Test Match Special - McCullum sacked as Test coach

Episode Date: July 12, 2026

Eleanor Oldroyd is alongside Jonathan Agnew, Steven Finn, and Stephan Shemilt for reaction to Brendon McCullum losing his job as England Men's red-ball head coach. They discuss how we got here, and who could take over?Plus, Alison Mitchell speaks to ECB Chief Executive Richard Gould.

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Or is he just the king of the attention economy? Find out on good bad billionaire. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. It's been announced by the ECB that Brendan McCullum has been sacked as England's test coach after four years in charge, but he will remain in charge of the white ball teams. The England and Wales cricket board have released a statement in the last few minutes saying he will stand. down, but in his statement, McCullum says, of course I'm gutted not to be continuing, but I respect

the decision. I'm joined now by the BBC's chief cricket commentator, Jonathan Agnew, our cricket correspondent. Stefan Shermelt and former England fast bowler, Stephen Finn, will join me here at Lords in just a couple of minutes. Agers, Steph, here we are. Two weeks on from Ben Stokes, stepping down in the middle of another test match. And we have the second half of that management team, Stokes and McCallum, who's announced that he is stepping down. Stefan, first of all, just give us a bit more detail of what the ECB statement says. Yeah, Ellie, like you said, it's another Sunday, isn't it? Another staggering twist in the unraveling of the England team.

Stokes made that stunning announcement to step down as captain, and now McCollum's exit, well, it brings a definitive end to the Bas-Bour era. And that quote that you mentioned from the statement that the ECB have released, what Brendan McCollum said, Of course I'm gutted not to be continuing, but I respect the decision. So let's be in no doubt here. Brenda McCollum has been sacked as England's test coach. The director of cricket, Rob Key, he's going to remain in his position.

This decision has come around after a couple of weeks of the ECB hierarchy, reflecting on the situation surrounding the men's team. Of course, we've had on-field results. England have lost seven of their past nine test matches. and a string of off-field problems as well. And so now we are in a situation where the England men's test team has no head coach and no captain. They will need both of those by the time the next series against Pakistan begins on the 19th of August. Well, Jonathan, what did you think when you heard the news for the first time?

Yeah, I mean, not really surprised. I mean, all this began with a bang and it's ended with a bang. I mean, it really has. and it's you know you read you read the ECB stuff and you wonder why they've sacked him I mean there's extraordinary things they've said here he leaves the test team well set and poised to achieve great things so why they sacked him they sacked him because a lot of ill discipline as we know the ashes an awful lot was said about that about on and off the field and I think off the field is just as important here

the lack of discipline that there has been and that is I suspect has been Richard Gould's primary concern here because he looks at the cricketing landscape at the moment, particularly of the men's team. And it's like it's been napalmed, you know, the actual image of the image of the men's game is very, very poor. Make no bones about that. And so they have to be seen to be gaining discipline, I think, and taking more control of the English game.

I think what this does do is this probably hardens up the odds on Brooke becoming the next captain. I just don't see how Brooke and McCullum could have worked together really. Too much of a likeness. Again, that lack of discipline. And bear in mind, Harry Brooke clearly is at the center of a number of those problems. He does seem to be playing with more maturity and playing very successfully, albeit in T20 cricket at the moment. This is a massive step up.

And I do struggle to have seen the situation in which McCullum and Brooke could have been in charge of the men's test team at the moment going forward. I just don't see that. So who will come in? No idea at all, but I don't think it'll be somebody as, well, as loose, if you like. I mean, you know, that was very positive at the start of all this. I think it's important to remember that when McCullum and Stokes did take over, English cricket was a real mess.

It was in a real mess. And they did revolutionise it. And they won, what, 10 of the first 11 test matches they played together? And in wonderful, unforgettable ways, too. but their problem was that they didn't check it. It was unsustainable in the end. Let's bring Stephen Finn in on this. I mean, what are your emotions here, Finney?

