Test Match Special - Stokes "very eager" to continue as captain

Episode Date: January 3, 2026

Eleanor Oldroyd is alongside Jonathan Agnew and Stephan Shemilt to look ahead to the final Ashes Test at the SCG. They discuss what rides on this final Test with the series already gone and the long-term plan for England's red-ball side.England captain Ben Stokes tells Aggers he's keen to take Ashes revenge in 2027, whilst Aussie captain Steve Smith says he wants more than what the recent SCG pitches have offered.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. To embrace the impossible requires a vehicle that pushes what's possible. Defender 110 boasts a towing capacity of 3,500 kilograms, a weighting depth of 900 millimetres and a roof load up to 300 kilograms. Learn more at landrover.ca. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Hello, I'm Eleanor Roldroyd, welcome to the TMS podcast from our commentary box in the Sydney Cricket Ground just one day away from the final test of this Ashes series. To come, we'll hear the thoughts of both captains, Ben Stokes and Steve Smith, and I'm joined by the BBC's chief cricket commentator Jonathan Agnew and Chief Cricket reporter Stefan Schemult to discuss just how much is riding on this final test at the SCG.

You're listening to the TMS podcast. Well, here we are high above the pitch at the SCG, which has still got the historic pavilion over to the right, one of the most iconic buildings, I think, in Australian cricket grounds. And there are some blue sky above. We're not quite sure exactly what the weather forecast is going to do over the next few days. But England, come to this test fresh off the victory in Melbourne. And as we look down at the pitch, which is being rolled at the moment, Jonathan Ben Stoke said in his press conference, conference, the most pressurized and nervous man in Sydney is the pitch curator here at the SCG, because the last thing anyone wants is another two-day test marks. Yeah, absolutely. Hello. Well, I mean, there is some pressure on him, and he's been rolling the life out of that. I'm watching him, that heavy roller, it's barely moving. He's moan it twice while I've been watching. I did go out and have a look, and I mean, there is some serious grass on it, but that's no surprise here. Traditionally, it's been a pitch

that's taken spin, but that's changed over recent years. There has been more grass on it. The game against India here barely went into three days so I mean it's there is some life in that service there will be

but of course financially cricket Australia are desperate that it goes as long as it as long as it possibly can but from an

England point of view I just want them to get it done win the game and build on the momentum that they picked up in Melbourne

and then that kind of makes everyone perhaps check slightly some of the stuff of still reading the papers sacking everybody

here there and everywhere well let's let's see how they go because for me it's no real surprise that they have picked up some momentum and have been playing better actually from that Adelaide test match onwards because they actually played some cricket

and if they can go away from here having learnt and reset that you actually do have to play games of cricket in order to play test cricket well then that at least is a step in the right direction without having to fire anybody and the momentum is a big thing I think Steph isn't it and you tried to ask get Ben Stokes to talk about

momentum going into the next ashes in 18 months time I mean, he wasn't having it really, but there's got to be some kind of sense of, right, okay, we saw what we could do in Melbourne. Yeah, no surprise there that Ben Stokes having none of my nonsense. And I was trying to think if there's anyone else in Sydney who's more nervous than the groundsman or under more pressure. And maybe there is. Maybe it's Rob Key. Maybe it's Brendan McCollum. Not that you'd tell from Brendan McCollum, of course.

But England, well, now we're in 2026, Ellie. We're talking about the next dash has been next year. And England, I think, including this. game play only 14 more test matches until the first of the next Ashes series in 2027 and that is not a long time and part of the reason why I asked Ben Stokes that question in the press conference was because Michael Vaughn had said that when England won here in 2003 they were four nil down came here and won to avoid a clean sweep and there's those pictures of the of the England team celebrating in front of the Barmy army with the flags

it looked like they'd won the series wasn't it Vaughn got 100 andrew Caddick took 10 wickets But Vaughn said that was the start, really, of the road to 2005 and that famous series win. And I'm thinking about Ben Stokes and Agers has spoken to him and we'll hear from him. But realistically, that 2027 last dashes test at the Oval, it's probably going to be Ben Stokes' last as an England cricketer and probably is last as England captain. And he'll be thinking, I want to go out holding the urn. And there'll be a lot of Australian cricketers who have earmarked that series as a full stop for them as well. Again, we're going to hear from Steve Smith, and we were trying to get him earlier on on his future. He said, you know, no, this is not my last test for Australia.

