Test Match Special - Simon Hughes talks to James Anderson

Episode Date: August 20, 2018

Test Match Special brings you an in-depth interview with England's leading Test wicket-taker James Anderson, as he opens up to Simon Hughes about his career.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. To embrace the impossible requires a vehicle that pushes what's possible. Defender 110 boasts a towing capacity of 3,500 kilograms, a weighting depth of 900 millimeters, and a roof load up to 300 kilograms. Learn more at landrover.ca. Thanks for taking the time to download this BBC Radio 5 Live podcast. To search for other podcasts you might like, click BBC.co.com.uk slash five live, where you'll also find our terms of use. Simon Hughes is here, talking to James Anderson this week.

He's an extraordinary performer, isn't he, Simon? You also had fun talking to him, actually. Well, it's just been a fascinating road that he's trodden or travelled over the last 16 years. I remember watching that first match that he really came to prominence in. in Cape Town when he bowled out Pakistan with those four wickets and I just thought that's the kind of bowler I wanted to be and I never was anywhere near that good but that's what I wanted to bowl. I wanted to bowl that late swing and I really wanted to know how he'd done it, where he'd come from

because he came pretty much from nowhere. He hardly played any county cricket before he played for England and it's just been fascinating watching his evolution over time so I sat down with him on Friday and I've sort of divided his career down into sort of four-fellate phases, I suppose, a bit like a mountaineer. It's a hard job, isn't it? Being a fast bowler.

So the first phase of sort of two or three years during which he took that four for 29, which was a bit like being at base camp. And then he had a bit of a period where they were mucking around with his run-up and his action and so on. And he had a few difficult years. And I sort of called that a slippery slope

because he was listening probably to too many coaches and going backwards at times. Then he really scaled the peak in around about 2000. 2011 when England won the ashes of course in Australia and during that period he was a phenomenal performer and he's remained at the peak really over the last two or three years at times just below the summit if you like but able to climb it and scale it every so often when England really need it but the interesting thing he says is that throughout all that period it's been a systematic acquisition of vital skills my whole career I've just tried to learn and um you know I found the first say five years pretty tough when you want to be learning the art of bowling but at the same time I had action problems I was working on it had injury problems so that sort of takes away your focus from the skills that you want to learn which I found pretty difficult but then once I got over

that then you know I've been able to just give my full attention to the to the skills that I want to use and then I've just learned also the sort of game management of when to use those sort of deliveries and on different sorts of surfaces as well which has really helped and you know if you look back on some you get those replays sometimes of that World Cup performance in 2003 which where you sort of really came to everyone's notice do you look back on that as almost a different bowler or can you see yourself in there still well I actually saw that game not long ago on replayed on the TV and I do look I look back and think I'm a different bowler yeah different action different sort of load up um quicker run up probably probably slightly quicker

run up um but the scene position is pretty much the same and that's something that i've been fortunate with ever since i learned how to swing the ball is i've always kept that seam position and um i think that stood me in good stead over the years even through the difficult times with my action and things like that still managed to maintain that scene position and where did that come from that scene position. Was that something that you just had naturally or did you copy somebody else? No, well I, when I grew up

playing for Burnley I was, I just ran in with a, trying to hold it straight as straight as I possibly could and then it wasn't until Mike Watkinson at Lancashire sort of, he was second team coach and he taught me how to swing the ball and then, you know, since then it, I won't see it came naturally but it didn't take me

too long to get used to that and figure it out. So yeah, it's something that I'm constantly working on it as well. Still now. Even in practice, just seeing if there's things I can do, whether you know, just tilting it slightly one way or the other will make it swing more or less. And, you know, in conditions where it's hooping around corners,

you might want one to still look like an out-swinger but doesn't do as much, and they're the sorts of balls that you get the edge with. So just trying to tinker around with things like that. And the late swing that you had certainly early in your career and you still have now, have you identified where that comes from? I mean, I'm guessing, you know, sort of educated guessing, that it's that coil that you have, the wind-up,

that seems to add that natural talk to the ball. I mean, have you ever kind of looked at that in a scientific way? Not really. I think the conditions aren't always susceptible to that late swing. But when it does swing late, there are things that I do to try and make it sort of go even later and you know I'll almost try and fall away a little bit with my front side and my head

