Test Match Special - Pakistan edge thriller and Thompson talks.

Episode Date: September 28, 2022

Aatif Nawaz is joined by Alex Hartley and Saqib Mahmood to discuss another thrilling T20 as Pakistan edge ahead in the series. We also hear from Moeen Ali and Mark Wood. Plus BBC Sports Editor Dan Roan speaks to the new ECB chair Richard Thompson on proposed changes to the summer schedules, the impact of the Hundred and the threat of T20 leagues.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Bring more gear, carry more passengers, face greater challenges. Welcome to the world of Defender, with seating up to eight, ample cargo space and legendary off-road capability. It's built to make the most of every adventure. Learn more at landrover.ca. BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcast. You're listening to the TMS Podcast. from BBC Radio 5 Live. I'm Artif Noise and welcome to a TMS podcast looking back on the fifth

Pakistan versus England, T20. We'll get reaction from England bowler, Sarkip Mahmoud, World Cup winner Alex Hartley and Daniel Norcross. And we'll also hear an interview with the new ECB chair, Richard Thompson, and what he says is the need for compromising plans to overhaul the domestic cricket calendar and threat of T20 years. Here we go, six to tie. Oh, he's got it in the air, but he's not going to get it all the way.

It's going to land safely, and Pakistan have won. They've taken a 3-2 lead in this series. England could only pick up a single from that, and a rather despondent-looking England bench wonders. How on earth they have lost this match. They've lost by five runs, they lost the last game by three runs. They'll feel they should have won both these last two games, but especially this one, having bowled so splendidly.

To restrict Pakistan to just 145, how important that 10-figate partnership turned out to be. The six from Harris Ralph. That's the difference between the two sides. T20 it does it to you. Pakistan have won. They've won. And they now take a 3-2 lead with just two matches to go. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

You can hear the cheers of the crowd at the Gaddafi Stadium in Lahore. An outstanding final over. he said by Armour Jamal, on debut, bowling to England's captain Moin Ali. It's been difficult conditions to batten. I mean, as we say, 1.45 looked like a below par total from Pakistan. But their bowlers have been absolutely outstanding. I mean, you said the slower bowlers were great. But, I mean, to hold your nerve at the death there, Alex, I mean, that takes a real mindset, doesn't it?

As a debutante as well. I just said earlier, it shows what you're made of in these situations. And it shows that Pakistan here have got a real star to be able. able to hold your nerve and bowl at one of the best batters in the world mowing alley and to be able to defend it i mean this series is the series that keeps on giving isn't it we've had entertaining game after entertaining game three two with two games left to play i mean if england win the next one it goes down to a decider the final game it just shows how even these sides are because we thought that 1.45 was below par but pakistan have brought themselves back into this game they

took three wickets in the power play and they've been outstanding today they've shown that written determination to win this game and they'll be looking forward to the next game in a couple of days. They will indeed and taking the advantages in this series will potentially give them a chance to experiment a little bit more as well. I mean we'll talk a little bit about Pakistan's approach

heading into the T20 World Cup and maybe their chances in Australia but let's just come back to England. Obviously they didn't get over the line today but they have been very very impressive and one of the things that stood out for me the most Alex is Mark Wood who came back into the team post injury and

He's bowling 97 miles per hour a couple of games ago in Garaci. Today in Lahore he picked up where he left off and he's now taken the prize wicket of Barbarazam twice in two attempts. It's great to see Woody back close to his best form. I mean, when somebody's bowling at 97 miles per hour, it's really hard to put your head around. And the only way I can describe that is if you're standing at the side of the motorway

and the car's zooming past you, he's bowling 27 miles an hour faster than they are driving. He has bowled absolute rockets throughout this series. He's been really impressive. He hasn't played competitive cricket since March. He got a three for in his comeback. He got another three for today. And he looks at home to be able to come back into a side,

to bowl that fast, to be fit enough to ball that fast. I mean, I know they say best when fresh, but that is a different gravy from Mark Wood. Yeah, yeah, seven months feel kind of fresh, I guess, but I haven't got time to, you know, it's a quick turnaround game to game, so I've had a break in between, and then this one has done me good.

I felt good again. The short ball seems to have worked well against Pakistan. You've got Barbarazam twice as well. So I mean, has that something been that's been consciously discussed in the dressing room to be bowling that length against Pakistan? Yeah, I think it's something we looked at from watching the Pakistan ballers. Actually, that they got a lot of wickets bowled from cross-barred shots. And we thought that it was hard to play.

Some would bounce high. Some would keep low. So that's all I try to do. Whack the wicket as hard as I can, be aggressive and try and take wickets. It was a great game last game. So we knew that, you know, coming here, that we had to really perform well. it's all, you know, all the player four or going into the World Cup, so it's starting to get

a little bit away from just, you know, people having a game here and there, to we need to start winning games, and it's a big series here in Pakistan. There's a lot of supporters here. Right now, our focus is very much on this historic 17 years in the making T20 international series between England and Pakistan.

