Test Match Special - No Balls: The Cricket Podcast - a friend of the podcast shares their amazing story.

Episode Date: January 3, 2022

Kate Cross and Alex Hartley speak to their close friend and colleague H Cowen as they talk through a change in their life. This one really is a really special episode.

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Hello and welcome back to No Bowers of Cricket podcast with me Kate Cross and you Alex Hartley. How are you doing? I am. Very well, thank you. How are you? Yeah, I'm good. All things considered, I'm very well. how more importantly how's the COVID it's gone crossy it's gone and the rules changed didn't they

just before Christmas and I was able to get out my Christmas day I have a question for you regarding COVID yes have you burnt those god damn pajamas I know that was coming um I haven't they are on the floor in my bedroom ready for a watch yes I mean to be fair to you you left the flat so that I could come home and you packed three items of clothing, one of them being the top of those pyjamas and the bottom of the pyjamas being the second things. Bit sad, we're not allowed to live together now before we all go to Australia.

Yeah, it is a bit sad actually. But you know what? You're probably deep down quite happy about it. No, I'm not actually. Do you know what I've realised though? And we've kind of come to this, we're chatting about this the other day. But I think it's giving us our friendship spark back, hasn't it?

It has. We've been weird again, haven't we? Really, really weird. quick example of this we were both we were just chatting away texting each other the other the other night not one of us had mentioned this and within the same second

we both sent a message saying I'm watching 14 peaks on Netflix and we'd not spoken about that program in our lives before and we both sent the same message at the same time and we were both like wow shut up and I was like I'm nine minutes in and you're like I'm 11 minutes in

I was like what's going on it was like the old us when we used to turn up in the same socks again We're back So we've been worried that this podcast hasn't been that funny for a few weeks And we think it's because we live together So we're back, baby

We've got a guest We have got a guest Yeah, I just wanted people to know That they're not just going to listen to us Wang on for 45 minutes I mean we do But With a guest

With a guest With a different voice Bit of sticky note Bit of sticking out Get on the sticky note The Mashes Crossy Yeah, the Mashes

We stayed up to watch Day 3 of the Melbourne test and it was done by 1 a.m. Yeah, it was an early night, wasn't it? It's saying that it wasn't, because I think we both were in a similar boat in that we both couldn't sleep because I think we were so...

Shell shots. Shell shots, but like emotionally drained by what we'd seen. And if that's affecting us in that way, way back in England, you know, at home at one in the morning, how are those lads getting on over there? I know. That dressing room will have been a very,

very silent. Do you know what's really wound me up though in the midst of all this and the mashes and obviously the guys haven't remotely performed their way that they want to? People like on Twitter who find it so easy from their armchairs at 1am talking about these people, as if they know them, about the players as if they know them, celebrating people having COVID. Oh no. What is going on with that? And then slating Joe Rue for things that are mostly out of his control. It's really wet. It's actually quite upset me this week being on Twitter

and I've tried to avoid it as much as possible. You know what? I've not actually been on Twitter since the end of the ashes because it has been so negative. Exactly. Like, first and foremost, people saying that Joe Root's got to go obviously he's not done as well as he wants to over there. But who are you replacing him with?

Well, that's what my... Okay, if you think Joe Root is going to go, tell me who you're replacing him with. Who else can keep their place in that team? Joe Root is literally the leading run scorer and... The only person that's probably got his name nailed on in that team. Exactly, other than James Anderson who isn't going to captain that test team. Well, you say that didn't play in the first game, so he's not nailed on.

Yeah, that calf concern that he had. So anyway, it's wow me up and this is not a quick fix. This is not a Silverwood out, root out, that's going to fix this team. This is structural problems that we've got at the ECB in terms of, like, the prioritisation of red ball cricket which let's be honest since 2015 hasn't been the case it's all been white ball cricket yeah but look how things changed from white ball cricket from 2015 white ball cricket changed forever in england from that moment now we've had a bad bad bad time in australia but things will change or should change and if they don't then there's a problem

i also think like how naive people can be to not realise that sport is cyclical like there is cycles of young players coming through you've got to blood them you've got to give them the experiences and the exposure they're not just going to be world's best test team overnight especially going trying to win in Australia which is notoriously difficult and not many teams do it so maybe just think bigger picture England is still the fourth best test team in the world yeah it doesn't look like it right now it doesn't I'll give you that because we're playing because we're playing Australia and they've got the best test bowler in the world then they've got some geyser that's coming to play and takes five per on debut.

Crazy, they dropped to a guy who took five for to play a debuton who took six for. Well, they've got cricketers coming out their ears, haven't they? Just quickly, I think we should all take a minute to just say a prayer for Joe Roots, gooly-wooly-oosies. Yeah, me too, because it's been three times now. Happened again, didn't it? And I just, again, it was the hammer blow. Well, Crossy, the hammer blow and he's hosting this podcast, as your tweet said.

Yeah. One more away from hosting, I think. You can have it. I'll give it him. This is really loosely mashes related. So if you've got anything that's more mashes related, we can go to you first. Well, I have. I've got something mashes related.

