Test Match Special - 'Stokes will return as captain' - McCullum

Episode Date: June 21, 2026

Jonathan Agnew is alongside former England captains Michael Vaughan and Sir Alastair Cook, as well as former New Zealand captain Jeremy Coney at The Oval for reaction to England's defeat to New Zealand, which levels the series 1-1.Hear from Brendon McCullum and Joe Root after a choatic two weeks for England, plus New Zealand captain Tom Latham and Matt Henry who took 11 wickets in the match.

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Matt Henry took six for 29 to bowl England out and level the series. Well, I'm alongside Michael Vaughan, Sir Aleister Cook and Jeremy Coney. It will start by chatting with Joe Root. Well, Joe, first of all, congratulations on your 14,000 runs. That's a wonderful milestone. Thanks. Yeah, it's just disappointing that we find ourselves on the wrong side of the result. But that's...

Yeah, that's how it sits, really. Unfortunately... You won't out to spoil your achievement, though, surely. Not the 14,000. That's a career. Yeah, but they're never really your runs either. You're scoring them for a purpose, right? You're trying to win games of cricket. from that perspective, slightly disappointing, but clearly it's come from a lot of hard work over a long time.

Yeah, it has. And well played. Okay, so this match, how did you look back at this? I mean, it's been a pretty crazy 10 days, really. It has. And there has been, without sounding too, sorry, to sort of cliche, there has been a lot of good things in between some pretty ordinary stuff as well. when you miss eight to ten chances in the field against a good team on a reasonable good wicket you're going to be playing catch up for a long part of it and you know we've got four force changes coming into the game it's it's going to be slightly unsettling in some areas but that being said

the guys that came in they gave absolutely everything they did some really good stuff and i think we just got to make sure we're good enough to do it for longer periods of time got to make sure we're really engaged in the field and and ready to take those opportunities want to make things happen. But, you know, those guys are first exposure to test cricket, the guys in particular right at the front of their career, I think they've done some good things and hopefully it can take a lot from it moving forward

into the rest of their careers. Yeah, it'll do them good to have at least played. Yeah, and the team as well, in terms of having depth and giving them that exposure. I think normally when guys come into the team, it's normally one at a time, and they're helped through from seniority and guys around them. This week's been quite different

with the circumstances in which things have been from folded and happened and you know after the back of that the guys I think gave a really good case for themselves really that that's all you can really ask of of players is to come and give everything and they definitely did that but you also got to give credit to New Zealand I think the way that Phillips played in particular the night of day was day one wasn't it right and that spell that spell from Joffre you know we we wanted to make that take that wicket that night off run a role, full of confidence, bowling with great pace. You break the game open there and

it's a very different concept. You come back the next morning with the tail to bowl at. And credit to him, I thought he played brilliantly. Same with Nichols in the second innings. Our batterers have got to learn. I think it's an opportunity for our batting group to learn from that. It's reading those situations the way they play those different moments and recognizing the tempo of test cricket can change. And I think that's where our evolution. has got to come, you know, further down the line is can we recognise moments in games like that, sometimes play within ourselves or just manage the situation really well and reap the rewards off it later down the line. I've been cut short here, Joe, so I'm going to have to ask you what about the last week and what has been like.

Behind the scenes really, I mean, no one's really known what's been going on. What's it been like for you to have had to step into the captain at such short notice? You know, I've really enjoyed this week. I know the result's not been great and not what we set out to do, but I've thoroughly enjoyed working. with Baz and stepping back into that space, getting an opportunity to work with some young players, some new players, and being a part of what's a very special week for a couple of debutante's as well.

So as I say, it's disappointing to be on the end as a result that we have, but it's been a lot of fun and we're still very much a lot to play for in this series, 1-1, and a lot can happen in the next couple of days. So we'll see where we land when we get to Trent Bridge. Well pleasure, thank you, thank you to us, appreciate it. Okay, we're a bit cut short there because presentation,

and so on taking place but so I'd like to dug a little bit deeper into Joe Ashley he was he was being pretty positive about about about the younger players and so on I mean he spoke you know like a like a spokesman I suppose possibly with the relief he probably hasn't gonna do it anymore Michael well let's wait and let me see what happens but I he's got to speak those kind of words I mean young team five changes three debitschance wasn't gonna be easy but the one thing I'll say is that, you know, you go back to Australia in the winter. Australia had a lot of kind of two in and thrown with selection.