Well, if this isn't his last test for Australia, in August time, they start a run of 18 months that ends in that Ashes series in the UK. And this generation of players, Steve Smith, Pat Cummins, Mitchell Stark, maybe Nathan Lyon, amazingly, never won an Ashes series in the UK, not been since 2001. I grew up in the 90s. Australia hammered us every time they came to the UK. So that series in 2027 is going to be a full stop for lots of different reasons.

And England's momentum into that series starts now, really. Whether or not they have the same management, well, that could be impacted by what happens here this week. Well, despite Stefan's best efforts to make Ben Stokes look into his crystal ball and predict the future, He wasn't having any of it, but he spoke to Agers a little bit earlier on, and he was focusing very much on the matter in hand. So, Ben, this is, goes out saying, a big game.

And what difference is three two feel like to you after three nil? Yeah, obviously, when you lose a series in the first three games, it's disappointing. But then, yeah, obviously we got the, we got the result of Melbourne that we're after. And they're looking to hopefully get the same here. And, you know, as I said, there's. No such things to Deb Rubber when you're playing for England. So, yeah, we're really looking forward to getting going and hopefully we can, you know, put a game together

and be on the right side of the result again. Yeah. How important is it to win here going forwards? And by that, I mean, you, Brenda McCullum and Coe, I mean, do you feel that your futures depend on the result here? Oh, I don't know, that's out of our control. But look, I'm in terms of myself, look, I'm, you know, still very keen and very eager as so when I first took the job on to keep doing that you know it's it's not gone how we would have liked it to out here but look

we've got one more game and then we've got five six months before we play another test match so but we'll we'll get the you know what we needed to get done here and then yeah we got a bit of time off before the next test match yeah but you at least you'll you're focused on going forwards captain of England absolutely Okay, and does that go ahead to the next Ashes at home? Could you see yourself? Would you like to lead England? I'd let me get some retribution for this?

Yeah, definitely. You know, obviously I'm contracted with England until the end of the 2027 season. So, yeah, obviously there's a lot to happen from now until then. But yeah, look, that's the long-term plan. And at the moment, you know, don't think any otherwise. No. And do you view you and Brendan as being a team? Yeah, certainly we've worked together for a long time now.

We've both thoroughly enjoyed the relationship that we've managed to build and create over that time. And, you know, obviously there's been some, you know, difficult moments over the last sort of, you know, 18 months and all that kind of stuff. And look, we started off on this journey in very, very good fashion. And, you know, it's quite obvious to look back over the last certain while that things haven't gone. the way that we will have liked them to so look after after the series is done after this game is done there's obviously a long time to you know to go away think you know share thoughts around what we feel like we need to do to to get the trend going back in the way that we wanted to and believe that we can do

as well yeah was there a point where you felt if you look back in hindsight where you feel that actually perhaps that was like a checkpoint if you like what do Well, in terms of, I don't know, the team ethos or the way that you play, or the preparation, whatever it may be, is there a point that you think looking back where you might have started to do things differently? I think hindsight to me is, you know, something that's just such a strange one to look into and too much detail, I think, you know, it's, you know, what's happened has happened. You can't go back and change that, but when you lose a series in the first. first three games, you obviously, your mind does go back to it and go, could we done things a little bit differently to give us a slightly better chance of getting into the series better or whatever it may be. But I will always stay firm to that whatever you do in the build-up

to anything, the most important thing that really matters and what counts is what you do out there on the field. And, you know, that's where the The skill and the mentality of everyone, you know, should be at its, you know, peak or most important period. You know, there's no doubt whatsoever that every opportunity we got in the build-up to the series that we trained incredibly hard. And we weren't able to deliver what we needed to do, you know, out there in the middle, which is, you know, where the big stage is for us as players. And that's obviously disappointing. So, look, all the time for reflection isn't right now. You know, that time will come when, you know, the dust has settled on this series.