Two iconic venues as well, the National Stadium, Garaci, in the Sindh area of Pakistan, and as we know, like, it was heavily affected by, you know, the floods that have been happening over there and I know there's been a lot of philanthropy happening as well donation drives and you know

revenue being donated by the Pakistan cricket board but also a lot of the England players have have kind of joined in that effort there seems to be a lot of goodwill between the two players and how much of that do you think Alex is the result of English players going out to Pakistan and playing in the Pakistan Super League

and of course Pakistani players coming here and playing county cricket I think you know there's always that crossover teams get to know each other the more cricket you play around the world franchise cricket. You do get to know other teams. Pakistan players come into play in the county championships, the blast. You know, you are going to get to know each other. But I also think it's just goodwill and good nature when there's, you know, a crisis going on in a certain country that you get behind the country that you're visiting and the England team have

done that, you know, and the Pakistan team have also done that. So to be able to contribute, I mean, we've seen, you know, every six that hit money gets donated to the floods, every wicket that's take and money gets donated to the flood. So it's been fantastic to see. It's been a lot of love for the England players out in Pakistan as well. I saw a sign today with the it was a flag. It was the England flag and it had the words

Ilford written on it. So somebody has made it from Ilford to Lahore, which is very nice to hear. Now we're going to be chatting a little bit with England cricketer Asakim Mammuth and my colleague on BBC Test match special Daniel Norcross as well. They were both on commentary for the game.

And Daniel, I mean, that was a crack game of T20 cricket. It's another one, isn't it? That's two in a row we've had here. These two sides are so brilliantly evenly matched. And even whenever they make large numbers of changes, there are a lot of changes to both those lineups. England have used 17 players, Pakistan, 16, and yet somehow the end result is always in doubt right to the end. I thought we might even get our super over today, but it didn't quite happen. I thought Pakistan were brilliant. They were expert with their spinners up front on a day when really bowling spin was pretty tricky, certainly for Adel Rashid, it had been. But they were brilliant in that power play.

What you needed was David Willey to hit a six off the last pool. That's exactly it. You know, Alex was calling for it. We nearly got there, but we didn't quite in the end, but Pakistan held their nerve. And largely due to that, a very impressive final over from that debutante. I've got to ask you, Sarkib, as someone who's been the top wicket-taker in the Pakistan Super League and performed so well out there. I mean, how impressive is it that that young man, 26 years of age, barely played any T20 cricket at professional level, comes into that team, is asked to bowl the final over and delivers. I think the great thing about that

was the clarity he had throughout the whole over he had a plan he stuck to it he missed on one occasion when Moinelli hit him for six he actually missed the last ball as well so if there was ever a ball

to hit for six for David really he was probably that but look for me I think you've obviously got to give him the benefit of the doubt there throughout the whole over he was clear and he executed pretty well the most of the time bar two balls and he got away with one

and got hurt on the other but that's that's the game I mean you've really got to put it to context. That was his first game. He's 26 years old. And he's under real pressure, 15 of the last over with a set batter in. And his plan was quite a tricky one to execute, wasn't it? It was to send a series of wide balls landing on the crease. That is a very precise skill. And as Saki said, if you get it wrong, you go out of the park. So, yeah, I mean, hats off to him. It was a great effort. It really was. Very, very impressive. And, you know, hats off to Barbar Azam, the

Pakistan captain for throwing him the ball. But let's talk a little bit about Moin Ali, the England stand-in captain for the time being. What have you made of his captaincy so far? Let's ask you, Alex, actually, because you know, you've watched a lot of his games, spent some time with him, obviously broadcast with him, so you know Moeen as a person. I mean, what have you made of his captaincy stepping in there? We all know about the great ambassadorial role he plays for England, wherever the team goes. But to step in while Josh Butler's been injured, a brand new captain, lots of new faces in the team, it's a challenge. Yeah, it is a huge. huge challenge. Josh Butler's only just got the job and now he, you know, he's injured.

So Moe Nali steps up. He's done a brilliant job. He's playing against a really strong Pakistan side. So there are going to be days where you lose. There are going to be days where things don't go quite your way. But I think the way he's handled himself and handled the interviews has been the most impressive thing for me because, you know, you get asked tough questions as captain, you know, what needs to be changed? How do you look forward to the World Cup? But he's not captain for that World Cup. Josh Butler is. So then he's trying to answer questions and get his head around the fact that, you know, he's just going to go back to be in that middle order all-rounder

where he's, you know, going to be a power hitter. But I think what he's done and the way he's been, he's kept a calm head. He's been really clear in what he's doing. It's been impressive. I reckon Joss is going to lean on Moin quite heavily during the World Cup of someone with that kind of gravitas and experience. And again, Sarkib, I know you guys have a very close relationship.

