Test Match Special - Surrey champions as County cricket future comes under spotlight.

Episode Date: September 23, 2022

Kevin Howells reports on Surrey winning the County Championship at a time of fierce debate about how future seasons may look. We get reactions from Rory Burns, Ollie Pope and Gareth Batty and analysis by journalist Dean Wilson. Plus we hear from Sir Andrew Strauss, Alec Stewart and Sussex chair Jon Filby on the high performance review which could change how the cricket summer looks from 2024.

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I'm Kevin Hulls and welcome to a special TMS podcast. We'll be reflecting on Surrey's championship victory sealed with a 10 wicket win over Yorkshire. But we'll also discuss the recommendations of the high performance review led by Sir Andrew Strauss, which could lead to major changes to how the cricket season looks in the future.

But first, let's celebrate Surrey's win and this is the moment the title was sealed with commentary from Mark Church. Tattersall's in. Is this it? Rory Burns pulls through the leg side. That is it. And it is the captain that hits the winning runs and he jumps into the arms of Ryan Patel and Surrey have won the county championship in 2022 and there is something rather appropriate that it's the captain Rory Burns that has pulled the ball through the leg side whistles away from. for four. It's a 10 wicket win for Surrey here at the Mickey Stewart Oval. All the crowd are on

their feet. And Surrey, the county champions for 2022. They won it in 2018. And as I say, there is something very, very appropriate that it's Rory Burns to hit the winning runs. The captain in 2018 the captain in 2022 and surrey beating yorkshire by ten wickets surrey have been incredibly solid throughout this season well dean wilson has kindly agreed to continue with this he's been part of the commentary team throughout the week dean from the mirror group of papers the cricket correspondent i mean not only this summer you've seen some pretty remarkable international cricket on that stage but but in you know from your perspective a little bit of context to the winning of the county championship for the game of cricket in this country at the moment yeah absolutely i think

some terrific scenes here at the oval and what it does say and what it kind of reminds me of is that the county championship really is the heartbeat of the english game no matter what your view on all the variety of form that's and and cricket that's out there to be played the county championship is the bedrock on which everything is built and it's where players learn their trade all these players playing for surrey all the players playing for england now have come through at some point the county championship i've learned their game in the county championship and it's the it's the test really of of the skills of the abilities that you have as a cricketer and then to be able to move on and and upwards in your career and playing all these other weird and

wonderful games around the world and international cricket as well. But this is the bedrock. This is where it's really the foundation, I should say, of your talent is determined. And, you know, there's some terrific players on show out there, you know, receiving the applause. When they won the title a few years ago, the fact that, you know, it was pretty much Surrey, born and bred with a little bit of the Surrey schools involved as well with maybe one or two players from South Africa coming across and being involved

but you know coming through the junior ranks if you like from whatever means looking out on that group it's it's pretty much the same again isn't it they can be proud of what they themselves have generated yeah generated and regenerated because you know they still need to produce

players to come in and take the places of those who go on to bigger and better things you know we touched on on Sam Karen away at the moment in Pakistan with England, you know, if he was available, if he was here, he'd be in this team right now. He got his first, first class century early this season. He's played his role already and so they do need to keep producing players to take the places of those, as I say,

who move on to bigger and better things. And you're right, Kevin. It's a formula that's worked incredibly successfully for Surrey, a 21st county title. so they know what they're doing. They've done it well for a number of years. This group of players, they're second in four years. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Well, let's get some reaction, shall we? Mark Church spoke with the Surrey Captain, Rory Burns.

Well, you're normally a man of few words, Rory Burns, but I would have thought you're a very, very happy captain tonight. Many congratulations second championship win for you. How does that feel to do it here as well? Just on a lap of honour. It must be a lovely, lovely moment. Yeah, a really special feeling. I was just saying there, you do it again.