Because as Jonathan says, it's been a hell of a ride, hasn't it, really? Or certainly the early part of those four years were? Well, those sound like words that Brendan McCullen would use, wouldn't he? A hell of a ride. It's kind of the way he played his cricket and seems to have coached it as well. And like Hagar says, though, when he came into the job, they'd won one test in 17. and the feeling around test cricket was pretty low, to be honest. And I think that in those first couple of years,

they achieved some really commendable amazing things. They made people believe again, but then they just failed to temper what they were doing slightly in order to them win those big series. And I think what has ended up counting against Brendan McCullum in his tenure as coach and with what they achieved in the first couple of years, is the inability to beat India and Australia, both home and away.

And that's why I think his contract was due to run until the end of next summer. And that's now been brought forward to now, July 2026. So it's a shame because you did see in those first couple of years what the team was capable of. But it did feel like something was going to give, especially after the way that New Zealand series finished. I mean, he is staying on as a whiteball coach, as we've said, England now number one in the 20 rankings after the series victory over India over the last few days. But let's hear what Brendan McCullum had to say after the series defeat to New Zealand.

Just a couple of weeks ago, Agas asked him whether he wanted to continue as test coach. Yeah, of course I do. My commitment to English cricket has never wavered. I firmly believe in the direction that we can get this team to take. And this is a disappointing result because we would love to have been able to get the right result in this series and show some of the improvements that we'd, We tried to implement from Australia. I thought Lords was an excellent example of that.

The second test match was clearly difficult. And in this test match, we had our chances whilst not being able to get across the line. But I'm excited about the level of talent which sits within English cricket. I'm very confident in the direction that we need to go and what changes are needed to be made and how we keep improving.

And with that, you know, the enthusiasm for the job, it doesn't waver. This is going to be a reset, wasn't it? This series. You know, try and put things right and on track again. You've lost the series. There's been off the field stuff. Do you think you have reset and gone forward?

You've lost the captain, most influential player. Where do you think English cricket stands now as opposed to the first day of this series? I think we've got to admit that we made some mistakes throughout the series and ultimately didn't get what we came for, which was to a series win. You know, there's been a bit going on off the field. There's been lots where we've had lots of things we've had to deal.

with off the field and you know some of those things can be can be quite big distractions and one thing I was proud of is that the guys were actually able to still galvanise as a unit and stay close as a unit and I thought that would give us our best opportunity in the series we weren't quite able to get there but there is some good stuff and you know I still believe that we have a firm direction of what we're wanting to do and how we're wanting to play and and what we're wanting to achieve and and just because you haven't won doesn't necessarily mean that those things are wrong. I think we will continue to look to improve, we'll continue

to look to evolve, continue to whilst having our identity keep progressing and improving and ultimately become a better cricket team and I'm excited about what what that looks like and as I say, my affection and enthusiasm for the job hasn't wavered

and I'm excited about what the future holds. Well that was Brenda McCullum speaking to Jonathan Agnew after the test series defeat in New Zealand a couple of weeks ago. I mean, I guess it's interesting to hear that, isn't it? Because you kind of have a picture of how this summer has unfolded so far for the England men's test team. I mean, I'm sitting here at Lords. That first test match won in two and a bit days. And you thought, okay, well, maybe it's all going to be fine. Maybe this can carry on and sail off into the sunset towards the ashes next summer. But now, thinking about it, should they have, before this summer even started, have said, right, we're going to have a complete reset now. And a reset means a total change of personnel. Well, I think they hoped they weren't going to have to do that. They wanted Ben Stokes to stay.

