Test Match Special - South Africa or New Zealand - who'll win the Women's T20 World Cup?

Episode Date: October 19, 2024

Henry Moeran is joined by England bowler Tash Farrant and Daniel Norcross to look ahead to the Women's T20 World Cup Final between South Africa and New Zealand in Dubai.

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Well, hello, this is Henry Moran, sitting in a cafe in downtown Dubai. You might occasionally hear the rumble of a sports car going past, the honking of the horns as the taxis come and go. We can see the Burj Khalifa in the distance with its spire twinkling way up high, and we're all set for a World Cup final. None of us saw coming. Tash Varen, Daniel Norcross, sitting here with me. Coffees in hand and looking ahead to what is, Daniel, first of all,

a final none of us saw coming. No, before we came out here and actually for the first week and a half you and I would sit chewing the cud of an evening going, well, it can only be one of three teams. India, England and Australia, only one of those three teams can win the final, can get to the final.

Yes, we thought maybe South Africa might do that. Outside Bet, New Zealand, they had such a torrid time in England. I don't think anybody saw the West Indies getting close. Of course, they made the semi-final. It's been a tournament, of shocks, actually. And the weird thing about it is that the two most fancy teams, Australia and England,

they've only lost one match each, exactly the same number of matches as the two finalists. But I think it's the final that these two teams deserve. I think they've played the canniest cricket, the most intelligent cricket, and I think they've read the conditions best, and that's why they're there. The bravest cricket as well, I think we can also say, the way that they approached crucial knockout matches with a real boldness of strategy and approach. I think that is just reward for what they've done. Tash, in terms of these two sides making it to the final and the way that they've got there,

is it necessarily the best two teams in this tournament that have made it through? It's hard to say, really. I guess they have been the best when the pressure has been on. I think Australia in that group stage, they looked pretty sort of untouchable. But actually the way that South Africa sort of dealt with that game and they just went out there and they almost played with such a freedom because they were, they knew that they were the under- dogs. Everyone knew that they were the underdogs. So I guess to get to the final, it doesn't really

matter how you were in the group stages. I guess they've just built on each game and they both have lost one game in those group stages. But it's all about how you deal with the pressure. So I think in terms of how they've dealt with the pressure and that's why they deserve to be here, South Africa, I think, have looked really good as well, maybe sort of on par with England and Australia in those group stages. I think Laura Walva, has led her team really well. I think they've been played really smart cricket and as Daniel said, I think they've read the conditions

brilliantly because actually what we've seen in this tournament and so we've played on so many different wickets only playing at two stadiums, but actually the ground staff have prepared pretty much a different wicket for every other game. So each time a team has gone up to a different sort of game and a ground, they've had to assess the conditions each time and I think that's what these two teams have done brilliantly. Also, I think we've got to look at the fact that both these two teams have played what were in effect knockout games quite early on.

South Africa knew that in the group it was going to be two out of three West Indies, South Africa and England. And so they had to lose only one at most. They lost to England. They had to meet the West Indies. They did it convincingly. New Zealand, they had a very similar situation. For them, it was India, Australia and themselves. And they played Australia first up.

and they absolutely ambushed them. They played really fearless cricket in posting 160. They thrashed India, and from that point on, that just gave them a little bit of leeway. So, look, I've been really impressed by when these sides have had to seize the moment, the way they have seized the moment, and of course, the other knockout games, semifinals, which they both won actually pretty well.

Let's go through those semifinals. Before we look ahead to the matchups that are going to make this final so intriguing. Tash, we've had a couple of days to reflect on Australia, getting booted out of the tournament that for so often, for so many years, just been a procession to the final and who's going to lose to them in that final. They were absolutely hammered by South Africa. They look shell-shocked. We've seen them around the team hotel.

And they've looked a bit bewildered by all. Yeah, they definitely have because, you know, they would have come to this tournament wanting to win another trophy and put another one in their trophy cabinet. But we did feel that actually South Africa, if they put Australia into bat, which what happened at the toss, then Australia sometimes can actually leave a few runs out there because they don't normally get put under pressure.

