm sure. They won't, you know, close the door on your face.

Not today, thanks. But you're right, you're just respectful. I think you understand when you're in that dressing room, how sacred those four walls are. And even though you feel like you're just on the outside of it, you kind of feel like you're intruding a little bit, even if you're not, there's absolutely no way it would you be intruding if you went down there.

But it's your perception as a player. And that's something that's really, really challenging when you're fighting injuries, when you're in and out of a team because of it. You're desperate to feel part of it, but you just don't quite feel like a true part of it. And the embarrassment is a real thing. Like you kind of feel ashamed that you're letting everyone down,

even though it's not your fault. You do everything you can to be fit. You do, when you play, you try your absolute hardest. It's not injuries or injuries. They happen for fast bowlers. And, yeah, the embarrassment of it, I think, is something as well. You kind of go in there and you feel like you've let yourself down. You've let your teammates down.

That's how you feel within your own brain. There's no way anyone else feels that. But, you know, it eats you up inside. And the dynamic changes, though, as well, I guess. I remember at Durham, Alan Walker, you see at me. remember we had Dale Beckenstein as captain of Durham. And I was just a young lad coming through, and then Banks was sort of like,

I don't know if he was moved on or if he retired. But then it was like, I remember I said in a whack, Alan Walker, I was like, how are we going to move on from banking? He was like, every team moves on. So you would never think James Anderson, Stuart Broad, you would just move on. You know, the lads I played with, Wokes, Finn, Anderson, Broad.

All these guys, they're all gone now. So, like, the team evolves and the next cycle comes through. And ultimately, we're talking about going in the dress room. I know a lot of these lads, but this is a new newer team to me. My team, the only ones that I've really left is Root, and Stokes was there. That's about this. The previous team. Most of them are gone now.

Moen Ali's gone. All these guys that I would have played with, and even I look at the one-day team, the 2019 team is like Josh Butler, maybe Archa Rashid. That's pretty much it. Everybody moves on. The team recycles, the dynamic changes. These lads form bonds and go on two out with each other, and that's the way it is.

You want to hang on as long as you can because I love playing sport. I love playing for England. There's nothing like paying for England. But you kind of be so naive to think, like, oh, that you deserve to be. The team moves on, and that's the way that sport happens, and that's the way that sport should be.

I can't remember when did you actually leave the Australia to? Do you leave straight after Perth? I left after Noosa. I got out of there. You're on your own, lads. Yeah. But actually, to be fair, you're a T-total. You weren't one of those with trays of beer.

I think that's why they sent me home. Afternoose, you haven't done a good enough job for these lads. You get yourself out of there. I'm surprised they didn't have all the photographers that's lined up. Well, there's Mark Wood. He's on Coke Zero. Yeah, I didn't fit the form there. I mean, when there was that thing with Duckie was now when he video and they were like,

why's none of the lads looking after him? I was in bed three hours ago before that. I was well tucked up in bed. Yeah, so now you can look back at that. I mean, the part of the tour that you're involved in, how do you look back at that? Because there's no doubt there's a big disappointment everywhere about it. Would you have done, would you like things to be done differently?

Yeah, I look back on it. Shamefully, I'd say. You feel, I feel shame. Like, we should have won that first game. I think the whole tour is different if we're in at Perth. Australia were there for the take we had a hundred lead

and we didn't get enough runs but we still felt because of the two scores in the first innings of each team were quite low Ozzie's bowled out for 150 we got 180 or something that and then when we're bowled out it's disappointing because you haven't had your feet up very long and you're thinking we're back out there again

but I also felt confident because we bowled them out first things I'm thinking well if the pitch has got if we bowl like we did first things and the pitch's got a little bit in it, then we could bowl them out again. But then the game just seemed to be in fast forward, which is why I sort of feel shame as this, like, the game was finished.

I remember at one point, it's a massive bowl stadium and Gus Attenson was bowling, and we were just bowling bouncers at head, and he was smacking them. And then I remember looking up at the score and going, this game's finished. Like, it's just been in fast forward,

and then I stopped the player. I remember going over to Gus and gone, look, what are we actually doing here? Because if we don't, this is literally like the last resort. If you don't change it now, we're finished. The game is literally gone. And he'd like 60 to win or something like that. And it's like, look, if we don't get a wicked here, it's over.

And then we had a little chat and little thinking. It just, he was just so good that day. But we were a bit off. They were a bit on. And then the momentum was just for them. But if we, I just look back in it and think, what a, what a shame I. I'm a total missed opportunity. And the whole tour felt a bit like that.

I felt sorry for those who, for whom that would only be a one-off. And I look back on it from a personal point of view that I just was nowhere near ready. I just wasn't. What more could you have done? Nothing. Played some games before? Maybe, but I tried to do that. I tried to play for Durham.