And as I said, we've got a long time before we have to think about going into our next test series, but we'll be using that time very, very wisely. And they're amazing scenes at Melbourne, weren't they? I mean, at the end, you know, the crowd and the atmosphere and so on. I mean, I guess your players are really quite moved by that. Yeah, look, it was, we're very fortunate that we get to play in some pretty iconic test matches as England cricketers. You know, boxing day tests, New Year's tests that we're about to start here as well. And obviously when we get to tour South Africa, we get to do the same as well.

But yeah, that was a special one for us. Obviously, it's been a long time since an England team have managed to come here and get on the right side of a victory. And, yeah, I think the fans were just as happy as us as well when we managed to knock those runs off there at the end of Melbourne. We've had phenomenal support all the way throughout this tour, even when things haven't been going well. So, yeah, to see the fans that we had come out here, the Barmy Army, who just overtook Bay 13, you know, seeing the pride and, you know, the joy that they had. You know, it was great to be able to share that with them at the end of the game.

Yeah, and last thought. I mean, will you be using that as part of your team build-up, the preparation? Are you going to speak to the team any differently than you have done as a result of what happened in Melbourne? No, look, I sort of try and let the moment come to me in terms of what I do say and making sure that the moment is right. I haven't said too much to the team as of yet

because we'll probably wait, probably until tomorrow morning to do that, but we all know how important how big this game is for us and although we've not won the ashes and that's what we wanted to do. You know, winning a game for England as, you know, just as a disappointment as any opposition that you play against.

Well, that was Ben Stokes talking to, I guess. I've got to say, coming here to Sydney, it feels an awful lot better to come here to Sydney, as Stokes was saying, on the back of a win, Jonathan, and knowing that it can't be a whitewash and we're not going to have to put up with Glenn McGrath sitting here for the next few days. in the test match

which celebrates his charity looking at 5-0 but you know let's just think about that to start with because that a little bit of momentum that Stefan says that little bit of positivity that's got to be a good thing absolutely and that's why I asked him about

the memories that they had at the end because the crowd of the atmosphere was incredible and to come to Australia and to win a match and it sounds a bit sad but it hasn't obviously happened for a long long time and that does feel as if those players now know what it feels like They've done it.

They've kind of broken that duck. And so that is good news. I was interested in, he was very firm about carrying on, which I think is good for English cricket, actually. I mean, there might be other, there could be other changes, who knows. But I think it's really important that Ben Stokes remains motivated to be England's captain until that Ash is serious. I don't see anybody else who could possibly do it.

And that's not a reason for saying that Stokes has to do it, but it simply says he's comfortably the best man for the job. And so, I mean, he absolutely needs to remain. What happens with McCullum and Key? Well, McCullum was already, and in fact, they both have owned up, if you like, that's the right way of putting it, to having got preparation wrong. Whether Brendan might regret having said that after Adelaide, with two tests still to play, I'm not sure, because it'll always be remembered as you may have said that now, and having taken responsibility for 3-0. But that is a fact. And you do feel that even if they do win here,

you know, to lose 3-0, as they did, was a massive disappointment. And they should not have happened. For me, personally, I think there should have been a stronger man as director of cricket to say to McCullough and Stokes were very much a partnership. Sorry, that's not good enough. That's not going to work. Let's just have a quick look at this and get a couple of games in at the start.

But that didn't happen. And that, for me, is Rob Keyesfold. He should have been strong enough or minded enough. to have said, sorry, that's not right. And I think, therefore, he is to blame largely for that. I mean, Ben Stokes was not going to talk about hindsight, was he? He's not a fan of... You learn from hindsight.

