Test Match Special - T20 World Cup: England humbled by brilliant India

Episode Date: June 27, 2024

England's World Cup defence is over as India thrash them by 68 runs to book their place in the final.Henry Moeran is joined by Steve Finn, Alex Hartley and Phil Tufnell to dissect where it went wrong for England.There's reaction from captains Jos Buttler and Rohit Sharma.Plus, we look ahead to Saturday's final between South Africa and India.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. To embrace the impossible requires a vehicle that pushes what's possible. Defender 110 boasts a towing capacity of 3,500 kilograms, a weighting depth of 900 millimeters, and a roof load up to 300 kilograms. Learn more at landrover.ca. BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. You're listening to the TMS Podcasts. from BBC Radio 5 Live.

Hello, I'm Henry Moran and welcome to the Test Match Special podcast as India thrash England to reach the World Cup final. Jasbri Bumra runs in over the wicket to bowl to. Oh, Joff Raj has struck on the pad. He's going to be out and he is. Up goes the finger.

England are out of the tournament. Yes, India's bowlers outclassing the title holders, England, who lose by 68 runs in pursuit of 172. All the reaction to come, plus the thoughts of Stephen Finn, Alex Hartley and Phil Toffnell, and we'll look ahead to Saturday's final between India and South Africa. This is the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

Alex Hartley, Stephen Finn, alongside me. Finney, we often try and look for the flaws as to where things have gone wrong for a team. In a game they've lost heavily, did England get it wrong at the toss? Look, they clearly, they like chasing. That's the way that they decide to play T20 games. that have looked at the surface and maybe they'd have thought it's not going to get too much worse over the course of 40 overs. And you have to trust that judgment. I think that it's very difficult to sit here and say that the game was lost at the toss.

I think clearly India wanting to win the toss and bat first was a sign that they saw maybe something different in the surface. But I just think that's the way that England liked to go about their games. It's how they've had success in this tournament. and they trusted that process to do it again. It didn't work today. I think we have to give a lot of credit to India for the way that they played and how formidable they've looked throughout this entire tournament. And hello to Phil Tuftonel, who's been following the action as well.

Tough, as we said at the halfway stage, 172 felt like a big target. In the end, far too many. Yeah, no, we sort of called it, didn't we? We thought England would have to get off to a good start. That didn't quite happen, even though Just Butler sort of shone briefly. and then we just knew that the Indian spinners on that sort of pitch I didn't think it was going to quite disintegrate

as much as it did but I mean that would have been a tricky chase in a test match let alone in a T20 and England listen take nothing away from India unbeaten they've played well they've looked the form horse all the way through

this competition but we said that you know what was going to happen and it sort of did didn't it I mean it was like a domino effect in that sort of middle phase for the England batsman. And they looked a bit bereft of ideas, actually. I mean, you know, they were tapping it about.

I mean, Harry Brooke managed to get a couple of sweeps away. But apart from that, tied up in knots by the Indian spinners and didn't have an answer for it. Yeah, it felt that way. It felt actually rather like some of those test matches we've seen in play against India over the years, Alex. Yeah, look, I think we all said that you win the Toshy Bowl first on that surface. So I just think sometimes you've got to accept that you've been outplay.

I didn't hear you say that, though, toughers. I did at the start. I said I bet India have a bowl for have a bat first. Well, we'll sort of assess where it all went wrong shortly. We're going to hear from the captains in just a moment. I'll be really interested to hear from Josh Butler. What's your instinct, Finning? You know that you know him well.

I think they didn't bowl particularly well. I thought that they gifted India with some full deliveries. I thought it was very obvious from early that you had to bowl within the width of the stamp. back of a length and change your pace from there they were the tricky balls to hit I think if you missed full or you missed wide then it offered scoring opportunities and I think that England may be offered

a few too many of those inside the first 10 overs which gave India the platform for that lower order to come in and play cameos Suria Kumar Yadav Hardik Pandya had cameos and it's those kinds of cameos that can damage you in a lowish scoring game

and that's the thing isn't it there was just those odd moments in this game Alex, where things worked in India's favour, and they made it work in their favour. Yeah, they did. I think that's what India do so well. They do adapt to surfaces really well, don't they? They've played on, you know, so many surfaces in the IPO where they've been flat, but also the sticky surfaces that we've had like today.