so I'm almost pushing the ball in towards the right end of the batsman and then that sort of makes it go even later but as I said it's not always it doesn't always hoop like that so again there are things that I tinker with just to you know sometimes it feels like it's swinging more from the hand which is easy to pick for the batsman yeah and finally if I used to find going wider of the crease sometimes it swung more I'd never

never worked out why. Yeah, and that's something else that I try and use and play around with. And also, saying that, something that a lot of people don't use is actually coming tight to the stumps. You know, you talk to boulders about using the crease. They go sort of mid-crease for the normal delivery and then use wider the creases their variation. But, you know, you watch someone like Dale Stain who comes in really tight,

and that's something else I've tried to develop is, you know, getting real tight to the stumps and just changing the angle again for the batter. Actually, Terry Alderman was a great one for that. You asked Graham Gooch. Just going back, so you talked about the first part of your career when you were very young and just sort of learning the game, then that period where people tried to change your run-up and action, I suppose, do you look back on that as the sort of darkest period, really?

Well, I guess so from a cricket point of view. I just wasn't in a great place sort of mentally going into games. I was in and out of the team. And when I did get an opportunity, I was thinking too much about my action rather than actually get into a contest with the batsman. But at the same time, I kind of look at it as something I probably needed to go through. It just confirmed to me that what I was doing before was good and worked for me. I think around that period it was when people were obsessed with speed

and trying to get an extra two or three miles an hour out of me, and that's why I length of my run up, my load was slightly different, and that kind of just sent my rhythm off completely. I remember seeing you running down with cones down the run-up, trying to get you straight and actually now your run-up is probably shorter than it's ever been and it's shortish anyway and it's at a slight angle.

Yeah, well mine now is just it's something that feels good for me I'm not saying this is how people should run in this is what works for me it's the same length run-up I've had since I was 15 so it's not something that I've ever tinkered with other than trying to lengthen it to get more speed I lengthened it by about five paces

in sort of 2003-4 but since then yeah I've tried and sort of for me the run-up is all about the last sort of six sort of paces six steps so leading up to that it's just about finding some rhythm and then you build up pace at the end and then that's where you get your direction

at the bat's And actually, I think run-up controls as much as anything the length. If you hit the crease at the right spot with the right sort of momentum then you can pretty much bowl almost any length you want.

So I just found that I know balled actually when I was a kid and so, you know, my run-up was really badly marked but eventually I got a run-up really grooved and I couldn't bowl a bad ball because it just felt natural and it doesn't look like you can bowl a bad ball

unless you actually want to bowl a half folly it looks like you're just naturally going to bowl a length ball every time and it probably feels like that does it? Well yeah, exactly what you say I think if you've got the control when you hit the crease then yeah the ball should go where you want it to and I think that's what it is when people are out of rhythm you're not you're hitting your back foot might be hitting the ground too early

or your front foot's not landing in the right spot and that's where people kind of lose their line and lose their length but when you've got that rhythm and you're hitting the crease the same spot with the same force each time you just get into such a rhythm that you feel like you can't bowl by ball by ball and are you affected by foot holds or anything because it's a very uneven ground you can end up landing on there are you ever affected by that it doesn't look like it but maybe you just take it in stride

I think all bowlers are it's something that affects everyone For me, I need my front foot to get good amounts of grip because that's where I get my power from is bracing my front leg and then going over the top of it. So when the dust, you know, footholds can get dusty and then you don't have as much grip and I feel like I don't have as much force and as much power. So then again, it's sort of using your head.

You can come back a little bit on the crease line to get out of it, go wider the crease or inside it, and just try and avoid it a bit. So when did the penny drop as far as, say your run-up goes because you know you started as this sort of explosive bowler mainly bowling quite full big swingers then you went through a period of trying to find your right action and your right run-up and all that when do you think you really clicked i'm not sure really i think it's certainly in the last five or six years i've so i always thought you know the the mental

side of the game has been a big thing for me and getting my head right before each game because i always thought you know whether it was a lack of confidence or lack of self-belief i thought if i had a good game, one game, or if I had two good games in a row, then I'm due to have a bad game. And it's taken me a while to figure out that actually I don't have, you know, you can have a good game every time you go out there and bowl. So having that sort of switching mentality has helped me and that's come in the last sort of five or six years where I think everything's just falling into place. Like you say, just something's just, everything's just clicked together at the same time. My head's in a good spot. My action is as good as it ever

has been. And my skills are as good as they have been. I feel confident bowling in all conditions. I always felt when you were sort of, you know, in your mid-20s and late-20s, you may be worried about whether the ball would swing on a daily basis. And on certain days when, for some strange reason, it doesn't swing, you know, you're still trying to bowl the same ball and it's not as effective. And therefore, you have that sort of anxiety that, oh, it's not swinging today, it must be something wrong with my action.

