Test Match Special - Pope on the pod and Aggers in the nets.

Episode Date: November 16, 2025

Jonathan Agnew and Stephan Shemilt are in Perth where the men’s Ashes begins in just 5 days’ time. Ollie Pope joins us to talk about the pressure of cementing his number three slot and losing the vice captaincy to Harry Brook. Former Australia fast bowler Jason Gillespie discusses the loss of Josh Hazlewood and a possible Ashes debut for Brendan Doggett and Aggers shares memories of previous Perth visits including playing tennis with the England captain and being seconded to bowl at England players in the nets.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. To embrace the impossible requires a vehicle that pushes what's possible. Defender 110 boasts a towing capacity of 3,500 kilograms, a weighting depth of 900 millimetres and a roof load up to 300 kilograms. Learn more at landrover.ca. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. I'm Stefan Shemmelt. Welcome to the Test Match Special podcast from Perth, where we're counting down to that first Ashes test on Friday. We'll be hearing from Ollie Pope on the pressures of securing the number three slots in the England team with all the talk around Jacob Bethel, plus his reflections on losing the vice captaincy.

We'll also get reaction to the Josh Hazelwood injury from former Australia fast bowler Jason Gillespie. And I'll also be joined by Jonathan Agnew to assess. what England's options might be for the first test and to share some memories of past Ashes trips to Perth. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. So welcome back to Perth where the anticipation continues to grow ahead of that first Ashes test on Friday. We're starting to see more England supporters arrive in the city,

just a smattering of replica shirts, on the streets. Local newspaper, full of Ashes' stories already, on the front and back pages. The Western Australian Sunday Times has a full-page picture of Stuart Broad on the front page. The headline, Broadside, he's given an interview to the paper today.

On the back page, the headline is Quicksand, pictures of some of the Australian fast bowlers out with injury. Pat Cummins and Josh Hazel would remember they're out of the first. test as headshots with crosses through them. For England, they're having two days off following the end of that tour game against the England

Lions at Lila Kill yesterday, boosted by the news that Mark Wood's hamstring scan didn't show any issues. Heel trained as planned ahead of the first test England kick in again in the net on Tuesday. Other positives

to come out of that game at Lila Kill and Ben Stokes, the captain, he took six wickets, made a hard half century. That was his first cricket since July. And Ollie Pope, now he scored a century and 90, and he cemented his place in the test team ahead of Jacob Bethel at number three. And Pope has been speaking to Adam Mountford about how pleased he was to get some time in the middle. Definitely. I think everyone's pretty aware that the conditions are very different,

but at the same time, just to obviously having a month, probably a month and a half since my last game. So it's just nice to spend some time in the middle. I've done a bit of work on my game, tidied up a few areas, so they feel real good out there, so hopefully, yeah, I can translate it. What sort of work you've been doing? Oh, just a couple of little technical bits. No, I'm not going to go into it too much before the series, but yeah, just a couple small technical bits just to, yeah, smooth out a few areas.

But in terms of finding that sort of form, I mean, in the middle, even though the surface was different, it will be different. There is something about getting runs on the board, isn't there, for confidence? Yeah, absolutely. If I always take a bit away from warm-up games, even if I did miss out, then there's always something to take away from it. So for me, yeah, I'm someone who likes time in the middle, just to get myself ready for a series. I've kind of had it in the past in different series that I've played in. So, yeah, I found it really beneficial.

And from a team point of view, obviously a win against the Lions, several people managed to contribute. How was the sort of spirit in the team about how that went with that warm-up game? Yeah, it was good. I think it was important, especially for our bowlers, just to get time on the feet and get used to bowl. You can't really replicate that, whether a batter as well, but I think especially for the bowlers and obviously they've all bowled a good amount of overs. I think most of them got through four, three, four, five spells over the three days, which is really beneficial. Everyone's come out, I think, all good, which is obviously a bonus. But yeah, really beneficial for us and just kind of getting used to tactics, we might find ourselves on, like everyone knows, the optus isn't going to be like that.

But as the series goes on, we might find herself on a flatter pitch at time. where we need to find ways of taking wickets so yeah it's always good to sort of tap back into those things it's been said a lot about our preparation and i think this is kind of how we've done it in the last away series that we've had and we've had actually a lot of success in the first games of these big series we won in pakistan twice both both times around we won our first test in india and went to new zealand and had similar preparation and won that first test so we know we know it that's what gets us ready for a game and and come friday will be as prepared as we possibly can be for that first test.

And a boost with that news about Mark Wood? Yeah, absolutely. I think everyone knows the pace he can bowl and the skills that he's got. So for us to have him ready and rearing to go is a real bonus. And just back to yourself, you know, you'll be aware. There's always talk before every series about selection, that sort of thing. You know the talk, is it Bethel, is it Pope? Do you think you've obviously done enough to cement your place for that test match on Friday?

Oh, I mean, I hope so. I've got so used to kind of those conversations being had over and kind of seeing them. Obviously, I don't go out looking for them, but it's pretty hard to avoid sometimes. And I'm so used to sort of seeing it, and I've learned just to focus on my game, and I'm just trying to become a better player every time I step out, and that's all I can do. So fingers crossed to get the nod, but all the trust is in those guys and respect the decision they make. It's been good for me in a way that I've learned when I've kind of felt under the most pressure I've been able to deliver. I guess in that, especially in that heading lead test.

