Test Match Special - Temba Bavuma: Breaking Barriers

Episode Date: June 10, 2025

South Africa captain Temba Bavuma opens up to Alison Mitchell ahead of South Africa’s World Test Championship final against Australia. They talk about his position as captain and role model, especially as the first black African to score a Test century for South Africa, but also talk about how they take inspiration from the Springboks, his desire to play more Test cricket, his relationship with his coach, his advocacy for stem cell research, and what it’ll be like working with Stuart Broad ahead of the final…

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you're getting a fair exchange rate with no extra markups. Be smart. Join the 15 million customers who choose Wise. Download the Wise app today or visit Wise.com. T's and C's and C's Apply. from BBC Radio 5 Live. Hello, I'm Alison Mitchell and welcome to the Test Match Special podcast ahead of the World Test Championship Final between Australia and South Africa at Lords, a match you can hear on TMS

on five sports extra in the UK, on ABC in Australia and worldwide via the ICC website. Timber Bovuma is no ordinary cricket captain. He was already the first black African to score a test century for South Africa, but now, as Kempahoeuvre, captain, he's fully aware of his position as a role model and of what and who he represents.

In a wide-ranging interview with him ahead of the final, I've spoken to him about the weight his position carries, about his relationship with his coach, about his advocacy for stem cell research, his love of test cricket, how South Africa are taking inspiration from the spring box, and what it'll be like working with Stuart Broad ahead of the final. from BBC Radio 5 Live. Timber, thanks so much for being with us. Really good to see you. First of all, actually, are you all right?

Were you very worried injury-wise in the lead-up to the World Test Championship because our elbow flared up again, didn't it, a little while back? Yeah, all is good at this moment. Quite confident in the body, no issues, no concern. So, yeah, all is good. Well, well-rested as well.

Had a nice break after the season. So, yeah, all good to go. Fabulous. Can you put into context the scale of this World Test Championship final for cricket South Africa and indeed the country as a whole? Yeah, I think it's massive, not just for the players, for the country. I think obviously as a sport, loving country, cricket, cricket mad country. We always looking for something to smile at, and, you know, we have an opportunity of doing that as a team.

I think also we have another opportunity to kind of, you know, keep throwing our name of the hat in terms of one of the leading cricketing nations out in the country. You know, we're not blessed with the opportunity of playing a lot of games. So whenever we do get the opportunity, we want to be putting our best foot forward and we want to make it attractive for the other bigger teams to play against us. So I think, you know, us being in the final will go a long way in doing that. us also going over the way, over the line will really, you know, push us to be seen as one of the top cricketing nations in the world. And you're drawing upon the experiences of Stuart Broad

to help you out for, is it a day he's joining you for? How has that come about that he'll be joining you? Yeah, he'll be joining us for one of the days when we're at loads. I think it's always nice to get intel from local guys. I think a guy like Stuart Broad, I mean, we've seen what is done for England. And we see also how successful he's been against South Africa. So I guess to just kind of tap into his brain to see what are the intricacies of playing against Australia that he found playing against Lord and seeing how we can kind of add that to our way of doing things. How did that idea come about to pick Stuart in particular? I think that was the coach. Conrad. That was his idea. Look, his brain is always taking over. Like I said, you know, a guy who obviously has experience of being in these conditions. A guy who's also had experience against Australia and being successful. Tell me about Cahiso Rabada coming back from suspension now into your team for this World Test Championship final. He tested positive for recreational drugs back in January at the SA 20. And I know that upon leaving,

for the UK, he said that he owes it to his teammates to talk to you about what happened. Has he done so now as you approach this final? Yeah, we've had a chat, actually a chat with KG. I guess he's opened up to the team, reiterated his stance, his apology for what he's done. And yeah, I just reiterated the fact that you want to allow to get the better of him. and that he'll still be the person that we're going to be. So, I mean, we've had the opportunity to speak to the media. It did that back home.

And I think as a team, you know, I can say that it hasn't derailed us in terms of our efforts and what we're here to do in the UK. And, you know, like everyone, will keep supporting the guy as much as we can. I think we are well set as a team to be in the best possible state to play our best cricket and that's what we like to focus on but yeah I think he's in good he's in good spurts

he's smiling every day cracking jokes like you normally does so you know all looks good with him Timber can I take you back to talk about your personal journey because from the boy from Langer Township who has now become the captain

of your country do you feel an even greater sense that you know whenever you walk out now you represent more than your country when you lead the team out as captain. Yeah, I mean, look, that's something that I've really had to embrace as a guy who made it onto the international scene. I learned quite quickly that it wasn't just about me having a passion for the game and working hard enough to get to where I am.