Let's be honest, he's the most influential member of that team. I think the two vulnerable men have always been McCullough and Rob Key, who's the managing director, who once again emerges from this with his job intact, despite signing off the Ashes Tour and so on. I mean, I think he really must have been under the spotlight. so I mean maybe he's still in credit for having appointed Stokes and McCullum quite radical appointments in the in the first place but no they needed I think they needed to see that there was going to be a change

Lords was a strange game it was a poor pitch New Zealand had had very little cricket then as we know there was the drinking episode after that so all the debitants coming in for the Oval where England lost and then of course all the shenanigans a couple of weeks ago at Trent Bridge, it has not been the reset that English cricket needed. And I think they generously gave everybody a chance. I think that Richard Gould, the chief executive, he tried to show faith in what he had,

in the structure that he had, and it didn't work. Steph, do you think that Rob Key's position is secure now, or could we see more changes? I do think Rob Key's position is secure, but that is not what I've thought for the past couple of weeks. So what we've been hearing from the very top of the ECB ever since England lost that series against New Zealand is that they've been reflecting on the situation

around the England men's team. And to me, it felt like strangely McCullum was perhaps in a more secure position. And I suppose it goes back really to that period after the ashes when the ECB had a chance to make, a change. And as Agas just mentioned, it seemed at that point that Stokes was the man who was more secure in his position as captain purely because he's Ben Stokes and he's so hard to replace. England, and I find that out in the coming months and years. But England didn't make a change.

They backed Key and McCollum thinking that they could turn things around. And as you said, at Lourdes, we thought they had. Then it all unraveled because all starting with that incident in the nightclub involving Stokes and Gus Atkinson and that seemed to be pretty much on Key's watch there was a bit of confusion over the curfew how that was communicated what the players thought they should be doing when and where and that is the responsible responsibility of the director of cricket so when england lost against new zealand and that is their first home test series defeat in a series of three matches or more since 2012 England just don't lose home series like that very often.

It felt like Key was the most vulnerable. Instead, it feels like that maybe Key has made the decision to remove McCollum and that is helping him stay in his job. And I do wonder, you know, how has that conversation gone down? Brendan, we don't want you to be test coach, but do you fancy staying on with the whiteball team? Was this inevitable, Phenny? Do you think that he would go when Stokes had gone or could he have carried on with

potentially Harry Brooke as the test captain or? did one inevitably follow the other? I think had there been someone other than Harry Brooks, so Harry Brooke feels like the next England captain across all formats now, I think he's really captained him well and the way that he's led the team in this T20 World Cup, sorry, in the T20 World Cup and in this India series that they've just been playing

to number one in the world. Their team is now number one in the world in T20 cricket. and he's captained smartly and has won almost I think 90% of the games that he's captained and he's captained 30 games in the T20 format so yeah I think that without other options having McCollum and Brooke together didn't feel like the next step forward for the test team and as it happens without the lack of other options Brendan McCollum is the one who's who's ended up having to make way there which yeah it has been a weird few weeks It's been such a weird few weeks. And you know, one of the things that I've enjoyed so much in the last couple of weeks is focusing on the women's T20 World Cup, you know, the final here at Lords, this test match that we're watching here at Lords. And we're watching Steph on today and tomorrow the last two days of two of the greatest players to play the women's game, Heather Knight, Tammy Beaumont, completely overshadowed now by this. And I mean, this is annoying me quite a lot. I've got to say, Steph, but, but, you know, what is it about the?

timing of these announcements. Yeah, and there's putting Ben Stokes's retirement to one side for a second. It was the fallout of what happened in the nightclub when that curfew was broken that really angered the people at the very top of the ECB because that came, the fallout of that came at the start of the women's T20 World Cup. And then all of the attention was on the men's team. What would happen with Ben Stokes and Gus Atkinson, particularly, you know, Stokes not playing in the second test against New Zealand, then coming back for the third test, and then retiring. And you're right, there is huge, significant, historic goings on in the women's game at the

moment that the ECB would have wanting to be celebrating. And particularly in the case of Heather Knight and Tammy Beaumont, they've got a wonderful moment coming over the next couple of days. So I do think that the timing of this announcement is slightly strange. It's also in between Whiteball series. One only finished yesterday against India. England player one day at Edgebaston on Tuesday with McCollum in charge. But it's just one of those things that as soon as McCollum knew

that he was no longer going to be the test coach, it would have leaked out. They just would not have been able to control that coming out to the media and to the rest of us. But you're right, in what should have been a really significant period for the England women's team, news from the men has completely overshadowed. Shout out them.

