Test Match Special - Rob Key on England’s Men’s Cricket

Episode Date: March 10, 2025

Mark Chapman is joined by Michael Vaughan, Jimmy Anderson and England men’s managing director Rob Key. They talk about where England’s men’s cricket is at the moment – what’s next? How will England look to change the picture across the board? And what will the process be to replace Jos Buttler as white-ball captain?

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souvenirs with pesos in Puerto Vallata or sending euros to a loved one in Paris, you know you're getting a fair exchange rate with no extra markups. Be smart. Join the 15 million customers who choose Wise. Download the Wise app today or visit Wise.com. T's and C's and C's Apply. with Mark Chapman. Hello, welcome to Five Live cricket. Michael Vaughan and James Anderson are with us an awful lot to get into for England's men after the winter so far.

England's men have won just one of their 11 Whitehall matches so far in this calendar year, so there is plenty to talk about, isn't there, Michael? Yeah, there is evening, everyone. Nice to see you all on the screens. Yeah, we've got plenty to chat. Rob Key on the show for a whole hour. So plenty of questions to ask you.

I can't tell Rob. whether you're just resting your chin or your head is in your hands already at having to spend an hour with us. Are you all right? Right. I'm just, I'm in my wife's sort of office upstairs and I'm just

petrified that I'm sort of giving things away in the backdrop if you put any clips on social media. No, I think you're fine. If we spot anything, we'll let you know and we'll make sure we won't put in. A nice plant. Yeah, nice plant and a nice hamper. You're fine. I think she's killed in a

plastic plants something well done are we at a soul searching stage James do you think I don't know if it's that bad you know it's been a tough a tough winter definitely

I think you know I've been on many tours to India and it's a really tough place to go especially whiteball cricket you look at their depth they've got they beat most teams that go over there in whiteball cricket so I think and obviously they've been

gone on to win the champions trophy as well. So it just shows what a strong team they are. So I think that was a tough tour for England and then obviously onto the champion's trophy then with the confidence probably a little bit damaged

from that. And it didn't just, didn't quite get going. And obviously in a short tournament when you've got three group games, you need to really hit the ground running and didn't quite happen. I wonder whether it's only for,

there's so much that we can get into here. But First of all, just the backdrop of how international cricket operates now, Michael, because I genuinely, out of all the different sports that I cover, I genuinely can't think of a more complicated sport, structured sport, for people to, for, Rob's laughing, for people to operate in nowadays. I genuinely, you know, looking at rugby union or rugby league or football or whatever it may be, this strikes me as the hardest to try and navigate your way through.

Yeah, I mean, we have so many formats and I guess different skill sets required. You know, you look at the 100 ball that's just sold for a huge amount of money and then you've got obviously there's T10, there's T20, there's 50 overs, there's three-day cricket, four-day cricket, five-day cricket. So there's so much to look out for. I guess the problem area for English cricket, and it's been happening, Since I was a young kid, we've never been able to manage the longer format

and the white ball format at the same time. If you look at 2015 to 19, Andrew Strauss put all the eggs into the white ball basket, and we won the World Cup in 2019. I mean, again, I'll ask Rob Keene in a minute about his kind of philosophy and has he kind of focused so much on the test arena that we've just taken our half whiteball cricket

in the last couple of years, because once again, in the last two or three years, if you said to the England cricket fan, you know, which format has given you the most entertainment and which format are you most excited about? It's the test team. And what's gone missing in the last couple of years, and it's the last three ICC events,

the 50 over World Cup in India, the T20 World Cup in the Caribbean, and now this Champions trophy in Pakistan and Dubai, the England team haven't performed very well. And it's on the back of the test team kind of getting all the praise and all the focus. I guess that'll be my first question to you, Rob. But when you took over,

the director of English cricket. We were the world champions in the 50 over, the T20 will champions. I guess it's a brutal question to ask. Did you take your eye off the white ball team because you thought there wasn't enough work really need to be done and the test team needed all the work?

So you kind of lost your focus in terms of what the white ball team needed. No, I don't know about that. I think that ultimately, you know, the test team needed, they were in different stages. the white ball team were the best team in the world or if not had been one of the best teams in the world for a while you know probably since morgue's over in what 2015 something like that after that world cup so then they've done a lot of work and you had this sort of era of cricketers that were coming through

and they were established they played lots of cricket they knew exactly what they were doing and the test team had taken a bit of a backseat with joe root and his captaincy where he had it tough where he didn't always have his best team and so what i did really i sort of then at that point focused on the test team and thinking what is it that they need and actually we just need people now who can actually keep this train going as best it can just evolve it they've got their style they've got their mentality in terms of whiteball cricket and they need to do and we need to make sure that the next generation coming through can also do it the problem in all honesty that we found it and it still doesn't excuse the way we played since Christmas in India. Now that's as

tough as it gets as we've seen. No one's beat in India. They've won 23 out of 24 of their last games in 50 over cricket. But what it became was that I had a decision to make. It wasn't a choice was do I focus on the white ball or do I focus on the red ball? It was like, right, one of these formats is physically impossible to have your best team at both now. It wasn't a case that I'm just going to give it to the test team and that's it. It was the fact that it's not the amount of cricket is how close it was together right the way up until christmas time now so that white ball team the decisions i had and i'd probably make the same decision again so take for example just before christmas we played a test series in pakistan then we had one day between that