And I think the way they adapted, the way that, you know, you know, Suria Kumar, Yadav's going to take on the game. He's going to play in one way and one way only. If it fails, it doesn't matter. But if he comes off, he changes the game. And there was an over with two sixes in it from Hardik Pandia later. ton where it really did change the game for India. And that was the thing, wasn't it? There was just a little phase of momentum toughers.

Yeah, absolutely. A little bit surprised Moen Ali didn't get a bowl. You know, India utilized all their spinners to great effect. And yeah, that last five overs. I'm going to stop with that toughers. Here comes Josh Butler with Michael Atherton. 68 runs the difference between the teams. Did that accurately reflect the golf between the sides today, do you think? Yeah, I think India's certainly outplayed us. I think maybe let them get 20, 25 runs too many. It was a challenging surface that they played well on.

And, yeah, they outplayed us and fully deserved the win. It's a funny game, T20, two years ago, with many of the same players. You handed out a similar drubbing. How do you explain the kind of turnaround, given that there's so many same players on both sides? Yeah, two years on, different conditions. It's very different. And, yeah, credit to India, I thought they played a really good game of cricket. and as I said, they deserve the win.

You said different conditions. People will look at the decision at the toss to bowl first. A day game, a slow low pitch likely to get slower. A, just explain the rationale behind that. And B, now standing here, whether you have any second thoughts about that. Yeah, I think just obviously with the rain around those conditions, probably didn't think it was going to change that much and I actually don't think it really did.

I thought they outbowled us, as I said. I thought they had an above-pass score. so I don't think necessarily the toss was the difference between the teams and given that Adil Rashid and Liam Livingstone bowled so well I think they went for 49 between them was there that fear in the back of your mind once 171 was posted about what India's spinners could do yeah I think so obviously they've got some fantastic spinners our two guys bowed well I think you know again in hindsight should have bowled

moin in that innings with the way that the spin was playing so yeah I think I think they had a, like I said, above-pass score and with a brilliant bowling attack, it was always going to be a tough chase. You stand here as semi-finalist, that's an achievement, obviously. How do you look back at your tournament as a whole, given that against the leading nations or the main test-playing nations, you won one match? I think with everything that's happened throughout the whole tournament, yeah, really proud of everyone's efforts to be here. You can only play who's put in front of you. And I think we've had lots of adversity throughout the competition. We've stuck together well as a group, played some really good cricket in patches,

but come up short when we needed it most. Okay, we thank you for your time and the cricket you've played. Thank you. Rohit, a very different feeling for you from Adelaide, I imagine. Yeah, absolutely. Very satisfying, actually, to win this game. We worked really hard as a unit to come through this stage. And to win this game like that was a great effort from every person.

You seem to put together the near perfect game. What was the key today, do you think? I thought we adapted to the conditions really well. The conditions were a little challenging. We had to adapt. And that's been the success story for us so far, you know, till this game, you know, we have adapted to the conditions really well. We played the conditions really well.

And then, you know, the bowlers and the batters, if they understand the condition and they play, according to the conditions, things fall in place. And that's exactly what happened for us today. very pleasing to see how we came through this game you're out there at the start obviously you have the perfect look at everything how quickly did you assess what kind of score is likely to be competitive today yeah look I mean at one stage we were feeling 140 hundred and fifty and then as the game went on

we got some runs in the middle me and Suria got that partnership then we said okay another 25 25 runs more but again you know I I can set the target in my mind but I don't want to let anyone know about it to the batters because they are all instinctive players and I want them to go out there and play freely without thinking too much about what's the power score. We bat well, we understand the condition well, we will get to a good score and that's exactly what happened. We got to 170 which I thought was a very good score on that pitch and then the bowlers were fantastic. And presumably always felt that your spinners on that surface were going to hold the key

an axe are and Kaldi outstanding. Yeah, absolutely. I think the gunspiners, you know, when the conditions like that are there in front of them, obviously it's very difficult, you know, to play some shots. And obviously, you know, the pressure is on them as well to come and execute those balls, but I thought they were very calm. They exactly knew what to bowl.