They managed to cope. New Zealand this week lost arguably their greatest player in Kane Williamson. Henry Nichols steps up and gets 100. You know, the way that England select their teams in recent times, you know, they throw in people and players that don't have the foundation of their game and knowledge because they haven't played a great deal of cricket. So they go on the hunt. I was talking about it pre-show.

So, you know, they talk about players ceiling, high ceilings, and I get that. But, you know, I always think that you've got to get players to a level first, a bit closer to that ceiling. And, you know, one or two this week shows some promise. I like the look of Jordan Cox. Yeah. I don't think you've seen the best of James Ruhrie at all behind the stumps. But I've seen enough of his batting to suggest that he could come again as a batter. Sonny Baker, obviously, a young quick bowler.

where he lands he needs to get a bit closer to the crease to give himself an extra yard. That's something that he can iron out. But, you know, when we have a bit of chaos in English cricket, which we have, it never surprises me when we see a performance like that. Yeah, and it's kind of, I suppose, Alaston, the likely way that the week would end. If there's lots of distractions going off, it'll even come out, you can talk a, you can talk a sensible, calm game, can't you? But, you know, the stuff has been happening these last 10 days,

especially involving the captain of the team. Absolutely. Chaos off the pitch. Normally translates to chaos on the pitch. The side they picked, am I surprised here? I said in my column actually in the paper, it's like, sides take wild, and players takes wild to be built. You know, James Anderson, I keep going back,

it wasn't the finished article when he first played. And you learn so much before you become, you know, a great player or a player who's doing all the conditions. You're looking at sides. You want side of 40, 50 caps. You know, seven or eight of those members of the side to have 30, 40, 50 caps at least. And then you think, yeah, that's a good, solid side. We've played a lot of conditions, gone through the ups and downs themselves.

And the side's gone through the ups and downs as a group. And then, you know, then you get some really consistent results. So a bowling attack of, you know, one, two, 19 caps, I think is the highest. Joe Root, the leading wicket, take it. It makes no surprise that they haven't performed brilliantly this one. brilliant this week and we keep talking about the bowlers but fundamentally this England side haven't scored enough runs for quite a long period of time consistently they don't bat long enough for test match cricket back at the

beginning of Basball where they scored at five runs and over and they try to change for it change a little bit batting that short period work for the little bit but that was we knew it's only ever going to be a short period time that works before people work them out and they've spoken about that so 290 in the first innings wasn't enough on a really on a really good back with you're forever paying catch up. You talk more about the bowlers for some reason in that situation but you're kind of paying the price for the not scoring enough runs because it's such a cumulative effect. I am going to get to speak with Brendan McCullum. I don't know when, but he is on

the list that they're going to have. I can't see him at the moment, but perhaps up there in the dressing room. So I can see Jeremy Coney though. I can see Matt Henry coming as well, which is even more exciting than actually seeing you Jeremy so I'll come back to you back to you in a minute well Matt Henry got a very nice magna they well bold what a what a performance that is best ever by New Zealand draw against England oh thanks very much yeah no it's just great to obviously get the job done today we've got a quick turnaround so yeah just great to obviously get the win first and foremost and probably for a few of the big boys not to start their engine today it was pretty key yeah absolutely have you

done much of that bowling with the with the keeper up or is it just something that you've looked at Brooke and root and thought well that's a that's an interesting tactic we'll try. We tried to, it was a couple times when England came back at the basin. It would have been two or three years ago maybe. We knew that Tommy was keen as well. It was bouncing all over the show and he was absolutely loving it, but it was just a ploy we took there. Me and Tim were talking about maybe just trying to get guys caught in their crease to stay a run. So we've kind of had it in the back of the mind probably since then. And then when we got out here, it was just trying to be effective, right? And I think we found pretty quickly with probably not as much bounce. It's

like, well, how do you keep the stumps in play and stop breaking their rhythm up, I think. We're applying different tactics from both ends, which allowed us to probably just break a little bit of rhythm and stem the flow runs. And, yeah, thankfully, wickets fell. Yeah, well, not thankfully, but beautifully, beautifully. You lose Kane Williamson, two other stand up with score hundreds. I mean, that's kind of, there's a lot about New Zealand cricket in that somehow. You just relish that sort of challenge. Yeah, I mean, I'm just, well, obviously, you lose something like Kane, one of our greatest ever players.

