Test Match Special - Richards and Botham: rivalry and friendship

Episode Date: July 28, 2020

England 's 2020 Test series victory against West Indies will be the last time the two countries contest the Wisden Trophy. The next time they meet in a series they will play for the Richards-Botham Trophy, named after two legends of the game: Sir Viv Richards and Sir Ian Botham. In this special TMS podcast, the two men tell Isa Guha about their friendship, their period together as team-mates at Somerset and their rivalry on the pitch when on opposite sides for their respective nations.

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Welcome to a special TMS podcast. England have claimed the Wisden Trophy following a 2-1 series victory and it'll be the last Wisden Trophy with future England West Indies series played for the Richards-Botham trophy named after Sir Vivian Richards and Sir Ian Botham, of course.

Well, Isha Goa managed to get the two cricketing nights together. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live. Gentlemen, what a pleasure it is to be joined by two sirs and the Botham Riches Trophy, what an honour. How special is that for both of you? Sirian, I'll start with you.

Look, it came out of the blue. I got a phone call and I sat back and I thought, well, that really is a big honour. You know, to have that now renamed. I thought it was quite amazing and I thought, well, it couldn't be with the best. a bloke so very happy that the two of us have been I'm pleased for as much for myself as I am for this because you know he's the best player at best batsman I ever bow to and he um in every format of the game he's been the best so it was a great honor to grow up with him you know we started our first class careers on the first same day and we played and had a great run at

some are set together in a fantastic dress room, led by Brian Close at the start. And I think we probably, both of us, closely quite a lot to getting us into this position now. So, no, great honour, very, very flattered. And I look forward to catching up with the man himself soon. We're always bordering on no travel. It's been quite difficult. Well, you get to catch up on Zoom. So Viv, just talk us through the significance to you.

and what a journey it's been with Sir Ian? Well, when I first got the news from our president, Mr. Ricky Scarrett, you know, I felt a sort of a welcoming, and especially the individual that they would have mentioned as well, that we have spent some time, quality time together. We have had some success together. You know, there are times when I know when I first came to England, just how welcoming Ian made me felt as an individual.

because, you know, there can be some funny people around the world, not everyone who appreciates this color. And to me, Ian, sort of adopt me as a friend, which was pretty welcoming. And I just felt that at that time, we sort of sent a huge message to the world that two people of different races can compete together. I would certainly live together,

shared a lot of good things together over the years. So on, to be sharing this trophy with Ian, one of my best mates, as I said, an individual that would, his venture would last for forever. That's how I see Ian. He's just a very special person. So he ain't going to have two sort of funny guys, two good guys, in my opinion, whose name is going to be on whatever trophy. I don't think that's too bad.

I want to get to some of your stories in just a moment, but can you just describe the significance of England versus West Indies test matches? I mean, we often talk about the ashes, but what do these two teams playing against each other mean to you, Ian? Well, when we played, when I was lucky enough, or unlucky enough, whichever way you look at it, to play against the best side I think that's ever played test cricket. It most of the time, it's pretty painful. You know, you got busted rib and you copped a few from all those. There wasn't too many drive balls in those days, and it was very testing, and I've got on record and said, in my opinion, it's the best test team that ever played, has ever played the game. It was at their peak. You just looked at the batting line up.

You know, Desi, Gordon Greenwich, Viv, Calicharan, Larry Gomes, who was another thorn on the side, Clyde Lloyd, you know, just goes on and on. Then you start the other end. You've got Dujean. He wasn't a bad player in his own rights. And then, of course, you got, well, about 12 quick bowlers, all six foot plus, with the exception of probably Maco,

Malcolm Marshall, all wanted a bowler at 100 miles an hour. Oh, it was a great fun. It was great for him. As captain, my first job, as captain, when I was going to the dressing room during that series, the first thing I did is I counted up to see how many fit men I had for the next day. It was very formidable, an honour to have played against what I think was the best side that ever played the game. I hope you don't mind me reminding you, but in 20 tests that you played against the West Indies, you won just one test match.

there was another opportunity at Lords 84. Did you feel that should have been one that England took care of? Well, I'm in 84, I can't remember what happened yesterday. What happened in 84? The special Gordon Greenwich moment. Oh, well, yeah. We actually didn't want to declare. David Gower, I think, was captain, if I'm right.