So I know that I can kind of sort of learn how to deal with that and how to get the best out of myself at times. But look, everyone wants to be the first name on the team sheet. That's pretty clear. But at the same time, we're playing international sport. And I've got to remind myself that sometimes as well, that there's always going to be someone on your heel if you haven't quite scored the volume of runs at points

that you would have liked to. So, yeah, for me, look, again I don't look into it too much now. I'm learning to kind of live with it and just put my best foot forward and as long as I'm a better player than I was in every series that I play, I think that's all I can do. I'll try and use the pressures that I'm under and make sure I get the best out of myself and yeah I think I'm a far better player than I was the last time I came out to Australia. I've got those experiences behind me and I don't know how I want to go about it so fingers crossed that that can deliver with a lot of runs. I got dropped pretty quickly in the

last series and and I mean rightly so at the time I probably was I just wasn't as clear how I wanted to play I didn't know as I didn't know my game well enough and I didn't know the conditions like I thought I might have known them so they're things I've banked and also just playing in big series as well obviously the summer was a big series against India and it's just growing up a little bit and getting used to playing playing these big games and then putting in big big scores hopefully but yeah for me yeah i've got complete clarity and how i want to go about batting on each of these pitches yeah hopefully if i do get the nod on friday then then it's it's going to be an amazing amazing series to be a part of someone who won't be

in perth on friday is josh hazelwood what did you make of that news yeah i mean look he's a fantastic bowler um a team without him obviously that they'll miss having him but i'm sure they'll have guys ready to go. I think we saw in the summer when Bumra was injured, we didn't change anything we did but it gives other guys opportunities step up. So we're not going to take our foot off anything and sort of as you'd expect, take it easy. But yeah, he's a fantastic bowler and for them not to have him is obviously a loss for them but it's not something we look into too much. We haven't spoken to you since the change in vice captaincy for England. What did you make of that? Yeah, look, I respect the decision they've made and if they think that's a

right thing for the team going forward and obviously brooky captain the one day stuff and t20 stuff as well then that's absolutely fine by me and yeah respect the decision they made but you're still happy having a senior role in the team i guess yeah absolutely i mean i've played 60 i think 61 tests now and i think my thing is guys coming in and guys who are experiencing places like australia for the first time i think my my kind of senior spot in the team is is kind of leaning on those guys and helping them out because I have experienced this and I know what Ashes tour can be like and I've got that in the bank and I think there's a lot of us in the changing room that can sort of use those experiences so I can kind of use it in a different way

I see. Well that was Olly Pope talking to Adam Mountford I think we can say with some confidence that was England's number three Olly Pope. I'm alongside Jonathan Agnew and Aggers it is the Sunday before the first Ashes test and I'll I think if you'd said to me a month ago, maybe six months ago, maybe a year ago, the conversation we might have been having today would have been who is going to bat at number three for England in the first ashes test. Is it Olly Pope or Jacob Bethel? But there's no debate, is there? It's going to be Olly Pope. And I think most of that was settled after the Zimbabwe test match in the summer.

That was Bethel's opportunity. He wasn't there. For whatever reason, it still seems a bit muddy all of that. argument about it, but he wasn't there. He was sitting at the IPL. Ollie Pope said, thanks very much, got a big hundred, and that's kind of job done. And I think, I know it's a bit bit more fickle these days maybe, but I think you should be rewarded for service given, and Pope's done everything. He's captained at the shortest of notice, short leg fields, when Yerry and I go. Pope's been a brilliant vice captain really to Ben Stokes. I think he's a terrific player. I think it's a wonderful bat. one actually no surprise to me that he's the one who took the most out of the

practice game just got his head down and played that's really you know you compare that to Brooks approach I wasn't there but it didn't sound special you know Pope's not like that Pope's a an old-fashioned pro really goes away you heard there what works at his game he's not satisfied you know so yeah I mean I think the the whole Bethel thing has been a bit of a curious smoke screen hasn't it if I mean if they they're really serious about Bethel he really needs to play some cricket. And the fact he didn't play any cricket last time was really odd. And then to suddenly announce that he's shown all these great leadership qualities and therefore

he's going to be captain of the T20 team in Ireland. I mean, leadership qualities doing what? I felt sorry for him because every person I speak to who's had dealings in Jacob Bethel says this man is a very talented young player. That's from his school coach and upwards. This guy, for Mike Powell, who I had a good chat with him. This fella, this fella is a good player. What they were doing to him, though, was almost making him like the school swat. And that he was somehow being specially treated. Well, he got sledgeed in the 100 for that. Of course, I'm not surprised.

I think it was, I can't remember who gave him a bit of a send-off. But there was a lot of chat about, you know, let's get the golden boy out. Absolutely. Who do you think you are? Well, it's not his fault. I just don't think they've handled him very well. I don't think he's any better off. I mean, okay, it's called 100 than one days, and he got some runs here.