And we had a little chat after the first innings. We said, you know, try and hit the stumps as much as possible, keep the stums in play and that's exactly what they did. Not at all areas of the team are functioning perfectly. Virat is short of runs. You've batted opposite him for so long now. Is there anything you notice at the other end to explain the struggle? I mean, look, he's a quality player.

Any player can go through that. But again, we do understand his class and we do understand his importance in all these big games. Form is never a problem because, you know, when you have played cricket for 15 years, form is never a problem. I thought, you know, he's looking good. The intent is there.

He's probably saving for the finals. I was going to say, you back in for the final? Absolutely. Was there anything from your experience in Ahmedabad seven months ago now that will stand you in good stead come the final again on Saturday? Yeah, look, we've been very calm as a team. I know we do understand the occasion. You know, it's a big occasion, but for us,

it's important that we keep calm. because I thought, you know, staying calm, composed, helps you make good decisions. And that is what will be required as well. We've got to keep making good decisions throughout the 40 overs, and that will help us, you know, making, you know, the game through. And I thought in this game as well, we were very steady, we were very calm, we didn't panic too much, and that has been the key for us. We need to understand that occasion, yes, it's quite important,

but, you know, you've got to play cricket as well. You've got to play good cricket as well. And that will allow you when you are very composed in your mind, you know, and that is what we want to do in the finals as well. It's been a long way 2013, the last ICC global event at India won. Do you have faith that this team under your leadership can do what the others didn't? We'll try our best. That's all I can say. You know, the team is in good shape. They're playing well.

All I can hope is to put up another good show come in the finals. Well played today. Thank you. Bring more gear, carry more passengers, face greater challenges. Welcome to the world of Defender, with seating up to eight, ample cargo space, and legendary off-road capability. It's built to make the most of every adventure. Learn more at landrover.ca. This is the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

Well, that's both captains, Josh Butler and Roet Sharma, with Michael Atherton, down on the boundary. edge. Phil Tuffel, Alex Hartley and Stephen Finn alongside me. Tuffer, some interesting comments there from Butler, who said that 20, 25 runs too many, sort of what we were saying at the halfway stage, acknowledged that Moeen perhaps should have bowled, given that how spin was playing. But perhaps I think that the quote that for me stood out, or the question was the one from Michael Athernan saying that only one match was won against one of the big sides, i.e. the West Indies. And that is quite telling, isn't it?

I mean it's you know brushed a pass Amman and Namibia you know to get themselves into a position and you're right I think that they just looked especially in this game with the batting they let with the batting they looked a little clueless you know they didn't have any answer to what was happening with the spin bowlers they knew what was going to be happening they knew what they were going to face they knew what the pitch was going to do and they didn't really looked to me like they had any sort of plan and it was a real domino effect um you know if you're going to go down sometimes you may as well go down fighting but then runouts and confusion you know patting it around a little bit also is to say 50 off the last five overs didn't

help and gave india that momentum to sort of like going at the break really on top but uh yeah completely outplayed completely outplayed by india um as we thought that it would be yeah I think sometimes that can happen, can't it? And I think going into that second innings, England needing 170-odd to win, we knew that it was too many. And I think losing early wickets, we said at the halfway stage, that was going to be key, didn't we? If England lose Joss Butler or Phil Salt early,

then they're going to be in trouble. And unfortunately, if England lost both pretty early on. Finney, Josh Butler isn't someone who gives away a huge amount in interviews, and of course this will be very raw. But what do you think he's feeling after this? Well, major disappointment. I'd have thought they came here with real aspirations of trying to defend their title. They haven't really hit their straps against the big teams, have they?

Which has caused problems for them throughout the tournament. I think he spoke of his pride of how his team have managed to get here, considering the adversity that they faced and the manner in which they had to win those games at the back end of the group stage. But they'll be going home disappointed, I think. But also, when you do sit on the plane and you look at the team that's beaten you there, I think you can understand losing to that Indian team because I think across the board

they've looked completely dominant in every game that they've played so far this World Cup. They just have to do it one more time and if you lose to the eventual champions who have been that dominant all the way through, I think that's something that you can live with. Yeah, I think they'll be pretty disappointed just the way they've gone about it as well though.