and a white ball series starting in the caribbean so it's like right do i not send joe root and some of these guys, Harry Brooke, Ben Duckett for the test tour of Pakistan, and do I just send them to play a White Ball series, which was, there's an element of it that was, you know, it was just sort of crammed in as much as anything else, and then you go to New Zealand after that, and you can't sort of, you can't have all your best players in one place at one time. So as much as then, it meant that the White Ball team has suffered. You almost had no choice. It was either one or the other, and I chose to go for that one. So I wouldn't. I wouldn't. say it was my focus in the fact that that implies that we just thought everything was all right

with that every single time along the way you've had to make a call of you can only have your best team at one of these test cricket or white ball cricket and remember the future tours program that is done i'm doing the ones or i'm looking you know this is done by ops people commercial people all of that when you talk about how does cricket work you know that's done with the ICC and they almost talk at times it's a bit like speed dating where you'll have like England on one table then you'll have India then you'll have Australia and everyone wants to play them and then you'll go and there'll be West Indies in the corner desperate for a game because they can then keep themselves going so high performance isn't always at the forefront of the

schedule and that's the problem we've had and that's where I feel for Josh Butler in the as a captain you know up until only now from Christmas onwards has he had what you'd think would be his best team. So I feel like I've done a long-winded answer. No, no, no, no, no. But that's the sort of insight into the stuff you're having to juggle. When you have that Pakistan test series and the West Indies White Ball series, and you are making your decisions where your players are going to be,

are they involved in the consultation process about where they might be? or do you have to take that decision? No, it's more myself, it was Matthew Morty, it was Brendan, it's Lute Wright, the selector. I have a whole team of we have all kinds of people, scouts, everything. And you just sort of really, you know, I suppose, you know, what I am guilty of is saying that test cricket always wins that argument. But I sort of feel like if we hadn't have taken our best players,

because like you've got a World Cup at the end of every year, that's like the big one, a global event. You think, okay, right, so we'll do that. But we've got India, that's where we've got to then. We'll take that Champions Trophy team, even though you think it might be better to have a slightly different team in different conditions in India. But that's our time when we can really start preparing. Because I still maintain, even with all of those decisions, we had a, we're a better team

than what we showed. You know, we've got better batters. You know, our batten has fallen off a cliff, you know, and that's not because of the schedule as such, all right, you know, they don't get to play it as much as everyone else. but we still, you know, as Jimmy said there, the confidence just got eroded from our batting unit and we just thought we'll pick our best batters, our best bowlers, I know we could have more variation,

all of that, but when you've only got two batters that play anything like their best, you're going to struggle whatever the formation. So they're the decision going backwards and forwards. Come on to the batting in just a second. You will have been in some of those test teams that Rob was talking about where Joe Root will have felt that he didn't have his best,

players because the focus at that stage would have been on trying to win the 2019 World Cup or whatever it may have been and then that has an effect on that dressing room because some of your better players are elsewhere yeah possibly I think that the issue that we've got as an England team is that we're the only Northern Hemisphere team that plays international cricket or you know tests one days and T20s so therefore we play 12 months of a year so there's other countries that do get breaks they get rest so they can

probably more often than England can put out full strength teams and squads and I feel like when that one day squad got to or when they won the World Cup

in 2019 the lead up to that was probably the most different the test team and one day team has been so they were one day specialists and they were test specialists

there was quite a big there'd only be a handful there'd be Joe Root Ben Stokes probably Just Butler at the time so they were was a bit of a difference in personnel and I think that really helped that.

But at the minute, the closer you get to those two teams, the more players you've got in both or you want in both and that's where the problems come because there is a lot of cricket. Now in the last few years you're throwing franchise cricket into that as well, which obviously guys want to go and play

in and experience and earn some extra cash. So it's like there's so much out there. You can play 12 months of a year if you want. There's that side of it to consider as well. think so yeah I don't know what the answer is that's obviously another question for Rob that could be a very long answer could that we'll come back to that in a little while the batting then Michael so Rob says it's fallen off a cliff when you've when you've

looked and analysed the England batting why I think the talent's there I don't like hearing words like we need to go harder I've just seen an Indian side, and they've got all the talent. They're a wonderful team. I reckon India have got another team that could possibly have made the final. You know, I put it on social media today, a completely separate team to what won yesterday. And I think that team with the likes of Pant, Bumra, Jayaaswell,

Abyshek Sharma, Teletwama, you know, the quality side. So they've got the squad depth. But, you know, what I saw from New Zealand, what I saw from India, what I saw from Australia. Let's be honest, Australia had a patch-up team, and they made the semis. You know, and they competed really hardly. and I saw teams that played a little bit smarter and I just don't see how you can win one day cricket

and let's be totally honest in the ICC events now the BCCI control the Russo every single ICC event now they're going to be spinning wickets there's no way even in South Africa in the 50 over World Cup in a couple of years time it's not going to be the South Africa that I used to play in terms of Cape Town and Durban

they'll be spinning wickets like their T20 tournament that I watched in February lots of spin And that's what's going to happen in two and a half a year's time. And I just think if you're going to go out and play one way, which is ultra risky, you know, ultra-aggressive, I just think you'll get found out against the spinning ball and against real smart bowlers. They've got all the different variations. And I just think we can play smarter.