And I don't think he, none of us really thought we'd worked so hard to get ourselves into that position. that we didn't want to declare. And the then chairman said, oh, no, you've got to declare it. No one can get those runs now. You might even win the game. Well, by T-time, you know, it was all over, Red Rover,

and we were on a way home. But they were monstrous. They were magnificent. They dominated. And lucky enough to get to know very well, a lot of those players. And to rub shoulders with them in the arena was a great eye. So, Viv, what did it mean to you to play against things?

What did it represent? Well, as a little boy growing up, I've always remember the late commentary coming from people like Sir John. I'm saying John Ollett, I don't think he got to that stage. But the comedy, Brian Johnson on the BBC, they were special in describing what's happening at Lords. And as a little boy, I always felt that I wanted to be in that particular position hearing my heroes before we came along. the Starris and the West Hall, Charlie Griffith, Conrad, Hunt, Ron Kenai and all these people. So I wanted to be, from very early, to be in that position because of the road in which they would have cleared for me as an individual. And it's a series that every time, and I thought also that, you know, when you have some, a country, you know, who have been your colonizer for so many years, you know, and decades and

stuff like that for you to, as someone coming from the colony in itself, a small island like Antigua, that you were able to compete with individuals who once did whatever. That's, for me, it's my ashes. That's good to hear. Now, I want to ask you about the Both and Richards Trophy and how you expect it to be played. I mean, do you want it to be representative of your relationship, that you have, you had this fierce rivalry on the pitch, but great mates off it? I think I say, well, most sport has played, certainly in our time, whether you were playing the West Indies or Australia, you'd battle it on the field, but at the end of the day's play,

you'd sit down in the dressrooms and you'd have a beer or you'd have a chat, whatever. And I think that's what it's all about, being fierce and as formidable as you can be when you're out there playing, but then at the end of the day, the stumps come out of the ground, and then it's back to the real world. You know, it's back to us sitting around and there was a lot of very funny moments in those dressing rooms all around the world with all teams.

I think that's gone out of the... It doesn't happen so much now and I think that's a shame because obviously we're in weird times at the moment so it's not going to happen but it used to happen all the time and that sort of faded away and I think that probably doesn't help

didn't help in a lot of ways because highlight for me was watching Viv grow up when we grew up together we shipped a house for 10 years or whatever it was and you watch his career blossom and grow up and that gave me as much of a burst and I had an advantage because I actually knew

and better than probably most people in English cricket certainly and in the world of cricket and it's just great it's just fantastic and to be honoured and it is an honour I got a phone call and I was told you you can play for the richest both in trophy

and we're going to rename it instead of wisdom that was it sort of knocked me over a bit actually I thought well there isn't really a bigger honour than that and I hope it's it's very competitive tough and hard

but good off the field as well when did you first become aware of each other and your abilities we have we have been for the For the 125s team, I got selected out playing club picket at Lansdowne Cricket Club at the time. And I got invited to play the 125s against.

I think it was there in Glenmorgon, which was my second county when I left Somerset. So when I walked into the dressing room, I can remember this guy, wow, I'm in a strange land, this individual coming from a very small island. You know, there's a lot of things that I wasn't a custom when I first arrived in England. And as I walked into the dressing room,

obviously I'm a stranger. I hardly knew anyone. And Biff came up with a glass of cider, if I'm corrected. We couldn't afford you then, but... And he came up and he said to me, man, I think it was after the match. He came. I was scheduled to be the batsman.

And I got out first ball for a duck. And Ian went in and smashed a hundred. And he came after with the Sider and he said, from now on, I'm going to do the batting. I went in and apparently he was supposed to be all around who's supposed to get the wickets. I ended up getting five for 25. Ian came up and he said to me, hey, from now on, we're going to change roles. I'm going to be the batter and you'll be the ball. And just the fence you started from there and from there we just hit it right on.

And just the approach of Ian and his friendship and just the way in which me felt as an individual, whether I was black or white or yellow, whatever the case might be, he was just a people's person. And I just felt pretty much moved. And I said to myself, how it could be reasonably okay. And Ian sort of send that message that there's some good people around.

What was your recollection of that moment? And did you think that the cider was going to, to break the ice? Well, we had the side, but I'd like to point out that was at the end of the days probably. I'm glad you clarified that.