I don't accept that. No, I don't accept that. No, absolutely. You know, he raised it, really, and I say, well, where was the point in which you realize that things have gone a bit out of hand or weren't right? Oh, well, you know, look at hindsight. Well, actually, you do, because you have to learn, what is there any way you learn about anything?

and I make the point and I've said it several times on this tour that the comments are being made by the media by all of us about preparation is not in hindsight we were saying it in August and that's what's been so disappointing about all of this those who are you know who have

English cricket in their hearts like we all do we all English to do well but all saying this is not good enough but the people that matter didn't listen and therefore they are three all culpable but for me particularly it's the boss Just on that though

So before Melbourne Rob Key said he wasn't willing To write off that white ball tour of New Zealand That was the reason why they couldn't play more games Is that what they should have done Well in my view yes I mean not write it off but Focused more on that being

A development tour perhaps I mean I know these days Results matter world cut points matter I get all of that But look at the way we're talking about the ashes There's nothing more important than the ashes is there so no I think that they

look he could have still have taken people like Jacob Bethel I don't think Harry Brooks should have gone on that tour the fast bowlers didn't go I think you could have handpicked you could have handpicked a team to have gone there like they did with the T20s in Ireland that was a different set up

Bethel was captain for me I mean I don't know if that was a priority for the for the World Cup or quite how that worked out And the problem with a lot of this is we're not going to know the truth because people are covering their backs. The chief executive over the time of Cricket Australia has gone.

A decent fellow called Mike Hockley, we know very well. He would have been in golden negotiations leading up to it. Could they not have played? I didn't quite understand the logic of not playing a warm-up game against Australia, maybe at the MCG. That's en route from New Zealand. Yeah, I think they said it's just too close to the end of that tour. But the reason I raised that point about not writing off the New Zealand tour is because it's entwined with Ben Stokes' future as England captain.

And one of the thoughts I've had about Stokes on this tour is he has carried the burden of a lot that's gone on around this team quite visibly. We saw that in Melbourne, certainly, in the aftermath of the Ben Duckett video and all those sorts of things. And I don't know, do you remember his reaction to dismissals in Adelaide and Brisbane? when he sort of shouted to the skies. Absolutely. It's a heartbroken. Yeah. You know,

but I think it revels in that, you see. I've got, but with the white ball team, the big change now is that Brenda McCollum coaches both teams. And when Stokes spoke to the writers yesterday, he said, well, when we're looking forward,

I've got to go and get my head together with Brendan McCullum to plot the future of this test team. Well, that won't be for a little while. He won't see him because Brendan McCollum's going to concentrate on the whiteball team. And I think it's great that Stokes wants to carry on as captain because actually if you think everything that he's been through on this tour no one would have blamed him if at one

point he closed his hotel room door and gone do you know what I don't need this anymore I'm carrying this and I've looked at the players around him I just thought there's been a time when he's sort of a lion leading lambs there is so many players in this England team that have wilted on the biggest

stage players that England have backed there's a lot of leaders that they've lost over the past couple of years Harry Brook as vice captain still hasn't sort of grown into the role. And I think this is all balled up in the burden on Ben Stokes of, can he get a bit of help from the rest of his players in terms of leadership, performances, and the backroom staff of, say, Brendan McCullum, whose attention is now divided.

Because he's a very proud Englishman, you know, and he talks all the time about the pride of playing a test match for England. He mentioned it umpteen times, didn't he in the press conference just now, Stefan. But the other thing is that, you know, if he gives up, who is there? well there isn't anybody but again that's not the reason for having to stick to what you've got but I just don't see anybody

who could possibly come in and Captain England and you know Stefan's talking about the players that have wilted here I just don't think that the mindset the mantra and the way that Stokes and McCullum have run things

has been good for a number of players I don't think it's been good for Raleigh Pope I definitely don't think it's been good for Harry Brooke I don't think it's been good for Jamie Smith I'm not sure it's been good for Gus Atkins and you can kind of go through players is those who need a bit of an arm around their shoulders, that sort of approach,

rather than the running to danger approach, that nonsense that we've heard, and going out there and having to be on the attack all the time. And I just think that they really need, if they are to continue, and McCullough is to continue, part of what he has to learn about this job, but he has to be more empathetic,

and more empathetic with the players who actually need that different kind of approach, are the one that worked for him and Stokes when they were both players. I'm not absolving, Stokes and Blame, by the way, on that atmosphere because a lot of the players, or almost all the players actually are in this England squad, this type of environment is all they know of test cricket.