We've seen quite a lot of the big beasts, as it were, of the press pack who are turning up this afternoon at Lords, having not been here for the first few days of this women's test match. I mean, Jonathan, for this team at the moment, this test team, I mean, it's just all a bit of a shambles, isn't it really? No captain, no coach. What have we got now about another month or so until the series starts against Pakistan? There's a lot of sorting out to do. Well, I'll be very interested to see who they appointers coach. I mean, at the moment, all the really top ones seem to be very comfortably positioned with just the nice pickings of franchise cricket that pays them well and means that they're not away from home for months. And I don't think there's the scrutiny either that the England coach has.

I mean, he really is under the spotlight, like the England captain. And that's where I still very much have my reservations about Harry Brooke more temperamentally. because the England cricket captain has to be a statesman and that's not sounding pompous, they're old-fashioned, but it just happens to be a fact that the English cricket captain has to deal with more things that just changing the bowling. You know, we go to places that can be quite volatile

and you do have to command a bit of a presence and I'm not convinced about Brooke in that regard at the moment, but he can convince me and I hope that he does. But as far as the rest of it, well, you know, you're playing for England, you get on a new player, And I think looking back, and we've sort of touched on this already, but looking back at these last four years, the disappointment for me has been the complacency,

the arrogance, the determination, stubbornness, not to listen to people saying, come on, you can't carry on playing like this, and to listen to nonsense like, oh, I didn't mind being caught on the boundary on 98 at Lourdes in an Ashes test match, or the nonsense like, they could score as many as they like. we'll chase them down. I'm not having a bend ducke it necessarily but I mean there's a lot of nonsense spoken you think come on if that really is the mantra in the England dressing room this is

going to this is going to blow up listen to some common sense listen to people who you know are just not being negative they're just trying to in fact be positive and say this is a lot of what you're doing is really good but it's unsustainable like this you cannot play one dimensional test cricket in which you just attack attack attack we don't play for draws as another one, wasn't it? You think, what? It has to be more mature than that. It has been more professional than that. And it had its opportunity to do that. I think winning 3-0 in Pakistan was incredible. No one has ever gone there and done that. That for me is probably Basbal's biggest moment to go there and to do that. But that was the point in which I said,

right, how are we now going to work out where we are and how we're going to actually make us more sustainable? who's your money on, Finney? Would Andy Flower be, I mean, he seems to be the name I've heard most mentioned. And I think Michael Vaughn was talking about this at Trent Bridge as well. And say, if you've got a combination of Harry Brook, because there isn't really anyone else to choose as the test captain, arguably at the moment. Is Andy Flower the right man? I mean, he's a very different style of coach from Brendan McCullum. Or certainly he was, wasn't he, in the early, kind of around the time that you were playing? He is, but I think you do need that difference in opinions and the ability to have a debate and disagree,

but then come out of it both on the same page moving forward. And I think by the sounds of it, I've not been coached by Andy Flauerre since he was England coach, but he's softened just slightly from the person that he was then to the one he is now, and clearly going around playing franchise cricket or coaching in franchise cricket, would do that to you. But I agree with Aggers. I think you would need a very fat and empty checkbook to be able to go to Andy Flower and say, write a number down and tell us how much it's going to take because the scrutiny

is just that level on top of what you experience, I think, in franchise cricket. So Andy Flower, I would imagine would be the top target, but I think it's highly unlikely that he takes the job and starting a new franchise in the London spirit here and all of that it takes to build that up. I'd be surprised. Jonathan Trott is someone that I think to keep an eye on because he is shaped and formed in the mould of Andy Flower, both as a player and in the way that he's coached. He's had to deal with quite a volatile situation by coaching Afghanistan for the last four or five years. And I think that that would grow you up as a coach quite quickly to be able to be dealing with everything politically and funding wise from that perspective to still go out and compete in World Cups as Afghanistan have done.