Now, it's a crisis that we've lost the ashes. You know, it's not good. We've got two tests left. but things are going to get a better crossy because I'm going to go out there I'm going to commentate on the fourth and the fifth test and I've got a good feeling I think I'm the good omen

I'm really glad you've mentioned this because this ties in nicely with my really loosely mashes chat but how amazing you fly in like a couple of days and you're going to get to go out to Sydney and do the Hobart test as well and it is a real shame that you're not going out there in like a series decider or something

but still incredible But it's been a record-breaking test series one way or another and I'm going to make my debut on the men's ashes and I'm so excited. Amazing. And you're getting to go to Australia as well. I know and then stay there for your Ashes series and then go so woke up and I might just never come home. Yeah, I can see that happening actually.

So my real loose Mashes chat was because you are going to Australia you've got to dive through hoops to get there. You're doing all these PCRs. you've got to do all this training and you messaged me the other day saying by mistake you found yourself doing

a crash course can we call it that yeah so to get into the SCG you have to do health and safety courses so there was a health and safety one one for the media and one for whatever you're about to say

how to drive a forklift truck safely around the SCG Yeah, I started doing this exam on how to drive a forklift truck around the SCG No quicker than 10 kilometres per hour, might I add But once I started it, I thought, well, I might not finish it now, it's quite interesting Please, please make it your goal to drive a forklift truck when you get to the SCJ, please So I'm hoping, do you know, when you get your PMOA and it's yours will say PMOA on it. And I'm hoping that I'll say a like forklift driver.

Oh my God. I've never, it really got me because I just wasn't expecting it. But I think I'm on the wrong course. I'm learning how to drive a forklift truck. Honestly, the most bizarre course I've ever done. Oh, incredible. Right. We have mentioned that we've got a guess, but just quickly before that, we need to,

Firstly, I hope everyone had a lovely Christmas. We've completely bypassed the fact that we've had a public holiday since the last podcast. And a happy new year. Yes. So we hope you all manage somehow to have a nice day, whether you're isolating, whether you were with your fan, whatever you were doing. I hope it was good. We have concluded this year in quite a spectacular fashion as a podcast.

We started it as us too on our own. recording, sending out on our own and we finished it out with our debut at the darts. Yes, we did. And can we tell about everything in between the guests we've had signing with the BBC and now we're at the darts? Someone made a sign and put us...

I think we're on the telly. I've not seen any footage of it yet, but it was hashtag tinsle-sniffer. Nice. Hashtag spuds. Obviously. And hashtag psychopaths on tour. because we are obviously um so yeah thank you so much to everyone for your support you've been

brilliant and we're bringing in the new year with a very special guest who is very very close to our hearts i'm so excited to welcome back for a second time to the podcast our very very own h two fingers yes i'm so excited as well h welcome to the podcast Thank you very much for having me I'm honoured and thrilled and privileged Only really special people call on twice I do feel like I've cheated the system a little bit We get a lot of messages saying

Please get H back on the pod Because the original H2 fingers episode A year and a half ago now is it It was when we're in the Derby bubble So two thousand times Yeah great times Really fond memories there But that was one of our most listened to podcast, the power

You want to see my Spotify raps because it's just 75,000 minutes of that episode, just again and again, just trying to get my numbers up. And all of those emails, they are all from me and my mum. So I'm glad that someone else who's listening on repeat because Crossy likes to listen to them on repeat as well, so. It just makes us feel good. Why not?

You need a serotonin boost from time to time. Inflate those numbers. Speaking of serotonin, how are you? How's your serotonin levels? They're good. What a beautiful segue. Yeah, I'm all right, thank you. I'm currently COVID testing every 20 to 30 minns,

trying to make sure that we got on the plane on January the 7th to go to Australia for your ashes. Excited about that, looking forward to that. Happy to have so far not picked up the old COVID's over Christmas. So just keeping everything crossed. So you guys are having to like sort of safe live now, aren't you, before you go to Australia, which in itself is like quarantine, let's be honest. It's ironic really because we, at the moment, this obviously could change,

but the moment we don't have to quarantine when we get to Australia, but we're doing like 10 days pre-flight. So I've not seen like my niece is over Christmas. And this is the stuff we bang on about all the time with podcasts, but this is the stuff that people don't know about. No, I mean, I'm having to move into a hotel in a few days because from January the 4th, you can't have anyone in your household go into any shops and I have a housemate.

So I can't be like, by the way, James, from January, the fourth, you can't leave the home because I've got a work trip. But you're spot on, Kate. One of the, one of the biggest things I've experienced since being lucky enough to move into sport is these kind of sacrifices. And often they're on the athletes alone. In this particular case, it's staff as well. But yeah, it is hard. It's hard. It's not massively fun. But hopefully there's a carrot at the end, which is a very exciting Ashes trip. Tiny little bit of context, because we've thrown you into this. So for anyone who hasn't listened to us pre-BBC, we have got a very special podcast bond with H.