I tried to play the one day series in Ireland, which was a T20 series, but it would have been at least some cricket. But obviously because they were frightened of my injury, that I was told not to then to bowl in the practice game in Perth and then come to Perth my knee probably still wasn't right and then my hamstring

and I'd never had a hamstring problem my whole career, never ever and I think it was the hamstring was overcompensating for my knee was protecting my knee and that's why it got tight or saw whatever happened there and I just, I remember bowling in the net to Perth

and I was almost convincing myself being like I'm ready to go I'm ready to go and then in the back of my mind thinking I'm nowhere near already here. I'm nowhere near. When you know your body so well as a bowler, you know when something doesn't quite feel right. You'd imagine that what were you 35 at the time?

There'd be some degree of listening to the 35-year-old bowler who understands his body to say, what do you need to do to feel ready to play in a test match? It's surprising that that wasn't the case. It took me to New Zealand. Me, Tungie Jof, went to New Zealand early because there was one day to are there, and we did some bowling in the nets and out in the middle

and stuff, but it's not the same. And secondly, whenever I bowled, it'd say 80 or 90% my knee was okay. But then when I had to get my top, top end, every time I bowled throughout that seven months from the operation to when I bowled at 100% my knee blew up every time, swollen. And then I had to either have an injection

or I had to let it settle. And that happened three or four times only when I was at the very, very top end. And then I went to Loughborough and we did a training camp there, and I bowled 100% there. And my knee was all right. And then they were like, right, well, take you in the New Zealand. But I wanted instead of going to New Zealand to play the back end of September for Durham or the T20s in Ireland for England

Play some games. Yeah, but that was decided that that wasn't the best path. We're going to take New Zealand where the team is, get you amongst the team, you've been out of while, la la la, all that kind of stuff. And look, the blame shouldn't be on anybody. The blame is on, the way that I feel about it personally is that I just didn't give a good account myself there. I bowled okay. But it just was, I've watched it back. And coincidentally, I remember, Woksy text me at the end of day one.

He was like, what's wrong? I was like, what do you mean? He's like, you didn't look right. And it's weird that people can see that in me. And he was like, you just didn't look like yourself. And I think people can see it's either my body language or my action or something. But I remember him texting me on the nighttime and being like, what's wrong? I was like, mate, my knee's still giving his jip.

Like, it's literally like someone's ramming a hot dagger into the side of me leg every time I'm landing. And he's like, and that's an awful place to be. in the middle of a game. Because you're like, you've got nowhere to go. You're thinking about landing every time. You're not really in the battle. You're in the battle, but you're not really in the battle. And I'm trying to push the speed and I'm trying not to embarrass myself in front of 60, 80,000 people,

then millions watching on TV. So it's a horrible place to be in. I've been in that position a few times where you're bowling injad. And, you know, I would never stop bowling. I kept showing up. I kept trying to bow for the captain if you need it is. But it wasn't the version of myself that was going to help the team win. Yeah.

There does seem to be an agreement now that there's going to be a warm-up game of a high caliber, proper calibre before every test series. I mean, presumably you'd think that's a good thing because you can bowl as much you like in the nets, can't you? But you need a game on your... It depends. It depends. I didn't...

Before that spell here at Henley, I hadn't played a game. And I'd come off the back of a one day tour, then I had an elbow injection. Then I played the game here. So I hadn't played any cricket, but I was fresh. The difference between that my knees is that, mentally I knew I was ready to go, whereas my knee, I'd had all that backlog of months thinking, I'm not ready to play here. I'm just, I don't know how it's going to go. And I was almost

convinced myself that the team were, the coaches and the medics were like, you look good. Like that was almost convinced me to, right, actually, this is just the way, this is just the way it is. This is my knee now. I'm going to, this is how I'm going to be. And yeah, so I feel a bit of embarrassment, a bit of shame and just can't use that in the radio a bit of a real frustration that that wasn't me. Yeah

and when you left after Nusa and you went home what was sort of the mood, what was a spirit like within the camp? I mean was it kind of unraveling at that stage? I mean the ashes were still alive. Was it unraveling? It was too nil down? No not really I think it was just searching. We're under big... I felt it was it was under big pressure.

Like people can say it the one to about when Australia come here, the, you know, they go under the radar. But it's totally, if they get followed, like we got followed in Australia, I'll, I don't, I'll be amazed because every corner we went on, every corner, there was a guy hiding in the bushes with a camera. It would mean Stokes walked down the beach promenade front. Just went for a walk and this guy has fallen out the bush with his camera. And then we've got reporters running after us, asking us questions.

literally every, they were waiting to trip open. People might say, well, then why give them an excuse? I kind of agree with that, and I think that's okay, fair enough. But also the scrutiny and pressure that the team was under, I felt even in the dressing room, it just felt, it just felt like we were from a team that the environment was usually very relaxed, as in Baz's team quite relaxed. That's, you know, this is the way we'll play, this is one method.

