Test Match Special - Root steps down as England captain.

Episode Date: April 15, 2022

Jonathan Agnew is joined by former England spinners Phil Tufnell and Vic Marks to reflect on the resignation of Joe Root as England captain. We also hear from two men who know Root very well, Yorkshire’s interim director of cricket Darren Gough and former England captain Michael Vaughan.

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that Joe Root has announced his resignation as England's captain. After 64 tests, series wins, South Africa away, India at home, two series wins against Sri Lanka, no ashes, of course. But in those 64 tests, he won 27 of them, which is actually a record. And quite remarkably, I think, he scored 1,400s in his time. as England's captain. All that responsibility on his shoulders without much support at the other end. So I've got Vic Marks with me and I've got Phil Tufton with me and we're going to chat away through, first of all, I guess, that news, the ramifications and of course who I guess might be the person

that succeeds him. But just an early thought, let's start with you Tufters. English cricket at the moment. I mean, I luckened it earlier to like an old tanker, massive tanker that's just drifting away in the wrong direction. There's nobody in charge. There's void wherever you look. they've won one of their last 17 test matches and now the captain has gone so what a situation for whoever these new personnel are going to be to inherit Yeah and I think it needs to be done quickly

doesn't it as well because as you say it's just drifting along at the moment and now Joe's stepped down I think one thing he's got to say about Joe that it never affected his performance is you say he's gone from strength to strength with the bat hugely passionate about the job

loyal to his teammates would do anything for him and I think looking back he didn't really I don't think he really sort of got the support really I think he was a bit unlucky in a funny sort of way I mean you said there he's record speaks to itself you know longest standing captain most games most wins and things but you know that the white ball reset

sort of everything was concentrated on that little bit you know and perhaps sort of test match cricket was pushed to the you know the back post so to speak And then also COVID and things like this. So he must have been sitting there kind of, Cricke, O'Reilly. I've been dealt a bit of a rough hand. But, no, hugely passionate guy, hugely proud guy,

loved captain in his country and well done. And now it's time to sort of, you know, go and sit at first slip and have a bit of... Yeah, and pile on the runs. And I'm sure he's going to be a great foil for the next captain, use all of his experience. Victor, any great surprise? Well, the timing was a bit of a surprise,

but I'm viewing it a bit like Tuftford's actually it's almost a good news story I think it was appropriate for him to stand down and I don't think he could have been pushed because there's nowhere and around to push him and I think it's right initially to focus on the fact that he's never going to be regarded as the greatest England captain we've ever had even if he gets another go at it

but he wasn't bad and he was totally devoted to that job he's done it over a huge period right They were great dignity. There were moments I remember in Australia when we were losing, but the game was going the wrong way, all those nasty incidents. And Joe's, I remember Joe saying, I feel responsible for the behaviour of my team. When Steve Smith was saying, well, the umpires didn't bother, so it must have been all right. That sort of thing.

So I got a lot of time for him as a person. I think he's done that job to the best of his ability. I also think it will help English cricket actually, one little bit of clarification. and he is by a massive margin the best player in that England team in fact he will go down as one of the best players England have had since the war and what they desperately need from him now

are those runs and I think the chance of him scoring more runs now are probably enhanced it's interesting I mean he could have resigned after the ashes they had this red ball reset so called which I think everyone got a bit fed up of that to be honest that phrase but they did They tried to move on, dropped Broaden Anderson. We don't know how much involved Root was in that decision, but they did that.

And then, I mean, I was there that last day in Grenada and it all fell in a heap. I mean, I'm not sure really there's any way out of it from that point on. Well, my guess is that he kept the job after the ashes, for one very good reason which we'll get onto, is it's very difficult to establish who should do the job next. If there have been a really strong candidate floating around in that team post-ashes, I suspect they would have arranged for him to go or he would have gone. But he just, partly he kept going because there wasn't anyone else, obvious. Yeah, but then also I think that's the mark of the man, you know.