And, you know, as a mentor, as somebody who's to look up to in the game, somebody to lean, you know, to reach out. out to for advice, I mean, just give us a little insight into the mind and value of Moin Ali. Look, I think he's a very calm person, even when the pressure is on like it was today. You saw even in his run chase, for example, he never panicked. He almost timed it to perfection. But even his persona, he's a very calm person. And for me, whenever I want to do certain things, or if I need somebody to lean on for a bit of advice, he's always somebody I will turn to.

And, you know, even in that dressing room, he's a big leader. He's not the captain and Josh Butler is the captain but Josh Butler will turn to him a lot and you know the beauty is there's so many leaders in that dressing room to take over and Moeen is definitely one of them. Moin another close fought contest once again going down to the last over. How was the mood in the middle? What was your plan to tackle that considering you with a lone man out there? Yeah, first of all a very, very good game again.

Obviously disappointed we didn't chase those runs. I feel we're a better team than that. We just got strangled in the middle a little bit with their spinners who I thought balled quite well and we just couldn't really get going and then obviously towards it back in, woke to myself, put on a bit of a partnership and got close. Did you just feel the wicked was a slightly two-paced

or difficult to get runs on? A little bit initially and then it is also the ball is really wet, obviously the dew and the rain from yesterday so we knew it was also hard for the bowlers to control so we just had to hang in there I guess and keep scoring, keep the board ticking and then maybe at the end go hard. You spoke about Mark Wood resting him

and bringing him back in and out so that he gets in game time as well. Fascinating to see again him bowling quick and getting wickets. How good was that for you? Yeah, it was amazing. I mean, on a real slow wicket he bowled fast and he's taking wickets and he's massive for our team. I think to bowl him at the right times is really important. He gets the big wickets and obviously somebody with a bit of pace

can make batters do silly things at times and he's been awesome so far. The two games he's played. Thanks for talking to us, Moines. Good luck for the next one. Two more games to come in this series, of course. They'll both be on five sports extra, full commentary there on BBC Test Match Special. And the games will be on Friday and on Sunday.

From an England perspective, what would they like to glean from those games that they haven't already gleaned from the first five? Well, I think now it becomes a really urgent matter of selecting out of that group the 11 that you think is the best 11. And that hasn't necessarily been the case for this tour. For both sides, it has to be said, because they've been one. working with various different combinations. But the problem I think he didn't have is in their best 11 is Mark Wood. And he played one game and then was rested for the next. So how will they feel about managing his workload?

He looked quite tired actually today after his four overs, didn't he? And he bowled superbly again. He's picked up six wickets across the two matches he's played. Will they play him? I'll be interested to see what they think is their best line-up, because I'm pretty sure that they will pick their best line-up for this next game. They've got some great stuff out of today, though, as well. Chris Wokes bowled very well

and in terms of getting him back onto the pitch he's not played since March of this year through injury so that's promising would again very promising and today was the only time really that Ben Duckett and Harry Brook failed so I'd expect them to feature again

well on the subject of getting back from injury Sark if your injuries have been documented and we've read a lot about it and there's some wonderful pieces on the BBC Sport website I'd encourage you all to go out there and follow I know you've been you know, working very hard at your rehab and even, you've gone on the record about talking about

how difficult a lot of it's been, not just sort of the physical rehab, but just the mental side of it, just trying to keep yourself focused and keep yourself in a positive frame of mind. Just give us an insight into that because it's been a very serious injury and you've been out for quite some time. Yeah, I mean, I've been out since May now and it has been difficult because you know, just a little bit of perspective two weeks before I got injured. Well, actually it was the week I got injured. I had a phone call with Ben Stokes to decide, or talk about my role going into the first test and then a few days later you're injured

and then you're watching it on tell you now that can be hard work. I remember watching the first game and you're almost thinking, you know, I should have been there first test match at Lords in England and all of a sudden you're injured, there's no control over it and you sat at home. So, you know, that was obviously difficult to deal with and then throughout the summer is seeing everyone sort of play cricket

and I think the worst thing about being injured is none of it's in your control. So it's been a tough summer, obviously sat on the sidelines and, you know, you have doubts about whether you'll be back playing again, whether you'll be the same bowler and all of these things. So I think the worst of it has all gone past me now. And now the focus for sort of the next six to eight weeks

is getting back to 100% and just slowly just ramping up the intensity with my bowling, which has gone well so far this week. I think the hardest thing when you're injured is the world moves on and cricket moves on and they just replace you. And that's life, isn't it? As a professional team, Sakeeb's injured.