Is he in better control of his own game now than he was? against india in that last test at the oval where he just looked so exposed he played one lovely shot bang through the backward point and then after that it was just horrible he was someone who did not know his game and he has to learn a game because about how promising you are how talented you are and some people obviously work it out quicker than others such in tend older at a very young age works it out very quickly others don't take quite as long as that and you can still be very talented but give the lad a chance and i just i'm really pleased that pope's got to go Now, will he be at number three by the end of the series?

Who knows? They would have gone badly for England. Something would have had to have gone wrong because if only Pope is the starting number three, you would say that the only reason then that Jacob Bethel would come in is that either someone has lost form, results haven't gone well or someone's got injured. Yeah, injured, yeah.

I mean, that's true. I mean, I think you don't want to keep changing number three around either. I've got the Australian debate still about that, you know, what are they going to do? It's a key position. and I know that Pope might people will say that Pope's a better number five well he might be the way he plays because he is quite a free player

but actually you know he's knuckler he said I'll do it you know Joe Root doesn't want to do it Ollie Pope says I'll do it and I think you do get some reward for that I think the Bethel situation is just a really curious mismash of circumstances

so decisions made by England and he had his IPL deal before he made his test debut and England wanted him to honour that whether you think that's right or not that's what happened decisions made by the player of whether or not

where he should be playing and what else scheduling not ideal because a lot of the time the Red Bull cricket that is being played when Jacob Bethel could have maybe left the squad just wasn't there there wasn't always the time

for that to happen so I think that's a little bit curious I think what Oli Pope alluded to then about the pressure that he's been under basically for a year he's always responded so the 100 at Headingley I think was a really good

example of that that seemed like the debate was at its fiercest and he went and got 100 in the first innings against India but also the point of selection is to leave someone out there's got to be a really good reason that you're going to be absolutely certain

that the person you're replacing is going to do a better job and inform and you know we talk about it's number three changes you're going to be replacing him with somebody who hasn't held a bat for weeks, possibly. You know, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, I just think that they handled the Bethel thing really badly last summer. I don't think he benefited at all. He carried drinks. It was as though he was there for a couple of days and then we'd often played for Warwickshire

while the test was continuing. Oh no, they kept him there, didn't they? I just don't think that was in his best interest. I think also with Pope, there was never a stage where I thought this guy's got to be left out of the team. He'd always done just about enough. Yes, he's got this habit of starting series well

and tailing off. And that's what happened in the summer. He made 100 in the first innings. Then he didn't pass 50. and any of his next eight against India. But again, the debate reared its head when the Ashes squad was announced and we were told that Olly Pope was no longer the vice captain. Harry Brooke had replaced him.

Now, Brooke is England's white ball captain. Rob Key explained that decision by saying we think that Harry Brooke is a better leader and maybe there's some succession planning going on. But let's remember, Olly Pope was England's captain in the last test match that they played. And it just reignited the debate, didn't it? It felt like Pope once again was vulnerable to being dropped for the start of this tour. And maybe he would be more vulnerable if Jacob Bethlehem taking his chances in New Zealand. He didn't.

Pope was endorsed at the start of this week by Truscothic, Marcus Truscothic, the England assistant coach and Ben Stokes. He got 190 in the game. But it still felt pretty brutal for England to remove Ollie Pope of the vice captaincy in the way that they did. Yeah. So the only surprise is they don't make Jacob Bethelvese captain. No, I mean, silly. But I mean, is it to try and unify the white ball?

And do they see Harry Brooke? I mean, I think Ben Stokes is a massive Brooke fan. Well, Brooke's going to be the next test cap. I think we can. I think he probably will, but there's still some areas for me that need to be satisfied from that perspective. He needs to show a bit more Nouse, frankly. He says some pretty stupid things at times. the way he got out at the Oval against India

was just actually quite shocking 70 to win 2-100s day and after bat seven wickets in hand India broken you have to nail those games down you know you have to win those games and that's just

I don't know whether this case is growing up a bit of maturity you know perhaps another we didn't mention it there perhaps another reason for making advice captain is they actually do want him to take some more responsibility and do want to make him a bit of a mature character, give him that responsibility. I mean, that could be part of it too. Maybe they sense, hang on a minute, you know, maybe it'll improve his white ball captaincy

by being vice captain and the status that that has at the testing. Who knows, frankly, but you're right, it did look as if it was therefore going to be easier to drop Pope. And that's the sort of the first thing that was going through people's minds. I'm glad they haven't. It's down to him to perform, but he's a good player. And I really enjoy watching him bat. I think he's a real team man

and I think that counts for a lot on Harry Brooke I do feel that like when questions have been asked of him or he's been put in situations and he's been asked to improve in his career so far he has often responded there was a time when he was a really young man

when he was asked to get fitter and he did if you remember when he missed the India series away from home last year for personal reasons I think he wanted to go away and really work on his field in and then he came back and I'd argue that he might be England's most complete fielder at the moment he catches a lot in the slips so if there is a question about