And I think in Joe Root and Ben Duckett, I heard Rob say absolutely right in an interview on Thursday when he did all the press. You were spot on when you said, our best two players are Ben Duckett and Joe Root because they play properly. And what did Ben and Joe do more than the other players? They actually hit the ball on the floor. More often than not, they find the gaps, rotate, the strike. And then the other players come in and talented, but they play too many risky shots. And by doing so, yeah, you might get $3.50 every now and again.

But consistently to win a big event, I just think you've got to play a little bit smarter. So I think the talent's there. I just think we've got to be able to go up and down. And by the way, that's in test cricket as well. I think they've got to be able to go up and down in the gears. a little bit more sound. I know you're both smiling,

and I can see Rob smiling thinking, well, I'm maybe a dinosaur, I'm old school, but I've seen enough cricket to suggest that the best teams win tournaments by playing different stars and different gears at the right time, on the right,

or on the different surfaces that you have to play against. You can't just play one way. He's not a dinosaur. Is he, Rob, with that analysis? No, no. Vorn he was one of the more aggressive captains. That's a lot of where,

a lot of the influence I had came up playing under him, to be fair. But I do think that what I've said this, what we say in interviews and stuff, and there's lots of different reasons for it, and some of it gets taken out of context. Some of it came from people's columns that should never come out, and there's sort of things that got said in the dressing room,

and the context from the moment doesn't come. But Brendan, in particular, has always been very, very simple, really, where it's about actually putting bowlers under pressure, but also soaking it up. And then when it comes to the white ball, you know, like we don't want Joe Root, people like that. Some players you want them to go hard.

some play like at the top Ben Duckett just played his one it's fantastic Phil Salt the same you don't pick Phil Salt to bat like Joe Root you know if you're going to do that you may as well put Joe Root up there but yes and they can get cuter

but someone like Salt in that power play you want him to do it we took a flyer with someone like Jamie Smith where you thought go out there be aggressive and if it doesn't work then you've got Joe Root Harry Brook

Josh Butler who can play all different kinds you don't just want them to go out there and slog and smack it whatever, they can then go and almost be the person that when you lose, if you lose three wickets quickly, they can then go and play. So I don't think, you know, and I've heard as, you know, I know Brendan, a lot of people, and sometimes there's reasons why he says that, because he wants them to almost, the problem with our players sometimes is when the pressure's on.

And there was no more a feeling I had in that first game against Australia where everyone's we just need a win. Like we haven't won. We just need a win. So sometimes you're trying to just free them up just to. think stop focusing on the end result the reason why you know you end up chipping a few when the game against Afghanistan you should be winning that is because at those crucial moments you're just tensing up so there's lots of different reasons for why they say the things they do but

ultimately in that dressing room it's about putting bowlers under pressure and soaking up pressure and playing the innings that matters and that's where in test cricket now when I when I started I remember we did a podcast forney and there's a lot of people thinking like Like, you know, whenever England's struggle, it's like probably in every sport, it's like they don't care, that they're just carefree and they're not tough and all of this. Actually, sometimes they care too much, whether it's just suffocating them. And you need someone to come in and go, right, you know, just take the shackles off. And then as you evolve that, a bit like what Owen Morgan does, then you get cuter. Then you finesse it a bit more and you make sure that it's not just going out there and looking to play shots, whatever it is.

But Brendan has always, as Jimmy said, he's very simple, Brendan, in his messaging. It's, you know, batters. I remember I asked this when I interviewed him. I had to interview about five different times for the job. And it was always like, you know, how do you go about playing test cricket? And at that stage when he was just doing the Red Bulldogs,

it's like, well, I believe you just batters got to put bowlers under pressure, but you've also got to have the courage and fortitude to soak it up at the same time, at the required time as well. And that's always the message. And that's what Joe Root does for us. That's what you wanted Butler to do for us. That's what you wanted Harry, but, Brooke, that's why they're there. Because the perception is that an England team under Brendan McCollum is carefree.

Yeah, I don't think that is the case or the necessary what the players are thinking. It's not how we go out there and play. Obviously, in the test team, which I've experienced myself as a player, it was obviously there was a side of it that we want to enter. We want to, you know, create excitement around test cricket and keep it at the forefront of people's minds, especially when it's competing with the likes of T20 and 50 over cricket. But those, as Rob just said, those key messages were the same, whether it's with the ball. Like, with the ball, his message was constantly think about taking wickets. And what he means by that is not try and get a wicket every ball.

It's trying to make sure that you're building up a phase of play to get a wicket. see, you've got to be able to see an outcome as a bowler that ends in a wicket, whereas I've played in teams where it's like, right, don't go for more than two and over. You've just got to be boring and like, if a chance comes, it comes, then great sort of thing. Whereas actually now there's more of a focus, it makes you think more as a bowler as to what is the process of getting a wicket. How am I going to do a job for the team on this particular surface against this particular opposition?

Does that perception, and Jimmy's explained it there, Rob, does that wider perception of what it's like under McCollum annoy you? Yeah, it does, but I think that's our own fault, to be honest. So I looked, there was a piece in one of the newspapers about the most eye-catching quotes of Bazball. And they make a shudder myself, Brendan, all of us really. And it's because the sort of messaging or the subtle messaging you're trying to get. And for everyone, it's different. You know, it's not binary in things, management and leadership and captaincy and coaching. Some players you need to be a bit more relaxed with.