at school is going to leave a hole in his leadership and his presence in the shed as well. But like you said, we have someone experienced like Henry Nicol who's just been phenomenal for a number of years, even throughout his test career as well. It's just great to have him on the side and I think he showed it not just with his runs, but even the first innings, the way he blunted the new ball and allowed things to unfold for that middle order. We know how dangerous that new ball is with Joff in their attack. So probably don't get the rewards for the first innings, but definitely made up for

in the second which is great yeah a bit of chaos amongst the opposition have you if you've been aware of that you kind of cashed in on it do you think oh don't we're talking about i haven't heard anything behave no so i mean it's quite a bit of uncertainty i mean you expect to see ben stokes at trambridge oh look that's not really um probably our focus at all but uh it didn't change the way prepared because i suppose a lot of sort of played county cricket as well and i've played with ruy is an unbelievable play and a great talent so it was definitely not taken lightly the guys that came in Fisher as well. They've been so strong in the county game

and England have a lot of depth as well. So for us it was more just staying on task and what we can do and how do we become a threat on this wicket and especially with the ball and the bat is it was nice for them probably to get some runs after what happened last week. Well it's a terrific performance Matt. Thank you and yeah, look forward to seeing you at Trambridge.

Cheers, bye, thank you. Matt Henry, 11 wickets in the game. Finish things off very quickly today. Bowled absolutely beautifully and nice to see him, away him being quite diplomatic as well as far as the pressure of it was concerned but he was a bowler isn't he I mean he sort of just really sort of you know cut his cloth there if you like to be really effective well you're on going back to the point I made just before he spoke when we first saw Matt Henry I think it might have been

2015 yeah bowled a lot quicker you know trying to knock your head off trying to swing actually you didn't I think he did get me out I think he might be I might be in his first test wicket but I don't know I something's telling me it is but maybe his first wicket in England, but a very different bowler to it now. He's learned his game. He's learned test cricket. He's learned. He probably has dropped his pace a little bit and became a far better bowler. That is the progression you see. And he was brilliant. He was an absolute standout performer in the game.

And at the key moment, those brook and root in the first inning is when 170 for three. He comes in, new plan, keep her up, executed brilliantly. He's superb. He's 11 wickets on a, and not a, you know, by no, means a feather bed but you still say that pitch was better for batting than it was bowling so to get his figures extraordinary yeah and do Joe Root and Harry Brooke have this issue about the keeper standing up I mean something they've got to go away and think about I'm just seeing Brennan McCorme coming down the stairs actually so it might be that we that we'll get him in a second but do they have a problem they've got to work

at it I would say Harry Brooke has has not an issue I'd say the Bokes did average is 55 we've got and and still scored a 50 but it's certainly an area we'll see player sides go for, I think is it three times or twice he's been out of the keeper standing out and they've done it a fair bit in other times. So Joe Roo, he will find the solution to it. Here comes Baz. Okay.

You're a sweltering, we've got the umbrella up here and I'm afraid it's for my bald head, my bald head, Brendan, more than anything else. But well, that was quite a performance, isn't it? I mean, by New Zealand, they fought back very strongly. Very strongly I thought they were outstanding in all aspects of the game. Obviously we weren't at our best and you know when you're not at your best when you drop ten catches you're always going to be behind the April against good news the island side.

I thought they executed their plans brilliantly they were relentless on the links that they need to hit on the surface which I thought was a very good cricket surface as well and they put us under a lot of pressure and in the end we sit here one-one but we've got some optimism about what we can do next week. I mean, so little experience in your side. How, in your mind, are the debitants particularly fair? I guess five-hour guys have played two test matches between them, so you know there's a risk when you come into a test, but circumstances demanded it. In the end, we head it into the game with confidence and calmness,

and I felt that we're ready for what was going to be thrown at us. Sometimes you've got to acknowledge that there is a step up from where we've been to this level and it's not necessarily batting, bowling and fielding in terms of the skills itself, it's dealing with everything around international cricket. Are you able to sort of understand the nuances of the game? Are you able to pick up on what's required on a certain surface

and adapt? And I think when you put under the pressure that you are at international level, sometimes that can just have an effect on guys' ability to execute. Overall, they'll be better for the run, those guys. and we made no excuse. We came here still confident that we're going to be able to put in performance, but we're outplayed.

