Test Match Special - Michael Holding

Episode Date: August 6, 2021

West Indies legend Michael Holding joined Jonathan Agnew at Trent Bridge to talk about his book "Why we kneel, how we rise".

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When Test Match Special colleague, our colleague Ebony Rainford-Brent, and the former West Indies Fast Bull and Michael Holdings spoke from the heart about their experiences of racism. It came in the wake of the Black Lives Matter protests that follow the death of George Floyd in Minneapolis. And the way that Michael spoke so passionately about the need to educate and find a way forward resonated with many, including some of the most famous sports stars in the world

who contacted him to help spread the message and that has led to Michael to release a book Why We Kneel, How We Rise and is here with us now. Michael, it's lovely to see you it always is a pleasure to welcome this program but we don't see enough of you. Thank you very much, Alex. I'm always glad to be with you.

Well, always more genial than you were about 30 years ago and you're tearing them off 40 yards but anyway, we might talk about that later on. Well, the book, did you ever think you write a book about this? No, never, ever. And even after what I said on Sky and all the feedback that I got, I still did not intend to write

a book, but constant, if you want for a better word, pressure from outside, constantly people to say, no, Mike, you can't leave it there, including Ian Howard in the commentary box. He was one of the first men that came to me and said, well, what next? Right. And eventually I decided, you know, with Ed Hawkins,

because Ed wanted to do a book as well. And I said, no initially, and then eventually I said, oh, you know what, let us go. Let us try and do it. Can you believe you've done it? I mean, would you, you know, 10 years ago, have even thought of... No, definitely not. And 10 years ago, I wouldn't have had the knowledge to even start a book like that.

You know, I still did a lot of research to eventually get the end product. But I wouldn't have had the knowledge 10 years ago to even think about, yes, I know enough to even start the book. But as I said to you off here before, the last 15 years of my life, I've been doing a lot more reading. because as you get older, as you stop going to the discos and that sort of thing. Have you stopped? Oh, yeah, a long time ago. A long time ago.

So you get back from cricket as a commentator. You go to your room. You might have a drink or dinner with your friends and that sort of thing. But then you have a lot of free time. So I started to read more about it because this thing has bugged me for donkeys years, all this racism and the treatment of people of color around the world. I decided to do a lot more reading, to learn more.

As a matter of fact, there was a friend of mine in South, Africa, who told me to look up a particular thing on the internet about Mugabe and the Lancaster House Agreement, because I had no idea about it. And I started to read more and more and more stuff. So I was... That was the starting point, was it? Yeah, I was... Bredesia Zimbabwe and how that came about it. Yeah, definitely. A friend of, you know, Albae in South Africa.

There's a friend of Albi Nica who said to me, Mikey, you need to go and read this stuff. Because I was making a few comments about Mugabe and he said, I don't think you know the full story. read this stuff. Yeah. It's interesting because, having read the book, when you were being brought up in Jamaica, it didn't seem that really there was, this was obviously not an issue

or to you. I mean, there was an issue with your parents. Yes, my mother's family, yes. But again, you're going back into the 1930s, 1940s, 1950s. I was born in 54. So by the time I got into the society, Percy, and just started living a life

and interacting with people in Jamaica's, racism, I didn't experience it. People older than me did. My sisters, my eldest sister, it would be 80 very shortly. The other one is 78, so they would have experienced it, not me. I experienced it for the first time. I heard about it obviously in Jamaica, but I experienced for the first time when I left the island, not in Jamaica.

And you remember what happened? Yeah, it was Australian tour, and then you start to get... 75? Yes, 75, 76, and some things were happening. But, you know, as I have said to so many people at the time, I just brushed it off. I said, these people have a problem. I don't have a problem.