You know, it's the second time and someone's like, is it a bit more special? I don't know if it's more special, but I think it's as special. And it's a real testament to the group of guys up there that we've got it done again. I've bored everybody all season with the fact that you've just played solid cricket all season,

and you said that group of players, 22 players have played for you in the championship this season, every single one of them. every time he'd needed them has stepped up. Yeah, I think we highlighted it before as well, sort of halfway through the season. I think every time we've needed a performance of someone to step up, they have,

and they've delivered. You know, this game, Popee, the way he played was quite outstanding, to be honest. I think that was a surface that was offering plenty, and for him to come back and do that as a real feather in his cap. But yeah, like you say, using 22 players, I think that's something we knew at the start of the year

was something crucial, the fact that it's a long season, and there's different formats and you know that you're going to need a really good squad to get over the line so that's really pleasing. I thought you've enjoyed captain in this group as well. I'm thinking of the bowlers as well. You know, with what you've had at your disposal,

it must have been a nice bowling adapter captain this. Yeah, it's been good fun. You know, I've worked on pretty hard at times, but I think no one's ever shied away from it and everyone's always tried to take the game on. So, yeah, it's just been really pleased and really enjoyable year. And to get it done here as well,

Obviously, the Mickey Stewart Oval at the moment, but to get it done here, at last time is at New Road, but to get it done here in front of your home fans is lovely, isn't it? Yeah, it's a special feeling. That is really special, you know, to walk around, not taking photos of the Mickey Stewart Oval, that's probably not something that I'd done before the pavilion, and just probably try to enjoy that a little bit more because, you know, these things, they can be becoming quite rare, and I think it's really important that you actually take them in. And I'm worth for Gareth Batty, because I know what it'll be like in interviews,

It'll be everybody else, I didn't do anything, but he's been outstanding, hasn't he? Yeah, he's been brilliant. You know, we speak about guys stepping up and producing, and I think the energy that he attacks every day with has been infectious around this group. You know, he knows that you're going to get 110% out of him every day. And I think the guys know that, and I think the guys give that back to him. And, yeah, I'm delighted for him because he's really deserved it. And the final question, hitting the winning runs as well, Rory Burns, as captain, two titles in the bag.

How was that? How was being out there to actually be out there and hit the winning runs at your home ground as captain, second title? Those sorts of moments don't come along very often, do they? No, really enjoyable. I actually thought we needed five. So when it goes to the boundary, I was like, I think we might need five. And then Pat and came and jumped to me and I was like, oh, we must have done it then. So there you go.

That show, it probably shows how present I was and what I was doing. But, yeah, like you say, a pretty special moment and, yeah, nice to take it off. Maths has never been your strongest, sir, hasn't it? Clearly not. Rory Burns, many congratulations. Well, Mark continue to go round the squad of players talking to as many as he could. Of course, 2022 has been a great year for Olly Pope, England and Surrey. He spoke with Mark.

Pretty special that. At your home ground, walking around with your own fans here, having one another title. just try and sum it up for us. Yeah, it's amazing. I think there's so much hard work that goes into winning championships. It's such a long season and Hampshire's sort of been on our tail all season

so it's nice to shake them off with a game to go. Getting here this morning, obviously you know and knew you had some hard work to. I thought, again, you did today what you've done all season, just solid cricket to get yourselves over the line. Yeah, we've tried to sort of bring the same approach into every day's cricket that we play no matter what the pitch is doing

and no matter of the situation of the game. And I think Bernsley and bats have led that amazingly. So we stuck to, a bit of the cliche, we stuck to our processes this game and this day today. And we knew what had to happen elsewhere for us to be here where we are now in the other games today. So, yeah, unfortunately it's all gone our way this week. A hundred from you, I'm not sure I've seen you back better in a situation in that first innings for Surrey. What must please you is match situation and the fact that it's led to a Surrey win as well. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I would have happily taken no runs this game if we're winning the game, but it was nice to, I sort of read the situation, I knew kind of what the pitch was doing and the challenges their bowlers had. So I thought my best way of counteracting that was trying to go pretty, pretty positive at it, and luckily it paid off. I had a little bit of luck along the way, so yeah, fortunately it came off and helped get our team into a position where we could luckily enforce a follow-on and, yeah, the boys did the job today with the ball.

You and Ben, have had a fantastic summer for England, obviously, but I know how much you two wanted to be back, playing for Surrey, and be here for this moment, because it means so much to you, didn't it? Yeah, absolutely. I think this is a club that's very special, very close to both our hearts. So there wasn't really a question whether we were going to play or not

because our bodies were good. So we were just excited to get back. And, like I said, we just wanted to contribute into a win this week. And, yeah, like I said, the other game went our way as well. Unfortunately, we can enjoy it here at the Mickey Stewart Oval. Yeah, that was going to be my final question. Nice to do it at home as well. Last time was at New Road.

Lovely to do it at home with all your fans here. Yeah, exactly. These guys, they've rocked up pretty much every day of the year, so it's been great to have them. And the support we get here is awesome. So it's nice to put on a show in front of them as well. Well, those are the players we've heard from. What of the interim head coach?