well they have to find somebody else to replace him and then you're sat at home you want a bit of space from cricket but you love cricket that's why you started so you watch it and you're thinking am I ever going to get back in this team because they have replaced me now am I going to be the player that I was and I'm going to get back in

but you don't want to think too far ahead because you can't rush something like a stress fracture because you have to go through the process you have to do your rehab being injured nobody sees what it's like off the field people only ever see what you're like on the field and you're this fiery fast bowler, but they don't see everything you've gone through off the field

and what you're going through at the minute. So being injured is one of the toughest things as a sportsperson. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. We'll have commentary on the 6th T20 in the series on Friday on 5 Sports Extra and BBC sounds from 3.15pm. Before that, you can hear commentary on the climax of the county championship from 1025 on Thursday. The county game and how it's scheduled is very much up for debate at the moment

following the publication of Andrew Strauss's high-performance review. There's been a mixed reaction to his proposals with meetings ongoing about the best way forward. While the man who is looking to stare away through the debate is the new ECB chair Richard Thompson, and he's been speaking to our sports editor, Dan Rowan. There seems little doubt, Richard, that the game is in a degree of turmoil right now. International cricket is having to fight for its status

under the threat of T20 franchises around the world. The domestic game seems divided over the way, forward with the schedule. You have the fallout from the Yorkshire crisis. Just how great a challenge do you think you face trying to bring the game back together here? I think it's significant but not insoluble. I wouldn't suggest that the domestic game is divided. I think the domestic game, all 41 stakeholders, feel actually quite united. We came through the pandemic particularly well compared to other sports. Obviously on the field, we've had a tremendous summer with the men's seven out of eight tests won, bouncing back from, you know, the

what happened with the ashes. So ultimately, I think the challenges are significant. Some are foreseen in terms of the high performance review and how that has create tension in the game and how we need to resolve that. But I feel I probably wouldn't have looked at this role if I didn't feel any of those challenges weren't ones that I could handle and deal with.

Does it need a reset, though? Yes, it does. And I think given that it hasn't been a permanent chair for the last year and a CEO for some time as well, and given the challenges that the game has faced without leadership, even with leadership, the challenges would be significant. Rafiq, ICEC, the Yorkshire challenges, all of that, cost of living in crisis as well that we're now having to deal with.

So I think all in all, yeah, that's a significant intray. And now coming into that, uniting the board, uniting the stakeholders, winning trust back from a public that may not feel this is a game for them, that it is essential that we ensure that this is a game for everyone are big challenges. We'll talk about some of those specifically, but in general terms, what lessons can you draw from your experience at the Oval and in the world of business to help you with this challenge? You can't create change if you can't recreate the culture of an organisation. So in terms of a reset, I think the culture of the ECB and the wider cricketing family needs to reset.

Its values need to be very clearly articulated, and I think if there is a culture, that that encourages change, that encourages a different approach to age-old problems, then you can bring about meaningful change. And in that sense, I truly believe that we can do that. And the fact that we are a game owned by its members does throw up the challenges that we are going through with HPR, but at the same time, I'd rather that was the case than be owned by oligarchs and other ownership structures. How would you describe the reputation of the ECB, the game governing body right now because for many I speak to in the sport they believe it's somewhat

out of touch they refer to there could be better quality governance and decision making do you accept those criticisms is the only way up from here I don't accept all of those criticisms I'd like to think that we just just with the death of the queen we've shown some very clear decisive leadership on one you know relatively small matter in the overall scheme of things but it just showed a sense of we can be decisive I think when you haven't got a chair for a year, you throw up challenges that we've seen, and we've had two great interim chairs, but you lack the authority of a mandate that I've been given. So I think in that sense, I look at the success of what we're doing on the field. I look at the success of our

DNI strategies in other areas, and everything gets overshadowed by the significance of the challenges that we've seen from a year ago. You're known as a champion of the counties, Richard. Therefore, How can you back proposals by the High Performance Review Panel that would see the number of matches that Counties' play reduced significantly? We know that more than half of them are saying that they oppose these proposals. So how can you back them? As previous chairman of Surrey, you represent those members. And in doing that, you read the room and you understand that they feel very strongly about certain things,

which I do too. Red Ball Cricket is the absolute pinnacle of the game and needs to be protected. I now sit above an organisation of 41 stakeholders, domestic and international. So I've got to see the game through a different lens. And in seeing that, the recognition is that whatever we're looking at has to change.

There is not a stakeholder, a county, and I'm sure a member, that will say with a straight face that the schedule works. The current schedule works, it doesn't. So whether some of the proposals being suggested, are a bridge too far, needs to be decided. And that's the purpose of the consultation that we're now going through that will enable the counties and the members to decide what the best outcome is.

If the HPR review, we're looking at 17 proposals of which 15 are agreed, the two are around schedule, were always known not to be the ECB's board decision, but the county's decision. And Andrew Strauss was asked to pull together a report based on high performance, and that's exactly what he's done. This is a high performance review to create a thriving domestic structure and to ensure that England reach the top, the number one side in the world in every format within five years. That requires radical change. And there are some radical elements to this report.