Well, here we are two weeks after Lords, Brendan. Are you able to shed some light on what has happened since then? Here we are standing here now. What's happened? Lots. Lots happened. Can you shed some light on it? Yeah, well, obviously we've had,

we had a really good performance at Lords, and I thought we showed some real progress from where we were six months ago and what we were trying to achieve. and then we had a blip off the field which has been an unwelcome distraction for all involved and we've had to obviously pivot somewhat around the team that we're putting out there and in the end we've we haven't been able to play the type of cricket we wanted but look we're hopeful that we're working through that process and we'll get to a stage that when we arrive at Trentbridge

we'll be able to pick from the full squad and we'll be able to go about putting out a better performance than what we have in this test match. The blip off the field, is that down to a misunderstanding? Do you think as things have moved on over the last fortnight or is there still an issue there? Look, I think everyone acknowledges that that was an ideal. What's on fault it wasn't ideal. It would have been great. Fleeting into this test match, we were talking about the performance at Lords,

but unfortunately that wasn't the case. And I will say that the guys, they did their absolute best to try and block all that out and just focus on trying to get the job done. and it would have been great to have been able to be successful this week, but we weren't able to be, but I don't necessarily think it was because of those distractions. It was just we ran into a very good New Zealand side. Stokes and Atkinson have been taken out of their county game,

so presumably that means that they're going to be playing at Trent Bridge. Look, we're anticipating that they'll be available for selection. We'll get the squad out later on, but it's a quick turnaround to the next one, and obviously you've got those decisions and discussions to have, but I would anticipate that they'll be in that squad, yes. and has been back as captain again? Yeah, I'd assume so, yeah. Yeah, that's what we're looking at at the moment.

Look, it is what it is, right? We've dealt with it, or the process is underway. And once we get to Trent Bridge, our focus will be on making sure that we're able to get a collective unit together and make sure we drill down on our tactics and we execute better than what we have in this test match. Yeah, and I suppose collective is the word, is it? I mean, are you and Ben and Rob Key able to kind of come back together

and work together after all of this? Yeah, I think so. I've been speaking to Ben every day since obviously the incident unfolded and I know Keyes has been up to them this week as well. You know, you're just trying to make sure that you're very communicative right throughout. We've all got the same ambition, which is to make English cricket a very good team and to try and achieve results on the field. And that hasn't changed. And it all started as a reset this series, isn't it? I mean, do you feel that you're kind of doing a, you're resetting the reset when we get to Tramp Bridge? You've always got to navigate through certain things

and this is just another example and we'll let this one land a little bit and then we'll start to plot and plan our way towards Trent Bridge. We've got an opportunity to win a series against a very good New Zealand side and I think so far it's been an exciting test series

the game of Lords was very different this one here came down to how well you executed and how relentless you were and when we get to Trent Bridge we'll ask different questions of both teams. So it's all to play for and that's the exciting aspect. We'll start talking about cricket. Exactly. I hope I'll be asking you different

questions there too. Thanks for coming out, Brandon. We appreciate it. There we are. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. He's widely recognised as one of the greatest footballers in history. He's won the prestigious Ballandour Award five times. He's the all-time

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back, Ackerton's back and Ben Beck as captain and it was a blip. Right, yeah. I think there's more to come from that story. We don't know the fundamental event. everything that's gone on behind the scenes but there's been so many legs added to the story which has been difficult no doubt they would say that it's not affected the team but i would say it probably has over the course of four or five days it's bound to with a young and inexperienced team but new zealand we're outstanding the skippers there's a happy man look at that rather big smile well on tom well you must be absolutely thrilled with that yeah a fantastic performance all week um sort of spoke last week about us just trying to be a little bit better for longer and um you know i thought

fantastic well this week. I guess you look back, you know, post-match, you sort of see moments in games, and I thought we managed to, I guess, win those crucial moments and kind of just put our nose in front of the game. And yeah, I guess to be in the position we were yesterday, 460 or whatever it was, ahead.