It's there that have this problem. And I'll see me have them behind me. I'll see me going back home. So I didn't worry about it. And that was my attitude for years. But, you know, eventually it wears at you. And it's not easy, Agass. When you're constantly getting up as I didn't have to,

but whenever I went overseas, it would face me every day. But if you're living amongst it every day, it wears you down. Believe me. And you're someone who works in the game. I mean, are you speaking more generally, I guess, about the black population particularly who feel that all the time? Yes. And, no, when we came here with West Indies team in 1976, my first instance of recognising what was happening was a warm-up game at the Oval.

We were playing against, sorry, we were set a target on the last year. As you know, those days, because they didn't get a lot of results without targets being set. Yes, that's true. And we were set a target on the last day, and Lloyd said, we ain't chasing this target. lot of you guys are coming to England. For the first time, we're going to go out there and try and get acclimatized for the test series starting in June. And when we did not chase the target, the fans in the crowd,

it was a warm-up game, but they still came to the game. A lot of West Indians were there, and they started to boo and jeer because they wanted us to win. And then I heard about the fact that, you know, they didn't feel as if they were first-class citizens in this country. They felt second-class, and they wanted to prove to everybody that where these cricketers came from, that's where they came. from and they can win so can we

and later in 1880s when I started to mix more with these guys and to visit their homes and get the stores and travel around the country with them I fully recognized what they were going through yeah there's no doubt that the West Indies teams at that time were they were more than simply just heroes to those people you were evidence of what black people could do and you're part of the world but you were also heroes to us

playing cricket at the time your teams I mean you and You know, you're my friend, my Andy Roberts, these people, they were heroes of our generation, too. For sure, others. And that's why I tell people, even today, there are tons more good people than bad people, whether they're white or black, tons. But the thing is good news doesn't travel,

bad news travels quickly. So the few people that are racist and the few people who will pass remarks and the few people that will do racist acts, they get amplified. especially these days with social media. Yes. But people need to understand

that we just need to push those people into the background, make sure that they become insignificant over time. And then we have to tackle people's minds because people's minds are wired a certain way because of how they are brought up. They are taught certain things growing up. History is taught a particular way, for instance. And the way history is taught

is to suit one race. History is not taught fully that everybody knows everything that has taken place. And that is the way I'm talking about it, education, and that is what this book is about. Educating everyone as to the accomplishments of all sorts

of people. Yes, it's interesting, and I know, well, you'll name someone a minute, but I was reading the Captain Cook, for instance, going off and, in inverted commas, discovering Australia. And, you know, the fact that, you know, it's been there of quite a long time, and then an awful lot of indigenous people lived there at the time as well.

You know, when you do take the stance that you're taking and want people to accept, it's, of course, you didn't discover Australia at all. It has always been there. But the mindset, I suppose, at the time from the Europeans, they didn't know, they didn't exist, but they claimed it. That's European arrogance, because they didn't know about it. It did not exist.

When they know about it, no, they have discovered it. No, no. You have found out that. is there and you have discovered it for the Europeans. You haven't really discovered a land that has been there for thousands of years and people have been living there for thousands of years. People have been trading

with their neighbors for thousands of years. How can you discover that? If I was to take penicillin to some far-off place where they had never heard about penicillin and give it to them, can I tell them I discovered penicillin? No, it's been going on a long time. These people didn't know about it. But I didn't discover

it. Okay. It's interesting your chat with Adam Goods, the Aboriginal Aussie rules player. Yes. Really sets into context, even how recently the indigenous people of Australia were treated. They were not people until the 60s, you know. There weren't even people. They were not people until the 60s. They were considered fauna and fauna.