there was some just, there was more heated discussions than I'd remembered in the team and more lads trying to get together and looking for answers. You know when like things are going right and you're looking for answers instead of naturally them just playing out and you're almost like, not crisis, but like everybody's like, well how we're going to fix this or the Aussies are doing this? How are we going to combat that? And it was just more of that than probably I was used to in that coaching era. I think there's a similarity to in 2013-14 when we went down there. And the team, the team, was a team that had some great players but coming towards the back end and you just you just want to feel like there's some degree of control and I'd imagine if you're in a leadership position you're there thinking I just want some sort of control and on that tour Andy Flower went for like extra levels of control you're not going out you're not doing this all fell apart and everything fell apart so spectacularly and I think it's that is that pressure of always feeling like there's no escape ever unless you lock yourself in your room and there's no danger in there you but but you go mad you can't do that for three months so you want to go out but it's so different there you walk out the front door your hotel cameras yeah and even it has always been like that I mean yes I agree

also it shouldn't be an excuse like this shouldn't be an excuse like we didn't play well like let's get done to the main problem is we didn't play well and and and a lot of times we were doing interviews and things that I think we're saying outlandish things that probably didn't help the cause but you know just where did things when you asked us

how it felt it just felt like it was more like a huge pressure cooker that more so than normal and I mean we were both there at the back of the commentary boxes on lunch on day two at Perth and what happened

in 2010 11 when we won down there was we turned Australia on themselves and there was in fighting there were changes in the team the press turned completely on the Australians and none of the focus was on us. It happened inversely to what has happened on the last tour and on 2013-14. And it was there for the taking. That's the thing that I found the most frustrating as someone there desperately wanting England to win

was that it was on our fingertips. It was. The infighting had started at lunch on day two. They wanted Kowaj's head for the golf incident. they wanted the captains, they wanted smear, there was just so many moving parts there that were ready for Australia to implode and a crazy hours cricket.

Four hours later it was all done. They then doubled down the other way on us, which meant that as soon as that had happened and the next test was a pink ball test, which I think is always going to be hard for England to win in a pink ball test because we just don't play it. And from that most,

and it felt like the tide completely changed the other way and there was no coming back. It was a great decision to send head in actually to open wasn't it? Obviously now I look at it and think well that was just to play like that yeah I mean even before the series you know I'm thinking how do we get head out you think you got to pitch it on the stumps and nipped across him or you go bounceers and and he's you know you can get him uncomfortable there but to be fair when went bounte he played it pretty well I mean he even hit a short ball from joff back over his head straight down the ground It's smashed everything.

Yeah. So like, it just seemed to be, when you bowl of players like that as well, they can create that natural carnage that then you go away from plans or you miss your line and length more because you know that you've got to be so specific. Otherwise, he hurts you. And yeah, he played phenomenally well. I think that will be one of the innings where you'd look back in Asher's series to come where you say that was a fantastic ins and that will be remembered by people,

especially in Australia. I think when Finney says it's a missed opportunity, I would agree with that as well because Cummins and Hazelwood hardly played. No, absolutely. If you'd given me for the series, they would play one out of five games, I'd be like, oh, fantastic.

Smith didn't play all the games. No, it's not. So I think the feeling is it's just like frustration and, yeah, for me being a part of it, a bit embarrassing and a bit, a bit gutting, really. Yeah. I don't have dwell on horrid things, Mark.

It was quite fractious at the end of that game and interviews and so on are always a bit tricky. But I was in an awful position because I didn't bowl well, I was injured and then you get walloped and then the next news for me is going to be breaking Mark Woods injured.

So I have to live with that again of being headline news of I'm injured, we've played poorly, they're obviously going to, the tag three ways he can't get through a game or whatever it is that I've usually hit with so I have to live that again so we're being walloped

we're getting followed everywhere and my knees hanging on by a thread like it was just it was a bad tour for me mentally bad tour what was it like in the dressing room immediately after that game when you walked off

I was lining up with Ben Stokes which was a bit awkward stunned I reckon yeah it's a silence shell shock that's here everybody was just like so in the Perth's like because it's got a

I must have a sort of AFL game the team must play there as well. It's a multi-sport stadium. So the dress rooms are quite big when you're inside there. They're like so up to date. Like you've got like spa room

and like ice baths and out the back. And then it's not like a traditional cricket dress room where it's just a small square. It's like a big sort of like square but it's like in a weird shape. Like you've got bits coming off it. So there's like little nooks around the corner where everybody is.

And I was sitting in the bottom corner nook. So Archer was in the corner, then me, then Pope and Root. We were in sort of this bottom corner. And I remember we just sat there in silence for ages. And then I looked at Joff and went, Can you believe that just happened? And he just sort of like, took a breath out and lifted these eyebrows. I think we're all just like, the game's finished?

Like it was like we didn't just have a bad session. The game was done. That was the difference. It wasn't like you walk off in a bad session. you're like, oh, that was tough. It was like, the game's done. Like, literally two hours ago, we were sat here thinking,

we're quid's in here. Like, we're doing pretty well. We're in Australia. A day has gone really well. We've bowled them out. We're ahead of the game with a bat. And then two hours there, what's sat in my seat being like,

the game is over? And I think that's just that shell shock feeling of being like, what's just happened? And then you've got like Stokes and McCullougham are trying to like, not high-five the lads, but like lift spirits being like,

just some sort of comfort or maybe a hand on the shoulder or, you know, good try or I don't know, something like that. Stokes then got to go out of media and everyone's just like, doesn't know what to do. It was almost like,

it's two days and the game's done. You're almost then, when you get back to your room that night, so you stay in a lovely hotel in Perth and you get back to your room at night and it's like, then the realization sinks in, this is the media, the outlets, it's opening,

and you're trying to block all that out as a player. How hard is that? What do you do to block it? Well, I just, I just, when my phone comes out, you just scroll straight past it. Like, I just don't want to look, and you just scroll past it.