And then I think the way we started with the ball was outstandingly well. And I guess when you got two world-class batsmen, number one and two in the world, yeah, I guess you always sort of sit on the edge a little bit, but I guess the way our guys are able to stick in there, again for long periods of time and managed to get the results was outstanding. Yeah and to come back from Lords, a bit of a horror story but you did park it,

you clearly did get rid of it and then a bit of a break in between to come back and play that level of cricket was really pleased you. Yeah and I think the biggest thing for us was just kind of trusting where we were and we obviously understand that conditions were probably at the extreme last week at Lord's and didn't necessarily reflect the way that we played so just kind of bringing it back to the things that we do well and you know for us it was a little bit of old school test cricket this week in terms of being able to do things for long periods of time, especially with the ball. You know, the wicket didn't necessarily offer heat from a pace point of view, but to be able to,

I guess, hone in on the off stump, you know, bring the stumps into play and sort of work out your modus dismissal and I thought the ball was executed fantastically well. Yeah, well you're a lucky man. You've got a great attack, haven't you? Yeah, yeah, we do. I think sort of kind of a well-balanced attack in terms of what we have with a little bit of height, you know, guys that can move the ball in the air off the wicket. So, you know, the guys have a very well-balanced. been really, really, I've done a great job the last couple of weeks. Yeah, it's important me to sort of rest up and we always know when we play England. There's always some great series ahead and, you know, this series is going to be no different. Yeah, well, it sounds you've got Ben Stokes back for a start.

So, I mean, I don't know if you've been following stuff off the field, have you or not? No, no, it's certainly been focused. I bet you have. No, no, focused on this week and, yeah, obviously, again, we'll, whatever happens, happens. Yeah, well, enjoy it, Tom. Thank you for talking to us. And many congratulations. Really good win.

One-1, we'll see you there. There we are. and he is a lucky captain to have an attack like that, isn't he? I mean, you two, both of you, to have that you can look, you know, unleash. It's fantastic. Well, I thought he always says that about his captain. See, when you speak to it, he said, what made you such a good captain? He said, the bowlers he had.

And in particular, when I was captain, the bowlers, I could call upon they win your games. That was a fantastically all-round. They've got a really rounded bowling attack. They can do lots of different options without a world-class spinner. but really their seam attack covers everything and they were they were impressive and you know Emilia Gay some that are really well than it I think on day one or day two when he said it was just like they keep coming at me they're relentless didn't know really where to go yes you played nice over 15 is it the difference

that was his difference between can cricket and test cricket the less you know less number of freebies and and they and they just in terms when you watch them they just keep on going they do know their job and then and that's but they probably take a game taking a while to get to that kind of point but yeah They're a good bowling attack. Come on then, Jeremy. You've seen lots of New Zealand cricket over the years. I wonder where that victory stands for you.

Well, it's a win. That's what we like. And it's the seventh one here in the UK, which is a long time. We've been coming here, Jonathan, 1927, our first tour. So a lot of good cricketers have come here and have gone back rather disappointed. So this lot haven't.

They've still got a job to do, but they've evened it up at this stage. with a good performance, I think, solid performance. They're here without Duffy, who's probably another component in the seam attack, and who can bowl long, resilient spells. So he's not here. So in that case, you'll add to these guys and say,

well done. I mean, Henry's pitch here today, he was able to bring the stumps in. He's got the guy standing up behind him, Blundle, they form a nice partnership together. people just seem uncomfortable to get forward. And he wasn't bowling extremely fast, but just nipped it. And of course, then the one that's straight comes into play,

and that caused the Brooke dismissal, didn't it? And he kicked it. It didn't come in. So it was, but even in the batting, it's a solid performance in the batting. 390, maybe gifted a few runs on the second morning, and they got away on England a bit. But partnerships right throughout.

If you look at 30s and 40s and 50s and then the 100 coming from Phillips, the 200s in the match come from New Zealand. So all those things are pointing to one side playing a little better than the other. Lots of character, not flashy. It's kind of typical New Zealand cricket really. It does. Absolutely it is.

It's do your job, do your job well. And when you sit down in the evening, enjoy your mates. It's very simple, but very basic, and it wins games. And people would have worried about, I suppose, missing Kane Williamson, but hey, two stars up. Well, Nichols did okay, didn't he? Yeah, absolutely. So that was good.