So H is the England Women's Media Manager. H is the person who encouraged us, genuinely encouraged us to start this podcast and actually allowed us to do it. There was also this running joke that H never listened to the pod because what they didn't know couldn't hurt them. So way back when,

talking like 18 months ago, two years ago, someone made a drinking game that whenever we mentioned H on the podcast, you had to drink two fingers. So H became H2 fingers if you were playing the drinking game. It's so ironic that we then re-brought up the fact that you have, since this podcast has come out, been on quite a journey and we've had to change the language around the drinking game. So we had to talk about it on the podcast. And H, honestly, the number of messages that we've got just from mentioning you and your story has been quite overwhelming. So we wanted to get you on to see if you'd be willing to talk to us about everything.

No, I'm not. I see you. I mean, honestly, it's incredible to hear that you've had so many nice emails and responses and stuff. I can't, it's, you know, cricket and sport in general, not always a super inclusive place, sometimes struggle to be welcoming to people from different communities and different backgrounds. So for your listeners to be seemingly such an open and kind group of people, I think is a great reflection on you to. And it's lovely to hear. So, yeah, I'm very excited to talk about it. It was one of those for us where we've obviously known this journey for a while. And we were like,

let's talk about it or can we talk about it? And you gave it the go ahead. And then blown away by the responses. Like, so if I'm blown away, how do you feel about it? very lucky surprised and i guess your response on your podcast is a little bit of a a smaller example of the the response i've had in general um since coming out as as trans non-binary which has been really positive and and warming and encouraging and loving and i guess when you're struggling to come to terms with who you are and to share that with other people you're always telling yourself that you're unlovable and awful and nobody's going to have any interest or any desire to kind of love you when you tell that big awful secret. And actually what's

happened, and I'm still amazed by it, I'm still kind of waiting to wake up and, you know, find hate mail through the letterbox. You know, I'm so surprised at how warm and kind and big-hearted it's been. And it's so, it's so meaningful. It's incredible. It's, it's sad. that your overwhelming feeling is surprised, isn't it? Like that that actually hurts me in my soul that that would ever be a worry for you. Obviously, me and I'll have known you for years now. Ever since that trip to Abu Dhabi when we invited you out for dinner, we've not looked back since then.

But we've only ever encouraged you to be the person that you are. And we knew that that would be the overwhelming response. But I guess for you, it never feels like that because it's your journey and your story to tell. But honestly, it's just been absolutely amazing. We're so proud of you for doing what you've done. Well, I mean, thank you so much. And thank you for being, you know, thank you for talking about it on the show.

Thank you, you know, beyond the show for always encouraging me to be me. You've both played an important role at different times. You really have. And as you say, there's a few of you, two and other cricketers and staff members and colleagues, etc. who've known about this for longer than just the last few months. And, you know, that support was invaluable in helping me get to that point. So, yeah, bring on the loving emails, guys. Yes, keep them going.

For anybody that doesn't know, what does trans non-binary mean? Because there'll be some people listening to this podcast that go, I don't know what that is. Yeah, absolutely. I'm sure there'll be lots of people because it is, it can seem confusing. And I was very keen when I shared this initially to try and break it down. So there's obviously two parts to the word. Trans or short for transgender is an umbrella term for any person whose sense of self, sense of their own identity does not correspond with the gender that they were assigned at birth.

So you can have transgender men, you can have transgender women, and in my case, transgender non-binary people. So transgender men are people now who are, well, they've always been. men, but they were assigned female at birth and vice versa. Transgender women were assigned male at birth. So, you know, socially they may have appeared to be the gender that in their heart, in their brain, in their soul, wherever, that didn't feel right for them. So, so transgender is just an umbrella term under which other terms can sit. So in this instance, non-binary, non-binary means basically in real shorthand terms, neither feeling fully male nor fully female. So if you imagine a scale, from nought to 100 and well noughts is male and a hundred is female I believe that I exist

along that scale at different points feeling different depending on what's going on in the world and I've never felt like he him ever in my life and that's gone back to you know for five years old however as long as I can remember and so so that's the long and the short of those terms and it can be more complicated than that not all non-binary people would describe themselves as transgender obviously not all transgender people are non-binary because they may indeed be male or female. But that's why there's a combination of things. It was important for me to add the word transgender when I shared my news because I felt that my unease with my own sense of self, i.e. I am not a man.

That's been a huge part of my life. So it wasn't as simple as I am just, they, them and I'm brilliant, let's crack on, which you might be for some people. but it was also, it's been really bad. I've been very unhappy, and this is where I've got to. So hopefully that gives a little summary. It's definitely confusing and complicated, but I think that it's important to try and break it down. I think that just goes to show the complexity of what this whole thing is, isn't it?

It's not simple, and I guess that from my point of view as your friend. Like, you get into the point where you feel comfortable enough to know those terms and can associate, with those terms, it must actually be really important for you to have got to that phase. Before I go on, did that make any sense? Yeah, yeah. Did you get it out? If Al gets it, anyone will get it. I would like to think, I got it.