Oh, I turn my phone off. I only go on the WhatsApp, my friends, I wouldn't then go on the media of stuff. But, like, media's flying. England's waking up to, you know, fans aren't happy, you know, family members. It's weird, because when you do well, you get a million messages.

When you don't do well, it's only, like, a couple of from your family. Are you okay? Yeah. You're like, um, all right. but it's just yeah hard very hard actually very hard how hard very lonely sorry how hard was it because that that hotel there's a load of England fans as well would congregate that how hard was it after that test match to then the next day

go down and have breakfast or have a coffee first interaction I had England final left that didn't go very well did it no and then he proceeds to tell us there I remember he went that didn't go no that didn't go to plan and he was like we've spent a lot of money coming out here we're going to have to go to such and such today they were going to um off the vineyard probably with that where's that there's like a margaret river old english town just south of perth a freemantle free mantle we're going to free mantle for the day we're going to do this and that we've spent a lot of money to come out here it's like i'm sorry yeah you feel it you feel it from the fans it's it's that's probably why you feel shame and embarrassment and it's it's and hurt because you realize that, you know, people have spent a lot of money, you realize that they're desperate for you to do well and you're representing them. So, yeah, it does hurt. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

Talk me about golf a second because that's something it was always pointed at the last. This is an easy one for me. At the last regime. So, and people have written and claimed that the players have become obsessed with playing golf. Now, is that, is that the case? Obsessed. Obsessed feel strong. I would say that they do like playing golf.

I think it's the perception of how it looks to people is the worst thing than actually probably what it was. For me, he's a player. For me, as a player, we worked hard when we trained. Train in the morning and then you got an afternoon to do something. Nets were always, we would do specific things, especially when Hot Boar was around, the fielding coach. We would do great hard fielding.

sessions, then we'd be sort of relaxed into, right, what do you need? Right, today I need a ball out in the middle. Then I want to bowl at the bat as in the nets. Then some days we would do bat as v ballers in the nets, like a usual net session. So to me, that was relatively normal under the McCullum and Stokes area. Yes, the sessions were more relaxed than say other head coaches that I've had, but not necessarily at the point where I felt like we were just drifting through the motions as an international team.

Then you add golf onto that is that sometimes when the last, the lads were the way that we were playing the game or the style that we would play then that allows that notion to come in especially when you're not winning of well should you not be trying to fix this or should you not be should you not be doing something different

but actually I felt like the the lads enjoyed golf is it a bad thing they were getting to spend loads of time together they don't just play golf they're talking about the game like if you're playing golf for me now we would talk cricket wouldn't we yes you wouldn't just Hacking around, you'd say, oh, great shot.

How well did Stark Bull there? Like, if next time he's bowling that wobble seam across the right hander, do you think maybe if he's not swinging it, should we get across? There would definitely have been conversations going on. Two, so the lads are spending time together. You're getting away from the mental pressures of the tour or at home. And also, like... What's the alternative?

I've always kind of argue if you train hard in the morning. I see both points of how it would look... The problem for me is how it probably is perceived by the... the public that's probably the bit that looks wrong to me but I didn't play golf I liked to get away and if we were staying somewhere I'd want to see where I was staying because you very often just fly into a place a hotel fly out and you don't get to see where you go so I would often grab Mark Saxby or walk see if he wasn't playing golf and we would go to a coffee shop I would find somewhere like

oh let's for example in Darmasharlow did that big walk up the mountain and so we like to do different things I didn't think obsessed but I think the lads certainly did like that golf yes yeah interesting and as a teetotal and then you know I'm not looking to get people in trouble here but were you comfortable with the sort of off-field socializing that was going it's not my that's not my that's not my out of everything you've asked us that's probably not my place to say like everybody can do it the want and I've never been a drink on my whole life so it's not as if I've just cut it out to play for England I've never done it my whole life so I can have a good time enough lads one

wanting to go out and you know have a good time I'd be there with them having a dance and having a laugh and stuff that are but you can dance without having a drink surprisingly well as well actually so like for me that's not that that's that's a management decision and if they want to let the lads have a drink and have and but you never felt as a it's like a team game and you never felt that that perhaps one or two might not have been ready to have given their best the next day nah not really it was a bigger problem for me when I first started for Durham then when I felt

for England when I played for for Durham the culture was very much like you have a curry the night before a few pints football fast then we're going to the next day and play against Yorkshire or that was the culture of the old school cricket when I first started and then it's become more professional

sins I think the word perception is the one that stands out the most there I think as an England player you're not silly you have you should have an awareness of the perception of what you're doing has on people that are watching you or spending money to go to Australia. So there are a few times where, I mean, you look at Nusa and sat brazenly like out under a canopy on the street having a beer, almost to say,

not, almost to say like we don't care what you think of us. We're just going to do, like, live our lives. how hard is it to take those beers and go into a back room where it's not possible for you to be photographed from the street doing that? It's the perception of those things. I wouldn't have done that. So if I was a drinker, I wouldn't have done that. But that doesn't mean to say that what they think is right or wrong and I'm righteous and I would have done the right thing. I just, I wouldn't have done that from what it would...