So actually, sort of, after that toss, we thought, oh, South Africa, they have a decent chance here if they can restrict Australia to a total that they think that they can sort of chase down. They did that. Australia only got 134 for five, which was criminal actually because they had the lights of Ash Gardner and Annabelle. I still haven't got over this.

It's so weird how they approach that innings. It was so weird. It hasn't really sunk in. really know what's happened. I'm sure they're going to be sort of ruining that for a very, very long time because they could have easily, if they'd used their resources, got to sort of 150, 160. So that was so strange. But then South Africa pounced on that. They pounced on Australia's timidness. And they just came out there in that second innings and batted brilliantly. Laura Wolvert has been a standout in this tournament, as she was in the last tournament, Tasman

Brits as well. They're both number one and two in the leading run scores for this tournament. but then it was Anika Bosch, who had had a lot of stick, actually, going into that semi-final. She'd come in at number three. People were calling for Marizan Cap to come in earlier, but she scored 74 off 48. I think it was her second ball that actually she went for a huge slog sweep. She didn't actually get it off, but it was more the mindset that she had. And then she just kept going and kept going. And the Aussies looked really rattled, actually.

And that was because of the way that the South African batters came out. They put pressure on an Aussie side that don't normally feel that pressure. What were they doing, Daniel? Well, I think there's a problem that Australia have got and it's a weird one. You would say, what on earth are you talking about when I say that they've got too many batters and too many bowlers?

And the reason is that when you play most of your T20 cricket, you're playing franchise cricket, you're playing in the 100, the women's big batter, women's Premier League. You are probably one of six bowlers and probably one of six top batters and there's an all-rounder in there. Now, with Australia, I'm not sure that they have got role clarity.

It was clear from the way that they put their team together that Georgia Wareham coming in as a pinch hitter just didn't work. Phoebe Litchfield not properly used, batting down the order. She's one of the best batters in the world. She proved that in the semi-final when she came in and alongside Perry hit 40 off the last four overs. That was a kind of portent of what was to come because it showed the South Africans that the pitch was good and that runs could be scored just that South Africa had restricted Australia early through a lack of ambition on Australia's batters part. And I think in a way this is a problem. If you've

don't quite know what your role is in the team. Annabel Sutherland was being used primarily as a shock pace bowler, a strike bowler, which she did well, but she's also a phenomenal batter. Ash Gardner does sort of two roles, but she's been moving and floating around the order. You look at South Africa, they're very settled. They know exactly who they want in what position. They know who their frontline bowlers are, and then they make up a fifth bowler out of three bowlers, Chloe Tryon, Nadine de Clerc, and Sune Elise. And what South Africa did that Australia didn't do, is South Africa knew that every single Australian bowler is a good bowler. So you don't target any specific bowler. You've just got to go hard.

Whereas for Australia, they needed to target a bowler and they just didn't do it until it was too late. And I suppose that's where a bit of clarity comes in because South Africa are a team, which has basically got a kind of franchise setup. They've got six bowlers. They've got six batters. That's kind of how they operate. And in a way, that's a bit more natural. isn't it? Is it a little bit like Spendgor and Erickson's England? Now, forgive the analogy here where they've got all these resources. It's not knowing where to play Lampard and Gerard and Paul's goals out on the left wing. It's almost as though you've got to get them all in because they're all really good, but you don't quite how to do it. Yeah, I think that's actually

a very good analogy. And it must be frustrating as hell for Annabelle Sutherland to be batting down at 8. It must be frustrating for Phoebe Litchfield to see Georgia Wareham go in at three. They've got their opening line up wrong. We've got to say, you lose your captain. It's quite important in T20 and Alyssa Healy didn't play the last few games because of a foot injury. But then to advance Grace Harris to open when you've got a natural opener in Phoebe Litchfield, that was overthinking. They didn't want two left-handed openers. But a lot of teams have two right-handed openers because they don't have any left-handers. So you should just be going with the people who play best in those positions. Grace Harris should have been in the middle order

and Phoebe Litchfield should have been at the top. It's easy for us to say though because we're not the one's trying to shoehorn, as you say, all these talents into 11. The thing about cricket is 11's supposed to be one player too few. For Australia, they have got about four players too many. What about this second semi-final then, Tash? A different game, very different game. It was all about tension and could West Indies be squeezed in the run chase. New Zealand, they did really well in what they were doing and what they were planning, and Charger offered something completely different. Yeah, they did. We obviously played, we saw that game yesterday at Sharjah and a slower wicket we have seen on average lower scores there. New Zealand, they haven't batted amazing in their last couple of games. They slightly sort of floundered against Pakistan, but they got over the line with the ball there. And it was similar actually yesterday that Susie Bates got a start, not a quick start, 26 off 28 and Georgia Plimmer, who has been brilliant in this tournament. She's actually their leading run scorer, which we, we, we didn't expect going into this tournament because she has had a really tough year.