Formerly a player himself here, of course, Gareth Batty. You sort of stated how you wanted it to go this season, before the season even started. You've never talked about the team. You've talked about the squad. And what I've noticed this season is every player that has come in for you

and played in the championship, they've all done their part, haven't there? It's been a real squad effort. Yeah, I think the numbers, about 22 players have played. I believe we have nine blocs averaging plus 45 with the bat. And I think we've got six or,

I think it's seven, actually, averaging under 27 with the ball. The numbers speak for themselves. I wouldn't say I'm the numbers man, but it backs up what we're seeing in training, what we're seeing, people trying to aspire to from a skill level, from an attitude level. To a man, they've all been fantastic and there'll be some lads who haven't played who would have done just as good a job had they have got in, but we can only play 11 at any

time. And I suppose that is the great boost you can give to the group saying actually the guys who aren't playing, how they operate around the group is quite fantastic for human beings to be able to do that. It's not an easy thing to want you made to do well. all the time, even though he's got your place. We have that, we have to cherish that, and we need to extend it for a long period of time. Work for your coaching staff as well, because what goes on behind the

scenes, it's damn our work winning a championship and what goes on behind the scenes is just as important in many ways as what goes on out there in the middle, so just a word for your coaching and backroom start. 22 players, you know, Azar and Trouts have come in this year, they've been fantastic. They've added skill, they've added

tenacity, they've added a togetherness with the group for the people that they are. Alex Tyson has been here for a long time, a long time, being able to get people back on the field recovery periods, Daz, Vanessa, to get them fit throughout the winter months where it's not quite as nice after the COVID stuff to get people driven, to keep them coming back to the well. And then the boss, Alex Stewart, none of this happens without him. It all revolves around him. He's accumulated a wonderful squad. We will only grow that squad, hopefully from within from our academy system, which we're seeing Yousef coming from that.

Look, it's a very exciting time looking forward, not just for today. But we'll enjoy today for a little while longer. Absolutely, and I'll work for your captain as well. The second title win for him. And I just thought there's something really appropriate with him being out there in the middle, at home, hitting the winning runs. But I've said on air, he wants to play for England again. We all know that.

But I don't think it's any surprise that when Surrey won it in 2018, they have their captain there for every game. It's been the same for you this season, and he is a standout captain, isn't it? Yeah, you don't win anything without senior players. Having Roryback, we said at the start of the year, what an incredible boost. And management are very lucky to have him add in some other senior players who've been fantastic throughout the season, both on performance, but how they are with youngsters struck in the changing room. You can't buy that.

You can buy runs, wickets, you can't buy the human beings. and we have some wonderful human beings led brilliantly by England's best opener. And I've allowed other people to talk about you, Gareth Batty. All I'm going to say to you, my friend, is this is lovely, isn't it? And as coach, you must just be so proud of your group of players this evening. Yeah, no, it's been very pleasing how much people have wanted to work and have given. I hope we've given it back from a management perspective that we ain't leaving training until you've done what you need to do. do. I hope we've put our heart and soul into it like they have. Ultimately, they're the ones

that win trophies. I'm going to go sleep for a week. They can enjoy it for a week. Congratulations. Cheers, boss. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. So the Strauss High Performance Review is out. Proposals include, and all lot of this has been written about, talked about, but anyway, on the proposals, the season cut from 14 to 10 matches in a top division of six. Six teams top division, division one, Premier League, whatever you want to call it. The other 12 made up at two divisions, two conferences, from which the teams that win those conferences will be involved in the playoff match to see who gains promotion to the top division. From Division 1, there would be one team relegated.

Okay, so that's the way that looks. Other proposals, 10 T20 games, not 14, so only five at home for any one team. The one-day cup currently takes place, of course, during the 100. They'll be moved to the start of the season, still uncertain as to they talk of it being a sharp competition, a short, sharp competition in April. They're still looking to see if there's an appetite for the national counties to be involved in an F.A. Cup-style competition. And any teams that were knocked out early on in that competition, the possibility that you can have another pre-season, you've already had one pre-season, but a pre-season for your red ball cricket ahead of a championship,

which starts in May. So that's the One Day Cup. And during the 100, a festival of red ball cricket. Each county involved in whatever competitions they want to set up. So it's being sold, if you like. There would be 10 championship matches. But in terms of Red Ball Cricket, and those matches in August would be first class as well.