I meant a lot more than that. I think I've confessed several times that it was quite a difficult prospect to kind of embrace or accept the baggage, the pressure, but probably the expectation that it came with it, the criticism as well that came from it. But I think probably in my older years, I've kind of found it mentally a lot more easier for me, for me to deal with. So as much as I acknowledge the responsibility, the expectation, it is not as burdensome as a bit. it was when I first started playing international cricket. I know in the past you've said that you modelled your game on Satchin Tandulka.

Is that partly his cricket, but also partly the expectation that he carried on his shoulders for his own reasons in all of his appearances for India? Yeah, I think it was more just, I mean, I enjoy his technique, how he went about his bedding. Also, where I was from in Lange, affectionately, the guys would call me that, probably because because of the stature. So I always kind of grew up, grew up with that. My uncles would always push me to try and model my game around him.

They played cricket at the time that they could. So that's where it kind of came about. And then obviously the more you get into the game, the more you appreciate, you know, the player for his ability to perform the way he did, albeit the type of pressure, an expectation that he had. I can only imagine how he went about his business I think if I were to meet him again

now being a lot more older that would be probably one of the questions that I would like to understand how he was able to still continue on with his game irrespective of everything that was happening around him That expectation that you carry

is of a different type of nature I remember, I feel very fortunate I was at Newlands in January 2016 Tembo Bovuma on 9th 96. Not out. The field scattered in the leg side particularly. Finns on his way and he boils to him. He's going to get it here with an edge down through third man and Tembo Bufuma becomes the first black African cricket for South Africa to score 100 in a test match and that is massively significant for cricket in this country. I'm looking at a picture there of his father who's jubilant in the crowd. He gets his teammate there a great long hug.

He's being undemonstrative, really. He's got his helmet off. And in size, he's a small man, but in terms of stature now as a cricketer, that's a huge step. That will do wonders, one hopes, for cricket in this country. What are your memories of that 100, of that moment,

and what did it do for you at that time? I think my first emotion, to be honest, was at the fact that I just, scored my first 100 as an international cricketer. I think that's always something that kind of hangs over you as a young cricketer trying to make your mark at any level. So a lot of my emotion was around that. The fact that my family was there, my parents, my sister, my brother, my late cousin, they were there. It's not every day that they would be, that they would be would be present in any of my games.

I think also, yeah, seeing the many cricket kids. I think that's one thing that I noticed while I was bedding. So most of those kids, some of those kids at least came from, came from Lange. And I could hear them chanting my name. And I guess the way they were saying it, I could tell that they were from Langer. And I think that there was almost like a realization

for me that, you know, one day, I was also one of those kids where we'd taken from a pass from Langa, go to Newland Stadium, wait for opportunity when it was lunch and tea time to kind of run on the field. I just dreamed to be there. So I think that was one of the realizations. And then obviously around the significance of it all, which I kind of learned after the occasion, the significance considering our history, all the effort and sacrifices and struggles that people went through before me so that I could have that opportunity.

And again, that's significance of it because it's set against the backdrop of transformation in South African cricket. And again, I went back to an article from that time. And one of the lines was, because of this innings, Timber Bovuma depicted as a quota cricketer no longer. That speaks volumes for what you had to deal with at that time.

But also, it wasn't quite as simple as that, was it? Yeah, I mean, at that time, like I said, you know, like the pressures that I was dealing with was, at least that I felt at that time, was just of a young guy trying to make it at international level. Then, by the mere fact that I was the first black African cricketer, you know, that brought a different narrative and connotation to it, you know. I mean I think being the first of a lot of things comes with misunderstanding at times and it comes with criticism and sometimes unwarranted criticism and I mean I haven't been I haven't been short I haven't been short of that yeah I mean if I think of the first couple of games I played test cricket a debut I made against played the first two against West Indies never scored didn't score runs there

I think I've got 10 and 15 in those two matches. Then I think the knives were out, you know, and then, you know, as players of colour, when things are not good, when you haven't scored runs or taken wickets, you face that type of criticism, you know, where you are labelled as a court of player, which obviously has a negative connotation too. Look, I guess when I scored the 100, I don't think it really dispel that, you know, because I think as players we all go through runs of poor form that's just how the game is

that's just how being a better is where you fail more than you more than you succeed so I mean that's something that you always you come to expect it's not nice when you have to deal with it but I think the longer the longer you kind of survive within international cricket within the poitiers you kind of grow that thick skin of not allowing it to really become a thing. So I think that never really goes away.