Some players you need to be harder on. And that's what he does is the master of. And there was a few that I saw. There was one after, and I'll give you some of the context of why it's annoying. So after we, that first test match again, Edgebaston, so I'm there. And I never sit in the dresser room. I'm sort of in a box. Jimmy's playing on.

you know, on a fairly unresponsive surface. And it was a brilliant game, you know, like you had the Zach Crawley first ball, you had then like Brody getting wickets, and it just ebbed and flowed. And even when you get to the last session, you don't know who's going to win. And you just think at one, at this point, you're like, we might do this. We get them eight down, whatever it is, seven or eight down. Pat Cummings in. And then Ollie Robinson has said they got no tail and you think, here we go, please.

and it's like this absolute roller coaster that even Brendan's going through and Vaughney knows this because he was good at it as well where you're just trying to hide how you're really feeling where you're churning inside so anyway it looks like we're going to win

Pat Cummings plays brilliantly along with Nathan Lyne they get home and all of a sudden we've lost and suddenly you just think like you know like you just think and it's like the balloon has just popped for that second and I remember thinking myself like

and go into the dressing room and the last thing these lads need is to see me down they've got another test match in four or five days it's the first test match everyone's going to be gutted so you go in there and you're trying to be up and you focus on like what a good game you know like it's amazing you know what great entertainment

whatever else it is and Brendan was sort of saying like you know there's games like that you feel like you've won you didn't but he this is an internal message because what he's trying to do at that point he's trying to lift everyone. He's trying to make sure that they don't walk out of their

thinking that the world's ended. And none of that should really get out. I know I've said it now, but this has gone public anyway. And there's so many of those things. And the problem is the players then go into the media and everyone wants to know, what is Brendan McCullum like?

What does he say? And they're like, well, Bastra said this. But they have no idea of why he's doing it. It's the same thing with Vorny, if you remember, I wasn't in that. But in 2005, at Old Trafford, when you drew that test match. And I think you turn around to the players

as the Australians are celebrating on the balcony. And at that point, when you're all gutted, you haven't won, when you needed one wicket, and you say, look at those Ozzy's cheering on the balcony there. Because it's those are the times in leadership and management where you've got to say the right thing. And there's so many occasions when I looked at the quotes. You know, when people say,

we don't care about winning, nonsense, complete nonsense. But the reason why they're messaging that way is because at that point in time is because we all know how big this ashes is. The whole country is talking about it. And sometimes you've got to be above the players and you've got to be dragging them up.

And sometimes actually when they're going really well, you need to be below them. You need to say, hey, just, and they do that as well as Jimmy will say. So they're the frustrating things. Then when players go and just say it in one line and a snippet with none of the context and you think, oh my God, how, you know,

you're making us look like idiots. Rob, can I ask you, I mean, you said previously about the schedule and obviously Jimmy mentioned that we probably play more than anybody else with India. How do Australia cope? Well, Australia, I think, at the time, during COVID, they didn't play any cricket away from home, did they? I think there's been a lot of times where we... I'm talking in the last couple of years, you know, this is what... I think... You're going to be judged in nine months' time.

You know, the setup of what you've produced in the last two or three years, well, it's judgment day, India at home, Australia. Australia away, you know, this Australian juggerna, and again, I'll go back to my time when we were pretty good at test match cricket, useless at whiteball cricket. We've never managed to do both at the same time. Australia do do both. How? Yeah, well, I think they play less test cricket than us, you know, and that's the time. So I think a lot of the time in this period, because, you know, we had a time where you just plugged in two of your best bowlers in test cricket, and that was it. Jimmy Anderson and Stuart Broaden, you just went whack. And then the white ball team was different, whereas now, I think we're getting to a point, we haven't

had this for the last two years, where we can get our best cricketers playing more often than not, which generally is what Australia do. So Australia won what, the World Cup, the 50 over World Cup, what was their attack? Come in Stark, Hazelwood. So they get through, they get that great bowling attack playing all formats for them. The same thing when they won the World T20, come in Stark, Hazelwood. They're a massive part of it. And that's how they're they're able to do it. They have more players as well that are able to play all formats. And a lot of that is because of the way that their schedule works hasn't been the same as us. There's no way physical way you could get those guys to play. If you look back over the last

two or three years, you can't get them playing all the cricket, all the formats like they have done. And I'll say you look at them, you look at someone like Pat Cummins because it's not just about, right, they've all got to play loads of bilateral 50 over cricket or we've got to have domestic 50 over cricket because Pat Cummins I think when they won the last 50 over World Cup hadn't played loads of them but when you look they are able to get their best players playing for Australia cross formats a lot more often than we do this is the first time in this champion's trophy where we haven't seen all of that you know where they actually look like they rested a few players and that's one of the really if you want to go back past that you know

I'm not so sure when you're looking into when you played when you know the the year or after that, but in general, that's why over the last two or three years, we've not been able to do it. Does that make sense? Do you on the bowling side of things? Yeah, I drifted off there a little bit. I don't know what you're saying.