As you say, good comment by Hafters, you know, you've just beaten one side really and everything else has been a little bit scratchy I agree with Steve that you know they came up short against probably the best team in the competition and on that surface as well but I think they'll be sitting there just going hold on a minute you have a little look around this side

with all the sort of star players I don't think they've performed I don't think they've performed during this competition I really don't I think they've come up short and okay they've managed to sort of like scratch their way through to a semi-final and then it all came tumbling down on them and yeah I can only give them

a four or five out of ten for this performance I mean the actual performance in this T20 World Cup Finney yeah I agree yeah it's just it's a very difficult thing

to evaluate isn't it when you get to a semi-final but you feel like maybe you've not hit your potential in the tournament but that is why they're not playing in the final isn't it they've not made it all the way there

because they've come up short against the better teams. There'll be a period of evaluation and how this team now moves forward and what happens there after the dust has settled on this but certainly with the players that they had at their disposal, you'd have hoped they'd got to the final

they only made it to the semis. I think also Henry, I think also Henry, it's just, as you said, we called it, didn't we? We called it. We called it against Australia. We called it. It's just a little bit of that sort of inevitability. As soon as we saw it turn in,

we know that this England side don't particularly adapt well to slow, low sort of turning pitches and exactly what happened. So I think that they need to just perhaps refocus on sort of their plans and how they're going to go about it because they looked a bit clueless there, didn't they in that run chase? Let's be fair.

It's not as bad as the 50 over World Cup, let's make no mistake. It could have been much worse than the 50 other World Cup, could it? No. Things can only get better after that war cup. Well, we could have got knocked out at the group stages. Well, yeah, very true. Nearly did.

Let's not forget. Nearly did. We shouldn't overreact. I think it's always the point. It's so easy when, in the immediate aftermath of a heavy defeat to get knocked out of a tournament, Finney, you can over. Now is not the time for overreaction. It is it. Now is not the time for hyperbole and overreaction.

It's about accepting that you scrap your way to a World Cup semi-final. You've lost it. They've not played their best, but they've still made it to a semi-final. And they've lost to who are the most well-round. team in the tournament who are on a vengeance mission to make up for all the missed opportunities that they've had over the last 11 years

that they've waited for an ICC tournament and the last 13 years that they've not won a World Cup in the meantime England have won two and that is a good point and you can also accept that sometimes teams can be very good and lose to two good teams as England have lost to the two finalists

and Australia but they haven't you know South Africa and India haven't lost the game in this World Cup so you've got to accept that and then the Australia game, you know, that any other day that goes either way. It's just one of those things. I don't think England's World Cup has been disastrous. You know, it's not been their best. Don't get me wrong. You know, their best, they win it, don't they? Obviously, like any other team. But I think England will look back and go, well, the rain against Scotland. We could have been out. We could have been through no fault of our own. So, you know,

they've done well to get to the semi-finals. And today, they were outplayed by a better team. And that's sometimes you've got to hold your hands up and say we weren't quite good enough today. So what do you think then that this England side will take from this then? What do you think they'll be sitting on that plane? Oh, well, we just came up against an India side sort of unlucky. Or do, you know, what are the plans that they put in this in place then to make themselves a better team, do you think? Well, I thought they got their team selection wrong in the first couple of games. I thought Topley should have played as an opening bowler to try and make the most of the power play with the ball in hand.

He subsequently came in and bowled well. get whacked really in any of the games that was a positive thing for the team I think the one thing that they will take away from this is that I think they played with better intent than they did in that 50 over World Cup I think they came home from the 50 over World Cup having not at any stage really in that tournament given a good account of themselves in any game even against the weaker teams and and I think that the messaging to the team here would have been if you're going to if you're going to go out make sure you've fallen your sword doing so and I think that we've seen more of that in this tournament

aside from that big defeat against Australia where they lost it in the first five overs with the ball in hand. They had a good scrappy game against South Africa. It came out on the wrong side of and they've got beaten by a very good team in India here today in a semi-final. So

I don't think it's panic stations for me there have been learnings but this team again has to adapt, regenerate and move forward. Tuffus as a country how do you think we cope with both of our men's sort of seen sporting teams with managers that are under pressure and teams that are underperforming because a lot of talk about Matthew Mott's position and we'll forget Gareth Southgate for the time

being but it's very easy to as we've said before react in a sort of wild sort of extreme way immediately but you know he's delivered a T20 World Cup in 2022 there have been improvements albeit not huge improvements in the way that England have played in this tournament in relation to the 50 over World Cup just butler will feel that he will of course also wanted more, but again, that there have been slight improvements. I mean, where are we with it? Well, I think it's just a huge expectation, and