him I don't know showing a bit more maturity and stepping up and becoming a leader then I think he's got that in him I mean it was an interesting start to his life as test vice captain this week in this three-day game at lilac hill not just the way that he batted in that for first innings, which was, it just showed that he had no sort of regard for the exercise or the warm-up game. Whereas someone like Pope, you know, he said, I got something out of it. Harry Brooke, I don't think he was taking anything out of it. He didn't really try. And that's, it's not fine, but some players can thrive in those circumstances and other players can't. One thing I thought was really interested, on the first day, he was put up to speak to the

media. And I asked him, you've picked five seamers in the England team for this warm-up game, does that give an indication to your plans for the first test? You're the vice captain, you're the leader. You must have some idea. And he said, well, I don't know. I've not. I just think there are ways where maybe, you know, if they're asking Brooklyn to step up, those are the ways that you want to see a bit more responsibility and leadership maturity. It's interesting because there's an argument all through the 90s when England never really had a vice captain because it always prompts this debate. It's a modern thing, isn't it? Yeah, it prompts us debate. Someone's not vice captain anymore.

Who's vice captain? Well, we're not going to have. one. So then there'd been an argument about why haven't you got a vice captain, who's going to take a go of? Oh, we'll see. So actually it was in a way, it was quite a good way of defeating these sorts of arguments and trying to work out any sort of pecking order. But these days, I guess maybe because the captain is more prone to being injured, if he's a bowler, they do tend to have vice captain, certainly. Because Harry Brooke could be England captain at some point on this tour. He could. He could. Let's hope not, frankly. Well, we're going to need stokes out there. So let's hope, let's hope not.

And bringing it back to Olli Pope, he's got a career batting average of 35. He averaged 34 against India in the summer. And like we said, he started off with 100 and tailed off a little bit. I think if Olly Pope was to average 35 in this Ashes series, if the batters around him do what we think they could do, I think that's enough for England to win this series. Yeah. I mean, you used to think that 40 was kind of the benchmark.

You look at the really good bats of the previous generation. They'd be around that 40, 41, 42 area. But, yeah, I mean, 35's not bad, is it? I think... Just because of how we might be expecting the series to go as well. Yeah, yeah. And it's playing more positively, more attacking shots these days. And Pope's got all those pretty shots, hasn't he?

As well as just playing properly. I just, yeah, I mean, I think he's got a score run. think Root has to score runs and then I think you know England can take it from there and if those two gets bat in their own way I think I think Root has settled down now we didn't he had that sort of mad moment didn't he trying to be a bas-baller and he's better than that and he's got his own target here anyway you know he'll just be so absolutely focused on shutting everybody up and scoring centuries here you know I think I really think

he's going to have a good series. If he doesn't, well, they've bowled very well at him. And he is a bit vulnerable here with that extra bounce. You know, a couple of gullies, I think would be a good place for, to perhaps get Root out on these bouncier pitches. It can be a bit flicking. I mean, it's a great shot that he plays, but it can sometimes not quite get on top of it. But anyway, yeah, that's, I'm sure it's an area they'll be looking at with Root, but I'm backing him to, backing him to score hundreds this time. so we've inked in Ollie Pope at number three and you and I have just been promoted actually

to England's selectors congratulations some would say it's long overdue where are we then well I'm quite like if I was one of the team I quite like the selectors who have had a look at the pitch first we haven't actually been down there to see this yet this is where our skill in select we've been promoted because of our skill

have been able to predict the conditions there's quite a lot what could happen at that down there with the absence of Hazelwood and Cummins, are they going to be more tempted to actually really make it something that's going to be as flat as a pancake? Is it possible to change at this late stage for the dropping? Yeah, probably. Yeah, you could. You could just roll the living daylights out of it, not put too much water on it. They don't have got, you know, free player spinning, they're going to be worried about that, are they? Oh yeah, there's still time in which you could make things different. You could just shave that grass off. So yeah, there's time. So that's

That's why I've actually got the name Jacks, penciled in, just as an option. I mean, he, I think, you know, all these days out, we haven't seen the pitch, but, you know, if we're talking about a possible team, I think he would probably be in my 12 or 13, however meant they're going to pick, so, because I just think that's, you know, you just wouldn't now, wouldn't you? I've got ten names that I think will play. Do you want to, do you want to do? One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, so have I.

And I've got three others. So regular top seven of... I've got Corley Duckett, Pope, Root, Brooke Stokesmith. I've got Cass Ackington Archer. Yep. And I've got Wood Jack's tongue. Now, if the Opta Stadium pitch is what we are being told it will be like, which is fast, bouncy, lively, and playing Mark Wood.

Yep. Well, I mean, that's totally possible. I mean, I put tongue there, really. I mean, I would choose wood ahead of tongue if he's fit. So, I mean, I can still see the value in playing another scene bowler, rather because I can never really got a spinner. I mean, Shabashir is, you know, he's got a way to go yet, especially playing on a pitch that we think it's going to be like there.