Could have easily have gone after the ashes, as you said, but then, you know, sat down there, brushed himself off and said, no, you know, I want to carry on. I want to take this team forward and I want to, you know, I want to try and make something and sort of show the right path for English cricket. But I then think that, you know, after the West Indies, that was perhaps just a step Well, no. I mean, the West Indies ultimately was a failed expedition. I mean, I was watching it from a fair distance, but England played on two flat pitches where it had been a disgrace if we've been lost the games. And so people scored runs. It was a batsman's sort of haven. And then we got to the last match, a spiky match where we was always going to decide the series and we fell short. So there was no great obvious progress on the field. I was interested in Joe's statement about where he mentions his family very closely

and he is a big family man but it just shows, demonstrates I think, how big this job is and we'll go on to who might replace him but it is not just a question of leading 10 other blocs out onto a field I mean all the background stuff the responsibility that goes with it

just the 24 hours a day that you are living that job Yeah well I've been through a few captains when I've played and you do see it physically start to, you know, the shoulders start to get a bit stooped and the grey hair start to appear. So, um... You never shut the door on it, I mean, it's all the time in your life.

No, and it's great when things are going well, but then inevitably there are going to be downs as well, and it does. And you were looking at Joe, you said yourself, that he looked a bit, you know... Oh, he looked gaunt. He looked absolutely careful on him. Yes, that's right. So I think he's probably sat down and said, well, listen, I've, you know, I've given it my all, as Vic said earlier on. And, you know, I just don't think perhaps there's, you know, a lot more for me to be done apart from to go out there and score the run. He will. He'll go back into the ranks and he'll

that character will come back and I'm sure he'll score a stack of runs. But what do England do now? I mean this it's this crazy situation in which at the moment there's no one in place who is going to make this decision. Do you fancy a go, John? Well, he might as well toss the hat in. Chairman, you can do what you like. Do what you like.

But bear in mind that the managing director if the names that we see in the hat aren't proven to be correct, is likely of somebody who's never done this before. And what a decision. They've got to appoint a coach and a captain, having never been involved in anything like this before. We think, if it is someone like Rob Key, for instance,

it's a huge decision. Well, you're right, but I have this notion that sometimes we imbue on the captaincy too much, and we expect we've got to find someone to take us forward over the next three or four years. Well, that's not going to work. We aren't going to find that. So you've got to look.

I would appoint a captain, or once we've got a cricket director, blah-de-blah. And I think, in a bit of a throwback, I'd say, I want you to do the New Zealand series. Three tests, three tests. And I mentioned this to you the other night. One of England's greatest captains, your old mate, Ray Inningworth,

was appointed as a pure stock gap. Cowdery broke his leg or something. And everyone thought, worth the perfect stop back. He's 37. He's a borderline test cricketer, but he's a very shrewd old boy. Of course, he did it so well that he ended up doing it for three or four years and won the ashes. Now, I'm not saying that whoever gets appointed is going to necessarily do that, but you sometimes get surprised as well. So I don't think you should, one should panic about, oh, the future of English cricket, what are we going to do in 2024? Let's just

try and sort out what you're doing the first half of 2022. And things will happen that surprise you. You could have put off a four tests. You could do the three New Zealand tests and that one-off India test. And then you can have a, there's a break and you can have them just, okay, let's see where we are. There's only one person, isn't there? Come on, there's only one person

who's got to be Ben Stokes. But is that going to, there's always that worry. There's a fitness worry about it by the way. Well, there you go. I mean, if you're thinking of Stuart Broad, you know, bowlers, crykey, they can get injured. I mean, it is a bit of a worry. But, you know, I can see Ben Stokes,

but is that going to take anything away from his sort of cavalier sort of way he goes about playing the cricket? You don't want to them lump all of that weight on his shoulders. I mean, go through both of them, Flintov. Peterson, he put him in there, these huge characters. It never worked. Well, no, I think it's harder to go outside now because in the old days they plucked out Illy and they would plucked out Mike Dinesse more or less. But Brearley was in the team

But he was in the team But he, you know Always screws it Yeah, handy decision But it's more difficult to do that now When you've got, you know, the lion structure And all these, you know, development groups It's hard to go out and say

Well, who won the county championship last year Warwickshire, Will Rhodes, England captain Well, I think that's asking a bit much So I don't think you can go out, so I think they're James Vince is someone That's a name is being thrown around but he's had two goes at test cricket now. I mean, curiously, I think there are three candidates, all inside,

all very flawed in several ways. Ben Stokes don't know whether he wants to do it, and his body's falling apart a bit, but, you know, Stuart Broad. Captain England, quite a lot, actually, in T20 cricket, but this will be a slightly different challenge. And the other one, I toss out, but you'll stare at me as a West Country bumpkin, Josh Butler. If he was in the team, he'd be a very strong candidate.

