Test Match Special - No Balls: The Finch Who Stole Christmas

Episode Date: December 11, 2025

Kate Cross & Alex Hartley catch up with Australia World Cup winning captain Aaron Finch. He gives them his thoughts on England's Ashes hopes down under, as well as trying to build a culture during his time as Australia's white-ball captain and (obviously) what's the biggest animal he could catch? All that, plus how he's settling into life as a pundit since retirement.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. This month in football, everything is up for grabs. The Premier League battles intensify, the Champions League reaches its crucial turning point, and the World Cup draw sets the stage for the biggest tournament on earth. Football Daily from the BBC brings you sharp analysis, instant reaction, expert insight, and the stories driving the game on and off the pitch. Your Essential Football Podcast Delivered every day.

Listen to Football Daily on Spotify to Football Daily on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Al, we've got to issue a swear warning because you are an absolute potty mouth. Not another one. And you need to remember that your grandma listens to this. She does. She also abuses me on social media.

But don't worry, we beep it out. See, your kids can listen. And Grandma Jean. First ball, castled. Now I'm celebrating for crossing. That one was for crossing. That was a beautiful delivering. The wobble ball again from Kate Cross,

and that is such an important wicket. Kate Cross in for the hat-trick ball. Oh, it's so wide. Hello, and welcome back to No Balls of Cricket Podcast. With me, Kate Cross, and you, Alex Hartley. Hello. Hello, hello from different sides of the world. Again, time zones are killing us

I know they are and I can only say thank you for getting up so early this morning So early it was just normal work time for people Who go to a 9 to 5 job Yeah but still you don't have a 9 to 5 Crossy I have to say first and foremost Before we get into our cricket chat and everything else

I am so proud of you You've put your bloody Christmas tree up Yes, it's up And I can't really Then if you can quite see it You always slag my Christmas tree off And so it looks really skinny

That is not a skinny Christmas tree Look at that That's good I think you've changed it It's the same tree Is it? Well it looks alright Same tree

Because I nearly fell out at the loft Getting it out of my own Gosh you did The Christmas buildup crossy You've not had it for such a long time How is it? It feels really nice actually got back from Dubai last Monday

and then it now feels like Christmas mode is on I put the tree up, put the decorations out I'm going to go for a little mulled wine with the Lank's girls, we've got the Christmas party on Wednesday just feels like something I've not done for years so you lose your contract, you gain a Christmas, lovely. You gain a life, you gain a life, yeah, gain a life, yeah. How are you? You're probably not feeling very Christmasy, are you?

No, I couldn't feel, less christmassy if i tried it's really weird um like the sun's out it's like go to the beach obviously at work but we've had days off um and i see all everyone at home be like christmas markets and i'm like there's not i've not seen a single christmas jumper or a christmas hat oh i feel like there's something very un-christmassy about having to put factor 50 on every day yeah very very on Christmas. It does feel illegal and luckily we've got like a lovely little Christmas day planned but it ain't going to feel like Christmas day. It feels like we're just going to be having a four-course meal and a glass of wine. Yeah, just being set outside having a bit of

turkey. Yeah. No, we're not having turkey. We're having salami and cheeses. Then we're having like crab pasta and our salts is cooking. But surely if you don't feel Christmassy, at least make it the food feel Christmassy. I'm going to do a secret. Hunter. Oh, I've not bought mine. It's just reminding me. Al, we've got a guest, but before we go into that, I've got a really, I just have to tell you about Dubai.

I have to tell you about the boat that I went on. Yes, you do. Yeah, the sevens obviously was fun, like he said. But you know me, you know, I hate the sea. I hate boats. It's just not, it's not me. I didn't grow up in that kind of world. And I went on this sail GP boat with the GB sailing team.

Oh my God. It was one of the best experiences of my life. Except when I had to do the safety training and I had to learn how to breathe underwater because if the boat capsized, I needed to learn to cut myself free from the boat so I didn't die. And I had to have like a snorkele mask

that was like, you breathe into that. Couldn't do it. Panic attack central? Yeah, because I don't know if, well, snorkels out there are people who do a bit of deep sea diving. They'll know that you hear yourself breathe. and I also had this awful chest infection which didn't help so I couldn't breathe naturally anyway

but you hear yourself breathe so all I could hear was and then I was going I'm panicking I'm panicking and then I'm trying to like get out but then there's these two men holding me under the water and I was going this is the worst day of my life this is the first half an hour as well I'm in the sea I was like what is going on Jimmy's just laughing at me he gets in the water and does it straight away because obviously he's just good at everything

so he knows how to breathe underwater. Oh my God. Other than that, best experience from my life, the lads were amazing. You sent me a picture of you, be like, I've just had to breathe underwater. And then like two hours later, you're like, oh, my God, I want to do it again.