We enjoyed it. We enjoyed it each other's currently, but we decided it had to be afterwards. But no, I've heard all this about this West Indian guy from Antigua, Vivian Richards, Isaac, Vivian, Alexander Richards,

who was playing up in that bath, the lands down, and he was smashing it all around the county, to be honest. and neighbouring counties and just a run machine. But no, we struck it off straight away. He's right.

I got 100, he got out first ball, but he actually got six for 25, and I didn't pick up a wicket. And, you know, the mutual agreement was, well, okay, if you get the run, smoky, you get the wickets. It didn't quite work out that way. But that was the first time we met. And I remember, I think Kath was with me at the time,

my wife, or wife to be then, and my mother, I think, came down to watch this game. And consequently, my mum ended up with Mama B, as Viv, used to call her, and where's all both called her in the end. But every, once a week, we drive over from Taunton to Yowell, dump the bags of laundry, go down and play golf at the golf course, and come back and take all this press, clean stuff back to Taunton. So, you know, it wasn't a case of this being gradual. It was almost an instant. friendship and it's been that way since and as i said earlier um if uh if we don't see each other for six months it doesn't make any difference this is if we've been together all that time so

it is a special uh relationship and he his he's godfather to uh leum my son my son and he's very proud of that and he still calls him uncle bib which i think's quite amusing well we are getting old smoky Yeah, so you're going on, for sure. What would you say some of your favorite memories are then playing against each other on the field? I mean, we recently showed some archive footage back of 1984, that Greenwich double century, and there was a moment there, Viv, you were looking as cool as ever, and beefy bowls you were a bouncer, and you come down the track, and you're pretty much nearly at the other end, and you're tapping your back down on the wicket.

As if to say, you're bowling way too short. What would you say, you know, when you look back on your time against each other on the field, what are some of your favorite memories? Certainly, some of my favorite memories would be the fact that the success that we had together. The first thing, maybe let us deal with on the club side of things, where Somerset never won anything for a number of years. Then up come these two young individuals, as vibrant as anything can be, full of energy and we obviously started winning trophies and as a professional these are the

stuff that I think you you crave for you pray that you get yourself in such positions that you can be successful and Ian certainly created that he brought that energy saw someone who was a was a go-getter and we learned from one another and I think that's the most important things that you can remember. Just the friendship that shared because of the things we went through together. I can remember when he had his problems with the captaincy and he was about to resign. He came on that night. He came on that night and I stayed up with him and you can see that news and the dress and everyone was all of it. And he bought a couple of that stuff in the bottle again.

He just started to get involved with the red wine business and he brought a couple of reds home that night and I think we went through them and we spoke about maybe what was going to happen in the future. He said to me that he would

be linked to the captaincy and he just wanted to be Ian again because as an outsider I felt that because of Ian's nature and free sort of spirit that he didn't quite get the support that he should have from a lot of members in that team at the time

when Ian was captain. And that was a think maybe why he was in a position to fail. I mean, it was vice versa, wasn't it? Because you had Vives back at Somerset as well, Ian. You know, it was very much that kind of brotherhood between you two. Oh, definitely. We've always said that. I remember that one innings, he was about,

He got to 147 against us, I think it was at Lords. And they announced that Tanna I've ever just gone past 5,000 runs or whatever it was in those days. And I walked past him and I just said, let's just hope that's the same score tonight. It got out two balls later. Not to me. Peter Willey, I think, got him out, leading end.

Yes, that's right, that's right. Yeah, that's right. I remember that, yeah. Mickey Moses, Missal. We had a lot, well, it wasn't a case of having his back. It was just what was being done at Somerset at that time was totally wrong and for the wrong reasons. And Joel was affected, of course, by this as well.

And I thought it was disgraceful. And I stand by that. And it's disgraceful for many reasons. But Somerset had never won a single trophy when we joined the club. And then with the help of Joel and Hallam Mosley and all these guys that came through, from all around the world playing for Somerset was an honour

and the way they were treated was quite disgraceful and I wasn't prepared to stay there and be part of that and I marched off and you know when I was as Viff says I remember that evening you know I decided I didn't want to be the captain

captaincy anymore I felt that I wasn't getting a crack of the whip I've been given the job one test at a time which is ridiculous there's no continuity for me or the team and it was quite a ridiculous situation to be in. So, yeah, that's how close with it.

