Test Match Special - Shaun Udal on living with Parkinson’s and India 06

Episode Date: February 28, 2024

Former Hampshire and England offspinner Shaun Udal joins Daniel Norcross to talk about England’s tour of India in 2006, including the famous “Ring of Fire” win in Mumbai. Plus they discuss how his life has changed since he was diagnosed with Parkinson’s Disease in 2019.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Bring more gear, carry more passengers, face greater challenges. Welcome to the world of Defender, with seating up to eight, ample cargo space and legendary off-road capability. It's built to make the most of every adventure. Learn more at landrover.ca. BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. You're listening to the TMSP podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Today I'm joined by a former England, Hampshire and Middlesex spinner, a man who made his

ODI debut in 1994 but had to wait a further 11 years before gaining his four test caps on England's tours of Pakistan and India. He starred in England's first test victory in India for 21 years, famously picking up the wicket of Satchin Tendulka, and after retiring from first class cricket for the second time in 2010, he was subsequently diagnosed with Parkinson's disease. in 2019. It's Sean Udol. Welcome.

Morning, Daniel. We are in your office here, outside of Basingstoke, and we're surrounded by Kit. I'm with Henry Moran today, and we're like kids in a candy store. I put logos and emblems on anything they want for, they're done for in terms of of wear or uniform. The first thing that obviously strikes us is you're working and you're active. And when you've got that diagnosis of Parkinson's, It was what was in 2019.

It's actually five years ago tomorrow. Wow. Talk to us about what that was like hearing that. Yeah, it was totally unexpected, as you could have properly imagined. I hadn't felt myself for a couple of years with the, I had some pains from my neck down the side of my right arm, my little finger and my ring finger on the right hand were shaking. And I just had a neck operation about two years before. And they thought it was the vertebrae from that, pushing on my nervous system down my arm was making it shape.

But I didn't feel right. I was having all these electrolysis treatment and tests and nothing was, I still got these shakes and I was starting to feel a bit weird. I couldn't do my shoelaces up properly and stuff like that. And I then was funny enough here at the office one day in the winter and didn't feel right. My balance was going, starting to struggle and I was getting head pains and stuff. And I got to the top of the stairs out here and don't remember anything.

I fell down the stairs. 16 stairs of the office. I don't want to pull down. No, you don't. And I woke up on the way to hospital being blue-lighted by an ambulance in a neck brace and couldn't move. My clothes had been cut off because I had a fellow down the bottom of the stairs. And that forced a load of tests to be done when I was in hospital.

Anyway, when I came out of hospital about six weeks afterwards, so I got a letter, unbelievably a letter, informing me that I had the Parkinson's. Wow. So it wasn't a phone call. No appointment, no nothing. Just a letter, say, Mr. Yudel, you've been following tests we've been doing pretty, not just a hospital test, but other stuff as well. You have to start on the onset of Parkinson's disease.

Please make contact with this in the next six months to book an appointment. In the next six months? Six months, yeah. So I was obviously not very happy. It wasn't even 50. I was 49. It was a month before my 50th birthday. A friend who works in the hospital operating in Bayesstoke said,

you can't wait six or eight months to get your diagnosis. I didn't know what tablets I had to tell you. about to cope with it, what I could do, what I couldn't do. So the gentleman, Steve, saw me through in the next week to 10 days. That was when the confirmation was, as a scene, black and white was the confirmation of what I didn't want to hear, but at least it was a clear path and a route to go forward with what's a horrible disease to have for anybody. But when you're not even 50, it's a bit under, and been active for 25 years that life playing professional sport was, as you can imagine, a bolt from the blue

and in effected not just myself but my family as well I mean to be left with that diagnosis and no obvious support at that stage I mean that must have been

almost as scary as a diagnosis itself because you're sort of I guess you're straight onto the internet and you're googling it and then you see the bad things yeah and this is what you could be

and a close friend of mine's got it and he was involved with my business and he was in a really bad way so you actually think that's the way you're going to be but when how long is that's going to take is it going to be two years

five years And the specialist that I saw So we can't put a time frame on it It could be three years Could be 10 years could be 20 years We don't know until you're going to be But you have to be prepared for the fact that At some stage it will deteriorate

And it's going to be Not it's going to get the better Well it will get the better of you But you've got to try and put up a fight before that happens So in the immediate aftermath I guess you go and seek treatment instantly Yeah And then COVID strikes