So the likes of Stuart Broad, James Anderson, Chris Wokes, Moines Alley, Johnny Bearstow, Olly Robinson, Jack Leach, who have all been, you know, retired, moved on from, injured or whatever, those characters were around the England team two years ago, that period of time when Ben Stokes earlier on talked about, well, that's when it started to go wrong when they moved on from those players a little bit. And there were more leaders in the team. I think there was probably more characters who were willing to challenge the environment, whereas a lot of these guys who have come in, this is what they know, you know, not having preparation, doing certain things off the field.

That is what they think test cricket is. So England have certainly created an environment that could be tightened up. I think the point that we're making here is that whoever changes, be it Rob Key, Brendan McCullum, no one. Ben Stokes will remain and he should remain because he's the best person, the best captain that England could have right now. But in terms of that responsibility, that weight on his shoulders, that has surely got to be shared around a little bit better because he can't do it. On this tour alone, I've heard him talked about as a number three and opening the bowling. If we're not careful, he's going to be driving the team bus. But also I think he has to,

look we're not part of the team but we know what Ben's like to interview you know it can be sometimes quite an intimidating business and you know so if you're a young player can you stand up to Ben's stoke I'm not sure you can I'd rather do it

differently please if you fall out with Brendan McCullin well he's now the white ball coach is the red ball coach he's everything what happened to Ollie Robinson that's kind of a bit of a mystery as well and I'll say that The disintegration of decent cricketers is something that I think if I were the new boss or if Rob Key remains, but I don't know, changes his approach to it.

These are the questions that need to be asked of this management group, I think. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Let's talk about what you. can improve then and what can be done because Stokes said what matters is what happens out on the field and they did win a test match a week ago so let's let's think about the positives from that so Jacob Bethel who we've just seen down practicing his slip fielding we learned nothing about Jacob Bethel at Melbourne apart from the fact he's got some character well yeah and he was able to stand up and well yeah I mean the way that he batted was it was a T20 innings quite rightly so that was the right way to play but I hope we see him in a situation here

under pressure, batting at number three in a test match innings. His field is brilliant, I must say, watching these catches here. But yes, he went out and he, you know, he's used to going out in that sort of environment and playing some shots. If he's going to bat number three for England, that might mean, as Ollie Pope found, throughout this series, he's in there at nought for one most of the time. You can't go out and bat like that in a test match. So I'm looking forward to seeing him play here.

I mean, I'm not doubting his ability at all, but I just want to see it. I want to see it for myself. I want to see him play. Otherwise, I mean, they're going to be a bowler down in Atkinson, which is a shame. I think he's actually, when he bowled in this series, I think he bowled nicely. But more than that, you know, it's that question of having won a game. They now know that Australia are beatable. It's worth reminding people they haven't actually played Australia's first team yet.

And they're not going to be in this game either. which also adds to the overall frustration of it but there is no reason at all why England should not win this test match. If you think about how England move on and do target the next 18 months of test cricket well think about the last time they targeted an Ashes series and that was following the India series in 2024

they came back for the home summer Jimmy Anderson got the tap on the shoulder Johnny Beresto was moved on Ben Fox was moved on Jack Leach was moved on now we've got a long period between test matches for England that is a lot of thinking time

for Ben Stokes and Brendan McCullum to do if they are the men in charge come the test match in New Zealand in June and for that reason there might be gaps in the team or people who need a performance here just to make sure they're on that team sheet in six months time

they will continue to back Crawley and Duckett as the opening pair I'm sure they will Bethel is the man who's got first crack at nailing down the number three slot but he's off to the IPL in the springtime. What about Jamie Smith? He's not had a great series here at all,

and he's been dropped from the Whiteball team. If I was him, that'll be a little alarm ball ringing. He's out of one McCullum team. Is he going to stay in another? England's first choice spinner, who's that? And then also, the seam bowling attack. Well, think who England have lost in the past number of years. Anderson, Broad, Wokes, Wood, and Joffa Archer is injured.