I think it's sort of justified. I mean, it's a good comparison of the football side, really, you know, because you sit there and you look, and they've got some fantastic players, world beaters, absolute world beaters in the cricket and the football side, all playing all around the world, but just seem to

I don't know, I don't know, for the last as you say, for the last year, year and a half, it just seems to be that they're not quite at it. And it seems a little bit inevitable that when you come up against an obstacle or a South Africa or an Australia or a turning pitch against India,

we're just not seeming to deliver against those bigger sides for my mind. Now, where that stems from, I'm not too sure. But yeah, you're right. There's small crumbs of comfort and they played a little bit better than the 50 over World Cup. But, I mean, crikey, that's not hard to do.

They didn't even show up. So at least they showed up and scrapped a little bit in this one. But you just see that side of England and you think, well, Crike O'Reilly, they should be favourites almost, but just not quite delivering for some reason. Can't quite put my finger on it. But, you know, that's the pressures of sport at the top level, isn't it? You have an expectation and, you know, you get paid lots of money to go and deliver that expectation. And we're just falling short at the moment.

Alex could be the end of an era for a lot of this team Johnny Bear Stowe perhaps Moeen Alley similarly you look at Chris Jordan as another name Adel Rashid all players that are well into their 30s and have done

incredible things for this England side let's make no mistake about that but time moves on yeah of course it does and there's always going to be conversations when you when you don't get through to a final or winner world cup with the management the captain and how do this team move

forward I think you know they've got a lot of youngsters coming through we've seen that can they replace Chris Jordan I don't know he's got so much skill at the death hasn't he yes he didn't bowl particularly well today but he has done in previous games and he has over the years I think Adil Rashid is

pretty irreplaceable you know he's been absolutely fantastic the whole way through this World Cup so there are obviously going to be talks and questions asked about retirements and you know not making people step aside but asking people to step aside for to bring youngsters through for the next World Cup

but they're conversations that unfortunately we won't hear anything about until it's out in the press. So the World Cup final, India against South Africa, it feels like a mouth-watering prospect, doesn't it, Finney? Because you've got two sides that have got history beckoning, really. South Africa have never been in this position. India, it's been so long since they've listed an ICC, lifted an ICC trophy. It's a fascinating encounter.

Yeah, I think there'll be very differing emotions inside those dressing rooms. I think clearly going into it, South Africa will be nervous, having not been there before, and India will be buoyed and buoyant and expectant by the way that they've played throughout this tournament. But you'd almost feel as though if India win it, they'll breathe a sigh of relief and say, okay, finally we've done it. And if South Africa win it, it'll be pure joy and happiness and something that it's uncharted territory, isn't it? So I think they're two fantastic teams. I think on the whole, they've been the two best teams in the tournament.

they're the two best balanced teams from 1 to 11 for me who've pretty much picked the same team all the way through the tournament the only thing that they've differed per pitch is whether they've played a seamer as their extra bowler or a spinner as their extra bowler and I think that's stability through both teams and the way that they've played

leaves them deserving finalists and it really is a mouthwatering prospect as if Salafka ever get here they're stuck in Trinidad aren't they? They have seen yeah they're still stuck there they've had difficulties getting to Barbados which is certainly far from ideal in terms of their preparation.

But tough, these are two sides that filled with talent, and on their day could beat any other team in the tournament. We are going to see history as well. No side's ever gone through a T20 World Cup in the men's game and won the trophy. My only concern for South Africa is because they've not been in this position before, how are they going to cope with that pressure? Well, I mean, you know, how do you cope with any sort of pressure

that they're guys who have played at the top level, you've got to crope at that pressure it's as simple as that. Two fantastic bowling lineups but I just put India's Nouse with the bat above South Africa's with the bat you know they've both played

well India have played very well all tournament can they keep that going or is that little blip going to be in the final one I don't think it will be South Africa have had to fight and scrap and sort of win some tight games along the line and is it going to be a step two

far up for them as you say best two teams by far in my mind uh in the final and i think india will just have that sort of um yeah nouse uh to get a score if it's a dodgy pitch or to make the most of a flat pitch and you know i thought roit sharma captain beautifully today uh you know bowling changes were just right pace with the bat uh you know partnerships and everything like that i thought he was he was on top form today with the uh as captain and really led his side well. But then again, so is Aidan Markram. So it's going to be interesting to see how the matchup is.