They were flora and fauna. They were not people. They were not a part of the census. and that is in the story there with Adam Goods that is a point that Adam Goetz his elders made to him because Adam Goode was adamant that things are not changing

he can't be bothered with this when he retired he was 20-something because he retired because of racist remarks and the pressure he was under and he complained to his elders and his elders said Adam one thing you have got to do is remember where you are coming from you have always got to remember history

if you think that you have not made any progress in the 60s is when we became human beings now we are capable of having businesses we are going to university so we have made progress but Adam in his 20s he's not going to remember or know about what happened in the 60s

but you have to remind people of that I had to say that to a young lady here in the UK as well a young black lady oh things aren't never going to get any better I said remember where you're coming from. You've got to know the history. Progress

is slow and you want to see progress a lot more rapid than it is, but there is progress. And as I said to Mark Austin last year, I don't expect to live to see equality. Something that has been going on for hundreds of years, I don't expect to see the change. But I see progress. I see movement in the right

direction. Yeah. You've got some amazing people who have helped contribute to this. I mean, you know, Hussein Hussain Bolt for goodness sake, who has got some of your your country, so I guess he... It wasn't difficult to get it. He put Pop Randi's house. Tierie Henri, Michael Johnson.

I mean, do you go through these... Naomi Osaka. Yeah, absolutely, who's obviously been very much involved recently. I mean, how did you... I mean, were they all really happy to contribute to this? I really wanted to be part of it. The first person I heard from was Terry Henry.

When I came back from talking to Mark Austin last year, I went back to the commercial box and Brian Henderson, the boss at Skycicket, said to me, Mikey, Henry wants to get in touch you, I hope you don't mind that I gave him your number. I said, mind? I've worshipped

this man for so many years watching him play football. And eventually he called me, I spoke to him, and we've chatted for a long time, and the last thing he said to me was we have got to continue talking. But of course, that was COVID, so we couldn't get together to actually meet face to face. But I had moved on anyway.

The next thing I heard that Naomi Sark, I wanted to get in touch. I didn't hear from her directly, but I heard through other people that she said, wanted to get in touch with me. Those are the two people who reached out to me and to us who wrote the book. All the others, we reached out

to them. So Michael Johnson, we reached out to him, reached out to Adam Goetz, reached out to Makaya and T. Hope Powell, we reached out to all of those. And there are others that we reached out to who declined to be involved.

Without a call in the name, but they said no, they weren't interested. But all of those people were happy to get involved because because Thier-Honri again was the first person I called when I decided, okay, I'm going to go ahead with this book, and Thierry said absolutely. Right. It's interesting because I think I'm about saying

that you and Hussein Bolt almost had the same issue where Hussein Bolt went into a jewelist to buy a watch, and it was the first reaction of the sales assistant was to look at say, do you know how much it costs? Exactly. You're not going to afford this. It's just in our mind. Yeah, and you had the same similar.

Same thing, and my sister, when I sent her the chapter, because I was sending them chapters along the way. She said me, she told me she had the same situation in Canada when she went to Canada to study. Same exact situation, same watch situation as well. And your response was to buy it without even asking what the price was. And he paid a bit over the odds or something. You paid a bit more for.

Not over the odd, but over what I wanted to spend. Because I was trying to send a signal. I said, don't form impressions and come to conclusions about somebody just because of the color of the skin. I'm going to bite whether you like it or not. and that you would argue is what's happening out in the big wild world everywhere I mean you talk a lot about America in here obviously I mean and you've lived you spent a lot of time living in America

haven't you living in Cayman I mean do you think that that our society here British society is similar to the American society or is that really you know I don't think it's bad here no the gun situation is totally different others. You can die a split second in America if you cross somebody on the street that is just

totally different. But you have similar mindsets in this country as to that country. And that is why we see what happened with the football, you see what happened with people on the streets. It's nowhere as acute as it is in the US. But you have similar mindsets. And again,

I don't blame people for the way they think. It is the way you are taught, the way you are educated, and the way you grow up believing, as I said from the very first time I spoke about this thing. This thing seeps into your head like ausposes without you knowing. You're not even aware of the thoughts that you're having

because that's just what you're accustomed to. For instance, as I said to Steve Sacko on hard talk, don't blame me for thinking that Jesus Christ was a white man with blonde hair and blue eyes. That is what I was thought. Later on in life, I discovered that it was a lie. He could never have looked like that coming from the place he came from at that time in history.