So that makes it 13. Okay, that's my understanding. Why don't we hear from the man himself? Andrew Strauss has been talking to the BBC's Dan Rowan. Just how significant a set of proposals and recommendations are these, do you think, for the good of the game in this country? Well, at the outset of this project, we talked about being bold and ambitious and innovative to try and create an aligned high-performance system. And personally, I would love to see England be the best team in the world across all formats. I think we've got the capability of doing that.

I think we've got the talent to do that. But our system needs to work better than it is currently. And so these proposals around us coming together, creating a sort of community and alignment. It's around it rewarding our players for the work they do. It's about rewarding our counties for the work they do. It's about making sure we're developing the right skills through the game. And of course it's about making sure our domestic cricket is played on better pitches but also in a more coherent schedule as well.

What is it, apart from that last Ashes result that has proven the case, do you think, that had to be some change? Is it the fact that players are retiring from certain formats, the strain that there seems to be on, the calendar that's now global with so many other competitions and potential rivalries with our domestic competitions? What is it that has sort of for you suggested that there has to be some change? I think three things. First of all, you know, I think historically our performance at international level has been below what we would like. So if we want to be the best team in the world across all format sustainably we've never really done that we've been good at times and we've

had little moments where we've been brilliant but we haven't been brilliant for very long whereas if you look at a team like Australia over an elongated period of time they've been very good across all formats so that should be at least be our ambition to beat Australia let's put it that way and then align to that the game of cricket's moving very quickly around it so these tectonic plates everyone keeps talking about the rise of you know domestic franchise tournaments around the world our players have never had more opportunities outside the international game and we need to be cognizant and recognise that and create you know recommendations to make sure

that we're able to both provide opportunities and financial reward for our players to keep involved in English cricket and keep playing international cricket and then the third one is around the domestic game which is such an important part of this this is the breeding ground of our next England players and it's obviously hugely you know important to a lot of people that follow the domestic game, the current schedule and structure just isn't working. We've heard that very loud and clearly from a huge number of people. So this is about providing solutions to that perennial problem as well.

Some of these proposals are more contentious than others, and I guess the two in particular, which are the ones which will need to go to the counties for a vote and approval. In terms of the county championship, I guess the headline-grabbing proposal is that it will begin later. It'll run throughout the summer months as opposed to it being sort of fractured or splintered as it is currently. But there'll also be fewer matches. It'll be going 14 to 10. Why will that help the game? And the obvious question, I suppose, is what would you say to a county that faces the prospect of losing for revenue-making matches?

Well, I think the first part of that, I think, as you said, the county championship was splintered. A lot of it played in April and September, which are not necessarily the best months for us to play cricket in this country. And so we're trying to create a schedule that allows Red Bull Cricket, high quality Red Bull Cricket to be played throughout the summer. Also, we want to raise the standard intensity of that First Division, which is why we're proposing a six-team first division, higher standard, more intensity, closer to the demands of international cricket. Because at the moment, you know, all the data analysis says that it's a real struggle

for our players to transition from the domestic game into the international game. We want to make that gap as small as we possibly can do. I don't believe for one moment that Ford A Create creates great revenue opportunities for the game. I think the revenue opportunities, unfortunately, whether you like it or not, come in the whiteball game. So I don't think there's a big revenue element to this. But of course, I'm very appreciative that county members love watching county championship cricket. And that's why we're recommending that Red Ball Cricket is also played underneath the 100. And they will be first class fixtures.

There won't be county championship fixtures, but there'll be first class fixtures. And it's an opportunity for the counties to play local derbies to introduce some of the younger players into first-class cricket as well. So that's a development opportunity for some of their players. But the counties will also face the prospect of fewer blast matches as well, right? Well, yeah, we're recommending going from 14 to 10 in the blast. So that is also about making sure that the blast is played in one-to-sync block. And in order to schedule it, it means that we're able to, you know, if we're only playing five home games, as opposed to seven, we don't have to play them on nights of the week that don't work commercially.

So Tuesday nights, etc., etc. We can focus most of those fixtures on, you know, more compelling nights, the Thursdays, the Fridays and the weekends. So taken as a whole, your message to a county looking at these proposals would be what? You would urge them to back them, but I'd urge them to back them, but I'd also urge them to see the advantages in this. You know, I think anything to do the domestic structure, you can always look in an element and say, I don't like that piece of it. I think taken together, this provides a really compelling opportunity for players. There's slightly less cricket, more opportunity to rest and practice, but also to play high-quality cricket in blocks.