I mean, I think of now where I have within my test career, having been around for 10 years, you know, if you don't perform well, you're going to have to deal with those type of things. So I guess that's the unsavory side of it all. But I think the expectation and pressure that it comes with Being a black African cricketer within that system, within the team, I think there's a lot of opportunity and privilege that comes with that. Tell me a bit about the relationship you have with your coach, Shikri Konrad,

because he came in, made you captain. You've scored these 300 that's helped the team qualify for the World Test Championship final. But what is your relationship? What makes it so special, so tight? Yeah, we've got them quite well. Probably the most important relationship, I think, in a team has to be the captain and coach. Those two individuals have to see eye to high. They have to be on the same page in every way.

I think Chukhya, I mean, he came in at a time where the test team, we weren't in a great place. And he took a view on me as a player. Then when he told me that I'd be the captain, my first question in two, him was why because I think in the past you know I kind of just accepted it because it was I felt it was this this honor and privilege that you just had to accept when you're given and when you know he unequivocally said that I think you're the best player in the team and you're the best person to lead it you know that gave me a lot of confidence and comfort to kind of you know fully step into those shoes and and do the role that is given me

the responsibility to do and look i think in a lot of ways has become a farther figure um for a lot of us within our team um he's become a space where we can speak to things that truly affect us internally you know um and i think that's really really helped a lot of us within within the red ball space to to play our best cricket um so yeah that relationship has been a good one I think I'm always very to overplay the relationship. I mean, the coach, I mean, now is the three-formate coach. You know, he could turn tomorrow and say, Timber, you know, I don't want you as my white book captain.

So I'm always, I'm always worried of that. But, yeah, I enjoy my time with Shukry. And hopefully we can achieve a lot together. So what sort of captain leader would you say you are if you had to describe? your style and the i guess what you like to create for your teammates in the dressing room i think i remember one of the the conversations i had with dean when i came in as test captain's see what what advice he gives to me and he simply said just make sure that your game is is in order don't don't compromise too much on that whereas now as as the captain i mean

there's a lot more i mean there will always be the essence of putting the team first but I really try and make sure that my game is in order. I have no one can point figures at there and then try to empower guys around me. I understand that certain guys within the team through them being within the team for a while, your senior players, they'll be able to reach into circles that I can't. There are also certain strengths that I don't have.

So it's kind of allowing those guys to lead within those spaces. But also making sure that you're quite clear as to what the vision is within the team and you hold everyone accountable, accountable to that. So it really becomes almost like a collective leadership style and just freeing up the guys really to be themselves and to play their best cricket. Always make sure that the main thing is the main thing. I think in South Africa, there's a lot that happens back home, good and bad. and it's easy to kind of get sucked into all the noise that comes about.

But, you know, to find a way that us as a group that we just stick to the cricket, I think that's something that, especially within this test team, that has allowed us to get to the point. You've mentioned perspective, Tember, and I notice on social media you're posting quite a bit to raise awareness around blood cancer and research into stem cell. I just wondered, is there any personal connection with that, or is it a charity that you're simply involved in? Yeah, so, I mean, the approach came through, I guess, the work that I do through my own foundation. And I think it was quite interesting, learning about it.

And, I mean, as a foundation, you know, social lending a voice or helping hand to social initiatives or social ills that perfect. our communities that's something that we do i started to work with the organization dkms africa like i said it was quite interesting learning about it all and then when i started sharing it on my social media only there did i learn that it was actually something personal um so my uncle and my mother they got in touch with me when they learned that i was partnering it and they said that our i guess she'd be my grandmother, she passed away then from leukemia, which is obviously a blood cancer disorder. And I think in a lot of ways, you know, within the family, it was something that they kind of brushed under the carpet, never spoke about it. And I guess me, you know, putting my voice behind it,

made it easier for them to kind of deal with those wounds or those scars that they had. And I think also kind of gave you a little bit of insight into the misconceptions within, at least my black culture that we can speak about, where things like blood cancer that we are not well informed about, we always blame it on to, we don't blame it on science, but we blame it on other reason behind it is not because of science, you know. It will have to do with something cultural or spiritual. but I think once you, yeah, yeah, cultural and spiritual aspects. But I guess me raising that awareness, got them to kind of learn a little bit more about it and to, I think, almost kind of just help them, you know, let go of whatever emotion or burden that they've been carrying. So, yeah, that's the personal connection, personal connection to it.

very different to what I've got involved in. But yeah, quite humbling as well. I've got to meet a young boy. He's 13 years old. And he's dealing with blood cancer. And I guess you kind of think about it from a sportsman's point of view where, you know, for us winning and losing is everything. There's a boy who's kind of battling every day to kind of keep going.