But that is what I was thought. That's every image that I saw. Judas was always a black man. So you're going to grow up thinking, hell, Jesus is a black man. He's the man who betrayed Jesus. That is the image that they give you and the brainwashing that they do. And a lot of people have had that. So I don't blame white people for thinking the way that they think.

But it is time to get educated and to get rid of those thoughts. You mentioned 1976. So Tony Gregg, and I'm not. I was there at the Oval when you took all those wickets speed of light and Tony Gregg grovelled in the course of that game

because there he was in his broad South African accent at the start of that tour saying that England would make you grovel you don't like it when you pressure's on we're going to make them grovel

and you just come back from Australia then so we go back to that time how did you feel about that and also you must have worked with Gregie since and probably loved him But did you get the chance to talk to him about that and what the impact of that statement was at the time?

You never ever discusses to Gregi. But as time went on, you got to know the real Tony Gregg. And again, that is education. If you don't know, you don't know. If you know, it's a different situation. When Tony Gregg made that comment, I saw it live on television. I was watching a Sunday league game down at hope.

Peter West is interviewing him, isn't? Yes, and I saw it live. Not everyone saw it, because a lot of us were. and watching the game. But we made sure everybody knew after what he had said. I was livid. I hated this man.

A South African only plane for England because South Africa was banned from plane, and come out and say in this and use that particular word. I don't think he understood the connotations of the word

that he used when he said he would make them grubble. But later on in life, when I got to know Tony Gregg, I recognized that Tony Gregg was not a racist. But immediately in my mind, South African,

during apartheid, saying that word about a team that is almost 100% black. But as I got to know Tony Gregg, I got to know that he was not a racist. It's a stupid thing to say. It's a stupid thing to say. And when you look back on life, if Tony Gregg was a total racist aggers,

when he, as you say, groveled and crawled off the field at the oval, he would not have done it. No. He would be going off proud anyway. I'm still superior to you. That's all I think. He did not do that.

But I wasn't even thinking about that at the time. But as I said, I got to know the man. We became good friends. Yeah, I'm sure you would. How do you view at the moment the taking of the knee? Which last year, I guess, because the West Indies were over here touring, it seemed a more natural thing to do, I guess, because they were here also. I got me jumping right before you go in the further.

I don't like that idea because it's a black team here. going to take a knee. Okay. No. If you're supporting the cause, you're supporting the cause. Yeah, because it hasn't happened since.

That's my point. And that is my point as well. That it is ignorant to do it that way. You cannot take the knee because you're playing against a black team, and when the black team has gone home, you stop taking the knee. If you're supporting the cause, you're supporting the cause.

The worldwide accepted gesture for supporting black lives matter, and again, I want to specify, and I'm not talking about any political movement. I'm talking about the three words, people with black skin their lives matter is to take a knee the footballers have done it throughout

they say they will continue to do it through their football season this year so why not if you believe in it just take a knee how long does it take just show the world that you support it that you believe that people with black skin their lives matter

and move on to your game or move on to whatever else you're doing why is it that difficult if it don't support it that's fine that is fine I'm not telling anybody to support it Because some don't, and some black footballers choose not to. Yeah, but they choose not to because they are fed up with taking a knee and seeing no action. Isn't that because they believe that taking a knee is irrelevant?

Yeah. They want action after taking the knee, and they are frustrated with not seeing the action. What do you say to people who do say that, well, Black Lives Matter? There is that, whether you like it or not, there is a connection with a political movement that has got some pretty extreme ideas. There's no connection. But it's the same name. Yeah.

That is all that here. There's no connection agles. Right. People with black skin their lives matter. Forget black lives matter. Has that message got through to people? People who boo when they take the need because they say, but this is supporting a movement that wants to defund the police and so on.

That's what people say. Yeah, because they want to take that angle. They don't want to see change. They don't want to accept that black lives matter. And so they find an excuse not to support the movement. Yeah. But there is that... How can you stop that connection?