For groundsmen, it means they have to produce less pitches. For coaches, it means they can focus on their prep time more than they can currently. And for members, you still get 13 Red Bull games and four great competitions in this country. So there's a lot to be said for it. And of course, it's up to the counties to take that to their members and ultimately to vote on it. But I hope it's compelling. I think as a package of 17 recommendations,

if we all buy into it and all are determined to execute on those recommendations, ultimately it's just a report at the moment. We can have a substantial uplift in our performance in English career. And you're confident that they will take your advice and vote them through? I mean, the counties, they face a difficult financial climate right now, of course. with inflation as businesses, and they might be thinking, goodness, we face the prospect of, okay, maybe higher quality matches, but fewer, we're going to have to sort of take your word for that,

that that quality will pay dividends in the long run. Given all of that, how confident are you that you'll get them through? Yeah, well, I think the financial thing, you know, you just need to make sure so that one of our recommendations is rewarding counties better for both the work they do on the pitch, so the performances on the pitch, but also developing England players. So if they're doing their bit for English cricket, they should get rewarded better for that.

So that's one of the recommendations. Look, I'm hopeful. I'm very hopeful that the game's going to come together and see the advantages in this. My job is to talk to a lot of county chairman over the coming days and weeks and hopefully move things forward. Well, there's an awful lot to take,

despite the fact that all of this has been written about, of course, over the last few weeks of months, there's an awful lot to try and take in of the review and what we're hearing reaction ECB chair Richard Thompson the ECB board and executive unanimously support the men's

high performance reviews recommendations John Stevenson who is the is actually sort of stand in chair at the moment at Essex but he's also the CEO he says as things stand he's been speaking to BBC Essex this morning you can hear that on BBC sounds he's around at 1130 this morning says as things stand they can't support this

the chair at Kent Simon Philip we will not allow our club to be rendered irrelevant. He also says the Strauss Review is a wide-ranging and comprehensive document. However, it should be remembered that it has not been prepared through the prism of high performance only.

That the Players' Union, if you like, the group, that the PCA have been saying, the player's welfare needs to be the underpin of the future structure and schedule. There's so many different points of view coming in on this. And I'm very grateful that John Philby, who's the chair of Sussex

is listening in the moment. We'll go to Johnny's up there at Chester Street at a moment, but first Alex Stewart has also kindly agreed to have a little chat with us, director of cricket here. The Strauss' high performance review, just an overarching response from you to begin with.

What do you make of its findings? A lot of proposals. A lot of work has gone into it. I think, you know, Andrew Strauss, we know what a fine cricketer he's been and he's been a very influential administrator as well since he packed in playing. So there's a lot points there that I agree with and there will be other points that will create discussion, I think not just around members, counties, but within counties as well, because cricket may

have a view, but then the finance department may have a different view, the members may have a different view. So we've got to collate all those opinions to then get the right decision for the cricket. If it was just high performance and you forgot the members, you forgot the finances, then yeah, go for it, what Andrew has presented. But it's a little bit bigger than that in my opinion that we must respect the members who pay their membership monies to come and watch and support and then the finances which make the game happen does it all balance up nicely

but I am a big fan of best v best now is best v best is six team first division or is the proposal or whatever that is one of the proposals is six are you happy with six if I just put six to one side I believe there is too much cricket played in our county season

and by that I mean when it's played and how it's played so you can't keep expecting players to play different formats at the same time because that is an injury waiting to happen which the medical team and experts will show the data on that should you be playing a four-day game a day off a travel day and then play

is that good and right one on the body so the duty of care to the player but also the quality of the cricket should you be having to rest bowlers because of the itinerary from your best side because you think they may get injured? So these are all the types of things from a cricket side of the fence that need to be looked at seriously from a viewing point of view. No, you want to watch as much cricket as you can.