You know, can't get much closer than that. You know, in 10 years together in the house, you get to know each other very, very well, believe me. Good and bad. What was some of the bad stuff? I was very, very tidy, very tidy me. Viv used to, I used to raid his fridge. I had one fridge, which was cider

and a few glasses of bottles of wine. had the food. And of course, Joel Garner, who's another great night, he used to cook food and we used to go around and find out when Joel was not in the house, go in and eat the stew and then he'd leave a few stones in the pot. So when he came in, he thought there was food in there. Next morning, the dressing of the two of us scattered very quickly when it'd be angry, Joel Garner walked through the door. So yeah, there's many, there's hundreds and hundreds of stories. Just a privilege and an honour to having a mate like that.

It's very special. Can you remember a time when you just, you wanted to smash Ian out the park or Ian, you were so desperate to get him out? I mean, that fastest 100 must have been, you know, an incredible moment for you. And I actually just, I had a look at the scorecard, Ian, and you were going at five, sixes and over.

But that must have been, you know, brutal when he was going as he was. Yeah, and I was, I think if I remember right, we were one or two bowlers down as well. So keep on going. But, no, that was, as I said, as I've said on many occasions, the good thing about it was,

it was only 56 balls we had to suffer for. You know, so he didn't prolong the agony. It was just a very quick sudden bet, and that we were taking that care of. But, no, I do remind him in the first meetings I did get him out for not. very many, I think, caught hooking. So, yeah, so, but no, yeah, I got great delight if I got his wicket.

And if he, well, he got even more delight when he got my wicket, in Trinidad, I remember, where he danced around me all the way back to the dressing room. But, no, so many great memories. And as Vist says, quite lively. All of that started at Lansdown in Bath, and then went through the Somerset for 15 years or whatever it was. And then I went to Worcester, Vitt, went to Bermorgan,

and it was just as competitive. So, yeah, we didn't know any other way of playing the two of us. We played to win or try and win. Someone who plays to win right now is Ben Stokes. And I just want to talk a little bit about this series. And Viv, I'll come to you first on the West Indies

and Jason Holder as captain. You know, he was given the captaincy at the age of 23 is now 28. How excited are you about the future of this West Indies team and where they can potentially go under the leadership of Jason Holder? Yeah, I felt from the early stage that certainly had all the qualities for him to be captain. There's sometimes folks would question maybe the energy that he brings as a captain in terms of being innovative at times. Sometimes maybe allow matches to slip away rather than getting to. to the meat of the fight at that particular time.

But I believe he's got magnificent potential. We can see from his all-around ability that he certainly warranties being in the team because I think one of the things, which was suddenly said about him earlier, the fact that he needs to produce more. And I think to get himself in the category now of being the number two all-around in the world,

and no one can be annoyed with the fact that the best all-around at present, Ben Stowe, he's at the top of the order and certainly he has performed in that manner for him to be in such a position but it's a West Indian team that certainly showed some

former I don't think England on the estimated West Indian anyway has played well and these are how matches run sometimes England knew exactly what needed for them to what they needed to get done in the second test match and came out firing

West Indies wasn't at their best I think the only thing West Indiccan do now is for them to motivate themselves to such a degree that we are holders of this particular trophy. We are still in a very good position in order for us to draw the series. Let us take maybe football in terms. You know, if you have a premier team

goes away from home and plays against a very good team and comes away with a draw, that's okay. They're happy with that. Residents of which field is saying. that if they come away with a job, that they wouldn't lose this particular series and that there will be still holders. So there's quite a lot to motivate themselves for.

And I think Kim and Roach, who haven't had the best of time so far, that he'll come good and he'll come good at the right time, just in time where West Indies would need him. Sir Ian said that you were part of the best team that's ever played the game. I mean, where do you see this West Indies team going now? I believe we got all the potential in the world. There's lots of ability. I believe at times that we do not quite match that ability with performance.