so I think reflects well on him. So he's someone that is coaching, I think, down at Glamorgan as a batting coach at the moment, but with head coach in international cricket experience, an excellent test player and more of the flower mould. So he's someone that I think I keep an eye on. Steph, any rumours that are hitting your inbox at the moment? Just before we go into that, can we just get Finney's opinion? I just wonder if it's sending a shiver down his spine,

just thinking about Andy Flower coming back to English cricket with the way that he used to rule the dress. in room with an iron fist how you feeling about that finney well he's not coaching me unless he's coming in to coach me as uh on tms i don't know we could ask um but we could ask yeah he'd instill some discipline in me um and andy flower will be the name on everyone's on's lips and finney's right in terms of whether or not he can be lured back from the franchise world what i think is interesting is the split in the jobs once more because by the time andy flower finished his spell as england coach he was only the test coach then as well.

So it wouldn't be taking the entire three-format job. Maybe that's enough to lure him back. Richard Dawson is someone that's been touted for an international job. He's the Glamorgan head coach. He's done a really good job there. Gareth Batty has won the county championship numerous times with Surrey. Ryan Campbell, he's an Australian, but he's up at Durham. He has coached all around the world.

He's a very impressive guy. He's been impressive up there. at Durham. Andrew Flintoff, we haven't mentioned him yet, have we? He's the England Lions head coach, but he has said before that he doesn't want to be

the coach of the senior team. And I'm just going to throw a delicious name out there who is also working in English cricket at the moment. Darren Lehman, the former Australia coach, is the North Hans head coach. I wonder if he'd fancy a crack of being England head coach

and taking on the Aussies. Well, Justin Lang is also a name that I've heard mentioned in and around and spoke passionately throughout the ashes, didn't he, about what he felt. England could do a lot better, has experience with Australia, clearly, in all formats of the game,

so another name to keep an eye on. Whoever it is will be different. It will be different. But it has to be different, doesn't it? And is it right to try and make it completely different? I mean, with the group of players that you've got who've grown up under Basball, because I think that's also worth remembering

that Basball started with a team of players who had been around the team such a long time, you know, Broad, Anderson, Berstow, the like, have all retired in the meantime. Joe, really the only survivor of that pre-Basball era now. Do you think that it needs to completely reset to where we were at the end of the Ashton 21-22? No, no one's that. The players who are likely to be picked in the forthcoming series against Pakistan,

yes, they have had a taste of McCullum and they need to keep that positivity. You know, they need to keep a lot of it was really good. A lot of it was really very good indeed. And that's got to keep going in the right direction. Where it failed was the lack of accountability, the lack of discipline on and off the field, and the lack of the check to say, no, hang on the minute, this is getting out of hand. And we do need to fight for draws because actually hard fought earned draws in cricket are good. And we need to, there needs to be that check.

But I hope that going forward those same players will keep much of the positivity that they've had. Do you think there is any question, Steph, about the fact that we're now in this situation, where you know you could have that overlap. So McCullum coaching the whiteball team, you know, going into an ODI series which starts on Tuesday at Edgebuston. You've got a ODI World Cup at the end of next year as well.

But you've got players playing across all formats, so Harry Brooke potentially as England captain in the Red Ball team, also playing in the Whiteball team. Are you going to, is there a danger that you're going to get mixed messages and everyone's going to get incredibly confused? And you don't know who to listen to.

I think it's a really good question because it's a really difficult problem to solve in that it's so hard for one person, one head coach to be across all three formats. But when England have tried it, it hasn't worked. One of the formats has suffered. And one of the reasons really that Brendan McCullum ended up taking on the white ball job when Matthew Mott was sacked two years ago is that McCollum was. such a huge presence in English cricket by that point, and the test team were doing pretty well, that it just felt like anyone else who'd come into it to be the white ball coach would have just been in McCullum's shadow.