Yeah, you'd really tuned in like you're listening to a TED talk. Yeah, no, I was trying to think, if I was a 12-year-old girl, would I understand what's being said right now? Yeah, they probably would. The younger generation are much better than us. They get it. They just, they just like that. They're like, cool. crack on. Yeah. I think it's really important that everyone knows that you can always ask these

questions. Like I think there's this sense around, around trans issues around gender, around sexuality, that things are off limits. And, you know, some questions are, you're never going to ask someone. You should never be walking up for someone and being like, what's between your legs. But, you know, you can absolutely, you know, what pronouns do you prefer? Yeah, am I being right when I say that, you know, sorry, is it offensive if I do this? And if your intent is to be welcoming and loving and inclusive and kind, it's going to take quite a nasty person to turn that around. So you shouldn't feel scared about saying, sorry, I don't quite understand this, because how ridiculous is it if there's however many people in the world and there's 75% of people

go, I don't understand what's going on? And they don't want to ask the question. And then we're never going to make any progress. Just on that, I think that's like true of everything that's going on with inclusivity at the minute. I think there's so many questions that we don't ask because we're so worried about offence or, you know, coming across in the wrong way. And I know, I think me and I have been really lucky that our friendship has meant that we can ask you those questions and we can try to understand it a bit more to, obviously, to try and help you first and foremost, but also to educate ourselves because it's a new world for us in a way, because you're the first person that I know closely who's going through something like this.

And I think that you're right, that extends to so many different areas. Like if you think about homosexuality, you know, how many people are in the, they're in the world, maybe of our parents' generation, who really began to understand it when their child came out or their child's friend because they understood that that person was a good person. it wasn't that person they'd read about in the 1980s son where it was demonised and evil and awful. You know, they met that person and actually, they're okay, you know, just because they fancy boys or girls or whatever it may be. And I think and hope that we'll be in a similar journey

with other elements of inclusivity where the more that it's prevalent in society, the more that we talk to each other about it, the more that it becomes normalized, the more that we're all happy with difference. And let's be honest, times are changing. So if you're not happy with get in the bin you put it beautifully out you often do you're like a poet really and i didn't know it um h i am just going to read out an email to you this is the kind of impact you've had um so it says hello kate and alex and i'm going to extend it to you as well h hope you both well i'm sure you've had several emails like this but as a trans person i just wanted to say a big thank you to you both as well as to H. When I first came out as trans, I stopped enjoying cricket entirely as it felt hostile,

unaccepting and unsafe. It was heartbreaking, as I spent years staying as far away from cricket as possible. It took a while, but in the few past years, seeing increasing support for us in the cricket community meant I have been able to come back to the sport that I love so much and now love again. There's still a lot of transphobia that we'll have to deal with, but H being able to come out and seeing all the support from the rest of the cricket community, of course included on the podcast has shown how far cricket has come. It's becoming a safer, more welcoming place for the trans community. And for the first time in a decade, I can say safely that cricket feels like home again.

Congratulations once again to H on finding out more about their amazing self and sharing that with the world. And well done you two for handling it so well. Thank you, Will. He, they. Oh, Will. Amazing. Will's brilliant. It's a great email.

And I'm so happy for Will. So happy. I mean, that means so much. Like, to get an email like that is incredible. And really, it really sticks with you. Because you and I were talking about this, Crossy, like, when I decided to share this with everybody, to be honest, it was quite selfish. Because it was, because it was my journey. It was my life.

I'd got to a point where everything else was a life limiter and walking around being he, him and getting called man, guy, all those bits and box. jobs, you know, they were really depressing me. So I wasn't thinking about the wills of this world when I did this. I was just thinking about my own well-being. But it's been so beautiful to see things like that because I would love to play a small role in helping cricket become more inclusive by by virtue of hopefully demonstrating that transgender people are welcome in cricket and people, gender non-conforming people are welcoming cricket. So H, is there another part to your journey or do you not know yet? Good question, Alexandra. I don't know is the short answer. I don't know what's next. I don't know what's to come. I know that it's taken me 30. I know

30. I don't look it. 30 years to get here 30 years. So I don't know. I might continue as exactly as I am for the rest of my life. But equally I might not. And it's how I feel. at the moment. And this is the point that I've got to that I'm happy to share and talk about. And it has been incredible. Gender dysphoria, right, which is like the feeling of looking yourself in the mirror and being like, that's not, that's not me. Actually, the feeling of looking yourself in the mirror and going, that's everyone. That's Christmas, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the week between Christmas. Very specifically feeling that because of your gender and feeling that, you know, your body's not right. That's called gender dysphoria.

The opposite of dysphoria is euphoria, you know, elation, proper delight. And I have had moments of that in the past two months or so. You know, you mentioned how on this journey there's been parts where you've really struggled with like depression and seeing yourself as, I guess, how society wants you to be seen rather than how you see yourself. Are you happy now? Do you feel like you're at a stage where you can say you're in a better place with it all? Yeah, getting there, I think.