But you also want to watch quality. So I think getting that balance right is so important. So is 10 games enough? It depends what else gets cut. Is it easy to get rid of those four championship games and keep more T20 blast games, for example, because financially that looks after so many of the counties? Is it, no, we'll keep a little bit more county championship cricket

and reduce the T20 for the quality of the cricket. They're the discussions that must still be had before a final decision is made. How can playing fewer games make better cricketers? I'm talking about red ball cricket. So more time on the training ground. Yes, you learn obviously a lot in the middle. you can't beat playing 100%

that's where you learn most but in our current structure and this has been the case for a long long time a couple of things do the players have enough time to work on their technique if little bad habits creep in is a 20 minute net squeezed in between games enough

to iron out problems to make them really robust to have a method that then succeeds out in the middle is it right that a quick bowl and say we've got Jamie Overton here. Other Counts will have similar quick bowlers. We're asking him to bowl, you know, five over real quick spell. He might bowl 25 overs. Then he has two days and then he has to go again. Can he still maintain? I will try and work on bowlers, or cricketers, but bowlers

working at the minimum of 85% capacity. If they keep bowling too much, the 85% I'm talking is a Duracill battery type of thing. Once the energy drops, your performance drops. So you're trying to maintain the high performance, which is what Andrew Strauss review was all about. So it's getting that balance right. And that's why I don't want to be drawn right now on to, is it 10 games, 12 games, 14 games? I'd look at the number of days. Can we cut the number of days that we play and then fit in the right amount of play, then review, then train to improve, then travel, then play. I know people listening to us, along will be passionate.

They'll be shouting. let me say, 100. None of this would be necessary if not for the 100. Now, you didn't choose the 100, okay, but that winds people up because we wouldn't have this problem if not for the 100. Fully agree, and that's a fact. The counties, right, I'm sat here in a Surrey shirt, did not vote for the 100. Every other county voted and took 1.3 million to give August to the ECB.

Basically, who said the other day, county cricket has sold off August. that is what has happened and now we are seeing the knock on effect of that where members etc can suffer as Andrew Strauss just said there in the interview there will be some cricket but what type of cricket will that be during the hundred

So why don't you want the championship played why can't it be the championship because that that would Again with my surrey shirt on we lost 14 players to the 100 so how can we be competitive if we're talking about a championship even now in the first division

we do not play everyone twice so the top three sides Hampshire and Surrey we have not played each other twice we've only played each other the ones in a league you should it should be equal parity so you play each other home and away

in my opinion so to then say we'll play county championship during 100 when some sides will lose up to 12 or 14 players other sides will lose 8 other sides may lose none how can that be a fair equal competition what would you gain

what do you gain most of it Okay, those players, the numbers you've just given us, you lose those players in August. So what do you gain, in your position, more from, One Day Cup or Red Bull Cricket? The Festival of Red Bull Cricket. It could be a London Cup. It could be you versus Middlesex, of a series of three matches. This is where it comes back to, you must play. Well, one is you must play meaningful cricket.

Is that meaningful? So the 50 over this year, and last year when 100 was going on, so Kent will quite rightly say, and congratulations them, It was meaningful cricket. They won a trophy, so that's brilliant. It was meaningful for us, even though we were 12 or 14 players down, that I was able to play three academy players in list A cricket. So I was able to see 17 and 18-year-olds perform at list A level, admittedly. Some of it was close to the second team than first team, if it was full strength.

But I actually got to see three players who we may be looking to sign. Do we put them on a professional contract, a rookie contract, or actually, no, there's still a little bit of a way to go. So it's a learning. That's why I used the term development competition from our point of view. Other counties saw it as a great opportunity to win a trophy because they may have only lost one or two players to the 100, and therefore they were near enough full strength.

So each county, again, will have a different reason for wanting something different to Andrew Strauss's review. But were a festival of Red Bull Cricket be meaningful? But Rory, let's take Rory as an example, does Rory really gain from playing festival redball cricket in August? It depends what the opposition are, what depends, what services you play on and where. That is a problem. Well, it's not going to be here and it's not going to be the Lord, is it? So I'd also say, and I don't think Andrew, I didn't hear all of his interview, would there be opportunities for England Lions games to play against West Indies A, Australia, A, during, so your best players who are getting closer to England?

Aleck, it doesn't sound to me as if you're a fan of the festival of Red Ball cricket during the 100. I've always wanted to play meaningful cricket. That's what I'm saying. You can't not play any cricket. I definitely don't want championship cricket during August. So that is a headline. I do not want championship cricket play during the 100. You have to play some cricket.

One, because of members and supporters of the game must have something to watch if they choose not to go to the 100. But at the same time, the players have to know why they're playing it and what the gains are through playing that. you're challenging for the title you could even win it today but you're challenging for the title you know in box seat for winning it this year

but what if you in a season of 5th or 6th in that top division you could be facing the relegation of into those two divisions and sorry have been there there's quite in quite recent memory how would you feel like that

you're in those two conferences of 6 and 12 And professional sport is cutthroat is ruthless. No one has a divine right to be in just one division. You've got to earn the right to play with the big boys to use the term. That is a thing. So in all other sport, in football, Premier League, championship, second or first and second division, if you're good enough, you get promoter.