And so whoever's going to be the test coach has got to be able to work alongside Brendan McCollum to not be concerned by the size of his personality or to not be affected by what McCullum calls an informal style that he employs. And so, yeah, maybe the mixed messaging is a good point in terms of if we're going to have a whiteball coach who is informal. And then there are a lot of players who are coming back to work for a test coach who is going to be different to McCullum. It's a really good point.

And the other point that you made, Ellie, which is spot on, is that when McCollum came in, he liberated a group of cricketers that had been losing a lot. They'd been beaten down by COVID. and they just needed freeing up. Johnny Berstow, Chris Wokes, Mark Wood, Jimmy Anderson, Stuart Broad, the list goes on. Now when McCullum has regenerated a team with some younger players

who've been needed to be taught, really, how to play test cricket, he hasn't been able to do that. It's no coincidence that now a white ball team that is full of quite experienced players, Joss Butler, Liam Dawson, Jopher, again, just full of those cricketers that have been around a long time,

he is freeing those guys up and they are having good results. Now, England need to find someone to nurture this young team and shape them for the rigours and demands and constantly changing challenges of test cricket. I tell you what, thank you all so much for coming on and talking about this. Finney is here with me at Lords. Steph, I think you were in the swimming pool with the kids when the call came through.

Just loading them into the car, ready to take them to the swimming pool. So they had to be dragged out of the car. At the moment, Ellie, as you know, my other half is editing this show. So I've had to call her mum in to look after the kids. Tomorrow, it's down to Edgebaston because the first one dayer starts on Tuesday.

One poor victim, England player, is going to be put up to speak to us tomorrow. And they're going to be getting asked a lot of questions about Brendan McCullough. Maybe it will Baz himself, who knows? And Jonathan, what were you supposed to be doing with your Sunday afternoon? It was going to be a well

It's still going to be a big moment The gleaming pizza oven Was going to be used And it's still going to be used For the first time I had a go at trying to sort that dough out this morning I sent a photograph to Emma My wife and she said, what is that?

And I said, I don't know So how on earth you get that dough From being like a blob It's something that looks beautifully circular I don't know But I can guarantee it won't look like that In about two hours' time Ellie, I'll just jump in here as well

because me and Agers have been speaking quite a lot recently about what might happen in English cricket and all the things that are going on and the other day I phoned him up. I can't remember what I said I was doing, but Agers told me that he was about to build his garden furniture and he was a bit worried about putting it all together. I think someone had forgotten the umbrella and everything.

And I got a picture at the end of the day at the sofa beautifully built, the umbrella over it and are very pleased Agers. The trouble is, as there's always of these things, there were two bolts left over. I still don't know. I still don't know whether they're supposed to have gone. I thought this was going to be some analogy

about the state of the England men's cricket team, but maybe it still is. A couple of bolts missing still. Exactly, that's it. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. How did a boycott Jimmy become a billionaire from posting videos? On good, bad billionaire.

We're going to find out how the world's most popular YouTuber, Mr Beast made his fortune. He's buried himself in a coffin for days. Counted to 100,000 on camera. And even recreated squid games, all in an attempt to go viral on the internet. But it all started when he gave a homeless man $10,000. So is he a philanthropist reshaping capitalism?

Or is he just the king of the attention economy? Find out on good bad billionaire. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Well, now let's hear from the ECB chief executive Richard Gould. he's been speaking to Alison Mitchell. Well, let's talk about Brenda McCallum. He's no longer the men's test head coach. Whose decision has that been?