So no, they will feel a lot more confident going after a pretty tough test at Lords, I think, for all the players, both sides. They will now head off to Trent Bridge and they'll feel much more confident about it. We'll see you there, Jeremy. Thanks for your company over the last week, of course. There we go. We'll catch you there. A few more words maybe on where England go from here. then. Well, we haven't had official, well, actually we have had official confirmation,

aren't we really now? I think we can take that from McCollum that Stokes us back and he's going to be captain. I mean, they haven't actually put out the official team yet, but that looks to be the way that it's gone. Yeah, I mean, you know, this week's been a, you know, a tough week because of all the DNA experience, but if you look at the course of the Basma Cullum coaching era, England average 78.3 overs of batting in the first inning. So this week they batted for 84 so they're kind of doing what they've always done anyway whoever's in the side and for England to become a real high quality test match team you know it's not rocket science but they have to bat for longer in the first innings you know they have to earn

the right to bat for 110 150 others particularly on pitches like this not at lords laws was a different week the pitch was a difficult one but this this week here at the over it was a batting service what we batted in the second innings 58 overs in the second in the second in it's just not enough and I know there's a lot of inexperience but you know Henry Nichols, you'd argue, you can't tell me Henry Nichols, is any better than Jordan Koch, James Rue, Jacob Bethel, Emilio Gates, similar kind of players. And, you know, he found a way.

Obviously, his team were playing nicely around him. He's got more seniorities, so probably felt more comfortable in that set up. But, you know, England have to find a way under Baz McCullum, and now with Ben Stokes coming back, of batting for longer periods. The only way that they're going to put the opposing teams under pressure on better pitchers. You know, they've won two games of cricket in the last few, and ones have been at the MCG, which was a two-dayer, and the other one was at Lords, which was a similar

wicket to the MCG. Can they win on good pitches? That's going to be the challenge for this team. Questions of both of you, I mean, and that relationship between captain and coach, looking back at what has happened over this last couple of weeks or so, I mean, Brennan McCom talked about it as being a blip. And you can see by his, you know, in his face that you can't sort of hear. That is still going to rumble on a bit. Do you think cookie well yeah yes there seems to be something gone on behind the scenes between between them I you know that they are they were thick as thieves at the beginning of the reign the first two or three years and there's there's no

every chance they could defend each other or they did and yet not so much from Stokes actually on the so far on this one but from McCollum and Key they had two opportunities three opportunities to really back Ben Stokes and they haven't done it Keith said it feel like being smashed in the face. That's a big thing to come back from from your boss. Absolutely. Absolutely. So I mean there's, we're still two, Jeremy Coney just said to me,

why are we still talking about it? Why has it not been dealt with? Absolutely. And it's two weeks to the day pretty much. And we're still not none the wiser. And we've had a game here without our best team playing. And they've been, I think that you were judged on results. Like they were judged in results in Australia with their preparation.

They're judged on results on this week. And they weren't good enough. the site. So I don't know what the next couple days is, how it is, you know, they're telling us there's no friction, there's no friction between them, but do we take that at face value? It's just, I don't know. I generally don't know. I'm bored of speculation. Yeah, on it, to me honestly. But it's just crying out to be dealt with it, because here we are, one, one, terrific test series on the go, cricket up against the World Cup and goodness knows what else. And all that there's going to be, we know it's going to be leading up that first test is talking about Ben Stokes.

I mean, English cricket has pretty much been the rock bed of the partnership between the captain and the coach. You know, when English cricket has had good times, whether it's been in whiteboard cricket, O'I Morgan and Trevor Bayliss, test cricket, Andy Flower and Andrew Strauss, at the start of Bazball. You and Duncan. Yeah, Ben and Baz. You know, that togetherness, that singing from the same hymn sheet. Does it matter if you don't? Does it matter if there are different opinions or different characters? I've never been in a dress room where the captain and coach haven't got on and had success.

So I'll tell you that that combination needs to be a strong one. Clearly, they're going to have some work to do over the next few days. You know, as Alistair said, they had seven opportunities to back Ben Stokes in a press conference and they didn't do that. Whether that was messaging from above, whether that was coming from the CEO to say to these two, look, you're not backing in publicly. We don't know that. Again, it's speculation because it hasn't been dealt with.

We're still speculating. Did those two know the facts, as Ben Stokes would see the facts? I wonder when they made those comments about the curfew and so on. I mean, again, we're fishing a bit, but if there was a misunderstanding, as I said to McCollum there, perhaps they didn't know it at the time. Yeah, the curfew, chat. I mean, as McCollum was asked before,

a series about the curfew, does it still exist? And I'm pretty sure he said yes. But is it in writing? I know this attention to detail is really important. Did the players who weren't on tour in Sri Lanka know this? Well, this is, you know, in April when Richard Gould, Rob Key, sat in front of the media and presented all the slides, it was a resale.