But it's a thing that I believe you speak of young Blackwood. I'm a fan of Young Blackwood. He's aggressive. There are times people think he may be a little bit sporadic, really short making at times. But to me, aggression sometimes wins over. most times, especially when you get it right. What I think he needs to do at this present time for him to be more successful in future,

the innies that he would have played in a very third test match in that last innings is just given the sort of platform for him to move forward. And I think he would because there are times when as a player, you need to find out exactly the things that you can achieve. And I believe that he found out in himself, that apart from being aggressive, that he can also defend his wicked and if he does so and be a little bit more selective west is going to get a lot out of him the batting line up in my opinion looks pretty strong it looks got some depth and i believe the fastballers um can do the business i'm backing the guys to

uh to to to to to defend this particular series of what needs defending in this last test match fighting talk i like it um ian we've had mention of ben stokes there number one one all rounder in the world now, there have been so many comparisons with yourself. How do you rate him in terms of England's best all rounders? I think he's right up there. He's a breath of fresh air. He's box office. People, as I said, I've said on many occasions, he empties bars, unlike a lot of people I've played

with who've filled by him. So he's, no, he's fantastic. He's great for the game. The kids love him. and I watch him and I think there's a lot of things there that are in common with us the two of us, the will to win

both wanting to be involved all the time in the game whether it's fielding bowling or batting I think he's fantastic he's great for the game which is probably the biggest name in world cricket at the moment and that's saying something

when you think of some of the players around the world but I think he's number one and I think England are very lucky to have him. Durham, he's magnificent, and he's always been competitive, always wanted to go and work hard at his game. So, yeah, he's reaping the rewards of a lot of hard work,

and there's plenty more to come, I'm sure. What would your advice be to him right now because he is on top of his game? How does he maintain what he does? Because it literally is everything. It's full bat. He's contributing tactically as well. Yeah, no, he should, he'll know what he wants to do.

And I think far from, be it for me to sell him what to do, at the end of the day, he is his own master, and he's doing a very good job of it. So he will know if he starts to get an ache and a pain or his sore ribs or something's not right, then he's the one that will pull the pin and get it right. Look, he can go on and do everything. There's records there for him to beat,

and lots of records for him to beat. And I think that as long as he stays fit, which he works very hard at his fitness, there's a different format nowadays. You play a test, and there's a week or so of nets and training. We used to finish the game on a Tuesday, back to Somerset to play Wednesday, and then another first class game, and then back to the next test. So it was continuous. And that's easier.

I found that easier than having a period off. We had to go into the nets and train at 80 nets. but he has worked so, so hard on his game that it's now paying off. And he is great to watch, believe me. I think he's, there are not many cricketers I've paid to go and watch these days, but I certainly pay to go and watch him.

It's an incredible, isn't it, the difference three years makes where, you know, he was probably the lowest of lows and now the highest of highs. Yeah, look, you know, the lowest of lows. Everyone has, you know, when you're in the, under the microscope, go up as much as you are.

And nowadays with mobile phones and pictures, et cetera, and recordings, you know, it's tough, but, you know, he learns a lesson and it's all part and past sort of the

learning curve. And he made a mistake. But having said that, you know, he learnt from that and he's gone on. And he's made himself into probably the most valuable player in the world of cricket at the moment. So,

yeah, there's always a reason for something. And so long as you learn from it and move on, I think he's, which he's done, I don't, I don't think anyone holds a brudge against him for that, not now. I certainly don't. Ian, just one more question for you. Can you confirm or deny that you're about to enter the House of Lords?

You know as much as I do. The protocol is in place, so don't worry. I've spent quite a lot of time in Lords anyway, in North West. so we'll wait and see there will be an announcement I'm sure and then I'll be then I'm allowed to talk about it but if it does happen they'll be a great arm so you called it the Richards Botham trophy but I went alphabetical so which way should it be I don't think either is fair well can I button here you can I'm most senior I don't think I'm too bothered about it.

Anyway, anyway, it doesn't bother me. No skin off of my bone, man. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Sir Viv Richards and Sir Ian Botham, speaking to Issa Gouwer. Plenty more TMS podcasts to check out on BBC sounds, including a Carlos Brathwaite special and a look back on the Graham Gooch 333, 30 years on.

BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. Juergen, Yergan, you're a big fan of the BBC Sounds app. Oh, yes, oh yes. Well, we've heard reports that you've been enjoying the Football Daily podcast on it. I loved it. That makes me quite happy, to be honest. Josey, Football Daily is bringing top analysis and comment on BBC Sounds. How do you feel about that?

Of course, it's the best thing in football. Are you a fan, Oli? Yeah, I love that. Wow, this is massive. Pep, Football Daily has some big-named guests. Are you excited to listen? This is a good news for us. The team is really good.

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