The optics of it. People would perceive me to be. It's actually having two nil down as well. So what's saying, that would be my... choice but their choice is that run and that grown men and if it's to your own detriment like if you don't play well then you get

lashed the night before and then you come out the next day and you play a terrible shot first ball and you think well maybe I shouldn't have had the NPS that's that's definitely your performance whether you're staying in the team your stats your career so that's up to you as an adult to do that so what Finney says there is absolutely right

that my choice might have been different but that's my choice and I've met loads of bad choices in my career this isn't like I would do the right thing they did the wrong thing that's their choice to talk to them and they would give you a different argument and a different so if you had someone sat here in the chair that was different for me they might give you a different you might go oh actually when you put it like that I could see why you did x y and z yeah so are you are you surprised markers what's happened over the last month or so there's all of the implosion of it I mean you know you know Ben Stokes very very

well yeah the way that he left and did you see that coming um no I From the outside, like when you're in it, it doesn't feel as bad. But then when I obviously have come out, the whole thing just looked like a mess. Like it looked chaotic to me. That's the way I would describe it. Like you had totally different, like, I was worried when Baz's interview would come out saying, would just care about Stokesy, would just want him to be okay. I was then panicking thinking, oh my God, he's not well again.

You know, so I'm messaging Ben and he's going, no, I'm fine. So I'm like, well, something's not marrying up here. either you're not fine and you're not telling us you're not fine or there's a problem on the other end and I couldn't work it out. It just looked like the problem I had at the time was that I was sick of seeing England cricket dragged through the mud when I care about England, I love England

my pride is to play for England but it just felt like we were in the headlines every week for something negative. Every week it was the coach or the captain or the drinking or the team or the golf or whatever it may be. It was like every week. That was a massive headline about the team being bad or negative.

And the only way you could change that is by everything being quiet and winning games. And then we lost. So it's like it just got like into too much of a storm. I think it got into a big thunderstorm now. I didn't feel it had to be like that. No. He just make snap decisions, Ben, doesn't it? And on the cricket field is often a real strength that he's.

able to do that I mean did that feel like a sort of a knee-jerk decision to you for him to pack a whole thing in I think he talked honestly and when you watch him on an interview he talks honestly about saying when he knew he sort of knew that was up but I think the only thing I would say is knowing Ben well is when I watch these interviews he looked worn out to me his eyes looked sunken his body language he just looked like he was unhappy he looked a bit miserable and a bit worn out that's the way I would say and he's given so much. People didn't realize

behind the scenes he does so much to try and like he might come across it to like I've said this a lot but he might come across as an alpha

or a bit prickly and stuff at times but behind the scenes like he's honestly so loyal to people wants the best for everybody tries to get the best and will formulate plans

of how can this team get better what can we do differently so he does work hard and I think just maybe off the back of Australia you know that took a lot out of him

and he was he was down after that and I just think he just looked worn out. Have you seen him since? I have. I have. I've seen him a few times and he's a joint play for Durham. I think it's been a different kind of worn out because he's been on the county belt and going here there and everywhere and starting here and but actually playing with his friends and lads he grew up with Graham Clark, Ben Ray and these sort of lads,

I think he's thoroughly enjoyed that and his performances have been good as well. Can you see him sitting on the sofa next summer watching the ashes from home on the telly? I don't know. That is the million dollar question. I would love to see him come back. I think he could probably still have a world where he's certainly going to be good enough.

It's whether he's recharged and he's got that hunger. When he retired, it was because that had left him. If that comes back, then absolutely. but Joe Roots a big mate of his as well as well yeah but

do you want to push push Ben because that would be the type of life that would go on the other way like if you if you constantly bombard him I think he'd go on the other way

and go no that's it like I think yeah better off just let him make his own mind up who did Ben's text Moen Ali who said Ash's question mark

so he's done it himself yeah I think his challenge and his realisation of not playing for England will come in December when the guys go to South Africa

to play that series because I think when you're playing county cricket England cricket is happening simultaneously but you're distracted, you're concentrating, you're practising, there's something occupying your mind whilst England are playing. It's actually the first time that you sit down

when you're not in an England dressing room anymore and you've got nothing else to do in December we might be playing franchise cricket somewhere and you see England walking out on the telly on an overseas tour. That's the one moment where he might sit there and go, I think I want to do that again. And that might be a marker as to whether we see him in the ashes next year,

how he feels in December when he watches England playing in South Africa. I also think that if you asked every member of the playing group, the love playing with Stokesy. He's a great guy to having your team. And again, the public perception of what's happened in Australia, everything still feels quite raw then you retire so that rawness might you know people might at this moment in time might think of Stokesy is like slightly negatively but if you asked every player in that dress room they'll want him in the team not just for the fact that he can have match winning moments but the fact that he's a he's a great teammate and someone that everybody loves to play alongside yeah you talked about how he looked in those interviews I can't remember were you in Grenada when The team lost and Joe Root, that was the end of Joe. I,

you weren't playing, I don't think. I'd gone home by then. We've been injured again. Oh, well, sorry to bring that up. But the point I'm only making is that I interviewed Joe Root that day. Yeah. And he was like that. It was just like a ghost, really.