She got 33 off 31. So they really struggled to get going. We thought West Indies were really disciplined with the ball, actually. They really hit their lines and lengths. And normally, it's not something normally that you associate with West Indies cricket is being really disciplined with the ball. I think we only saw the sort of the first extra after about 12 over. So they were on it with the ball and the field. So you've got to give credit to them.

And they made it really tricky for New Zealand. So they got up to that 120. and to be honest there was definitely I thought under par but I kind of had this feeling that actually you know West Indies they like we saw with England they could chase this down in about 12 or 14 overs or they could be all out for 80

and New Zealand they were very clear they had done their homework we've seen teams not do their homework on the likes of Keanu Joseph who we've seen sort of in the first game really failed struggle to get anywhere near the ball but then she took England down in that effectively that quarter final game but they were really smart when they bowled against her they took it outside of her arc they bowled it back of a length as well i thought they the fields that they

had to her was brilliant so they sort of nullified her threat she only got a run a ball 12 and then from their west indies they just couldn't get going they actually lost chel henry in that first and was with a terrible sort of drop catch that hit a right square on the forehead that was it was not nice to see so they lost their number six there stephanie taylor she came back into the side, but she hasn't really had that much fluency in T20 cricket for quite a long time. So I thought the New Zealand young spinners bowled brilliantly. I thought Fran Jonas, with those sort of left arm in swingers in the power play, along with Eden Carson, she actually picked up player of the match again yesterday. So I thought the trio of New Zealand

spinners bowed brilliantly. And then it was the excitement at the end. D.D. She came in and whacked Leah Tohoo-hoo all over the ground. She has hit the most amount of sixes in this tournament by far out of anyone. But then they needed 15 of the last over. And Leah to Hoo-hoo, they'd only bowled five bowlers at this stage. She'd got some taps. She'd gone for 11. She had one over left.

We saw Brooke Halliday actually come up. She took her cap off. And then Sophie Devine made a quick last-minute change. And she went for the experience of Susie Bates. She was playing in a 33rd international game for New Zealand. she took the last over she got hit for four of her first ball and then the pressure was on

but then she closed it out she bowed brilliantly she's not someone normally who takes the ball especially in the last over of a semi-final and you could just see the pure emotion of Susie Bates and the rest of her New Zealand side to actually get to a World Cup final after so long

what about that Deandra Dotten 16th over then she'd bowled by the way and taken four for which is going to be a footnote in the story of the semi-final but but Daniel That 16th over, Lear Tahoe, who smashed for 23, three sixes going sailing away into the leg's side. It was thrilling. At the start of the over, the West Indies had lost the match. They needed to go at two of all, and two of all and Charger is just a ridiculously impossible ask.

At the end of the over, they needed 34 off four, with a Deandra Dotting going berserk, and they'd basically won the match. It was absolutely thrilling and amazing cricket. You know, Deandra Dotting hit more sixes in that over than England managed in the entire competition. the same number as Australia managed in there in the entire competition. She's been the player of the competition for me, Deandra dotted. At performances with the ball, she didn't bowl the first three games. She's hardly bowled a ball for a year and a bit, maybe two years. She landed yorker after yorker after yorker.

She did not deserve to be on the losing side. But what we saw yesterday, and Tash alluded to it there, is two teams who are in the semi-final by dint of doing their homework. Tournament cricket is about watching the games, seeing who's doing what. knowing what your opponents are and responding and having plans for them. And those two teams, they don't have the best players. They don't have players as good. They don't have a team as good as England and Australia.