So I, as a champion of the counties, remain a champion of the counties. And we need to find some compromise here to ensure that the counties come on side with the proposals and see the need for change. And I think there's a significant trade-off here. that how I can not feel I'm being a hypocrite is to look at the schedule and think well if we have to give on some cricket here what's the preference to play better quality cricket with your stars available consistently

with a rhythm to the season which we currently don't have any rhythm to the season and no pattern so if we have a patent if we have the best players continually available in England are winning in all formats and we have to sacrifice some cricket for that then I truly believe that that's a sacrifice that I'm prepared to try and sell to the counties. But I do fully sympathise with where the counties are on this because they represent their members.

And to that extent, you know, this is a democratic process. That process may take longer than we hope for. But the most important thing is we get the right outcome for the game. We don't rush it. We push back the schedule where this was originally planned to be implemented in 23. I don't think that would have been fair because you want to start the season known what you're playing for and where you finish determines where you are the following year. So that gives us the time, it gives us a cushion, to reach the right decision, which it's

important that we do. I mean, you say that red ball cricket is of primary importance to you. You have the Leicestershire CEO, Sean Jarvis, saying this structure, the one put forward by Andrew Strauss's panel, threatens the whole future of the championship, he says. It really does put a potential nail in its coffin. I mean, it seems very divided the game as a result of this. In sport, you know this better than anyone. Everyone's opinion is valid.

He's entitled to that opinion. It's one I don't agree with. Where's the compromise they're going to be reached? Are you saying that we might be able to be a bit more flexible on how many matches we lose? That could we revisit it? Andrew was asked to produce a high performance review, which he has done. And he feels this is the optimum schedule to deliver that high performance. But you've got to take into account other factors as well.

And that's the compromise we've now got to seek and find whether the reduction in whiteball cricket with a blast is too much, whether the reduction in Red Bull cricket is too much we need to decide but that's for the counties to decide that's for the counties to agree and coalesce around a schedule that can still deliver high performance and ensure that the game is not being diluted to an extent that you know to quote Sean feels that that's the Nallin the Coffield Championship

which absolutely isn't and I would never allow that to take place and why do you think there has to be changed you said a second ago that the status quo isn't tenable what tells you that it's not working Five years ago, there were three international 220 weeks, I think. Now there are 14 and about to be 15. We have never had a situation now where a player could be offered a central contract by England and reflect on whether they want to sign it or not.

That's unprecedented. So those of people that understand their cricketing history, that's not quite a Kerry Packer moment, but it's not far away. So if we can't protect the player pathway, which is our single biggest asset in men's and women's cricket, then the game has an existential problem. So we can't allow that to play out. So we have to have a schedule that protects certain parts of our season

to ensure that every format, we've got four, four different formats, which is a lot, and we have to find a way plus bilateral cricket and international cricket in the shortest domestic season of any country in the world. And that's challenging, but we need to somehow find that balance, which is why things now being suggested are so contentious. And is that happening already?

You actually have players who are already, or threatening to you. You think how far away are you from a player turning his back on a central contract and saying, I'm going to obviously play out of work. We are foreseeing that as a challenge, particularly as you're particularly looking at singular owners, owning multiple teams. So you could sign to one owner and play in their three sides, follow the sun, be like a goal for a tennis player, and be on their tour as opposed to playing for England. I can't imagine there are many England players that want to do that. You're talking about a small minority of multi-format players.

However, it's a threat. And when England play, you want to know that England are fielding their best possible 11. So we cannot allow that to happen, which is why we need to protect the player pathway. We cannot be an academy from the under-nines to the under-18s when a player gets signed to then go off and play somewhere else in the world when we've developed and nurtured that talent. So we have to protect that pathway. We have to come up with a schedule that they want to play in. it's clear from the PCA who have made it very clear, the players, the directors of cricket,

that have all emphatically said the schedule doesn't work. So it is a lot of different stakeholders in the game that will all have different views, but ultimately we're trying to get everyone to see what's the best interests of the game of cricket rather than just their view. This is the game of cricket that we have to look at in the most holistic sense. And if you were still chairman of Surrey, you'd be open to these proposals, you'd be prepared to talk about them or would just reject them? I'd have the debate. I mean, that's for my successor, but as I said, the trade-off here is schedule.

The schedule's unworkable, and if the trade-off is that Surrey gets to see Olly Pope and folks and the Curran's playing in every match, in a schedule that, say, starts on a Thursday, finishes on a Sunday, that has a pattern and a rhythm to it, and you may have to sacrifice some cricket for that. That may be a sacrifice that they're prepared to offer. And whether it's 10 matches, 12 matches, whatever, these are compromises that need to be sought, Because I don't want division in the game. I want people to come together and agree a way forward.