Yeah, that's a decision that gets pushed through myself and with Rob Key. And we also have a performance committee and the board. But myself and Rob have been the main decision makers in that. And these are difficult decisions because Brendan has been, head coach of the test team for over four years now, May when he arrived just over four years ago and I think we've seen an incredible time with the England men's test team in

terms of what they've done, where they've captured the imagination of the public, try to play in a different way with considerable success as well but unfortunately over the last six, nine months the results haven't been where we'd want them to be and we just think now is the right time for a chance. change because we've got an Ashes series again here. This time next year we'll be in the middle of an Ashes series and we've got we've got 10 tests leading up to that and we would like to try and make the changes now as quickly as we can to ensure that we're in the best place possible. When was the decision made and when was Brendan informed of it? Yeah we've been having

discussions with Brendan specifically on this for the last 24 36 hours. Prior to that we know We'd had some open discussions in terms of splitting the roles and how it could look like. Brendan is disappointed, wanted to carry on in the job, but is also a consummate professional, a really good person and has very strong ambition still for the England team. As we see from good result last night going number one ranked T20 team in the world. He is clearly one of the best coaches in the world and our job now is to find another to compliment him alongside him looking after the men's test team. You say the time's right now, why was the time not right after the ashes?

Because there's been an awful lot that has unraveled since then with Ben Stokes retiring as well and leaving the game. Is this a recognition that actually this is a move that should have been made much earlier? Well I would contest no because certainly I wanted to keep them. management team in play. I think we saw with women's ashes 18 months ago when we had some difficult times in there that you sometimes need to make changes sooner rather than later but what we saw immediately after the ashes in terms of a semi-final of the T20 World Cup and the whiteball squad coming together in the way that it did and the

determination to learn lessons from the ashes you know in previous years, maybe you do a clean sweep and you lose some of the lessons. So we were adamant that we wanted to try and learn those lessons and we are fortunate enough to have a group of coaches and cricket leaders that were determined to get revenge and learn those lessons and to move on. But sadly, in terms of New Zealand and the way that that test series ended up, we didn't get the results and we are in a results-based business and it's the results ultimately that determine what happened.

And no bigger results than the ashes. And of the three key figures of that campaign, then Ben Stokes, Brenda McCullum, both gone. Why does Rob Key remain? Rob Key remains because he is a very significant leader within the organisation. He's got a lot of experience. And we always want to be able to work as much as we can

in terms of the long term. as you rightly point out that we are, you know, we know that we've got a new captain to select. We now know that we've got a new test coach to select and we want to, we want to be able to do that from a position of stability. We recently brought our Marcus North as their national selector and, you know, behind those individuals, there's a very large and competent and capable team that sits there, whether it's analysts, whether it's medical staff, performance directors. And so we've got a solid, stable team and we just want to make sure that we make the way we make the changes in the right areas. Does Rob Key have your backing into the future then long time?

Of course, yeah, of course. I mean, otherwise decisions would have gone the other way. And these are two-way conversations that happen between myself and Rob and Brendan and others on a regular basis. When you're working in high-performance sport, you always know that there is potentially a timely, potentially a time limit on your ability to continue doing the job and you know your aim is to try and do as many good things as you can in that time that you've got available. I remember the briefing that you gave in March.

We've gathered here at the ECB offices and you and Rob Key talked about wanting the team but specifically Brenda McCullum to evolve as a coach. Was that a miscalculation? No, I don't think so at all and I I think Brendan is a better coach now than he was this time last year. The test side? Not for the test side because the results have not gone our way. But everybody needs to always learn and adapt every day, every month.

I know I do and when you're working in high performance environments, that's what you see and that's what happens. Do you have any regrets over Ben Stokes' situation, the way that was handled and ultimately his resignation, his retirement? How did that unfold from your perspective? Ben will go, I think, into history books as one of our best ever players, best ever captains. He did the job for a very long time under very intense pressure. and I am personally grateful for him and I know that supporters, cricket supporters across the country

are grateful for everything that he's done. But as we've seen, great players, they come to an end. Heather Knight, unfortunately, will be retiring at the end of this test match. Tammy Beaumont also retiring. Unfortunately, it does get to the time when people feel that they need to move on. Our job, I think, in sports administration is to try and make sure that we keep the best players on the pitch for as long as possible. And if they go out at a moment of their choosing, then that's not a bad place to be.