He has been part of that team. And obviously he was not in the Caribbean, and he's had a difficult time. But nonetheless, he has qualities. He has leadership qualities, and he's played 50-odd test matches. He knows what it's about. So I would toss him in as a candidate as well. A long-termer type candidate as well. Well, yeah.

I mean, you're still slightly plucking at straws, but he has got some of the attributes you want, and he is respected within that. group and he's a bright bloke but trouble is he can't quite bat as we'd like him to um so i can't go beyond that at the moment but if you say to yourself and you think oh this is hopeless but if you do say to yourself hang on a minute we're talking about at the moment three or four test matches and let's just see how it goes yeah another another problem and we've we are used to this in the recent years is that there is no breeding ground for captains anyway i mean joe root i think a captain yorkshire once

but Michael, Alastair Cook and I don't think Captain Essex at all Absolutely I mean it is an issue though I mean how do you learn How do you It's not like the railingworth days When he'd kept him for so long

They just don't do it anymore So you really are having to Having to take a punt toughers On who it could possibly be Absolutely and you've got a look You know a character A little bit of experience as well But you know cricket is one of the only team games

Isn't it where the captain is such a huge part of the side, isn't it? I mean, they make all the decisions on the field, they make decisions off the field. I know that that's sort of been taken away slightly now. I mean, back in mind, the captain did everything. Yeah, but so they've got to have that little bit of experience and that little bit of sort of cricketing know-how and nouse.

You know, you just can't go out there and pick anyone to be a captain because it's tough, it's hard work. I'll feel this, though. you've been around a very long time in this game. Have you ever experienced English cricket in quite such a state at the moment where there is nobody? Yes, I think so, yeah, yeah.

I mean, what about Deerod in 1988? You were just coming to the end of your career then. And, you know, four captains in one summer, Embers did a game. Chris Cowdery got plucked out. Gucci said he didn't want to do it, and then he sort of changed his mind at the end. and Gat had to go.

So I think that's, you know, I think that's quite a good precedent. They didn't have quite so many people in charge as many people post to fill. I mean, it is bizarre that we find ourselves without all these decision makers. These people were in place to make the appointments. I mean, the people haven't been appointed

to make the appointment. Well, that is true. But nonetheless, I think actually that was the year without wanting to personalise it too much. It was, 1988. and this is another stat that affects me but I think in that summer

I was the 34th man to play for England because I played in a one-day international towards the end of the season I was the 34th person to be picked for England it's not one I'm very proud of them so we have had moments of chaos

I think back to the point as this will wrap it up I think it does feel the right decision for route to have made absolutely and because I don't want to invest so much in the campaign so you know I could envisage a situation where in three or four years time

when Joe Root scored another 4,000 test runs and we're stuck for someone. Joe, could you take him out for this series and he'd be well equipped to do it, curiously. I'm not advocating he'd definitely come back, Joe, but, you know, that could happen. So I think this is good, essentially, this is good news. One minor clarification amidst all the fog

that surrounds England. I think that's unlikely. There we go, anyway. A huge, not just a blank sheet of paper, there's three or four blank sheets of paper that have to be, well, stared at by somebody. We don't know who yet, and all these positions filled.

So it's a fascinating time, it's an interesting time. And there's something about a lot of debate around about English cricket and its future. Once again, as we build up to the first test match against New Zealand. Thank you very much to Vic Marks and Phil Tuffnell. Now, Kevin Howells has been speaking to Yorkshire's interim director of cricket. Darren Goff. Despite everything, it's still a bit of a shock, I think, to hear and receive the news this morning. But I just wonder whether, to start with Darren.