Yeah, of course. I think, I now see what you're dealing with Rob. Like, there's no way, I don't think, the way Australia have managed to keep the three guys Stark Hazelwood Cummins I don't see how they could do that

if they played for England the amount of cricket we play I do feel like there's more test cricket and yeah with the whiteboard stuff as well obviously all three of them have missed the recent champions trophy but I just think there's it comes down to management again

I think you like I said you can't have bowlers especially you look at our bowling attack at the minute and the guys that you think and hope will have a massive part to play in test series against India and Australia. You're looking at Mark Wood, Geoffrey Archer would be top of the list. And obviously they've had checkered history with injury

and the management side of it is then trying to make sure that they're fit at the right time and not playing too much but playing enough so they fit. So it is a huge balancing act. And obviously I think it's a... really important that around the, you know, we've had some great performances the last six months

with Gus Atkinson, you'd expect him to be in and around. Cars. Chris Wokes as well. And you hope there's other guys, there's going to be other guys pushing from underneath as well, putting pressure on those guys as well. Because I don't think you can get through

a 12 months or nine months that's this busy with just a core three or four bowlers. I think you need a bigger group. And is that what you've tried to do, Rob, put six, seven, eight fast bowlers together who, who, you know, you look at the bowlers who were taken to the champion's trophy, who are going to be, if possible, available as a group injuries permitting across all formats? Yeah, that's what you want.

You want every sort of base covered, can't, don't you? So you have your quick bowlers. I felt a year or two ago we were lacking. We had wooden arch and that was it. We obviously had Jimmy Broadie, Chris Wokes. We had a lot of guys in that 80 to 85 bracket, and you wanted a few guys that could complement that attack. And actually, it's gone pretty well.

We've got a number of bowlers coming through now. And so you've sort of got a few that you can plug in for lots of different roles. You've got like Chris Wokes, you guys who are brilliant with the new ball. If it's swinging in England, you've got Matt Potts, you've got Sam Cook, who I think's outstanding as well. But then you've got your quicker guys. you know, left armours in four-day cricket or test cricket is something that we need,

but that's why we're trying to really push Josh Hull forward quickly. Not so, I mean, even, I mean, we played him last year just to give him an experience of test cricket because you just understand the value of someone who can bowl left arm, ball 85 mile an hour with a bit of skill as well, but he could be, you know, he's a work in progress. So we're trying to cover every base, like the same with spinners. You know, English cricket has had very few spinners. They just haven't really had a chance for the last 10, 15 years. So we're trying to speed up their development with Bashir Hartley,

people like that, Jeff Fetohan, the leg spinner, Ron Ahmed. You're trying to fill in the gaps and make sure you've got a battery full of bowlers for every discipline. But did you feel you had that variety at the Champions Trophy, though? No, but we purposely did that really. I mean, what we felt was that let's just take India was slightly different. India, you know, we felt that we wanted that, we had a small squad for that. We had the Champions Trophy squad, to be honest.

And because we felt that our best way to go out there and win it on those flat pitches that doesn't take spin that much, different in Dubai, we might need a different squad for that if we'd got that far. But we just felt, do you know what, let's go out there. We've had, you know, left-arm seamers have bowled the most balls for us in Josh Butler's era as a captain. We've had that variation over the last two years and our wind percentage has fallen off a clip. it's not their fault you know but we just felt let's just pick our best bowlers so if that's

wood archer car sackinson saki mamu's been excellent we've got a deal rashid the leg spinner we'll pack it full of batting and we'll chase whatever and we'll get over past scores and we got underpass scores and didn't chase under pass scores so nothing none of it works if the batting doesn't click well can i can i can actually you mentioned sam cook um the perception is that you're just about pace that's the perception and the team that you picked in the champion's trophy was all right on quick bowling.

Sonny Baker, the young quick that's gone to Hampshire goes on the Lions tour. He bowled a couple of nice spells and watched

all the action that the Lions produced. He comes back and he gets a central contract or you can manage him under a contract. Sam Cuck was the pick of the bowlers.

Sam Cuck's got 311 first class wickets at 19 apiece. Why doesn't Sam Cuck get a contract? Yet Sonny Baker because he bowls Quick gets one. No, that's not true.

What Sonny Baker got was a development contract. Well, it's a contract that you've given him. You've given him a contract. He's got a development contract. I know you've got a central. You've got a development contract, which is for young players that you're trying to take control of at this stage of their career. It's not a full contract.

It's a contract that we pay 75% of their county deal, and the county pays 50%. Right? We don't feel that Sam Cook is in the development phase. We think that he is someone that is ready to go. And the question for Sam Cook and us, or not for Sam Cook for us to answer, when he goes into that bracket of wokes and pots

and Sam Cook is like, who's the best bowler to get us wickets with the new ball? And then you've got the other guys that can do it with the older ball. So it's not quite true that it's, we don't value that. All the guys on a development contract now, I think are pretty,

they're under 21, whatever is. You've got Sunny Baker 21, Josh Hull 20, I think. And you got John Turner, who's just out. He's just finished university. So it's not quite true that we don't think it's all about pace. It's the fact that we feel at 21 we need to take control to some degree

because we don't have full control of Sonny Baker and manage him and how we get him through. That's why he's out in Abu Dhabi. Whereas Sam Cooke, we're like, he don't need developing. He's ready to go. So when you, just to help people understand, when you put someone under development contract that gives you, some control, what is that control?