But my word, they've used the resources they've got so brilliantly. The agility of Sophie Devine as captain to make that last minute decision, Tash was talking about, the ability of Susie Bates to come up and bowl an over, when she has not bowled in yonks like DeAndre Dotten. But unlike DeAndre Dotting, she's not bowling 71, Mar-Prower Yorkers. She's bowling off-spin, which is the most vulnerable kind of bowling there can be, albeit she was starting against the left-hander. But nonetheless, it was brilliant to watch. It was brilliant to watch a very cerebral game of cricket. And you don't always

associate that necessarily with the West Indies and New Zealand, because they don't really have the resources to do that. They kind of generally tend to rely on their big guns, Bates Devine Kerr for New Zealand, Dotting, Matthews, Stefani Taylor for the West Indies. But actually, what saw were two teams playing against each other as teams and that's why they deserve to be there and it's why whoever won that game I think is a worthy finalist against South Africa because I think you'll see two sides who have done their homework against each other we're going to see another game in which the captains know exactly what to expect both from their own team and from their opponent South Africa are unchanged throughout this tournament they have

not made any changes they know exactly what their lineup is and what they're supposed to be doing. New Zealand have arrived at that. They started with Jessica, but they've now got a very settled line up. Eden, Carson, Fran Jonas in there. Lear to Hoohoo, yeah, notwithstanding that 23 run over, you can get dotined. People get dottinged.

And that happened to Who Who? Yesterday, it'll be a different matter when she comes up against South Africa. They've got Anika Bosch, but no one is Deandra Dotting. So look, I just think we've got a terrific final on our hands against two teams who deserve to be there and who know what they're doing.

I'm going to get something off my chest now because it's been bugging me for a few days ever since it happened. You speak about a cerebral final teams that have made their plans. I had a conversation with the member of the England team and I'm not going to betray names but it tells a story and I asked them

what have you made on the pitch, Sharja? And their reply was I've not really watched any of the other games. And for me, you've got two teams make it through to the final where they have been on it. They know their plans and actually I was really disappointed to hear that, Tash.

Yeah, I guess. you'd kind of hope that, you know, even if they don't watch, you know, cricket on the telly much, they would have done their homework. But I do think England will look back and, you know, the way that they bowled to Keanu Joseph, I mean, Haley Matthews is a gun player, but Keanu Joseph, she's almost got one shot. And they were bowling in that slot, basically, with not the right field. So I think that England will look back and think, you know, actually we probably didn't plan enough for Keanu Joseph because it didn't look like it was an execution thing, actually.

You can sort of forgive players, you know, if they just haven't executed their skills. But it looked like actually they had the wrong plan to. Or actually, they didn't really have a plan to her. It was almost like they were probably focusing more so on the likes of Haley Matthew. So I do think that has been the best thing about the two teams that we're going to see in the final, New Zealand and South Africa. I also think we've seen Australia go out when they didn't have their captain, Alyssa Healy. We've also seen England go out when we obviously Heather Knight had to come off. at the pitch when she was batting

because she's done something to her calf. So actually, it's been quite interesting that those two powerhouse teams without their normal captains have really struggled and they've looked quite flustered when they have been put under pressure. Whereas on the other hand,

I thought Sophie Devine captained brilliantly yesterday. I thought she had her plans, right? I thought she made really good bowling changes when she didn't have that many runs to play with. And then I just thought it was a stroke of genius when she puts Susie Bates on. I mean, it could have gone both ways. And we kind of thought, what has she done when that first ball went for four?

But actually, by not going for Leah to hoo-hoo, and also not bowling herself, because she hasn't been in the best of forms herself. And sometimes as a captain, you might actually think, right, I'm going to do this for the team. But actually, West Indies just would not have been expecting Susie Bates to bowl an over, let alone the last over. So I thought she captained brilliantly. But also, Laura Woolvar, she's done her homework as well. They look a very settled unit. I think she's a very calm, cool character. actually it's interesting that I think two of the best captains in this tournament, then

their teams are in the final. Yeah, just to amplify that point, I thought there were two really brilliant examples of it yesterday. Georgia Plymer has hit, she's got a wagon wheel that's basically a great big thick spoke that goes pretty much behind the bowler. Very straight. It's very straight to the offside and on side behind the bowler. And so what do the West Indies do, they bowled a hard length just outside the off stump. And Plymer, that takes that shot out. She's not great at the cut. She's not great at guiding the ball through backward point.