You think Joe has made the right decision? well it's his decision so he'll believe it's the right one me personally from being in that dressing room and seeing Joe's leadership skills and how well he's respected by the players and the coaching staff it surprised me this morning I was there having breakfast and I saw it come up and breaking news so I was surprised I think 27 test wins as captain and the amount of times

he's basically carried England's batting attack during that period the last 17 matches which everybody he's focusing on these last 17-1 win. You've got to have the team around you to get them wins as well and I think you could argue some of the selections have not been right, you could argue some injuries have gone against

him, the timing of everything's gone against him, and losing against Australia, I know that people always judge a captain on how he does against Australia and I think that's wrong. There's been plenty of guys who have captained England who have not won

an Asher series. In the best captain I ever playing under when Nassar is saying he never won a Nash's series so we are very blind in that in judging captains on just beat in Australia I think he's been a good captain for England yes you can argue any captain at any stage in their career would have made a mistake on the field of course might have made the wrong call at the toss of the coin or bat when they should have bowed but I think overall I think he's a terrific leader but I think he's being judged on the last 17 games. Let me put the question

this way for May then. If it's the right decision for Joe, we hope it is he genuinely believes it's the right decision for him. Is it the right decision for England at this stage? Well I don't know. I don't know what's going on behind the scenes because I think we're all due to say whether it be a new coach, a new director of

cricket be appointed. All I can think is but someone's in place and they've had that conversation with him and Joe decided it's not for him. That could have happened or it could purely be Joe's had time to come home, spend time with his family, assess what's gone on this winter,

and say, nah, it's time to go. So you could look at it like that. But I believe, obviously, Ben Stokes is a terrific cricketer, and again, another strong personality who is almost like a player that is infectious from everyone else. He's a natural leader as in within a dressing room. To actually be that person in the dress room is a great leader, to be out on the field, doing everything,

as well as being the best all rounder in the world it's going to be very difficult for him but he's the natural successor there is other guys who would have been in for a shout but they're not in the team at the moment they've been dropped or they're not in the team so it's going to be a very difficult choice to be the captain well the natural one is obviously

Ben Stokes but it's very very big call to give Ben the job 64 tests in charge a record number of tests what's the legacy for Joe as in England well they've just said it 27 test wins and during that period

he kept getting 100 after 100 after 100 I think he's been a terrific leader he led from the front and I'm disappointed his step down

but if he feels as though it's the right choice for him so be it I just hope England get it right in the next appointment now as captain

I think it's an hard act to follow but if you're the captain coming in one winning 17 you're probably thinking it's not a bad time to take over as captain

you've touched on this just explore a little bit more this idea of whether he's had a fair crack of the whip. I mean, 64 tests, the record number, so you could argue he has. But in more recent times, when the results haven't been going, COVID,

obviously he'll be involved with the selection, but not always what everything else is going on in the background with the organisation and the build-up to that selection. The quality of players he's had at his disposal. Do you think he's had a fair crack of the whip in recent times? Well, like you say, you've kind of said it. 64 matches, he's had a fair crack at it, I would say.

He's done brilliant to be captain of a very big. England that many times but I think what's happened the last few years with COVID and everything I think all of them have probably could argue to have been treated harshly whether it be Giles whether it be Rout whether it be Silverwood during those times in bubbles to be a leader I would would say has been pretty pretty difficult and in that time the problem is they probably said it was all about going to the ashes and competing and possibly winning That was always this mission statement from when they took over in 2019. And to go to the ashes and be as poor as we were, wasn't ideal for him.

And then to lose in the West Indies. But again, I think you only have to look. There's other factors in this, injuries to Wood and Archer, two unbelievable fast bowlers who can knock away any team. You've seen the power of pace in this game when Harris Ralph got it right for two overs. it makes a difference and to lose them for Joe Root was massive then for Broden Anderson not to be on a tour when they've got over a thousand test wickets

yeah there's been some strange decisions I don't know who's responsible for them but I think he's been a good leader for England yes we can sit here and argue about odd fielding position here and there and the odd decision here and there if you're captained 64 times you're going to make mistakes you are going to make mistakes in any game

any captain in any era from England point of view finally you could say perhaps it's bad luck if you lose a chairperson along with an MD along with an international coach and now you've lost an England test captain

are we now moving into a little bit of a chaotic situation I think he's chaotic I think it is and we've seen other few chaotic instances that are happening around the country at this moment in time but I think we're English cricket now it looks like it almost is a clean slate they're starting from the beginning