Yeah. And he is again now. He's four years on, very energized and very up for the job. So actually, you can, you can, you can come from it. And I think that's why it's so good for Rudy to be captain is the fact that this is a, completely different team and time. I mentioned before

you had the big characters of Broad, Anderson, Stokes, Barestor in his last team he almost had guys who knew their own game that could deliver

when needed. Now he has a chance to shape a team and be like he's literally the last man main man left of that era and he can help

bring these other lads through and implement himself on that team whereas before you know he was captain and but he had these great players to manage and it was just

I think it'll just be different for him this time yeah and very different to Ben Stokes in terms of the dressing room what do you? Yeah he's just that great mate Stokes in Rudy but they're different characters at different people and I think it was Spoons at the time

Chris Silverwood Rudy did a lot of the work and I feel like with Stephen Fleming coming in I think Flemm will do a lot of that work that Rudy had to do last time and let Rudy just be sort of captain on the field and not in hortel rooms making decisions with because him and Spoons did a lot of work together right in terms of selections and and I think that's probably ultimately what wore rooty down was that COVID selections lots of it was a tough time it was a tough time whereas I think when phleg comes in flam will do a lot of that and Rudy can just focus on being the captain in the middle well that that ashes tour we both covered that ashes to what, Rudy's last one is captain. And even us as broadcasters, not being able to travel into certain states. When you were in a state, you had to be locked in your room.

If you want to go out for a walk or a coffee, you have to show a COVID pass to get into places. I think it's easy for us to forget just how challenging those times were. And I think that was 10 times more for those guys inside the bio bubbles of wanting to keep cricket Australia afloat, basically. making sure the series happens. I mean, me and Henry got COVID in Adelaide. And we were made to feel like we were almost on the cusp of shutting the entire series down. Closing the door. I mean, we could have done with it.

By the way, in the solution. Closing the doors of the on-fric of Australia. We weren't allowed in. We weren't allowed in. Well, we didn't have COVID. We weren't allowed in the grid. No. So I think it's easy to forget that.

This is going to feel like an absolute breath of fresh air to Joe. to be in this situation with a brand new fresh start without all of that rubbish that he had to deal with towards the end of his captaincy. So the more I've thought about it, when he was first announced as captain, I was kind of like, I remember how tired he looked in Grenada.

I was watching on the TV, but you're there thinking, God, he's like a ghost. He doesn't look like Joe Root to me. But the more I've thought about it, I didn't want him to get to that place as a captain again, but I don't think it's possible for him to get to that. place as a captain again because this is going to be a short, sharp burst. It feels as a captain

doesn't it? Yeah. 18 months, two years, absolute max, it feels. And it's a chance for him to rewrite his captaincy legacy, which I think he'll be enthused by him. So do you know Stephen Fleming well, would he? Have you come across him? Yeah, I played under Flemer Chennai Super Kings in the IBL. I had one season with them there. He picked me for the first game. I had none for 43 and then never played a game. So he's a big fan. He's a very good judge, is what you're saying. So I don't know if that was because I got whacked or because he'd see me injury record

and thought I kind of played back-and-back games. Right, but I mean, I've really dealt with him when he was captive of New Zealand and so on. Actually, we came across in quite a lot. But you've seen a very sort of calm, thoughtful, measured fellow, you know, quite, say, a contrast to what there has been, which has been much more exciting and passionate and full on and all in

and all that sort of stuff. My thing would be if Baz is on that end of the scale where it's like relaxed, not much, a small group, not much analysis, that kind of thing from a team point of view to Andy Flower on the other end who was, not now, but in his previous England regime, like very data-driven, all about, like, run. race stats very specific in his coaching big coaching set up I'd say

Flemm's probably more on the bad side but more in the middle so you haven't swung back the other way but you've come a little bit more towards the middle style of more all-rounded style of coaching. Yeah. Because it's very easy to kind of just dwell on the last couple of years of the last regime isn't it but the first the first 18 months were exhilarate. Amazing yeah and amazing to be a part of I think as a player you know to win in Pakistan we won three which was an amazing result. Unprecedented.

Yeah, and other great results in New Zealand series, India, other things. So we had great wins and series and test wins in specific places. So there was a lot of like about that. And as a player, you felt 10 feet tall. It was great to be in that team. It was exciting. Things were relatively simple. But yeah, it just faded away, I guess, at the end where it was hard to claw back.

but at that initial period, it was honestly amazing. How did it help you as an attacking fast bowler to play in that? Because I looked at those first two years as someone who conceded runs but took wickets when I played for England. I kind of looked at it and thought, that just looks so liberating for a fast bowler to be able to, like just not just all out attack because there's more nuance to the game, even for attacking fast bowlers. You're not just wanging it down there every ball, wanting to take a wicket every ball.