And they kind of nullified Plymouth who's had a surprisingly good tournament. Similarly, Eden Carson's ball to get rid of Keanu Joseph was one of the most brave bits of bowling I have ever seen. They knew exactly what shot Keanu Joseph was going to play. And she put this wonderful looping off spinner. Again, it's a fearful form of bowling. You're very exposed if you get it wrong. she looped it up, it dipped

and she knew that Keanu Joseph was playing to hit the ball that was about another six inches further forward because that's the ball she's always looking to hit. But by bringing it back with such skill, it gripping and taking the off stump, it was both brave and it was clearly planned.

And just to amplify both captains there, actually, Haley Matthews and Sophie Devine gave her such a good game. And yes, Wolfart I thought she captained South Africa was superbly against Australia. They had their plans were really about sticking to their own bowling plans because you come up against Australian batter

and you think to yourself well taking wickets doesn't necessarily slow down the scoring rate and in fact had they not run out Beth Mooney and Phoebe Litchfield had not been able to get in for another couple of overs I think they probably would have got even fewer than 135 so it was about bowling to their bowlers plans and to their own strengths and I think that chose a lot of confidence

and a lot of bravery to do that so what's going to happen tomorrow Then Tash, this is the big question because we've got two teams for whom part of me wonders there might be a degree of who panics least. Because it's going to be a new winner of this tournament. And what an opportunity. Yeah, it is an opportunity. Both teams, you know, they would have come into this tournament and wanting to win it absolutely. But they would have had huge doubts in their mind, obviously with the likes of India, England and Australia.

They haven't had to play those teams in the semi-finals to get to the final. I honestly can't call it, which makes it so. exciting because normally we see Australia in the final and whoever's you know coming up against them are always the underdog so I think that's what makes is going to make this tournament so memorable because we have got two new teams we're going to have a new winner on the trophy I think you're right Henry I think that you know there's such a huge opportunity now for either of these teams whereas actually you can imagine England India and Australia the next World Cup probably we are going to see one of them in the final so this is like almost their year to

do it and I think obviously for the likes of Sophie Devine and Susie Bates they've you know had such sort of a tough time with New Zealand they've obviously love playing for their country they're so patriotic they've done the hard yards so for them to win a trophy I think would be well we don't know if this will be their last 2020 World Cup it might be so it might be a brilliant send-off for them we who knows about that so I don't know I think it could be quite a cagey start to the final because I think both teams have been very planned I actually think the bowlers have been brilliant I think if New Zealand can take a couple of early wickets

at that top three of South Africa who have been so good for their team and actually the middle order haven't had to do too much if they can get Laura Wolver early I think that will be a huge wicket. I can't really call it. My gut is saying that I think New Zealand might just come out on top just because of the likes of Susie Bates, Sophie Devine

and also winning a really close game like yesterday actually if you're in that position again you've just done it so it's kind of fresh in your mind how to get over a really close game. But then obviously South Africa, they've beaten the world champion, so their confidence will be rocket high. I can't call it, I'm sitting on the fence. I think it's really tricky as well, actually.

I mean, trying to break it down into the constituent part. South Africa got the two leading runs scorers. They opened the batting, Wolfart and Brits. But that makes them a little bit exposed if they lose those couple of wickets early. But that said, Anna Kabosh played an amazing innings, the innings of the tournament against Australia. They've got it, Marizanne Cap, Probably the best seamer on either side.

They've got bigger names, I would say, for New Zealand. I just want to name a couple of people. Brooke Halliday and Izzy Gaze yesterday, they went under the radar, but they played two vitally important innings to get New Zealand to a defendable total in that semi-final. You run through that card, and there's the only stand-out player in the tournament for New Zealand.

Well, I suppose you'd say Georgia Plimmer as well, is Mili Kerr, with the ball, leading wicket-taker. But South Africa have got Kapp and Malaba. So when you go head to head, I think you see South Africa come out on top. But when you look at what the team can produce going further down, for example, you haven't really seen Chloe Chion and Suneleese. We haven't really seen the lower order of South Africa tested in the same way. And New Zealand will have that memory.