I mean, bear in mind also that the Aussies, the Perth lot are quite proud of the fact they've got this pitch. so they actually don't want it to be a flat thing but if they're without those two leading bowlers you can imagine that there would be a discussion at least about taking a bit of spice out of it I mean last of the India game both first things were over by lunch on the second day

so you know that that is not what they would necessarily want to happen and I think this is something that we touched on on yesterday's podcast on the way that England might handle Mark Wood and I think this is the thing that we're going to be really looking out for when England train again on Tuesday is to what Mark Wood can do if he how severe that that knock that setback to to his preparation when he had to go for that hamstring scan over the weekend has been if it was literally you are fine there is

the all clear get back out there bowling and keep your loads up the reason I think he's got to play is like we said yesterday it's just that protection in a five-man attack I think it'd be a greater risk for him to play with four seamers and a spinner that England aren't really sure about later in the series. Yeah, but I don't see the value in playing a spinner if they're not really good enough. You know, Jackson had got all those wickets in Pakistan that time, didn't he? And he could do a job. He could do a job, but he would principally be a batsman for me, batting either a head or just below Smith, and sort of bolstering that and bowling a few, it was a variety.

But I think you've got to play to your strengths and England's strengths are there are there quick bowlers Carson Atkinson that's the engine room You do have You know pacing archer obviously But tongue offers you something different and and he could get some nip on there I mean he's he's no slouch Especially against what could be a long Australian tail Yeah, absolutely I mean and then would just come charging in and you sort of cross your fingers

He's not he's not going to blow up on the way in So just as a final thought on England's team, you and you and I are agreed on 10 names, what would you be looking for when England will train Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Thursday. The fast bowlers were probably only bowl on Tuesday and Wednesday. They often have the day before the game off. What will you be looking for from Mark Wood to think he's ready to go? I want to see proper spells out of him. Yeah, and actually, I mean, Tuesday and Wednesday, they've got to work in pretty hard.

He probably had to have two spells in training? Yeah, I mean, there's any doubt, if there's any doubt, then you can't play him. I mean, it's not just a question of him, but getting unfit, but you're, you can't, you're not supposed to have a substitute fielder if you go even with a injured player. You can't, you know, he won't be able to bat if he's hobbling around up and down the wicket. There's more to just shoveling him off and someone on. You've come into a game with a known condition. If you're playing a hardball and it's an Ash's game, that's it. Well, you're down as 10 men.

So you've got to get into account as well. Well, thanks to you, Agers. More from you shortly. And let's get an Australian perspective on fast bowling. The former Australia Quick and Ash's veteran Jason Gillespie has been reacting to the Josh Hazelwood injury and explaining to Lee James. to lead James how much he's been enjoying all the build-up to this Ashes series.

It's been such a wonderful lead-up, hasn't there? Because there's been so many headlines leading into this series, both from an England perspective and an Australian perspective, you know, who's going to play? England, a lot of people talk about England's preparation with Australia. Who's going to open the batting? Where's Cameron Green going to play? There's a couple of injuries now with the Australians.

There's a couple of injury scares with England. And so it all makes for great discussions, lots of debate, a little bit of the Mickey Bean take out of both sides. You know, I'm sure the English media is getting stuck into the Aussies as well. So, look, I think it's all pretty good nature. I actually think there's a hell of a lot of respect between the two countries when it comes to cricket. I think everyone's just beyond excited about day one of the ashes

and we want to see some cricket get underway. I think all the talk will be the makeup of the both 11s and what that surface at Perth Stadium is going to be like. And you expect it's probably going to favour fast bowling and there will be a lot of bounce, there'll be a lot of carry, which will make for great viewing. Let's look at the Australian team coming into this test match, already missing one of the key bowlers,

the captain as well, Pat Cummings, uncertainty over the top order. And now another blow with Josh Hazelwood ruled out with a hamstring problem. It'd initially been cleared. He played for, New South Wales on Wednesday, but further scans have revealed a muscle strain. That is seriously depleted, hasn't it? Australia's pace bowling. Two of their three best quicks are out.

There's no doubt that that's less than ideal for Australia. Obviously, with Pat Cummins out initially last week, it was confirmed. Everyone just assumed Scott Boland a more than ready replacement. Average is 12 with the ball, would you believe, in test cricket in Australia. So look, he's a more than able replacement. The loss of Josh, we've only just found out recently. That is a bit of a blow for Australia. I think everyone can understand that. It's not easy to replace the near-on 300 test wickets,

let alone replace two lots of 300 test wickets in Cummins and Hazelwood. So, look, it opens the door for Brendan Doggett to possibly make his test taboo. He's in the squad. obviously with Sean Abbott out with the injury. Michael Nees has been added to the squad. He's got test experience. Do they go with him?