It was a resale. You know, they had all sorts of kind of talk about what's going to happen over the course of the few years and it looked great. But ultimately, you have to abide by that attention to detail. And I'm staggered. The England cricket team in this era, under everything that's happened in the last year, if you come into an England side, surely you have a Code of Conduct book that you get given. So, Ollie, welcome back. By the way, there's our Code of Conno book. And guess what?

There's six non-negotiables. I don't know how many non-negotiables you can think of. but say the six non-negotiables. And by the way, the six ones been added in since Australia, curfew. It's written down in a book that you go and put in your cricket bag. It's called the England Cricket Code of Conduct what we expect from our leadership group.

Look, if they're not doing that in this area of high-level sport, I find that absolutely staggering. We shall find out, I suspect, over the next few days. Thanks to you two, because that won't be the last word on this, that's for sure. But we have moved on a bit today. We know that Ben Stokes is coming back. and that we had to winkle him out of Brendan a bit,

but that he is going to be captain at Trent Bridge. Right, I'm going to make it back towards the dressing. It's very, very hot out here. Andy Zaltzwin, you can escort me back with some stats. Well, yes, Agass. Three consecutive defeats for England at the Oval, now after losing to India dramatically last year by six runs. And to Sri Lanka in 2024,

and the second time they've lost three consecutive matches on this ground. and the other was in 1971, 72, 7 and 73. But I want to focus on Matt Henry with an absolutely prodigious performance, six for 29 in the second innings, following five for 80 in the first innings. And that's after he started with Nort for 44 in his first nine overs.

So for the rest of the match, he took 11 for 65. The rest of the bowlers in the match, put that in context, 28 wickets for 1067. So all the other bowlers average 38 per wicket, averaged fractionally under 10 runs per wicket. The best figures for New Zealand against England in their test history.

The best match figures for a pace bowler on this ground since Michael Holdings legendary match in 1976, 50 years ago and he took 14 for 149. The fourth best match figures for New Zealand by a Seamer behind Richard Hadley, Richard Hadley and Richard Hadley, who had three better matches. And we talked a lot about the company Henry is keeping statistically as a bowler in his 30s. He's now averaging 19.5 since turning 30, 115 wickets in 21 tests. Out of all the bowlers age 30 plus, who bowled 600 or more overs in test cricket, there are 76 of those.

That's the fourth best average behind Hadley, Jasbit Bumra and S.F. Barnes, who played for England before the First World War. but that comes down to whether you think of him as a spinner or a seamer. But that's the kind of elite statistical company he's keeping, just ahead of Malcolm Marshall, Imran Khan, Kirtley Ambrose, Alan Donald, Glenn McGrath, Fred Truman, those kind of legends of bowling. So it might have taken world cricket a while to realise

quite what an exceptional cricket of Matt Henry is. But I think that message is getting through now. 74 wickets in his last 12 tests at an average of 15.5. And again, looking at Seamus, who've taken that. that many wickets and 12 tests. The list recently, Mitchell Johnson, Dale Stain, Alan Donald, Wacker Eunice, Wazimakram, Curley Ambrose are the most recent one.

So truly elite statistical company that Henry is keeping and just his head to head with Root and Brooke in this match. Four, for 22 from 71 balls, the first bowler ever to get Root and Brooke out in both innings in the same test. Root and Brooke are third and first in the world. ranking respectively coming into this game also the first bowler ever to get Joe Root LBW twice in the same test just remorseless accuracy and a huge amount a huge amount of

craft and just just for you Agers the list of bowlers who've taken 70 or more wickets at an average under 16 in the history of test cricket seams and spinners Dale Stain Murillitherin Sean Pollock Richard Hadley Imran Khan Jim Laker Alec Alex Bedser SF Barnes George Lohman I know who's coming He Briggs. And here it comes, Agas. He's coming. Charles the Terror Turner. Well done. Finish on a positive note. Thank you, Russia, D. We're always trying to get the terror in somewhere.

The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Five Lights 4th. My favourite World Cup moment? It's the first World Cup I properly remember watching. Argentina 78. The ticker tape, Mario Kempes, Ari Hahn's scoring goals from miles out. And always one of my favourite World Cup moments. Archie Gemmell's great goal for Scotland against the Dutch. What makes the World Cup such a special tournament is the atmosphere, the colour,

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