So it's so, so difficult to call. But whatever happens, it's going to be a brilliant story for whichever team wins. For South Africa, they have never won a World Cup men's or women's there. Men were heartbreakingly on the brink they needed, basically a runner ball against India in the men's T20 World Cup final and blew it. Surely the women have got a point to prove. They want to prove to the men that you give us a chance, we can actually bring home the trophy. But similarly, that pressure, that weight of hope and expectation is enormous. For New Zealand, I just feel they've got a bit more of a free hit.

For Bates and Divine, it might well be their last T20 World Cups, and they've seen it all and done it all. and their younger players are playing with such abandon and fearlessness, they'll believe that this is the first chance of a few after what's happened in this tournament. So, look, I think the pressure's less on New Zealand that might make the difference, but head-to-head South Africa are touch better. Let's not forget, Tash, New Zealand lost 10 games running

coming into this tournament. I know is a slight caveat that England and Australia were the opponents, but still the confidence would have been rocked. bottom and to have come in the way they have to be World Cup finalists it's a real story is yeah it is but i'm honestly not surprised because i know a few of this team very well played a lot with susie bates mili cur and they are such a good team they are a epitome of a team that sticks together there was a moment when i i went into the gym and the new zealand girls it was i think they were doing a fitness challenge which normally you don't sort of see in competition

times. I think they were sort of, they were in groups of three and they had to go on each machine and sort of see how many miles they could clock up and they were having so much fun and actually also sort of put, seeing, Catherine said this yesterday actually sort of, you know, fitness challenges, for example, you kind of see your teammates in pain and I think I do believe that actually even though they've had a torrid time, they always stick together as a team. I don't know if that's sort of the personality of New Zealand people because they just seem like great humans, but I think also the senior players that they've got in their side, Sophie Devine, Susie Bates, Amelia, even though she's still so young. I think they are really good

role models for their young players, the likes of Georgia Plymer, who's had a bit of a shocker over the last year, now look what she's doing. Fran Jonas took a bit of tap as well, and Eden Carson. So you can say that also about the New Zealand management. Fair play to them, because it might be a resource thing. They probably don't have as many resources as Australia, as England, as India but they have stuck with their players who have struggled over the last year and now look they're reaping the rewards and I think that is because they are really together as a team and they go through the highs and they've had a lot of lows as well and they've come out the other side so that is why I slightly think they might just edge South Africa I'm not saying

they're not a good team I don't feel like I know as many of them as close as I do the New Zealand girls but I'm not surprised because they stick together as a team and you know you can see that the pitch, but also you've seen it on the pitch as well in pressure situations. Just finally, Daniel, where is this match won and lost, do you think? What is the significance of the toss, perhaps? I'm not sure that there is one, actually, because I think New Zealand will want to set, and I think South Africa will be happy to chase. So you almost might not have to do the toss.

I think it's going to be about execution and nerve on the day. It's going to come down to really small things. it's going to come down to somebody putting in a performance that you're not expecting but it could be a little 20 off 12 at the back end to get the side setting up to a proper score

it could just be somebody like Malaba bowling the ball that gets out the set batter it's going to come down I think to small things or one side could crumble under the expectation because I've made no bonus about it as Tash said

it is a very unusual usual final. And the next final could very well be between England and Australia or Australia and India or England and India. Those three teams aren't going away. They're going to lick their wounds. They're going to have a look at what's gone wrong and their teams will come back better prepared and all over it for the next World Cup, which is in England as well. Don't forget. So there will be a bit of who can seize history and who keeps their nerve under that. And now I've said that, I kind of veer towards New Zealand because in Bates and Divine

I think you've got people who they know how to seize the day. Both of you have managed to argue the case brilliantly for both teams there, so who knows? And that's brilliant, that's what we want for a final. Right, let's hear the international view for Dos Munda, South African cricket writers been with us throughout the tournament. Also

Crick Info's Valcari Baines I caught up with them to get their thoughts on the tournament as a whole. Bring more gear, carry more passengers, face greater challenges. Welcome to the world of Defender, with seating up to eight, ample cargo space, and legendary off-road capability.