But I suspect Brendan Doggett is in line for a test taboo, which would be quite a significant moment in Australian test history. He will, if he does make his debut, he'll just be the third Indigenous male test cricketer to represent Australia. So it could be quite a significant moment in Australian test cricket. Yeah, really significant for Australian cricket. significant for him. How do you think he will be able to handle that occasion then to make his debut in an Ashes test? Yeah, I don't think it would be a problem. Many players have made their

debuts in Ashes cricket and have done very well. So, Lord Brendan's been around the domestic scene for a decade now, has performed really strongly. It's got over 30 wickets in shield cricket already this season for South Australia. On the back of, he's been in and around the squads over the winter tours that Australia have had, as well as getting 11 wickets in the Sheffield final in March earlier this year for South Australia in their victory. So, look, he's coming into this test series in very good form. So I don't have a problem with that. If he does get that Dubu playing against England, yes, it's a fantastic series, a big series

to be part of, but I think he can handle it. That was Jason Gillespie with Lee James. And Jason can't wait for Friday at Optus Stadium, and I'm sure you'll feel the same way, Agers. It's not unusual for England to start an Ashes tour in Perth. It is unusual for the first test of an Ashes series to be in Perth. It's never been in this city the first Ashes test of a series. Of course, we're talking about the old Wacker Ground,

which is no longer used for men's test cricket. But really, normal actually, for England to begin their Ashes' Tour. or here. I mean, I guess really, because this is the first place that the boat could land. I think it's nearest. Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, the reason that this place has got this is because they got an agreement with cricket Australia for the next 10 years that this new ground will stage the first test matches. So hence India last year, us this year and no, no go for the next eight years. So that's why it's changed. But no, we always started here. I think a number of reasons. Weather, always great. You know, it's, it's, it's

It's not too hot at the moment, but the sun shines. You can get out there in practice. The net facilities that are wacko were outstanding. And so, yes, we'd turn up. You'd have at least a week of nets. At least a week of nets. And then usually you'd potter off somewhere like Geraldton up the coast and go play against the country 11, which was great.

How far would you be going? Well, that must be two or three hours drive, I should think up there. It's a sort of seaside place. Well, no, it's a fishing place. There's some great memories here, full of locusts, I seem to recall. And the first time I went up there, and I'm pausing, because I will get his name in a minute, but the local farmer whose fields were being ravaged by locusts took five wickets against England at the time. And he was actually preferred with taking wickets against England than trying to protect his crops.

There's a ridiculous story one year where they were going to paint the wacker blue because the locusts were coming down from the north. And therefore, if they painted the Wacker outfield blue, they wouldn't think it was grass and they would move on. I mean, you know, it's bizarre stories. But yeah, if you play that, then you'd come and you'd play West Australia, and that would be a tough game, really tough game on the Wacker. And they'd have some quick bowlers and, I don't know, you'd have Langer and co-playing. You know, it would be in your face, you know, it was a tough, tough initiation, really. Then you go to South Australia and do the same thing.

Potter off to Port Piri, something like that. the north go and play the farmers again another opportunity if we would get into practice come back to adelaide oval play against south australia hard game again good crowds people you know really getting stuck into a bit hotter then off you go to hobart of course a complete changing conditions it was all we always thought the australians were trying to stitch us up there because you i mean hobart's freezing they probably were no i think they probably were so you went down to hobart was about 12 uh often played australia a and then of course up to brisman where It was about 32, very humid, he was playing into tropics for the first test.

So in fact, going back to 2010 again, when actually we beat Australia, A and Hobart, the bowlers, of course, was sent on. Yeah, they were, yeah. So they didn't actually play in that game. They didn't, they kept the heat, if you like. They kept the climatized to hot weather, and up they went to Brisbane. So, you know, it's just different, isn't it? You know, it was, they didn't practice every day.

I don't think they went off and golfed I remember playing tennis with Graham Gooch up on the roof of the hotel down there when he was England captain and my first year coming on here was quite a good player actually that was the year where he

severely damaged his finger dropping a court and bold actually at a club ground up here and they were actually playing against each other then they were having a knockabout between themselves caught and bold chance banged down it when he badly cut his finger and three or four days later

I played tennis with him up on the roof of the hotel down there and we had rackets that had those sort of toweling handles and his finger got really badly infected off that so off we go to Brisbane for the first test he can't play who's captain of England Alan Lamb is captain of England and Gouche has to have a really bad operation on that finger from it had it in Adelaide actually

so that was a pretty bad to start to the tour as starts the tour always were but it's quite modern actually for Ash's tours to have been curtailed in the way that they are now I've been you know

interviewing people for the From the Ashes series which you can find on BBC sounds but even as recently as 2002-03 Michael Vaughn's tour England were here from October until February they paused midway through for one day when Shane Warren dislocated his shoulder and going all the way back to 1962 63 the last time there was a tour that had part of the trip on by a by ship England flew to Aden and then got the ship to to Perth via a stopoff in

Colombo spoke to David Latter the former North Hampshire bowler about that England played nine games yeah before the first test match got to pull you up on something though because they did play golf on that tour. I found pictures of Ted Dexter striding off towards the golf course, in full suit, clubs on his back. He flew here. He flew here in a light aeroplane. I forget what I'm doing, trundling around Bonsor Australia. He flew his family from England to Australia for the tour in a light aeroplane. You talk about those times of such fondness of the different games and the different places that we'd go to and playing tennis with the England captain and all those sorts of things.

I guess the question is it's not whether it's better or worse. It's just different, isn't it? That's what it is. I think the main change is it's controlled now. The players are more controlled. There was no media manager. There was no Danny Rubin who's on the text

to tell you what's going on. As a journalist, you had to go and watch every ball of the nets because if anything happened, you had to be there. If you weren't there, no one would tell you about it, because the competition within newspapers was way more intense than it is now. And now I first tour here, I was amongst it. I was writing for today newspaper, which was a tabloid. So that was my education, really.