they've got some big calls to make now I'd like to think if they're going to do this they pick players not on their reputations as names but if they're going to do this now it's a perfect opportunity to look around the county game and pick players who deserve to be picked. Whether there's debitants involved in that, this is the perfect opportunity

to now select an England side on pure ability and not on names. So no more Anderson, no more broad. Well, on ability, they're still the best. So when it comes down to ability, if they had underperformed, broad, when you look at him in Australia or his last test matches for England,

yes, on pitches that were lively, and you wouldn't mind bowling on them, I think he performed. Anderson, whenever he's played for England, I can't remember the last time he let England down. And I think if they're bowling well, which we don't know yet, because for some reason,

they've been rested the first two games of the season after not playing since January. Again, not something I would have made. I'm sure them two are itching to get out there and show on these pitchers at this time of the year, but they can still perform. But come next week, I think Broden Anderson will be playing for their counties,

and I would expect strong performances. But if they start the season and they're taking wickets, which I expect them to do, they get picked. If they're not taking wickets, they don't get picked. It's as simple as that for me. Well, there's one man who knows Joe Rout very well, of course, in Daringoff. Here's another, and a former England captain in himself, Michael Vaughn. I think it's been a time that he's given the job everything that you would have expected from someone like Joe Rout, completely dedicated to the position of being the...

England captain, a great ambassador for the game. I've said it many, many times. I just think he is the player, the person that, you know, all young people should try and follow. He's such a great ambassador for the sport. But it hasn't been without its difficulties. And, you know, I look at his tenure and think, you know, back to many of us as ex-England captains, whether it's Alice de Cook, Andrew Strauss, Andrew Strauss, myself, Nassar Hussein, Mike Atherton. And I don't think he's had a great hand. I don't think the ECB have helped him out at all in terms of what they've delivered for the Red Bull team under Joe Root's watch. His first two and a half years was pretty much geared towards him being the test captain, but they were desperate to win the World Cup in 19.

All the eggs were put in the white ball basket. It worked. He got them that World Cup. Then it was about the ashes after that, because the ashes in 19 was a drawn series, but one that you would have expected England to put up a better fight, but the kind of tune and throwing between the red ball and the white ball teams around that period made it, you know, looked like a bit of a disjointed effort. They played an Ashish series just after a World Cup final. And then it was all about the World, the Ashish series in Australia, and then COVID hit. And it's been very difficult for all teams around the world to manage the COVID situation. And, you know, it's inevitable that

it's come to this. I saw in the, in Australia, I certainly saw in the West Indies as an England captain that he was drained. You could see that in his face. You could see that in his interviews. And, you know, the one thing that he can do, he can walk away knowing that he's giving it absolutely everything. He'll be disappointed that he's not got an Ashes series to his name. But, you know, I think now he can become, you know, continue to be the senior pro in the

team. What are England going to miss? I don't think they're going to miss a great deal. I do think they're going to get his runs. he's going to keep scoring a huge amount of runs which he's going to be great for the side he's going to continue to be this great role model within the team, a senior pro

and he's going to be able to do that without the nonsense of the captaincy so I think he's in a nice position now obviously you're not going to change your mind about the fact that you feel it's the right thing this decision but bearing on what you've just talked about you know all the influences the outside influences

if you'd like and everything that didn't go his way do you feel the frustration for him that perhaps he did initially say that he wanted to carry on because he feels that perhaps a reset at different environment, he could do a better job? Oh yeah I saw from that interview at the end of

the Caribbean, that was an interview of him believing everything that he was saying. I could just see in his face and in his voice that he was just saying what possibly people wanted to hear. You know, he's also going to be honest with himself. There's been a huge amount of mistakes.