So that can't have been helpful No, COVID was, wherever it was shut, I couldn't get treatment for 16 weeks, muscle reactivation treatment, massage treatment, salt water treatment, which is just incredibly doing your exercises in sea salt water. Ported from the Dead Sea, this water is because it's very salt, very boy, and you can do all your message you need to do without any pressure on your muscles. So there's certain things that I put it into place that help, but at the time you don't know what to think, what to do, where to turn, COVID was just, it was awful for everybody, but when you have a problem. problem that you rely on other people to help you with to get you slightly better to not have that was just, I mean, I have it. Take every 10 days of muscle reactivation treatment and deep tissue massage and salt water every week to 10 days. So as you go, 16 weeks without that was hard. Harder than hard, but I can't swear on this station. Yeah, it wasn't easy, but you should

sort of just find a way. But at least I could get out and walk a lot more and keep active, which is another part of Parkinson's that you need to do. How did you cope with the sort of a sense of injustice because you know it's a cricketer's life it's a relatively short professional life by comparison with other people what happens for sports people and you're finishing

in that 20-10 you're still playing for Berkshire but effectively your cricketing career is gone and you're establishing a new career and the sense of injustice must have been quite strong in you how do you sort of psychologically deal with that I'll be honest

then sometimes you don't you still comes back and haunchy or still had bad nights and a bad night last week which is just awful and you do sit there sometimes and think why me which which is natural and you can't help those feelings but you've got as you get it as you've had it for longer you sort of get used to what's happened and therefore your bad days don't feel as quite as bad because you've been through it before when you have your first bad day or bad night you just wake up and you think I just can't get out bed I can't move properly I'm stuck I'm muscles have gone sore and rigid and I can't don't do what I want to do.

I'm going to the loon and I'm falling over if my balance is bad. I can't do my shoelaces out. Can't do my buttons up. Can't put cufflings on. Can't do a tie. Those things are the basic, simple things. But you have to try to

make jokes of it and make a lot of fun of it. It's also not very nice to people that you live with and people that are close to you because they can, if you get frustrations, you take it out the people who are closest to you and that's not fair.

But they've been very understanding and thoughtful. But to go through it all and injustice. of it all was just yeah and at the same time as covid i've lost my mom or lost my father lost great mate shame morn and then their diagnosis all four things came along in a very sort of 16 to 18 months period so you get over one then what's that they go for another it just seems as though the world's against you but you've got to come through the other side

there was some really tough and dark days it's a disease that affects so many people not just in this country but around the world are there support networks out there for people who get diagnosis. I mean, there's very high-profile people with Parkinson's disease. I think you're Paul Sinner, for example, from the Chase. Yeah, Michael J. Fox. Michael J. Fox. And both of them talk about it very candidly.

Is there a support network? There is a support network. I've got a dedicated Parkinson's nurse. I've got a dedicated Parkinson's neurologist specialist that I see privately every now and again, which I saw two weeks ago. So there are things in place. Obviously, when you go to the doctors with a common cold and stuff, or a bit of chesty cough you have to be very careful now how you that gets treated and how you are with that because secondary issues in terms of when the COVID thing was going along I know mine wasn't a respiratory issue but it's still neurological and that has to be taken into consideration if you get a diagnosis of a cold or flu or whatever but it's a question of just making do with what it is accepting as if it difficult as it is what you've got and and trying to make the most of every sort of day that you have a good day

sometimes are bad days, which as I said is really hard to take, but the people around you do suffer as well you've got to have a strong network, as you say, but the the Clarks for all is, is to keep in trying to hear a positive mindset. Treatments, are they improving? I mean, it's quite a high-profile

disease, so I imagine there's quite a lot of charities working in this. There's a lot, I mean, I've done some basic money for Parkinson's UK and sport Parkinson's, which is another one that I'm very closely associated with, which it basically does what it's, says on the tin, it's trying to help pardons people, but we used to play sport

if you're going to do walking football golf days are very still very relevant. Table tennis is good for you because you're going to cross your body to keep everything moving. Tennis is good. Anything that you can do to keep yourself active as you possibly can to stop the muscles from seizing up.