It was so, so, so good. Do you know when you get kids come to your training sessions and it's like a day out with whoever, none of the superchards of Lancashire, and you kind of feel like, I think really going to enjoy this. Like, I'm just going about my day. I cannot tell you how,

well we were looked after by this team. It was like, they couldn't do enough for us. And I was like, hang on, you guys are two days away from a really important race, like the championship raves. And we're just faffing about, trying to breathe underwater, and then not passing our safety checks and just getting thrown onto this boat. And then getting just drive it. You drive a boat?

You do drive a boat. No, you sail a boat. It had a wheel, though. Yeah. Do you know what? For once in my life, I feel more clever than you. Yeah, okay. Good.

Yeah, amazing. It was so good. I just had to tell people because I know that I'll forget about it and then we'll do one in mid-December and forget about it. But yeah, it was so, so, so cool. So thank you so much to the SAIL GP team because it was a great, great, great day. Oh, right.

I have to ask before we go into Finchie. How are you? Yeah, I'm okay, thank you. Feeling Christmassy, like I said. It's not been that cold, so I'm okay. I'm okay. It's just miserable and dark, isn't it? You forget every year.

It's like it surprises us every year. Yeah. Yeah, you're coping with the dark because you normally have your sad lamp Yeah, it's not sad lamp's not come out Yeah, I feel like that's a January issue Yeah, yeah January February issue

But no, so good, far so far, so good, how are you? Really well, really well I, there are parts on tour that I've really struggled with, don't get me wrong You know, we spoke the other day didn't we, I had a little catch-up And I was like, I'm just lonely And you were like, you're fine, you do any period

I was like, I think so. I love our catch-ups at the minute because they just seem to happen at 3 a.m. for you. So I'll be like, Alex Hartley's FaceTiming me. And I'll look at that time and I'm like, it's dark outside. Which, to be fair, could be mid-afternoon here. But I'm like, hmm, it must be late. I know.

And the other day I got in and I was like, I really need to catch up with you. So we had a chat for like literally an hour and a half, two hours. And you were like, what time is it? I was like, 3.30? You were like, go to bed. Go to bed. It was the three days out from the test match. And I was like, go to bed.

Other than the occasional bout of loneliness, I am loving it. I really am. I was just feeling sorry for myself that day. I think I woke up the next day and thought, get a grip, you're in Australia covering in ashes. Yeah, there was always time, but you're still allowed to feel how you feel. It's true.

It's true. But no, I'm very good, thank you. Good, good. Well, while we're talking about goodness, let us introduce our guest. That was a good segment. stupidly at 2-0 Down in the Ashes and we decided to bring an Australian legend

onto the podcast. Welcome, Aaron Finch. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for having me, guys. That's a nice time to be on, I'll be honest. Yeah, it feels like a bad time for us to have you on, actually. Yeah, yeah. What we actually need now, Finch is my mum, because when you first met her in Sri Lanka,

she googled who you were, was like, oh, you're good at cricket. No, she's very sweet. And that's all we'll leave there with my mum and that night out. We won't say anything else. Seems that there's a bit of a story there. Yeah, yeah, Mom was talking about it on the podcast. Okay, okay.

Protect Julia all across. Mom had had a few. She had, she had. How are you, Vinci? You must be a little bit happier than we are. Yeah, very good. I think at 2-0 up, the Aussies have obviously started very well. But I think both teams, if they're being honest with themselves,

there's plenty to work on, particularly Australia. I mean, they were well behind the game in the first test match. They pulled it out through a brilliant spell from Scott Bowling, then an unbelievable knock from Travis Head. And then second test, I think right throughout, I think England's tactics, they didn't quite get it right with the ball. And that happens every now and then. But overall, I think Australia would be pretty comfortable at the moment,

knowing they just need one more win out of three to retain the ashes or win them as well. Well, you've only commented on the first two, so hopefully we'll win the last three, so, you know? Yeah, you know what? I've already got FOMO about missing out of the last three test with the Big Bash starting. I'll slot into that for Channel 7.

So it was great fun on the first two Ashes test. So, I mean, the other night when Joffra was ramping it up and Punder, he got well and truly into it. I was sitting beside him in the commentary box and he kept nudging me to... By the way, punter equals Ricky Ponting, champion. And he kept nudging me to pick up. up the mic and I just kept sitting back. I was like, mate, this is all you keep going. It was brilliant. Obviously for me it's a bit different because I'm in very, very, very, very

Miss Royal England at the minute and having set my alarm at 4.30 if I want to watch England get bowled out. It feels to me like this isn't a normal ashes. It doesn't feel like I can't put my finger on. It just doesn't feel like it's the ashes that you wait for every winter to look forward to. It feels like there's something missing from it. I know England haven't been great and it's too, no, and that is, that's normal. Don't get me wrong, I know that that is normal. But yeah, I can't put my finger on it, but it just doesn't feel like the hype's there as much. It does over here.

From previous series, there hasn't been any trash talk from players. It's all been from past players and media. So it hasn't had that real spicy edge to it in this first couple of test matches until like 15 or 20 runs to get on Sunday night when Joffra comes steaming and Steve Smith decided to take him on. I reckon that that might be the part that's missing because the first test was a fascinating game 170 all out, 1 30 all out

1 50, 60 and then the Travis Head Show it's been so tight without being tied if that makes any kind of sense. Yeah, I don't know what it is. I also don't know whether it's because it's 5 in the morning. Are you getting up to watch it? Well, I missed the first, they didn't tell us the time that it was starting. They told us 4.30 and then it started at 420

so I missed Zach Crowley getting out both innings. No, what did you make of that though, Finchie when Joff suddenly turned up the other day and it was like you obviously let punter just trash talk in the commentary box. But like, where was that in the first innings? Yeah, I reckon that there must be a little bit more to his injury than what it first looked like. I mean, to not be able to do it or not do it for pretty much the first two tests, the Perth test, all the conditions were in the bowlers favour. So probably everyone was able to bowl within themselves and still get enough out of the surface.

But then last test, when it was flat and they had number six, well, six down, sorry, and they'd stark and ball and in. But just running to do it, I would have been disappointed if I was in that change room as well. But, I mean, I was talking to some guys who have had elbow injuries and they said there's not many overs that you can bowl at 100% because it just, it's a risk of breaking every single time. So maybe the moment wasn't when there was 20 runs to get in the dark. Maybe it was when Scott Bowlin walks into the crease and you go, right, there is a test match to win here.

I missed all of that, actually. I slept through that bit. But I loved the Steve Smith quote where he just called him champion. It's such an Aussie thing to do, isn't it, champion? Yeah, not as bad as champing someone, but at least he went with the full champion and not just champ. That's a bit more respectful. Yeah, the champion's a bit more respectful.

Nice. Did Ricky Ponting championed him in the commentary box as well by next to you, didn't they? Yeah, I think it was more replying to Steve Smith or reiterating what Steve Smith had said. But I thought that he was starting to froth from the mouth and he was about to strap the pads on and run out of the commentary box. He was right up for it, Panay.

It was great being a part of that in the commentary box, more so than out in the middle. I could guarantee that. I was going to say, how have you found the cons? I love it. I love it. I think towards the end of my playing career, I started to not dread turning up and playing,

but there was sort of, there was days when you'd look out the window and you go, chees, wouldn't mind a bit of rain today. Oh, tough in Australia that. Yeah, I know. And in Big Bash, I played a stadium that's under a roof. So, yeah, I was barking up the wrong tree there. But commentary, like I turn up to, what have I done?

three IPLs, two World Cups, a women's World Cup, Champions Trophy, a couple of Aussie summers now. So I've done quite a lot in the last three years, and I love every game. Every game I turn up to do, I mean, it's so much fun, whether it's an IPL game up in Damashala or down in Chennai or a test match at Adelaide Oval under lights last year against India. It was amazing. So each game is so good.

And to get the chance to do my first Women's World Cup a couple months ago in Sri Lanka in India. That was incredible. Some good games you had there as well. Yeah, there was a few wet ones as well. I can say, like playing in Colombo in the middle of a monsoon, that was a bit of a dampener, pardon the pun. But, I mean, there was one game, I think there was 10 overs, and then the umpires and curators basically said,

look, this is going to keep coming until we went home. So it was unfortunate, but it was still great to be a part of. I remember messaging about the Women's World Cup. I was like, do you fancy it? You were like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was like, perfect, I'll see you. And then our schedules were the complete opposite. and I didn't see it at all, and we were like, great.

Set for a night out with Julia, by the sound of it. Yeah, we are warm. Yeah, we did. That was funny. I'm not sure. I can't remember what the little strip was in Colombo, but that got the better of us. It did. Finchie, just going back to the Ashes for a sec.

So you have obviously been a huge part of the Australian dressing room for many years. Can you take us into that in the build-up to an Ashes? And you see Stuart Broad and Finney and all. all of our ex-players saying that this is our best chance of winning since 1011. As an Australian, are you laughing at that or are you going, oh, there's something that we don't know here that might happen and there is actually going to be a really good Ashes series about to happen? I reckon it was, if you're in the dressing room,

and I've chatted to a lot of the players about it, there was some merit when they justified why they said it. And when you look at the, I guess, the inexperience compared to some of the other great Australian teams, that have played in Asch's series at home that have been really settled for a long time. This one had quite a few moving parts at the top with unknown opener a couple months out.

Manus was he going to be back in the side at number three? So they're two key pillars of your side right there that we're a bit unknown. So I understand where they were coming from. But one thing that the Australian players have done over the last couple of years and it goes back to the 2021 T20 World Cup that we won. And I didn't realize that this happened,

but, well, not at the time. But after we won it, we were all sitting around in a circle having a beer, and Adam Zampa pulled out a Manila folder that had newspaper clippings and quotes from everybody who had been bagging us in the lead up to it and saying how rubbish were. And he went through and read out some key quotes from each and every person around, whether they are Australian international commentators or pundits. He kept the receipts, so to speak.

So there's a little bit of that as well that the guys have got very long memories. Surely someone's doing that for this Ashes series because you're already 2-0 up and that would be great when you win the ashes, if you win the ashes, sit on the outfield at Sydney and be like, in T-shirts.

Yeah, remember when you're broad said, what are the T-shirts that have been printed up? They just, hasn't Brody got one that's saying is it a bloke or something? Oh, that was from back when he was playing that was quite funny it's the receipts though isn't it he's still got him and i the amount of response i had from an insta story i put up the other night which was broadie holding a tray of beers and a bottle of champagne that that he bought for all the channel seven

staff and and and channel seven commentators and staff we all we all had a drink at the end and i just tweeted sorry instagram and said stewarty's a good bloke and the amount of people that replied saying we now love him just just listen to his commentary and how he articulates the ashes and what it means to him and commentating day to day. They just love him. So I'm glad that the Aussie fans and the public have been able to see Stuart in a different light compared to when he was a villain for so many years.

I was going to say, did you know him before you started commenting really? And like, is it, he is a different bloke. On the field, he is a bit of a . And off the field, he's great. Yeah, I only knew him to play against. I hadn't had a huge amount to do with him. Played against him a little bit in T20 and one day cricket. He was out here playing Big Bash a few years ago.

But overall, I hadn't had a huge amount. I knew a lot of people that were really good friends with him and one of his great mates, Harry Gurney. I'd spend a lot of time with him. So you feel like you know somebody. Great pubs. Yeah, great pubs. You feel like you know somebody but without actually knowing them through other people.

So it's, yeah. but I don't think it's been a surprise to anyone how good Stuart's been on commentary and how likably is to the public. Well, we're on it. Do you want to just show everyone what you wear in, Finchie? Do you want to show the hat? Just for anyone, this is a podcast.

So Finchie's hat is a picture of Johnny Birstow wandering out of his crease and it just says MCC law 20.1. 20.1.2. 0.2, yeah, and then the bales. So nice. Very, very good. Nice. I actually think it's one of the best bits of merch

But there's also been a T-shirt made up Saying it was Bazzie's quote from the last test Saying England over-prepared for the test flag Oh, we need to talk about that Is that a thing? Can you over-prepare? Yeah, you can over-prepare And I think

Depends on what type of player you are I know for me personally I was okay going into a tour or something slightly underdone Because especially in the white ball you play games back to back to back so you can get on a roll really quick. I know some bowlers need to bowl a lot of overs. Josh Hazelwood, he's somebody who needs to bowl for two or three games

before he feels good to go for a test match. And I was asking Brody about it. And he said, in his perfect world, he would play two champo games, have a rest, play a champo, then test match. So it was almost two games, then have a break to freshen up and then go two again. So he said Jimmy was the opposite. He would want to play two games and have a rest. play one game, have a rest, and then make sure he was fresh.

So it's so personal. And you can definitely overdo nets. Absolutely. I think they said they had five net sessions leading in and they were trying to make it underlies. The only thing that I'd question was going in with four guys that hadn't played a pink ball game. I thought with the game in Canberra, whether it was Jamie Smith, who hadn't kept

underlights before, you can do all the catching. But your heart rate's not up. There's no emotion. There's no repercussions of. of mistakes. So even if he went down to that, the Lions game and said, you know, I'm just here, I'm here to keep for two hours under lights in the last session and then back to you guys.

And it's purely selfish, but everybody is out there with an aim to win the ashes, not a Lions game. So it wasn't a first class game. So whether it was just something like that, just adjusting the schedule slightly, maybe, but again, it's hard to criticize. the preparation until the series is over. Yeah. If they come back and win three, two, everyone says,

this is great preparation, great planning, because they've been fresh at the end of the series. Whereas if they lose four or five nil, then you go, well, they're undercooked. Or if they win the last two, you say you might have underdone it because you're starting to hit your straps now. So I think you can't sit down and honestly criticize

until the end of the series. But I think with what Brendan said, no matter if that's what you believe if you believe that you've over-prepared and had too many net sessions surely you don't come out and say it surely that's something that just stays in the dressing room because obviously the perception of this team at the minute

is just it's not a very good one so is he trying to protect the players do you think so that everyone looks at him and goes oh baby Brendan's the problem here rather than Jamie Smith not scoring runs or whatever it is well I think that throughout the series Baz has always been very protective of his players. And you listen to a lot of Stokes' interviews.

He takes a lot of the heat himself without... I think he takes too much. He carries a huge load there. And that is a part of protecting his team, protecting their team, whereas they say, right, we'll shield you guys from everything, but you need to come along for the ride. And the reality is there just hasn't been enough contributors

so far in the series. I mean, Duck it. He's missed out a couple. Crawley looked good in the second test, yeah, first innings. Hope he looked good in the first test match. He played nice. He just didn't go on and didn't go on and cash in on good starts. Harry Brooke, a couple of starts.

But he's going to play the same. I'd be surprised if he doesn't double down again and go even harder in the next test match. But then get 200. Straters look good. Yeah, exactly right. Rudy, great 100 and 3.5. failure. So that's just,

test cricket in Australia is hard as everybody's finding out. When you come over here full of beans ready to go and you're not at your absolute straps first up, you got your tail between your legs pretty quick. I think this is what I'm kind of alluding to

though, because that's not a surprise. Test cricket in Australia is always hard. It's not just going to become easy. And I think we just went over there going, oh, we're going to win. And actually, I don't think we had enough behind us. Like for me, and we've had success in Australia, it's because we've scored big runs. I think back to Alistair Cook and that series where he scored 700 runs or whatever it was.

And I just don't, I didn't see other than Root that anyone will do that. Yeah, I think you can play like that when the ball doesn't bounce. Yeah, you can play that on day two at the Oval, where the ball bounces knee high and you can smack the ball on the up because there's no tricks in the wicket. you've been presented with two of the most challenging wickets in the world and two of the biggest contrasting wickets to what you used to in Perth, which everyone agreed, that was extreme bounce, even for Australians. Then you go to the gabber with a pink ball and you get similar results.

So it's so foreign. So I understand coming over here being confident. And whether it's real or whether it's fake, only they will know inside the dressing room. Because you know, you can sense it pretty quick. And the reality is that not many of the players get to do interviews, so you don't get to see many of them. You talk to.

They all got banned because they all say stupid things. Well, in the media, you get to hear Stokes route, occasionally Zach Crawley, who's quite good with his time, even during test matches. So apart from that, you don't know what other people are thinking because you just don't get access to it. This month in football, everything is up for grabs. The Premier League battles intensify, the Champions League reaches its crucial turning point, and the World Cup draw sets the stage for the biggest tournament on earth.

Football Daily from the BBC brings you sharp analysis, instant reaction, expert insight, and the stories driving the game on and off the pitch. Your essential football podcast, deliver. every day. Listen to Football Daily on Spotify, to Football Daily on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, this is Matt Chawley's urgent questions, your daily dose of political mayhem from the heart of Westminster. Order, order. I call Matt Chawley. I'm a supporter of flags. It turns out time is finite. Government doesn't want to be involved in this. I did not think the candidates are frivolous. Actually, urgent questions.

Subscribe to the podcast and you'll get the best bits every day from around 5 o'clock. Listen on BBC Sounds. So how do you see the rest of the series going Finchie before we talk about what you've got next? Are you going to win 5-0? Cummins back, lying back in the side. No wood. No wood. It's hard to see how England can bowl Australia out a couple of times.

Manus Lover Shane looks in really good. could touch. Steve Smith has got the bit between the teeth at the moment. Weatherald's starting to shape up really nicely. He got a beauty in the first innings in Perth, knocked him over for a duck, but he's played well since then. So I reckon I'm going to go four-one. I think the way that England play, the way that England play, when they get it right, they win.

Like Harry Brook gets it right for two sessions. Generally, that buys you so much time at the back end of the game to bowl teams out. So I think that, well, the other thing we didn't talk about is England have won the toss and had the best of the conditions on both occasions as well and haven't really made the most of it. And they've surprised us by batting. We were like, oh, well, they've bowled because the last three years in the buildup to the ashes.

We've bowled every time we've won the toss. And everyone's like, oh, they're being sensible. Wait and see how flat it is now and then win the toss and bowl. If you get to Adelaide, it's going to be flat. Everyone is saying our best chance is Adelaide. So I feel like if we can win in Adelaide and then go into the boxing day test at 2-1, suddenly the series feels like a series rather than just a standard Ashes series where we lose 5-0. Yeah.

What's the temperature in the UK with it all at the moment? It's actually not been that cold. It's like 14 degrees yesterday. No, I'm talking about the press, your Muppet. Oh, I'll say, yeah, we're not doing any practice outdoors. Not good, not good. But then I think I'm seeing everything from people that are in Australia. I don't think I'm seeing much from people that are over here.

There's not much chat about it other than from NAS or BBC or whoever else is out there. Yeah. Yeah, fair. Just avoid in it. Finci, we always ask our fans to fire some questions over for whoever's coming on. And we've been sent a few. How tall are you in inches, please? That's from Shirani.

How tall in inches? I'm 5'9 Whatever that is in inches Why do you need to know that Starani do the Googling What's 12 times 5 Oh mate you're asking the wrong person Wait 100 and

12 24 36 69 inches What Yeah 5 foot 9 there you go And I know that didn't come off the top of your head Jack just said 69 inches someone else a chai and memes has asked what's the story behind jersey number five good question uh growing up one of my favorite afl player named gary ablett

played for jolong it through the late 80s and 90s he was my favorite player he wore number five and that was it nice that was it you're like perfect that's going to be me um we've got a standard question which is on this podcast which uh all the Australians have answered. But if we were going to fire an animal out of a cannon at you, what's the biggest size animal you could catch? What's the biggest size animal, like out of a cannon? How close am I?

You can decide. Yeah, if we can send it high or we can send it flat, it's up to you. I don't send like a, I'm going to say a wombat. I reckon that would be like a good size to like grab onto. if it come with some height, I reckon it be a good size that I could wrestle onto it. That's exactly what Elise Perry said. She actually said, I reckon if you barrel a wand bat at me, I'll give it a crack. What is it like to play against England?

That's from JCSS. That was great to play against England. I was almost like we played against two very different England teams throughout my career. the first probably five or six years they were a team that didn't quite get everything right in white ball cricket and we had a dominant side we were a really experienced side so so we had our fun with england during that period and then from 2018 onwards they returned serve with with some ammo with some tax as well they they humped us for for quite a while there from probably 2018 onwards, I think. We got the better of them during the 2019 World Cup in the group game, then they destroyed us in the semi-final. They were probably slightly ahead of the curve with the way

that Roy and Bearstow went so hard at the top, and the Hales was at three, and then it was Root Morgan, Butler. That was pretty formidable, particularly on English wickets that were flat or Australian one-day wickets, which were flat. So they had the better of us in the back half of my career, unfortunately. Am I right in thinking you're captained at that point?

Yeah, I captained, yeah, throughout the second. A little bit in the early stages, 2014 to 16, I captained the T20 side. And then 2018 onwards, I kept them to two white ball sides. And they were incredibly hard to beat anywhere. just how aggressive they were in all crunch situations. They didn't take a backward step, which they used to almost play like they feared losing in the first part of my career.

And then the back half, they just swung from the hip, a bit like they're doing now in test cricket on the up. What was that like then? So obviously Morgs kind of changed the face of whiteball cricket in England. Well, possibly how it was viewed around the world. But as a captain of a country, did you have to look at that and think, geez, we need to change something here? Or were you going to just trust our processes?