What areas can you develop them in and say, what you're not doing that or you are doing that? And what are the areas where actually you don't have control? Well, I think you're working with the county, so you're working with Hampshire. So, for example, they wanted him to go on their preseason trip, which I think he's going to join them for. But we had a few bowlers out in Abu Dhabi. there's like a smaller lions camp for people like Josh Tongue who quite frankly I've saw and

this isn't necessarily me but I've had enough of our bowlers not bowling lots you look at Jimmy and Brody they bowled more overs than anyone else and they got injured the least and this world we've lived in where everyone's got a like oh it's about their loads you can't bowl this can't do this you can only bowl this much what we get now with the development contracts is is that they get the resources of the ECB now so whether it's our S and Cs, whether it's our physios, whether it's anything to do with our medical team. If we want to go and do a camp at some point throughout the summer, then we can do it. If we can work with Hampshire and say, actually, we think he needs a break. We just get an

element more where we can, because county cricket as well is, it's great for games and all that, but international cricket's a different style now. So we can then try and upskill him. I sound like a proper administrator, but we can sort of upskill him as much as we can with the resources we have. Hence why, like Sam Cooke, we don't feel we need that with him because he's done his time. How much, I don't wish to make you sound like an old man or anything, but how much were your loads managed back in the day? Or did you just, did you just bought, I mean, obviously you had your injury problems early on, but, well, did you just bowl? As Rob says, you know, you just keep bowling and you didn't get injured. Yeah, well,

now, certainly at international level, even at county level, to some degree there's um you you wear GPS units so that every ball is logged every you know the speeds you bowl or speeds you run up at certainly the low going through your body all that sort of stuff is measured and kind of monitored quite closely obviously back when I started chappas as you just pointed out there probably wasn't that technology around so um it was more down to uh what the coach wanted from you what you felt as a bowler like if you felt like you needed to bowl a bit more than you could. And I suppose that's my point.

How much as it went forward, because of your experience as well, was it, well, whatever the GPS says, I feel okay. So I'm going to, but I can remember Arsumvenga talked to us about the red zone that Jack Wilshire was in at Arsenal. But the more he felt that the more you told

Jack Wilshire who's in the red zone, the more that would affect his mentality. When if you didn't tell him, he might just want to go and play and play and play. Yeah, I'd certainly think. think that's going to affect a few younger guys coming through as well if you tell them they're in a you know I've hear that said a lot as well with bowlers but I mean I feel like I must have spent most of my career in the red zone because you just want to bowl you want to get out there

and test cricket you're bowling 20 25 hours a day so it's inevitable you're going to put your body under strain and stress but I don't think you can sort of prepare for that it's it's almost you've got to do it to understand that your body can what your body can get through and sort of harden your body to it because you can do as much gym as you want you can bowl as much as you want in the nets there's nothing that's going to toughen you up

enough to play test cricket than actually playing out there in the middle when and just one other thing on the bowling because this has been debated a fair bit as well what's easier to switch to going from bowling in test matches to bowling in 50 over

or bowling in T-20s to then bowling in 50 overs? Oh, it's been a while since I've done it. I know, well, you're in the 100 draft, so you better get used to it. Yeah. I think it's really easy going from Red Bull to 100. We'll soon find out.

No, I think it's... I always found it really hard going from a test match series into a whiteball series, whether it's T20 or 50 overs because you spend all your time preparing for a test match trying to bowl the same ball, trying to bowl that good ball, for me it was an outswinger hitting the top of off-stump and the more predictable you are in whiteball cricket quite often the more you travel so you're then having to quickly work on your variations, your different

skills. You know there's obviously periods that are similar in 50 over cricket to test cricket, the opening period with the white ball probably changed a little bit in the last few years but you can still get away with if the ball's swinging you can still get away with just bowling a good ball moving through the air but generally you've got to be

constantly thinking about trying to stay one step ahead of the batter and I know you do that in test cricket but you've got a longer time to sort of think about it whereas it's literally like split second in the short form of the game. It was always harder like I said that that length

thing for me was always a difficult bit trying to suddenly find a Yorker from somewhere you've then got to spend you might have a week between test series and white ball series and you've got to spend a week practicing New Yorker. Do you know who you want your next whiteball captain to be, Rob?

I'm not going to rush it. I don't think there's a few options. There's a few different ways to do it as well whether you have a T20 captain a 50 over captain. I'm going to think pretty hard along with a few other people over the next few weeks and try and work out what we think the best thing is. I think, you know, someone like Harry Brooks,

Harry Brooke did brilliantly. And the main thing with captaincy, I think, is that you can perform with it as well. And when you look to the Australia series where he captained, he batted really well. He had a great time of it. I thought he capped him well. He's done it in the under-19s. You know, he's probably done it, you know, as a young kid. So I think that makes a difference.

But there's a few other options as well. I do think it's interesting with Stokes and whether 50 over cricket for him but then he's not, you know, he's out in Abu Dhabi at the moment getting himself back fit and there's obviously a risk with doing that. So there's a few things to try and decide

but I also don't think it's one to rush really. Is that also, you don't need to rush it because of time frame? Yeah, a little bit. I mean, yeah, you just want to, we want to know where Stokes he's going to be at really. It's hard to make a decision with people when they're not, you know, they're not, that they just started running.