I just think they're going to have a little bit too much up their sleeve, India, for South Africa. Yeah, I would agree. I think India look ominous, and you feel as though they're not going to come a cropper. I think they'll do everything in their power to not come a cropper against South Africa here. In the final, I think Rohit Shama, again, I don't want to echo what Tuffer says, But I really think Rohit Sharma is that calming presence in the dressing room, that calming presence with the bat in hand. And he seems ultra determined to make up for their woes in November against Australia in Ahmedabad.

Yeah, India looked like a team on a mission to me, Alex. It feels as if everyone that's got in their way, it's, look, we're messed up in Armad. You're not stopping us now. It's our turn now. And like we've been saying for the last 10 minutes, it's the two best teams, isn't it, in the final? and I think whoever players the best is going to come out on top. I'd love to see them on a belter. Both teams, they've got the batting power, haven't they?

I'd love to see them on a flat one. I don't think we're necessarily going to get that in Barbados. It'll be a little bit better than it. It has been today in Guyana, but I still think it's going to have a little bit in the surface for the bowlers. However, it might be more of a 180 plays, 180, not a 150. Although my pre-tournament pick was South Africa.

It's been looking at all the way. Yeah, there's some degree of vindication if South Africa were to pull what would be an upset because I think they're a marvellous team who deserves the success. You've been saying it all along in fairness. I've been saying it since 2004, for me. Yeah, we've all been saying in 99, Tuffers. It's one of those, isn't it? But just finally from you, Phil Tuff, Norton.

How will we look back on England's campaign in the fullness of time? If India go on and win this, do you think they can look back and think, you know, we were beaten by an exceptional team and actually perhaps this was a little bit of a reminder that there's work to do. You've summed it up beautifully there, Henry. As you say, got beaten by probably the best team in the tournament on a surface which was almost like playing at home

but lots of things to do for England. They managed to get themselves into a position where they could have had a little bit of luck and gone forward but didn't manage to. So things and issues to address, I think. in the England side. They'll be disappointed. Sorry, go on Tuffers.

Yeah, no, they'll be disappointed sitting on that plane home because they found themselves in a position where they could have actually then sort of gone on and got themselves in a decent position. So I think I'm giving them a five, maybe five and a half out of ten. I think the game that they'll look back on with disappointment is that South Africa game

in the Super 8s, because if they win that, they end up on the other half of the draw. They play Afghanistan on the pitch that would have been brilliant for bowling on last night and then you're in a final and anything can happen in a final we expect the surface to be slow and stoppy which doesn't suit the way that england play but but yeah you throw the chips in the air and see how they fall on on a on the day of a final when anyone can win it i've not got much to add the lads have nailed it there you go you can't argue with that thank you very much phil toffnell

alex artley step and finn we know our world cut final it is going to be india against south Africa on Saturday morning Barbados time 1030 start our coverage begins UK time at 315 on five sports extra and BBC sounds England's tournament comes to an end they've been beaten heavily 68 runs the margin of victory in Guyana chasing 172 bowled out for 103 they won't make it back-to-back titles they've had moments in this competition they've had some disappointing ones in there as well and none more so than heading out of the tournament against an India side who have a chance to lift an ICC trophy for the first time in over a decade. As for South Africa, well, they've waited so, so long for the opportunity in a final. They've got it now up against India promises to be a fascinating final when we bring it to you on Saturday afternoon. Thank you again to Phil, to Alex, to Stephen Finn. We'll speak to you again soon. This is the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. coming. More twists, more

turn. From June the 10th, the Football Daily podcast turns its full attention to the international stage. It'll be your daily dose of Euroanalysis, debate and news as we bring you all the action with some of the biggest names in the game from Germany.

Here he goes with the free king. It's all! We'll be at the heart of both the England and Scotland camps, bringing you exclusive interviews with the players and managers throughout the tournament. Nobody saw this coming. So join us and get ready for are Euros like no other on the Football Daily.

Listen on BBC Sounds.