And realistically, I don't think we'll see Mark Wood play in another test match. and Joffa Archer playing two-thirds of England's test matches is probably a decent aim, really. The rest of them, well, it's all very inexperienced, even though they have been around for a couple of years. You know, Atkinson, Kars, Tongue, Potts. And then we might be looking around then of others, Sonny Baker, Tom Laws, Eddie Jack, Matthew Fisher, as in this squad. So there is a rebuilding of an attack to go on there. And so for this week, there is a claim, I guess, or an opportunity to be the leader of that bowling attack when it comes up. Someone like Josh Tong is probably England's breakout star of this series, and he deserves the opportunity to have a permanent space there.

But certainly in terms of pace bowling, England have lost the best part of, I don't know, 2,000 test wickets over the past two years. That is going to be, I think, a significant rebuild over the next 18 months. By the way, just search ashes on BBC Sounds to find all of our content, including commentaries, podcasts and features from our time out here in Australia. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. The Dakar Rally is the ultimate off-road challenge. Perfect for the ultimate defender. The high-performance defender, Octa, 626 horsepower twin turbo V8 engine and intelligent 6D dynamics air suspension.

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Watch on YouTube, listen on BBC Sounds. Let's switch focus to the Aussies then there, Captain Steve Smith. Spoke to the ABC's Ben Cameron. Steve Smith, thanks for joining us. I know you spoke about it a little bit at your press conference, but Usman Kowager, the big story of yesterday announcing his retirement. You've played a lot of cricket with him. How will you remember him?

Yeah, I've played with him for a very long time. I was part of his debut game here, 15 years ago. So, you know, I've seen him grow and evolve over the years. You know, he's had such a valuable contribution to Australian cricket. You know, the way he's been able to evolve over the years and, you know, play the way he has. It's been outstanding to play 88 test matches. He's an incredible feed. And, yeah, he'll be missed around the Australian dressing room. A lot has been said about the SCJ pitch. You played in a shield match here at the start of the season. We did see Nathan Lyne and Todd Murphy ironically play in that game. What did you learn from that as to what we might get here in this match? Yeah, I think it was a decent wicket for the first, probably day and a half and then started to break up quite a bit in terms of the cracks. There wasn't a great deal of spin for the

match, but cracks came into play pretty early. So yeah, it got tricky to bat. It was a bit up and down and a lot up and down and hard to play so whether that's the same out here i'm not sure we haven't had the chance to look at the wicket today so get that look and then figure out how we want to go about it what do you want this SCG pitch it's your home ground obviously to look like to to play like moving forward i've said it for years in an ideal world playing two spinners flat for two days crack start to come in It's abrasive, footmarks, reverse swing, all the above. We've sort of said that for the last, I feel like 15 years

and probably haven't got one of those wickets, so I'm not sure we'll get there, but that would be my ideal wicket here at the SCG. I used to love watching games when, you know, Warren and McGillard line up and, you know, the games would speed up at the back end with spin playing a big part and guys bowled stump to stump, people in front of the wicket, no slips in place and things, like that. That would be my ideal SCG wicket but I don't know if we're going to see that.

We all were at the MCG and we saw the now infamous 10 millimetres of grass on the wicket and a two-day test match. We understand how the pitch played but was there anything that the group and in particular that the batting group reflected on in the wake of that test match and thought that's an RFI with the way we went about it? Yeah, we probably could have gone harder. You know, I think those wickets where the game shrunk down, you know, there's balls that are bowled there that are just going to get you out and they've got your name on it. So, you know, the leading run scorer is for the game. Harry Brooke was playing outrageous shots, running down at bowlers, lapping, things like that.