There's the sort of secret to it also. Does you still play golf? I do play golf. I'm playing in, I think my next game is booked in April when this horrid weather stops that we're getting now. I do struggle to play 18 if I have to carry clubs, so I have to have a buggy, a motorised buggy sometimes if I can get it to play golf,

but I still try to do that. And it's not the end. So when I'm fit and able to carry on doing so, I'll continue to do so as much as I can. Pros don't know they're born, do they've got caddy. That's ridiculous. Well, let's move on to happier memories. And let's head straight back to sort of the start of your career,

because we're here in Basingstoke. We're not very far from Camberley, which is the team that you play for. Your team used to play against my team in the Surrey Championship and thrash them. Your dab is a very keen cricketer. Very keen. And you started off,

you were telling me earlier, as a sort of medium pacer and batter, and then you develop off-spin. And off-spin, it strikes me, is one of the bravest things you can do in a cricket field. Because, you know, a fast bowler's got a bouncer. A leggy's got the zooter,

or the invented nonsense. You're an off-feet. I mean, that's tough, isn't it? It is when you're an on turning off spinner. Yeah, it was, I mean, my grandfather actually was a first-astised with Middlesex and Leicestershire for either side of the wars. So there was cricket in the blood, and my great-great-grandfather was accredited with the bringing cricket to Fiji.

And there's a statue of him in the Fiji town square, in the middle of capital of Fiji, a picture of a statue of him as a memento, what he brought to the country. So his cricket is very very. very much de-rooted within the family. That's through your father's side. Yeah, my father's side. My great-grandfather, my grandfather, Jeffrey,

and my father, Robin, was very good and extremely competitive, shall we say. Cricketer and my brother, bless him, was also very good. Captain Camberley for a long time as well. He played first 11 cricket for 25, 30 years. So it was definitely in the blood. And I got picked when I was 11 or 12 for the under district sides. it used to be in the old days. Played for Old Schott and Farmers Schoolboys,

Cove, Secondary School. We were very lucky then. We had a schoolhead master called Charlie Mortimer who looked after the sporting stuff for the kids. We played competitively. And then when I was 15, I was playing in a game against Devon under 15s, down in Devon.

And we needed three wickets to win the game in the last couple of overs. I was buying my innocuous medium-paced stuff, which wasn't doing anything. The master in charge said to me, you're not going to get any wickets behind what you are. I said, thank you. Candid.

He said, why don't you try the spinner? The spinner. And I thought, I don't have a go at that. And I got three weeks in the over. We won the game. And I thought, well, while I'm bothering running in after, for 40 yards the rest of my life, I'll just try in three or four yards and give the ball a spin and see what happens. And that was exactly what happened for those donkeys years ago now.

So it's totally by accident I came across off spin. Didn't know the subtleties of it all. Didn't really know how to hold a ball properly. Didn't know about an arm ball. I just had an off spinner and a quick. a ball, which is a medium pacer was quite quick, and the A.D. Ames are weak at her. She used to call it the exorcet,

which was the nickname for the quicker, faster straight one that was full. And it just sort of developed on from there, really, as the involved with the family was paramount from a very young age. And do you get your first call up in 94, and that's we're talking, so Ray Elling with kind of time?

My address, he was known as Uncle Ray to me, because that was how he always backed me and believed in me in the last year. He used to take with Nicky, so Uncle raised here to watch you again. He was on the BBC commentary team at the time as well. And when he took over in 94, because I'd had two

my introductory years, well obviously the late 80s at Hampshire when I joined in 87, 88, but then I got in the side regularly, end of 1990, 1991 playing one day cricket only because I had her only operation, and I couldn't play three or four day cricket. In 92 was my breakthrough season, I got 111

wickets in the season, and I didn't get picked for an A tour or anything, and I thought that was a bit unjust. So So 1993, I then got another 108 wickets, didn't get pick again, but for nothing, for nothing possibly. And I thought, why was this the case? Who were the spinners going to pick? I had you?

A bit of such came through. I think Graham Gooch was the captain, not saying the Essex link helped. No. Tuffus was still at his prime. Robert Croft was coming through and seemed to be people they like to pick him above myself, which was fair enough. Robert's a good friend, but also a very good bowling and cricket in his time. but the amount of wickets I was taking thought it deserved recognition of some description

and then the West Indies tour of that winter I think wherever the selection team were at the time either gave in or were replaced and Ray Lindberg took over as chairman of selectors one of his opening comments of the 1994 domestic season was I'm going to be picking Dan Goff and Sean Euler as long as they start the season well and obviously the first in the old days was the Texaco trophy series and that first tour first trip It was the first games against New Zealand at Episton and at Lords. And so I got announced a week. I found out I hadn't started the season very well with a ball,

but I got a couple of 80s and a 90-od, I think, and 80-od against Starbyshire. And DeFey's got a hat-trick. And I got picked on the back of, they knew I could bowl. It was the statistics we would back that up, but it was batting as well, which Ray liked his batters to bowlers to bat. And we played New Zealand at Edgbaston, which I got a couple of wickets.

I think it was, Adam Pore. the first wicket and then Ken Rutherford and I was lucky I had Robin Smith in the side who helped me settle into a dressing room fellow Hampshire man and teammate and it was nowhere near what it is now I mean it was a couple of coaches physio and left your own devices really

so it wasn't the on engaging network that it is that it is now well you mentioned there you know you were relieved to see Robin Smith there because you play with him at Hampshire that is part of what's so different about now isn't it I mean I'm thinking about the way show of Bashir Ray and Arme

Tom Hartley just arrive in this side that probably barely set eyes on each other because they're very inexperienced cricketers and somehow this sort of warm, cozy umbrella brings them all together

turns them into a team what we hear about the teams in the 90s is that you guys were sort of turning up and clock yourself down in a corner of the changing room and people were welcoming but not to the extent of knock on your door

and I'll give the comparison my first night in Edgberston in the hotel the night before the game was on my own we had a team meal team meal that happened which was nobody really wanted to be there because it was just the

thing that you did was that used to happen at the eve every time did it? Yeah, even at one day international we were a test match dinner and used to be the selectors that there were a certain age difference

between us talking about their old years and we'd be sat there with the food and then get out there as quickly as you could but then that was it when I made my test match stayed in Pakistan the first night of the tour I had Fred and Steve Alton knock on my door and say you're coming out to dinner with us not

we left your own devices after the dinner and they were fantastic with me so the difference in terms of welcoming atmospheres was vast and certainly the people of the older brigade back in the 90s wouldn't really speak to you very much

they'd say good luck and that but you think well you definitely mean that you've got out your way to just to say good luck because you can say well I wish him good luck but it was different atmosphere and different everything not more backroom staff in 2005 there was to say a physio and there was no

psychoanalyst no dietitians nothing there was a physio and that was about no fitness monitor or anything like that it was just get out completely pretty pretty. So let's go back quickly before coming back to 2005 6 because you're then really sort of you're in the wilderness

in a way but you're a very prominent county player I mean you're always in the conversation but for 11 years it hasn't happened for you again you've not got selected and you know I mean railing was to be an obvious champion of you because there's an off spinner who batted but similar light to you

what was happening in those wilderness years did you just did you give up on England did you not even think it was going to happen again after a while I don't think I ever gave up it was I just knew that certain people were going to get and again Crofty was doing well and then Duncan Fletch got the role and obviously it was a glomorghumit with Crofty and stuff and I think that that goes a long way with with

selection in those days the captain would have a massive say and he would pick the people that he knew and that he trusted so with the coach and that's that's fine I can live with that but I think I was consistently taking wickets. Mark Nixon was a great captain for me when I first joined he just basically put me on one end and leave me and as the years go by the Robert Smith was a good captain and then obviously the one of the major differences that happened was the arrival of Shane Warner Hampshire he taught me how to think better about being a bowler and that might sound dark but he would

and also the way he captained he would do little things like he put me on before him and I go hey you're the best that's ever been and he said no but you're going to get him out I said yeah but he said no no you're going to get him out and over too later he'd say just change the field and he'd come up and he'd say it's half the time he'd just say to me we're going to move the field but we're going to

we're not going to. I'm just trying to get into the batsman's head to make him think that we're doing something but we're not and he'd be talking and be pointing his hands and going like this and I'd be thinking what's going on here? And he said, now you're going to get him caught slip and it would happen. And I'd be thinking how does that happen? So it's almost like sort of sourced.

Kidology, yeah, just getting into the batsman's mind. You see the batsman getting annoyed and he starts thinking what's he doing? Looking around the field and trying to see where the field has just been moved and stuff and half the time we want to go to you're right, mate, now go back a bit yeah, that's fine. This is the position he was in the first place but because the batsman has to change and think where's he gone doubt would get him out of his bubble and there was there's lots of little things that warn he used to do and say to make us make me

feel as I was but I mean being put on before he was he came on to bowl was just a massive pick me up and I felt 10 foot tall how important do you think that captaincy of spinners is because I ask this question because traditionally England captains haven't really captains spin awfully well not used to it but they're yeah they're not not used to it. Whereas, you know, when you describe someone like Shane Warren, greatest, possibly greatest bowler of all type, he's going to be, he's going to understand what you need, isn't it? And also, I think the thing with it with shame was that he would always ask you for your opinion. Some times ignore it. Most of the time to ignore it. Most

he would do his own thing, but he would be able to command the respect of the team that he was playing with and also the players he was playing against. And his philosophy was I mean, it used to say to me, one of the first thing you said to me, let's just spin it when you come on, Sean. What are you looking to do? What's your first job? And I'd say, get a wiki, you say, no.

You stay on. You stay on. You try your best to stay on. Because you can't, the old traditional, how often do we see in candy cricket? The spinner gets one over before lunch. The last over before lunch, see if it spins. Well, it's minus six in April.

Your fingers are cold. You can't get a grip on the ball. How are you expected to do a job for your side? If you get one over for lunch, then you might get three hours before lunch, or tea, then the ball goes soft and old, so it gives the spinner for six overs, and you bowl ten overs in a day,

in three spells, and you can't get into the game. You've got to assess the state of the pitch, the batsmen where they're strong on the leg side, strong on the off side, the line you've got to bowl for areas in March, in April and May that it does in August, but he said to be the first thing you'll do stay on. If you don't stay on, you can't get a grip of what's going on

around you. So that was again another thing that I'd never thought of. So how would that affect would you bowl something more defensively in the first couple of overs, would you? Just a question of of trying two or three different, the height of your arm, for example, it could be up touching your rear, then there could be a wider one, you could get a slide again, and you could get some quarter slip, you could be bowling slower because it's a slow wicker,

you might be getting more bounce, but you can't weather that in one over before lunch. You've got to stay on to get to learn to the right paces and the right lines and stuff to bowl in certain situations. But without him, and again, I automatically relaxed, so I came on to bowl, I thought I had to get wicked to stay on. But because he understood bowling, he would say, no, you're on for four or five overs.

If you get whacked, we'll worry about it. If you get it if it happens, if not, we'll leave you on. You just figure things out. But it's kind of cricket that doesn't know. It was refreshing to see Ben Stokes, especially with Top Hartley in our first innings. Everyone's going, well, he's gone for 115 or 20. Why is you bowling him? But there was a plan because he knew that it was his first bowl for three or four months.

He's nervous and certainly test match cricket. He's being whacked. But during this series in Indian spinners pitches, we're going to need him to bowl sides out. So give him the confidence to bowl. And without that, I'm convinced you we've never got seven. for in the second inn is that do you think a rarity especially for you know a fast bowling all-rounder yeah truly to understand the needs of a spinner in that

definitely and again that's where ben has been and bender mccullough have been brilliant i think for english cricket and the way they've treated the guys that have the youngsters to come in like shah bashir and uh rahan armid they must be in heaven because they know they're not going to be judged on one or two games they've got the whole tour and they've got the future ahead of them A lot of people took offence

the fact that Liam Dawson didn't get picked And I was a big Liam Dawson, Africa The seasons he's had, and obviously he's a hamishy boy And the seasons that he's had been brilliant And I thought with the Jack Leach situation now That was the one thing that I worried about

Was that if he went, we got three youngsters with three or four test messages between them Providing our spin options Whereas Liam, he's been with an experienced man But then If you don't pick spinners, young spinners for in India You can't really take him to South Africa or to any places like that because they seem a friendly wickets

to let them learn on bowling in situations like they're bowling in but for Ben to back them the way they have and Brendan McCollum as I say I think he's been breath of fresh air hi my name's Eddie Hearn and this is no passion no point I'm excited to be back with this new series as always I'll be talking to top performers about what drives them how they gain an edge over competitors and whether their dedication to constant improvement comes at a cost

I love golf, I play it until my hands be. I just enjoy going out there, playing with no fear. What makes them feel fulfilled? It's not the money, it's not the trophies, it's the friendships and the memories I've got. And does that change as their career progresses? It's just a girl who grew up playing football, and now I'm getting papsed, like, without even seeing the camera, like, it's crazy.

From BBC Radio 5 Live. No passion, no point. Listen, whenever you like on BBC Sounds. Let's go back to you, because, because you then get recalled and you're sent with the England team the first tour after the 2005 ashes English cricket's on this massive high

but there have been a few changes Michael Vaughn's stricken with an injury Ashley Giles is not going to make it through the whole tours of Pakistan and then subsequently India and you're back in the fold after 11 years and it's one of the toughest of tours

isn't it Pakistan those are the flattest of decks which are not really spin friendly. No. Tell us what it felt like. First, to get selected. Yeah. And then to put that, you know, put that jersey on again and come into a totally different setup. So if you can contrast the two setups. Yeah. As I say, the 90 Fos series was, no, 495, 96 when I played the One Day

International was just a different feel. You didn't feel part of, I mean, I was lucky with Robin being there and other people that I knew from County Cricket Days, but it wasn't like I had a grounding with those guys in terms of knowing them very well, 94, no, 5, but in 2005, 6 when I got recalled, I think because I was 35 at the time as well, I wasn't overly looking to make friends that I'd go out my way and do stuff. I was just happy to accept the fat. I've been given a last chance. I knew what I was there for, probably for one winter to do a job, and my expectations weren't

that high, so we worry about it too much. but to go back into that dressing room in 2005 was amazing because I say three weeks before they won the ashes and all the ticket tape rate and a double deck of bus and everything else that went on and all of a sudden I was part of that that group of people that had done that and to be made as welcome as I was

within that dressing room and three or four guys as I've mentioned were fantastically helpful in that front was brilliant and they treated me very well treat me like I was the old sod in the team but that was fair enough I accept did that and I wasn't expected to do miracles but I wasn't expected to play in all three

games but I think Ashley got injured in one or two of them and all of a sudden I was the solitary spinner but the pitches were like this like this table just no spin no not much bounce and as I say in the three test matches I think I took four wickets so an average in 92 which I thought was not going to keep me on the tour I think I actually got kept on for the one day series there's a five one day some barfatch one day series in Pakistan after the test matches and I got kept on for that which I thought was a bit of a confidence boost. I only played in one or two of them.

So then the winter tour came around. The selection was for India about, I think it was mid-February until the end of March. And Pakistan, India toured Pakistan, there's four weeks before, and in January, I think it was. And Harbourjan had played in the same wickets

that we played on the same ground, same venues. And Harbajan, in three testimonies, didn't get a single wicket. So I thought, well, I'm done not considerably better than him. He's averaging infinity. Yeah, exactly. And I'm averaging 90.

So I was sort of thinking If they look at that From consistency, they better give me a chance In India that's going to Where it's generally going to turn and get some bounce And fair enough to the day of gradient selectors they did I got the call say you're on the tour On the trip

And then when it got ill As happens in India It was out of the But didn't get picked for the first test match on I think we only played one spinner I think The second test match I was out of Out of action with a sickness bug

And then the third test match Got the Nod a couple of days before the game and had to manage to do something half decent. Well, let's talk about that because to the last test? Yeah, but also would you say your greatest moment on a cricket field? Very close, very, the fourth on the last day, I think would take some beating, but also being the first ever born and bred Hampshire captain to lift a trophy for the club was right up there as well, I've been there 20 or years.

But in terms of profile, and what it meant to first test match winning in India for 21 years, that's a lot. I mean, it wasn't, obviously, I didn't do everything, but it's got four or five weeks in the match. But it was an enjoyable experience. Well, let's set it up because it's at the Wankady Stadium, which is a magnificent place to be playing cricket. Yeah, very much so. In Mumbai. England, a 1-0-down, hard-fought series.

It was. Going toe-to-to-to, Jimmy Anderson's brought back in. I mean, it's incredible to think. Jimmy Honey. Still playing now. Still playing now. Unbelievable, really. We're talking about this year or last test match. 17 years ago. Jimmy takes 4 for 40. But

with England 1-0 down desperately want to save the game. And really, you kind of on top through a lot of the game, but there's some interesting things here because there's some players who are injured by this stage. England have lost Marcus

Drescott. They've lost Michael Vaughn. They've lost Michael Vaugh. lost Ashley Giles. Yeah. Simon Jones got injured as well. Simon Jones. Jimmy Anderson's playing and he wasn't a regular at all at that stage. And away his Shah comes in for his debut. And I'm conscious that this is the debut season for Alastair Cook as well.

He debuted in Nagpur in the draw in Nagpur two tests before. So away his Shah's come in. And I remember him getting cramped because he used to grip the backs are hard. Very hard, yeah, very hard. it's already a board in 88 England gets 400 cut a

long story short they're set 318 or to win and this is about as far removed from bass ball as we can get because under the

captaincy of Andrew Flintoff England score 190 odd 191 and 92.4 overs to set up that victory target

so it was tough for traditional cricket wasn't it it was good old-fashioned cricket and

I mean just as a by story of that test match Alster Cook was got playing in that test match until the morning of the game when he got ill and I wish I came in and

so he got eight years and that was the rest of his history but the whole test match was heaven flowed we lost the toss and got inserted. Very rare in India. The toss to coming up and you know I'm on the edge of the outfield thinking please please please back come on Fred just call correct so it kind goes up

and Freddie calls incorrectly and I just seen go and I think it was Dean Jones went to driveway first and I thought oh that's it we're in the field said we'll field first and I don't I would talk and thought, did he just say field? And I thought, and Preddie's like, just see his face light up thinking, what, do you say field?

And I thought, yeah, so we're batting. Which is amazing to win a tossing. On a brown deck with two spinners in both sides and in Mumbai, 40 degree heat and win a toss and bowl, but he did, thankfully. Strauss played a fantastic inning, he's got 100 in the first innings. O'Ishar, got 80, odd. I think Freddie got 50.

He got 50s in both innings. We batted with 400 on the board. Was brilliant. a day and a bit into the game I think it was and then the second innings

the India first innings I think Jimmy bowed brilliantly Freddy got some wickets and Matthew Holgaard I think Monty might got one I got one

and Monty I was putting in this game and there's a very famous incident involving Monty isn't there

certainly is off the batter of MS Stoney do you know there certainly is but I mean on night three just a little

preload into night three I was Knight Watchman and I've been dropped twice by Bastard Watchman

Duncan Fletcher, can you see? Look at me, you went shaggy, you're never doing that job ever again. I said, I know, because it's my last test match, so I'm not really worried. But I got 16 or 8. I batted for about an hour.

The pre-dogs of that story, the night before, I was very down. I hadn't bowed, particularly when in the first innings, I'd gone for four and a half and over, which was not, which was just, I was bowling,

bawly, I was sweating, I'd shake, it was just horrible, and I didn't feel very good. And I batted, and I started about okay, and I got a phone call in my room

that night. And it was a great shame warm, bringing me up and saying, mate, I hear you struggling. Robin Smith had been in touch with Warnie and said, I think Shagher needs a bit of a lift. Are you in a position to give him a call? So I was in my hotel around about 9 o'clock at night. And I think he was in Cape Town or somewhere.

I can't remember where Warnie was now. But the phone call just lifted me like you can't believe. And he said, this is your last test match. You do want to go out by giving it anything less than what you've got. you're there on merit your England's best off spinner you win this test match for your country you'll never feel a feeling like this ever again in your life so don't regret anything so just go and do what you can do you're the best go and do it and it's too difficult to put into words what that meant and what it did for me because he went out of his way the greatest in my opinion

certainly spinner that's ever lived to take the time and the efforts had someone who was struggling a bit was phenomenal and um I went out and back to the next morning got eight to a 18, I think, in about an hour and a half, but that gave me some confidence. And then, obviously, the last day was, what's written in stone now and was phenomenal in terms of what happened, but to get

forward, he's including Satin and Doni was pretty special, as you say, Monty made a bit of a pig's ear with a chance off, Tony, two balls before. My recollection is it went, right? Yeah, he's at the air, he's at mid-off, but he's suddenly nowhere near the ball. No. The ball's up there for quite a while.

The Mottis has not gone near it. Moodle comes in and Bills to Doni, who hits it high in the air, to Skaya, there are two fielders underneath it. Panasar is there. They had time to debate who it was going to be. It was swirling, and I'm afraid, Monti Panasar. How old? Yeah, he didn't even get his hands to it.

It was in the middle of Jimmy Anderson, Monty, but a lot further closer to Monty's side of the thing of the pitch. And when he just stood there like that and put his hands back, and missed it, I thought, what's he done? Because he got Satya and I'll call short leg the book, it was a couple of those before, which was in heaven about, and I thought this is going to be two, and what's Monty done? He's got nothing

and he blamed his son. I said, the sun's over the other side of the ground Monty, you can't blame the sun, you just made it a humongous error. Anyway, two balls later, Donie came down the wicket again and I did actually see him coming a bit, so he chucked it a bit wider. Thankfully, he did the same thing again, and Monty didn't have to move. He couldn't blame Jimmy, he couldn't blame the son, which he did the same chance two balls before he blamed the sun,

but the next time he caught it so obviously the sun wasn't too bad Udil goes now to Donio who goes out another big swing Peresar's got another chance it's high he's caught it he's caught it long off I wasn't so costly after all

he caught it given the second chance so a triumph for Udall he's enveloped by delighted teammates it's his debut as well was it Monti's debut tour I think Monty played in the first couple of test matches that was his third test

but again very young and to win to play that major part that especially the satchin wiki caught short leg I've won that spun and donie and then the two talentenders

is that your biggest wicket do you think in that moment last day and getting him out how I planned in my head to get him out set him up a bit wide

a bit wider and then a bit quicker and it spun and then off his pad and Ian Bell took a very good catch that's turned away on the on side it's caught

at short leg Yudel has made the break Through the big one, Tendulka's gone. He rushes off towards square leg and he's mobbed by every single England fielder. Well, what a wicket for Yudel. Tendulka pushed forward. He was taken by Bell at short leg

and it's 76 for five. Well, let me tell you, that's the biggest wicket in Sean Yudel's life. It really is. He gets Tendulka out. Flintos got driving out. And well done the captain. all I'm saying about putting the seamer on

the captain's had faith in the spinner and the spinner's done the job for him in England. Wow, 76 for five and the two biggest names out. You got your first England cap in 94 but it's your first test cap that all turned up not long before this match we're talking about.

How much more important is that test cap to you and to cricketers generally? The word test match says everything because it's the biggest test. of your ability over four or five days that you can you can go through. A 2020 game again can be one or lost in an over or two some balls a magical over and it brings you back into the game and or a magical spell in a 50 over game but for me the test match cricket is your biggest of

your ability and what you've got inside your head inside your mind inside your heart what it really means to you and the toughest situations bring out the best in people sometimes and that's how you can judge the best cricketers but to me test match cricket will always be the pinnacle and um to be able to played a part was fantastic. There's a long on in, a long off, deep forward square leg on the boundary, deep backward square leg. Yudel at 100 for nine, goes into Bolton.

Munafo is a huge swing away on the, on side. Hogarths underneath it, he's going to catch it. He does catch it. England has run. It's a fourth wicket for Sean Yudel. He runs out towards ExtraCoa. There's no one there, so he has to run back in towards the pitch. Some colleagues are there.

They split off. Some are congratulating Udle Some are congratulating Flintoff and Hogard England have won by Two hundred and twelve runs India a hundred all out It's England's first test victory in India For more than 20 years

And they've levelled the series We've discussed a little bit about Ben Stokes and you've talked about the inspiration inspirational captaincy of Shane Warren There's an awful lot of debate About the way England go about their cricket What's your take? on it watching from a distance?

I think it's been amazing, it's been brilliant. There are times when I sit there and I think just raining in a little bit but that whole overall outcome and feel about what's happened the excitement is brought to the game itself, the Simon is brought

to the England supporters there's going to be times when it doesn't go quite well but as an overall package would we rather be where we are now or where we were two years ago and there's undoubtedly the place to be where we are now

The biggest test is going to be over the next year and how the press and also how the supporters either respect what they're doing still. If they continue down this route, it would be an ultra-positive, which I think is the right way to go with the side that they've got. But as an overall package, I'm very much in favour of it. I think it's brought entertainment back into the game, but bums on seats, the people are watching it and listening to it. And we're talking about it in a positive way. I think they're going to be good for the game. Would you like to have played under Basble? Wonderful.

I mean, I was a bit of a number eight slogger, so to suit me perfectly. But bottom hand over to the leg side, but I think you'd be given a lot of freedom to do to play the game, how you wanted to play. Play a game with no regrets, with no... No, comments behind your back,

if you got out playing a silly shot, as long as you're in the right reasons and you could see what you were trying to do as trying to push the game on and play positively. But yeah, I'd have loved it. Sean, thank you so much, being so candid about Parkinson's

for telling us so many stories about your own career. It's been great having you on the TMS podcast. It's been nice morning. Thank you very much. Thank you. And thank you for listening back home. You can catch all of our podcasts on BBC Sounds app

where you can also get the Nobles podcast and the Tail Enders podcast, among many other things. From Daniel Norcross for now and from Sean Udall. Goodbye. Behind the scenes with two of the sports biggest names, Mercedes and Williams. This is not coal mining, this is Formula One Motor Racing. As they build their new cars, we want to be so much further ahead. And face shocking headlines. Here's Lewis Hamilton moving away from Mercedes.

I'm Joseph Fines, and from BBC Radio 5 Live, this is F1, back at base. Listen on BBC's fans.