I think I'd be lying if I said, you know, like you know, Crossy and Al, from both of your own struggles, it's not, it's not kind of a zero-sum game, I'm bad, I'm bad, I'm better, I'm better forever, I'm, you know, it's complex, isn't it? And I have been the lowest I've ever been in 2021, and I'm much, much, much, much, much better now. And I'm traveling in the right direction and I think that's the most important thing. So I'm definitely better than I was in Dunedin. Actually, just on that, I was thinking the other day, Crossie, I was in a lift in Dunedin. Al, we've talked about this obviously, but for the benefit of everybody basically had a breakdown in New Zealand about times. And I was getting a lift down to Crossie's hotel

room to share that breakdown with her, you know, like friends do. And I was crying in the lift a lot and a New Zealand player walked in and I was like oh no like floods of tears as this player walked in and I was like hey did they say anything to you they didn't say anything but I think I think their eyes said

hey we've all been there don't worry they're a nice team aren't they could you imagine if at that point they just turned to you and I'm like Dunedin's not that bad mate um we've got a fun story to tell. So you this summer got your ears pierced. Yes. Obviously, looking gorgeous with your hoops in today. Thank you. They're getting bigger. Well, if Sarah Glenn's got anything to do

with it, then they will grow three times the size by the time you get to Australia. Yeah. What I was thinking was, you know when the cricket ball gets misshapen sometimes? And they have to put it through that ball ring to check that it's still perfectly spherical. I think there's a gap in the market, and Glennie's your perfect person to have them. So your earrings are also the ball disc. It saves the umpire's a job. Just pop them through Glennie's ears.

Does it fit? Yes, it does. Crack on with the game. I think I'm speechless. Wouldn't put it past her, though. Like really weirdly, wouldn't put it past her. He's an absolute fashion queen. She can nail whatever she wants.

Yeah, she can. So the, she's obviously, she's actually a really good example, isn't she, of people being who society don't expect to see in circumstances. Like for young girls watching Sarah play cricket, we'll be like, wow, I can be glamorous and wear makeup and have my nails done and have my ears pierced and play cricket and boss it. I absolutely agree with that. I mean, you two, you two are similar examples in as much as, no, but you are, you are, you will laugh, you will laugh. But I do think that is really important that people like Glennie feel welcoming cricket, you know, because Glennie is, and you're talking real stereotypical, say, real proper, awful gender stereotypes, which we're all trying to, you know, fight against all the time. But Sarah is very stereotypically a girly girl, and yet it's fantastic at cricket.

It's amazing that those two things can happen, not, you know, of course those things can happen. It's brilliant that Glennie is herself and is the world's best leg spinner and doesn't need to compromise either of those things, you know, to enjoy being her. She's brill. Yeah, she is about it. So the air piercing story actually began. It was wild back, wasn't it? It was the start of the summer. I wasn't sure if you had your ears pierced and I messaged you to ask you and you said no. However, if I was to do a certain celebration on the cricket pitch when I got a wicket by touching my earlobes, you had to get your ears pierced. And then I took three for a head in there and forgot.

Completely forgot. You did. I thought I was very sad. I was very sad. You're just waiting for it. You were like, because I want to get my ears pierced. You can't imagine anything more tragic than I was in isolation at the time because housemate James, third reference to him, he had the COVIDs at the time back in August,

September, with August. So I was locked in watching the 100 and I was like, right, here's something to give my life some shape, she forgot. Three times. Oh God. I actually, as soon as I stepped off the pitch that day, I was like, oh, no, fucked it. But then we played Trent Rockets at Trent Bridge. I took another wicket.

I forgot again. And then I took a second wicket. And I remembered, and there's a little video of me touching my earlobes, which you immediately sent to me. In fact, you sent it to my sister, didn't you? Because she's the only one PMOA who. who's allowed a phone in the dugout. So I was like, text H now.

Did they see it? It was such a lovely moment. And it's a nice example, actually, of the encouragement that you have helped to give and other members of the England team as well. I'd always find excuses not to get my ears pissed, and it's been revolutionary since I had them. So, yeah, seeing you dismiss,

and it's going to really upset her, but seeing you dismiss Catherine Brunt, and then holding your earlobes and looking aloft at the sky, I thinking, right, that's it. We've got to do it now. So off we went to Canterbury, end of the series, Belly Bar. Belly Bar.

Other piercing places are available, but I wouldn't recommend them because Belly Bar was amazing. Life changing for me, to be honest. Do you know, honestly, you won't know this, and obviously you didn't see it, but there was just a moment when you came out and you had your ears pierced and you looked and felt like a different person.

like just the confidence that something so simple as having someone literally poke a hole through your earlobe can do to you, it was like, it was just so lovely to be there for that. And I did force you to do it through national television. But I'm really glad. I'm so glad that you did as well.