How can you stop people making that connection between... By enlightening them and letting them recognize that we are all one. Those people don't want to see change others. And I'm live here on BBC. I'm telling you all who say they don't want to see change. They're happy with their lives. They don't need to see change. But you're also saying that people who take a knee

are not supporting any way a political movement that wants to defund the police and these sort of... I'm not telling everybody that takes a knee does not want to support. That I don't know. I don't know what's in their heads. But the worldwide accepted gesture for supporting the fact that people with black skin, their lives matter, is to take a knee. That started from Martin Luther King days. More recently, Colin Kaepernick brought it alive again.

Colin Kaepernick, when he went down on his knee, he think he was thinking about defunding police. He wanted to show the world that he is fighting against the disrespect of people of color in America. How did you feel, I can guess I felt, because we all felt sickened by those. messages that came out to Marcus Rashford and people like that after a football game when he missed a penalty. And it seemed like a lot of the good work that had been done was just unraveled.

I don't believe that. Again, that's his social media highlighting these people. These people, as I said, are in the minority. Social media has allowed them to seem as if they are big, powerful and out there in this world. If there was no social media, they would have gone to a bar with the friends and made their racist comments amongst themselves. It wouldn't have been highlighted as it is now.

When the Marcus Rastrod mural was mutilated, did you see how many people came out to support him? Absolutely. You see how quickly they covered up whatever was written on it with black plastic bags and the artists went back to fix the mural and how many people went out there, black, white, brown, black lives matter. Because they want to show that those people who did that, in the minority.

So that sounds a positive message from me then. Of course. You've got to go in a minute. You've got to go and work elsewhere. But that does sound as if you do feel there is positivity growing then. Because there's a lot. I have been walking around England since I wrote that book. And since I said what I said on Sky,

and we've been getting a lot of positive feedback from people. I did a book signing here at the ground yesterday. I signed over 110 books. And everyone who came up to me was saying, Mikey, and these are a lot of white people. I'm glad you wrote this book. A lady came to me at breakfast this morning. and said, I'm reading your book, I'm absorbing it,

and I intend to act on what I am reading and what I'm learning. A history teacher came to me yesterday. When I signed this book and said, I have read this book, and my school intents have changed the way we teach history. Because history was taught to suit one set of people. The amount of black achievers and black innovators and inventors, who knows them? Because they have been airbrushed out of history,

because the brainwashing continues. Very emotional, Michael. August, the world needs to change. We were all one, people at one. Do you know that this race theory is only about 500 years old? There was nothing called race with it before 500 years ago. And the race theory was brought in because they wanted to make sure that they did everything they could to dehumanize people in Africa so that they could go and steal their resources.

Every movement was planned against, 1886 Berlin Conference, when all the European nations came together to divide up Africa amongst themselves to make sure that they weren't fighting over territory because Europe was broke. They needed the resources of Africa. But they had to make sure that when they were doing the evil that they were doing, they didn't feel as if they were doing wrong. See, they make sure they dehumanized the race to say they are inferior.

Don't worry about what you're doing to them. They are inferior. Don't worry about them. It's like stepping on a cockroach. And that was the start of it all. Believe it. People can go and read all this. The so-called scientists that are even revered today. This man, Voltaire, who was a quack,

talking about white people's brains better than black people's brain because of the size of the skull. He was a quack. But he is still revered today as some brilliant scientists, Voltaire. Go and read about him. I'm going to. Rubbish. How about cricket?

Cricket. What's that? No, there's cricket? Is cricket got a problem? I don't think sport has a problem. I think the society has a problem. People always talk about what should cricket do, what should football do, what should whatever sport do.

Even horse racing, what should they do? If each sport thinks that they need to do, things to diversify the way and look big, the way they look differently, that is fine. But until you fix the society, you cannot fix the sport. The people who play the sport, the people who administer the sport, People who come to cheer at the grounds, the fans at the sport, they come from the society.