You know, he can't just blame the kind of the ECB in terms of their positioning of the Red Bull team you know COVID hasn't been an issue but selectorily England have got it wrong for quite a while tactically there's been quite a few

occasions of recent times where Joe himself has just not managed to grab the game and get England over the line in tight situation so he'll own up to those kind of mistakes but you know I think it is the right time when you're bringing in a new director you're bringing in a new coach

I think a new captain is probably what the test match team need. This red ball reset that I keep here and it's just up to nonsense. I just don't get this PR kind of slogan that we keep here in the red ball reset. That's just an admittance of guilt that the ECB

have took their eye off test match cricket for quite a while and it won't be just by saying it out into the public domain that there's going to be a red ball reset that suddenly it's going to change. It's going to take a lot of hard work, a lot of dedication, a few changes and tweaks here and there. And I just think with a new captain at the helm

and a new coach and a new director of cricket, it probably gives the test match team a clean slate to try and move forward. But from the players that they have in the situation that they find themselves, I don't see it being a quick fix. I don't suddenly see England racing up the rankings towards that top end.

I don't see them hammering teams at home like we used to. I think it's going to take a little bit of time for the test match team to start to be remodeled and just to get more competitive. I mean, the one thing that I'll look back at, at Joe's rain and probably one that he'll look back and think, oh, what went wrong with the mentality side of the team

because there were so many times where over the last few years, this England test match team have just collapsed, you know, collapsed in the heat from nowhere, particularly with the batting hand. And that's not down to the captain, that's down to the individuals that have been batting for him. But, you know, when you're the leader of the side, you know, you want to kind of judge your team

when it gets tough and can you get through tough situations. And for quite a long period now, this test match team has been one that once they've been put under pressure, whether it's been from a little bit of movement in the pitch, a bit of a swing, a bit of spin, once they lose one wicket, you always have felt, Kev,

that, you know, they're going to lose another and another, and there's going to be a collapse, and that's been a common trend of the test match team, and that's something that the new captain, coach, and director are going to have to get right quickly. You're going for Ben Stokes? Yep, I don't see anyone else. I mean, it's not that I don't think Ben's going to

and potentially be a very good England captain. There just isn't anybody else out there. You could say Stuart Broad for a short period. The interim, that seems to be quite a trendy saying in sport these days. But I just think in Ben Sto's, you've got someone that clearly has got a very smart cricket brain. He's going to give it everything. He's certainly going to have the respect of the players around him. I guess the kind of the turmoil that an all-rounder can give you as a captain

is that all-rounder might try and do everything himself. but that's when you need a good captain, a good coach around you, a good senior set of players and someone like Joe Root, actually I think now becomes very, very important for Ben Stokes if he is the captain because it would be someone like Joe

and they're very close as a partnership to just whispering Ben's ear when he's trying to do too much. And I think someone like Ben, his downfall might be that if he takes over it, he wants to do everything. And that includes selection, coaching, organization, future planning. and it's times like that

that you've got to have someone around you say look Ben just concentrate on what you're really good at and that's out in the field making decisions and trying to just give us your performance and if he can perform like we know he can he'll lead the team by example so it's Ben Stokes but with some concern over workload

increased pressure and you say you know Ben may want to take on the job and do everything well quite frankly at the moment Michael he would have to do everything because there's nobody else in position to do it. How do you view the ECB position that not only has it now lost a test captain

it hasn't got a chief selector it hasn't got an MD of England cricket it hasn't got a chair there at the ECB as well. Have you ever known a time like this? No and I've never known a time Kevin when I've looked at a test match team and realistically

I can't see one future England captain. You know you can go back over the years there was Michael Allerton that came through he got the the tag effect you know I came through there was Triscothic around then there was Strauss around then there was

Alistocut then there was Joe Rout at the minute I don't see there's the likes of Zach Crawley there's Olly Pope that are good young players but I don't see them having that tag of feck at the minute and that's a real concern for the test match side you know Ben Stokes

is everything in a person and a player that you want but you will need a lot of support around them because when you've got that all round a tag and they've got that persona that they think and more often than not they can they can do everything but you will need some smart people around him just to say look ben just just don't try and do everything because your mind and your mentality will frazzly if you try and do everything you'll just need a little bit of a senior core around him just to give him a few little

pointers but i don't see anyone else i honestly don't see anyone else that could take the position be guaranteed of his place in the side we're in an area where there's a lot of difference happening. There's a lot of change in the game. You know, a few years ago, you'd have never thought that someone like Pat Cummings could make an outstanding Australian captain being a fast bowler because you'd be worried about his workload. Well, within six months, I've seen him, Pat Cummings, an outstanding captain, an outstanding leader. And who's to say in six months' time? We won't be saying exactly the same

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