And I was very out of my depth. I mean, you're there with the mail, the sun, the style, the sport, the mirror, all that lot. You're down there, you're with them fighting every day for a story. So there was nothing controlled. There was never one player put up like there is. now, you know, 10 past 1, you'd be speaking to, you know, Gus Atkinson, no. You had to have your own contacts and so you'd go around to the team hotel at the end of practice and you'd hope they'd find someone hanging around by the pool, Alan Lam or

David Gower or we've got five minutes. Yeah, yeah, okay. And that was how, and so in the evening, the evening would come when everyone had filed their copy, we'd meet for dinner and there's always this sort of uncomfortable 15 minutes until somebody finally said, go on then, Ian Todd of the Sun, what do you, what are you written about today? Oh, well, I had a bit of a cat, you know, I chatted to so and so, so, right, okay. And then someone else said, yeah, did you see that thing in the nets?

That bloke, got hit on the hand, it might be an injury done. No? Oh, crikey. Oh, blimey. But some of it was a wind-up. Some of it wasn't. But if you weren't there watching every ball of the nets and you missed something, you were strung up. And that was the discipline having to do the job in those days, You have to rely on your contacts to get interviews.

I'll tell you one little story here when I started that tour for today as a tabloid writer and a great feeling of resentment towards me from the writers because they could see what was happening, retired cricketers coming in and taking their jobs. The big story here in West Australia was Terry Alderman who had of course destroyed Graham Gooch repeatedly. Goochnut captain, Terry Alderman here, playing West in Australia. We've got to get Terry Alderman is the, is the, word. So word goes around to Terry Alderman, nah, not interested. Terry could be a bit

feisty, nah, shoot them off. Now I've obviously played a lot against Terry. So quietly I scuttled around and saw Terry, said, Terry, I don't suppose he got, yeah, mate, how are you? I said, yeah, give us, give us, yeah, come on in. So we went all through the stuff, how he's going to get Graham Gooch out this time out? I mean, it was manor from heaven for a tabloid paper. So I went back with it. I thought, what am I going to do with this? And I never did tell my boss that today this. Do you have the exclusive, the first exclusive and probably be even more unpopular from the people that you're trying to swim alongside here or do you hand it round so I handed it round and from

that moment I was I was in I was in the in the conference every morning and I was looked after by some very experienced tabloid writers who from that moment on respected me was this about you boling in the nets well yeah well that was you I say respect to me I bowled in the net here because actually before it came out Mickey Stewart said will he bring your boots? I said, yeah, no problem. So in the net at the wacker I was telling him about, I'll bowl the nets. And Mike Selvey, also retired cricket. I said, he can't keep doing that. So I'm telling it, it's going to go wrong. I said, come on, I'm only bowling in the nets. He said, no, no, no. The moment will come.

You can't have a foot in both camps. I'm just telling you. So, I thought, okay, then all that Graham Gooch hand thing happened. He's ruled out of Brisbane. We go to Brisbane and the preview of the Brisbane test match. The first test of the Ashus, Peter Lush, the England manager came out because our name was my captain. I'm so I'm very sorry, but you can't speak to the England captain today. Well, it all kicked off. This is the Ashes preview. You've got to speak to the England captain.

I was there in my whites because Mickey had left a little message on my answer phone at the hotel. Please come and bring your boots and bowl at the net. So I was standing there in my whites alongside my new colleagues. I also need to speak to the England captain. And so I said, well, in that case, I'm very sorry, Peter, but I obviously can't come and bowl and help you out in the nets. So he said, oh, all right. So that was all fine, a bit of chuntering going on.

Next day, in the sun, Ian Todd, Agnew tells England to get stuffed. Was the headline. Because they had nothing else. They had nothing else. That's what he wrote. But himself, he was right. You cannot have a foot in both camps. What is it, though, about this city?

I know we're going to a new Ashes venue this time, because the Wacker is no longer hosting men's test match. Which is a great shame, by the way. It's a lovely, it's a bit ramshackle, you know, but it's got history and some of them, I mean, the speed of that pitch and the cracks that were in that pitch. Jeff Thompson smashing poor old David Lloyd's boxer part there. Colin Cowdery coming out at the bat there, age 40 whatever, pulled out from England to go and face Jeff Thompson and his most vicious. Hello, my name's Colin. We haven't met as he walked past.

I'm shrinking by the hand. Tomo, like, who the hell's that? I don't think he said that either. He said something you can't say. I think he probably did. But there's so much Roy Frederick's innings, 100 before lunch thing. I think he almost got anywhere against Australia here. Just flashing it everywhere, the little left-hander from the West Indies.