But it looked to me like the bowlers, especially the guys who could bowl quick, were just completely free. Is that what it felt like? Yeah, you would have loved it because there wasn't the same amount of consequence on it. So, like, you didn't feel like you were just going to be thrown out the team or if you had a bad day. And ultimately, he took the pressure off you because it wasn't about how many runs you went for.

And that's a big, obviously, a big part of the game. But it was, like, how many chances can you create? What momentum can you give with what style can you help for the guy at the other end? So a lot of the time, although I sometimes I didn't really like it, was I would bowl with Bash a lot. So Bash would rattle through his overs, which meant I was knackered. But we would compliment each other, and that was a style of play. We don't care how many runs you go for, Woody, be aggressive,

make something happen at that end, and then we've got Bash at the other end to try and, you know, they'll attack him and that'll give him a chance. Woody, when you come on with walks, walks, you're going to do this. Woody, I don't care why you bowl it, have this, kind of feel this is how you've got to try a yoga in the middle of a thing if you've got to try a you literally had more freedom and scope to try things without the same consequences or well if that goes wrong and that spell you've gone at seven eight and over yeah but you create one chance do you think that was also the case with the batting in another one it certainly held my batting but do you've got to back off back oh absolutely I'll back off against 90 mile another bone but we used to say things to me like oh try and get the crowd going or I'd walk out and you can see if you can hit a six today And he was very clever on that he would do that because that would have one appeal to me, but two, if the crowd could get up and going and I was the last man out, then when we come to ball, there's a better feeling around the group.

Yeah, sure. So what about front line bats when? Do you think there was enough consequence or accountability for poor shots? Depends what type of period you're seeing? Because would you said that at the start when Johnny Bester was going wild? No, because he was, but he was going wild, scoring runs. I'm thinking more of maybe ashes and some of the...

I'm just thinking like the difference is is that the lads... So when the first started, BEST or Stokes, Root, these were lads who had played a lot of cricket, a lot of one-day cricket.

Johnny was arguably at one stage, the best ODI batter in the world at one point. So he knew how to take people on and the right times to take people on and which ball has to target. So then I guess as the team developed and then you had changes in personnel,

you know, these lads maybe hadn't played that style first coming in and maybe that's where at times it was hard but I guess what I'm saying is do you think there'll be less pressure on some of the batsmen now to play? It's hard for me right because one of my favourite players in the team

was Crawley. I loved playing with Zach like loved it. He was an amazing player to play with honestly as a teammate class and people can say negative stuff all he only average this and any average that but his average was never brought into it in the dressing room never ever it was never taught about. It was always about

tech them on at the start, put them under pressure. We've got root, brook, Stokes in the hatch in the middle order. If their bowlers are going to 4-5-nove under pressure and then they come in, they're going to be under more pressure. So, Zach was like, he would whack fast bowling as well.

Like, you didn't score 180 against Australia if you kind of play. You didn't get 200 against Pakistan if you kind of play. That in the end of... I opinion he was extraordinary. So, like... It's hard for me to talk about because, again, the public perception will be,

well, how did Zach play 60 tests if you average 32? But for me, playing the side, I loved playing with Zach. I was like, I wanted to watch him and tech people on. You had the guy that was 6 foot 6 and a guy that was 5 foot or 4 foot 3. And it was meant to watch them both bat. Left hand, right hand is everything. I actually loved it. And as a media, you guys could, and rightly so fulfilled,

criticise and be critical of that but I never felt that as a player in the group I never felt that honestly it was never taught about in the group so if I'm appointing you then because Steve Fleming's not around yet so you're the coach the next couple of games Woody and you've got

Joe Root now as captain and you've got with this this set of players what's your blend going to be I'd get the public button saying block the bum off it we don't want that You don't want that.

What would you, what would you, what, you've got a couple of dials there. I don't know, I think, I think. How are you going to blend it? What has been and what, see, I was, I wasn't a Maverick player. I was trying to, someone that would work hard. I wasn't the most talented player. I was, if anything, I was pretty average baller, but I'd try my very best every time I played. And, you know, charging every time whether it was,

whether it was green, whether it was bouncy, so I'd want my team to be, if I wanted them to be someone or how I view the game, my value would be never ever giving, you know, be not sensible, but let's be,

play with common sense at times and hold values that are true to the country that will play for. Yeah, but in terms of the positivity that was so good about those first couple of years, kind of how it finished, Why can't you have an all round? Why can't it be both? Well that's what I'm saying to you. So what's your blend? What's your ideal blend of how you think these next couple of years?

Put me under pressure here. I guess I haven't even got me level three yet. Still in the midst of it. Well, I talk about mentality. Yeah. How you approach it? Because you don't want it to go back to blocking the... No, no, no, no. I think Rudy's a great example of that. Someone that's... You know, you could tell how proud he is to play for England and you want the perception of the... of the... England fans to be proud in their team.