I really am very glad that you did. I mean, I've spent all of my money on earrings ever since. So, you know, a little bit let down there. But I guess that's only got myself to blame for that. that. Do you think working with such a diverse group of people with the England women's team

has helped you with your journey? Yes, absolutely massively. I think it's been the biggest shift, to be honest, is working, I think primarily, primarily before we get into anything else, working amongst a large group of women has been a very liberating and supportive experience. for me. You know, working in cricket prior to this job, I was a journalist, and, you know, in cricket, generally speaking, you move in circles of men, generally speaking, and hopefully, you know, that continues to change. But moving into a world where that wasn't the case, and there was this encouragement to express yourself, it's a very important part, as you both know, very important part is being yourself and, you know, being a team, but allowing yourself to

express yourself. And that's true of everybody in the team, staff and players, massively helpful. I can, I could name check almost everyone at different points for being incredibly supportive and saying amazing things and being there at high moments and low moments. It's a really special group of people. And I have so much to thank everyone in the England cricket team for players and staff. Oh, that's lovely. Hey, you're saying you need to give thanks to people, but there'll be a lot of people on the back of this or already have on the back of your Twitter and Instagram post

who want to thank you as well. So have you got any advice for anyone who was in your shoes and is struggling currently? I did think about this question. I think it's very, I think it's very difficult because I think everybody's journey is their own. So a lot of people have said to me like, oh, you're so brave. And actually, it didn't feel like bravery

because I've done all the hard work. I've done all the, I was about to swear, I've done all the bad bit. We beep it out, don't we? And then I got to a point where it felt like I had to do that. So I have advice in as much as it's going to sound pretty corny, but like you are loved, it will be difficult. There will be times when it feels impossible,

but it does not need to be impossible. are always people who love you. And I think that wherever your journey goes, because I think there'll be a lot of people, not necessarily listening, but there'll be a lot of people who have questions or thoughts about their own gender that they're never able to grapple with properly themselves, even before they get into thinking and talking about it, actually having that internal discussion, I think, can be impossible for some people. So I don't think there's a right or wrong about what happens next and if you say anything if you don't say anything just try and be kind to yourself understand that your own journey is unique and actually nobody knows your

your own mind better than you um you know nobody can tell you who you are or how you feel um or who you love or etc nobody can tell you those things so be kind to yourself know that you're loved be patient because it's difficult and just remember that honestly it will get better it will and it can get better and you know just it's it's it's it's it's almost meaningless because i think if you're in that situation it's so hard to do that but just just be kind to yourself and don't don't look and compare and try and compare to other people because it's impossible because you are you and you can only live your life on on the on the obviously i cannot relate to what you are going through specifically with the trans non-binary stuff but what you just said then about not understanding the

internal conversations in your own head i can fully relate to with mental health because i remember and just not understanding what i was going through to then how do you even begin telling a doctor or your parents or your friends what what's going on in your head when you don't understand that you So I'm sure a lot of people who aren't necessarily in your position but have got either mental health problems or going through their own things will fully relate to that. So like I guess, again, the journeys are all different. But I think talking to people as well, just opening yourself up to people to try and understand and compartmentalize, I guess, what you're going through could help as well. Which is the hardest thing to do, isn't it? We all know that.

It's the hardest thing to do. Yeah, completely. It's very difficult. I think you're spot on in that what I just said does relate to all sorts of people in all sorts of situations. And another thing I think I maybe should have said is, and this is also true of mental health, of so many internal psychological battles, is try and find a community. And that might be, you know, that might feel impossible, but there'll be people going through similar things. And with the internet as it is these days, said the oldest human ever, you know, there are, there are places everywhere where you can go and talk to people in a similar situation, going through something similar. And it can be anonymous, basically, you know, it doesn't need to be talking to your parents necessarily on day one.

It's, you know, there's definitely another piece of just very real advice is everyone should read the transgender issue by Sean Faye, which is a fantastic book, whether. you're struggling with any gender identity yourself or your gender non-conforming yourself or whether you're not. It's a brilliant book. It says everything that someone like me would like to say much better than someone like me would ever say it. And it's just a fantastic book. It's new in bookstores now. Page, before we get on to our emails and LBWs, which are going to be so much fun, have you got any advice that you would give your younger self? It's like a therapy session. I was asked this question. Yeah, get your ears, Pearce. What are you waiting for? I guess, you know, play up and down the ball, get your head forward, see off the new book, mate. It would be very similar to, it would be very similar to what I just said, really. I think that younger me had an awful lot hidden inside that they didn't want to even think about.

So I think I would encourage younger me to talk more, to share more and to not build up within them a searing ball of mess because it doesn't end well. But if you do, get yourself to Dunedin. Absolutely. Yeah, they can really, really recommend Dunedin, which is, by the way, a beautiful place. And if I could have chosen anywhere else to have a quasi-mental breakdown, then it would have been, it would always be done Eden for me.