And we think, and, you know, as you know with injuries, it looks like he's on track to come back and be able to perform fully as an all-rounder for us. And then there is a world, I think, you know, and you have to look at what he's looking to do. You know, a lot of our players now want to commit to English cricket more so than anything else.

And the world in which he does test cricket and 50 over cricket, the schedule does change a little. little bit you know there's i think three fifty over games against the west indies then there's the test series against uh india obviously there's a one-off test against zimbabwe

which we're looking to get him ready for he's not going to play the hundred then it's three games against south africa i think then it's out to new zealand for three more games then it's the ashes so there's a word in which that can actually complement his game as well but these are all decisions that we have to try and weigh up they're not simple rob just just on on ben stokes it was only a couple

of weeks ago that he pulled out the 100 to manage his body. So you can understand the England kind of supporters out there going, oh, wait a minute, we don't want to see him with the white ball game. Just want him to focus on test match cricket. Have you personally had a conversation with Ben? And if that conversation took place, what was his response when you said, is there any chance, Benjamin? No, no, I haven't really spoken to him about it, to be honest. You know, I've sort of said to him the other day, I think I did the media, the sort of roundtable with the written. and journalist and says, oh, by the way, I've just said, you know, you're in consideration for the white ball gig and he sort of then puts the thumbs up emoji and stuff like that

as if to say, okay. Not that I've offered him that, you know, I don't want that to be that. But they're the, they're the sort of conversations that we have. That's what we, you know, we look at, you know, every single series we do, we look at, we review, we try and work out how to get better, even when we're winning. You know, we had a great start to test cricket. We thought, right, okay, but we have to then refresh and try and try and work out the next little bit, you know, so you just don't want to be reacting to us not playing well. You want to always be evolving. And we're always trying to think that. We're trying to think of what the best thing to do for the white ball team. Because I also,

I can't sit here and say, like, yeah, you know, I've had to focus on test cricket because of the schedule. And then when you don't, when the schedule eases to then go, yeah, but whiteball cricket still doesn't matter. You still want to give them the best person to do it. Can you? Just So just on, you mentioned, you know, our England players are more focused on playing for England now. Harrybrook pulled out the IPL. Now, I look at someone like Harry, but also I look at the England team and the way that they've played against spin in particular. In the last couple of years, whether it's the Indian series in the test matches where they lost 4-1, to what happened in Pakistan when the bull started to spin to what's just happening in India

and what's just happening in the Champions Trophy. I know it's great that he's focusing on English cricket. but I look at Harry Brook as a player and think what would have been best for Harry Brooke potentially would have been to go to the IPL to play more games against spin? Was there any conversation that you had with them or was it just his decision that decided

he didn't want to go to Winder for the IPL? No, no, I made it very clear to the players that if they go into the IPL this year then it's on them if they're going to pull themselves out. Once you've made yourself available, then it's down to you. Last year I did it and pulled some of those guys out. But what Harry's done is because he's been our busiest cricketer.

He's one of the biggest cricketers in the world. And I'm sure that there is a world in where that would have been good for him to go out to the IPO and to practice playing, even if you're just practicing it in the nets. But there's also a world in where he's played a hell of a lot of cricket. And actually, he's got a hell of a lot of cricket to come. So I commend that decision really on him to do that. But it's not something that he won't be trying to remedy. It's just that juggling act of making sure that you're fresh to go into what is one of our

biggest summers or next years really as you say will be the defining moment for this sort of organisation he's um he's played or he's had 89 appearances across all formats as harry brook since his test debut in september 22 which does make him england's busiest cricketer that is a lot of cricket yeah it is a lot of cricket and um we you know we touched on this earlier now that especially for an English cricketer there's so many opportunities for you there's loads of international cricket there's the hundred

county cricket and obviously franchise cricket around the world and I think there will be more decisions like this to be made along the way for certainly for someone like Harry who has you know has been a way for a long period of time this winter with the England teams and certainly after a tour

or the India tour and the champion's trophy that he's just had, probably not played as well as he would have liked, and he maybe just be feeling the brunt of that and wants to get away from it and make sure that you can get his game into check for what will be a really big summer for him. This is, I think this may be impossible for you to answer,

but you've mentioned all the different options that are available to cricketers nowadays, right? Country cricket, IPL, Big Bash, 100, tests, one days, T-12. what do you think the modern cricketer want? Like if you say, no, but it's interesting, Michael, isn't it? Because if you say to her, if I said to any footballer in the Premier League, what do you want?