And before we move on, finally, Richard, your message to the counties over this? We will come together. We've had bigger debates than this. You know, I suppose because I've been around the block, I'm not phased by this. I've seen far bigger fights than this across the game, and I think we will resolve this problem. Because I think people understand that the pressure from outside leagues now and the way that tectonic plates of world cricket are moving so rapidly,

we need a solution and a better schedule. And this is linked to this question. When you have a player like Ben Stokes, in the prime of his career, turning his back on ODI cricket because he says he just can't manage all the other demands, is that a wake-up call to the cricket administrators? Does that prove that perhaps the pursuit of money, greed, really, has become too much of a priority over the international cricket schedule and sustainability? It's hard to disagree. But I think the problem we have is there's probably too much cricket in the world. We have a world tournament every year. Bilateral cricket is hugely important for us. And we had to work our tours around bilateral competitions. If you look at what we have at the moment, the Pakistan ODI is playing out,

then we go to Australia to play a World Cup, then we go back to Pakistan again to play three tests before Christmas. I mean, it's an extraordinary schedule and it is untenable. And we cannot expect our players. not expect our players. We have a duty of care to our players at their physical health as well as their mental health. And we don't want someone like Ben Stokes, the best player in the world at the time, to have to make that decision. I guess some would say there wouldn't be such a strain on the calendar if it wasn't for the 100 in the domestic season. And on the 100,

we're two years in now. We know about your opinions on it previously when at Surrey. But now you're in this role. How do you assess it so far two years in? Has it won you round to some extent or are some of the concerns that you had when you were at Surrey? Have they been borne out? Well, they have because one of the biggest points I made at the time was I know how hard it was to schedule three competitions. So trying to schedule four would be even harder. So clearly that has played out and that's ironically, you know, a challenge that I've got to try and find a solution for with my colleagues. The reality of the 100 is it's reached an audience that in two years way faster than anyone could expect. The BBC and Sky,

The artist of cricket have never seen a new competition in any sport find the audience this has, particularly with families, particularly for children. So clearly it's found that audience having a free-to-air and a behind-the-paywall audiences or broadcast strategy has certainly helped. It's been a revelation for women's cricket, for Alice Capsie, for players that were unknown now, that within the cricketing circles are household names. So I think it's – cricket's paying a big price for four competitions, that's for sure. Is it worth it?

Well, I think time will tell. I think it will be worth it because I think the financial game, which is an important part of the reason why the hundred was pulled together, and reaching a new audience which has such a significant value will be. And I think that gain, that value will be realised faster than people think. In the form of it being sold off to an investor. Well, I just think value wise, I think there's significant value in that competition, in the way that it is finding an audience in the numbers. that it has. The numbers were significantly up year on year in certain areas, down in others,

but it had the benefit of coming through the pandemic. And now this year, it's found that audience, it's retained the majority of that audience. There's still lots of creases to iron out. It's not perfect by any means, but it's proven that there is something worth pursuing there. And, you know, absolutely, at the end of the day, I had challenges and issues with 100. So I'm probably looking at it way more objectively than somebody else might look at it. because it's important that I don't want to see other brands diminished as a result of the 100 or other formats diminished as part of the 100. So as an example, we cannot allow the blast to struggle.

But it has been adversely affected, hasn't it? Yeah, well, now next year, you know, having been chairman for 24 days, hopefully next year I can ensure that the blast is invested in, and we do ensure that the blast, which reaches a different audience, also can flourish as well as the 100, and you don't have one competition cannibalising another. You can't have one succeeding at the expense of another. So, you know, the game needs to work very hard to ensure that isn't.

It's been reported that there's part of the extension of the broadcast deal to 2028. The counties are yet to receive the confirmation that they'll receive the £1.3 million pounds that they've enjoyed so far each season, each from the ECB. Any assurances you can give the counties? Well, that's been worked out. I don't see that being a problem. There's a broader issue in some other areas that we need to understand. We need to sign off to the budgets.

I came into this role saying that we need to look very hard at the cost base. So those things play out into that decision. So there's a far broader context to that. How much of a challenge do you face just on the finances of the ECB generally given the inflation that we all know about? The game took the decision, I believe the right decision, given the context of the economy, to go early, one year early on its broadcast deal. So in that sense, we have now fixed 90%, 85% of our income now until 28.

So if inflation were to continue to increase at 10% year on year, as much as this particular broadcast deal is an improvement on the previous deal, it's still going to throw out some significant challenges because we know the majority of our income is now fixed for that period, yet costs will be increasing by 10%. So that will ensure that we have to increase the urgency of which we look at our cost base. But ultimately the game at a governing body level generates over 300 million a year. That's still a lot of money. But knowing the safeguarding issues, what we have to do around EDI, I don't want to step

back from any of the brilliant initiatives that we've launched in the last few years, whether that's ACE, DESO women, other things that are making a real impact. It's important that we don't cut to the bone and we make strategic decisions while ensuring that we allow other things to flourish. Would you have rather the ECB had waited until you were in position and maybe even the chief exec as well before just making that decision about extending. That moment would have passed. So I think that moment, that moment would have passed. But I think, you know, I think it would be a brave man to say the economy is going to be getting better anytime soon. So if we were coming to market

in a year's time, would it be more competitive? Could we have extracted several tens of millions more? I'm not sure. So in this environment, in this climate, and we're seeing other sports really struggling right now, especially rugby union, for example, post-COVID. How do you grow, grow cricket in this country as a business? We're taking risk. The hundred was a risk, a big risk, in a fourth format, and that risk is starting to pay off.