Love the place. I'm actually really grateful that you had that when you had it, though, because you had so many people around you who were so worried about you at the time because everyone knew it was coming by you. That's a very typical breakdown story, isn't it, that everyone kind of knew before you. But you had so many people who just wanted to support you,

who were there for you who would do anything to make sure you were okay and that's that circumstance so as obviously I would wish that you didn't go through something like that but I'm really glad that you did it in Dunedon and we've always got those memories for good or for worse absolutely and just on that from the point of view of just maybe reflecting back for for your listeners obviously I'm not a professional athlete shock but I'm adjacent to it the one thing I really understood during that tour when I was having a very, very, very, very difficult time was the immense strength and fortitude of athletes. Because if I'd had to go out and play cricket at that point, which many of you have at similar times, across the men's and the women's game,

you know, feeling horrendous. And then having to go out there and be like, I'm going to bowl six balls in a good area. Like, you are all, when you do that and when you're all dealing with different bits and bobs, just absolute warriors. And I think, that, you know, when you see, I'll talk about the men's ashes very briefly, you saw the responses to, there was some horrible responses on Twitter and Facebook to Chris Silverwood being unable to be with the men's team for the fourth test because he's self-hystating. All of those people who, you know, said, oh, good news or whatever, go back to your words, Al, about getting the bin, like the lack of understanding there about what these people are going

through and trying to achieve and the work they're doing and the passion they pour into it, regardless of results and success, because you can't control that, but I had a really good insight there in New Zealand into what it means to go out there and deliver when whole world seems pointless and to go out and do your job. And yeah, I've got another newfound respect for professional athletes who really are an underestimated, an undervalued group of people, I would think.

Oh, well, H. you coming on and telling this journey and telling your story is no doubt going to impact so many people, Thank you so much for being super honest about it. And I'm sure you've educated a lot of people, including us. But your value on this podcast has never been for that story. It's because everyone loves H and who you are and what you bring to us and how much you keep us in check. But we wanted to have a bit of fun to finish if that's okay with you.

Yes, please. So we go upstairs weekly with an umpire. You are welcome to choose which umpire we go upstairs with. Really? I can choose. Can we go upstairs with a match referee? Whoever you want. Ranjan Madagali.

Always been my favour. There we go. Let's go upstairs with Ranjan. Is there a Christmas theme? Like, have they got a Christmas hat, a bit tinsel. Ranjan? Oh, big time. Yeah.

Yeah. Christmas hat, tinsle round his shoulders. There you go. We've got us into the spirit. I've got a lot of LBWs. We've got loads. We've got loads of LBWs. And we've got loads of LBW.

one that we need to start with crossy now this involves you h to which me and crossy only discovered when we came to stay with you for a few days last year oh no and we've been keeping it up our sleeves this whole time because we knew that you'd come back on the podcast but a certain thing that you do which is really bizarre is you don't use a microwave so if you were to heat food up you'd use the oven. True. Therefore, heating said mac and cheese, which should have taken 45 seconds, took 25 minutes. Very true.

Very true. This is a legacy of growing up without a microwave. Which is weird. Mad. Yeah, I just, we didn't have one in the home. And I still, my instinct, even now that I am lucky enough to have one, my instinct, I forget it. I forget it's there.

This happened the other day. I was doing peas with housemate James, fourth reference. And he was in charge of peas, big job. And he put them in a microwave. And I was like, what am I doing? And that works, apparently. I remember me and Al were like quite hungry. And you'd made this delicious mac and cheese the day before.

And then you were like, yep, tea will be ready in about 45 minutes. And we were like, why are you re-cooking it? What has happened here? It was madness. Yeah, I mean, there's no logic to it, is there? I can't defend myself. other than it's just, it's, it's kind of deep in my brain synapses. I just go heat, oven.

I don't even think microwave. Just go that way. Weird. Crazy. It's a little bit weird. It is a little bit weird. Hello both. I love the pod and I live in Cardiff and work in Bristol.

And the average time of that journey normally coincides nicely with an episode to keep me company. My two controversial contenders for LBWs, which are both mine, we get a lot of my friend, my girlfriend, my partner, etc. Number one, I eat the orange peel. I can either peel it off and eat it separately or eat it whole like an apple, whatever suits in a scenario. I'm sorry, imagine right, eating an orange, like tangerine,

and biting into it, it's going to be a juicy mess. That's deeply surprising. that is how sharp is this person's teeth yeah is this person a human or is it a fox that's emailed in yeah actually much love from the fox ah there we are yeah that makes sense to number lbw number two i warm up a bowl of shreddies or wheativics in the microwave for a minute before eating microwave not oven i wasn't even aware that most people don't do this until recently and i'm 28 i've since tried them without warming and frankly what is wrong with people that don't it tastes so much better with heat.

Honestly, I do question our listeners weekly. I'm going to defend the fox here because I used to have Wheatabix heated up, but I used to heat the milk up and then put the milk on the Wheatabix. I've never put the Wheatibix in the Microwave. But shreddies? Are you just upset with shreddies in general or the heating element? A bit of both really. He's also put shreddies with a capital S and Wheatabick.