They'd say, well, to win the Premier League or to win the FA Cup or, you know. And if I said to a, I don't know, if I said to a cricketer now, in your career, what do you want? I don't know whether there is a standard answer now. there probably won't be I think you know in years gone by even sort of 10 years ago I would have said most English cricketers would have said

they want to play test cricket for England as like a the peak the pinnacle now it might be they want to play for England to represent England in some form winner world cup maybe but I think those

answers are getting less and less you know there were fewer and fewer players actually saying that that is the pinnacle because of the the opportunities that there are around the world and I know for the fact that counties are battling as well at the minute trying to get players to commit to playing county cricket

to play in all formats for counties because of the amount of franchise cricket there is going on around the world I mean you will sit down with players Rob and presumably say what do you want and you will I would imagine and they'll say a bigger contract I'm guessing but aside from that I'm guessing you may get a variety of answers now

I think in general people start out wanting to play test cricket for England I think that that hasn't changed I think there's a I mean if you're just a guy who's got who's a complete swiper who's not really focused on that then maybe but I think in general most players want to play for England in test cricket that's still the absolute pinnacle I think the biggest difference from when Jimmy started and Vaughney and I were playing is that we never had any other option you know like so now

If you start want to play test cricket and then after five or six games you might think, do you know what? This is too hard. I'll go and try and take a franchise world. You know, and I feel that. But I also feel that English cricket there's so much optimism I have for it.

And that was one of the points of the 100. I know it's a very divisive thing, but I was always of the opinion that for English cricket to keep their best players in their country and playing in our system, you get a brilliant central contract. The top central contract is a good amount of money, but it's only going to go up if the broadcast

deal goes up. It's a fixed pot of money and it's not easy to see that going up unless the broadcast deal goes up. So then it's about the hundreds. So now we have a short form competition that the salaries in that are going to go up. So then all of a sudden, I think you're well within your right, you know, if you're a cricketer now, you're probably looking at a world in where you know, you're playing in England for England, you're playing in the hundred, and the IPL and then counties or any of these can have the right side you know we don't think this one's right for you in the whether the i whatever is in Dubai or you know south africa and i think that gives will give us the control of our players and i think we're going

into that world which is a good thing you know it's been a bit of a free-for-all and it's been very hard for counties to tell their players that no no you you can't go off and play in all these competitions when, you know, they might get 80,000 pounds to go and play for, you know, two or three weeks and a T-10, when the county's planning them 80,000 pounds for 12 months work. And I think we're into that world now. It's been such a good story, I think, with the 100 sale, you know, nearly a billion pounds worth of value, 500 million coming into the game.

We've got to make the most of that now. But you could also argue, couldn't you, Rob, that given some of the investment that's coming in the 100, the power goes to those that have invested. And if they go, actually, you're not going to play country cricket, you're going to sign a 12-month contract with us and play major league cricket, and you're going to play

the 100, and you're going to play the IPL, you're going to do this, and the counties will have no power there. I mean, that's the, that's the other side of the argument. No, I don't think so, because I still think that the ECB will maintain that element to not be able to say that they can do that. You know, you look at what the

ECB have done. This wasn't part of sort of England men, but the ECB, Richard Gould, I thought they were right, where they actually said, no, no, you can't go and play in the PSL during our summer. You can't go and play in the MLC unless, you know, I can't remember all the various rules to it. So I think that we're now going into a world, but we will be able to control our players in that regard. And it's not in those owners' interests to decimate English cricket. You still need to produce them. You still need the decent system for those players to make the 100 as good as possible.

So I don't worry about that. I don't think that's the world we're going to. In terms of the contract, I think the 100 sale will bring more opportunities for county pros to get very, very good county contracts, which will be linked to the 100 ball team. And potentially the 100 ball teams, i.e. IPL franchise owners that have leagues in, you know, South Africa, elsewhere, it may be that county players, I'll bring someone like Sam Cuck into the equation. it may be that he'll get a fantastic

counter deal and I know Essex will be desperate to keep hold of him and this is where it gets a little bit unfair that the bigger clubs will get the better players and that player

Sam Cuck for instance might get a deal at a county that will include a hundred ball deal and in the winter he might get an opportunity to play in the franchise league

that that 100 ball franchise owner owns as well so I see it only being a great thing for cricketers going forward but it's an ever changing world, the cricketing landscape, if you look at what's happening in the last five years, if you look at what's happening in the last 15 years, it's always changing, it's always

moving forward, and I don't think we're the right for to decide where it'll be in 15 years. I've got no clue. Well, yeah, well, I don't think it'll get much disagreement there, but that, I suppose, if you take Michael's example, then that means there will be in, and he's right, smaller counties will be fuming at the example that he has given, but for the player they will get more experience in different conditions

if that scenario comes true. Yeah and again we have to wait and see what happens with that sort of thing but if that did happen yeah it'd be great for a few players but then there's still guys that won't get 100 contracts and we'll still need to play for the smaller counties so I think there's

you know ideally I'd like to see it actually get spread across the whole of county cricket and make sure that I do feel like we need to keep the standard of county cricket, four-day cricket, T20 cricket as high as we possibly can and getting the best players to play that.

I think that's obviously the way to do it. But at the end of it all, is it possible to reel India in, Rob? I've asked you that with 20 seconds to go. Real India into what, as a team or to get their size play? No, I mean, to catch them up. Bearing in mind their dominance at the moment, across the last three ICC tournaments,

they've won 23 out of 24. Michael's made the point about the BCCI and their influence and so on and so forth. How do you reel them in? No, look, it's going to be tough, especially in their conditions, but I think that's what you've got to try and do, isn't it really? There's always been a team that's dominated. You know, it's time for us to catch them up. Rob, thank you very much for being with us this evening. You haven't given away any secrets in your wife's office, so you're fine. Thank you very much.

Michael, James, thank you. See you both. Good luck in the draft. Thank you very much.