And he was the leading run scorer. Travis Head for us probably played the most aggressive. So it's hard to do in the moment. You know, you want to knuckle down and try and. do your job, I suppose, but sometimes you've got to think on your feet maybe and be a little more aggressive perhaps. It's a tricky one, but, you know, after the game, I think I said it in the presser. That's what we could have done maybe to get that 60-odd runs more, probably that would have potentially changed a result. Well, that was Steve Smith, who leads the team into the

final game of the series for Australia in a series. Stefan, actually, which has been pretty turbulent for them. When you think of the changes, you think of everything that's gone on. We're going to see Usman Kowager playing his last game on the ground where four years ago he got centuries in each innings. But yeah, there is a sense, isn't it, that they've got away with it a bit Australia here. Well, in the spirit of it shows what I know about cricket, I think I wrote at the start of this series, the outcome of the ashes might be determined by which captain spends most time on the field and here we've got Ben Stokes

getting through a full five test series for the first time in two years the beaten captain, Pat Cummins has played once and his involvement in Sydney will be to turn up here at the end of the game and lift the urn with Steve Smith. You're right about the turbulence around that Australian team

and that tells you two things that one, England have wasted a huge opportunity but secondly an Australian team that was billed as sort of ageing, creaking over the while actually they are battle-hardened grown-ups who have been grizzled and ready for the fight and their consistency hard-nosed test cricket has exposed England's looseness and their lack of preparedness for this series and you know someone like Michael Nisa

would he get picked by England would he get into this England team and and those I don't know old school values have won the day. I'll tell you where it stems from and he'll be my man of the series, Andrew McDonnell, who I think's been absolutely brilliant as the coach. He's had to manage the second team, third team at times. He's worked out a plan. He knew exactly how they should bowl at England's bats when that came off absolutely from the start. He's an unassuming fellow.

I've known him a few years now and he's just been plotting and scheming away. And I think he's been brilliant at the way he's got this. say this second 11, really, into this position of having one of the ashes 3-0. Reminds me a bit of Trevor Bayliss, actually, the way that he managed England. Quite unassuming, yeah, but he likes his planning.

I walk back with him from the ground at Adelaide, actually. Good man of Leicester, isn't he? Good man of Leicester, good man of Essendon and Melbourne as well where he used to play. So, yeah, a few connections. But he's a good man. No coincidence, they had their Ron Ball T-shirts on at Adelaide. There's a sort of tribute really. So because he's known as well.

Ronald. Yeah, Ronald. Yeah, so the job that he has done. Coadja, interesting, I mean, had Steve Smith not been ill at Adelaide, his career would have finished quietly, presumably buried at Adelaide, and he wouldn't have had the farewell. We see a few farewells here, and so it's rather emotional when an Australian cricketer comes out and says goodbye. His press conference yesterday is rather sad if he's had to endure that sort of background

to his career, because he's been a real, sort of ground-breaking cricketer for Australia, the first Muslim to play for Australia that's that's quite a big deal here and it's it's sad if he's there have been issues that have gone along with that but anyway he's got his chance tomorrow he'll come out and it's a chance that he probably thought

he wouldn't get the day before Adelaide so good luck to him in terms of that Australia team as well and I'm taking absolutely nothing away from Australia because they have comfortably been the better team in this series if you went through that Australia squad, and you just say, who has actually maybe performed above what we would have expected or hit their heights? I think you've probably just centre on. Travis Head, Alex Carey and

Mitchell Stark. The rest have been okay. They've done their job when they needed to. Steve Smith's only made one half century. Nathan Lyon, bit part in the series. Pat Cummins, bit part in the series. Josh Hazelwood, not seen at all. Cameron Green, really disappointing the most expensive overseas signing in the history of the IPL. So, yeah, again, tells you two things. England have missed an opportunity, but good teams win when they're not at their best. Australia have done that. And this group of players will now firmly have their site set on 2027 in England and

doing that thing. An Australian team has not done for a very long time. So a series of missed opportunities, as you say, Steph, thank you both very much indeed. We have got another test match to play, though, before we all jump on the plane. and come home and we will be bringing you every single ball here on five sports extra and on BBC Sounds as well. That is it for this episode of the TMS podcast. Make sure you're subscribed so you get notified

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