If you're not good enough, you get relegated. And that's part of, you know, and that's why comes back to best v best is crucial. And you want good, healthy competition. That is the thing. You've got to earn the right to be in the top division. That's been my opinion for a number of years. Thank you, as always. Alex Stewart, who is Director of Cricket.

Sorry, John Philby's on the line. John will be, like me, you know, sitting and enjoying Alec down the years as a wonderful international cricket. We're going to listen to him, John. But you're in that position now of Chair of Sussex. And thank you very much for joining us from up there at Chester Street, where Sussex currently are. Any initial reaction to the review,

or maybe it's something that Alec has just said there and good afternoon to you. Thank you, Kevin. My initial reaction is it's a privilege to follow Alex Stewart not just because of his cricketing achievements, but because of the common sense that he's just delivered in that short interview with you. I more or less agree with everything that he said.

First of all, it now is not the time for us to get into conversations exactly about how many games the championship season should be made up of. The fact, as far as I'm concerned, and I believe that the majority of Count is concerned, is that the current schedule is unworkable. But I think it's also right to say that the offering put forward by the Strauss High Performance Review

is equally unworkable as far as counter cricket is concerned. It's a, as Alec said clearly, looked at through the lens only of high performance it's exactly what the game needs but we're not looking only through the lens of high performance we're looking through a financial and commercial lens we're looking through the lens through the eyes of our members who have cricket that they want

and in Sussex particularly the the T20 competition we fill the ground up in 2019 we had eight sellouts and the eye And that obviously has financial benefit to us, roughly £100,000 for each of those eight games in terms of profit to Sussex cricket. But also, the 6.5,000 people who turn up every game are getting an opportunity to really enjoy experience at the cricket.

And it can't be acceptable that we in Sussex shut our ground for a couple of matches when we know that there are people who are desperate to come and watch and enjoy some of the world's great cricketers playing at Hove. So Richard Thompson has said clearly that the high performance review is an excellent piece of work in terms of high performance and that it's now the job of their counties to go away and consider amongst ourselves. First of all, the county chairman will meet and we'll take in the views of our directors of cricket such as Alex and our chief executives. and we will meet and talk about that and then we'll also consult with our members and once we've done that

we'll then be in a position to make a coherent group response to the high-performance review. Can I ask, are you confident you'll be able to bring about a coherent response to this? History suggests that doesn't happen in County Cricket John. I am confident. I'm confident first of all in the leadership of Richard Thompson. secondly confident in the group of chairs.

There are 18 chairs in counter cricket. All share huge passion for cricket. All understand the importance of England being the best team in the world, all driving proudly towards that. Sussex have contributed amongst others, Olli Robinson and Joffa Archer in recent years, and we're extremely proud of them, and we love watching their achievements on the world stage,

and we're driving for that. And I'm very confident that the group that we've got together will be able to meet and we'll be able to find a, I think in life you need to find compromises. And there's a compromise somewhere that exists between what we have now, which is unacceptable, and what Sir Andrew Strauss has proposed, which in many ways is equally unacceptable. And we'll work towards that. We'll get there. What's unacceptable, John? I mean, if you're talking of compromise, what do you say is a line that mustn't be crossed? What is unacceptable from that review that you can...

No way could you ever be persuaded that that is the way, and something that you think, well... So are you prepared to give a bit on the championship if it means you get your full seven-home T-20 matches, for example? I did say that I didn't really want to get drawn into talking about the number of championship games, But it's the question, isn't it? It's a big question. But the two things are the biggest red lines, as far as I'm concerned, are a reduction of the blast and this festival cricket stuff. Alec talked about cricket being meaningful. Our members only want to watch meaningful cricket. We played the world champions at Hove over the May bank holiday. So it's quite a good time to attract an audience. And people didn't want to come and watch that.

You're talking New Zealand. You're talking New Zealand. at your place and you couldn't sell. And we couldn't sell it. And so if we can't sell New Zealand, the chances of us selling some sort of random festival red ball cricket in August a nil. And so Alec talked well about the success of the Royal London Cup this year.