If there's nothing wrong with society, if you can push the minority into oblivion, where they have no influence and they are no longer recognised, society will be fine, and you won't have a problem in sport. And how are you going to feel, last all, Michael, I mean, when are you going to feel that you've achieved something? Or maybe you already feel that you've achieved something? I feel that I have achieved because of the reaction that have been given. and from what people are saying, but it needs to go much further beyond that.

It's a long time, is it? It's going to take a very long, as I said before, I do expect to live to see it. But what we need now is the people with power, the people who make policy. They are the ones who need to get on board. And if they do not get on board, it will take even longer.

If they get on board, the movement will be a lot quicker, a lot easier to see. Policy is what shapes the world. and a lot of private enterprise, they are changing their policy. Agas, I could talk about this thing forever, but I'll give you one more example. There was a bank who, a gentleman within the bank, went and interviewed a lot of people of color, blackened people of color in the bank

and asked them their experiences, and of course, there had a lot of bad stories and can't get promotion and that sort of thing. And he wrote an article and specified all these things. years ago if you had done that he would have been fired you know what happened the bank sat down and said hey

we have a problem this is real we have a problem we need to sort it out and they sat down and put policy in place to make sure that they made changes and they set a target

that is positive move because as I said years ago they would have fired him you can't go out and wash our door to laundry in public and embarrass us they would have just fired

the man continued as they were. They are making changes and they have made it public that they are making changes. And does it need positive discrimination, quotas in the case of South African cricket? No, if you read Macaiah chapter, I don't agree with it at all.

Because when you start thinking about having quota systems, as Maccaia found out, even after taking 300 wickets, he was still considered a quota player. Because they're using an excuse. They're looking for whatever excuse they can to make him.

That's a really good point actually. Yeah, and also others. If you promote people and Amla as well. Amra also would have been considered a quota player, I guess, rather than a player. After batting that, remember him here in London at the Oval 300, yeah.

The other side of that as well is if you promote someone into a position or put them into a position that they cannot handle, you put a black man in a position and he can't handle it, everybody's going to say see put him there you can hang later totally they can't do the job

so you make sure that they get the opportunity to learn and to earn their position don't just put them in a position tokenism and the South African situation I hope and I've said this to Alibaka

on numerous occasions because I get along very well with Alibaka and people are surprised that I get along with Alibaka because he was behind all rebels He's very personal though but it's a great guy but anyway I believe that instead of going into different regions

and plucking people like how they plucked Makaya and teeny and put them in a special school that you put facilities all around the country give everyone an equal opportunity if they don't want to take that opportunity that is fine but when you start pushing people where they do not belong it creates problems it's a massive topic Michael

it is I was very nervous before I wrote that book were you very I was very skeptical as well. Even the literary agent, I called our ones and I said, are we really going to do this thing? And she said, why? I say, I'm nervous.

I do not want to get involved in this thing unless we do a proper job. But I'm very happy with the end result. Ed Hawkins did a fantastic job. We did a lot of research together. I would find things and send him and he would do the research on it to make sure that what I had sent him

was actually factual and it wasn't just some website that produced rubbish. And we did a lot of research to make sure that it's full of facts. And this is why people who might not like that book, they cannot contradict it.

Well, it's a must read, and you can hear Michael's voice just throughout it. We've enjoyed listening to this lunchtime, Michael. Thank you. My pleasure, thanks for popping in. Greatly see you. Might have been off the long run there. We should bring back some horrible memories. The last time we spoke, we spoke about the Derby a long time ago.

A long time ago. Yes. Take care, Michael. Lovely to see you. Good luck with the book. Why We Kneel, How We Rise, by Michael Holding, contributions from Hussein Bolt, Adam Goode, Cheren-Ree, Michael Johnson, Naomi Osaka,

Hope Powell, it's yeah, it's a powerful piece of work. BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts.