Test Match Special - Notts win County Championship & the future of the domestic game

Episode Date: September 26, 2025

Kevin Howells is alongside Dave Bracegirdle at Trent Bridge for reaction to Nottinghamshire win the Division One title. Captain Haseeb Hameed gives his thoughts on the season.Plus, the Professional Cricketers’ Association chief executive Daryl Mitchell doesn’t rule out strike action from players as clubs reject a notion to lower the amount of games from next season. ECB Managing Director of competitions and major events Neil Snowball tells us his thoughts on the matter, as well as the ECB’s involvement in the process.

You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Hello, I'm Kevin Howells. Welcome to the TMS podcast from Trent Bridge, where Nottinghamshire have been crowned county champions for 2025. It's their first for 15 years. I'll be alongside Dave Bracegirdle to discuss the achievement. Plus, we look ahead to the future of the county championship. We hear from the chief executive of the PCA, the Professional Cricketers Association, that's Daryl Mitchell, who can't rule out player strikes after the clubs rejected a notion

to lower the amount of games from next season. And also the England and Wales Cricket Board banishing director, competitions and major events, Neil Snowball, who tells us of the ECB's involvement in the process. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. So 2010, the 15 years in between, roller coaster doesn't touch the sides, does it? of the journey to get here now, that 15-year journey. Stayed in Division 1 until 2016, really poor year in 2016.

It was McNeil's last year as head coach, finished bottom of Division 1. They were relegated down to Division 2. Peter Moores had been here as consultant in 2016, and they made the change that winter. Mick became Director of Cricket, i.e., not necessarily hands-on every day, more responsibility for the entire

Trembridge cricket product if you like the weight of the women's side the second 11 the academy and whatever and obviously Peter Moore's with his vast experience as a two county championship winner of course we don't really mention that this is his fourth title Peter Moore's

and it was the first one I think to win it with two different counties now he's won it with three different counties, but he took over in 2017. They got promoted straight away. Then went on a little bit of a poor run, 18 and 19. And then of course we got into COVID. In fact, 19, again, finished at the bottom of the table, should have been relegated, but COVID 2020 and 2021, the regional thing. They didn't have divisions one and division two. And then 2022, they decided, well, we'll set up two divisions again, but we'll go on the finishing positions in 2019. So Knott's found themselves

back in the second division they won it in 2022 and the last couple of years they've just sort of been down towards the bottom of the table just flirting with the the nether regions When you say things didn't go well

what was that sequence that ended with that amazing catch over at Derby? Yeah 20 something matches without a win. Crazy. Two years. Yeah, yeah.

But you're right to I made mention of Peter at the 530 minute so at Sassix a couple back around the early 2000. 2003, 2006, with Sussex, Peter Morris won the title, 2011 with Lancashire.

Yeah, so it was a year later. And of course, he was at Old Trafford when not lifted back in 2010 as well. They've signed him up for another couple of years to be here. There were other counties who wanted to talk to Peter, wanted him to go. You can understand why

that might be. Hasibamed What a journey for him as well England When he's playing with Lancashire It was all going then badly wrong for him His contribution speaks for itself I guess with his fourth championship century this season

He's in this race with Sibley Who's going to end up with the highest runs in Division 1 His contribution, Dave Magnificent I think he's come as a captain As much as anything Obviously his runs is his currency

that's what he's there for to get runs predominantly at the top of the order with his century he's scored more runs this season than any other season in his career as you say he's up there I think he's just behind Sibley I'll do the sums tonight for leading run score in the country

but whether he comes first second or 15th you've had a good year with the bat he's had a terrific year but it's his leadership I think last year it wasn't necessarily a failure but nor was it a raging success it was just some indifferent performances and you know a few matches they perhaps could have won ended in draws a few matches they could have drawn they were defeated the only

two matches they won were against the two relegated sides who performed poorly lancashire here and kent down at canterbury so the two wins they got were comfortable and you know you'd have to say that wasn't necessarily down to the skipper but this year definitely a definite coming of age coming of captain It's always a telling moment when you can look out on the field at any point in time and recognise and know who the captain of a side is, who the leader is, who's the one making decisions out there. And this year, I think, more than last, it's been obvious. And I think he's been getting better and better and better.

And I thought last week he was superb. The most high-profile match of, I think, all these players' careers outside test cricket last week at the Oval against Surrey, a real top versus second. battle and I think he was superb. He was calm. He made sensible decisions. He made decisions I didn't necessarily agree with at the time but were proved to be right. No surprise there. I'd have had Liam Patterson White on earlier. He left him off. I wouldn't have brought Josh Tong back as quickly as he did. He did. Everything he did last week turned to gold. And I think he's a tremendous ambassador for himself, his family, for the Muslim community.

I don't know, I would just say off the top of my head I would imagine he's the first Muslim county champion winning skipper that will mean a lot to him it will mean a lot to his community and his faith I'm sure but above all else he's a great teammate to those boys down there just assembling in a huddle

they all respect him they follow him they you know they've really bought into everything that him and Peter Moore's as a duo of you know I've tried to bring about this season and I just couldn't be more in awe of his ability as a batsman first and foremost the runs he scored this year as a fella and as a captain and they've just established a great relationship him and Peter and if anybody was going to beat Surrey I'm just glad it's knots this year and I'm glad it's those two at the helm Dave spoke to the Nottinghamshire

captain Hassie Bermid after Knott's got over the line to win the county championship That's many many congratulations County Championship winning skipper What a day Yeah amazing day I guess we knew what was at stake today And the task we had Coming into it

But yeah to go out there and Produce something like that The different emotions And watching Liam and Kyle Gets over the line there was truly outstanding And then to finish it off with three poles In four overs is yeah really special

Last week of course was hugely significant It got you in the position that you're in this week so you knew what you needed to do but today in particular just couldn't have gone any better yeah um it's one of those days that yeah will last longer the memory it's um yeah i guess you just you just had to look at the the emotions um at the time cave you hit that boundary um the crowd you know everyone up on the balcony and two boys in the middle um yeah it's the sort of stuff that will um yeah that people will hold dear to them for a long period of time. Some things in life seem to be absolutely certain and you getting 100

today I felt was one of them. Do you know what? It was yeah I feel extremely grateful and thankful. You know it was actually quite challenging early doors against a newborn. I think you needed a little bit of luck to get through and thankfully I had that I had that today and yeah you know the partnerships that we had better myself firstly I think it was was important I think just to settle a few nerves maybe and then the partnership with Joe again was a really important one so yeah to being involved with those was special so little shots of the balcony once the moment arrived what could you take from from that what were you saying what were the emotions on the balcony yeah I guess you know when I initially sat on the balcony we probably still needed 60 or 50

or 60 runs so there were a few nerves at that time and Yeah, and then watching Kyle and Liam put together that partnership. It felt like more and more people were starting to kind of join that little section on the balcony. And then, yeah, obviously when the moment came, it was just incredibly special. It felt like a reward for, you know, 14 games where it felt like we've done, you know, a lot of things right, thankfully. And, yeah, boy, should be really proud of that. You were nailed on always to get a thousand runs this season, which you did. Your captaincy, now last year, not so only won two matches,

Lancashire were poor here, you won that, Kent were poor down at Canterbury, you won that. I'm not saying there any question marks over your captaincy, but did you think there were things you had to do differently this year, or has it just naturally progressed? Honestly, I feel like it's just naturally progressed. I think there was an acceptance that there was, you know, there was obviously quite a transition last year,

with two new leaders at the club, losing a lot of big players. And that's not to say, you know, I wasn't still learning on the job, of course I was and I did say I think it might have been back in of last year until you do the job it's difficult to know exactly what goes into it so I think you do naturally grow through experience and maybe having that year under my belt did help coming to the season but yeah I was also at the same time confident both within myself but also the group of players that we had and it was definitely something that I knew

was something that we were very capable of doing right since April your head coach has been confident that you were good enough to go on and win the County Championship title and somehow he's managed to get that across to the entire team. Did you always believe we're good enough to be top dogs? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I think we've got, I honestly believe

we've got a squad of players that are really highly skilled. And I've just mentioned there, we've got some amazing people we've got a group of amazing people as well. So I think one thing that we're really proud of is not only skill coming to the fore, but a character

to come into the fall this season as well. You know, there have been some challenges and tests along the way, none more so under the last couple of weeks, actually, down at Surrey and Worcester. And, you know, the mental toughness and the character the boys showed to get us over the line in both those games was, yeah, speaks testament and loads to the type of people that we've got in our squad. And, yeah, long by that continue. You've been a great inspiration and a real leader for everybody.

everybody loves the way you go about your cricket but your faith you're a devout Muslim what will this mean I think you're the first Muslim county championship skiffer to lift the trophy yeah I guess that's a nice thing to have to my name you know I think everyone knows how much my faith means to me and how important it is for me and I guess the acceptance I've had since I've joined the club has been amazing for me as well it's something that I deeply appreciate every single day

and yeah ultimately I'm you know I'm just another member of the squad who's actually really privileged to be leading the group of players that we've got in the club and yeah I guess they both go really well together privileged to have seen you in some happy times

but I've never seen you smile wider than when you were leading your team off at the end there yeah no absolutely I think exactly that you know that was just pure pride and joy at the you know what we've been able to achieve and I think every single person

That's contributed and that's not just the 11 players that are playing this game. That's, you know, a number of different people who aren't involved in this game as well. They should be extremely proud of what they've done. You're only the sixth different, Nottinghamshire captain to lift the trophy. You should be so, so proud. Many congratulations. Thank you. Thanks, Dave. Appreciate it. My thanks today, Brace Goodell. Now, let's switch our attention to the future of the county championship.

PCA chief executive Daryl Mitchell didn't rule out the possibility of players taking strike action after proposals to reform the county championship were rejected. On Tuesday, counties voted to retain the current two-divisional structure with each team playing 14 matches rather than changing to a 12-team top flight of 13 matches per side and I spoke to Darrell earlier this week. Darrell, thank you very much for joining us. I imagine your inbox has been or continued to be very busy

if not a little busier over the last 24 hours or so. First and foremost, can you give me your reaction to the vote which is in favour of 14 championship matches remaining at least for next season. Yeah, I mean, obviously, we were obviously on the other side of that in wanting in change. I think overall riding emotion is probably disappointment

that the game couldn't come together to find the solution of the issues. Obviously, I think everyone pretty much at the start this process was united across the board that change was required and that status quo probably wasn't where the game wanted to be but unfortunately a lot of polarised opinions

across the county network led to not finding a solution that was appealing to everyone or a majority. Yes, I mean we understand now and this will be getting up more and more that it was 9-4-9 against, split down the middle. Have you heard that might be, from any of your members from your members in the 24 hours or so after the the announcement's been made

yeah i think that we have a a rep's a player obviously every character as a as a player rep we have a WhatsApp group with that and that was pretty animated last night i think it's it's fair to say i think the overwhelming sort of opinion was it's disheartening really that the players or the majority of players haven't been listened to um so yeah again echoing my my thoughts from earlier, disappointed at the result in the main. But, yeah, disheartened that the player views weren't taken into consideration enough by nine out of the 18 chairs. Sorry to be pedantic.

You say disappointed. That sounds not particularly strong, Daryl. Yeah, well, I think disappointed and disheartened, as was the phrase I lose. And I think that's probably a fair reflection. I mean, we have got, of the proposal that was put forward, I think it was a 13-5 split amongst the players itself. So, there was 13 in favour of the 13-match proposal and five groups of players that weren't. That was the poll that we did with the player reps. But yeah, I think, I think disappointed is something that is the overriding emotion that I, the sense I got from the player-reps group last night.

and like I say disheartening that the players the majority of the players haven't been listened to some people who are in favour of the status quo and some who's adamant that there ain't nothing to be fixed here it's all okay will be I think very interested in the five that actually are happy with the status quo

because if the players can't agree how can the counties agree well I think it's obviously I think we've got 600 odd playing members I think we've got 450 male player members, obviously opinion is going to be, is going to differ on what the game should look like. I think that was the 13-5 was on the proposed 13 games. I think it was slightly

stronger on the original sort of 12 game proposal that was put forward in favour of that. So yeah, I mean our overall statistics are they've been quoted many times, haven't they, across the media over the last sort of 12 to 18 months, but the overriding view, from players was that the county schedule is not fit for purpose. That is the reality of it and change was definitely sought by the majority of our members. That's interesting what you say about the 12 and 13 because it was certainly made clear to me that some felt that the 13 was a compromise. Now it baffles me in negotiation what's wrong with compromise but apparently it's not to be accepted that so some of your members were not happy with 13 because they are adamant it should be 12.

yeah i think that's definitely the case i think i think through this process i think we realized that there is needs for compromise there are obviously polarised opinions across the game some counties were wanted 10 championship matches some were very adamant that 14 was the minimum they wanted and some were sort of flitting in the middle weren't they we realized that um we probably needed to be agile and and compromise on certain things so from our side the from going from 12 to the 13 match. Again, looking at the schedules, that was a big improvement. We even obviously were supportive of, in that case,

to get something over the line and through. We're in support of an extra two one-day cup games in the 100 period to try and give those counts that complain about not having enough content during the 100 window, an extra home game during that period at least. So that would give them something to have. So actually, the overall decrease in that 13-match schedule was just two days of cricket and that was something that we were willing to accept based mainly on the fact that the scheduling was so much better. I think what we've been sort of pretty consistent

on from the start was it's not just a volume of cricket issue. It's more the intensity of periods within the season. Looking at the season, next year, the 14 game option, you've got seven blocks of championship games to start the season in seven weeks. I think every team will play six games in that period, which is certainly manageable, if not perfect, but certainly manageable. We're pretty happy with that. I think where the issue comes now is following the 100 next year. There's going to be six championship games at all counties will play and the one day cup final during that period, which also includes two games in nine days in one period as well with only one day of travel essentially between the two matches which is a grave

concern to us from a welfare point and I don't think anybody could argue that is that is high performance or that is even safe really in terms particularly for fast bowlers this can easily be presented as a players versus members issue members who why if you're a member why would you support anything that gave you less of what you truly enjoy which is a definitely watching cricket. Why would you vote to have fewer days? So do some of your players see it as players versus members? I don't think it's as simple as that. I think some members that I've spoken to actually will understand that obviously they do consider player welfare an important issue as well. Obviously they will put members want to watch cricket. I'd like to think that the

majority of members would like to watch high quality cricket and players perform. at the best of their ability, which in the situation that I just highlighted a minute ago, two games in nine days, that's virtually impossible. So I think I wouldn't like to put it as a players versus member issue. I don't think that's the case. I think there's probably opinions that are split across both members

and within players actually as well. But I think ultimately it's the counties that have the votes and they decide on what the structure is. and there's obviously a very divided opinion there because it was a complete split in terms of nine, nine is the result that we're hearing. And like I said before, there's some really polarised opinions across counties and county chairs of what the structure should look like. I think if you look at the potential fix for this for next year,

I don't think anybody who were in the same positions we were before this process where nobody is particularly happy with it. So it's a shame, I'm sure this will probably rumble on further into the future. we'll turn to the future in a moment's time if we may a small number of chief executives supposedly I presume wanting to reduce the number of games I guess they would argue amongst perhaps several reasons

certainly one main one wanting to support your organisation Darrell in having a reduction in number of games approached you and said you need to go public and threaten strike action now those numbers I'm going to chuck out three three stroke four something like that why didn't you do that um i mean ultimately that we will be led by by the players on that at that stage i don't think there was the appetite um for that type of action

amongst the playing group as i said before the WhatsApp group last night was pretty animated there's some pretty high emotions within that and it wouldn't completely rule it out in the future but i don't think um i don't think that's where we we'd like to get to. I think there's obviously it would have a negative impact on the counties, it would have a negative impact on the game, which is not something that we'd be seeking to do. And I think it's not really been something that we've discussed in great detail with the reps or with the wider playing group. It's also something that it's very easy to say about strike action or industrial action of some kind. It's a little bit more difficult to

execute and put forward because there are all other implications of players not being paid during that period, for example, is one, the amount of members that you need to vote for industrial action and be in favour of industrial action. And at this stage, I don't think it's something that we look to encourage. But to be clear, you're not ruling out the possibility of strike action. Well, actually, I don't think that's, we are a union. I don't think any union would rule out the possibility of strike action if their members want it. And obviously, we are completely.

at the behest of our members on that and we will have those conversations if they're deemed necessary by the player reps and by our members. There was an interesting interview that Ollie Slipper did. Ollie is the chair of Surrey. It sort of backs up a little of what you're saying

Darrell. This was something that was done I think back on the 11th of September he said there was a WhatsApp group poll they carried out of their players. It came back 31 nil in favour of maintaining 14 matches Does that surprise you? Not entirely. I think Surrey were certainly one of the dress rooms

that were in favour of not changing. I think there's probably a number of reasons for that. A, they've got a huge squad. I think they've used well over 20 odd players in the championship this year, haven't they? And opportunities for those players is important. They're a very unique case, Surrey, aren't they, in terms of the size of their squads

and the size of their resource, essentially. I think obviously having won the championship in the last three years as well, that may have had an impact on that. Probably a little bit surprised in terms of 310, did you say? That's probably a little bit surprising because that's very different to the anonymous poll that we did where people, we get them to scan a key R code and fill in surveys anonymously. The result from that, the Surrey preseason meeting was different to that. But I guess when you're on a WhatsApp group with your potentially senior players, captains,

I don't know who is in the group, chief executives, directors of cricket, etc., where you're the ones who make decisions on your future and your contract, you're probably more likely to tell the line with the line of the club, I would have thought, than put your head above the parapet. Ollie Slipper also within this interview, he referred to the timing of the vote, Daryl, because you talk about the size of squad there at Surrey, which is, you know, comparably more than many others. He says the timing's not great

because got all this money coming into the game from the 100, which at some point, nobody knows when, could make its way into allowing clubs all 18 to increase the size of their squads. Have you had any reassurance or any conversation with the ECB because it's still they that hold that money at the moment, isn't it? That that is something which is on the agenda. to increase the size of squads with the money

that's coming into the game through the 100? I think it's not net. Obviously there's guardrails being put in place around that money, isn't there? So initially, obviously, they're not allowed to spend it directly on player salaries, for example. I think it's reserved for debt and revenue generation, generating products to enhance the club's revenue and build a sustainable business.

So I'm not sure. Cash reserves is another thing that's been talked about that money could be spent on. So I'm not sure that there's a direct impact on that. But I think if Ola is encouraging increased squad sizes and maybe minimum squad sizes

to increase across the game, I think that's a positive thing. I think that would be something that we'd be in favour of and would help manage those pinch periods that we were talking about earlier. I'd say those sort of two games in nine days,

for example, then okay, if you can use two different bowl attacks, four seamers in each one that don't have to play back-to-back games, then I think that would be a positive, which obviously Surrey can do with their squad. If the rest of the county's had a squad, the similar size, it could manage workloads better, then that could only be a positive thing. I think that we've talked about moving forward. It is a little bit of a case of back to the drawing board now, I think, and things like that probably do need to be discussed.

I mean, obviously, counties previously have mentioned, I know they're keen on playing matches buying the 100, perhaps that's something that could be discussed further moving forward. Championship matches behind that. Championship matches the 100s. I know the couple of counties have been pretty keen on that. I guess that would solve the problem of content for the non-100 hosts during that period as well.

There's obviously going back to probably the Strauss if you or even before that, it was mooted about playing championship matches abroad to try and alleviate that pressure and intensity, wasn't it? Again, perhaps that's something that could be. revisited although I can't imagine county members would be particularly in favour of that but there's definitely things there's definitely the need to sort of look at things and explore options and think

outside the box a little bit well we'll be hearing from the ECB's managing director of competitions and major events Neil snowball very shortly but first make sure you're subscribed to the TMS podcast there's plenty coming your way with the women's World Cup right around the corner every ball of every match from India and Sri Lanka starting on the 30th of September and England begin their campaign, the first tournament led by head coach Charlotte Edwards and the captain Nat Siverbrunt on the 3rd of October against South Africa, which you can hear on BBC Sounds with a match starting at 10.30 in the morning.

The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Very grateful that Neil Snowball, managing director of competitions and major events, has kindly agreed to come up and chat with us here. big talking point this week. The vote that was carried out somehow, some way, but we got to find out about it on Tuesday night just ahead of this final round of matches, which were the 18 first class counties coming to an agreement, 9-9, as it turned out to be, but it needed 12 for any change to be made to the season from next season. And this is all to do, well, there's so many nuances to this really, but basically a lot of the argument was focused on how many games of county championship cricket would be played. I know it involved the T20, we might come on to that, but I want to specifically talk to the championship.

Would it be 14 or would it be 13? The second option, as was the final vote, was for 13. Having initially been one of the options on the table would have been 12, 12 matches. So that sets out. The broad thing, Neil, from your point of view, can you explain to me to begin with what the ECB's role in this was? Because it has been presented as a overdue county cricket, sort yourselves out, come back to us and tell us what you want. But surely the ECB had some involvement. Yes, very much so.

There's quite a lot in there, so let me try and sort of break that down. So first of all, you're absolutely right. right, this has been a really long and thorough process to do a complete review of the men's domestic playing program. Obviously, the women's domestic playing program went through a thorough review over the last two years and we'll come on to that, I'm sure. But this was specifically about the men's domestic playing program of the three main competitions. So the county championship, the blast and the one-day cup because they're all very much interlinked. And I think the the starting point from a combination of the ECB, the professional counties and the PCA was that

the current schedule didn't really work and it didn't give the right balance between the competitions and also that there was a very strong voice as you know from the players that it wasn't really sustainable and the right balance between you know play rest and practice so so that's the spirit which we went into and the ECB's role was absolutely to coordinate that to facilitate those discussions which we've done right the way through from well it really kicked off in March

when we formed a steering group to oversee it but quite rightly the whole thing has been overseen by the professional game committee which is made up of a combination of non-exexex and execs from the professional game and the PCA and the ECB

so that was that was one of the really good things that came out of the very thorough governance review that we ran. You remember a couple of years ago, we went through a very thorough review of the governance of the professional game, and one of the things that came out of that was the formation of the professional game committee,

which Mark McAfety chairs and has done a fantastic job running that, and then that ultimately oversees the process. Sorry, but just mustn't assume on too much. Mark is also chair of Warwickshire. Yes, yeah. So I think the view was that there should be a serving county chair that chairs the professional game committee and then anything to do with the professional

game committee is overseen by that that group which is effectively a subcommittee of the board but in terms of the review so it was very clear at the beginning that this needs to be led by the game it's a decision for the game it's a decision for the 18 professional counties but the PCA have been involved every step of the way and the ECB have been involved every step of the way But ultimately, it's for the game to decide, the county to decide what they want to play. And back in July, there was a vote on the blast, which came out with, I think, a very positive outcome, which will come on to. And then when it came to the championship, it wasn't. Tell us that one, though, the blast, just so that we know what the plan.

So in terms of the blast, the blast is a terrific competition. It's the, from a financial point of view, it's the most financially viable. competition of the three men's competitions. I mean this year we had 712,000 attendees to the group matches which is up on last year and we had a record number attend the quarterfinals and the final so so that's in that's really good but it needs to be better and we we wanted to invest more in that in that competition so but one of the challenges is because we were playing 14 rounds of matches first of all that meant we had to split it either side of the hundred so you'll be familiar you've got the group

stages before the hundred and then the knockout and the final is after the hundred which is not ideal because you for a number of reasons you lose the momentum a lot of the players overseas players move on so we wanted to make sure it was played in one continual block and finished before the hundred but in order to do that you had to play fewer games so so the decision that was made back in july by the counties was to play 12 games instead of 14 to move from two groups of north-south which we've had for a number of years now into three groups so there'll be three groups of six in one in the north one in the central region and then one in the south and we'll play 12 games instead of 14 and that

enables two main things one is to complete the competition before the start of the hundred but also one of the main requests very very strongly from the PCA was to try to do away with these back-to-back games in the blast and that was one of the main things that they stressed right at the beginning because this year you'll be familiar with the schedule there are and a lot of back-to-backs where they're playing in consecutive days so by reducing the number of games and then looking at the schedule we can't reduce them all together but we can reduce them significantly and that's one of the main outcomes of that so are there any back-to-backs there will be some they're like to be some because

you could get away with them all together if you said we're going to play every game on a Friday and a Sunday because then you would but certain counties like to play on Saturdays some like to play on Thursdays and so you sort of make so what we feel this year

and we're working through the schedule right now is that we will reduce them but we can't remove them all together so that sounds like a compromise to me the word compromise has been used within the discussions over the county championship in a way that I've never quite heard the word compromise used before in a very negative fashion.

It strikes me, and we've had not a lot of response from the counties following that vote, they pretty much want to go to ground over it. But it strikes me as if counties didn't get everything they wanted from the discussions, they weren't going to budge, and therefore everything stays the same. In Gloucestershire, the chair has come out and said, look, we voted not for change, but we don't want the status quo. what do you want? It sounds to me as if it has been a heck of a job

to try and sort that out. And one chief executive sent me a text message saying this proves county cricket is ungovernable. Well, I don't know about that. It's challenging, but I don't think it's ungovernable. And I think we've seen that with a lot of the improvements that have come from that governance review that we said. And as I said, the formation of things like the Professional Game Committee,

if we take a step back, I think the blast there was a very strong collective view on the blast that it's a good competition that could be better that we needed to make some changes people were a little bit tired of just having the north-south group and we were playing too many games so there was a real collective effort to reduce that but even saying that

and I will come back to the county championship but even saying that there are some counties who rely very heavily on the revenues from that so if you take someone like Torn Turn Nor Essex. They sell out seven games. So for them to say, actually, we're going to reduce the number of games. That was a leap of faith. But a lot of counties felt that that was the right thing to do. So there was a real collective sense around the blast. The championship is then it's sort of

multifunctional in terms of what it does. And there are very different views. So if you start off with the number of games, and this wasn't just about the volume, the whole point of this review, It wasn't just about the number of games. It was about the quality of the competition. We wanted to be the best red ball competition in the world. It's already pretty good, but we wanted it to be better. And part of that was around, again, this term, best v best, but also having a better balance between play, rest and practice.

But right from the start, there were a number of counties who said, we do like playing 14 rounds of games, and we don't want to move. So some people set that out right from the beginning and I respect that. There were other counties who said, actually we do feel it should be reduced and we'd like to go down to 12. Some even said we'd like it to go down to 10. So again, that was their view. And there were others who said, we think we want to freshen it up and move away from the traditional 10-8 divisions and we'd like to freshen it up. At one point, chair of one county said to me he wasn't convinced that some

of the other chairs at the counties really knew what they were voting on. And this bugs me a little bit. This comes back to the governance and what's going on. Because the playoff final was part of the option at one point. But then that changed. And as far as I'm aware, it changed some weeks ago. Well, to the idea that it would still be first past the post of the most points. And it would be, from each of those two lots of six contending for the championship,

that the top three from each would then play each other in the Super 6. So it would still be a championship which was won by the team which had the most points. Yet still, on the 11th of September, Ollie Slipper, on an interview, an in-house interview he did, which went out on Surrey TV, he's still talking about one match to decide the champions. And I'm thinking, that was out of the window,

I don't know how many weeks ago. Now, Ollie may, you know, I'm not saying that he misled anybody, but I'm saying, sure, that's not even on the table. This is what bugs me about how straight and how, what's the word I'm looking for, how well managed the whole process was really, because it seems to me as if different people in different places were having different conversations. Well, they were, because there have been lots of conversations. Look, in terms of the process, I think,

you could say, well, you would say that because you've been part of it. I think this has been an incredibly thorough process. If I think back to the start, where we set up a really good steering group with a good mix of CEOs on that with the PCA, led brilliantly by Steve Elworthy because we wanted a county to lead it. And that group has put in a massive shift over the course of the summer. You've got Mark, who chairs the professional going committee, who is also put in a huge amount of time and effort, talking, listening, as we all have. And I think that's about respect because we could have we could have put ourselves in a room come up with a with a plan and said right here's the plan and then spent two or three months just trying to beat people

into submission that's not the way it's worked and that's not the way it should work what we've done is is is have collectively is a lot of discussions about a lot of different options and that and as I said it's multidimensional because you've got how many games of cricket is it 14 is it 13 is it 12 and also what's the format and then what's the promotion relegation it's it's it's It is almost like three-dimensional chess. And everybody has strong views because people care passionately about the county championship. That's a really good thing. The fact that it has gone on for quite a long time and because we've considered so many,

it's because people really care about the county championship. Now, what we did, you're quite right. It wasn't that long ago where there were still two options. One was with 13 games, sorry, 12 games, but with a winner-takes-all-fell. final, a little bit like we did back in the Bob Willis Trophy, but slightly different, but that would, and some people loved that idea and some people hated that idea. And then the other idea was the one you've described where you have 13 games, you play almost like 10 regular season games, and then you have a sort of a super sixes at the end, but you take all your

points forward. And there were a number of counties that really like that. But ultimately, something had to be put on the table at the end. And there was a view that there were, there were a number of counties didn't like the one-off final because it was too much on that one game and it would probably be played quite late in the in the in the in the season but others really like that but we decided that wasn't going to fly so that's where we came up with the proposal and the and the reason that proposed was originally discounted was because we didn't think it could be scheduled from a fixture in point of view because if you think about it at the moment we schedule all the fixtures before the start the season with that model you'd have to schedule those final rounds after

you know, after round 10, but we found a way that we could do that. It would be a challenge but we found a way we could do it. So that was what was presented and then alongside that because we should also talk about the one day cup, we also felt there was an opportunity to play slightly more games in the one day cup

alongside the 100 because that group games. So that was all part of it. So that was the proposal that was put forward. And that proposal was for the super sixes, wasn't it? Yes. Yeah. So that was... That didn't involve a one-off minds. That That was well gone, yet still he was being talked about and still being presented.

And I'm totally stress here. I'm not saying deliberately, but the narrative was still being put out there to the public that that was a playoff final which had actually been discussed some time ago. Yeah, I stress not meaningful, but, you know, not meaning to, but that's what was happening. So what I do know is that, again, in the past, some of the counties have been accused of not engaging with their members. and I can say this time round there's been a huge amount of engagement through members forums, through other

formats as well. So the counties have talked to and listened to their player groups. Again, the players have had a really strong voice this time around again, not just through the PCA but within their clubs as well. So all of that's gone into

a sort of six month long process. A lot of people have put in a lot of time and effort and when it came down to it, it was sort of as you said, pretty much split down the middle, which would suggest that there isn't yet a format that people can all

rally around to take that forward. So for next year, we stay with 14 rounds of championship cricket, we stay with a one-day cup as it is, and we've got it, we'll have a new invigorated blast from next year. Well, my thanks to Neil for his time. That's it for this episode of the TMS podcast.

Make sure you're subscribed so you never miss an episode, including no balls with Kate Cross. and Alex Hartley, plus the women's cricket world cup right around the corner. BBC Sounds will have commentary of every ball of every match. That starts on Tuesday, with India taking on Sri Lanka, which gets underway at 10.30 Tuesday morning. We'll be live in Guawati for that. Then we'll be there again on Friday as England begin their campaign against South Africa. Meantime, thank you for listening. We'll speak to you next time.

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The team behind the team with Katie Smith. In partnership with the Open University. Listen on BBC Sounds.