We at Hove had a really enjoyable year. We'd have liked a bit more cricket, to be honest. You know, it's undoubtedly true that there's too much cricket played in April and September and not enough cricket played in August and we've got to find a way between us to balance that out. I'm sure we can do that. But those would be the two biggest red lines. As far as our members and the current board of Sussex cricket have a stated position that we believe 14 championship matches is the right number. But in the spirit of compromise

and in the language of compromise, we're going to have to go away, think about that, talk about that and identify the best program. Well, the compromise they've tried to come up with, John, is the fact that they'll say to your case, we have 10 championship matches, but actually you've got 13, a minimum of 13, so you get to the playoff from the conference, you'll have 14, but let's just talk about the number 13 for now. You've got 13 first class matches if you have your festival of red ball in August, so why not?

But they're first class in name only. That will not be regarded as first class cricket. they won't be first-class cricket in terms of the strength of the teams and they won't be first-class cricket in terms of the competitive nature as Alex said we need meaningful cricket

our members need meaningful cricket our casual supporters need meaningful cricket everybody wants context I try to put across at times questions and I just pick up generally off social media and this comes up time and time again that this is actually

some less than and well-hidden plan to drive some counties out of business. Do you go along with that? I can't believe that that's true. The ECB have a clearly straighted strategy, which is to create a thriving domestic game. The thriving domestic game needs 18 centres of excellence. Those 18 centres of excellence exist.

And if you go to any of the counties in the country, you'll see excellent facilities, hard-working coaches, hard-working players, and you'll see largely competitive cricket. I accept the idea that I very much accept the idea that we can do better on making the cricket more competitive, more meaningful, that's all good. But the idea that we should, that in our, the way that the UK is set up with the 18 Centre of Excellence delivering high-quality cricketers to England and that we should somehow reduce that number

and that would be good for the game I absolutely don't accept. And I don't believe that anybody thinks that's a good idea. The idea, just to clear, it's a bit of clarity. We're talking about, I'm still myself uncertain. What people think is what on earth can be meaningful for county cricket during the month of August. And it's a term that you've not used, but it's increasingly used, now that county cricket has sold off the month of August to the ECB.

So what on earth can really be meaningful cricket during that month? We had meaningful cricket this year. Our members, the problem was there wasn't enough of it. We only had four days cricket at home between July the 12th and September the 12th. But those four days, and actually because we qualified for the semi-final, we had a fifth day, so we had five days. And as it became clear to the people of Sussex that our team was doing well, that we have got, an exciting group of young batters that people want to watch.

The crowds grew. We had over 3,000 people for the game against Surrey and it was a slightly more experienced Sussex team playing a slightly less experienced Surrey team. But Alec talked about the benefits to the Surrey players of that

and there were certainly benefits to the Sussex players of it. And the crowd that came along had a fantastic day in the sun by the seaside at Hove. and I believe that to create passion for cricket around the country we need more of that not less of it and I'm pretty confident that a meaningful competition played at that time would attract support and enable the development of cricketers so I would say more of the same from this year not not meaningless festival stuff if it does get voted through John one I know you want time

I know Richard Thompson, the ECB chair, is talking about giving you time. How long do you want? Again, these subjects are not new subjects. How long do you need to sort this out? And secondly, if it does go through, and your position at the moment as a county cricket club, Sussex, you'll be in the second division next year, what on earth would you be playing for for the entirety of next summer as a county cricket club knowing that you can't get into that top six? So you know your fate is going to be in the two divisions.

and it will be split up seeded. So even if you finish higher in the table, it doesn't mean you're going to get anything to reward the next year. Are you concerned about what next summer would actually mean for you in your team by being in the second division if this does get voted through? I'm very concerned about that. Can I answer the first question first, which is the one about time? I think that we absolutely need to get it sorted before the start of next season.

I think it would be preferable to get it. sorted quicker so that we can find a way to make the next season competitive in the way that you've identified. That certainly is an issue but we can't allow

the impact of one season to force us to move more quickly than we reasonably can. So it would be very regrettable if the second division next season had no competitive outcome. How can it have a competitive

outcome? I suppose the only way would be if cash incentives were offered. I suppose that's the only way that that could be done. But it's much more important that we get together, we collaborate, we work with all the first class counties together and indeed the national counties to work out what our pyramid of cricket in this country should look like and what should be a

at the top of it and we need to do that piece of work and we can't we can't be forced it won't be helpful for us to be set false deadlines to to do that i'm afraid john philby who is chair of sussex county cricket club you're listening to the tms podcast from bbc radio five live