They are a brand name. Hasn't got a capital W. So there's a bit of grammatical inconsistency here, which I'm struggling with. But the shreddies always remind me of the grandma that knitted them on the, on the advert. Remember? Not that I didn't like the grandma. This is getting a lot deeper than just having your shreddies hot. It is.

I don't eat shreddies. So I can't relate. My one question would be, and look, live and let live, whether you're trans or whether you're light hot shreddies. but my one question is how is that person unaware that that's a bit odd like when they grew up surely they're in situation where other people have serials

I just don't know how they've never there's no issue with them doing it but like the idea that at 28 they were like oh it's only me that does that oh I'm supposed to have cold milk you'd think that but with a lot of our listeners we've come to learn that I mean that's the beauty of this section the LBW section

if people learn a lot about themselves but there is some really fascinating things that people did not know weren't normal you get it let me in the microwave exactly hi all three doesn't say that says hi Bob a friend of mine here we go another friend told me they're cut up their apple to eat it this friend is not in nursery so is it weird or not thoughts are they friends with the guy who bites through the orange. Maybe. Sometimes I do

cut up an apple as a bit of a treat. It is a treat, isn't it? It's more of a dessert then than a snack. Often dip it in peanut butter. And then put it in the microwave with shreddies on top. They're delicious. I think that's

totally legitimate cutting up an apple. When I was a kid, my nan used to have an apple cora and it used to stab the apple through the middle so that you didn't eat the pit. Because you know they've got cyanide in them. They can kill you.

I often put them in your shreddies. That's why you don't live here anymore, Al. And so she used to call the apple, she'd jab it, take the core out, and then she'd peel the apple and then lace it with castor sugar and give it to me and my sister. So it was healthy. Delicious, genuinely delicious. Sound good.

This one's titled LBW, but I don't think it is one. It just says Jodie Comer reminds me of Cross. Rossi, some resemblance. I don't know why. And are you excited about the Harry Potter reunion? I mean, I can't see the resemblance. She's that one that's quite like small-faced, isn't she? Why are you pointing at your nose? Small-faced. Yeah, she's also Scouse. She's killing Eve, isn't she? She is killing Eve. Well, she's called? No, Eve's the The other character. Yeah, she's Villanelle.

Villanelle. Good, great knowledge. But yeah, I'm looking forward to the Harry Potter reunion. I'm so excited. Your dad might be able to read it to you. He'll put the subtitles on. Hey, are you looking forward to the Harry Potter reunion? Yeah, why not?

I mean, well, I don't know about excited. Like, if I end up watching it, I think I'll enjoy it, probably. It's weird that just sat there with a hat and a cape on saying you're not excited at the Harry Potter reunion. Yeah, but that's just because I'm, you know, cut me and I bleed Hogwarts, but I don't like the films, you know, I'm very much about the books. No, I, I, I, I, why not? Bring it on. They paid a big part on our childhood. H, we have taken far too much of your time up. Thank you so much. You, not only you were, you were a two-time guest, but you're a crowd fave. I honestly it is an honour to be invited on once let alone twice you two are brilliant I am very very grateful to you for the brilliance of your podcast and the number of people

you're bringing into cricket with your you know huge amounts of fun and just being great and also for your eternal support and love you're great thank you well you've been an inspiration to many, many, many people, H. So thank you. Right back at you, Al. Thank you so much. I'll see you in Australia. Ah, see you there.

Yes. Bye. Bye. So, amazing guest, Hatch, and thank you so much for sending, telling your story and your journey. We've kind of threatened to have them on for a couple of weeks now, the first time that we got them on it was very jovial very funny you saw the personality of the person that we spent so much time with and love and you know really consider one of

our close friends but i think for them to come on and tell their journey so openly and so honestly and the ups and downs of everything that they've been through it's just been it was fascinating to listen to and i know the story so i'd you know imagine what everyone else is thinking right now so we would love your feedback we have got a bone to pick with you guys though haven't we? Mm-hmm. Now we went through our emails with H and it's amazing.

You're sending us some lovely emails saying how amazing we are and I love the ego boost but... We need some questions. We do. We need to... You know, this podcast is based around your questions.

I'd be happy to put 45 minutes out about people sending a love but it's probably not a great listen. But we do genuinely read every single one of them. we were joking last week when we said that Henry doesn't send them on he does we just don't read all of them out we don't read all of them out I sometimes don't read them

but crossy you'd be doing it always been honest to what we like about you are but please send us some questions funny serious joking whatever we want cricket questions we want your questions we want your questions hashtag get your questions in we wish you were very

Happy New Year. I was going to say Merry Christmas then, but we've done that one. And a happy new year. Yep. Please email us on No Bowlspodcast at BBC.co.com.com.com.com.com. It's so good. They've said it twice. I never really quite got the hang of that, did we? No, we didn't. Next time you hear us, we'll both be in Australia and fingers crossed. we go over there. And not through it in, we'll be on the beach.

See ya. Bye! We will be on the beach. And cross strikes in the first over. It's what England we're looking for. Partly falls. Down the track comes scoring. This time she connects.

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