And he still sees some sort of joy, you know, within his. life. So again, it strengthens that perspective on what's really important. And you're a dad as well, so I'm sure there's also greater resonance for youngsters suffering. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that boy, Imminati is the name of the boy with the blood with the blood cancer disorder. He's, like I said, he's 13. I've got a young one who was just under two years. Immunati, he's not able to get a stem cell donor. That's part of the awareness, right, is to encourage people to register as stem cell donors and you kind of you don't want to think about it but you think if if your child was in that situation where he wasn't able to get help because I guess there's not

enough people within the registry database how that would go about so yeah I mean people are dealing with real things out there you know we we're kind of worrying about catching a cricket ball and hitting it well enough you know people are dealing with real things out there But then I'm sure your performances also give a lot of people a lot of joy and there's a lot of joy in pride being taken and you being in this World Test Championship final. I also wanted to ask you about Shukhri Konrad, I gather, went to visit the Spring Box coach Razia Erasmus in the lead-up.

We saw that we've been pulling his leg and asking who called who for the visit. And the answer? He says that Rassi was the one that approached him first. we're not too sure about that one but i think yeah i think for him you know i guess it's always nice to to kind of pick the brain of someone else who i guess has the same responsibility in a different sporting code to see what similarities there are and i guess to how you can learn especially with the way that cricket is going now where there's so much cricket and you're playing t20 cricket you're playing test cricket you play one-day cricket outside of that guys are playing in the leagues

it puts a lot of pressure on the guy's bodies and it's putting a lot more on guys being physically fit and i guess us as a team we're kind of we're trying to think how we can best deal with it deal with the whole changing dynamic so yeah i think there were great insights from there also from the springbox i think why we love the spring box so much why we respect them so much is their ability to to impression impressions always always come out on top and i mean that's something that we'd love to obviously feed off as a team, seeing where we are now. Yeah, and hopefully all of that can kind of rub on onto us. Yeah, because what was their slogan for the 2019 World Cup,

was stronger together, wasn't it? And does that particularly resonate than the one-team, one-country slogan as well? Yeah, stronger together. I guess it evokes a lot more emotions. I think rugby is obviously a lot more intense. There's all of that where cricket isn't really as intense or in your face as rugby. But I think the collective effort behind it all, one of the things the coach mentioned with regards to rugby is around this election and how for them they don't, no one knows who's in the team until the actual team meeting, which is generally the day before the game. Whereas in cricket, you know, there's sometimes there's situations where, you know, guys want to get told why they're not playing.

And I think that can be energy-sapping, you know, where now you've got to find nice ways or palatable ways to tell the player why he's not playing. Where within the rugby space, you deal with their emotions right there in front of everyone. And I think that really shows what type of person you are. you know so I think that in terms of that stronger collective I think that that really speaks to that and like I said I'm not saying we're going to now start announcing the team in front of everyone day before yeah but I think you just get to get an understanding of their mindset as a as a collective and what about you then Timber because you're 35 years old you said back in February that you're looking for that happy ending to your career.

Could a win in the World Test Championship be that happy ending, or is there still a lot more you want to keep striving for? Yeah, I think it can be part of it. Look, I'm happy with where my body is at. And I think as long as my form is still there, I'd still like to keep playing as long as I can. So, yeah, hopefully it can be a part of, a part of the story. And I think even for this team, you know, we're on a journey as a test team and, you know, I always kind of say to the guys, you know, I'd like us to kind of look back after three, four years, look at everything that we've done. And only at that point do we start judging what we've done as a team. But from a personal point of view, it would definitely be a highlight in my career. The fact that just being there within the final at-laws against Australia, it doesn't, yeah, it doesn't feel like it gets, it

doesn't feel like it gets better than that and do you need to be playing more test cricket as a nation finally yes please we'd love that but i think we know the responsibilities of as the players that we've got to keep playing good cricket we've got and that's the only way that we'll make it attractive for for all the other bigger nations to to want to play against us so i think this season is a big is a big season for us playing against pakistan and india away their next here. We've got Australian, India. I think those give us proper opportunities to stake our claim

as one of the top nations in the world. But yes, we'd love to be playing more Tis Cricket. Temba, absolute pleasure to speak to you. Good luck for everything that is ahead. Thanks for being with us. Thank you, Alison. Appreciate it.

This is the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Well, you can read more about that interview with Temba Bhuma. on the BBC Sport website and app. Don't forget, Test Match Special will have commentary on the final from 10 a.m. UK time on Wednesday morning.

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