Therefore, I need to be doing something different. And that just messes you up completely. yeah but and then again it took me a while to figure out that some days it just doesn't swing at all or as much as you'd want it to and I think what the anxiety I used to get was that I didn't have anything to fall back on once the ball wasn't swinging I wasn't great at holding length but since you know just again it's with work and practice and just the repetition of bowling I think that's really helped me

you know now I go into game confident that if it's the flattest pitch in the world I know I can go up one and over if I have to set in the right field and bowling the right lengths and stuff like that so I feel like I can compete in all conditions. Interestingly, I looked up your economy rate the other day and in your first 20 odd tests it was nearly

four and over, 3.8 or something. Now in the last three years it's 2.3 so there's a real stark difference and is that is that a mental thing that you're more accurate or do you think it's a skills thing? A bit of both of things.

both. You know, it's a mental thing because you've got to concentrate for a long period of time to keep hitting the same length, bowing the same ball, not getting bored, not getting in patience. And you don't get bored? No. And it's something that me and Stuart work quite a lot on together is there's always a danger. If you get to the end of a spell, you know it's your last over, and you go and search for, you know,

a wicket or two in your last over and go for eight and you just sort of ruin the pressure that you've built up over that five or six overs, whatever the spell is. And that's something that we really try and focus on is just get out his spell, you know, it might not happen this spell. If you've bowed a spell six overs for ten or twelve, the guy coming on after us, then his chance to get in a wicket of increased, so you're doing a really good job for the team.

I thought, in a way, when you're saying about not worrying so much about whether the ball's moving or not and learning your game, and knowing that you had something to fall back on other than swing, was beautifully summed up in that last test because in the first innings, it swung, you bowled out Murley Vijay with an absolute peach and you were obviously looking to mainly swing it away and bowl quite full

and then suddenly in the second innings it was all different wasn't it? Yeah well I mean we got fortunate because the conditions were ideal both times we bowed the first innings it did swing a lot so we made best use of that and then second innings I think it's quite drizzly when we're out there

and the ball just seemed to kiss off the pitch nicely and seemed around a little bit so that's when we made a conscious effort of really trying to bowl good balls try and challenge their forward defence as much as we could and we knew with the slope and with the pitch doing as much as it did that we'd challenge the outside or inside edge

if we bowed enough good balls. On a daily basis when you run up to bowl your first over are you generally, if it's a new ball, looking to try and swing it first and see what there is and if not revert to other practices? Yeah, definitely. I think you get a field in the more

warming up whether it's going to swing or not and I'll generally look to try and swing the ball the new ball when I start bowling and then yeah it's just kind of tinkering with it from there if you think the pitch is actually you know you rely on your slips and your captain and your wicket-keeper to give you feed information back and say we think it's going to see more than swing so maybe try that a little bit more

but also it's I mean when it was hooping round at lords in the first innings I remember bowling at Coley and I bowled three sort of wobble scene balls that went straight and it was as if he thought it stopped swinging and then I bowed two swingers after and he played a missed at both of them so there's ways of using it as well even in swinging conditions I don't know if you know but you've now taken in the this decade 2010 to 18 you've taken

four hundred and five wickets four hundred and five test wickets in eight years I mean I think that is quite incredible don't you 405 test tickets it just makes me think

what I was doing for the first seven well you took 150 in the first seven yeah I mean I've really enjoyed the last sort of eight years I feel like I'm really in control every time I'm bowling

it makes it a lot of fun when I go out there and instead of being scared and worried about the challenges of playing overseas as well I'm actually looking forward to it I look forward to going to Sri Lanka or the West Indies knowing that there might not be much help for the scene bowlers

but it's a challenge and I want to show people that I've got skills that can work in those conditions so yeah I mean it is I'm sure when I sit down at the end of my career and look back and think about what I've achieved it would be great but at the minute I'm just trying to focus on you know what the challenges we've got ahead

I mean 405 test wickets is the sum total of people like Ambrose, Richard Hadley. I mean, I'm sorry, I'm going to embarrass you here, but my three names that I think are the most skillful fast bowlers I've ever seen, Dennis Lilly, Malcolm Marshall, Richard Hadley. They're the most skillful. I mean, there are others that are, you know, dynamic and all that, but those are the most skillful.