We know, like, we can beat them on our day. Well, you look at it both ways. Initially, you think, do we have the right cattle? And then is it good enough to stand up if they have a day out? And then you've probably, the answer's probably no most of the time. We probably had a sign. And often during that, period, because we had such a strong test team for a long time, the same sort of three, four,

five bowlers were playing all formats of the game. So inevitably, in an ODI series, that they need a rest as well. So then you'd have a bit of a younger attack. So you almost, you felt a little bit exposed against a really hardened dominant team against a bowling attack that was still finding and they're feeding international cricket. So then you try and start tinkering around with your side. Do you try and match them? Do you go fight fire with fire? Or do you just think of other ways and come up with other ways to do it?

So it's probably a combination of all of it, crossy, to be fair, that you can't beat other people at their own game generally. You have to play to your strengths, but you might just need to tweak it slightly to continually try and stay ahead of the opposition. Yeah, which is kind of what we saw in 23. It's quite hard as a captain to sort of like go, right, a team's playing that way.

I know we can, but I've got to pave my own way and my own team. No, it's not difficult. What's difficult is working backwards from a World Cup. So that's what you always do. So for me, I took over in 2018 after sandpaper happened in South Africa. So that was a pretty quick process to the 2019 World Cup. So there wasn't a huge amount of planning that you could do. And then straight from there, we worked back from the 2023 World Cup.

And it was like, what do we need to do at each step and what players do we need to have ready to go for the 2023? That might mean we identify that there's a player that we know can have an impact in a World Cup, but he still hasn't played international cricket. So do you expose him against the best team in the world or do you expose him against a side where he might have a bit of a softer entry into international cricket? And that's the art of coaching more so than captaincy. I wasn't a selector.

I would obviously have my opinion, but I didn't get a selection vote. So that's where it all starts to make sense from a coaching point of view and a management side where they really back their talent ID and their planning. And of course you've got injuries and players get exposed a bit early or a bit later than what they would have liked. But all in all, I mean, I then pulled the pin 12 months out from the 20-23 World Cup and I thought that that was the right time. I couldn't see myself making that World Cup.

And I thought that was 12 months was still enough time for Travis Head to come in and open the batting enough with Davy Warner in one-day cricket. And I felt it was still long enough for Pat Cummins to take over the one-day side as well because it's a different skill set as a captain compared to captaining tests I guess it's a bit more thinking on your feet but yeah I thought that 12 months was still long enough with the detailed planning that had gone on

particularly from Andrew McDonald Justin Langer at the start of that four year cycle and then Andrew McDonald right through to the World Cup I feel like England have had this planning for three years as well and that's not going that well, so maybe we need to rethink. Finchie, we said we'd only keep you for 20 minutes, so we'll get to let you go in a second. Yeah, it's always, always half an hour. And you're finished with seven on the test matches now, and you're on, what, Big Bash?

Yeah, Big Bash, so that kicks off Sunday night over in Perth. So I'm pretty flat out throughout December, January with Big Bash, and then straight from there to T20 World Cup, India and Sri Lanka. And then there's IPL right through to the end of May or into June. And then there's the 100 after that, which I'm hoping to be a part of, which would be nice. Before you go, can I just ask one question about Stuart Broad and David Warner and the weird Instagram reels that I'm seeing at the minute where they've like, collabed with Australia

to do these adverts? What is going on there? they must have very deep pockets tourism Australia I was thinking that but they're quite funny when I first saw them I thought it was a and someone had done them through AI or something but then Brody walked into the commentary box five minutes after I'd seen it and I said Brody what is going on here he goes they're actually quite fun to film yeah so it's good so it's not AI

Finci thank you so much don't get too much Ashes Farmer and enjoy the big bash pleasure guys Thanks, Finchie. Thank you, mate. No worries at all. Any time. I, Crossy, could speak to Finchie about cricket forever. I feel like we kind of got into the really good stuff towards the end there.