It's built to make the most of every adventure. Learn more at landrover.ca. TMS at the ICC Women's T20 World Cup. Well, this tournament has seen a couple of real shocks, with England knocked out by West Indies and South Africa, unbelievably, in many ways, beating Australia quite so comfortably in the first. semi-final for Deuce. Munda was watching on as part of our team,

this was Valkyry Baynes watching from the commentary box for Crick Invo. Valkyrie, first of all. I mean, this is going to be the headline story that reverberates around world cricket. It's almost unbelievable Australia knocked out. Yeah, absolutely. I guess they've come into this tournament with that reputation, that aura and all that, which we've talked about for the last three, you know, three tournaments straight than being on that streak. But I guess the overwhelming feeling I'm getting around the point. is that it's like, yay, someone else's turn finally. I'm just feeling that from everywhere.

And just, I guess, for World Cricket, people are happy to see, you know, someone else get a go. I know what that last tournament meant to everybody in South African sport and seeing South Africa fall at the final hurdle. Yeah, they've still got to get over that hurdle. But what a story to beat Australia. Yeah, absolutely incredible. Sport is like the one thing that South Africans are good at because there are many other things that are problematic in the country.

And I don't actually think a lot of people believe they'd beat Australia. only beat them for the first time in a T20 earlier this year. So this is only the second time they've beaten them in a T20. They've only beaten them once in a one day international and that was also earlier this year. And the way that they beat them, it was clinical, it was professional. I'm even going to say it was dominant and Australia looked shocked and South Africa looked completely calm. And I know why, because Laura Wolfart told me that the thing Paul Adams did with them was a meditation. And what was that involving? What was the message within that all about calm and belief? Yeah, it was about visualizing themselves, getting to the final, and also perhaps winning the final, though she didn't say that.

So it was eyes closed, sitting in a circle, manifesting what they want themselves to become. And, of course, they're not the only teams who have reached a World Cup final here in Dubai. It was the South African under 19 side, captain by Aidan Markram, with Kakisorabada in it, that won the tournament here 10 years ago. So if we're looking for signs and what may or may not be written in the stars, you make of that what you will. Falca, you mentioned that the idea that in some ways we're all relieved to see Australia out because of the fact you want to see different winners. It takes nothing away from how brilliant they've been as a side,

but it is a reminder that actually while we sometimes say the gap is huge, bold and brave play can sometimes really narrow that gap. Yeah, absolutely. And especially in T20 cricket, and even the players always say that themselves, look, you have the best night, you win the game. So I guess, you know, they're going to take that away from here. but yeah I guess you're right it doesn't take away from what a magnificent side this has been

over a long period of time don't forget they have had a lot of change too over the last year or two I mean Meg Lanning the captain who led them to the last T20 World Cup trophy she is now retired from international cricket they obviously had as we know elisa healy their current captain out on the sidelines having a very difficult watch to see that go down while she couldn't do anything about it but I guess going full for them. I mean, what they were saying sort of after the match was that this has allowed some, you know, some other players to step in and keep that depth going and, you know, give them experiences that they might not have otherwise had Tully McGrath's captain and that sort of thing.

And Phoebe Litchfield with that great cameo at the end. I mean, this is her first World Cup. So they're taking positives in that sense that, you know, this isn't the end of the world. They're going to be back. In terms of the semi-finalists for this, I think at the start of the tournament, if we'd said, you're not going to have England, you're not going to have India, and you're not going to have Australia making it through to that final. You just said you're mad. Definitely. They were in pretty much everybody's pick.

We had a bit of a straw poll at a Crick Info around who we thought would reach there. I think I was the only one who maybe had Sri Lanka as an outside candidate, but I was trying to be ridiculous and how ridiculous I was proved to be. Those are the three teams that we really expected. I think India was the team that really thought after getting the WPL going and with the huge professionalisation they've done in the last few years that maybe this was theirs to win and they were then shocked in the very first game. Australia and England, of course,

the teams to have won this the most. England, not since 2009. Tell us a little more, because you spoke about Annery Dirkson on commentary, and sort of upbringing in challenges that these players have gone through to get to the position where they are. Yeah, so Annery Dirkson grew up on a farm,

which had no electricity for the first 10 years of her life. She didn't have a TV or the lights on at night, and that was in the 2000s. You know, we're not talking about the 1970s here. But other players, Non-Kululekumalaba and Ayabonga Kaka, who grew up in townships, which are massively underprivileged areas in South Africa, very far away from cities, very far away from stadiums. They needed help in order to stay closer to the stadium in order to be able to train.