But after two years, it's very easy to judge, very early to judge whether it has paid off or not. But I think, you know, having won seven test matches out of eight, having played a new brand of test cricket that we've never experienced before, you know, there were eight national newspapers, seven of them had Johnny Berto celebrating his hundred Trent Bridge. That's extraordinary. So I think, you know, cricket's got a lot to be

happy about, but it's not without challenge. There is a gold rush around new competitions at the moment. So as much as it's creating significant challenges around schedule, player burnout, it's also throwing up opportunity where you have so many global formats around one format. And women's cricket must be a massive opportunity. Absolutely fantastic. Well, the women's euros, I think, was a seminal moment for women's sport. And that was not lost on me in a sense of we in 26 had the T20 World Cup. That's a huge moment over here. We've got three years to prepare for that now and having a domestic World Cup in this country in three years' time. We've got to make sure that our women win that competition and we'll be doing everything we can to make sure

they do. I must have to turn to the Yorkshire situation. You mentioned it earlier, Richard. How big a task do you think you have to restore trust after that scandal? Well... And how do you do it? The ICEC report that was commissioned by the ECB two years ago, the SUNYBAP report, which happened, was commissioned a year before the revelations from Azim Rafiq happened. I think that will be a challenging moment for the game. A reckoning. Yeah.

And I think that will not be easy reading, but we've got to hold a mirror up to ourselves. We've got to take on board the recommendations and what that report tells us. So in that sense, it's going to be a difficult few months, but a moment that we can start the reset that you talked about earlier. because that's going to be a very significant piece of work I don't think any governing body has done what cricket did there and it's required and I think obviously the CDC are pursuing the prosecuting the case over as a Raphik

and the allegations that were made there were yet to see the outcome of those things so it's very hard to comment on where that goes but you know the game has to accept responsibility you know ultimately diversity is a reality inclusion is a choice And we recognise that inclusion is one thing, but welcoming people. We've included everyone we can into the game, but do they feel welcome? Do they feel that this is a game for them?

And that's something that we need to ensure they really do feel that. And that's something we need to double down. And given your experience here, how will you achieve that? Do you think? What's your vision in that sense? My vision is very clear that cricket will become the UK's most inclusive sport. and it needs to do that rapidly and it needs to win back trust. I feel it has an opportunity that no other sport has in the sense that cricket reaches minorities and communities that no other sport finds.

So I think to look at cricket, part of cricket should be seen as a social enterprise, not just about winning the ashes. If you see yourself as a social enterprise, you can bring about social impact. And that's ace. They're schemes that I've been parted to at Surrey that are now role. that are now rolling out nationally that really do reach those communities in a meaningful way that bring about meaningful outcomes

and it's those outcomes that we need to be very hard to ensure that we find and win back the trust of people that may feel cricket is not for them and we need to ensure that they see cricket is a game for them. Do you fear the game here is institutionally racist? I think that's the Cindy Butts report will probably answer that question.

We're not in denial over the challenge that Azam Rifi shone a light on and the evidence he gave to the Common Select Committee is something that anyone watched was visceral, which was, you know, what he experienced as a player there. And we have to accept responsibility for the challenges that he's that happened. And the ICUC report is to ensure that we're shining a light on every corner of the game to ensure that any other challenges that we are unaware of, we become aware of, so we can then deal with them resolve. with them resolve. But you're clear, though, that it needs to become more diverse and that under-representation is an issue in this sport, on the field and indeed in the board room and with coaching? Well, you know, I was parted to an event two weeks ago where I've seen 60 new directors

come into the game. The county partnerships agreement has bought about significant gender balance and ethnicity to every county board. That may have been fair two or three years ago, but now if you look at county boards, and that's every county, that's the 41, when I'm very focused on the whole game. here, not just the first-class county. So in that sense, every board has now got a gender balance and an ethnicity balance that it didn't have before to ensure that it is making decisions in the broadest sense of the game and reaching those communities in the most effective

way it can. So there's progress being made. I know the UCB has had its South Asian action plan as well, which is beginning to have paid dividends, it seems. Just on Azim Rafi, you mentioned him, Richard, there is a suggestion that he has said he won't appear in front of those hearings unless they are conducted in public? Are you concerned about that? After all, he's the key witness in this, and the hearings may depend on him taking part.