Like, he can talk about England being crap all day, can't he? But then, like, the nuances of how he captained. Like, I feel like there's a whole other episode to go out there. There actually is. And how he was talking about the planning and stuff. Like, that's the stuff that people don't see, isn't it? It's the bits behind the same. seeing that where he's working with,

whoever it is, the selectors and the coaches to make a group of players good enough to win a World Cup and that's the fascinating bit. But I feel like we just touched on it and then we're like, okay, bye, enjoy the big match. I know, it's like, oh, well, we said 20 minutes, we've done half an hour, we've touched on loads of things. I thought it was interesting that he said Australia, you know,

like it's 4-1, if not 5-0. It's really hard for them to come back. Yeah, and that's, I don't know if I got my word right, but I feel like we as English fans and ex-players have built this up to be like, we'll compete in this series, having forgotten. And it's similar for us in January as well with the women's ashes. You just forget how hard Australia are to be on their own soil. And then we've just magically forgotten that because we've got Ben Stokes and Brendan McCullum

and now we're in it and we're going, oh, it's really hard. I thought it was really good and for the first time ever. Stokes actually came out and was really honest with the press and that's something that everyone went Oh, we've been waiting for that But the quote of no weak men in my dressing room I get why he said it And it's a really tough place to play

But it sets a bad message to whoever he's going to drop for Adelaide Yeah Or it's an honest message that you need to hear sometimes I feel like That was kind of what I think she was saying like Baz and Ben protect this team at all cost but that only works if they're doing what they need to do on the pitch

and if people aren't standing up to that pressure or making the right decisions under pressure then there has to be some honest truths there like you can't just go oh we think you're really good Harry Brooke but you know if you keep making you know if you keep trying to ramp a seema in the sixth over and getting stumped then you know

someone has to have that conversation but then like you saw let's let's just say Ollie Pope is dropped for the next test. Penn Stocks has basically come out and told the press he's weak before he's spoken to said player. No, I don't think that's. I think he's saying like the mentality

of the players needs to be stronger under pressure. I don't think he's going, you're weak, I'm dropping you. I don't know. I don't know. It'd be interesting to see what happens with the media when that all comes out if there are any changes.

the media will write what they want to write because they always do because I've even seen this week that the players have gone to Nusa haven't they? They had this phase where they've had the opportunity to take a break

and they obviously had that after Perth because of the way the game went. I even saw Darren Lehman tweeted saying leave them alone that this break is always planned into the Ashes schedule they're not going to then suddenly again go back into the next because they've lost 2-0

so actually just judged them at the end a bit like what Finchie was saying like judge them at the end Yeah, no, I totally agree Totally totally agree One of the best things to come out this week Crossy has been the Ashes Quote's Hall of Fame Which would you like me to read a few of them?

Okay, so I've got some from 2019 God gives Australians the physical attributes I can remember who said that 2021, there are positives to come out of this not sure about that 2020, COVID has written off a Void series. 2025, the Bondi to Kudji Cultural Advantage. Then 2025 on the bingo card.

If anything, we train too hard. Yeah. It's a funny one, isn't it? Because when you're in that dressing room, they probably did think, like, we worked so hard for this, and the result hasn't gone the way we've wanted it to. But when you're out of that dressing room, quotes like that, excuse me, just look so bad.

I know, I know. Anyway, there's time to bounce back, Crossie. I do. I'm a real pessimist, aren't I? I'm like a cup half full kind of person. And I genuinely think Adelaide, they could turn it around. Like, I think they're the kind of team. I don't think, like, from my impression, what Stokes was saying is that they're not a weak team and they can turn this around and they will go away and they'll reset and they'll have those honest conversations.

So I do think Adelaide could be, they could win that game. And then, like I said, suddenly it becomes a more interesting. in series. Yeah. Yeah, no, I don't disagree. I do think that's all. You've got to keep believing, though, haven't you? Otherwise, there's no point being here.

It's the hope that kills you. It is. Where do we go from here? We say thanks and bye and Merry Christmas. We say a huge thanks to Finchie because, I mean, sorry you were sat outside in the gorgeous evening in Melbourne probably. Well, it's snowing here. But you can get in touch with us and you can email us and you can text.

us and Jack's just sent it all through so we can read it. You can email us on No Bowlspodcast at BBC.co.com.com. Noblespodcast at BBC.com. It's so good. They said it twice. You can WhatsApp us on 0-3-123-1826. And you can text us on 8-1-1-1.

We realise we've probably been a bit quiet in this ashes, but we still need you to get in touch with us because when we do come back, we've got a great guest for you. So please email those, text us, or WhatsApp us. And we promise to be better. Just be better. Just be better. When's the next test?

I'll give us some detail. 17th in Adelaide. Nice, Christmas buildup, lovely. Yes, yes, yes. See you then. All right, we'll see you then. Bye. This winter

Cricket's oldest rivalry is reignited England and Australia do battle to compete for the ashes Here live ball by ball commentary on five sports extra

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