Ayabonga Kaka ended up at Infineko and Gams Academy at the University of Forteer. Non-Kululal Malabha ended up very close to Kingsmead, helped by Kwasul Natal Cricket. Both of them then got the ability to train. There are really success stories of the development of South African cricket. But I also want to give a word to Tasman Brits, who was involved in a car accident that could have killed her. ended up working in a grocery store and was just sort of biding her time waiting to see what would happen

when a pathway manager from Cricket South Africa realized she wanted to play cricket and asked Cricket South Africa to intervene to pay a stipend so she could leave the grocery store and play the game. They did it. It was a tiny stipend and look at her now. So South Africa doesn't have a lot. Cricket South Africa almost went bankrupt a few years ago.

But the little that they've got, they've made work. And to me that is really incredible. And this is as a wider context in the story Valkyrie. This is why the fact that these teams have made it through is so important because it will tell the boards, it will tell the young athletes in these countries look at the opportunities that are out

there and the potential to do something amazing. Absolutely. That's spot on and I think also too just a nod to our other finalist New Zealand. They we've spoken to Sophie Devine their captain. She's been quite open about the fact that they've got such

a tiny population to draw a pool of players from a nation. that's obsessed with rugby. Netball's really big. There's, you know, competing interest there. So to sort of get players through, like she said, it's a real challenge to get, build that depth. But they've persisted. We've seen them come off a really rough sort of 18 months where they just, they've played series after series and not been winning much at all. Finally, they've just persisted. It's all gelled. And there's younger players that she's been talking about, you're Eden Carson, those kind of players who, you know, who's been really good here.

basically they're starting to come through and it's all sort of coming to fruition for them at the right time. And you're looking at prize money of into the millions of dollars. It is equal with the men's competition. This could be life-changing and it will be life-changing, whatever team wins this now. Absolutely. I mean, I'm just thinking from a South African perspective, the US dollar is almost 20 South African Rans. So whatever you're reading on the prize money times 20 is what will be coming home if they win that. Even if they don't, the money is already very big. And I think the challenges to that that money is properly invested. it's about especially in countries with a big population like South Africa

getting out to the areas that wouldn't otherwise be able to be reached and then it's about developing players I think the rugby team does it really well they find players and they develop them right through so they've got a player competing in every position of every race group and that is an incredible story this tournament just finally Valcrie we came into it it moved at the last minute we saw Australia and England coming into it with brilliant form and brilliant history and all this resource and we thought well it's going to be one of those two or India And look at it, it could be one of the great stories in women's World Cup cricket history.

Absolutely. And you'll always hear me, say, me, people hear my accent and then they see Australia, like something like that, having to go, oh, what do you think? What do you think? But I always say, I cheer for the story. And I think no matter what happens in that final on Sunday, it's going to be a great story. Well, that was Fidostmunda and Valkyri Baines chatting to me here in Dubai, where we have the final of the T20 World Cup to look forward to Sunday afternoon, Test match special, live from the Dubai International Cricket Stadium from 245. South Africa against New Zealand.

Who knows which way it's going to go. We've got a new winner of this tournament. We just don't know who it is as yet. Really looking forward to it. Do join us Sunday afternoon. TMS at the ICC Women's T20 World Cup. Hello, I'm Greg James. He's Felix White.

Hello. And that is England's greatest ever bowler. Jimmy Anderson. Hello. Felix, what can people expect to hear on tailenders? A loosely cricket-based chat, and we've probed Jimmy about not meeting Dalai Lama. Jimmy, what's your favourite thing about tailenders?

I like hanging out with you guys and listen to you talk about cricket and then putting you right when you get everything. Thanks for your support as ever. We also have some very special guests every now and then. Stuart Broad, so they're running into bowl, and I'm going to go on the top end, and you're bowling this thing because, you know,

you're going to get dropped, aren't you? I love it. That's tailenders. Listen now. on BBC Sounds. Go well.