And you are in that bracket, but actually you're more accurate than Marshall and Lily, and you've got more versatility than Hadley. So, you know, you are. incredible bowler, actually. Do you still really enjoy it? You sound as if you do, actually. Do you actually look forward?

Because bowling is incredibly hard on the body, and you make light of that. And you know, you can wake up and feel awful, can't you? But do you actually really look forward to bowling still? Yeah, I do most days, yeah. There are times where, you know, the opposition of 400 for one at the end, you know, going into a day's play

and you're thinking it's a long day ahead. But generally, I enjoy the challenge. And I think as soon as I stop enjoying that and stop enjoying the work that I do in practice and working on the skills, the minute I stop enjoying that, I think that's the time to hang my boots up. But at the minute, I'm loving playing.

I'm loving playing with this group of lads. I think me now focusing on test cricket and red ball cricket has given me a bit of extra time off to be able to keep my body in good shape. I've not got the worry of long white ball tours or series in the middle of, test series. Or having to bowl wide yorkers or something.

Exactly, yeah. So I think that's really helped me hold me home my Red Bull skills, particularly the last couple of years. So, yeah, I think, as I said, I'm really enjoying it and hopefully that will continue for a few more years. And you do see it as potentially a few more years. I know it's an obvious question, but you do see yourself, I mean, Trevor Bailey said the other day you can play till he was 40.

I agree. Who knows? I don't want to put a number on it or say I'm going to, this is how long I'm going to play for. The minute, the way I feel, I feel as good now as I did when I was 28, 27, 28. Sort of, you know, the way my body is and the way I cope with the stresses of bowling. But who knows, you know, there could be an injury around the corner. You know, one series, you bowl 60 overs, 70 overs, in two or three test matches

and you're cooked and I might think about it differently. But at the moment, the way my body is, the way I'm enjoying myself, you know, hopefully can carry on for a couple more. Well, I hope you do, actually, because for somebody like me, me, you know, it's just fascinating watching how you manipulate batsmen around the crease and I can sort of, I'm trying to read your mind all the time

and it gives us lots to write and talk about. So thank you. Thank you. That's a lovely chat, isn't it? Simon, it really was. A quick score check. India lead by 362 runs here. They're 194 for two. England haven't taken no wicket this morning and they'll be out again

in about 10 minutes led by Jimmy Aniston but that's a really interesting chat, isn't it? And it's you and I bound to find it interesting because as we both would happily admit we'd both wish we'd bold like James Anderson, we tried and you know on some days we did okay but

this man for us is someone that we just watch and marvel at and just wish we could have bold like him and it's what it's the range of skills he always had as we heard with that first World Cup performance when he took the four wickets against Pakistan he always had that natural swing which was just something he was born with I think

that fluidity of his action but he's learnt these other skills and when I said that I thought he was more skillful than somebody like Richard Hadley who of course played here at Trenbridge for many years I really mean it I think he's got more versatility than someone as great as as Richard Hadley was because he's learned those other ways of being effective he swingsable both ways we haven't seen many of the inswingers in this test match or in fact even in this series really but we've seen a lot of the out swingers and I thought today was a great example of how he can adapt to the conditions because what the ball was about, I don't know, about 35 overs old, so it wasn't swinging, but he just

used the, what we call now, the wobble scene, spreading his fingers on the seam a little bit more to try and make the ball nip off the pitch, gave the batsman absolutely nothing. He bowled seven overs this morning. There was one attempt to try and get Coley LBW, which finished up as a half-holly, which was hit for four, but apart from that, he conceded three singles in seven overs. He had the catch dropped, of course, by Butler. And it must be so frustrating when you work a batsman round the crease as he was, and then you get that ball, which just leaves the batsman enough to get the edge and the edge goes down.

Andrew did a little calculation earlier and he's figured out that of Anderson's 556 test wickets, 272 caught either slip or wicket-keeper. So almost half his wickets are caught behind. Yeah, I mean second slip I think would feature highly there as well even down to that sort of accuracy with the way that he bowled, wouldn't you agree? I know I've forgot most of my slip catches were second slip. Key position and they keep shelling them.

It must be devastating. He must be absolutely. I mean, it just wants you want to get into a hole and go away. But to his great credit, he keeps going, doesn't he? And I think what it is interesting for him is that, you know, so often, and I don't know if you would agree with this, but when I was 28, 29, I started to get what bowling was about. It took me 7, 8 years to understand the action and the run-up

and what worked best. By which time, 28, 29, 30, your body isn't as elastic and dynamic as it was when you're in your early 20. is, so you're not bowling with quite that same sort of vim and zip. But in his case, he's learned all these skills and the importance of run up and the consistency of his

action and the smartness of being able to bowl in different conditions, but his body is still like a 25 year old because A, he's a natural athlete, and B, he hasn't had to play one day cricket so much for the last three, four years, and so that's prolonged his

life at the top, if you like. Yes. It's interesting too on I thought that bit we were talking about to him about when he said he sort of relaxed and didn't worry about having a bad game actually why should you have a bad game and I think we all get to that stage if you're a professional cricketer

and you're playing regularly for your county actually you do get to that stage don't you where you just actually you run out you've got the ball in your hand and you mark out you run and off you go and actually you're not thinking negative things you might be worried if you're bowling at Gordon Greenwich or something

but you just you do get to a stage in your career where that goes and I thought it was really interesting on that. A sort of contentment almost in a way rather than striving for the brilliant delivery every ball and the dynamic spell. I think one thing I've always sort of identified with him is that I tried to be a swing bowler

and occasionally it worked. But it's always a little bit more nervy being a swing bowler because you don't know on a daily basis whether the ball is going to swing. And so you start out trying to bowl, I don't know, middle and leg stump and hoping it's hooping away and it doesn't work. so you get clipped off the pads for four through the leg's side.

And that inevitably makes you anxious. And then when you're anxious, you don't bowl as well, the ball sort of sticks in your hands and all that. I think it's much easier being a type of, say, Angus Fraser or Glenn McGraw bowler because they're not relying on swing. They're just relying on line and length. And they just keep hitting the pitch the same line. They don't vary that at all.

They're almost like a machine. Whereas Anderson is an artist. And on a daily basis, it's not quite sure if you're painting a picture whether the brush stroke is going to work quite as well in the same way as your wrist work and your action, are they going to produce that amazing late swing or not? Totally agree. It makes you that much more anxious as a swing bowler,

but he's got through that and realised that on days when it doesn't swing, he can still be really effective. I mean, we would bowl completely differently to Gus, for instance, would be? Because he would bowl a little bit shorter, he'd bowl into the pitch, but you and I trying to bowl our swing about a little bit fuller, almost trying to sort of kiss the ball off the surface, that extra bit of length

would help the ball swing away. I have to be honest, I didn't have a plan B really. And that was my failing. Well, it could have been in a way your reliability also. The fact that you were always consistently at the batsman,

weren't you? A few bounces and things like that. Yes, but it's what he's developed for those days when the ball doesn't swing that I admire the most. They've never heard of this wobble scene thing before. When occasionally, I mean, bear in mind, I played two years with Andy Roberts,

who again was a master in that time of innovation. It was fairly basic innovation, bowling out swingers from wide of the crease, in swingers from close to the stump, so a little bit of double bluffery going on. And he used to bowl occasionally that cross-seam ball, but that was usually just thought to be a sort of a bouncer, really, so it would either hit the leather and skim on quickly

or hit the seam rotating backwards and just kick up a little bit. to actually run up and bowl like that because for a start it damages the leather for a start, isn't it? I don't know, it always seems rather a defensive thing for me if he held it that way. Yeah, but the wobble scene for him has been something he's learned from a couple of overseas bowlers.

I think it was Stuart Clark who did it for Australia and it was also Mohammedati for Pakistan. He saw their skills the way they zip the ball around without apparently doing anything swimming. swing-wise in the air, it just sort of nipped off the pitch. Vernon Philander's another one who seems to have that knack, and Anderson's acquired that as well as the late swing. We should just look at one or two stats,

because people have said, oh, he's not as good away from home as he is in England. I mean, the stats have sort of slightly backed that up in that he's taken 360 wickets in England at 23, and 196 elsewhere at 32. So it is a higher average away from home, but actually 32 bowling in India, Australia, South Africa, is pretty respectable and he's got that down over time and the fact that his overall career average is now around 26 is phenomenal

and I just love the wickets that he's taken in that decade if you look at the wickets, the leading wicket takers by decade over the last 50 or 60 years in the world it's quite interesting just to compare that so if we go back to the 1950s Richie Benno was the leading wicket taking the world in the 1950s with 165, jumped to the 1970s Derek Underwood 202. 1980s, Malcolm Marshall, phenomenal.

I mean, he was probably the greatest baller that's ever been for skills, really, and pace as well. Skill linked to pace. Skill linked to pace. 323 in the 1980s. Shane Warren, inevitably, dominated the 1990s, 351 wickets. Murielie dominated the 2000s with 571. But then Anderson, in the 2010s, 408 wickets now.

And only three in this match so far. But it's a phenomenal performance. And it's a phenomenal performance not only of skill, but longevity, stamina, consistency, and actually desire as well. What I really admire, by then, too, is the disguise. Yes. I did have a, I had an in-swinger, but it was such a bad one that Peter Willey,

when he was batting him in the nets, which out, oh no, as I started my run-up. And I could never get the hang of somehow making it all look the same. But Anderson could do that. Just with fingers. Yes. And in that reverse swing mode, he actually hides. He runs into bowl shielding the ball from the bounce one.

I mean, again, the hours of work and how he's, I mean, he'd been helped with the video and stuff. Of course, we didn't have on all these different films and the level of coaching and so on the heel of had now. But to go into that sort of depth, I think it's brilliant. I mean, it explains again why he's on a completely different level than your eye. And also, he's able. to be sort of three bowlers in one, isn't he? Because he starts with those out swing over the wicket,

and then if it doesn't swing, he's got the wobble seam, so he's trying to nip it off the wicket. And then he can go round the wicket to the left-handers and almost be like a left-arm over bowler. That's also Stuart Broad as perfected as well, curving the ball away from the left-handed batsman, like a left-arm over.

So he's just got such versatility within this incredible blanket of control. I think he has been fortunate, That's right, pulling it, and you talked about it at the end there, of just being a test-match bowler these days. I mean, he doesn't have any of the stresses and the strains of having to, and indeed having to bowl in different ways. They do have to, imagine James Anderson trying to bowl in T20

and having to, I know, bowl strange things and disguises and odd slower balls. Yeah, I mean, I'd imagine it would probably jigger him up a bit. Even Anderson, it'd take a while to get back to bowling with a red ball again. Definitely, and things like practicing wide yorkers. That takes a lot out of you physically. You're trying to still bowl that pace for 84 miles an hour. And his pace, by the way, is still consistently 83, 84 miles an hour, even though he's now 36 years old.

But bowling a full ball outside the off stump, trying to just about hit those lines they mark to mark a wide in one day cricket. That really is physically hard. It's harder, I think, the bowling a bouncer. Trying to bowl it really full. You have to really bend your back and sling it down. You have to do that two or three times, and the bats melts it back over your head into the pavilion.

or gets down on one knee and ramps you over the keeper's head. It's demoralising. Exactly. And all that's out of his game. And Stuart Broad's too, for that matter. How long do you reckon he'll go on then? I mean, he's very fit. He was saying in that interview there, he's looking forward to Sri Lanka,

which is obviously in October, and the West Indies after that. Obviously, it's the ashes next year. He's absolutely going to be up for that. You can't ever know quite when another injury will come along. But, yeah, he looks after his body very well. He does a lot of stretching, a lot of flexibility work. You'll see him before play now. He'll be out there.

If he's going to bowl again after lunch, he'll be out there with the 3KG medicine balls, just doing a few simple exercises, slinging the ball to one of the bowling coaches or one of the other coaches, just to keep his muscles primed and ready to go. I mean, it's difficult to know, isn't it, when something terminal is going to happen to you.

But the great thing with him is his legs look in prime Nick, and your legs are almost the key to your bowling. Well, on Simon. I mean, really interesting. I mean, swing bowling is such an extraordinary skill, I think. Changing all the time, people are learning all the time. But the good old traditional out-swingers, in-swingers and everything else, absolutely, it's a wonderful part of this sport.

Thank you, Russia, indeed. A lovely interview with James Anderson. Thanks for taking the time to download this BBC Radio 5 Live podcast. To search for other podcasts you might like, Click BBC.co.com.uk slash five live, where you'll also find our terms of use.