Rudy's a proud player and every time he wears the top of these, he's got his pads on and you can tell that he gives he's all, not the most athletic bloke at times, but he runs hard between the wickets every time. He concentrates for long periods of time.

He carried the team when he shawl has in Sri Lanka when he got like 200 when it was red hot. So I think he want a team to be a mould of that captain really, and the values that he holds strong are different, or slightly different, maybe similar in some ways, slightly different in other ways to how Stokesy's team was moulded. So I think going forward, you want to be a mould of the best things that Joe Root brings.

I think you've earned the right, don't you, in the game, to have your fun. And I think the argument against the team that played in the last two years is that at times they try to have their fun too soon in games or in situations where it would then spiral out of control, and then the game would be beyond them. So yesterday for me was actually a really good example. There was discipline with the ball, which we lacked in Australia and cost us at the beginning of games where they got absolute flyers.

And then you're chasing it from there. Robinson just bowled consistently hit a line and length and set the tone, which I thought was excellent yesterday. But with the bat, Roots and Cox in particular to get through to the close when it was a bit cloudy. I know they were on top and the change bowlers weren't brilliant. yesterday for Pakistan. But it would have been easy

to just toss it away in that situation and Nick one, then you're putting Brooke under pressure who's coming in next and then things can spiral from there. To see Cox, who is a naturally attacking player,

leaving anything that was outside off stump at the end last night, you're kind of looking at it thinking he's earning his right here that if we do get played today and if we go through the day and they're 250 for two,

if he gets out playing a scoop or a revert, I don't care because he's earning earned his right to get to that point where he can play like that. And I think it's just knowing the right time to differentiate between the two of them is the important way for this team to evolve. And I thought yesterday was good science. So it's positive, but with more flexibility perhaps. Yeah, but I'd also flip that as well though.

So let's, you're all, as media, as players, as fans, you'll always go through the waves, won't you? Waves are, right, we're not playing very well. So everything's doom and gloom, all of a sudden you come up on the wave, everybody's the best thing since sliced bread. Robo's pulled fantastic here, yes. It's been a bit misly. It's been great.

We're at the end of August, nearly September, the ball nips around. He's perfect, perfect for them conditions. And rightly so, he should be loaded for the way he bowls because he bowled fantastically well. The challenge for Robbo is in India, in Pakistan, in Australia, away when it's hot under five days. So you have to ride that storm.

All of a sudden, if Robo went to Australia, and he didn't perform well, everybody would say we need faster bowlers. So you have to ride it and have common sense in the middle ground with everything. In Australia the memo was we're going to pick faster bowlers because on previous

England to us, we've picked lads that don't bowlers, more control ballers that don't bowl as quick and it hasn't gone well for it. We're going to copy the Australia blueprint of 85 milan hour plus. The difference is they've played them conditions for ages and were more accurate and ball better than we did. But you can see

why the blueprint was like that so you have to use common sense of course is for courses with like it has to be it has to be here like finney says earn the right everything has to be blanketed if you get too up high with everybody is amazing and then it doesn't go right you then hit rock bottom if rock bottom isn't going well and then someone comes in and does well you then skyrocketed it up you want that level to be a little bit more sort of um lake windermier just drifting and bobbing rather than the north sea of crashing waves up and down so you have to i totally understand why people did things we were but from fans or me looking on the outside you can quickly shift from well why wasn't robber in the ashes yeah of course when it's

like that this horses of course is why isn't such why didn't the bat has played that way and why doesn't so if things go well then it's like well this is an amazing style of player if things go badly then then all of a sudden it's why we're doing that. So it's somewhere probably in the middle. And it gets confused, does it not, when you have a tour of India or of Bangladesh or somewhere like that before you go to somewhere where actually need, well, the quickest style of bowling

because that type of, the quick bowler is not suited for there. They go to Bangladesh before this one-off test in Australia, actually. So you're picking an entirely different team. You have to be realistic, don't you? You have to be realistic. Like, if it's main finny going, if we're both fastballers and I don't bowl well, There isn't this that, well, he shouldn't have picked fastballers.

It's just that I didn't bowl well and should have, it should have bowed better. He could go and ball absolutely brilliantly and then no one is saying, well, he shouldn't have picked Stephen Finn as a fast bowler. So in the ashes, did we look back and think that we bowled amazingly well? At times we didn't.

But that first thing's at Perth, we played four fast bowlers and bowled fantastically well. Yep, yeah. So you've got to marry it up with both arguments, I feel. Yeah. That's hurt that test, isn't it? Yeah, I kind of let it go on. I brought it up.

I could see. Well, yeah, but you've been very honest, Woody. It's been a really interesting chat about all of that. I will not be, we'll mention about the headlines at the end of dear one of Perth. I'm just looking at Adam here. I'll be telling me phone off for at least 36 hours now. I mean, all the headlines that I've just spouted off there. Lovely, but it's just chatting away like three old mates, which is great. And thanks. Good to have your company today.

And you two, fanny. So much sport today And all the goals As they go in Up and down the league This is Five Live Sports It's all right to the lights And fit in the floor

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