Kurtly Ambrose. Yeah, Kurtly Ambrose running through him here. I mean, all that. And it just felt the Lillie Marsh stand. You know, it kind of had a... I know you can get romantic about these things. I mean, the difference would be that the optus, very nice, impressive, big round bowl. but it's a big round bowl

but the question so there's been 14 ashes tests in this city England have only won once and not since 1978 I know we're going to a different ground but what is it about this place that has been so

hostile length of bowling England get it wrong fun enough the hotel opposite us here right opposite the road I remember going in there to interview Alex Tudor with his head kind of all sort of you know bound up and stitched together. Hit by Brett Lee. A furious

blood on the pitch. It was a horrible, horrible delivery. Alex was bad. It's just that extra pace and the bounce. And I remember we lost here in 2010-11. We'd won at Adelaide, so it's 1-1, 3 games gone. And I remember having quite a volleyball conversation with Alistair Cook at the end of that game in the bar, and not this hotel, just down the road. And I was really worried. I thought that's it.

Yeah, we lost here again. They're going to come back and they'll win and they'll win the ashes again. And he was adamant. He said, no. He said, that will not happen. He got the unplayable ball here from Ryan Harris. I mean, he was, you know, there was just that ability. And the Australians somehow managed to adjust much more quickly,

even though to the East Coast. Just face it, bowling in Melbourne or Sydney, It's like bowling at Grace Road or Edgebaston. You know, there's not a lot of difference. They were able to adjust more quickly to bowling, because you have to bowl a full length. The temptation is that you just run up when you bowl too short. It's the ball flying through.

Well, they've got Australian batsmen just sway out the way. Or they pull it. You've got to bowl that fuller length. And we've not done that well enough. And Australia always managed to do it. And our bats are obviously a little bit windy as well about the bounce and the pace. I think we're caught

our batsmen aren't used to playing back foot dominated play and we talked about this yesterday with the warm-up game the England bowler's fine but they bowled on a very slow pitch to batsmen who are much more likely

to get on the front foot than Australian batsmen play off the back foot cutters, pullers and that so that's one of the reasons I think why we've always struggled here I'm glad you mentioned the word windy

albeit in a different context because when I landed here earlier in the week I messaged you to say I wouldn't want to be bowling into the wind and you said wait till about two o'clock wait till this afternoon

so the Fremantle Doctor huge factor in cricket at the Wacker but there's a massive bowl of the Optus Stadium and again that's why it's rather sad that one of these great things because you'd pick your team

based around the Fremantle Doctor Explain it. What was it? Well, it's a strong sea wind that comes in in the afternoon. And what difference did that have to fast bowling? Because, well, for the bowler bowling from the far end, as we look at it, it's obviously demarch. It meant you had to run into it, but actually did help your out swing. Or, in the case of the off spinner, it would help your arm ball. And so Terry Alderman, as part of his success, was building into the Fremantle Doctor.

So the fastball could come tearing down it. Yardley, that's the I'm looking for. Bruce Yardley, another very successful off spinner. here, West Australian, who again would have just float the ball into that breeze. Jeff Miller-Bowell well here actually, but it only comes in around about two o'clock and you'd literally see the flags change up on the pavilion roof and the doctor's arrived and it's cool, it's coming off the sea. So that's why I school the doctor. Now a huge relief from Fremantle which is out on the coast. So, you know, fight after it's 35 degrees, it might

go down to, you know, mid-20s and that strong wind but I wouldn't like to have pulled into it very much. And the last thing, the other thing I sent to you earlier on this week, was a picture of my, I'm amazed that it's there. There's a water slide of the wacker. If I haven't seen this yet. A 50 metre swimming pool. Why? That has been installed at the wacker. No, there are grounds around the world that I've got a swimming pool. I can't think of one that's got a water slide. I want to see you going down it. 50 metres? Not the slide, but the pool. No, I'm not going. Where is it then? Because also one of the lovely things. things about the Wackers, you walk through those beautiful gardens, the Queen Elizabeth Gardens, which I think you could, if you take a bit of a diversion, it can still go through it. So maybe it's on that side of it.

This is where, by the way, the Barmy Army first appeared. Yeah. So whatever year that was, that was 1991, wasn't it? The first sort of outriders, if you like, the Barmi Army came and there was a plane strike, refuelers strike, and a lot of concern about how we would actually get here for that test match. and therefore also the Barmy army who found themselves because the Aussies in those days

thought these laricans is rather good fun these poms and they'd rather embrace them which of course they don't anymore and they're trying to separate them up but though they embraced them they got a sponsor

a well-known Japanese car company they got they were on one of the little grassy banks they put a nice sort of gazebo up and they're probably only I don't know 50 of them but they were the pioneers

of the Barmi army so maybe that's over on their side is it? I'll go and have a look tomorrow. What would I have to do to get you down the water slide? I'm the purse not ready for me and my speedoes yet. Thank you very much, Agers. Remember, we'll have a podcast every day of this Ashes Tour

and there's not long to go before the first test on Friday. Test match special on air from 1.30am in the early hours of Friday morning with play running towards about 10 o'clock. Plenty to enjoy during your morning

Routines will have video clips and highlights during play on the BBC Sport website and app plus a highlight show later on the BBC Eye Player. That's it for now. We'll talk to you again next time. Five Live Sports. The Rugby Union Autumn International. Unbelievable scenes are shell-shocks Wickham. Rugby Union's elite clash in a bid to close out the year in style. Oh, what a try!

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