Do you feel what happened around the celebrations post-laws that that played into Stokes' decision to ultimately step down when he did? I don't know. I don't think so personally. I think this was something that he's been thinking about for a while. He said it himself. You know, these are sometimes complicated situations. What I'm pleased though is that he was able to decide to leave at a moment at a time of his

shooting. Not many sportsmen get to do that, all sports women. You know, often it's the call from the selector that ends your career and I'm just delighted that whether it's Ben or Tammy or Heather, three genuine giants of our game have been had the opportunity to to make the decisions themselves. You have got to now find a new head coach for the test team as well as a new captain. What comes first? Coach.

Yeah, very much in terms of coach. Because the coach will have their own views, strong views, no doubt, and work with Rob Key and Marcus North to assess all of the options and then go from there. Would that be a full open recruitment process, interviews, like I think, advertised position? Well, it's advertised. People know that it's available.

as of today but in terms of this process it will be a targeted selection process we often do a lot of work in terms of in terms of planning as to succession etc and you know we're no different I will always keep a short list going of coaches and various other positions and in truth this position is probably one where the short list is no more than six to ten names globally. Anyone who has been a pressure? Of the diverse nature, in terms of conversations, they will start to happen now and Rob Key will be leading on those.

We did not want to start a process until we'd had good honest conversations with Brendan because that wouldn't seem right. And so those things are in train now. And of course, having had a coach of Brendan's skill set, mindset, the way he ran the team, what type of coach do you want to take the test team forward now? Well I think that's when you look at the skills that we've got and the talents that we've got within the team. It is a team that has been playing relatively aggressive cricket, but there are always options for the pattern of play to change depending on what the coach wants

and where the coach believe those skillsets are. So it's going to have to be an individual that complements the skill sets that we've got within the players and can bring the very best out of them. The timing of this announcement, a lot of fans jumping on social media suggesting why now, in the middle of a women's test match, when a lot of the limelight, even for the T20 World Cup, was the overshadowed by the events around the men's Trent Bridge test match. Was there any consideration to give us to when this was announced and why now today? Certainly consideration, particularly with Heather's departure last night, an England

semi-final event last night, Wimbledon's final going on today and the fact that our men's team also assembled for a whiteball series tomorrow at Edgebaston. So the timing is never ideal. The focus that we've been putting and seeing on the women's game over the last three to four weeks in the Women's World Cup has been extraordinary. A quarter of a million people coming through the gates. Viewing figures have been really strong. I think it was 400,000 on Sky last Sunday for the semi-final. And here where MCC have done an amazing job with 30,000 tickets sold.

I think the women's game in England is strong than it's ever been. and having just returned from an ICC conference in Edinburgh, you can see every other member country is looking at the level of excitement and investment that we've got going into our women's game and they're slightly envious. And so they should be because women's cricket is on the march. It's fine then. Do you expect to have a head coach or want to have a head coach installed in time for the first Pakistan test or might we see an interim for that test? I think we would like to see a coach installed for that.

Clearly, the individuals that will be within our shortlist, we'll have other commitments, etc. They may be international cricket, they may be county cricket, they may be franchise cricket, and we'll need to work through those. But ideally, yes, but alternatively an interim solution could be in place if that allows us to get to the best possible decision later on down the line. Thank you very much. Thank you. There's this song. When he gets to a bit, the whole place goes. So good, so good, so good. You've got to do the arm bit too. So funny. I love that bit. We know that feeling.

The FIFA World Cup 2026. On 5 Live in BBC Sounds. He's widely recognised as one of the greatest footballers in history. won the prestigious Ballandeur Award five times. He's the all-time leading goal scorer in professional football. And according to the Bloomberg Billionaires Index, he's the first active footballer in history to achieve billionaire status. Guess who we're talking about yet? That's right.

Good Bad Billionaire is exploring the life and fortune of football icon Cristiano Ronaldo. That's Good Bad Billionaire from the BBC World Service. Listen now, wherever you get your BBC podcasts.