Well, again, this is for the CDC rather than me as ECB. The CDC sits aside from my jurisdiction. So it's for that outcome to be a good. I mean, all of us in the game want to ensure that Azeem can get closure on this, that also those that have been accused of things, can be tried properly. I think going into this process, any witness would have been told and understood

that it would be in private. So for it now to be in public would be a change and would require every witness and everyone to agree to that. And I don't know how that will play out. That's up for the CDC and the lawyers of the individuals

to come up with the right decision and the right outcome. But I think it's very important after a year that this case is heard and the decision is really. on how the game can move on. Indeed.

And just quickly on that, I mean, I have to ask this, there have been some that have been somewhat uncomfortable with the way things were handled by Yorkshire. Recently, the former coach Andrew Gale, the club admitted sacking him unfairly, and they reached a settlement to pay him and other former coaches' compensation. How do you feel about the way Yorkshire conducted it

in the aftermath? I mean, some have described it as a witch hunt and that people may have been treated unfairly. Are you comfortable with that fallout? I think it's a matter for Yorkshire You know, there are ongoing conversations with Yorkshire, which I can't comment on, so, you know, that may be bound, that may be part of a broader conversation. But, you know, the way Yorkshire handled that, and obviously the report leading into what happened with the Zeme as well, I'm sure with the benefit of hindsight, they may have done a lot of things quite differently. But, you know, we are where we are now and we have to deal with where we are now and help the game move on and help those wounds to be healed.

You mentioned a resurgent England side under Ben and Brendan at test level Is it right that you met Ben or you're about to meet Ben and just make sure relationships between him and the governing body are good? We are. I've met Ben and I made sure I wasn't wearing a suit because I think had a problem in men in suits. But Ben and Brendan I've spent some time with and they're compelling and their approach to the game and their vision, I think, for test cricket turning in what they are is quite extraordinary and we're there to support them in every way we can

certainly i don't want the players to have the transactional relationship they may have had with the ECB in the past it's we're partners we're working together here it shouldn't be the ECB in the dressing room and having been in a professional game for 12 years at a leading county i would hope that i had a similar relationship with the dressing room and the players that i've had in the past but you know in rob key we have a great managing director of english cricket that can manage those relationships. But certainly, you know, we will work very closely with Ben. And I would hate for Ben to have the same criticism of the ECB in the past as he would now.

And I doubt that will be the case because I intend to build those bridges. And as I say, take away that sense of that transactional relationship, which isn't in anyone's interest to be the case. Just I'm curious, the Mank had run out. You've got a view on it. I mean, everyone talks about the spirit of the game, the spirit of cricket. Some think it's within the rules. Other people think it's left a rather sour taste.

What's your take on it as the man in charge? Well, it's within the rules. I think the MCC, who are the custodians of the rules, have had a view, and it's within the rules. I don't think anyone would want to win a game of cricket that way. But it is within the rules, and she was entitled to do that. I don't think you don't want to win a game of cricket that way. And again, you might look back at that and regret that.

But no one was cheating. It's one of the anachronisms of the game that fascinates us about the game of cricket. And it's very, very rarely seen, particularly at that level. And so, you know, particularly where I don't think it had any outcome on the game. I don't necessarily think England may have gone on to win. It was very tight. And those last few overs, I was there. I witnessed it.

And it was very surprising. But, you know, the decision was made. And, you know, as I say, it was within the rules. And this final question. Lord's. Yeah, and just final question, if I may, Richard. There is this growing sense, I think, that with so many formats, it might be ODI cricket, 50 over cricket, that's the one that will be the one to suffer. I mean, we're world champions, unforgettable occasion, obviously, at Lords in the last World Cup. It bends retirement from that format. It's just begun people to think, is that the one that's going to be sort of squeezed further and further out, and the bilateral ODI series are going to become rarer and rare. Is that, is that the way you see it potentially? We're looking at how little 50 over cricket other countries play. It actually hasn't played out that way. And Andrew Strauss's review looked at that.

The sheer volume of T20 cricket played has honed in whiteball skills. Although obviously 50 over is two and a half T20s, it still has developed variations on bowling and some invented shots that no one could ever imagine. And those have all been taken into the 50 over format. so we don't want it to be squeezed because it is the principal World Cup format so we've got to see how that plays out but statistically to say

whether we go to a knockout competition of 50 over cricket or we continue to play in leagues we've got to wait and see because obviously that's now being debated as to what the best schedule looks like for English cricket but we certainly want to be able to defend our World Cup You're listening to the TMS podcast

from BBC Radio 5 live That was Dan Rowan with the new ECB chair, Richard Thompson. You can follow more about that in the Sports Desk podcast on BBC Sounds, where you'll also find other TMS pods, including a new edition of No Balls with Kate Cross and Alex Hartley. BBC Sounds, music, radio podcasts.